Chats With Susan, A Story About Adoption

In this podcast, we talk about a specific topic that explores self awareness, and dive into Michelle's life and book a Gently Guided Path for Adoptees. A great resource book, and topic for people interested in adopting or family who already have adopted.

Transcript

Hi,

Everyone.

So a new day,

A new year,

I yeah,

Wherever we are,

Always a new day in your life anyway,

Because you can have it be brand new in every single moment.

So I'm just saying that up front,

This author that I'm going to have a conversation with,

I said to her earlier,

Before we started recording,

Reading through her book,

It's,

It's,

It's a specific topic book,

Which you'll understand in a few minutes.

But in reading through it,

She has amazing,

Beautiful exercises that I would do for myself.

In fact,

I'm going back and asking some of the questions she asked,

And then has you do writing because y'all know,

I love to write.

But so it's so it is a specific topic.

But I think it's a beautiful self awareness book that guides individuals into the while she uses the word transparency,

A lot the transparency of their inner truth.

So the book is called Let Us Be Greater,

A gentle guided path to healing for adoptees.

And I want to welcome Michelle Madrid,

Michelle,

Thanks for joining me.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm honored to be with you today.

Yeah,

So when,

Um,

When this book came across my desk,

Michelle,

And it was a and it's about adoption,

Adopt healing practices for adoptees.

And I actually have a sense it's also a great resource book for families that are considering adoption to know how to help the new individual really know themselves.

So this,

Tell us a bit about your story,

Michelle,

That has led you to be greater,

The greater you?

Oh,

Thank you.

That is a beautiful question.

And I so appreciate your thoughtful and supportive words.

Well,

My story started in the United Kingdom.

I am the daughter of first parents,

An English mom and a Spanish father.

My mom was married with three children,

And had an affair with my father.

And I am the product of that affair.

And there was,

You know,

So,

So many challenges swirling around this,

This chapter in my life in my mom's life and my father's life and in the lives of bio siblings,

Who did not know me at the time did not know of me at the time.

But ultimately,

My first mom made the decision to bring me into the world to carry me to term.

And then beyond that,

The decision was made to place me in foster care.

And so I was placed in foster care,

My foster records say,

You know,

That my mom took me to my foster care on a cold morning,

The chimney at the foster home was not working,

It was cold in England and chaotic with,

You know,

Men working around trying to fix the fix the chimney.

Yet my mom left me there amid as it says in my foster records,

The chaos in the cold.

And she walked away and exited my life as did my bio father.

And I think there was something in that moment,

On a cellular level,

In my nervous system,

That felt very much this sense of the cold,

The chaos,

The severing of that moment.

And I was left in foster care.

And there were,

You know,

Judgments made,

As can happen,

Even when you're just a young,

Tender,

Innocent child about your potential and your worth.

And certainly that happened.

It's documented in my foster records,

Social workers said I was difficult to place,

I would be difficult to place.

I was dark like my Spanish father,

Even odd looking,

Strange looking,

They said,

And the unwanted illegitimate daughter of the two.

And yet,

An American family did step in.

And they were looking for a little girl,

They had two sons of their own,

They adopted me.

And that shift,

That transition of the world that I knew,

Began.

And I was ultimately brought to the US to be raised inside of an adoptive home that was not perfect,

Because no family is perfect.

Right?

We know that.

Right.

I had an adoptive father who struggled with alcoholism.

And I felt not connected in many ways to him emotionally,

It felt unsafe.

Emotionally,

In that home,

There was verbal and emotional abuse that happened.

My mom,

My mother,

And I,

My adoptive mother and I were close.

I felt very much the protector of my mother,

Very loyal to to my mother in that way.

And I would just say that I grew up with a sense of living somehow existing,

Surviving between two identities,

Two worlds,

I didn't know how to bridge those two things.

And as an adoptee,

When I would try to talk with my mom,

My mother,

In America about the confusion that I felt,

The sense of sadness and loss,

She would say,

Just be grateful.

I saved you from a very hard place,

Just move forward.

And,

You know,

And so and on the other side of that,

Once I reunited with my bio mom,

As a teenager,

She would always say just stiff upper lip love stiff upper lip.

And so there was a lot of avoidance going on of the emotions that I felt the hurts that were living inside of me and a lot of pretending that like they didn't exist.

And I will just say from there,

The journey began.

When I,

You know,

I can remember college,

I went to college in New York,

And I began to have these awakenings of the need to find me,

Like I was somehow lost within myself.

And I needed to find me an authenticity,

The real me and I needed to connect to something that felt very much lost in my life as an adoptee as a young woman.

And I think that's when the journey sort of embarked for me of just an awareness and awakening that somehow I had been disconnected from a sense of self that was not healthy and would never leave me lead me to a place of wholeness if I did not tend to it properly.

Right.

So Michelle,

Let me let me just backtrack a little bit for for me to have clarity.

So when you when your birth mother delivered you to your adopted,

Or your foster care,

How old were you?

Actually,

Were you like,

A newborn or my mom had me for just a few short weeks,

About two months,

And she knitted clothes for me,

Baby clothes for me,

And she did care for me.

And then she left me in the care of my foster mom.

Okay.

And then when you were adopted by your American family,

How old were you?

I was just entering my toddler chapter of life.

And,

You know,

Once I was adopted,

I became no longer Julia Dawn,

That was the name that my first mom had given me,

I became Michelle Anne.

And that was a whole sort of other layering,

You know,

Really,

Before I could speak to that feeling that severing of the first identity and becoming this,

This different person within new identity,

New family and new country,

New culture.

Yeah.

So in your book,

You talk about the,

That the whole identity begins in the womb,

That there's energy in the womb that and that a child can feel in the external world.

So,

Because it was interesting to me to just read that,

Because I think a lot of people have an assumption that well,

It's just a baby or they're,

They're,

They can't really speak.

So really,

Are they thinking or whatever that,

You know,

Story is.

But there is an identity that forms as the embryo is for me.

Yes.

And I do believe that I always had this feeling that our stories begin in the womb,

Adopted or not.

And there's science that is now backing this,

You know,

That we are not mother and child while in the womb,

We are mother child,

We are one.

And so the,

The child in the womb,

Feels and experiences what the mother is going through in the world.

And so we enter the world with a lot of information.

There's a book by Dr.

Bruce Lipton called the biology of belief that has really helped me sort of sort through this,

Just intuitive knowing that I feel like I've always had.

And I do believe that I felt my mother's struggle while I was in her womb.

And I do believe that there were,

You know,

Sort of limited a sense of programming that was put in place,

Where I came into the world,

Just feeling like the world is a very fragile place.

And that perhaps I wasn't fully wanted,

Fully loved in this world that I've been delivered into.

And I think it's really important to know when you are considering adoption,

If you are adopted,

That we do enter the world with information.

And we have to at some point,

Ask ourselves,

Is the programming I've been programmed with,

Or the beliefs that I believe are the thoughts that I'm thinking serving me toward living my,

You know,

My highest level of good in this life.

And if not doing the work of shifting that examining that excavating those places and,

And transforming limiting belief into limitless truth,

As I like to say,

But there's no doubt that I came into the world feeling the struggle that my mother was was struggling through,

I felt her pain.

I know that because,

You know,

Even when I was placed in foster care,

In my records,

It says that I lost a good amount of weight as a baby,

But nothing was wrong with me,

It said.

And I'm,

And I read that.

And I've read that many,

Many times over.

And I've sat in stillness with that line,

Nothing's wrong with her.

How could it?

How could anything be wrong?

She's just a baby.

What could she possibly,

You know,

What could she know?

But the fact of the matter is,

I think everything was wrong in that moment was I was a baby who knew on a cellular level that her mother had left.

And I think that the loss that the tremendous loss of weight at that time,

Was my processing of a grief that I felt inside of me that I could not verbalize,

Right?

It was swirling around inside of me.

And I do believe that it was reflected in that that weight losses as a baby,

I was grieving.

I didn't know it.

No one knew it.

You know,

I couldn't verbalize that.

But that's what was going on.

And in your book,

Let Us Be Greater,

You say,

Many adoptees have not been permitted to openly grieve their loss.

Society is only just beginning to understand what adoptees have always known,

That adoption is rooted in loss,

That one family must come apart for another family to come together.

One relationship must go through a severing for another relationship to be sewn.

Michelle,

That's like,

Yeah,

It just that just kicked me in the gut.

And,

And,

But,

But and,

And also,

With what you just described about emotional feeling as an embryo and belief systems already being laid down,

It actually gives me because I'm always on a not always,

But I dip into feeling unworthy.

And I'm not and I'm not adopted.

You know,

But I and so you just like,

Gave me another little tidbit of why I still dip there.

Even though I've worked it,

I've released it,

I've written a book about it,

You know,

I still go there.

And it's in it.

And it makes sense.

It was programming that from the emotional state of the mother,

Which is really important,

I think,

For young women who are considering being coming pregnant,

To be aware that from the minute you conceive,

You are now informing this unborn,

About to be newborn,

Child of how to deal with the world.

And so I think it's important to have your shit together,

Everybody,

Before you get pregnant.

Let me just say that.

Oh,

I just had tingles when you said that,

Because it's so true.

It's so it's so very true.

Because,

You know,

I do believe that that sets just such a powerful setting of how we come into the world,

How safe we feel the world is,

And also our place and our promise in this world.

And it's it is very important to be aware of that.

And to make sure that your surroundings,

While your child is developing inside of you that that in that an internal garden of who you are is being nourished.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect,

We all have work to do.

But an awareness of how powerful that is for your child,

Your unborn child,

And to really nurture the soil of who you are,

As a woman,

As a mother,

As a human being,

A soul,

Moving through this physical experience to nurture what is waiting for us within,

And to make sure that you're doing the tender,

Loving,

Compassionate work of giving yourself all the nourishment you need to grow into who you're here to be.

But also,

When we are looking at becoming parents that we're able to offer that to our children,

In utero,

And,

You know,

And beyond,

In utero and beyond.

Yeah.

So okay,

So let's go back to your book,

Because you you mentioned that there's eight pain points that adoptees experience,

And some of them don't necessarily experience all eight.

But,

Um,

And again,

Michelle,

I'm saying this,

You guys,

Because in reading,

I'm like,

Oh,

I got that pain point.

Oh,

I got that pain point.

Oh,

And again,

With your exercises later,

We'll get to those.

But let's talk about the eight pain points.

You know,

It was doing an interview last night,

And the gentleman said,

I'm not adopted,

But I feel these and I said,

Well,

You know,

I think that there are at least a million gazillion ways that this life experience can leave us feeling disconnected from ourselves rejected,

Abandoned,

And,

You know,

Sometimes feeling shattered and left on the floor.

And so I think that when we can lean into one another,

And here are unique individual experiences,

We're able to find so much common ground.

And,

And I appreciate you saying that these pain points have resonated with you as well,

At least some of them for adoptees,

Because I have written this book.

Within that framing,

The pain points are the pain of feeling unwelcome in the world,

The pain of broken bonds and a deep sense of loss,

The pain of being denied access to truth,

The pain of familial rejection that could be from either bio family side or adoptive family side,

And words that harm the pain of distrust,

The pain of banished biology,

The pain of pleasing others versus pleasing the self,

This has been a big one for me,

And the pain of lack of transparency and acceptance.

So those are the eight points of pain that I moved through and ultimately through the exercises,

Approaches,

Meditations,

Etc.

Awakenings in the book,

We,

We hope to and work to transform those points of pain into points of light for the reader.

Yeah,

I,

And you have little pauses in the book,

Where I just want to read this one,

I it's still toward the beginning of the book,

But you have the pause,

And it says adoptee awakening,

Adoptees stories begin in the womb,

Which we've talked about adoptees have a perceived sense of the world and their place in it before they even take their first breath,

Adoptees enter the world with a great deal of information,

Which is important for the individual to know.

And then another one that I earmarked is adoptee awakening,

Healing is ancestral work.

What you heal for yourself,

You heal for your entire family line,

Past,

Present and future.

The process of healing your life as an adoptee is just that powerful.

And,

And I talked about this,

This has been my personal process of healing ancestral lines.

And and so it,

I love that you had this in your book,

That it doesn't matter if you know your family of origin or not,

The work,

The inner work that we all do individually,

To really know ourselves,

Like you were talking about and nourish ourselves.

And,

And it just heals everyone.

It heals your family line.

It's,

It's,

And I know that to be true.

I've experienced it.

So to let them know,

I think it would be powerful to as an adoptee to say,

Well,

Even if I don't know them,

I still can be useful,

I still can give,

And I can give love,

Even though maybe I didn't feel that I was receiving that.

I think that's so powerful,

Michelle.

No,

Thank you.

And you know,

I am a big believer in we cannot give to others what we have yet to give to ourselves.

And so I had to make the decision at some point in my life,

That the pain stops here,

The suffering stops here,

Right?

All hands up,

Because I don't want to carry that pain and suffering forward into future generations.

And some of the most powerful work that I've done on my own with,

You know,

Alternative therapies has been that as you know,

One that I just comes to my mind is somatic therapy session that I had where I literally spoke to my ancestors.

And it started with my bio family,

I really felt like I needed to heal my bio family line,

That ancestral line,

And unite them.

And I,

You know,

Envisioned them starting with my first parents,

And then,

You know,

Their parents and on and on and on.

And I remember saying during this session,

You know,

I forgive you,

I forgive myself,

I am ready to lead us forward.

In this healing process,

It stops with me.

And if I am the one chosen to make this shift,

Let it be so and then I turn my back.

And I imagine their hands on my shoulders,

With my first mom,

My first father,

And,

And then their parents and,

And,

And reaching back and back and back into our ancestral line.

And just this powerful sense of me leading the way,

As this,

This soul who's been brought here,

As a catalyst for healing my ancestral line,

And the power of that,

And the love that I felt that I'm not alone.

And I actually feel my ancestors with me,

All that right now,

As I'm speaking,

I feel them around me,

I think it's such a thin veil between here and there.

Yeah.

And I,

I really imagine it as that,

That they are with me.

And that although I can't clearly see them and pull back the veil,

I can experience them within myself,

Because the truth of the matter is they pulse within my veins,

They are that close.

And that's what I hope adoptees or anyone can really take in,

That we are called to heal the wounds of past,

So that we don't bring them into the present and the future.

And that is important work.

And indeed,

I think it is.

It's a life affirming gift to give to ourselves and all those we love.

And it's timely,

It's timely with what is happening.

And you said you came into the chaos and a cold,

But it's what's happening right now,

Everybody,

There's chaos,

There is a coldness towards others.

And,

And what you just described,

Michelle is so important for us to unite and move together as a humanity.

So,

So it who's Oh,

My gosh,

Who I often ask myself this.

And when I work with clients,

Who's to say that your life,

Who could ever say that your life doesn't have meaning,

Wasn't on purpose,

That you were brought here for whatever it is,

In how you interact in relationship with others,

To to enlighten others,

Or,

Or,

Like you're talking,

We're talking about enlighten ourselves from the inside out to go,

Oh,

I am,

I'm on my soul is here to bring this light to be more me that to you talk about the becoming,

Feeling internally worthy,

And,

And being transparent,

And in order to be transparent,

Which,

Which to me means I can see me,

I can see me,

As opposed to,

I'm going to be transparent with you.

But seeing myself,

And then you get to live more you.

I get that,

Right?

Yeah,

Yes,

You did.

Yes,

That self transparency,

Which leads to a place of self acceptance,

I used to run as fast as I could,

From a place of transparency within,

I did not want to look at all the ways that I felt so unworthy.

Yeah,

So disposable,

So ugly and messy.

And the cause of my first parents walking away,

And the cause of my adoptive father drinking,

I was the cause of none of those things.

You know,

When we begin to see ourselves as innocent,

In all of it,

We can begin,

I think to step forward on the path of self forgiveness.

And when we do that,

We offer space to forgive others,

Because that is the most liberating gift to give to ourselves.

And then we can with love and compassion,

Look at ourselves,

And say,

You know,

I want to be transparent with myself,

I want to know myself,

I want to know the person I see in the mirror.

I really want to know,

Love,

Accept,

Embrace this person and do the work that we've been uniquely assigned in this life to do.

I cannot do that if I'm not willing to look at the messy parts,

And also to open myself to seeing the miracle in the mess.

And not just say,

Well,

That happened to me.

And so I can't grow.

I can't evolve.

I can't be loved.

I can't show love,

Give love.

No,

No,

I want to see the miracle.

Okay,

This happened.

Perhaps for me,

To me as hard as it has been,

That's hard.

It's hard.

But if I can't at least ask myself that question and explore that on my own in my own time in my own way.

Along this journey,

I don't believe I could have ever gotten to the place where I am now having written this book talking to you now feeling like a whole woman with purpose and with passion in this life.

And to say that the broken places in my story,

Oh,

My golly,

That's where the light came through.

And I have looked at those places.

And I have then put them back together in this beautiful sort of tapestry.

This this work of,

You know,

Mosaic and light and,

And truly,

I look at myself as a brand new being.

Yeah.

And I love the journey.

Now.

I didn't always love the journey,

But I sure love it now.

I and I'm so happy to hear you say that I applaud you,

Michelle,

That's,

I think that that's phenomenal,

Because it,

It does take a lot of courage and strength to,

To,

Especially in a situation like you have come from to face everything and not know,

You know,

When we face those pieces of ourselves,

Or those darkness,

Shadow things within us,

Like feeling unwanted,

And all that we don't know what we're going to find,

We don't know that there's light on the other side.

But I just want to say this to everybody,

Whether you've been adopted or not,

It's so important,

Especially right now,

Everybody to face those shadow pieces.

Because like you just said,

Michelle,

That's the only way you can,

You can create a more beautiful life that is filled with light and,

And,

And,

And made the way you I choose to make it not the way I was told,

Or the expectation that was nonverbal,

Of how I should be,

You,

We can live our life by facing that shadow.

So is it important as an adoptee to find your birth parents and face them in talking about that kind of stuff?

Is it important in order for healing?

I think it's important to speak to those places,

Whether that's face to face with bio family members are within,

You know,

Your own moment of stillness or with yourself,

I think there's,

It's so important to find safe,

Sacred space to speak to those parts of yourself.

Now,

Can I say that I had that moment with my bio mom,

I did.

I've had several moments with her.

But one of the most she passed away in 2019.

But one of the most profound,

And I write about it in the book was when I was visiting her as an adult.

And she brought me into her bedroom.

She said,

I have something to show you.

And it was the original relinquishment letter.

And I had the copy,

But I'd never seen the original one.

And the original one just hit me differently.

As I held it,

I could literally feel the,

The,

You know,

Indention on the paper where she wrote in ink her name to relinquish her rights to parent me.

And I told her that it feels different like holding this mom,

Because I literally can feel that moment,

Like moving through Wow,

Wow.

And I said,

I think we both started to cry just buckets and buckets.

And I said,

I think what happened,

It came to me in that moment,

Like just a bolt of lightning.

When you relinquished your rights to parent me,

I think I may have relinquished my rights in that moment to love me.

And my journey has been getting back to that place.

Oh,

My goodness.

I got chills.

Oh,

Yeah,

It was a very powerful moment for us.

But I had to speak that to her.

I had to be transparent and truthful in in her presence.

But most importantly,

In my presence.

And I think that that's something that could I have said that to myself in the mirror?

Yes,

I could have,

I have not,

I did not have the opportunity to have that kind of moment with my bio father,

I've had moments of connection with him via intuitives on a spiritual level.

And they've been very powerful.

But I've also journaled a lot.

And I've spoken to him in photos and those types of things.

It's so important to access that truth,

And to speak it out loud to move it through your body to process it to get it out to write it down.

Whether we have that face to face or not,

The work of doing that,

And connecting with that part of ourselves is so important for adoptees,

I think to reconnect to the truth of who they are the energy of who they right,

The truth of who we are,

Yes.

And and so this is why I also enjoy the exercises you've created,

Because they're journaling exercises with potent,

Potent questions.

And so one of them I just saw,

You you encourage the person doing the work to write a welcome to the world invitation,

I'm like gonna,

Michelle,

I'm going to use that I'm going to use it with my clients,

A welcome to the world invitation,

Because so many of us,

Whether we're adopted or not,

Especially women,

I think,

Don't feel welcomed and included.

And then you have,

And then the process is write it out,

And then read it out loud and,

And step into it.

And I love that you did that.

And I and some of your other exercises in here are just,

I just love them,

Michelle,

It's,

It's useful for everyone.

Anyone?

Oh,

My gosh,

I'm just like,

I want to just come over and hug you for a second.

Thank you so much.

I am hugging you right now from afar.

Yeah,

You know,

Welcoming ourself into our life into the fullness of living.

We so often adopted or not,

We just feel like life has caused us to stand on the sidelines of our own life.

And so this is a moment very early in the book,

To create your own welcome to the world invitation.

What's that gonna look like?

Who would be there with you?

How are you going to celebrate your life,

Your one unique,

Beautiful life?

And we don't do that.

We don't celebrate the life that we've been given.

And we are so often moved to feel so marginalized and yeah,

And disconnected from life.

And so this is a an opportunity for the reader to reconnect with the beauty that is their life.

I understand there are hard moments within life and within this experience of living.

But when we welcome ourselves into all of it,

I think it shifts the energy.

And it's a very powerful exercise.

So thank you.

Yes.

So I have another question.

Actually,

I have a couple more questions.

But um,

Okay,

Let's talk about Roe versus Wade.

Because with that being overturned,

Not more,

Okay,

In my opinion,

With the choice,

A woman could have to either carried a full term or terminate,

There's going to be a lot more children born in the world that are going to need to be adopted.

Because the woman has to just go full term because of that,

Overruling.

So,

So what would you say to someone who is in that position of having to see because this goes back to having the emotional feelings,

And you're pregnant,

You know,

And oh my god,

So the so the mom is having all these emotions of oh my god,

I'm pregnant,

And whatever that whatever the circumstances,

And it's affecting that child.

And so in even if you are going to give your child up for adoption,

You could still parent them before the birth,

Right?

Yeah,

Absolutely.

That parenting starts,

As we have discussed,

In utero,

I just think I mean,

I literally have chills as you as you share this with me,

Because I have thought about it a lot.

And I think that what we need to understand is that women are going to need us more than ever to come along their side.

And to help them and to support them.

Because the children that they are carrying are going to feel all of it.

They feel the discord,

They feel the judgment,

They feel the anger,

They feel the injustice,

Whatever side you stand on.

I just feel like we have to come together and be on the side of the child and help the mother.

Because this impacts generations to come.

Exactly.

Generations to come.

It's not just one life.

It's multiple.

So now,

Michelle,

I read that you have adopted.

So how has your healing supported you in raising your children or your child?

I am an adoptee who has adopted,

I have two children,

Who are international adoptees from Russia and Ethiopia.

And I would say that,

You know,

I didn't adopt to,

I don't see adoption as this opportunity to save a child or,

You know,

I that's not at all or to feel fill some empty space inside of myself,

I,

I chose adoption,

It came to me very organically,

I followed my intuition.

And at the very end of the day,

I will tell you that I'm able to look at my children and say,

I understand.

I honor your first parents,

I know that what you've been through is hard,

It's challenging those earliest chapters.

I know that there is loss that brought us together.

I want us to always be able to talk about that loss.

I want to support you in being you and whatever that looks like for you.

I am not here to narrate your life story.

I'm not here to tell you who you are going to be.

I am literally,

Deeply,

Profoundly blessed to be able to walk along your side,

As that unfolding happens.

And as we walk together,

We walk with your ancestors by our side as well.

And so there was an honoring of their story,

Their journey,

Their ancestral lines,

Their countries,

Their culture,

That must happen.

And I believe that that has been so beautiful to offer them and I only could offer to offer it to them because I did the work to offer it to myself.

Yes.

And I'm more aware of that profound and innate need.

They need that from me.

We are shared family and I share in their beautiful Ethiopian and Russian cultures and we celebrate that.

And we have a multicultural family that at its root is built on the honoring of diversity and the profound beauty of inclusion.

Oh my god,

I want you to be my mom,

Michelle.

Oh my god.

Oh,

No,

I mean it because man that's if every child could have that kind of aware parent,

Whether or not you're adopted,

It just would it just my god,

We wouldn't we wouldn't be in the chaos we're in right now.

That's my opinion.

There's a lot of chaos.

There's a lot.

Yeah.

And to honor the humanity and the cultures.

That's so fabulous.

So fabulous.

Thank you so much for doing the work you do.

Thank you for doing the work you do.

I'm so honored to sit with you in this conversation.

Well,

You're welcome.

So,

Um,

I interviewed a couple of women who went through infertility.

And they've curated a book of artwork and writings for healing the feeling of being broken and diseased.

It's now a diseased Jesus.

And,

And so and these women have adopted.

So I just want to say that out loud to everybody because if you are experiencing infertility,

And you are considering adoption,

You got to get Michelle's book.

Because it will help.

It'll help pave the way it's not even breadcrumbs.

So you can follow it'll help pave the way from what I've read.

So that you can be like Michelle just described a better parent,

A better person.

And that's why the book's called let us be greater.

Michelle Madrid,

Thank you so much for for everything for everything.

What an honor and a pleasure to be in your presence and have this conversation.

And I you and you guys,

It's just the tip of the iceberg this conversation,

But get I really encourage you get her book because it doesn't matter.

We all need healing and it doesn't matter if you were adopted or not.

The exercises and the insight and everything that Michelle's put in here from her own heart,

I think would would help anyone it would help anyone.

So is there any one thing you want to say before we close Michelle?

Yes,

I'm deeply and profoundly touched by your kind words,

Your kindness,

I have made a new beautiful illuminating friend on the stage.

So I'm very grateful.

I would just like to say I think as we close,

For those listening to remember that the light around you is great,

But the light within you is greater.

Go there and connect.

Oh my god,

I got chills again.

Thank you so so much.

So I'm just going to end with and so it is namaste