Joy And Grief Can Coexist With Linda Findlay

Linda Findlay's daughter, Aubrie, lived for exactly two hours and nine minutes. Aubrie's time on the earth was incredibly short but the impact she left on Linda was profound. What began as a support group to heal from her devastating loss morphed into an aftercare service for funeral homes and a series of books, followed by Linda's biggest undertaking yet—the Bereavement Cruise, now in its third year. She's on a mission to show grievers that joy and grief can coexist.

Transcript

Linda,

Thank you so much for joining us on coming back today and I'm so excited to have you here to speak about the bereavement cruise but your your loss story as well and kind of how the whole thing got started.

Thank you,

Shelby.

Thank you for having me and yes we all do have a grief story.

I lost my daughter 28 years ago and that was my first devastating loss although my mother died about 10 months before that and that was kind of shocking and I thought at that time that that was the worst loss and then my daughter died so it was a really horrible time for me and I just didn't have the support that I needed because people just didn't understand and I found myself just wandering around trying to find you know resources somebody to talk to and about four months after my daughter died I remember being in my basement in my house where my washer and dryer was and I went down there and I could not remember for the life of me having been down there washing clothes for four months and at that point I said there's something wrong you know I just didn't understand the grief I didn't understand what was going on everyone around me was suggesting that I move on and you know all those things that people say that are not helpful and so I put myself into counseling and also joined a support group which I found was very helpful and from that I did that for about a couple of years and then I got involved with the support group and started to facilitate meetings myself and then shortly after I started doing that I went to a local hospice and asked them if they would support the support group because there wasn't many people that were involved with you know doing all the things that are involved with you know promoting the support group making sure the community knows about it and all that good stuff so they agreed to take over the support group but they told me I need to go through their hospice training to do that and so I did and was trained to be a Bremen support group facilitator and worked with them for many many years until I actually left New York four years ago I'm actually was five years ago and worked with them all those years and it was through my work with hospice that I met a lot of funeral directors and started asking funeral directors you know what do you do for your families when they experience a loss and most of them if not all of them said we do nothing but we should and so that kind of triggered something for me and I thought well maybe I can put together some kind of resource and referral service that people can call and get information about all of the you know resources available to them and that's when I founded Morning Discoveries and so that's I actually started out as just a resource and referral service and ended up being I started to develop what we call aftercare programs in the funeral service world and what that is is that we follow families for at least a year after their loss and that includes me sending them out a series of books throughout that year and I actually wrote the books that I sent to my families in 2008 that's when I started using those and to this day I work as an aftercare coordinator for a lot of funeral homes and I often say that my daughter's my work life work is my daughter's legacy so that's that's my life story in a nutshell so.

How did grief and loss become something that consumed you so greatly because at first it sounds like you know I'm reaching out for help I'm getting myself into counseling and support groups was there some kind of mentality shift or something that happened where you were like okay this is important enough that I need to make this what I do?

Well I guess I just felt a lot of compassion for people in recognizing that it just was common that people didn't have the support that they needed and so I just kind of felt that it was my mission in life to make that different because my experience to me was that was the worst and the worst part was losing my daughter obviously but then to not understand like what grief was I mean you don't go anywhere and learn about what grief is you know even people can tell you and you can be around others who've experienced loss and unless you experience it yourself you just don't know and I was young and I just had no idea even though like I had said my mom died 10 months before my daughter and that was shocking but it just was not anything compared as a matter of fact people used to tell me oh you're now your mother has an angel in heaven after my daughter died and I was like that's like the last thing I wanted to hear at that point so I just I just made it my mission I just I want to help people I want help help people to support them and I had to recognize early on that there really wasn't anything that I can say or do that was going to change somebody's grief journey but that if I could be there just to listen and maybe offer some words of encouragement or share some tidbits about how myself or other people dealt with certain situations and scenarios I just felt that's that's what I wanted to do and I guess you can call it calling and so that's what I dove into.

I want to take a second and honor who your daughter was to you maybe say her name and share some stories about how how she came into your life what she brought to your life while she was here on the earth with us.

Well her name was Aubrey and she wasn't with us that long she was born and she was born with a lot of different problems after we were told that anything that could be wrong with her could be fixed and so she was born and they told us that there was nothing that could be fixed and she only lived for two hours and nine minutes and it just was a horrible awful outcome to a very wanted pregnancy a very wanted child and just my whole world was just shattered I didn't know babies died I was like how does that happen and and so I kind of most of what I know about her is all of what she is in my heart in my mind I mean that's I think one of the difficulties about losing an infant is that you know you don't have those things to hang on to that's a whole conversation in and of itself and so I had to create things that were important to me that helped me to feel connected to her because for me I needed to feel connected to her even though she was you know no longer here on earth I needed to you know recognize her life I needed to honor her life I needed to love her every day and just and share that with people and so that's where the roadblock came is that I couldn't share her with people because people didn't know her they didn't meet her they didn't see her so to them there wasn't a child behind my pregnancy it was okay well you could just go have other children and everything will be fine so so yeah I don't I just know that I love her and she's very much part of my life and there's not a day goes by that I don't recognize that you know my ultimate goal in life is to see her again and that's what keeps me going along with the work that I do and so that's what I can tell you about her and I always one thing I want to add it always I don't want to say guess but I always had a feeling that she had blue eyes and I would have no reason to believe that because my husband has brown eyes and I have brown eyes and then I had my second daughter Julia and she was born with blue eyes and I was like yep I knew it it's like in my heart I knew it so I can tell you that about her too I think she had blue eyes you know I never saw them so yeah that's that.

Oh my gosh I just got chills as you said that and I think there's something how do I phrase this I think there's almost like a knowing in us that even after we lose you know the people that are most valuable to us even if we didn't know them for very long especially that kind of mother's gut knowledge the mother's intuition feeling I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head with that and even just something in you knows that there's an unexplainable element of these relationships and of grief too that that's coming through in your in your words and I just I'm connecting with that I really like that.

What rituals or maybe yeah rituals is the word I'm gonna choose did you create in your life to honor her how do you continue to honor Aubrey in the day today aside from doing the work that you do?

Well you know those kinds of things have lessened through the years early on I felt as though I needed to you know every day she was she was there she you know I had little mementos from when she was born and and you know had to have those things around me and I always would say I need to visit with Aubrey now and I would take out the few things that I had for her I have pictures I had her hospital bracelet her birth certificate her footprints and all that stuff and so I needed to stay connected and visiting with with that stuff for a really long time and and then it became you know just doing things like always to honor her birthday and to this day there's people even my closest family and best of friends who don't even remember her birthday and they don't remember her birthday even after every single year for 28 years I say Aubrey's birthday's tomorrow or Aubrey's birthday was yesterday and they're all like oh okay oh I'm so sorry I missed that and it doesn't hurt anymore but it's like you know for me that was a bittersweet day you know and I've often said that you know the saddest day of my life was when a baby was born and the happiest day of my life was when a child was born so I know those both those extremes and I guess in my own right I try to acknowledge her early on we always went to the cemetery and brought balloons and I had a a candle I don't know if you ever see these little candles that people buy when they have children and every year you burn it down to the next year and so I felt like she's not going to deprive her of that and I bought a candle and so for about five years I would go to the cemetery on her birthday and you know sit there and burn the candle with and have the balloons and by that point I'd already had Julia and I would take Julia my other daughter to the cemetery with me and then it got to the point where I think she was starting to recognize what what we lost and she would get really hysterically crying and upset and I went to one of the bereavement counselors that I was working with at hospice and I said oh my gosh I'm like traumatizing my daughter what is going on and I can't do this to her anymore and she said she goes as she gets older she's gonna even though she was the the sister after she's gonna grieve that loss because she sees that you are and so I just kind of stopped doing that with her at that point because I just felt really awful that I didn't want her to be so upset such a tender age so I just found little things that I did to to recognize and to acknowledge and it always just again became like the birthday and then every Christmas I buy a Christmas ornament for her there's a hallmark series called oh gosh I miss somebody's angels but anyhow every year I buy one of those ornaments to this day and believe it or not I have every year since the year she was born except for the year that she was born so for some reason I don't have 1989 I have 1988 which was the first one that was given to me off of somebody's tree and I have every year after 1989 but I do not have 1989 so that's kind of odd I don't have that so yeah so it's just little things that I do to to stay to feel like I'm connected to her and that and I'm so sure of my love for her that I don't have the need to do all the things that I used to do it's almost like I've grown into being so positive about my love for her and that it is valid and that she was significant and always will be so I don't have the same needs that I had early on so I guess that's the best way I can explain it.

Who were some people in your life that did validate that for you because I think you know in the beginning stages of loss I need any scrap of information I can find any you know physical items I need you know rituals that I do things of that nature and then they kind of fade with time not because we start to care less or we start to forget but because we start to internalize the validity of our loss and I think a lot of it we get this you know affirmation from the outside wherever that comes from but also like you said internally that we just know that our love is always there less proof exists on the outside but I wonder kind of maybe who taught that to you or maybe who brought those teachings or beliefs into your life after you lost her?

Well like I said the people closest to me and around me did not know what to do with me so nobody said anything and when I joined the support group it was called SHARE and that's a really a national organization that supports mothers or families who've lost a child to miscarriage,

Stillbirth,

Newborn death or SIDS and so I connected with that organization it was based out of Missouri and I started writing the director of that program a very sweet lady by the name of Sister Jane Marie and if I had to pick out one thing that was again one of those turning points like wow this is really I'm not just feeling this because there's something wrong with me and she would write back and forth back and forth so many letters that I got from her so many that I sent to her and that just to me was my first real validation in addition to going to the support group once a month and you know listening to other people's stories and what they were going through again validated that for me and then the jump forward some years later when I started to take over the SHARE group that was local I went to a convention it was a yearly convention that they held for the National SHARE organization and I had an opportunity to meet Sister Jane Marie and they actually gave me because I asked for them all of the letters that I sent to her and they were just we're very happy to give them to you because we know that those are important because obviously I had the ones that she sent to me but I didn't have the ones that I sent to her we didn't I didn't have a computer there was no computers in our homes at that time.

This is pre-email.

And so it was pre-email and the other thing that's significant about that is that at the convention itself she had gotten up and she did like a keynote speech for the convention and she had a red heart it was a stuffed red heart and she had one and she had to give it away to somebody and so I don't remember if it was a ticket on a table or ticket that we had well I won the red heart and the other thing that it's reminded me about is that the hearts were significant because whenever I wrote Aubrey's name I wrote a heart above the eye and I always thought of it as being that Aubrey's color was red so now I'm the only person in this room of probably I'm gonna say there was probably a couple thousand people that attended this from across the country I was the only person that got that red heart so I've carried that red heart with me to more support groups and more community outreach events than I can even name and so so there's another thing that was significant and so I say that was the most and then as I got to talk to other parents but as far as you know family support and people around me I didn't get any validation and as I said Shelby to this day I don't get any validation and and it's okay but it's it's just so unrecognized the type of loss that I had.

And it's so frustrating because there's almost like there's not almost like there is this mentality that floats around in society like well you can have other children as if these these relationships that we hold even if we hold them you know for two hours and nine minutes are somehow less significant because we can have another one quote unquote just like it and that's oh my gosh it's like one of the biggest insults to somebody grieving a baby.

Yeah yeah because again I think people think that you know even in a miscarriage or a stillborn people think that you've lost a pregnancy and so they don't really acknowledge the significance of the child behind that pregnancy and so that's a lot of what I've got I mean Shelby I've had friends years later who said to me oh yeah I remember you had a miscarriage and not that the miscarriage would have been any less traumatic I'd never experienced that so I don't know but I was like even people didn't even know they just didn't even realize it.

That's not what happened.

Yeah that's not what happened and you know that was very upsetting to me for a really really long time and I just had to come to terms with it and really recognize that you know people don't act like that and don't say things that aren't helpful because they don't care they do that because they don't understand and that's probably that's how I started out my series of books that I wrote is that you know I had to recognize that people didn't you know not acknowledge Aubrey because they didn't care they just didn't understand and so to me that that brought peace in to that part of it and I don't understand it to this day like I said that nobody still remembers but it's okay it's it's it's truly okay because I am so strong in my belief and and how I feel about Aubrey that I don't need anything to validate that for me anymore.

What is the day?

It's September 1st.

I'm just gonna validate a little space for that here on the podcast today I know the first episode of season four aired on September 5th so we'll be missing it by just a little bit but but that is important.

That's my anniversary.

September 5th is?

Yes my anniversary.

Oh how cool that's so exciting.

I love it I guess we haven't talked about your spouse's involvement at all with Aubrey her memory and I guess how you bring in her into your family picture today.

Oh he was just he he was actually so wonderful the entire time through all of you know the loss of her and the aftermath and I think that he didn't he didn't understand either I can remember him saying to me Aubrey died on September 1st and I think that first meeting in October for the shared support group he had somehow gotten information for and insisted that I was going I mean we weren't even a month out if that and he was like no we're going we ended up going on the wrong night nobody was there and I just I don't know so the poor guy I mean he tried from day one and for him I think that at first I don't it was an awful loss for him I mean he held her as she died and I I didn't even get to do that and so for him it was that was a different experience for him and so I think that he just he was worried about me which you'll hear that you know the dad's worried about the mom and so by him going to the support group he learned that like he would come home from work those first few months and he wouldn't say anything he would just talk about work what's going on at work and I didn't go back to my job right away so I was home all day basically just in the midst of grief and as I told you my mom had died the 10 months before and I still had my mother's floor arrangement hanging on my wall that was deader than I don't know what it stunk to all high hell and it was still and I would just would sit at my kitchen table staring at this god-awful looking thing that was beautiful and just thinking what is wrong with me and then he'd come in the door he'd be like oh come on let's go out to dinner well he had to learn and he did learn again through going to the support group that he needed to come home and talk about Aubrey or at least ask me do you want to talk about Aubrey so he would start doing that he was so sweet he'd come home and say you want to talk about Aubrey right now and you know Shelby there was days that I was like oh thank you so much yes and then there was other days they're like no I don't have to do that let's go to dinner it again it was that validation so he was really wonderful through all of it he supported me and every single thing that I've ever done that has to do with the work that I've done with with families and through hospice and through my funeral homes I mean I've dragged him to more you know community outreach events and different things that I was involved in and and with the bereavement crews you will see that he he will be with us the entire time running around even taking care of people's air conditioning or whatever kind of problems that they have he's just been so supportive in everything that I've done and I don't know I don't want to say that you know it brought us closer because I don't like to say that that's part of one of the positive things that we got from a loss of a child but he was certainly there for for all of it and to this day is and for both of us you know I don't know if I mentioned I moved from New York from New York State a few years ago and for both of us one of the hardest things when we had friends lifelong friends and roots and family up in upstate New York and the hardest thing for both of us was leaving our daughter in the cemetery up there and I didn't cry for not one person that I left I did not I mean I was like happy to have a new adventure in life but it was like oh my god we're leaving Aubrey in upstate New York and that was really hard and I never would have even that hit me like out of like nowhere when I had to think about it and he was so supportive through all of that and and we've moved out to South Carolina and we went we bought some bricks at our church that have her name and birth date on along with one we bought for my mom and one for his dad so we made our own little spot down here and he was all for that and encouraging about that so he's just been wonderful I I really I really got lucky I really did and I know that and he has celebrated everything that I've celebrated he's gone to the cemetery with me he's gotten the balloons done the candle thing the ornaments Christmas ornaments I mean everything he's just been a part of all of it and I'm just grateful for that I really am.

It makes an enormous difference when you have a partner not only who's with you but who tries I think is is the key to who continues to to learn who wants to learn and and there's like a curiosity sometimes that comes with grief of like you just need to want to know more about what's going on you don't need to try to fix it or you know solve it or analyze it or judge it but you know just a curiosity of like okay what else you know might we be able to to do or to be.

Well he certainly like I said I think and again I think it's it's common he was so concerned about me I mean he'll tell the story that he thought I was gonna die I mean it wasn't bad enough that you know our child had to die in his arms but that he really he thought I was gonna die because he'll tell the story that when the doctor had come to me and I was like in complete state of shock and then said to me you know your your daughter's gonna die and I to this day I can see her eyes all bloodshot and teary and he said that he looked at the monitor the heart monitor that they put you on and he said and it just like plummeted and then there was like nothing but what ended up happening because my hysterics I must have knocked off the the thing they put on your finger to monitor all that stuff and but to him he's like I thought you were just dead he's like I the thing you know it just all happened so fast so that's he just that stuck with him you know he was so worried that something was gonna happen to me both physically you know after I had her and then emotionally you know the the months down the road and and I think again he needed to learn and he did you know we lost a child you know and it was horrible but at first you don't know any of that you're just like in shock and scared and worried and and all of that so I'm saying he has his own story to tell and it's and he doesn't hesitate to to tell it I've had him come in when I was running my support groups for parents that lost a child he'd come in and tell it he'd spend time with the men the dads you know we would do that once or twice a year and he would just come on in and just sit with them and talk to them and you know we'd offer it as a special night out for you know for the couples and everything and he the men would go with him and I would be the women so he's always been involved and supportive and and and has grieved in his own right you know and and I've always recognized that.

I'm gonna transition a little bit now because you did mention his involvement with the bereavement crews and I'm curious to get to that spot of our conversation as well so how did you get to to morning discoveries to publishing books to like hey let's put a bunch of grievers on a boat together and see what happens.

That's a really good question Shelby it really is and it's a I mean it's a short simple simple story is that as I've said I've worked with thousands of families and I've connected with thousands of families through all the funeral homes that I work for and and been told so many different stories and I used to document what people would say but I only documented if it was something different you're talking years and probably at this point thousands of families and at one point I think it was in 2007 here I said it's a short story I'll just I'll try and shorten it in 2007 on the supplier that I was using I had a series of books that I was using for my families from a supplier and they cut me off like suddenly and unexpectedly and it became a whole fiasco and a good friend of mine said Linda what are you doing using other people's books write your own damn books and I was like write my own damn books I said I'm not I'm not an author never had a desire to write any books well I gave that some thought and I woke up on Christmas or New Year's Day morning I woke up and I said it was 2008 I said by June I'm gonna have the four books written I'm gonna have them copy written published and hopefully all of my funeral homes will be okay with using them and so I wrote the series of books and each of them are written to be received at one three six and eleven months after the date of death and so they each address common things that people experience and I drew upon all of those notes that I took I had two big huge file boxes full of index cards of notes and I kind of separated them all out so I say by the grace of God and by the by the families that I worked with and who shared all of that with me I somehow it got written down on paper and so so that's how the books came about and from there and all the circles that I was in in all the years periodically people would say oh someone should put together a bereavement cruise and for those people don't know I was a travel agent before life and so I kept saying you know someday I want to get back into that and and then I started thinking about the bereavement cruise and I said well maybe now's the time to get into the travel agency and this way if I put together bereavement cruise I have complete control over everything that goes on as you imagine it's a very very special group of people that are joining us and I just want to make sure that they were taken care of the highest level possible and so I bit the bullet and I bought a franchise of cruise planners and said I'm strictly going to be coordinating the bereavement cruise through my travel agency and take care of all aspects of it which is exactly what I've done and now people do come to me for other trips and I have to turn them away but that wasn't the purpose was to be able to you know choose the correct ship the correct itinerary the you know the correct programming all of it so that it would be the best experience for people because again it's a very very special group of people that are joining us and so I just I wanted it to be the best experience so that's how that went so that's how I landed with the bereavement crew so and so we're just hoping to you know grow the program and increase awareness for it and you've done a fabulous job with that sharing that information to your your followers and and that's what we need to do is people when they hear about it first the thought is you know bereavement and cruise doesn't even really sound good together it's like how do you how do you put those two things together but when you think about it it really is an opportunity for people to experience an atmosphere of being with other people who have had a loss who are grieving doesn't matter how much time's gone by and then also enjoying all of what's involved with a cruise as far as the vacation the relaxation all of the amenities of the cruise and so all of that becomes okay I don't know if you you probably recognize when people are grieving and they talk about doing something that's fun they often feel guilty about that and they feel how can I go and laugh and have fun my child died or my spouse died or my parent died and somehow being amongst other people who are grieving all of that becomes okay and we've been told that over and over again that this wasn't a guilty vacation this is not something that I felt guilty about joining and so there's all that piece of it too is allowing yourself to to you know participate in that and learn and and be supported and all of that but then to still be able to relax and feel good about that there's something to be said about being out on the sea no matter where you are in your life in your life journey for that matter there's really something to be said about that and then sharing that with other people and then doing all of that to honor the person who died I mean that's that's powerful I mean I just look at that and it's like wow so that is what it's about is right there.

I love it and I think there's so many metaphors for grief and the ocean and the water and I often describe grief as the feeling of holding two separate realities one on each hand and you're never fully able to drop either one of them so one is like total joy in the fullness of life and the other one is absolute despair and heartbreak and you can never fully release either one of them so to put you know rest,

Relaxation,

Spa,

Shore excursions in hand with the worst thing that's ever happened to you and to put both of them on a boat together and just like whisk off into the ocean was just such a cool idea to me and I guess that the reason it spoke to me and why I had to sign up and to call you and everything related to it is that since my mom died we've taken a trip every single year around her death-aversary her grief-aversary and about I think two years ago we went on what was mine and my sister's very first cruise and we had such a blast and simultaneously like use the cruise as a way to like make new memories,

Honor her memory,

Just have like some mom moments interspersed in there and we actually went back to the same island where an organization called Little Pink Houses of Hope had sent her on her and my dad's last vacation before her death and we had no idea that that island was part of the cruise until we signed up and so it was weirdly I get chills talking about it because it was like all weirdly connected and yet it was just a very symbolic thing for us and very cool so when I heard there was such a thing as a bereavement Chris was like I gotta get signed up for that.

I think there's some information about that.

Well you know I think another thing I think as we're grieving we struggle to experience what life is going to be after our loss and still have to deal with the grief and I think one of the other things about the cruise what it does is that it helps people to recognize that you know joy and grief can coexist and that essentially that's what we all end up doing is figuring out how we're going to live with our grief right because it's never going to fully be gone.

I mean you'll experience it at different levels and at different times it'll feel different and as time goes on even that changes but it's there.

That loss was so significant that you will go you know I said I will walk the rest of the days on this earth without my child being there with me and she should have been I mean should have whatever but and so I will never forget that but then I needed to learn how to live my life with that being a part of who I am in a positive way and to make something good out of that.

You know I've often said I'm a perfect example of making lemonade out of lemons.

I truly am and so that's ultimately what we're left with and I've heard even just in background you know chatter and with the groups that we've had so far with the bereavement crews people saying wow I really I really I have this grief but I'm really relaxed and I'm really enjoying this.

I love this meal we're having.

I love you know that shore excursion was really good so I think that helps people to or it helps to facilitate that process a little bit that we need to get to a place or we will get to a place where we learn how to experience the grief and the joy at the same time and know that it's okay.

So I think that facilitates that process for some people.

I think you're absolutely right and can you kind of clue us in on how the bereavement crews has changed maybe since year one to now we're going on its third excursion?

Well I don't know if it's changed.

I think that it's you know the whole theme of it has always been the same as what I just described but I think that we've learned even from the as you would when you're doing something that you know that you've never done before there are some challenges about having this type of event of coming together of you know presenters and workshops and activities on a cruise ship.

So there's certainly some challenges so I think we've learned a lot that has to do with some of those just logistical challenges of how to actually you know run the best program that we can and you know there's just little things here and there that we've learned that we should be doing differently to help you know create more awareness to share in what we're doing with other people's like our presenters.

We're more you know engaged with our presenters and taking them on as more of like you know our partners in this to help to grow this program.

So I mean I think that we're still in our infancy stage.

I think you know this is our third cruise and we have doubled our numbers from the first to the second cruise and so we're hoping to do the same if not better for the third and again that's what it's about.

We will learn as we go along.

After the last cruise I called every passenger,

Every guest you know most of them didn't fill out an evaluation because they just forgot or what have you but I made it a point to have a conversation with every single guest who came with us and I said to them I want the good,

The bad,

The ugly,

The thing you don't want to tell me,

The thing that you should tell me.

I want it all because for me I want this program to just get better every year.

We hope to do this every year and so it's just going to be better for the people who find us and the people who come with us and so I see things changing you know everything's changing anyway in our worlds but I haven't seen any major changes but I just think we've learned and we've grown to make it better,

Bigger and better so that's been the most progress I can see in that area.

I know that in addition to coordinating the bereavement cruise you'll also be leading a workshop.

What are you going to be talking about on the ship that people can look forward to?

Well my topic is where is God and grief.

I think that a lot of times when people are going through something in their lives that loss of a loved one,

What we're talking about now but other things in life that sometimes we often question you know where is God in all of this and that's a real touchy subject.

I know a lot of like the support groups and those types of things they kind of limit people referring to God and religion and all that and I'm a Christian and so I wanted to bring that piece of me to our group and provide a workshop that was going to really talk about where is God in grief like we're in it's very interactive workshop where people can openly discuss you know what they believe and where they believe God is in grief and then hopefully at the end of that whole thing we're all going to just kind of realize that God is right there during the whole time and so hopefully during the workshop we're going to have people that are going to just grow into that and really recognize that and then the opportunity to be able to share what their thoughts and feelings are because again that's a real touchy subject for some people and I've wanted to do this workshop.

I wanted to do it on the first cruise and I didn't.

I wanted to do it on the second one and I didn't and I said well the third one guess what I'm going to do what I want.

I am plugging her in.

I got a calling to do that and I have a wonderful,

Wonderful workshop that I got from a lady who heads up the umbrella ministries.

It's a national organization for mothers who've lost a child and she had come to our city and did a presentation at a retreat that I was involved in and it was just a wonderful,

Fabulous,

Beautiful workshop and she told me that first I asked her if she would come on the cruise with us because she obviously would present it much more better than I would but she wasn't available and she said you are welcome to take it and use it and I'm like well I will pray on it that I do it justice and so I'm really excited about offering that because I think it is a topic that people think about,

People want to talk about and so hopefully we'll provide that opportunity for them to do just that.

It's so neat because oftentimes grief is already taboo but then you throw up religion in there and it's like whoa no can't have that conversation out loud and in mixed company because you never know who's going to have an objection or you know beliefs that they adhere very strongly to and the struggle with God and grief is very real.

So I'm excited to hear how this goes,

To hear people's you know revelations or conversations as they come into this.

I guess as we're wrapping up the show today I wonder if you could provide us with maybe one to three things that grief growers listening to this conversation could use to help them come back in their own lives whether it's a book or a blogger or a mentality that you used or continue to use in your work today that has helped you continue to come back from your loss.

Well you know I think one of the most important things that people need to do when they're grieving is they need information and whether that's information about what grief is,

How it's described in different you know books or support groups that people go to I think they really need the information and there is so much available out there and so I think for people to identify some of the things that they can do that can help them take care of themselves like in a physical and emotional sense you know and just try things you know educate yourself learn all you can about grief and about loss and how it affects people.

Support groups are a wonderful place for people to go to receive that support from others who have experienced a similar loss and unfortunately we don't see the numbers in the support groups that you know I used to look in the obituaries in our in our newspaper locally and then I would see the numbers coming through our support groups and be like wow there's so many people that don't even give that a chance and consider it an option but I always suggest that if you can find a support group that's relative to your loss to at least try it and go three times and after the third time you feel that's really not for you then maybe it's not or maybe you've gone at the wrong time or maybe try it again at another time so I just think the information the support and and then just allowing yourself to to to grieve and giving yourself that permission and then taking care of yourself in the midst of all of that you know there's a lot of different modalities that people can access you know there's yoga there's you know all those different things that people can do so just try try things that are going to help you to feel relaxed and help you to feel grounded a little bit and that's the best advice that I can give and again everybody's very different some things work from for some people and other things don't work and it's all okay because we're all very different but the point is trying you know put that one foot in front of the other and really make an effort to to educate yourself to learn to be amongst other people who have a similar loss and to allow yourself to grieve and not put any you know time limits on it or pressures on you all the should have could have's or would have's just just grieve sometimes you just have to grieve and allow yourself to do that because if you don't all you end up doing is stuffing that in and I will guarantee you it'll show itself someplace else which won't be too good so it's important to acknowledge it and honor it and you know obviously we pay the ultimate price for love and that's what grief is when we love somebody so deeply we lose them we're going to grieve their loss there's not any way of getting out of that there's no way going around it over it under it you just need to go through it and in your own way and in your own right and you need the support and the information to do that.

That was so beautifully said and actually harkens back to a previous podcast episode so if listeners were looking for more information on this you can check out episode 24 of coming back at the beginning of that show I actually talk about grief being like an involuntary scavenger hunt so it's like a big experiment that you've never wanted to do or be on but grief thrusts you to this place where all of a sudden you're trying on lots of new things and absorbing lots of new information so it's like an involuntary scavenger hunt.