Being Known & Finding Belonging With Denise Soler Cox

Denise Soler Cox lost her father and her brother before the age of 18. Convinced she was “the most unlucky person she knew,” she believed she was doomed to a life of isolation. A seminar in her twenties opened Denise's eyes to the realization that she could invent a new story. We’re talking about how vulnerability is a true measure of power, why sharing pain can help others know they are not alone, and how being willing to belong opens us up to a world of connection and camaraderie in grief.

Transcript

Grief Growers,

I'm really delighted today to introduce you to Denise,

Who is the producer-creator,

The voice and the vision behind the documentary being Enye,

Which is all about identity and belonging in the Latinx community.

And I'm really excited to have her voice on the show to talk about her own lost story,

But also the grief of lost identity after somebody we love dies,

And the joy,

Belonging,

Coming back that happens when we reclaim identity after someone we love dies.

So Denise,

Welcome to the show.

And if you could start us off with your lost story.

Well,

Thanks so much for having me.

I have to say I've never been on a show like yours,

And I'm super honored to have been asked to be here to talk about something that I very rarely talk about.

So I have two,

And actually they're both in my film being Enye,

But they're not,

Either one,

I'm not used to sharing about them often.

And so the first one is my dad who passed away when he was 47.

I was 13 and he was diagnosed and died within 90 days of stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma,

Which was incredibly fast and devastating for so many reasons in my family.

And then my brother,

Whom I was very close to,

Almost like a twin.

We were only about a year and a half apart.

And this is,

He was my first favorite person in the world,

I'll say.

And he was killed in a drunk driving accident when I was just barely 17 years old.

And he was 18 years old.

So having both of these so close together,

I think between the ages of like 13 and 17,

I'm like,

Ooh,

Critical time to be alive,

To be figuring out your place in the world,

To also be learning what emotions are.

Because as teenagers,

We're like,

Oh my God,

I'm feeling anger for the first time.

I'm feeling angst for the first time.

I'm feeling rage or numbness or like really excited giddiness or being in love for the first time.

Like all of these giant emotions were physiologically learning how to be emotional humans and then to have all of this massive grief happen.

Let's see,

What am I getting at?

How did this change you then?

How did losing both your dad and brother change you then?

And I wonder how it's gone on to inform you now.

Yeah.

So I would say,

You know,

It's interesting what you just said,

Like the normal teenage emotions.

I've got a 12 year old going on 13 in just a few months and I'm seeing her intense feelings and remembering what it was like to feel so intensely and to feel a little out of control with those feelings.

And you know what I mean?

It just kind of come in waves,

I remember.

And then yeah,

On top of that,

Having to lose my dad and my brother,

It was like more,

It was so intense that I could like,

I felt like I could barely get through it.

I realized as an adult that I kind of treated it,

It was so traumatic that my memory of that time,

Like my mom will ask me,

Hey,

Do you remember when we did this or when that happened?

And it's like,

I have no memory other than these two points that happened right at the beginning of my freshman year of high school and then right at the beginning of my senior year in high school and everything around those two points are just super blurry.

Now after my brother died,

I definitely had decided because you know,

There were those two deaths,

But I had also experienced other varieties of trauma,

We'll say earlier in my life,

Starting at a young age.

And so I would categorize my entire childhood as one of just extreme,

Extreme emotional challenge.

And I had made a decision that I would say when I was 17,

Like,

I am just the most unlucky person that I know.

And so I'm just going to have to accept this,

That I am just going to be the recipient of things,

Negative things,

People dying,

Things going wrong,

Terrible things happening to me personally,

Into my body.

Just I was kind of surrendering to a life that didn't seem like it was going to work out for me.

And the thing that was sad about that is that I was so young having to make that decision,

But in a way,

It was like my 17 year old version of accepting it,

You know,

And like the very best I could do.

And luckily,

I would say,

I think it was about four or five years later,

I found myself in my first seminar,

Like a transformational type of seminar.

And when I realized that,

You know,

It was the first time I heard that we make up stories about things that happened to us,

Right?

There's facts,

And then there's what we make up about the facts.

And I had never heard that before.

And to me,

A huge light bulb went off.

And I thought,

Wow,

Here are the facts.

My dad and my brother died.

And what I made up about it is that I'm unlucky,

And I can make up anything I want out of this.

So I'm going to make up something different.

And so from about 21,

22,

Well to now,

I've been making up something that makes me feel better about the whole thing,

But certainly not unlucky.

But when I meet teenagers,

This is the weirdest thing.

So a lot of my childhood was kind of a blur.

And especially those years,

Those teenage years,

High school years,

Very much of a blur.

But what's very bizarre is that I have this ability to connect with teenagers like nothing else.

Like I can literally hang out with them.

And I'm a speaker as well.

And so I get called to speak at Fortune 500 companies,

But I also get called to go to high schools.

And there are a lot of speakers that will not sit foot in high schools.

Like it's like the last place anyone wants to get on the stage.

And for some reason,

It's like my absolute comfort zone.

And I just,

I can remember that pain this quickly.

Like it doesn't take me a lot.

I have not forgotten it.

It's right there.

And so when I'm with them,

I can identify with the regular teenage angst and then anything called life happening,

I can completely get it.

And I feel like in many ways that's a silver lining because it keeps me,

I don't know,

In a weird way it keeps me young and relevant,

I guess.

And like I think it's cool when a teenager feels misunderstood and that all of a sudden someone sees them.

And I guess I have that ability to do that because of this.

Yeah.

And I literally just wrote down,

I always take notes when I'm on these calls with people.

I wrote down the gifts of grief.

And this is something that I hesitate to talk about because I never want to imply that grief in and of itself is a gift.

But I think there's often things that inadvertently come as a result of grief.

And in this case,

Like your heart for teenagers and remembering like this specific pocket of time,

These four years in here,

Not only the angst,

I hesitate to say like the surface level of angst,

But there's like the general angst that comes with being a teenager.

But then there's all these other life things that happen.

You said,

You know,

Anything under the umbrella of life getting in the way or life happening to you that adds onto it.

And so it's like there's geological layers of angst,

Grief,

Twistedness,

Confusion that you're like,

I have a heart for this because I remember living there.

It's like,

I no longer occupy that house,

But I remember living in that house.

And so I can come back there with you and we can sit in it together.

And that's just a really beautiful gift of grief.

I mean,

I would say I have the same thing for girls in their 20s who lose a parent because that was the reality of my experience.

So loss in college is very close to my heart.

You know,

Being away from home,

Striking out on your own for the first time,

Figuring out who you are in the world,

And then the whole thing comes crashing down on the precipice of launching into the world.

And then the whole thing crashes and burns.

And so I think that grief growers,

If you're listening and you're really new to your loss,

I'm like,

Don't know if you need to worry about the gifts yet.

But those who may be farther along in their journeys or farther away time wise from when the loss happened,

You might start to see like where your heart lives or who you have a heart for,

Especially in meeting other griefers in your journey.

When you were speaking about this revelation or this decision that you made as a 17 year old to I'm just going to decide that I am an unlucky person and I'm going to live an unlucky life,

It presumes that life happens to you.

And so there's very much this visual of I am a human and I'm being acted on by external forces.

Things happen to me and I have no control.

And then this thing that happened years later,

21,

22,

23,

When you went to the seminar of you get to decide the story of what that is,

That's within your power.

It's very much a shift from external things happening to you to I can respond to the losses that happen.

So can you speak more on like what that shift was like in your life?

Yeah.

So this is the thing is I would take back,

Like if I could,

I remember after both of them died,

I would have dreams with them.

And I'm sure this is a common thing,

But I would meet them somewhere and you'd be like,

Oh my God,

Daddy,

Like,

How are you here?

And like,

I would know,

I would know I was dreaming,

Right.

But I also knew that he was really there.

And it's because I could smell him.

And I just 100% believe that he was,

His energy and life force met me in my dreams.

And I literally spent the entire dream pleading with him to come back to life with me.

So that,

And I said,

I won't say anything.

I'll just pretend like you never died.

I just like,

You have to come back.

Like I cannot do this without you.

Right.

And he would laugh and just say,

I just can't like,

It's just,

That's not how it works.

I can't,

But I can give you hugs and I love you so much.

And literally this had this one on for the first two years after my dad died.

And then a few years after my brother died and I would meet my brother and my dad together.

And just,

It would always go the same way.

And I would,

Again,

Have that sense of their smell of their bodies,

Which is just such a bizarre thing,

But that's what kind of what confirmed it to me that I was really meeting them.

And so even though I,

You know,

That obviously didn't work out.

We had to scrap that plan.

But it was such a lovely,

It was such a lovely time and way to help me transition at like through my grief with both of them.

And like I said,

The dreams happened for a few years.

I would take them back in a second.

Like if someone could wave a magic wand,

I would take them back in a second.

Like,

You know,

If it,

You know,

And it would mean my I'm convinced my entire life would be completely different.

I would be completely different.

Right.

And I just want to say that first.

And since that's not the case,

I had to,

I just chose to make a decision that I would become well,

In the case of my brother,

I really admired who he was.

Like I said,

He was like my favorite person,

My first favorite person.

And what I missed most about him,

I realized could be the gifts,

Could be gifts that he gave me,

If that makes sense.

So he was a very charming,

Lovable,

Amazing,

Funny,

Great guy.

And so I decided that I would take all of those personality traits,

I would say and decide that he gave them to me.

And so he could still live within me if I worked on those parts about me that,

That I fell in love with,

With him,

If that makes sense.

And so I decided that even though he wasn't here,

He could still be here with me,

Something I made up,

Something that gave me power,

Something that made me feel very fortunate to have that he modeled for me.

And then my dad was,

I felt like,

You know,

I made up that my dad,

That I had enough,

Like that whatever I got was all that I needed,

And that he could go since he needed to go at that time.

But he gave me all the gifts that he,

That he was here to give me.

And so I could find that love with other people.

And that's also been really interesting and,

You know,

I'm on the verge of tears talking about it.

But I have extraordinary relationships with men.

And I often look for the same quality that reminds me of my dad.

And so my husband has,

Has really embodies my favorite qualities of my dad and my business partner,

Same thing.

And there's just some extraordinary male figures in my life that I've been able to kind of,

You know,

Have around me.

And I feel like that's a tremendous gift.

And then I'm very fortunate to have that male energy around me.

So you know,

It's weird to say,

You know,

I would take,

I would take a life back with them and their stuff out in the world that is also that also feels like a great blessing of almost equal value.

That just gave me chills.

That last sentence,

Because I think I think I ring true with that as well.

And so many people will as well,

Because we all agree,

Like,

Nobody ever comes to grief being like,

I'm so grateful that happened.

And the sentence.

It's I'm so I'm so grateful to be alive right now and be living the life that I'm living.

But I would take everything back in a heartbeat,

If they would be alive again,

If they could share this with me.

And I love this.

It's almost a conjuring,

There's something divine happening.

When you see the traits of your dad and your brother and other people,

It's like I've conjured you back into existence in some form and fashion.

And I wholly also acknowledge that it's a choice to see that in the aftermath of loss because sometimes going in,

It's like,

I don't want to see that.

I don't want to see anything that reminds me of them.

It's too painful.

It's too hard.

It's not really them kind of whatever experience or story that you want to come up with in your brain.

But I've noticed that as even more time continues to go by,

After the death of my mom,

I look for her even harder in other people.

It's like I continue to seek her but with more depth.

As she gets older,

There are people who have the same physical characteristics as her.

They have her same arms or same hands.

And I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

I want to see you all the time.

Show me your hands.

Which is too fun.

But then also people that cackle when they laugh,

Like their whole head goes back and they cackle.

I'm like,

That's my mother who just showed up.

That's so awesome.

And it's so wonderful.

And I loved in the initial email that you sent me,

You said it's so strange because you work with a lot of people who have the same name as your brother.

Oh my God.

So it's almost as if you are surrounded.

It is the weirdest thing.

I never,

When I hear the name David,

It just,

It always takes me back.

But I never had a lot of Davids in my life and started working on this film project,

Which was really what I believe I'm here to do.

And it took me a really long time to get here.

And I'm locked and loaded,

Made the movie,

Built a business around the film,

Making another film.

But it was a 17 year long journey to even make the first film.

And then we'd be hiring people or people,

Cameramen or sound guys or editors,

People that I want to interview.

I mean,

There's so many people involved in making films.

And like another David,

Like,

That's so crazy.

Like,

Hi David.

And then even my business partner,

We'd sit across the table and I'm like,

Another David.

Like it was weird.

It was like,

He was,

He was totally there.

And I felt like he wanted me to know,

Like he is there,

He's having fun.

And whenever I,

Whenever I feel him,

He's always laughing and having a great time.

And yeah,

It's just,

It's,

But that's how I kind of knew whenever I hear songs or anything.

I just,

I just decide to,

To know and feel and believe that he is here because I know that he wouldn't want to miss anything.

Just like if it were in the reverse,

I would be bugging him all the time.

I wouldn't bother the crap out of you.

The interesting story about my first daughter who's 12.

So my brother passed away around Thanksgiving and killed by a drunk driver.

And my daughter,

First daughter was a preemie and I went into labor the day I went into,

I actually had preeclampsia.

Do you know what that is?

It's a really dangerous thing to have.

And and they had to put,

Like,

Give me this medicine to make my body totally like paralyzed so that I wouldn't go into a seizure,

Which is like the number one cause of death for moms in you know,

When they have a baby or something like that.

So anyway they shut my,

My,

My doctor said,

I'm going to shut your body down right now and we're giving you all this medication.

Cause it was serious.

Like I got three hours of medication in 15 minutes and I,

I,

I couldn't move.

And he said,

You,

You're,

This is now all up to your body because your body will either know that the only solution here is to,

Is to release the baby at,

Or by tomorrow,

If it hasn't released the baby we'll have to induce you.

And he's like,

Just get ready to be in the state you're in for the next 24 hours.

And it was like 11 o'clock.

Right.

And I told them,

It's not going to go until tomorrow.

Today is my brother David's 20th anniversary of his death.

And this baby is coming today.

So please don't go home.

Please just like hang out.

Cause she is coming today.

Cause he is like,

He is here,

This is happening.

And I believe everything is going to be okay.

And a few hours later she was born and it is like,

It is impossible to,

To like wake up on that day and not have the birth of my daughter,

Like just be there along with the sadness.

Like he just made sure something else beautiful happened that day.

And it's,

It's,

I felt like,

You know,

When your mom for the first time,

The greatest gift is your children,

You know,

And that he would,

I don't,

I felt like he had something to do with making sure that she came early and that she came on that day so that I would not be sad anymore that he was gone.

Yeah.

And this speaks to something we talk about so often on coming back of how grief is like holding two experiences and you can't let either one of them fall.

The one is like blinding joy and the other one is searing pain and you carry both forward together with you into the future because you can never fully release the pain of grief or the memory that it happened.

But then you also have new experiences that,

That add depth and add joy and add lightness to it.

And so it's like you carry these two vessels,

But you can't drop either one of them.

I love this for you.

And I want to go into the making of being N.

Y.

A.

Of how it came to you,

Why it's necessary,

What it is,

Why people should watch it,

The vision of it.

Yeah.

So thanks for asking.

So I always felt from a very young age,

Which I feel like a lot of people feel this way,

This sense that,

Or this knowing that you're here for a reason.

And in my case,

It was,

I just had these,

Whatever,

It could be construed as delusions of grandeur,

Like a total egomaniac or just somebody who wants to make a big imprint on the world.

I'd like to think of it as the latter,

But I always felt like,

No,

I'm just here to do something big.

I just don't know what it is.

And I just always had this nagging feeling.

And you know,

So I went through all these,

You know,

Traumatic,

Difficult experiences as a kid,

Did the seminar,

Which was a real grounding moment in my life.

And then a moment of,

I would say,

Reinvention for me and,

You know,

Inventing myself as somebody that is,

Has all the blessings and we can get into that.

But anyway,

A few years after that,

I had an idea while drinking at a bar with my friends.

And I'd also,

Along with having all the trauma,

I was raised in a Latino household.

My family lived in the Bronx and my parents saved up all their money to buy us a house just outside New York City in the suburbs of New York City in a beautiful,

Beautiful,

Very Americana kind of place to grow up,

Which is called Westchester County.

And we were the only Latino family there.

And all of their Latino friends were left behind in the Bronx or in Spanish Harlem at the church that they met and got married in.

And I always felt very much like I didn't fit in,

Like I wasn't Puerto Rican enough for my family in Puerto Rico.

When we would go visit them,

I was the gringa,

Which is not fun to be called a gringa when you're not.

And then I was,

You know,

People would call me names and bullying me when they found out that I was Puerto Rican in New York.

And so I never felt like there was a place for me.

And I didn't know,

I always said,

I wish I had a rule book,

Like this is what it's going to be like.

Your parents are going to be from another country,

But you're going to be a foreign here.

And they're going to do certain things that are totally different than everybody else does outside your house.

And this is why,

And this is,

You know,

And so you can choose and all that stuff.

And so I didn't get that rule book and neither did 16 million of my other counterparts,

But I didn't know that my experience wasn't just my own until that night at a bar with my friends.

And so we're all having a good time and everyone starts joking around one by one about certain things that are very distinct about being a child of an immigrant.

And I realized for the first time in my life that I believed a lie that I was alone in my Latino identity.

And the reason,

And so it was so powerful for me to realize that because I thought already I had this traumatic kind of life,

Right,

Or childhood.

And on top of that,

I had these identity issues,

Struggles that went completely unaddressed.

So at the very least,

The deaths of my dad and my brother were addressed with lots of therapy,

Right,

Then in my teenage years and well into my 30s,

And decades of therapy,

Right,

Books and seminars,

All kinds of stuff.

But like the stuff around my identity and my ethnic identity and how that would fit in and how everything would kind of play together,

I had zero context of understanding it and certainly didn't feel like anybody else knew what that felt like.

But I realized that I actually was understood,

And I understood them,

They understood me to a depth that I could never,

That I'd never experienced before.

I'd never experienced a substantive level of understanding.

Certainly with the deaths of my dad and my brother,

Never met anybody in my 20s who had lost two close family members.

So I always felt on the periphery of a lot of these conversations,

Right,

And then on top of that,

With my identity as a Latina,

I'm not really understanding where I fit in also,

Just nobody understood,

No one really was talking about it.

And at that time,

When I grew up,

There was no YouTube,

No funny videos,

You know,

No BuzzFeed Latino,

No nothing.

And so right,

So nobody,

No one to see,

Except for books,

And I had read all the books,

The books were limited,

I read them all,

Right.

And so once I realized that that night,

I experienced a profound level of connection that I never felt before in my life.

And I realized that I needed to make sure that as many other people experienced that feeling,

That as possible,

I just felt this charge,

Like I felt like I got my assignment,

Like someone was like,

Okay,

Here you go,

This is what you're supposed to do with the rest of your life,

Right.

And I'm like,

A movie has to be a movie.

And I literally was writing down notes on bar napkins,

And stuck them in my purse,

Drove home and I felt like,

Man,

Like I finally know what I'm supposed to be doing.

I'm supposed to be making a movie about this conversation and about how people are really connected and about how we all believed a lie.

We're actually really all connected,

And I'm gonna like,

I think this could change the world like in my little world,

Like with all the kids that are born where their parents are from a Spanish speaking country,

But they're born here.

And this feeling of disconnection,

I can solve that problem with this piece of media that I want to make.

And by the time I got home,

I convinced myself that I absolutely sucked that I had no experience,

That I wasn't the right person that,

You know,

And I just had like,

Every couple of days,

A form of doubt that I possibly could have experienced in a 40 minute ride.

And then for the next 17 years,

I literally grappled with that voice of doubt pretty consistently.

And so whenever anyone would say like,

Hey,

You know,

Those conversations when people say if time or money wasn't an issue,

What would you do?

Right?

Like,

Yeah,

Questions like that.

They're so fun to answer.

And I always knew what I wanted to do.

But it was too chicken to really do it.

And I felt so not worthy of the project.

And it was almost like it was better,

Either done by somebody else or only existing in my words,

My one day someday descriptions versus actually having to deal with what it took to really work on it.

Right.

And so 17 years later,

I decided to do it.

And I still had no experience,

Even with YouTube,

Even with being able to Google stuff and read books.

I had not known it.

I didn't know a single person who even made movies,

The person that I ended up pitching the film to is now my producing and directoral partner,

Business partner also.

But that story isn't as relevant as this.

And so we got we made the film.

And while we were making it,

He said,

I want to include the deaths of your brother and your dad.

And I said,

No,

I don't want to do that.

Like I,

We really we went back and forth on this a lot.

And because he,

You know,

We were always trying to figure out what's the story.

Now he's an Oscar nominee.

He's won all the big film festivals.

He's a very established name in documentary filmmaking.

And I am a first time filmmaker.

So of course,

I'm going to defer to his,

You know,

Creative ideas,

Right.

But I kept pushing back and I'm like,

This doesn't make any sense.

And he's also a therapist.

That was his previous profession before he started making social justice films.

And he said,

This is everything to do.

I'm like,

This has nothing to do with my experience as an Enya.

Because that's what it's that the letter,

The extra letter in the Spanish alphabet is what the Enya is.

It's the one with the squiggle and the end with the squiggle,

The Enya.

And he decided,

I think we should make the story about your life.

I was like,

Absolutely not.

But then he,

You know,

He kind of convinced me that it was a good idea.

And then he was like,

And then I want to include this.

And I said,

Absolutely not.

And he shared with me many times,

Took me so long that the way I grappled with my identity,

With my cultural identity was very similar to how someone grapples with their identity when someone passes away,

Especially when they're young.

But even when you're older,

I mean,

I really,

It really is a thing.

And when my brother died,

I literally didn't know who I was.

I really only knew me in relation to him.

Like,

And I would say it was more cute with my brother than it was with my father.

Because I would sneak into my brother's bed and sleep with him at night.

You know what I mean?

Like we,

We could literally look at each other and knew what we were thinking.

We had our own like way of communicating.

We were twin souls,

Even though we weren't twins.

And when he was gone,

I literally didn't know who I was.

And I had to figure out who I was.

And it was,

I would say the first time I had to reinvent myself after my dad died.

It was a different type of death.

I can't even explain.

None,

Neither,

They were both very difficult,

But my brother dying jarred my identity in a much different and more,

Way more significant way than when my dad died.

So anyway,

So he did eventually convince me to include the deaths of my dad and my brother.

And it's interesting how after being on the road with the film and screening it,

You know,

I mean,

The lots and lots of people have seen the film.

I've been to over a hundred events where people have seen the film.

And it's fascinating how many people come up to me with their,

The stories,

Their grief stories and how important it was to them that I include that because it really does get all mish-mashed together because who am I and where do I fit in is a question you ask in cultural identity,

But it's also a question you ask when someone passes away and probably in other contexts as well.

But they're both very much related,

But here's the thing.

I didn't want to share those stories because I had associated people knowing my truth with weakness and I,

Part of who I reinvented myself to be was this person with a tough exterior.

So someone who couldn't be messed with,

Right?

That's definitely not how I am now.

I don't know.

I don't know if anyone can hear that I'm pretty much on the verge of tears this entire conversation.

I can see it.

I can vouch for that.

Grief growers.

Yeah.

So I would never allow myself on the freedom of being on the verge of tears like this.

And at any other time in my life because it just,

At some point it just becomes too painful and I just did it.

I just,

I did it without realizing that I was doing it.

Right.

But then when he suggested we should put it in the movie,

I said,

No,

Because when I was a kid,

Everyone that I grew up with,

We all grew up in elementary school,

Middle school,

High school together,

Many of the,

I knew a lot of the parents and after my brother died that senior year,

I mean the look on a lot of the parents' faces and the kids' faces,

It's like they would do this head tilt.

And like it looked at me with pity and I hated it.

And I never,

Once I graduated,

I went to school and I never went back.

But I will tell you every time I go back,

If I see someone that I went to school with,

That look,

It's like right there.

Right.

And in a way as an adult,

I can identify with that now.

Like I can see it.

It's unimaginable the losses I had to bear as a kid.

Right.

But then having to deal with their pity was too much and I did not want anyone as an adult looking at me like that.

So here's the thing.

What I realized was that these two deaths that I kept like more or less a secret or at least kept trying to control the narrative.

Right.

And I am okay with you knowing.

Not you.

Right.

Like that's kind of how I was.

And not before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so nobody would know.

And so I wouldn't have to deal at all with these conversations.

And I remember my partner and I got into an argument right before,

Literally the night before we were to screen the film for the very first time in New York City and the night we flew to New York,

I live in Denver,

And we were going to screen it the next night.

And I realized I had made a terrible mistake by making the film about my life,

By including the deaths.

By like,

I just realized,

Oh my God,

I literally walked into exactly what I didn't want.

Now I'm going to be known and I'm going to feel powerless.

And I remember telling him that and he said,

Your power is not derived from your secrets,

Denise.

Your power is derived from telling the truth and from being authentic and being yourself.

And I vehemently disagreed with him and said,

No,

I have felt very powerful with knowing knowing about my life.

Like I enjoy in life not being known because I don't have to deal with anyone pitying me or judging me or making up stuff that doesn't,

You know,

That's not true,

Right?

When they have too much information.

But it was already made and the thing was going to be done.

And I'm like,

I'll noodle on it.

But I literally,

I like,

I'm having such a hard time with this,

You know,

The idea that my most of my life story would be in a movie like forever for anyone to see.

And what I realized was the next night,

And then 108 other times that I've been in the room is that it is the most incredibly,

I mean,

Powerful doesn't even,

Powerful isn't even the best word for it is the most beautiful thing to be known.

It is and I wrote down,

I love what your partner said,

Because it's so full of wisdom and insight,

But I wrote down being known,

And then it just drew an arrow,

Power,

Exclamation point.

And I think you're speaking to a fear that's so very real and grief is if people know how much I suffered,

If people know how much I cry,

If people know how much I just don't care,

If people knew how much I changed,

If people knew how deeply this affected me,

Or effed me up,

For lack of better phrasing,

Yeah,

Then this would destroy me.

And it seems like another destruction on top of the loss we've already faced.

And so it's not just to die,

But to die again in being known.

And so this is a very,

Very,

Very real fear.

And what you were speaking of before,

You're like,

No,

I've had great power and nobody knowing my secrets.

And the word that flashed in my brain was shield,

Because there's a difference between a shield and being powerful.

And I think that's such an important distinction to make.

And I don't know that anybody else has quite phrased it that way.

Huron coming back,

But in this film,

It's like not only am I unlocking the secrets of what it is to be first generation Latina in the United States,

To have parents who come from Spanish speaking countries,

And then to try to not assimilate,

But to adapt in a culture or a nation that's different from the one your parents were in and to have to choose or to feel that strain in that poll,

Like all the secrets of that,

In addition to unveiling the secrets of your grief,

It's like there is massive power and having both of these stories married together in one film.

Yeah.

Yes.

And you know,

It's,

It just was a shock to me.

It really was.

Cause I will tell you with 100% certainty,

I derived power from withholding my pain from any,

From anyone,

Everyone,

I felt like that was the power position,

But really the power position is this and like open heart because what,

What is pretty,

What the only thing that's left after,

You know,

Someone watches it is love.

And it's the film really cracks people open and it gets them in touch with their own pain and their own suffering.

And then it's not about feeling sorry for me.

It's about standing together and this shared,

The shared pain and not for,

You know,

Swirling down the drain together,

But just recognizing we're all,

We're human and we've,

You know,

You'd be so surprised and your listeners won't,

Right.

But one of my favorite,

One of my most favorite things that anyone's ever said to me was I was in a leadership program in my twenties in Miami.

And the leader said it was like a six month long program.

And the leader said,

You know,

Look to your left and to your right.

He's like,

If you all make it through the program,

You will know each other so well that it'll bring like,

You'll know each other so well,

Including what you've suffered through,

Right.

And when you look at each other,

It would bring you to your knees to know what you had to deal with in your life.

Right.

And it was such an eye opening experience because it's not like I would say most people know the depths of suffering to the extent that I do most people,

But when I experienced it,

I felt like no one understands the depth of my suffering.

I think that's the illusion of it is it feels so lonely.

But what my experience,

Well,

Back in my twenties,

You know,

In that six month program was the first glimpse of it.

And then the last six years of my life interviewing people for this film and being on the road with this film for years now,

Meeting people and people,

You know,

Being in that cracked open state and sharing their pain with me.

I just,

You know,

I'm convinced more people than we can imagine can provide comfort if we all only were available to like share our movie,

If that makes sense.

Yeah,

Sure.

The whole story of our lives I think is might be what you're getting at.

And the thing I wrote down is the thing that gives you power is releasing the fear that someone's going to find out the secret.

And so it's like when you no longer have that fear,

That's what makes you powerful.

I have to say that for my own experience,

When I find out the extent of someone's life,

Not just what they've lived through,

But how they're managing to keep on living,

I only grow in admiration for them.

It never shrinks.

And I think that's true for a lot of people,

Especially grieving people when they hear other stories of grief.

Now that I know that you also have a grief story,

There's a kind of trust that's built in mutual or similar suffering.

And it's not the trust that's built of like our westernized society telling the triumph story of I went through this and then I overcame it.

I went through this and I'm still alive.

Like I'm surviving and I have added,

There's like a depth that's added.

And so there's a trust that's added.

And it's so rare that I ever talk about this because I think I could count on one hand the amount of people I know who have lost both a dad and a brother at a young age.

And I can remember the last one and we were in a mastermind together last year.

And as soon as she said,

She saw my film and then we had this event in California and she said,

I lost my dad and my brother too.

And she just quickly said how.

And it was like,

We just gave each other a hug and it was like instantaneous depth of understanding.

There's just no,

You know,

It's like,

You can't even put it into words,

The depth to which we understand each other.

It just stacks on.

It's like there's a ramp up period to get to know somebody,

Right?

A normal ramp up period.

And once you know,

Or for me,

Once I know someone has literally experienced the death,

Those two types of deaths at that.

I mean,

That's just like,

Like the bullseye of understanding.

Right.

But then anyone that also has lost a parent or a sibling,

There's that immediate relatedness.

And yeah,

It's not because we both triumphed over anything.

It's because,

And it is like,

Wow,

Like,

Like I see,

I see you and I see how far you've come.

I can see it,

You know,

I,

And it's just a,

It's a beautiful,

It's a weird thing to find beauty in,

But it is a beautiful thing.

Compassion,

Right?

Compassion.

Yeah.

And I want to speak to the girl at the bar who was writing down her dream on cocktail napkins right now,

Because it was as if the universe,

The world,

God,

Whatever phrase you want to use,

Was handing you this assignment of like,

Here's what you do with your life.

And the goal of which was to bring this feeling of,

I get you across the world.

And I have to say,

Without diminishing what being Nye is to the world,

It would not be what it is without your grief story in it.

A hundred percent agree.

Yeah.

So the level of understanding,

Not only of what it is to be Latina in this culture in the United States,

Amongst a ton of white people,

Especially in the world that we're living in right now.

But in addition to that,

And also having a grief story,

People in the audience are like,

I know what that means.

I speak that language.

I know what that is.

I have lived that experience.

In addition to,

I am first generation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so it's almost like,

I'm not going to hit them once.

I'm going to hit them twice with this level of deep and rich understanding.

I'm so glad that you didn't tear down the curtains the night before and just say,

Don't show it.

I am so glad.

I am so glad that it made it to the world because I think it's needed and it continues to be needed in the world.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And it's funny how life works.

Cause my partner always says,

You're the perfect person for this because all this stuff happened.

Because I used to think I was not the perfect person because all this stuff happened.

But it was like,

No,

You are because of all this stuff.

And it's like,

How could there be something perfect?

It just doesn't,

It doesn't seem to add up.

You know,

That should be a disqualifier,

But it's a qualifier.

It's proof of your,

It's like your resume almost.

It's proof of the fires that you've already walked through.

Right.

Right.

So yeah,

It's,

It's really interesting how identity and how identity is really inextricably tied to both things,

You know?

And the idea of reinvention to me is fascinating.

Like who am I going to be now?

And answering that question and understanding that every moment I can reinvent,

I don't have to be any way that I decided was going to be the way I was going to be right.

Like I can be a new way and being able to pull from these two men in my life and my favorite qualities of them.

And then anything else I want,

Right?

Like I,

Cause I,

You know,

This is an interesting thing to talk about,

But I,

At a very young age,

Decided to use these qualities of my brother to keep him alive in me and also to get through the darkest part of my pain of losing him.

And then using that as a tool that I would use forever after that,

To find success in my life and success in this project and say,

No,

I am whoever I say I am.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I wonder,

Before we get to the very end,

If you could bestow a vision of belonging on everybody who's listening right now,

What would that be?

I would say belonging is two,

Belonging has two parts.

So the first part is a willingness to belong.

And so the person,

So like in the context of what we're talking about,

It's like,

For me,

I would bring,

You don't know me,

You don't know my pain,

You don't know what I've been through,

And I'm definitely not going to tell you,

But I'm going to show up here and I'm not going to feel like I'm a part of stuff,

Right?

Like living on the periphery of like in physical spaces,

You know,

Or in any space,

Just like never feeling like I can get in the middle of things.

So that comes with certain behaviors in the real world,

Right?

Like not participating fully,

Not engaging,

Not getting to know people fully,

Because if you're going to live on the periphery insisting you're not,

Insisting on holding on to the secrets or the just unwillingness to be known,

Then that's the life experience you get,

Right?

So it's almost self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I know there's a part of grief that just,

You just have to walk through the fire of that.

I actually get that that's necessary,

Right?

But it's okay to move through that and it's okay to start moving to the middle of the room.

And so how am I willing to be known?

And I feel like it took me until my early forties to be willing to belong fully.

And for me,

Willingness to belong means not like I don't have any secrets,

Right?

But I am willing to show you this piece of art that I made that literally just shows you my heart,

Shows you my pain,

Shows the truth about my reconciling my identity for you to take or leave,

Right?

And enjoy or not.

But it is,

It doesn't take away anything from my experience.

And so that I would say is belonging,

Is leaning in so far in,

Willing to get hurt,

Willing to not love when people walk out of the room at my screenings when they don't get it,

Right?

And also willing to take in all the love when it's being thrust at me,

Right?

Being willing to stay open to receive all the love and appreciation.

And there are no places I feel like I belong more than rooms where people are like crying in my arms,

Right?

Saying thank you for putting into words what I've never been able to express before.

That is like the ultimate belonging.

But the trade off is my truth.

The trade off is I'm going to show you my heart,

Right?

And I don't know how I'm going to be in this moment because I've never been in this moment before.

So like that whole sharp doll knife thing,

Like I don't know and I can't show up perfect because I don't know that there's any perfect way to be except for just to be here,

Right?

So that's belonging.

And then the other side is being willing to provide spaces that people will feel safe to belong.

And so that's all of our responsibility.

And I was thinking about this yesterday,

About the fact that I'm an over introducer.

I call myself that.

So if I often will over introduce like,

Hey,

Do you remember this part?

You know,

Like,

Oh,

We all met here,

Do you remember her?

You know,

Do you know her?

She does this,

You know,

I'm always trying to like,

Make sure that everybody feels extra comfortable because I know what it feels like to be on the periphery,

Right?

Gift.

Like anyone around me always feels welcome.

And I just know how to do it because I know what it feels like.

I know what I needed.

But I also couldn't express it,

Right?

And so being willing to provide a space where people belong is asking the question,

What,

How do you make people feel like they belong?

How do you know when you belong?

What are the things that can need to be said?

Or what are the physical ways that you can be an act that provide that belonging?

And for me,

I'm a I'm,

You know,

They say Puerto Ricans touch people more than like any other nationality.

Very touchy feely people.

It's like if we were together,

I probably would have touched your arm and not let it go like,

What am I not grabbing you?

You know,

Like,

We just love that feeling.

And my girls are like that they're very snugly.

And I just I love that quality.

But I,

You know,

I inherited that from my parents.

And they know that's how people feel they belong in my energy is because I'm I give a lot of like,

Reassurance,

Like through touch,

Right.

And so that's like a way that people know they belong in my house,

I'm going to give them hugs,

Touch them on the shoulder,

I don't know stuff like that.

I also over introduce,

I also never say you're welcome to join us.

And I instead say,

I'd love to invite you to join us.

Like,

It would be so important if you came,

Like,

They would love this story,

You know,

Like,

How can we be so that other people feel like they belong?

And there's things we can say ways that we can be.

And that includes how we,

Like,

Show up like with our bodies and our physical,

Like,

Our physical world,

You know,

How are you thinking about people?

Are you thinking about what's important to them?

And then somewhere in the middle,

If it was a Venn diagram,

There's the magic where people feel like they belong.

And those that are creating spaces for people to belong feel like they provided that.

And both require leaning in and trusting.

But it's all it's a sacred space,

Right?

And it says it's a very sweet place of where both parties have to be vulnerable and stay vulnerable.

That was perfect.

I literally just did a little Venn diagram in my notebook.

And on one side,

It says you must be willing to be known.

And on the other side,

It says you must be willing to create spaces where people are known.

And they kiss each other in the middle.

And that's the magical space of belonging.

And I think it's so true in grief.

I think it's so true in non-white cultures,

Especially right now,

Living in the United States,

Is that not only do we need to be willing to be known with all of our secrets,

Mistakes,

Flaws,

And misunderstandings,

But we need to also be creating spaces where others feel safe being known by us.

Yeah.

And receive those touches,

That love,

Those hugs,

That affirmation,

That knowing,

That belonging,

Especially for those of us in Grief Growers and Talking to You Listening,

We have received our own lack of belonging.

And so we know what belonging feels like.

And so to take,

Because we have known,

We know what not to do,

Into the world and create spaces where people belong.

It's one of those weird gifts of grief,

If we can have gifts of grief right now.

That's marvelous.

Denise,

I would love if you'd let people know where they can find being Enya,

As well as any other piece of your work that you'd like to share with us here on Coming Back.

Yeah,

Thanks for asking.

So if you'd like to see my film,

It's on my website,

And the website is projectenye.

Com.

So projectenye.

Com.

And you'll see the two-minute trailer,

And then you can just put your email in if you want to watch it.

And also,

If you are on Instagram,

I'm there,

That's my most favorite place to live.

And anyone that's,

Any Latino who's listening will get a lot out of it.

And if you're not Latino,

You will also get a lot out of it.

They say Instagram is there to educate,

Inspire,

And something else.

But I'm 100% in the inspirational category.

So if you're looking for a pick-me-up,

To look at someone that has looked just terrible trauma in the eye,

And created a life that includes it,

That doesn't dismiss it or pretend like it doesn't exist,

Then please come visit me there.

And at least you'll be reminded that you're not alone.

Yeah,

I get this visual for you of reaching my arms around all the trauma and hugging it in,

As opposed to trying to push it out to,

You spoke about the periphery or to the boundaries or to the edges.

It's like,

No,

This is all coming with me into the future.

And I think that's such a beautiful thing.

Thank you so much for joining us on coming back.

This was really lovely.

Yeah,

Thanks for having me.

This was really great.

Thank you.