Living With Grief

Marlee welcomes Stacy Dobbs, Geriatric and Pelvic Health Occupational Therapist and mother, for a powerful conversation about living with grief and life after loss. Stacy bravely shares the story of her son, Elan, and his experience with cancer, as well as her relationship with grief and how it has evolved with time. Stacy also shares what she's learned from grief and pain. They also discuss the importance of community and self-care when living with grief!

Transcript

Welcome to the Shifting with Marley podcast.

I'm Marley.

Thank you for joining me wherever you are.

All that I ask of you,

The listener,

Is to have an open mind and an open heart.

And in return,

I offer you myself.

Today we are going to return to the topic of trauma and continue the conversation I started back in episode 12 on healing.

In this episode,

We are going to journey into the topic of grief,

Which results from some form of trauma.

For example,

Losing someone you love.

This is a heavy topic and emotional topic,

But there is power and healing available when we talk about it.

When we share our stories,

I know that grief can feel lonely,

But it can also connect us.

Grief is part of the human experience on this earth.

Grief is something we all feel every one of us at different points throughout our lives in big and small ways.

And it's something some people live with every day.

So we have to talk about it and in sharing,

Into that connection,

After all grief is really a by-product of change and change is the only constant in this life.

I'm honored to welcome Stacy Dobbs today.

Stacy is a geriatric and pelvic health occupational therapist and a mother,

And she has bravely chosen to be with us today to share her experience with grief.

Welcome Stacy.

Thank you so much.

I'm happy to be here.

I'm so grateful our paths crossed and thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Can you first share Stacy where people listening can connect with you?

Sure.

If you have any questions,

You can DM me on my Instagram at Stacy,

S T A C Y underscore Heifertin,

K E I F E R T O N.

Awesome.

So Stacy,

Let's jump right in.

I'd love to start by just giving you the space to share as much or as little of your story and your son's story as you'd like with us today.

Okay.

I already feel like I'm crying now,

So,

But you know,

That's going to happen.

So we're going to just keep going.

That's what we do.

So my husband and I decided after a deployment that we were going to try to get pregnant and he got home and I was,

We talked about it a little bit before he got home and he had had a pretty scary combat deployment at that time in Afghanistan.

And he came home and I said,

You know,

I really want to have a baby.

And he said,

Okay.

And we got pregnant that day,

I think.

Like,

Yeah,

It was like,

If you calculate the due date,

It was,

We were like,

Okay,

Let's try.

And then we were pregnant and it was kind of a shock because I didn't,

You know,

I,

I'd never had any children before,

So I didn't know how,

How long it would take.

Or I always thought it would maybe take a few months,

You know,

And we would,

But sure enough,

One month later I didn't have my period and I was I took a pregnancy test.

We were about to go to a yoga class together.

And I remember shaking coming out of the bathroom,

Like I'm pregnant and then kind of crying because I was so surprised,

Even though I knew that we were gonna,

We were trying,

It was just so fast and we were so happy and my pregnancy was really easy.

It was I felt good.

I had like just a little bit of nausea in the beginning and everybody told me I was going to have a girl and we didn't find out the sex right away.

So we were surprised when he was born.

He was born a little bit early.

We were trying to have him at the birth center,

But I went into labor at about 35 and a half weeks.

And that was just a little bit too early for the birth center.

So we ended up in an ambulance to the hospital.

So kind of from the beginning,

His birth was a little bit traumatic because we were rushed to the hospital in an ambulance.

I was like seven centimeters dilated and we got to the hospital.

They didn't have a room for me.

They put us in a surgical room.

So it was just like all lights and metal.

And so he was born there and he had some respiratory issues.

We found out he was a boy.

And so that was like the best surprise ever.

And he had some breathing trouble.

So his name is Ellen Kai.

We didn't decide that until a couple of days after he was born.

And he was in the NICU for about 18 days.

And so we just thought,

You know,

That's just something that happens.

Sometimes people,

You know,

Babies are born early.

People have children a couple of weeks early sometimes and they end up fine and things are all okay.

And then about three months later,

So that was traumatic enough.

We got to take him home and breastfeeding was quite a journey.

Never.

It was not as easy as they make you think it's going to be,

But he caught on after about a month and we did well.

And then in about three months he got RSV and he was in the hospital for a week on,

I think it was like 20 liters of oxygen.

What is RSV?

Respiratory syncytial virus.

So it's a really common virus that goes around every year,

But when little babies get it,

It can be serious.

Most of the time it's not.

But that looking back on it is now like a sign to me that something he,

You know,

Was maybe wrong with his immune system or that he was a little more vulnerable.

Yeah.

And then we kind of went about our lives and started to get like comfortable with motherhood a little bit and starting to get into a groove.

My sister-in-law got married and my husband's family came into town and my mother-in-law or I'm sorry,

My husband's aunt said that,

You know,

She noticed his eye just looked like it was bulging just a little bit.

And I had noticed that too,

But I thought,

You know,

Everybody has like features that are a little asymmetrical.

So I thought,

You know,

Maybe that's just a little thing that he has.

And we went to get his eyes looked at just to make sure that everything was okay.

And they said,

You know,

There's really nothing wrong with his vision or his eyes.

It must be something behind his eye.

And so when we heard that,

That was scary,

You know,

But I had had other friends in the breastfeeding group at the birth center that I belong to that had kids with blood vessels that were like a little bulging or something.

And so I just really kind of thought,

You know,

Let's just,

Let's just go get it checked out and find out.

So we took him to the doctor for his six month vaccinations and he palpated his abdomen and he didn't say anything,

But he said,

I need you to go to the hospital and have an ultrasound.

And so we knew like,

Oh,

You know,

We were like,

What?

We knew something was up.

So we went to the hospital,

They did the ultrasound and right away,

My father-in-law was there and he is a retired family practice doctor.

And they did the ultrasound on his abdomen and they saw a very large tumor there.

And the radiologist came down and immediately said,

You know,

This is something that,

That looks a lot like neuroblastoma.

We can't say for sure without a biopsy,

But it started on his adrenal gland on his kidney and it looks like this.

And so they had the team come down and start talking to us and it was really just so whirlwind,

Like,

Sorry,

It's just unbelievable that your six month old going in for a vaccination could have these large tumors.

And so then we knew that behind his eye,

It must've been also a tumor.

So then,

I mean,

The cascade of,

We knew not only was it cancer almost immediately,

But it was metastasized.

And so,

You know,

That,

That's just a really scary thing.

And so I remember calling my dad right away and just saying,

You know,

Elon has cancer and he's like,

What?

What do you mean?

And I said,

He,

He's,

I said,

I want you to come here right now.

And so he did and,

You know,

Just our whole family just gathered around us.

And we had this wonderful team at UNM University of New Mexico hospital that they were just the most phenomenal pediatricians we could have asked for.

We had a team of about five pediatricians and they really supported us and they helped keep us calm.

And they,

They had procedures for this type of thing and we followed it.

And as much as we could in the beginning,

The children's oncology group had a lot of research on it.

And so we started treatment almost right away and,

You know,

To give chemo to a six month old was really a scary thing to think about because of all the side effects that they can have.

And they,

They told,

You know,

They told us he,

He would probably be sterile.

So,

You know,

He,

He wouldn't be able to have children,

You know,

And,

And thinking about that.

And I was already thinking about the future of his life,

You know,

In,

In the immediate time,

Not thinking that there was even a possibility that he wouldn't live.

So we went through five rounds of chemotherapy and we went through a lot of hospital stays,

Which,

You know,

They,

They do the best they can,

I think,

With the system that they have in place,

But it's honestly not really great for families and the children that are,

That are involved.

They were doing chemo all night.

And so they would wake us up all the time.

And I already wasn't getting sleep because he didn't sleep well,

Cause he was uncomfortable.

And so when we would go to the hospital,

They would wake us up all like,

As soon as he'd go to sleep,

They'd come in and they'd be like,

We need to change this or check his,

This or that.

And I was like,

Can you please just give us some time to sleep?

And,

And a lot of times they wouldn't,

They say,

No,

We have to do this.

And I never understood why they couldn't do chemo during the day.

It was,

It seemed like a really,

A convenience thing for them.

And that was,

That was really hard on us.

The whole thing was really hard,

But that,

You know,

There,

There were a lot of things that I felt like could have been different that were,

Have been pretty easy to change that they just wouldn't because that was their procedure.

So we went through that.

We,

We ended up having to go to Texas for a what do you call it?

It's a stem cell harvesting.

So they,

They,

They harvested his stem cells and so they could later do a stem cell transplant,

Which he never ended up being able to get,

But we went there and a lot of this stuff,

My,

My husband was in school at the time and in the army.

And so he was really,

Really busy,

Was gone a lot.

And I think it was sort of a refuge for him too,

To be able to do that.

And I was with him a lot.

My in-laws,

My father-in-law and my,

My stepmother-in-law moved in with us because he's a retired physician and she's a retired nurse.

So they were really good at explaining things that maybe we didn't quite know,

You know,

And I've,

I'm in the medical field.

So most of the stuff I know,

But when it comes to your family and your kids,

When people tell you things,

And especially with trauma,

Like that part of your brain,

Your frontal lobe just shuts off and you need somebody there to,

To be able to re-explain things so that you can understand them.

I,

I think.

And that's still true today.

When anything happens medically,

I,

My,

My brain can,

Can definitely shut off,

Especially if it's in a hospital.

I ask all the doctors to write everything down because I will not remember.

So yeah,

So we went through chemo,

We went through the stem cell harvesting and we had this.

So my,

My father-in-law had connections.

His mother was a child psychologist and she had a friend at Memorial Sloan Kettering and they have all this research about their success with the high risk neuroblastoma.

And we went to see a surgeon there that he was supposed to be the best surgeon in the world for that type of cancer.

And we,

We said,

If this is the best in the world,

If this is the best there is like that,

That's what we're doing.

And we took Elon to New York city and Manhattan,

And we stayed in the Ronald McDonald house,

Which was the most amazing charity that there is.

Cause I mean,

We could have not afforded to stay in downtown Manhattan for five weeks.

We were there for five weeks.

So he had a surgery there that was an 11 hour surgery and they were trying to remove all of the tumors from his abdomen because the chemo had shrunk everything so much that he was considered in remission.

Wow.

So we were just trying to make sure that it wasn't going to spread anymore.

And I,

My husband and I have a lot of regrets and resentment and a lot of things about doing,

Making that choice because the other option was to do a little bit at a time and remove it,

Stay in New Mexico,

Do a small surgery and then maybe another one down the road.

And we chose the extensive surgery and we did,

I don't think we really understood that it would be an 11 hour surgery.

I honestly,

I mean,

I didn't,

But I remember going into consult right before his surgery with the,

With one of the physicians.

And then they were explaining to us like,

This is a life threatening surgery.

This,

He may not survive the surgery.

And I guess even before right,

We walked in the office and they did explain to us,

I had this major breakdown in the waiting room and it was like my husband,

I felt like he was holding Elon and I felt like he was embarrassed because I was crying in front of everybody,

But I didn't even want to go into the office.

And I felt,

I feel like now looking back,

That was like my sign,

But you know,

We were there,

We hadn't flown to New York city.

We were hopeful and,

And we went through with it and he had the surgery and he came out and he was on a lot of medicine,

A lot of drugs to with,

For the pain.

And so the physical therapists wouldn't really work with him very much.

He could,

They got him out of bed a couple of times,

But he,

He couldn't breastfeed because he was just so medicated.

And so they started him on like a tube feeding and then they started him.

They stopped coming really for physical therapy very much.

And I,

For,

To me,

It was like,

You're supposed to be up right after a surgery,

You know,

Like that day.

And so they started,

They put him on these really intense drugs.

Like it wasn't FENT.

I think it might've been fentanyl.

Like it was like something very strong.

And when they put him on it for like,

He was on it for maybe like five or seven days and then they just took him off of it.

And he,

He had like withdrawals and it was just really,

Really bad.

And he wasn't getting better and he developed an infection.

I think it's called pseudomonas,

Which is something that is really common in your intestines.

Like it's a common bacteria,

But if it gets out of control,

It can cause trouble just like yeast or anything like that.

It's like something in your body that gets out of control.

So his kidney started failing.

So,

And his spleen,

They had to take out,

They had to do another surgery.

So they had to take out his spleen,

Most of his spleen and his kidney and actually remove that kidney.

And we were asking a lot of questions and of the nurses and surgeons and like,

You know,

All these interventions that they were doing because they had already given him these drugs that made him withdrawal.

And they were like,

They did,

It was like,

They didn't know that he was,

That was going to happen.

And I'm like,

He's a baby,

You know,

And that happens to adults.

So why wouldn't it happen to him?

And it was really kind of disappointing,

I guess,

To see that,

To realize that in our Western medical system,

They really,

They do the best they can,

But they really don't know so much.

And we really were relying on these people to know what they were doing.

And so that was really disappointing.

And we had,

They got to a point where he was getting pretty sick and there was a doctor on call and he said,

You know,

We,

We need to intubate him.

And I said,

Are you sure,

You know,

Because that's really,

I feel like it's really invasive and people,

The medical,

A lot of medical practitioners will tell you it's not that invasive,

But I feel like you putting anything inside of your body,

It's super invasive.

And I know that it was to give him rest and to help him breathe.

But at the time I,

You know,

As a parent,

You're just like,

Is it necessary?

Is it a hundred percent necessary?

And we,

I didn't think it was out of line question,

But at one point we had this very arrogant surgeon who did his Eland surgery come in and take us in another room with,

And sit us down and say,

If you don't basically do exactly what we say,

We're going to transfer you out.

And I was already so devastated by what was going on.

I could not believe that he was talking to us that way.

I said,

I just,

I just sat there in total.

I was just totally surprised and,

And totally offended.

And I think it's because honestly,

I mean,

The more I reflect on it,

The more I think,

Like,

I read about a lot about this surgeon and he says like,

Oh,

He's,

He's only had like in his whole career,

A handful of children pass and all this stuff.

And it's,

It's devastates him,

You know,

Every time.

And he thinks of his kids when he's working on other kids.

And I'm sure that all of that is true,

But part of me wonders that if he is having a child that is he knows is not doing well,

And they transfer them to another hospital,

Then it's not actually recorded that he passed after the surgery of this,

This surgeon.

And I don't know,

I guess I've never really said that out loud to anybody,

But that is kind of what I think in my head.

I don't know what it is.

But,

And I guess it really right now doesn't matter in the long run,

But that is it's just was so it was already like so much was going on.

And we were so devastated.

And then this man was saying,

You know,

If you ask questions,

We're gonna kick you out.

Basically,

I was like,

Whoa,

Just really shocked.

But we had wonderful nurses,

And they they,

They did end up transferring us to the hospital across the street,

Because they had a machine that it was kind of like a dialysis machine,

But it was different.

I don't remember the name of it.

I don't even know if I ever knew the name of it.

I don't think they explained it because they kind of explain it in layman's terms to everybody.

They're always like,

It's a machine that's like dialysis,

It filters the blood.

And the surgeon's assistant was so wonderful.

He came in and he was like,

Most children recover on this machine and they get better.

And he gave us a lot of hope,

Which at the time I thought was a good thing.

Now that I'm,

I learned more about grief and life and things in general,

And I've read Pima Chodron's When Things Fall Apart.

And I really believe in her philosophy that that sometimes hope,

And oftentimes hope is really not a great thing.

In the long run,

I know that that's a really controversial thing to say.

But I think that hope is like giving you this expectation,

You're setting this expectation.

And if you don't meet those hopes,

Then you really are devastated.

And so I feel like giving you more of a reality check is really,

Really the honestly better way to go.

But at the time,

I think I needed that hope.

I think he knew that I needed that.

And I think there was just nothing else.

So he got transferred.

And,

You know,

The music therapist would come in and they would give him little egg shakers,

And he'd be holding the egg shaker,

Even though he was like,

His eyes would be closed.

And he'd be like,

In in sort of like a medically induced coma,

Almost like,

But so he was comfortable,

But he'd be shaking his shake egg shaker,

You know,

And,

And we so we kind of thought like,

Maybe he is getting better.

And we were there for a couple of weeks,

And we became friends with this really beautiful Indian family that shared the same room with us.

And they would make all this delicious food and bring it in and share it.

And they kept off,

They kept offering to have us come to their house,

You know,

And we just,

We just couldn't leave where I just couldn't bring myself to leave.

The doctors finally,

A few nights talked us into going back to the the Ronald McDonald house and sleeping.

And we did and we were only like two blocks from the hospital so we could walk there,

Which was really nice.

And the one one day,

You know,

They started check looking at his,

His vitals and things like that.

And they were getting a little concerning.

And then they had said,

You know,

We have we have to take him down for a CT scan.

And they took him down and they said that he had had a stroke.

And,

You know,

We could tell because his tongue started coming out of his mouth.

And I work in geriatrics,

So I know what strokes look like.

And but they told me like they had a subarachnoid hemorrhage,

And I could not hear it.

My,

My stepmother in law was there.

And I said,

What is going on?

And she said,

She said,

You know,

He has bleeding in his brain.

And I knew all that.

It's so bizarre how trauma works,

Because I knew I mean,

All my schooling is like,

Is that and I knew that,

But I couldn't hear it.

I couldn't understand it.

And so she explained it to me and until I until I understood.

And so then things happened started happening really fast.

And the neurosurgeon came down and they brought us into this room,

And my family and my dad actually had just returned back home because he was here for a few weeks just to kind of get things back in order and then he was going to come back.

So he wasn't there at the time.

And the rest of our parents were there.

And they took us into this room and the neurosurgeon said,

You know,

He has had this stroke.

And I was thinking,

You know,

I've seen a lot of people with strokes,

And they recover,

You know,

It can happen.

And so I was pretty optimistic because he was so young,

That his brain is even more plastic than the elderly people that I see regularly.

So I thought,

Okay,

You know,

What's the next plan?

And they didn't mention anything about like TPA,

Which is a medication you can administer right after a stroke that can stop bleeding.

They didn't say anything about that,

Which looking back on it,

I didn't I couldn't think of that at the time,

You know,

That was their job.

But they never mentioned that.

And I don't know if that's just not indicated for the type of stroke that he had.

But I,

When the neurosurgeon started speaking to us,

I knew that it must have been a really massive stroke,

Because she said,

We have two options.

She said,

We can take him into surgery.

And we can remove the right side of his brain.

And when she said that,

I knew like there,

There was no recovery of the entire right side of his brain.

And you know,

You know,

That's like the whole creative side,

You know,

You still have the logical side,

But you also you need both.

And it was,

It was unbelievable.

And she said,

We can,

We can take him in and remove the right side of his brain.

And he may not live through the surgery.

And he may not live a few weeks after the surgery,

You know,

And we knew that his life would never be the same.

Or,

You know,

We can let him go.

And it wasn't a hard decision.

My husband and I looked at each other.

And we knew,

You know,

That was the moment that we had to let him go.

And they brought us into a room.

And they had nursing there.

And he was on a vent.

And they took him off of the vent.

And I held him.

And he was breathing,

You know,

Pretty laboriously for a while.

And they said that,

You know,

He could,

It could be any amount of time,

You know,

They don't know.

And so I don't even know how long we were there.

I just know that I was holding him.

And I was looking right into his eyes.

And my husband was holding us.

And he,

He left this world with his mother looking right into his eyes.

And that's all I really know.

But it was the most devastating,

Awful thing that I feel like anybody could go through.

And we did it.

We,

We were there.

And we lost him.

And they came.

I'd say we lost him.

But I know that we really didn't.

It's,

But that's later.

We'll talk about that later.

But he,

They did handprints for all of us.

And we have them over his memorial table.

And he was cremated.

And just going through all of that,

In New York,

We didn't,

You know,

We had to set up a memorial service and decide whether we wanted to have him buried or cremated.

And just all this stuff that even though,

Like,

He was so close to death,

Like this whole time was never something that we thought about.

I don't know,

Maybe we should have had a better plan,

But we just couldn't bring ourselves to think like that that was something that would happen.

When he was diagnosed,

They said that about 50% of the children with high risk neuroblastoma live.

And so we knew that it was,

You know,

It was a coin toss,

Basically.

And I remember walking out,

My husband walking me out of the hospital and just seeing I was sobbing and just all these people walking towards us because we're in New York City and talking and laughing and smiling and,

Or even just oblivious,

You know,

To the things that just went on in our lives,

Like,

Because our lives completely stopped that day.

And for everyone else to just go on,

It felt like,

It felt like a slap in the face on top of it.

It felt like betrayal.

It felt like the world just keeps going.

And I'm sure everybody that loses somebody knows what that feels like,

Like you lose someone so close to you and the world just keeps going.

And it seems so unfair.

And I think that,

You know,

With PTSD and trauma,

You know,

Developing from those types of things,

That's kind of how it feels like you get stuck,

You get left behind while the world just keeps going.

And I still feel that way a lot to this day.

I feel like the world is just going so quickly and I can't keep up.

But that is basically the story of Elan's life,

The hard parts of his life.

The rest of his life in between chemo and all that was honestly really beautiful because we saw a community come together that we were new to in Albuquerque because we are not from there.

We had just moved there and I was just newly pregnant.

And luckily we had my sister-in-law living there and we were involved in the birth center and they just surrounded us with so much love that you would not be able to get from going to a hospital.

That it was meal trains and counseling support and just phone calls and hugs,

You know,

And listening and things that I think we were in the exact right place when that happened.

So I do feel grateful for the community that we had there and that we continue to have there even though we don't live there anymore.

Stacy,

Thank you so much for sharing your story and Elan's story.

I honor you.

I honor Elan and I'm so sorry for your loss and just thank you for being here and sharing that with the world today.

Thank you.

Thank you for listening.

Listening and crying over here in the background.

So Stacy,

In the early days after your son's passing,

What helped you get by the most?

I think that we were really grasping a lot.

My family and friends and community,

I knew that this was something that would change my life forever,

But it was scary because I didn't know how that was going to happen.

I just had to do it.

I just had to go through it.

I was flailing.

My husband was drowning and we couldn't support one another because we were both grieving.

And I just,

I think that the,

I think,

Like I said,

The support of that community that I was in,

I'm not sure honestly if I would even be alive today if it wasn't for that community.

And the counselor that I found who is amazing.

And I just,

I don't know,

There were so many things,

Like things that I don't even think that I was aware of at the time that people were doing for us that just made everything easier,

That made life easier.

I went to a yoga teacher training three months after he passed because I couldn't be,

I knew that my husband and I couldn't support each other in our grief because it was just,

There was just so heavy.

Like you can't lift someone up when you are suffering in the same way.

And I don't,

There's no faulting him for that.

Like I don't feel any kind of resentment or anything about that.

It's just that was the fact,

You know,

We couldn't do it.

And I,

Today,

I still,

I understand why people aren't able to stay together after they lose a child.

But I went to this yoga teacher training at Punta Mona in Costa Rica and I thought this should be like a really peaceful thing.

It was in the middle of the jungle.

There was no electricity.

There was internet Wi-Fi for one hour a day when they turned down the solar panels.

Like that was it.

And it was honestly looking back,

They said,

You know,

They were like,

This might not be the best thing for you to do right now,

You know,

If you're struggling or whatever.

But I honestly think it was the 100%,

The only thing I should have been doing.

It gave me something really healthy to focus on.

They were feeding us all vegan food that was grown on the permaculture farm.

There was nothing more nourishing than waking up and doing yoga for an hour and a half and meditating for 20 minutes and eating,

You know,

Food from the land and being surrounded by howler monkeys and,

You know,

Just all the ocean waves and other women who were,

You know,

Not going through the same thing,

But just there in that same headspace,

You know,

Of everybody has trauma that they're trying to heal from,

You know,

And,

And we shared a lot of that.

I remember the first day going into the ceremony,

The fire ceremony,

And we sat around and everybody talked about around the fire,

We were sitting there,

They were drumming and chanting at first,

And then we sat down and everybody had a moment to share,

You know,

Why they were there.

And I think I was the last one.

And so everybody had shared and we were sitting there and it came to me and I couldn't speak.

I couldn't say anything.

I just,

I,

And a few,

A lot of the women,

And before we had come to the permaculture farm,

We had stayed in a hotel near each other.

So we were taught,

We had eaten.

And I told them a little bit like that,

Ellen had passed and a few of the women there knew,

And every,

It was so it was just the silent space that they held for me.

And it was so beautiful because everybody held,

Everybody started to hold each other's hand and then they held my hands and then I could talk,

I could speak.

It was so beautiful.

I don't know if anybody's going to be able to understand me because I'm crying for everything I say,

But honestly,

It's just so beautiful.

Like it was,

It was one of the most amazing moments of my life to have that kind of support and connection from strangers,

Complete strangers.

And they just held space for me.

And I told them,

You know,

I'm here and I just lost my son and,

And I think everybody was really surprised that I was doing that,

You know,

But I'm that kind of person.

I'm not going to sit around and wait for healing to come to me.

You know,

I'm going to seek it out.

And I think that's part of why I'm here talking to you is because I knew that this would be super healing to talk about.

And I want people to ask me about it.

I work with a lot of,

You know,

Elderly seniors and all of them have experienced grief and loss and they're going through the end of their life.

And then when I tell them that I lost my son,

Cause a lot of them have lost children cause they're in their older years too.

And we form this connection that you can't form with anybody else because they know we,

We understand each other on a level that's just,

You can't explain.

And so I don't know,

It was just really,

It's just really beautiful to,

To go through that community experience of being uplifted and held by my community,

Uplifted and held by the yoga community that I had joined.

And I,

I'm the kind of person,

Like I said,

That has to,

I was grasping for anything.

I just wanted,

And the funny thing is in the beginning,

I was,

I just want to heal from this,

Right?

I just want to,

I just want to do the right thing to move forward.

But it's so silly when you think about that,

Because there,

You know,

You don't even know how grief and trauma are going to show up for you in your life for years to come.

And it's something that you just have to go through.

It's not,

It's not something you can just go to a yoga training and heal,

You know?

So,

So yeah,

That was,

That was the most beautiful thing I could do.

And my friends were there all the time.

They were there to listen and just,

Just be there.

Wow,

Stacey,

Thank you so much for being so vulnerable today and for sharing.

And I'm just so glad you were able to find such a far reaching community and such a supportive community and the support that you needed during those,

That initial time.

I'm just,

I'm so glad that you found that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So how has your relationship with grief changed and evolved as time has passed?

Yeah,

I think that's such a great question because you know,

You go through the initial stages of grief and,

And it's not a linear thing.

Like I'm a Virgo.

So for me,

It's like,

It needs to be this,

This road that you continue on.

And it's not that.

So I've,

You know,

I struggle with it.

I've struggled with it.

Sometimes I look back still in disbelief that any of it even happened.

It feels not real.

I think I dissociate sometimes.

But I also,

Like I said,

Find a lot of connection with other people through it.

And so that makes it really kind of a beautiful thing.

Not because I ever wanted it to happen,

But because it,

It did happen.

And because it's something,

If you can make something beautiful out of it,

Then,

Then I want that to happen.

Especially after Elin died,

I never understood like Japanese traditions that much about like honoring your family and,

And,

And honor to me.

I guess I didn't,

I mean,

I understood the concept,

But I never fully understood what honoring meant.

I think until I lost Elin.

And then I,

I decided that in living my life after his life ended,

I would do everything I could to honor him.

And for me,

That meant,

You know,

Trying to heal and trying to move forward and connecting with others in their grief and allowing others in to my grief and finding deeper empathy and sympathy.

Yeah.

I think that I lost,

I'd lost people in my life before that,

Before that in it,

It was devastating,

But it never,

Never like this.

And so that is something that really helped me connect to not only this world,

But I feel like beyond the veil,

I felt,

I,

I think I've realized that I used to be Christian and I don't subscribe to that anymore.

I grew up in that in the Christian family and we would go to church,

Not,

Not so much in my early life,

But as I got older,

Started going to church more and more,

And I never felt at home there.

And so after Elin passed away,

I realized that I first of all had to tell my dad that I don't know why I felt like I,

I,

Cause I felt like I was kind of lying to him in a way.

But after Elin passed,

I,

I felt emboldened to say,

You know,

I,

This isn't something that I really ever believed I wanted to because everybody else in my family did and my,

A lot of my friends did.

And,

But it was just never something that I really felt connected to in my heart.

And so that really began my spiritual journey.

And,

And I wanted to say,

I met a grief counselor.

His name is Jim Wired and he is in Taos,

New Mexico at Golden Willow Retreat.

And we had,

It's a grief retreat for people who,

Who need help grieving.

And we,

I didn't do his retreat,

But we had his,

We had Elin's memorial at his chapel that he had built by hand for his two little girls that had been killed in an accident.

And he said to me that,

You know,

When you lose a child,

You,

You have one foot in this world and you have one foot behind the veil.

And I think that that is the best description that I've ever heard.

And I,

Cause I didn't know why I was feeling the way I was feeling,

But I didn't,

I didn't feel like I belonged here anymore.

And I think that really helped me to understand,

Okay,

It's okay to have,

It's okay to have one foot here and one foot there.

And it's okay to feel like you don't belong here and you can still be here,

But I think that's just a really hard thing to explain to other people.

Really the actual,

The feeling of,

I'm sure a lot of,

There are a lot of people in the world who feel like they don't belong in this world just because of the way that society is set up.

And I felt that like a thousand percent more after we lost Elin.

And so it was just really nice to hear that somebody else knew that feeling because I didn't want to hear the Christian reasoning,

Everything happens for a reason or God has a plan.

I would have punched somebody in the face if they would have told me that at the time.

Like I just,

I not only didn't want to hear that,

But that to me is not true.

And it's,

And I know that there's a lot of spirituality,

Religion,

Things like that,

But I'm just coming from a place of authenticity from me.

And I'm not judging anybody else for their beliefs in God or anything like that because I understand believing in a higher power because I do believe in a higher power.

I don't know if I would call that God.

I don't,

I don't know what to call it,

But there's something that put all this together.

Like,

And it doesn't have to be like an intelligent plan either,

But there's something that brought this together,

Whether it's an energy force,

It is an energy force.

So it's a force and I haven't,

You know,

I don't have it all figured out either,

But it's in,

I guess the more I try to figure it out,

The more I realize that there's no figuring it out.

And so that's why religion scares me so much because people think that they have it figured out.

And it's,

It's,

That is more scary to me than the unknown when it comes to spirituality.

Stacy,

You just said everything so beautifully and I'll give you some reassurance.

You explained everything very well and it made a lot of sense to me.

So thank you for sharing.

And I'm just so,

So happy that through your journey,

You were able to find the connection and your spiritual journey and that it,

That it was able to help you and it's,

And it's through your spiritual journey that you and I connected and found each other and are here today.

And so,

Yeah,

I'm just so happy that you,

You listened to yourself and followed the path that felt right for you.

Thank you.

Yes,

That is,

I love that you said that.

That is the one thing that if I could get anybody to take away from this whole conversation is start listening to yourself,

Slow down.

I follow a few pages on Instagram,

The nap ministry and the philosophy of leisure because it is all about slowness and stillness and listening and the way that we have come to be in this world and the society and this fast paced capitalism is really not healthy for the human body and being and mind.

And if we can start to just slow down and listen,

There are so many things that I've learned about myself in my body that later were confirmed by science that I had just learned by listening.

And then it was confirmed and I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

Thank you.

Because there are like eating like foods,

Certain foods,

That's a really great,

Great one to go on.

You know,

You eat a food,

You feel bloated or you feel heavy or sluggish afterwards,

Like,

Maybe that's not a food for you or you eat a food that just smells so good to you or tastes so good to you.

That's,

You know,

A vegetable and you start eating it more and more.

And then you realize like,

Oh,

It has a lot of magnesium in it,

Which is really great for anxiety.

I started doing that right after I had anxiety.

I craved celery.

I wanted celery all the time and I would eat it,

Eat it.

And I finally looked up like,

Why am I craving celery?

And it was like magnesium and magnesium is great for calming you.

And so there are a few intuitive things with grief that I found out.

Like I started drinking rose tea and I was like,

This is such a luxury.

How did I not know about this before?

Hawthorne tincture was another one that's so great for grief.

It literally relieves the pressure from my chest immediately.

Like when I smell it.

And I just thought,

You know,

When I first started in the medical field,

That aromatherapy was kind of a joke,

Like,

And all this kind of stuff like,

But it is not,

It is 100% effective medicine.

The Hawthorne tincture I would drink and it relieves anxiety.

And I would take,

I was taking Valium.

I was taking Valium.

I was taking Kalanipin.

I was taking benzos from my doctor because I was having panic attacks and anxiety and all these issues.

And I thought,

You know,

Long-term use of this stuff is just really bad for you.

And so I started looking at other alternatives and that is when I really started learning about the plant world and listening.

I know this sounds so weird.

I know I'm going to sound so weird when I'm saying this,

But I really started listening to plants.

And what I mean by that is growing them from seed,

Watching them grow,

Seeing how they respond to light and water and you know,

The different nutrients you can give them.

And what's so beautiful about plant is they will tell you what they need if you,

If you listen.

And that is all the part of that slowness in life.

And so,

Yeah,

It's just really,

It's just,

It has been such a journey to learn about this intuitive,

Just listening to myself and listening to my body.

What is good for it?

What is bad for it?

And I,

You know,

I believe in moderation.

I have a beer or two every now and then,

And I have junk food sometimes,

But that also it's,

That's an intuitive thing.

Like,

Does this feel good right now?

Not does it feel good,

Like tastes good because there's salt,

Sugar and fat in it.

It's is,

Is it,

You know,

Are you with your family and having a birthday party and you're going to have a piece of chocolate cake?

Like that's a wonderful thing.

And that's that in my,

In my view,

That piece of chocolate cake is actually good for you because you're,

You're enjoying that moment with your family,

Right.

And your friends.

So I don't know.

It's just,

Yeah,

I think it's all about intuitive listening and learning.

I mean,

There's a lot of,

There's a lot of research and things like that,

That you can,

Can learn about these different things,

But listening to your body,

I think is the number one thing where you need to start that.

I,

I think when you have trauma and when I've read a lot of books about trauma,

Like the body keeps the score,

Your connection,

Your,

Your brain and body connection,

Your mind body connection kind of shuts off and you stop feeling in your body.

And that's also why I knew that yoga would be so good for me is because,

So I could continue to feel in my body.

You're speaking to my soul right now.

And I just want to add,

Cause you're talking a lot about slowness and listening to yourself and in your intuition.

And I just want to add the piece about being present too,

Because you really need to be present to be able to fully listen.

And there's a lot of power and presence.

And so speaking of the physical body,

What does grief feel like in your physical body?

Well,

I think I feel a lot of,

Oh gosh.

I think I've,

I thought about this a lot and I do feel a lot of heaviness in my chest,

But I felt a lot of heaviness in my chest,

But we did some meditations in my yoga teacher training in that ventured into the heart.

And so when I ventured inside of my heart,

What I saw there was a big open wound,

A big jagged open wound,

And it,

It was really scary at first.

And I saw myself going around the edges of that wound and trying to clean up the edges,

But the wound is not closing.

And I think that that's a really significant thing to say,

Because what I realized later that it's not so much about closing that wound because that's not going to happen.

I think at least for me,

I don't think that's going to happen.

But then when I had this epiphany that it's not so much like an open wound,

But like a cracking open.

And when I realized that it kind of shifted everything.

It just made me feel a little bit more like hard to relate to other people in some ways,

But I felt that was a good,

In a good way that I am more sensitive that I am more open.

I've had people tell me,

You know,

Because I going to work,

I take on a lot of the energy of other people.

I'm an empath.

And,

And when I have two or three,

Four patients a day,

And I come home and I'm exhausted because I'm taking on that energy of,

Of their illness or their sickness or their problems or their issues after their illness,

Getting around or their,

You know,

End of life type of things.

And I feel,

I can feel that heaviness at the end of the day,

Like,

And I'm exhausted from it,

You know,

And I've had people tell me,

Well,

Just don't take on other people's energy.

Just don't take it on.

And I,

For me,

I don't know how to do that.

That is something that I do.

And honestly,

I,

I think it's a gift.

I think I'm a healer.

And I think when I go to people's homes inside of their homes and listen to their story and take a piece of them with me,

That that's,

That's truly a gift,

Even though it's exhausting,

Even though it's,

You know,

Hard.

I don't think we should shy away from these hard things because that pain is the best teacher.

It's the,

It's the only teacher that will,

That is the biggest transformation in your life.

Like if you shy away from the things that cause you pain,

Your whole life,

I feel like you may not learn the lessons that your soul was meant,

Brought here to learn.

And I do believe that we have souls.

And I do believe that in the end,

End of life,

That we do become one of part of this one consciousness because our energy is neither created nor destroyed.

So it goes somewhere,

But I really do believe that it goes to this one consciousness and we're connected.

And so I used to have a really hard time with my patients passed away and I still do.

I still grieve for them,

But I almost feel like,

You know,

We have,

There's a lot of people who believe like your ancestors are all behind you,

Right?

Well,

I feel like when I go in and I learn these people's stories and I become close to them and I listen to them and share their grief and their struggle,

That after they pass,

That,

That I have them on my side too,

In a way like that they're on the other side of the veil.

They're guiding me in a way that they,

They guided me in this life.

And now they're,

They're in a different energy form,

Helping to guide,

To guide me.

And so it's,

Yeah,

I hope that makes sense.

Casey,

That's so beautiful.

And you know,

We hold so much in our physical bodies and our energetic fields without even realizing it,

It affects us.

And I,

I'm sure that for you,

All the knowledge you have from being an occupational therapist and a certified yoga teacher helps you really deal with that emotion and move that energy through your body instead of keeping it stuck,

Which is very easy to do.

Yeah.

So that is,

Thank you for saying that because that is the other thing is,

So yeah,

I get home,

I'm exhausted because I've taken on all this energy.

And that doesn't mean that when I wake up in the morning,

Like it's just,

I'm better sleeping helps,

But yeah,

I have to have movement practices and I have to have,

Like we were talking about,

I,

I like chanting practices and it depends on where I feel,

Feel it in my body.

Mostly it's my chest,

But sometimes I have other pain in my body or,

Or I just feel like jumping or I just feel like slowly moving or I feel like running as fast as I can,

I'm sprinting.

And that's another thing,

Intuitive exercise,

I think is something that I really want to emphasize to people because I think that we get stuck in this movement or this philosophy of like,

Oh,

High intensity interval training is going to make me look the best and lose the most weight.

So that's what I'm going to do every single day.

And then we end up maybe not feeling great because on days that maybe we needed to be slow,

We weren't listening to that.

And so there are a lot of times where I run for months on end and I that's feels really good.

And then there are times where I completely stop exercising for a week or two.

But I still,

You know,

Incorporate movement and walking,

But I,

I find myself in nature a lot.

I guess I can't say completely stop exercising cause you know,

I love walking and hiking and things like that in nature.

So that's exercise.

But to me,

I think like I'm,

I'm in that mindset like other people where you get in that,

Like it's either running or,

Or hit or all this other stuff,

But you know,

Gentle,

Slow movement is just as nourishing to your body as those really high intensity things.

And I think when you really start to be in tune with your body and listen to that,

You're going to feel better.

But yeah,

I,

But I also want to emphasize that movement in general,

I think that stagnation gets a lot of emotions stuck in your body.

And so even if it's just the slowest walk,

You know,

Down the street around your block is going to help move some of that emotion out.

Absolutely.

And beyond movement,

Stacy,

What does your practice living with grief look like today?

Which it's been years since Elon passed.

I've heard you mentioned before that you have a daily grief practice.

So what does that look like today?

It changes every day.

It is something like today it's meeting with you and it's sitting by the Lake and watching the swans and the birds and listening to people paddleboard by,

You know,

It's talking about him.

It's we have a Memorial table and his urn is on the table.

And we have candles that we light when we are really when we want whenever we want to,

We have pictures of him and his handprints.

His toys are inside the Memorial table.

So sometimes I'll take those out.

Sometimes it's sitting outside because you know how a lot of people when they lose somebody,

They start to notice signs and they know that it's from that person.

I can't explain how that happens.

Like,

But I now I understand it.

And so when Elon is around me,

I often see things floating in the sky.

So it will be cottonwood tree or dandelion.

It's those little soft,

Fluffy floating seeds that I end up seeing them all the time,

Sometimes really out of season.

So that,

You know,

That's one part of my grief practice.

Um,

You know,

You know,

You said aside from movement,

So yeah,

Lighting candles is just really great.

Just sharing a memory with someone,

My husband or talking to my son who's two,

Who doesn't understand yet,

You know that he he knows he has a brother,

And he knows Elon's name,

And he knows a few things,

But he's just not there to understand yet.

But just even sharing with him like this was your brother's toy and or we have a big turtle pillow that was Elon's and,

And Finn likes to snuggle it at night and things like that.

So I feel like they're just all sorts of little moments that you can take to,

To just honor that grief practice and to participate in that grief because,

You know,

I see Finn is your,

Your son who's two?

Yes,

Finn,

I see Finn hugging that pillow.

And part of it,

Part of me,

It breaks my heart,

You know,

And part of me,

It's so sweet and wonderful.

And there's,

I guess what I want to say is that there's space for both of those things in your every day.

And there,

You know,

There's space for 30 minutes to cry or almost every day when I'm driving Finn to school,

I do a lot of processing when I'm driving because I drive a lot.

And sometimes I go rolling up to the the gate for his daycare.

And I've got red eyes because I've been crying in the car,

You know,

And I'm like,

I swear I'm not high because we live in Colorado.

I'm like,

I've just been crying in the car,

You know,

But I'm sure they think I'm crazy.

But it's,

Yeah,

It's just about like taking those moments and giving yourself that space and not feeling like it has to be.

I mean,

There are times for big ceremony and days of grief.

But there are also times where you can just grab moments of that and just,

And that's enough,

You know,

And it doesn't have to be,

It doesn't have to take over your whole life.

You're really an inspiration,

Stacy.

I hope that people listening are really inspired by all that you do on a daily basis for yourself and to honor your grief.

That's really beautiful.

Thank you.

May I ask you,

And you did touch on this,

But do you have a relationship with your son's soul?

I think so.

I mean,

It's so hard to say because like I,

We were talking earlier and sometimes I think your left brain says,

Is this real?

Like,

What am I doing?

You know,

Who am I talking to?

Or this is so crazy because,

You know,

I'm sitting there talking to him or thinking that these seeds floating in the sky are signs from him.

And I,

You know,

I can sometimes feel a little cuckoo,

But then I,

I think I really intuitively know like that,

That that's him.

I don't know how to explain it.

I just,

I know that that's him and that's him to me.

And it doesn't really matter what anybody else thinks.

And I,

I think I have a relationship with his soul because I have a better relationship with death.

Now I think that I have a better relationship with death because I know that when I die,

I'll be going,

I'll be going through the same thing that he went through.

And that to me is something to look forward to in the way that I want to know.

I want to know what he experienced.

I've always been fascinated by near-death experiences.

And there's a few things like I watched a show on,

I think it was on Netflix about near-death experiences.

And in that just convinced me.

Like I just,

I know that there's something else.

I think that I do have a connection with his soul.

I think I'm still learning about what that is.

And I've heard you say before that you,

That you can feel him around you.

Absolutely.

There are a lot of times where when I'm struggling,

It's so weird because at the time,

At the time when I'm struggling,

I can be really upset or crying and thinking,

You know,

I want to rely on my ancestors to kind of guide me and take their strengths and let them guide me.

And at first it was really strange to be like,

Let me ask my baby what I should do,

You know,

But children are our biggest teachers,

Our living children and our deceased children.

And I'm learning that every day.

He's like your spirit guide now.

He is.

And I,

It's so strange because like,

He knows so much more than I do now.

And it's,

You know,

He was 11 and a half months old when he passed away.

And so it is,

It is strange to kind of be like guide me,

But yeah,

I know he's there.

I,

Let me just go into something.

It's kind of off,

But when I was in Costa Rica,

We had been doing guided meditations for a while.

This may,

This may answer the question.

And probably about 15 or 20 days into the meditating every day for about 20 to 30 minutes,

I had an experience that I can't explain.

And it was,

I kept seeing this little black dot and it would change.

And it was like,

I thought that was just like a floaty in my eye.

Like,

You know,

Sometimes I see those and I kept seeing this dot and I,

And in my meditation,

Something inside of me or,

Or guided outside of me,

Guided me,

It said,

Stop looking at the dot,

Go inside.

And I was,

I didn't even realize that,

Oh,

Okay.

Like I could go inside of it.

You know,

It wasn't a possibility to me before.

And so I found myself like,

It was like a portal.

And I went inside and I saw this line of shadows of people sitting in rows.

I couldn't see them all,

But I knew intuitively that those were my ancestors and they were,

They were behind me and they were supporting me.

And I looked around and I saw Elon and I picked him up and I put him on my hip.

Like I always did.

And I felt him,

He just fits,

You know,

He just fit right there.

So while he,

His little legs like gripped me and he loved playing with my hair and he was,

He was pulling my hair a little bit,

Just patting me.

And I look to another side of me and I see my grandparents,

My deceased grandparents,

And they were standing there and we were not talking.

We weren't talking out loud to each other,

But we were speaking to each other in a knowing and like a telepathic way.

Like I looked at them and their energy was telling me like,

We're here and we're going to take care of him.

And I was,

I handed Elon to my,

My grandfather and I came out of that meditation.

You know how some people say they have an experience with God and they're trembling afterwards.

That is,

I've never felt that uncontrollable type of tremble.

Like you just were in another world.

Maybe right after I gave birth that,

And both times you give birth and your body goes through like this,

This trembling,

It's a change.

And I had that experience meditating and I came out of it and I was just trembling and sobbing.

And I had,

I told my,

My yoga teacher about it.

And I said,

What was that?

Like I said,

Was that real?

And she goes,

She's so lovely.

She said,

Did it feel real?

And I said,

Yeah,

It felt more real than anything I've ever experienced in my life.

And she just shook her head and she just nodded her head.

And that was one of the beginnings of the journey that I've having,

Listening to myself and trusting myself.

Like I had that experience that was more real than anything that I've ever felt.

And then I felt like I had to go ask somebody if it was real.

And she was so lovely because she put the ball right back in my court and said,

This was this was real to you.

This is real,

You know?

And that was,

That was life changing,

Honestly.

It was transforming for me to trust myself because I feel like so much we're taught that we can't trust ourselves.

And that was one of the turning points in my life to realize,

Like maybe you don't see it,

Maybe you don't understand it,

But that is real to me.

And so when I started to dive deep into that journey of trauma and just having like a better understanding of maybe that we could go through that same event together and it's not traumatic to me,

But it's traumatic to you.

That doesn't mean that your experience is any less valid or any less traumatic.

And so,

Yeah,

It's been,

It's just been a really great learning experience.

And I,

And in that way,

I know that I'm connected to his soul and to all my ancestors.

There's so much more to this universe than just what we physically experience on this 3D earth plane.

And I knew from the moment I met you,

You were really tapped into that and it's very inspiring and really beautiful.

And thank you for sharing that story.

Thank you.

Even think about something as simple as radio waves.

I love giving that example to people because that's something that we can't see.

Microwaves,

Waves,

Radiation,

You know,

All these things that we use every day that we can't see,

But yet we think we know everything or these,

All these colors on the spectrum that our eyes are not even able to see,

But they're there.

And science has proven that.

And so there are so many evidence-based scientific practices that prove spirituality,

Like that the prove these,

These spiritual things that we sometimes still disregard,

I think.

And I'm not,

I'm not doing that anymore.

Me neither.

And that's why the scientists started the spirituality podcast.

So Stacy,

Shifting gears a little bit,

What role does self-love and self-care play in living with grief?

I am still learning about that.

I have come so far in the past few years,

Just even accepting that it's okay to take care of myself first.

You always hear the adage that if you can't take care of yourself,

Then you can't take care of other people.

But it's true,

But it's so much deeper than that.

It's about caring for yourself,

But it's about boundaries.

I learned so much about boundaries in 2020 with work and,

And what I needed to be able to work and what I needed to just be able to be a person in the world.

And that's just basic stuff.

I mean,

Honestly,

I feel like we could all spend all day taking care of ourselves and that would just be enough sometimes.

And that's why I think we say when people are super depressed and it's hard for them to get out of bed,

Like if you just get out of bed,

That's enough,

You know,

And it really is.

And it's all relative,

You know,

To what you are and it comes all back to intuitive listening to yourself.

And there are some days where I don't have to do much self-care and I can be really productive and get a ton of things done.

And then there are other days where I almost can't do anything but take care of myself just to get through those days.

And it's not because I'm like a total mess or anything like that.

It's just like,

That is what my body needs to be healthy.

And I think that we've just in the society become so fast paced and under the,

This idea that if we're not productive,

We don't have value.

And I I'll be honest,

I still struggle with that.

I will look at my day and be like,

I literally did nothing today,

But then,

But when it comes down to it,

It's,

It's like,

No,

I got out of bed.

I got dressed.

I got my son up.

We ate like nutritious food.

It's all about,

It's all relative.

And it's all about your perspective of productivity.

We have these productivity standards as an OT or as therapists,

PTs and OTs mostly in habit.

And I've always lived under that heavy weight of working in a clinic and having these productivity standards.

If you're working with a clinic,

With a client that's considered the minutes that you're working with a client is considered productive all the other time that you are spending,

Say doing documentation,

Talking to,

You know,

Calling doctors or,

Or their family members,

That's unproductive time.

And I I'm such a wordsmith.

Like I,

I cannot stand that they call that unproductive time.

To me,

That's some of the most important things that I do is documenting because you don't document,

You don't get paid.

It's kind of the same thing in life.

You know,

We're,

We're told that if we're not working 40 hours a week or more,

We're not productive enough,

You know,

And I don't believe that to be true.

And I,

I don't think I'll ever believe that to be true again.

It's all about,

You know,

Just taking a look at your life.

Are you happy?

What do you need?

You know,

What listening to your body,

What movement do you need?

What foods do you need?

What practices do you need?

Because my practices are not your practices,

You know,

And they won't work for you in the same way.

And that's okay.

And that's,

It's just about your practices for self care need to be as unique as you are.

And you have to try a lot of things and maybe you don't like them to find out what those things are.

You know,

I've,

I've tried like,

I don't,

I like running more than I like riding my bike,

You know,

Or whatever it is,

But it's just,

It's just about listening to your body and yeah,

It comes all back to being present and listening to yourself.

Absolutely.

And so self care and by extension,

Self love are really crucial components.

And I imagine also patience with yourself and allowing yourself to feel emotions as they pop up are really important when living with grief and really for everybody.

Yes.

I really love what Sarah Blondin says about allowing.

She talks about giving yourself permission.

That was one of the most powerful things I've heard somebody say,

Because you grow up and people are always telling you what to do.

And you write permission slips at school to go to the bathroom and you get permission slips to go to,

You know,

To go to field trips and things like that.

But when do we ever,

You know,

Sit down and give ourselves permission?

Sometimes that's all it takes to kind of do something.

Brene Brown also talks about this.

I love her.

Just really trying to allow yourself to express that self love in ways that are unique to you,

I think is really important because it,

Like I said,

The practices that I do,

They won't necessarily work for you.

So it's just about giving yourself permission to be slow permission to listen.

And if you literally have to sit down and write yourself a permission slip,

This is one of Brene Brown's.

She does this for herself.

She writes herself a permission slip,

Like,

Like a field trip thing.

She's like,

You have permission to enjoy yourself today.

And then it's easier to do that.

I don't know what the what's in our brains that makes that connection.

But yeah,

Sometimes we just need to,

To allow it.

Love that.

I love that.

And,

You know,

Back to things we were talking about earlier,

After everything we've talked about,

Everything we've discussed today,

And ways to live with grief,

What is your advice for those really struggling with their grief?

I would say that at least for me,

Because I just,

It's hard to say like,

This will work for everyone.

But I think that I'm not too different from other people.

So in a lot of ways,

Emotionally,

Just talk about it.

Just connect with other people.

You will be so surprised and how much relief you can find by just somebody sitting and listening to you,

Or saying,

Yeah,

You know,

I lost my mother,

Or I lost my child too.

And finding grief support,

Finding a counselor in therapy is super important.

I think self care,

Giving yourself permission to love yourself,

Seeking out people who will love and support you.

And,

And educated professionals in grief counseling are all really great ways to help yourself move forward if you're feeling stuck.

Thank you,

Stacey.

And thank you so much for being here today and being vulnerable and sharing your story.

And I think that people are really going to connect with you a lot through your words today.

So thank you.

Is there anything else you'd like to share today?

No,

I just want to say if anybody really is struggling in this podcast,

You know,

They really connected to what I was saying.

I'm happy to for them if they want to reach out.

I'm happy to talk to them about it.

I'm happy to listen.

I know we all have super busy lives.

And you might see me on Instagram saying how like how busy I am and all this stuff.

But I will always make space for for people who need it because I've been through it and I'm still going through it.

And I think we can learn a lot from each other.

So,

You know,

Please don't hesitate to reach out if you need it.

And also just there are going to be moments where you feel like you can't keep going.

Keep going anyways.

Grief is a part of life.

So it's time to normalize talking about grief,

Sharing our experiences and supporting each other.

Just as we have the capacity to love deeply,

We have the capacity to grieve deeply.

Living with our grief,

Being at peace with our grief means feeling all of our emotions,

However they manifest.

It means being in touch with ourselves and allowing our emotions to move and flow in full acceptance.

It means giving ourselves grace and above all being present.

In a way,

Grief forces us to be more connected to our hearts.

It forces us to surrender to what is as we all experience grief in this life,

Realize we are all connected.

You are not alone.

It's time to come back to love.

I'll end today with a quote from Rumi.

Grief can be the garden of compassion.

If you keep your heart open through everything,

Your pain can become your greatest ally in your life's search for love and wisdom.

Reviews

Wow! I am SO glad I listened to this! Thank both of you so much! My husband of 43 years, high school sweetheart, and infrastructure for 50 years; died nearly 4.5 years ago. He was healthy, then diagnosed with a rare aggressive form of cancer, and died 8 weeks later. The doctors were optimistic that treatment would extend his life, for possibly as long as five years. In spite of trying many things for grief and depression, I still have days that I can barely get out of bed. We didn’t have children and I have no nearby family or friends. I’ve tried build a new life for myself; but I’m wondering is it the life I want, or “just” what I see/know to try. It is SO hard and SO ongoing