Giving People Back To Themselves With Cathy Cheshire

Cathy Cheshire wants you to change your mind, AKA the thoughts you think about grief. We're talking about the losses that challenged her to develop mindfulness, including the deaths of her two sons, and the belief that grievers can heal themselves. We're covering what it feels like to be punished for telling the truth about your loss, learning to love the people who could not love us, and how grief work is essentially a practice of "giving people back to themselves."

Transcript

Kathy thank you so much for joining us today on the show and For being so willing to share your lost story and for telling us how you're going to be involved with the upcoming Bereavement cruise and I will start off our interview today the same way I start off all of our coming back interviews by asking you to share with us your lost story I'm very grateful to be here Shelby and so thankful for what you're doing.

I I have had a lifetime of loss 20 years ago as adults an older sibling and I talked about babysitter abuse when we were young We were then ostracized by our parents and three younger siblings and I haven't seen them since I had at the same time a Family tried to die by suicide and struggle with addiction and I felt very lost.

I grew up in a very strict family and My mother was depressed and anxious.

My father was domineering and I was desperate for love So I ended up going through three divorces Eleven years ago my only child from the second marriage died in a car accident when he was only 16,

I Had put my whole life into that relationship with him.

We were so close It was the first time I had experienced unconditional love a Year before he died.

I met my fourth wonderful husband because I learned that I needed to be patient and Discover what a person was really like and he held my hand Through darkness.

I used to think of love as flowers and trips and kisses and I really experienced an amazing love Because he pretty much waited for me to come back To fully living which took three years.

I barely existed So his he had a lot of experience with grief because his first wife died at age of 36 She went in the hospital and died a week later from an infection When their only child was 11,

So I met him when he was 18 years old And he really struggled with life.

He struggled with that death and He missed his mom.

We had a great relationship but he wanted his biological mom they were close and He ended up also getting an infection that at 29 years old Ravaged his body was in ICU for a month When we finally thought he was getting better a blood clot caused a stroke and he died at 29 years old I Listening to all of these losses and the word the phrase You said desperate for love really?

Jumped out at me,

So I'm kind of There's no way to really tie a bow on all of this because loss is such a a messy and an ongoing Process just like grief is but I'm curious I wrote down What did you used to believe about love and what is true for you now?

I?

I really didn't know what it was because I didn't have it.

I thought I had it I pretended I had it.

I pretended we were the Brady Bunch.

I was this happy soul inside but because of the way My family was which is because of the way,

You know,

My parents parents were it just went down generation to generation I shut down So I just knew I I wanted to find it and I would get feelings of love from watching a show or reading a book and I want to experience it myself in real life and As I explained with my husband,

I I that was that's one of my greatest life's lessons is Is love that unconditional love?

He he knew me for a year as this vivacious happy person who was a dedicated mom and had this career and friends and and then I just I just didn't know how to deal with grief and The love he gave me the support he gave me He is a naturally resilient person.

He knows how to express emotion He would hug me.

I wasn't used to hugging.

He would hug me and not let go and that Felt like love but but love is is Seeing now my definition of love is that it seemed a good in a person Even when they're not showing it and I've been able to come to a place with that of with my parents I have huge compassion for my parents and I see that they Never were taught how to love I imagine what their childhood was.

I don't know why I Was born so motivated to figure it out But that's okay.

I I I think life's about love and I think we can find a loving space for anybody anything any situation and It's just really contributed to how amazingly I thrive after all this loss I Wrote down what you said love is seeing the good in a person even when they're not showing it And yes,

This is this isn't this is a new definition of love for me So my mind is kind of like pardon me while my mind gets blown On the other side of this microphone I'm curious to talk more about Your childhood and coming back from that experience I know the first question was kind of a listing off of your losses,

But it sounds like You and some or all of your siblings experienced abuse at the hands of a babysitter and were not believed and I kind of want to go into Something that often happens in grief stories,

Which is being punished or ostracized for Telling the truth of an experience It's a horrible feeling It fills it fills I Had to let it go trying to figure it out,

But it really was my first experience with grieving Those still alive Good phrasing.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm grieving those still alive is what I had to do because I couldn't Shut down and just pretend and go back to being that robotic person.

I I wanted to heal and Healing for me didn't mean pretending nothing ever happened and So I still can't fathom a Parent denying their child.

They not only called us liars They criticized us They dug up whatever they could To I believe try to make themselves feel better because they didn't know how to Support us they didn't say one kind thing and I was a really angry for a number of years.

I hated them.

That's the first time I experienced hate and Boy,

Is that a driving force to have you figure out?

How to Digest this in your life and go on and the way you always wanted to being happy and Having love and it was really hard but I've learned to only focus on what I can control I can't control them and If they ever approached me in a loving way,

I'm there but I had to break away because I couldn't continue to be Beat down when I already Was it the lowest I could be realizing?

You know what happened?

So I I am in a place now where I Want to help others?

No,

But nobody was there for me when that happened Nobody nobody except my husband was and he didn't know how to help me in a way Grief professionals would like those that are gonna be on the cruise.

I didn't have any help So it motivates me to want to help people Because I think when you're confused The pain can be worse You know,

It's life.

Life is messy and stuff happens and people get lost but I'm in control of my journey And that's been the biggest lesson through all of this.

It's learning how to be in control.

And this is what I teach others It's not just understanding grief.

It's removing limiting beliefs It's very it's very hard to think good of yourself when your parents reject you When something happened that was out of your control I had a lot of low self-confidence that I didn't realize till I started learning about it And some people will say don't let anybody tell you how to grieve and don't take advice well Learn take information in as much as you can and then keep what works for you That's how I turn my life around That's how I got to a point where not only do I thrive but I can't help not help others I give them information in case it will inspire them not to do exactly what I did But to say wow She's she shows the possibility.

I can be in this low place,

But I can also have a wonderful life I love your response to this and I'm so interested in your idea of of control being in control of your life because there's a control that's that's insistent and stifling and almost like Can't breathe like too much structure kind of control and then there's a control of Like responsibility like ownership like the power to choose which is something I've talked about on this podcast before Can you talk about how you went from a place that was so?

Out of control this this loss of family this ostracizing of family three divorces the loss of your only Child these these these things that are so ingrained as out of control spiraling dark spaces and Came to a place or maybe are still coming to a place However,

That can be phrased for you where you feel like you are Are in a space of that control and what does that mean for you?

The greatest Greatest lesson I learned came from neuroscientists not grief experts Came from neuroscientists nobody ever teaches you How your thoughts work how your mind works and it's much simpler than people think So we have our conscious mind in our subconscious mind our subconscious minds like a supercomputer and it keeps track some Some think before you were born of every single experience you've ever had Then there's your conscious mind which is mindfulness and the things you're aware of This is your free will This is the gift you've been given to be control in control of your life So when I started thinking I hate my family,

I hate my family.

I hate my family I built a pattern in my subconscious mind my beautiful wonderful subconscious mind was just giving me back what I created and those Subconscious patterns can feel so strong They are real and you feel like you can't change them and that's how I was robotic and that's how people get stuck in grief Because they think they're not in control when I learned Waving through the neuroscientists scientific language When I learned that all I had to do was create new patterns that I wanted that those unhealthy Unconstructive thought patterns would fade into my unconscious mind and all it took was determination and patience and Once I I realized that really works I applied it to my whole life I'm mindful most every moment and I have created Thought patterns in my subconscious mind that I want not from my family not from society Not from TV not from people who want to give me advice from my own heart and soul and the most Amazing thing is once I started doing that these inspirations started coming It's like when I held on to all this negative energy.

I couldn't feel those Inspirations now I live by them people call them by different names some say that's God some universal intent Universal intelligence the quantum field Angels they are Angels There is this Universal and this is this is also connected to those who talk about From that book the secret manifesting You know,

There's this universal and intelligence now that guides me and I never knew about her Practice any of this it just kind of happened and now that's how I live every day It's it's it's just an amazing way to exist and that makes me feel in control And I don't have to worry about what's gonna happen what had happened I'm living in the moment making decisions based on my desires and programming that subconscious mind with what I really want and love and believe So if this is the first time that grief growers are hearing this concept of reprogramming the subconscious mind We've talked about the brain a lot on this podcast,

But maybe not the actual act of programming or reprogramming What are some first steps that they can take to maybe either recognize?

These stories these beliefs that they're telling themselves and or Start to shift them to a place where they feel like they have more control over these thoughts This is something that I refer to as mind circling and grief growers will have heard me say that what I teach people to do is Pay attention To especially their idle time You know how many times have you driven somewhere for 20 minutes and then got there and felt awful and realized?

Oh,

Geez,

I've been thinking about this terrible thing that whole 20 minutes be mindful of idle time And then have some sort of reminder when you're first starting to do this you can set an alarm you can use post-it notes You can tie a string on your finger.

You got to get into the habit of being mindful and then When you are paying attention,

I use the trigger of not feeling well to why am I not feeling well?

It's always an unconstructive thought so oftentimes we have Certain thoughts and I say unconstructive because instead of positive and negative Someone recently I'm reading a great book calls it Flowing thoughts or resisting thoughts.

However,

You want to look at it.

What thoughts are hurting you?

What thoughts can you prove or not prove that are true?

What thoughts are causing you suffering and you can make a list of those?

Then to change the way you think about it You've got to be prepared now when those old thoughts you don't want Aren't from your own desires when they come up Embrace them don't fight them because what you resist persists so that thought comes up But you're in control of your mind and you can practice this think of someone you love think of someone who frustrates you You can control what you choose to think about So you've got to be prepared When those thoughts come up with affirmations With a gratitude list with a book a podcast a tv show Something that is constructive that you like and love that you're going to feed Into your subconscious mind to replace those Thought patterns that you do not want where people get Have trouble is It takes a little while but not months Okay,

It takes a little while.

And so if you're not patient and you succumb to those Thought patterns you don't want you're reinforcing them every time you do for me understanding how this process worked Works hugely motivated me To and and the more I did it the more it worked the happier I was the more inspirations I received I will never go back to being a prisoner of My subconscious thought patterns that I created because I didn't know any better I didn't know one taught me that and the reason grief people don't come across this information is because Neuroscientists don't come up when you type in grief help I just happen to come across the information and say Huh?

That makes sense I really appreciate that answer in you and i'm wondering I want to transition into Maybe what you were doing 20 30 years ago and how you got started in the grief field I was a perfectionist not realizing it back then to deal with my Lack of self-confidence I became a ceo of a huge medical practice with the surgery center and Built work my way up in health care and when my son died I realized That was not my purpose or my passion.

There's so much politics in I always thought I was being the The good one taking on the jobs.

Nobody else wanted but those were the ones where you really had to deal with people who Who weren't paralleled with your moral and ethical beliefs?

So I When I shut down after my son died for three years till I got sick of that I I knew I wasn't going to go back to health care and I I started getting inspired to help people with grief.

In fact,

I started getting inspired to write a book because After that three years being a business person I Thought I'm gonna make a life action plan That's how I'd go into medical practices and I'd turn them around everybody's trying to do everything at once in a life action plan You prioritize and the strategy is one thing at a time what you focus on you get so I took every area of my life and I Focused on it and it was working And I was having more joy and happiness and feeling alive than I ever dreamed I would And so I started thinking of writing a book about it and then you hear people say this book came out of me That's what happened to me I This book came out of me thriving after the death of a child.

Here's how I did it You might not do it the same way,

But when you prioritize about your life and take one thing at a time you will accomplish what you want to accomplish and That's what interested me in the subconscious mind stuff I thought that's how that worked.

I was reprogramming my subconscious mind by focusing on this life I wanted but I didn't even realize that's what I was doing So I like you Have said to me before I want to help Get provide to others resources support Inspiration that I didn't have and I know would have prevented me from Those three years that I was really self-destructive.

I just didn't care about life.

I didn't want to live I was too afraid to die I I love it and people will ask me isn't that stressful isn't isn't helping people with grief.

Isn't that depressing?

It is the most wonderful Rewarding I have goosebumps right now.

It is the it is my purpose.

It is my passion and I I I just Love playing a small part and giving people back to themselves.

Oh say that again say that again.

That was so beautiful I Love playing a small part of giving people back to them So I'm like cheering over here.

This is wonderful at that gate.

Okay that gave me chills because in in grief,

There's there's such a Stigma of okay who can fix me?

Okay,

Who can yeah make this all better for me?

Okay,

Who can make this go away and I'm like no No,

That's not why I'm here.

I'm here to remind you that you're still here Yes,

And you're powerful Wow,

That was so well phrase.

That was a that was amazing That's gonna be my huge takeaway from this.

It's not just probably so much joy.

Oh My gosh people have the power to heal themselves We just tell ourselves things that aren't true.

I can't have joy again.

I Can't get over this.

It's not about getting over it.

It's about Continuing to live as we're supposed to live,

You know,

No matter what happens life's unpredictable It absolutely is and there's no there's no guaranteeing.

I tell folks on the podcast all the time I said I will never promise you that life will be better after loss I can tell you it will look different and you have a lot of power and how that looks but In terms of making it better.

You don't know when grief will strike again And will will totally disassemble your life So really quickly before we get into how you got involved with the bereavement Chris I just have one last question and that is how do you take these?

Affirmations and this mental rewiring with you into a world that is so focused on fear and on uncertainty I've had to learn that I Have to avoid certain things So I I used to think you know,

I was born a sensitive loving person I feel energy some people call that an empath and I learned Thanks to dr.

Judith Orloff That being a sensitive person is a blessing.

I used to try to teach myself to be hard and I can You know,

I can watch that movie and watch that new show watch that new show and I protect myself now and I go where it feels right and sometimes that's a Woman who fell and is laid on the ground in front of a restaurant I'm walking into while she's terrified waiting for 9-1-1.

I'm holding her hands and letting her talk to me and other times it's saying no to something that's constructive for me to listen to be a part of and That for me where I am right now my life is balancing that is something that I'm super focused on.

I I Still work on the listening to myself and not what others think I should do think be and And it really makes a huge difference in my life.

I say no to things I used to feel I had to say yes to everything so it sounds like a lot of it is Setting healthy boundaries,

But also remembering that not everything that exists out there in the world is for you Hmm exactly and it's healthy boundaries for me and yet respecting others boundaries I I Don't have to be like my husband who can You know watch horror movies and and play Call of Duty video games I Focus on what works for me and That again is being mindful of what's making me not Feel right and is this something that I want to be doing right now?

Or do I need to exit if I were to bring my mother into this conversation?

She she's like me She's like I need a lot of fluff and I'm in that camp too.

I can't take a lot of You know horror movies even like criminal minds anything.

That's like yeah,

You know these situations I'm like I can't sleep for like three days.

That's the result of this stuff.

So yeah,

It's it's a having to install a loving filter on your brain It's something that that definitely got it happen.

I love that so now I want to transition into How you got involved like from how it went from a book to a business to the community that you built to like I think I'm gonna take this on a boat.

How did you get involved with the bereavement cruise?

It's all inspiration Sharon Ehlers,

Who is the a Mashups the owner a co-owner of grief Reiki I had a strong connection with her and she told me about it and I thought I just had this inspiration that I had just submitted a proposal for a workshop I'm going to in st.

Louis action in a couple of weeks and I thought I just have a good feeling about this and I sent in my proposal.

I got a call the next day.

I think I was on the tail end Of them accepting proposals and now I'm starting to connect with these 19 other amazing grief professionals like yourself and and it feels like my tribe.

I Just am so Grateful to be a part of it and be able to share these lessons I've learned there if they feel extraordinary to me and if it helps a person even in the smallest amount It's so worth it.

I really feel led to be a part of this cruise So what is going to be the workshop that you're teaching on board?

Is it related to the brain rewiring the brain or is it something totally different?

That's still in line with the work that you do totally related to the brain because and the brain actually is your fleshy part the mind is our Voice of the brain which is thoughts which is people don't understand how they work And so they become prisoners of it a belief is simply a thought that you have over and over again So my workshop is strengthening resilience after loss Resilience is the parts of you that remain strong After a loss which is the death of a loved one or any other big change in your life So you can get that resilience back.

You can learn it.

You can strengthen it by applying these skills that people can understand of how to control their own mind and Also,

We'll be talking about What's something that's so important to me is that you can have grief and joy at the same time.

And again,

That's related to How your mind works mindfulness and making?

Permission giving permission to yourself to have joy some somebody Taught me long ago You know when you're grieving you're not supposed to have any happiness.

It's not right.

It's disrespectful It dishonors the person who's gone and it's just simply not true.

I When my son died I had no happiness or joy for three years and that is a living hell when my stepson died last July my husband and I had a horrible few weeks and Then and we'll have some sort of grief forever But then we got back to living in honor of him and we wish things could have been different But we let ourselves laugh.

We we let ourselves have joy when something happy happens It's it's understanding again that that you have control to give yourself permission Now does it feel right to have joy?

Yes or no Are you making the decision from your own heart or what you think from somewhere outside of yourself?

You can have grief and joy at the same time.

So I'm gonna be talking about all of this Mindfulness is a simple concept.

It's being aware of what you're thinking of But if you don't understand how your mind works,

It's really hard to change it because okay.

I'm mindful.

I feel miserable Oh,

Well,

You know,

I'm gonna go have a drink or eat a candy bar Play a video game or go shopping you you can be in control of all of that and The end so I I love sharing this information I think people get huge aha's and they just have to be willing to try it and Practice it and their lives can change too it is life-changing to discover or to remember even to remember that you are a Mind.

Yes,

Who has the power to choose?

Absolutely.

Oh my gosh,

That's so cool.

I'm like,

I'm so excited.

I don't know if we're allowed to come to other people's workshops Oh,

That's so exciting.

Okay,

All right Because I think this is so fascinating and it's you refer to the secret and you refer to affirmations and for a lot of people that can come off as really flippant or Like just tape a motto on the wall and that'll that'll help or remedy,

You know,

What's going on but there is there's something to be said about taking the time to examine what is going through your mind and and actively working to shift that maybe not necessarily to change it or flip it overnight because like you said it's not a matter of Month,

It's not that long,

But it's also not an overnight thing either It is a practice coming back as a practice.

You must engage with over and over and over again and You can't just replace it with anything.

You're replacing those subconscious patterns You don't want with something that you do believe in with an affirmation that sings to your soul With with a TV show about something you're super interested in you have to replace it and that's the individual part that's that's something coaches help people with is Is what what's meaningful to you because you can't replace one negative thing with another negative thing That's from somebody else because they think it's great.

It has to be what's great for you.

Oh my gosh Grief coming back all of it.

It's just so personal.

Yeah.

Yeah,

You have to you have to steer the boat You have to be the one to steer the boat.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

You got it.

Wow.

This is so incredibly cool