I Hear You With Michael Sorensen

How often have you felt HEARD, I mean REALLY HEARD in your grief? Michael Sorensen is the author of I Hear You and we’re talking about the tool of emotional validation i.e. helping people feel heard and understood. This week, we’ll touch on why we’re all starving for validation, how to get friends and family to really hear us instead of trying to fix us, and what to do when it feels like listening to someone else’s story is a burden.

Transcript

Grief Growers,

I am so delighted to introduce you to Michael Sorenson,

Who wrote the book I Hear You,

Because as soon as I read it,

I knew the book wasn't about grief,

But I knew it was pertinent to grief,

Because I think so many of us in the aftermath of loss are looking to be seen,

Heard,

Understood,

Comprehended before any action happens.

And there's an incredible craving that I hear from all of you,

Especially when I hear from you in emails or come to me as clients or things like that,

Of like,

I wish people in my life would just listen before they felt compelled to do anything.

So Michael,

Welcome to the show and tell us a little bit about the inspiration for I Hear You and why it needed to be in the world as a book.

Sure thing.

Thanks for having me.

And I'm excited to talk to you today and to talk to your audience because I imagine most of your listeners,

If not all of your listeners are going to be saying,

Yes,

Oh my gosh,

Thank you.

I'm glad we're talking about this because my book,

As you mentioned,

Is all centered around a concept known as validation.

And validation essentially means helping somebody feel heard and understood.

And like you just mentioned,

Shelby,

When we're going through a difficult time,

When we're struggling with grief,

That's what we need more than anything else,

Right?

We need to feel heard,

We need to feel appreciated and understood,

Not necessarily having fixed,

Having fixes thrown our way,

Or assurance even thrown our way just yet.

And so a little bit of background on me,

I won't go too far into it.

So we can spend time on the meat of the conversation.

But I actually learned about validation and all of these related principles through years of therapy.

About 10 years,

10 years ago,

Or so,

I started seeing a therapist to get help working through a number of different things in my life.

And through all of that,

I came away with a whole slew of valuable life and relationship skills that I had no idea about prior to meeting with my therapist.

And one skill in particular was this concept of validation.

And what was so funny to me is that as I was learning it,

I started applying it and I had experience after experience of seeing just how powerful it was,

And really seeing how starved we are as a human race,

You could say,

For validation.

And I started trying to find ways to share it with my friends and my family and explain it.

And they would say,

Well,

What are you talking about?

And I tried to find books and articles.

And while I could find a few online,

None of them really taught it in the way that I felt was most valuable and most applicable.

And so long story short,

I felt compelled to write that book myself,

Self-published a couple of years ago.

And it has been very well received.

It's frankly very humbling to me and very exciting,

Because now hundreds of thousands of people are grasping onto this as well and saying,

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

This makes sense.

This is one of the foundational elements of true connection.

I love that because it's like I took something that I understood,

But then it didn't exist on a wider scope.

And so I just made it possible.

I think that's the mission of so many authors.

I know that you know that I've published a book called Permission to Grieve in the last year and I kept having these conversations on permission.

And I was like,

Why has nobody written a book about this?

And I was like,

I guess I will.

Because it just kept coming up over and over again.

And I want to talk about this notion of being starved for validation.

And so I wonder if there are any signs or even symptoms of somebody who's starved for validation because I think a lot of the world,

Especially media tabloids or online social media spaces,

See it as,

Oh,

They're just seeking attention.

And I wonder if you have any insight as to what being starved looks like.

Like,

Oh,

This is what you would call a bid for attention right now.

Sure,

Sure.

So I talked,

Shelby,

As you'll remember early on in my book about an experience where I was speaking with a woman who was grieving.

She was going through a difficult period of loss for her.

It was the divorce of her parents,

Though she had also just found out that her brother was diagnosed with cancer.

And I think it was a week or two prior,

Both she and her mom had been in a pretty serious car accident.

And I was speaking with her.

This was a casual first date.

And I didn't expect to get into anything deep per se.

As you usually do not on first dates,

But then it happens.

Tell me about your life story.

What are you dealing with right now?

That's not where I was going with it.

And yet she was so closed off as we were talking and I couldn't figure out what was going on,

But she would give me these short one word answers.

And basically I just thought,

Well,

She's not into me.

Okay.

I misread the situation.

I'll take her home.

And I ended up asking her a question about her family.

And that's where she indicated that it was a sensitive subject.

And then I could tell that there was something deeper at play here.

It wasn't necessarily about me.

And I gently pressed and she said,

Well,

My parents are in the middle of a divorce.

Then I thought,

Ah,

There you go.

And I said,

Oh my gosh,

I'm so sorry.

And she said,

Oh,

It's okay.

It's fine.

You know,

And she just brushed it off.

She put on a pretty unconvincing tough girl face.

And,

And this is where Shelby,

To answer your question directly signs that people are starved of validation.

In this particular instance,

She was closing herself off.

She was no longer willing to be vulnerable with people because everybody she talked to tried to fix it.

Everybody she talked to try to give her advice or assurance instead of just listening to her and letting her just vent and complain and just talk.

And ultimately that's what I was able to give to her at that and that evening.

And we spent the next couple of hours talking about it because to her response of,

Oh,

It's fine.

It's not that big of a deal.

I said,

No,

That's gotta be incredibly difficult.

I can't even imagine what you're going through.

And then she opened up and she said,

Yeah,

Actually it really sucks.

And then she started going on explaining to me how invalidated she felt by all these people.

So the signs are all over the place for people who are in tune emotionally.

When you're talking with somebody,

Most of the time people will offer one little bit of vulnerability,

One little bit for connection,

Like you said,

Drawing on John Gottman's research to basically say,

I want to share something,

But am I safe to do so with you?

And when we recognize that,

And when we are able to respond with validation instead of advice or assurance,

That opens the door to deep and lasting connection.

This was one of my favorite stories from your book because I'm like,

Of course this would happen on a first date.

But then also it's something that's so similar in talking about life with grief,

Because for so many people,

This pain or this need to be seen and heard on an emotional level is literally just below the surface.

And people are constantly,

I get this image of like a fly fishermen casting a lure.

People are constantly casting to see,

Is it safe here?

Can I fish in these waters?

Are people gonna respond in an emotional way?

Or are they just gonna try and fix me?

And it's really tricky to tell if you don't know the language that people use to try and get a bid for attention.

And so I know in my world,

People will say the default of,

Hi,

How are you?

Or,

Hi,

How's it going?

And I've had to teach myself to say,

Ah,

It's okay,

But I'm struggling with XYZ right now.

And for me,

That's a bid for connection or a bid for attention.

And if they respond in a positive way or tell me more about that,

Or something like that,

I'm like,

Okay,

Now it's safe to continue.

But for people who are people who don't respond well,

Or that's really tough,

Your assignment for today is XYZ.

And they kind of just brushed across and move on.

I'm like,

Okay,

Not a safe place moving on.

And I wonder,

And this might be a tricky or a tough question to ask for you.

How can we seek out people who are safe for us?

And or is there a way for us as the seekers of connection,

To get people to understand us better without feeling shut down?

Because I feel so much in the aftermath of loss,

We look for validation emotionally from friends and family,

And all of a sudden,

In loss,

They're not really able to provide it where it seems like they either used to before,

Or we just thought they were good at it.

And then all of a sudden,

It's like those skills vanished,

Or we're realizing that they never really existed.

And so we keep seeking connection and validation from people who just aren't good at it.

And I wonder if there's a way to,

To speak to friends and family and tell them,

Hey,

You're not listening without physically having to shake them.

Right,

Right.

It's a it's a tricky question.

It's a tricky situation,

Because it's very situation dependent.

And,

You know,

In general,

Though,

And I talked about this in my book,

There is a lot of value in teaching people about validation.

So one of the trickiest things that we often face is that we as the grievers,

We as the seekers of validation,

Aren't often aware that that's what we're wanting.

And so I think back often to my childhood,

I had moments when,

I think,

Speaking,

Frankly,

I wonder why I was so comfortable confiding in my mother,

But not so much to my father.

And I love them both.

They both love me,

There was no question.

And yet,

As I started going to therapy,

And I started looking at validation and everything,

I realized,

Oh,

My gosh,

It's because my mom was naturally a better validator,

She would withhold advice,

And she would withhold the assurance and she would listen to me first and show that she understood and helped me not feel crazy for feeling whatever it was that I was feeling.

And my father on the flip side,

Does what frankly,

I still tend to do,

Which is try to fix it right away.

And again,

It's coming out of a place of love.

And yet he didn't realize that in that moment,

I was getting frustrated.

And the funny thing is,

I didn't know why I was getting frustrated,

I would get defensive,

You know,

So I'd come to him complaining or venting or wanting validation,

Though,

I didn't know it by name at the time.

And he saw it as a request for advice.

And so,

You know,

In his mind,

Well,

Why else would he be coming to me if he didn't want a solution to the problem?

So he tries to give me a solution,

I start getting defensive,

Right?

Because I'm not feeling heard.

Instead,

I'm feeling like I'm trying to be fixed.

And so I start pushing back.

And so then he starts getting upset or frustrated,

Because he's like,

Why are you so ungrateful?

I'm trying to help you.

Why are you here?

And we do this little dance back and forth.

And so when we are sell,

It starts with us first putting a word to it and going,

Okay,

That is what I want right now.

I want validation.

So now as I'm approaching my sibling,

Or my friend,

Or my parent,

And I,

I start talking with them,

And they start shooting back with advice,

Depending on your relationship,

I really recommend having a candid conversation with them and educating them.

It's difficult in the moment sometimes.

So again,

In a perfect world,

They will have learned about it already.

They,

This is not a shameless plug for my book,

But I wrote the book,

So people would become familiar with it,

Right.

So in certain instances,

Say,

Hey,

You know,

I've been reading this book,

And it's really helping me understand myself.

It would mean a lot to me if you would skim it,

You know,

Or if you would,

You know,

Read some articles online about this,

Because I'm realizing that's what I need in this moment.

And most people,

If they care about you,

They're open to that.

And then they go,

Oh,

Well,

I want to help you.

So what is this you're talking?

Oh,

Okay,

Validation.

Okay,

Interesting.

And hopefully,

They can start to learn how to support you in that way.

One of my favorite images online is of a,

It's either a tweet or a screenshot from Tumblr,

Something that gets circulated again and again,

Over social media platforms.

And it's this,

It's this man who's learned,

He's like,

I've learned to ask my wife if she wants advice,

Or if she just wants me to listen,

And it's totally changed my life.

And I think that's a really short,

Succinct synopsis of like,

Here's,

I hear you in one tweet,

Or one post or whatever.

And I drew this little picture,

A lot of my listeners know I take notes as I'm interviewing guests.

And I drew this picture of like two little Sims standing next to each other,

If you've ever played this computer game,

And one has a speech bubble that says bid for connection.

And so it's the complaint or the vent or the problem or the grief that they're experiencing.

And then the other one who's opposite them has four options.

So it's like in gameplay,

You can choose one of four answers to this,

You can choose to ignore it,

You can choose to offer advice,

You can choose to parrot it back exactly,

Or you can validate.

And I think all of those each have their own set of consequences.

But the only one that makes people truly feel heard,

Is that validation of which you speak.

I love that.

I love that image.

Isn't that funny?

I just literally doodled that while you're talking because this other chapter of your book was another of my favorites,

Because I think a lot of especially entrepreneurial spaces and therapy spaces and counseling spaces talk about parroting.

And so in order to show you understand somebody,

You literally say what they said back to them,

But there's something missing in there and that there's not like an emotional comprehension.

And so when you were like,

Just to be clear,

Validation is not parroting.

That totally blew up in my world because I'm like,

Everything I see everywhere just says,

Oh,

I'm so sorry that you're angry.

When somebody says I'm angry.

I'm so sorry that you're angry.

I'm like,

You literally just said what I said back to me.

Now,

Who's saying what to who I feel like I'm talking to myself.

And so it doesn't feel like a conversation.

That was one of my favorite parts of your book.

So can you speak more on the difference between parroting and true emotional validation?

Absolutely.

Your listeners might also have heard as reflective listening,

You know,

Is another term for that.

And it's exactly that it's,

It's repeating back what the other person just said to you.

And it has value in it.

And it's widely taught in business trainings,

You know,

In the corporate circles as a way to improve your listening.

The issue is with it is exactly what you just identified,

Shelby is that it feels mechanical.

It can come across as inauthentic because when I say,

Gee,

I'm so frustrated because this coworker won't leave me alone.

And the person I'm talking to says,

Oh,

So I hear that you're frustrated because your coworker won't leave you alone.

Like,

Well,

Yes,

But like,

Okay,

You're listening.

Thank you.

Like I recognize that now.

But that's not what I wanted.

You know,

It's like to hear your voicemail again,

Press four.

Exactly.

And so that that is one point that I drive home in my book and in my teaching is that most people don't question whether or not we comprehend the words we say,

They want to know that we understand the emotion that they're feeling.

And that to me is the ultimate difference between reflective listening and validation.

It's that reflective listening just shows them Yeah,

Okay,

Here are the words you're saying makes sense.

Validation requires empathy,

It requires that you identify and connect with an emotion.

And then you offer justification for feeling that emotion.

So instead of saying,

I understand that your coworkers upsetting you say,

Oh,

My gosh,

That would drive me crazy.

And that satisfies those two requirements for validation.

One,

You identified the frustration.

And two,

You offered some form of justification,

Which in this case is simply you saying,

Oh,

My gosh,

I would feel the same way.

That is validating.

Yes.

And I know a lot of people struggle with grief,

Because they're like,

Well,

I've never felt this intensity of grief before.

So how can I possibly emotionally relate?

And in my brain,

I try to kind of think of emotions like a color wheel,

Where like the total opposites of each other are joy and despair.

But then despair has a lot of neighbors next to it,

Sadness,

Depression,

Being upset,

Feeling perturbed,

And then joy has happiness,

Elation,

Whatever.

And so there's kind of this full wheel spectrum of emotions.

And so if somebody says,

You know,

My co workers bugging me,

They won't leave me alone.

I'm like,

Okay,

I'm not quite sure what I know what bugging by a co worker feels like.

But just for the sake of example,

I'm like,

I know what being bugged kind of feels like,

But the closest thing for me is annoying,

Or being driven crazy or something like that.

And so I can say something similar back like,

Oh,

My God,

That would drive me crazy.

Oh,

My God,

That sounds so annoying.

And that's almost like,

You get to check your work,

You get to double check.

I'm like,

Just to clarify,

This is the emotion you're telling me,

Right?

And then they can come back and be like,

Well,

It's not so much annoying as it is distracting.

And then that conversation can continue in that direction.

Exactly.

And I love that you pointed out instances where you can't relate,

Because we're all going to run into that,

Right?

Again,

If we're going to be dealing with a very heavy situation,

Chances are good,

Very few people we talked to are going to have felt similarly.

And so so we flipped the tables.

And if you're that person trying to comfort and trying to validate somebody,

I suggest to me exactly what you just said there,

Which is giving your best effort,

You know,

Almost guessing at the emotions.

And so I if you had can't relate,

I strongly recommend admitting that because some people are afraid to do that,

Thinking that it's going to come across as helpful.

In my experience,

It's the polar opposite.

It's very validating,

Because it shows respect to the other person.

And so Shelby,

You know,

If you're dealing with the death of a loved one,

And I clearly cannot relate exactly to how you feel,

Because I'm not in your head,

I can say,

Oh,

My gosh,

I'm so sorry.

You know,

Pause for a little bit and say,

I honestly cannot even imagine what you're going through.

And that right there is validating.

And then as throughout the conversation,

We can do what you suggested,

Which is say,

I mean,

Are you feeling scared,

You know,

Upset,

Like distraught,

You know,

Throw out some examples there.

And then like you said,

And they'll take that,

And they'll they'll run with it,

They'll correct you.

And they'll say,

No,

I'm actually feeling,

You know,

Terrified.

And then that gives you more to work with for the conversation and helps you better connect with them.

Yeah,

And this actually opens the doorway to a different conversation that floats around the grief space.

And I don't know if you're familiar with this,

Michael,

But there's a conversation,

It's kind of 5050.

Some people are really okay with the phrase,

I can't imagine what you're going through,

Because it acknowledges,

Yeah,

You really can't.

And then there's another group of people and I don't know which side of the fence I sit on,

Which is why I bring up this conversation.

There's another group of people who are almost upset by or offended by I can't imagine what you're going through,

Because it feels like a distancer.

Like,

I already know,

You can't relate to what I'm going through,

But now you've said it.

And so it feels like a further way to disconnect from now you really can't empathize with my experience.

And so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that,

But it's something that's been revolving around in the space.

Sure.

Well,

To me,

It all comes down to the way in which you say it,

You know,

Experts estimate that as much as 70% of our communication is nonverbal,

Meaning its body language,

Its tone of voice,

It's our facial expressions.

And so when we say,

You can say the exact same thing.

And you could say,

Gee,

I don't even,

I can't even relate to that.

It can feel a little dismissive and distancing,

Like you said,

If you say,

Oh,

My gosh,

I cannot even imagine.

It comes across as much more respectful,

And almost reverent to their struggle and their circumstance.

And so,

At least in my experience,

And in the experience of those that I work with,

I find that it's quite validating,

Because more often than not,

People say,

Oh,

My gosh,

I know exactly how you feel.

Or,

You know,

Here's really what you should do,

Right?

And they start to go into those invalidating statements.

And that's very off putting.

That's very disrespectful.

Because we never know exactly what someone's going through.

Yeah.

And I think we're nodding my head right now.

I'm like,

Yeah,

No one really knows,

Do they?

Yeah.

And so if you if you say that,

And again,

You do it in a sincere,

Respectful tone,

I believe they will take it with a lot of gratitude,

Because because most people are expecting you to invalidate them.

And so when you instead turn it on its head,

And you say,

Respect to you hats off to you,

I'm here for you.

And yet I respect that I don't know exactly what you're going through.

That's quite connecting and quite validating.

That's really beautiful.

And thank you for giving us I mean,

You literally just laid out some scripts there that people can use and that tip of,

You know,

Saying it in a students your fashion,

Whether it's in person or over the phone,

That tone of voice really helps drive that point home.

I know for me in my work,

Because the divide is so great,

And I never really know,

With my clients,

I'll say something like,

Like,

You know,

That isn't my story or my experience,

But I imagine that this is hell for you or like whatever emotion they literally just put on to me,

I'll kind of try and reflect back in a way.

And,

And it's a different way of saying,

I can't imagine what you're going through,

But it more acknowledges that I can't possibly walk in your shoes,

Or I can't possibly be standing in the same place that you are,

But here's as close as I can get.

And there's there's also a sincerity in that.

And it made me immediately jump to how do you approach validation on social media or on online spaces where people cannot hear tone of voice,

They can't see your eyeballs,

They don't really know what you're doing while you're texting on your phone,

Or putting something on Facebook of RIP or can't imagine what you're going through,

So sorry,

Whatever,

On your posts online,

Because I know,

Especially in our digital age,

So many more of us are getting grief support online,

Which is great,

And as a majority of the work that I do,

But be we're offering grief support online.

And so we're trying to be validating humans when we can't physically be next to each other.

I have a love hate relationship with social media.

I my background is in marketing.

So I love it from a marketer standpoint.

I really don't like it from a personal standpoint above and beyond the obvious ways of staying connected to people.

But that when I use the word connected loosely there,

Because as I'm sure you know,

I'm sure your listeners know,

It's tough to really connect with people over a digital platform only so that you can keep the you can keep the logistical connections there,

So to speak,

And you can keep up to date on what's going on.

If somebody posts something very difficult or a struggle or they're clearly reaching out for help.

I'm of the opinion that giving them a call is going to be the nicest thing you could do or finding a way to connect with them.

Again,

Not not every situation is going to warrant that not every situation is that going to be appropriate.

But I think it is difficult to offer real sincere,

I shouldn't say it that way.

Of course,

You can be sincere.

I think validation assurance,

Even sympathy stops a bit short when you can't have a true human to human connection when it's just text you're typing because like you said,

You can only control so much with certain emojis and italics and asterisks,

The emotion that you're trying to convey.

Beyond that you have to have vocal communication,

You have to have face to face,

Sometimes you have to have physical touch to really have that deeper connection there.

Yeah,

The phrase that just came to me was there's a life force that's missing.

And that's why I do so much here with podcasting because the sound of my voice is different than just seeing the words I type on a screen.

But then also it's why I transferred a video as well.

I'm like,

Here's my face.

This is as close as we're possibly going to get.

But it's live.

It's happening right now.

And we're all together.

And especially grief support around the world.

It's about as close as you can get.

But literally nothing has compared to and I will never forget memories that I've made in in person grief support courses where that there are other people who are crying,

Breathing,

Reaching for Kleenex,

Hugging each other,

Like it's just a different life force that lives in those spaces,

Which is I'm glad you touched on that.

Thank you.

Because I was like,

I'm gonna bat this question out because validation on social is hard because we can all have the scripts but it is that emotion that's kind of it goes to crickets a little bit.

Right,

Right.

Well,

And I deal with that from time to time.

And I post somewhat regularly on my blog articles diving deeper into validation and different scenarios and situations.

And of course,

I provide dialogue and some examples and scenarios.

And I do my best.

And yet inevitably,

I get an email or a comment saying this is horrible.

This is so disrespectful.

And I go back and I read through and I say,

Oh,

That's because they're reading it this way,

Right?

Not this way.

And I it's difficult.

And so I love what you how you refer to that as that life force,

That connection,

That energy.

And even over the phone,

Like you said,

You don't always have to be in person,

But there is something even just to the tone of our voice and just to the real time communication there that takes it 10 times farther than simple text on screen.

Now,

This might be a hot button question.

Because I sense and I feel like a lot of a lot of the world believes in this myth that taking time to truly listen,

Slow down,

Validate,

Take the bid for attention and give it your full attention takes a lot more energy and focus than if you just operate by Hey,

How are you?

I'm doing great.

Thanks for asking.

So do you ever run into like an emotional burnout or exhaustion or an inability to listen and or do you ever feel burdened by I am receiving too many bids for attention or commute connection?

Absolutely.

And I love that you asked the question,

Because it's one that I'm getting more and more often and starting to address more because it can be taxing.

Not always,

You know,

I'm a big proponent of authenticity,

You know,

And sincere empathy when we're talking to people.

And yet,

It's difficult if we're always taking on other people's burdens.

And so I'm a big proponent of boundaries,

And and of recognizing codependency.

So if if any of you,

You listeners are not familiar with codependency,

I strongly recommend you do some research on that there's articles on my website,

Or Google will bring up millions for you to read more about,

And then boundary setting.

And so if you are the person comforting or trying to help somebody going through a difficult time,

You do have the right to carve out some space for yourself.

And you can do that very kindly,

Very respectfully.

In fact,

The next podcast episode that I'll be posting is how to deal with people who are constantly complaining.

Because while there is a time and a space for validating people,

And for providing them that room to grieve,

Sometimes there comes a point when they've had the proper time,

You've given them all the validation you can,

And they are choosing to stay and wallow in despair rather than taking control and responsibility rather,

For their own happiness and starting to take action.

And so it's a very situation specific answer,

I suppose,

To boil it down to a short,

Simple answer.

Yes,

There are absolutely times when just those short transactional conversations make most sense.

You know,

If you're just walking in between meetings talking to a coworker,

Hey,

How are you?

Good.

How are you?

Good.

Well,

Good to see you.

And you're gone.

That's fine.

There are going to be times when you want to have a deeper conversation.

And then there are going to be times when you need to set some boundaries and say,

Listen,

I would love to talk more.

I'm I would be distracted right now if we tried,

Can we talk tomorrow?

Or if you take it one step further,

Again,

This is a can of worms we can talk about later,

Setting some boundaries and saying,

Listen,

I want to be there for you.

I want to help you.

And I'm feeling like I'm the venting box here.

Can you help me?

You know,

Can you help me understand what more I can do?

Or what are you going to do to get out of this situation?

It's difficult conversation,

But one that absolutely can and ought to be had to ensure that both parties are feeling full and energetic and connected.

I am so glad you said that because the first thing that jumped to my mind when you started talking about people who perpetually complain or do nothing but vent or or grievers who've had their time and space and then continue to choose to stay and wallow.

I'm like,

Usually that's not the case.

But what's actually happening is they're so thirsty,

And they found the person that's going to validate for them that they just put everything into one human,

Because they're like,

Nobody in my life validates me.

So this is going to be my person.

And then that person,

Poor thing is the container for all of their emotional dumping ground,

As opposed to somebody else who's trained at this like a like a listening therapist or like a grief professional or somebody else who can also take some of that not necessarily burden but just like dump out some of that container so it can be shared more in a space as opposed to somebody's receiving the onslaught of all of my grief.

But I remember being in that place.

And I remember being that starved for validation.

I think I had two people in the first six months after my mom died,

Where I was like,

You guys are my people and your phone's gonna ring off the hook.

And that's just the way it's gonna be.

And,

And lucky for me,

I was in a place where they did not push back on that at all.

But then there were these places where I started pulling back and I started going to grief support groups,

And I started finding communities online where I was like,

Okay,

There's more space for this than I thought there was.

And so they received less and less and less of my,

My bids for connection.

And so I think that's a bit of what people who are trying to support grievers experiences like,

Wow,

I think I'm the only person that you're talking to.

And that's,

That's another conversation worth having.

And yes,

You're right,

That it can be a can of worms of like,

Wow,

I'm feeling like this is a lot,

But I kind of like how you turn it around of like,

How can you enlist the grieving person to help you come up with a solution as opposed to just setting an ultimatum and shoving the door in their face,

Which is extremely hard for somebody who is already grieving to feel another loss in the form of a friend who disappears.

So I love this notion of a person supporting grieving person being like,

Hey,

I'm feeling overwhelmed.

How can you help me not feel so much and or maybe can I help you find somebody else to talk to?

Is there another space that we can find support for you?

Or is it okay if I step away for like 24 hours and then I reach out to you again on Sunday?

And I love this idea too of like,

I can't talk right now.

Can we talk tomorrow?

Because it reassures people that you that you give a shit,

Frankly,

About what they're going through.

And that leads me to my next question is what happens or how do we continue to validate people if we kind of fucked up the first time,

Like if we did not do a job,

A good job,

And we really either offended somebody or hurt their feelings or or slam that door in their face?

Sure.

Well,

It's kind of a funny question,

Because the solution is to validate the fact that you messed up.

Knowledge what they're likely feeling,

You know,

And I still do it,

You know,

It's funny because I wrote here I wrote the book on validation.

And yet I'm still hyper conscious or hyper aware of the fact that I am not always great at validating.

In fact,

Just just the other week I was talking to my wife and well,

She was talking to me and she was complaining about something at work.

And what did I do?

I gave her advice and I tried to help her fix it because to me in my mind,

Like this is easy,

Like,

Well,

You should just do this.

And she's like,

No,

No,

No.

Well,

How about you try that?

Well,

No.

And then to her credit,

She said,

Michael,

I just want you to validate me.

And I thought,

Oh,

That's embarrassing.

She knows your lingo.

You know,

And use it against you.

So you know,

In that moment,

And in subsequent moments,

I said,

You're right.

I'm sorry.

You know,

That's frustrating.

And I kind of laughed it off like I'm doing here.

Isn't that ironic?

And yet I've had multiple instances of that where I go back to somebody and I say,

Listen,

I,

I recognize that I wasn't very validating the last time we talked.

I'm sorry for jumping into advice.

Nobody likes unsolicited advice.

Can we talk more about it?

And every time the person's eyes usually get typically their eyes get a little big going,

Whoa,

That's odd.

I've never had somebody come back to me and acknowledge that.

But that's what happened.

But then be they're grateful and they're excited to talk and we can open up that dialogue more.

Yes,

Yeah.

And I love that you phrased it that way.

And again,

Gave us those scripts.

Thank you as whole podcast,

Guys.

I hope you're taking notes if you're not driving,

But like,

Holy crap,

This is just full of if you're not sure what to say,

Here's a great place to start.

And again,

I'm thinking about turning the tables too,

Because a lot of times as a grieving person,

I know that I disappeared,

I dropped the ball.

I was not a very good friend while I was grieving.

And these are kind of things that because of the immense blinders that grief puts onto our faces when we're grieving,

It's like I can only focus on staying alive right now.

But as I emerged from being in those,

That place of acute grieving,

I kind of looked around,

It's like,

Oh,

I've been a bad friend.

And so I reached out to people probably a year,

Even two years after my mom died.

And I was like,

Hey,

I know I fell off the grid.

And I had every reason to fall off the grid.

But I really care about what's happened to you in the time since can we schedule time to catch up and they would always be so surprised if like,

Wow,

I thought you were gone forever.

And so this sense of somebody's caring enough to reopen the door is really important.

And I did have some people be like,

It's it's been a little too long.

And they didn't say it this way.

But we were kind of okay with things tapering off or petering out because they were they needed to be done.

But other people were like,

Yes,

I'd love to pick up where we left off and then got to reengage with the relationship.

But it's just really amazing what happens when we when we have the vulnerability to to open that door again.

So I guess that's the next place I want to go that just popped into my brain.

What do we do if we're scared to validate somebody or scared to open that conversation?

Maybe some logical tips for like,

Why validating is a better idea than just either not doing anything or giving advice?

Yeah,

Maybe some tips for that.

Sure,

Sure.

So,

So I like to look at validation as a tool.

Maybe that sounds a bit detached.

I don't mean it that way.

It's a tool for genuine connection.

So it's,

Of course,

Not a way to manipulate somebody.

It's not a way to control somebody.

It's not a way to quote unquote,

Make them feel better.

It's a way to show that you hear them and that you appreciate and you respect them.

And so one of the,

Well,

The number one question I get whenever I do this in corporate trainings or one on one or what have you is,

Well,

I don't want to validate somebody if I don't agree with them.

You know,

So if somebody is grieving,

Maybe they're saying,

You know,

My mom never loved me anyway,

And my life's horrible.

And you know,

Whatever it is,

I'm shooting stuff out,

But whatever it is,

If they disagree with how that person's seeing things,

Then they think,

Well,

I can't validate because validating is agreeing,

Right?

And it's not.

And that's the number one key takeaway that I try to drive home with people as the validation simply means I understand where you're coming from.

It doesn't mean I agree with how you're seeing things.

And I give plenty of examples in my book and on my website for sake of time,

I won't get into them here.

But if you're feeling resent or resistant to validating somebody because you don't agree,

Recognize that that's not what you're doing.

In fact,

If you disagree with someone,

And if you want to help them see a different point of view,

Validating is your best friend.

Because until they hear heard and understood,

They will not hear or understand you.

And so when you validate them,

And you say,

That's super difficult,

I,

Of course,

You'd feel that way,

Especially if you didn't even come back and apologize to you after they go,

Oh,

Okay,

She understands me,

He understands me,

Then you can follow up and say,

And I do have a few thoughts on the matter,

Do you mind if I share?

And then then that gives them a chance to ask for that feedback or that advice.

And they are much,

Much more open to hearing that.

So if you're feeling resistant for that reason,

Look at it as in fact,

A tool to help you offer a different bit of insight or direction to the person you're talking with.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And I think too,

I think the fear is,

Oh,

My God,

I have to bear my entire heart all at once.

And I'm like,

No,

You can do this and really,

Really baby steps.

And it's more about listening than it is pouring or giving of yourself,

I think.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And like I said,

It can all be boundaried.

And it's trickier to set those boundaries.

Because again,

Like,

Like you said,

Shelby,

One thing we don't want to do is make them feel like we're not pulling away,

Or that we're done talking to them.

But there are tactful ways to do that even down to just simply validating first sincerely,

And then asking more questions.

For example,

What what are you going to do about it?

Or you know,

Or what are you thinking or most of the conversation,

Like you said,

Shelby is on them,

Because they need they just need a listening ear,

They need somebody to allow them that space and that respect to share what's on their heart.

And the more we give of that,

They naturally heal it nine times out of 10 people figure things out on their own,

You know,

Or they end up looking to find more professional help.

And that's the gift that we give them.

It's not always the solution.

It's simply allowing them the space to process the emotions that they're feeling.

I literally just had this phrase jump into my brain.

I don't need to be the solution.

I just need to be the space.

Love that.

Yeah,

Isn't that cool?

Really good.

I'm gonna write that one down.

Please do.

Oh my gosh,

This has just been so cool.