Adventures Of Sariputta & Mogallana 4: Dharma Jazz

Sensei Morris Doshin Sullivan tells the story of Mogallana's visit to the Devas before talking with renowned jazz composer and pianist Edward Simon about how his Buddhist practice has helped shape his work as an artist. "Equanimity," from Simon's album "Sorrows & Triumphs," is the theme music for this podcast series. Simon is a practicing Buddhist, mainly in the Theravada tradition. His music has been greatly influenced by his practice of the Brahma-Vihara meditations.

Transcript

You are listening to the adventures of Mogulana and Saraputa.

I'm your host,

Morris Sullivan.

I'm going to do something special today.

I'll talk with renowned jazz composer and musician Edward Simon.

But first,

I want to tell you about Mogulana's conversations with the Devas.

Venerable Maha Mogulana had a very refined consciousness.

People said that he could see things the average person couldn't.

While meditating,

He could transport himself mentally to different places.

He was even able to reappear in heavens and hells.

So there are a number of stories about him seeing hungry ghosts,

Divine beings,

And things like that.

Well,

While meditating one day,

Mogulana visited one of the heavens where the Devas lived.

Devas are like angels.

And it's a D-V-A.

The V is pronounced kind of like a V and it's kind of like a W.

Anyway,

He saw that they had lived in palatial homes,

And he decided to ask one of them what he had done as a human being to be reborn in such refinement and bliss.

He said that he had been reborn in heaven just because he had always spoken the truth.

Well,

He asked another,

And she had been reborn there because even though she had been abused and mistreated,

She held no hatred toward those who had harmed her,

And she had not lost her temper with them.

Another had been reborn,

A Deva,

Simply for regularly doing small acts of charity,

Offering fruits or vegetables to monks,

Making little gifts to those in need.

He asked around,

And several others all had similar answers.

Mogulana was very surprised by this.

He had assumed that to go to heaven would require much more impressive good deeds.

So when he returned from his visit to the Deva heaven,

He asked the Buddha about it.

He wondered,

Was it truly possible to be reborn a heavenly being just for small things like honesty,

For not nurturing hatred,

And for small kindnesses?

And the Buddha said,

My son,

You've seen for yourself and heard what the Devas have said.

Why doubt it?

Little acts of goodness surely lead to heaven.

One should speak the truth.

One should not give in to anger.

One should give when asked,

Even if only a little.

By these three means,

One can reside in the presence of the gods.

Well,

There's a term used in Buddhism,

The Brahma-vaharis.

People sometimes refer to them as the boundless states.

But the literal translation is divine abodes.

The idea is that these mental states,

Goodwill,

Compassion,

Appreciation,

And equanimity,

Are where the heavenly beings abide.

To develop them is to dwell in the presence of the gods.

I mentioned in the trailer for this podcast series that from time to time I'd interview a Dharma superhero,

Someone who lives an exceptional life by embodying the Dharma.

Like the Deva who made it to heaven by having goodwill even for those who harmed her,

Our first such guest developed his own Dharma superpowers by cultivating the Brahma-vaharis by building the divine abodes in his heart.

My guest is a native of Venezuela who has become renowned all over the world as a jazz improviser,

Composer,

Arranger,

And bandleader.

Among other things,

Edward Simon has explored the intersection of jazz and Latin American music.

He lives in the San Francisco Bay Area where he's a member of the All-Star SFJazz Collective.

He's been a Guggenheim Fellow,

Been awarded grants for composition as part of the Chamber Music America's New Jazz Works Initiative,

And has recorded 16 albums.

His work,

Equanimity,

Which he graciously allows us to use for the podcast's opening and closing,

Comes from his album Sorrows and Triumphs.

Much of the music on that album was directly inspired by his Buddhist practice.

His latest release,

Entitled 25 Years,

Is a curated compilation of music from his career so far of his 25 years of amazing recordings.

I had the good fortune to get to know him about 15 years ago or so when he was living in Florida and attending Buddhist services here in DeLand and at the Thai monastery where I've spent a lot of time.

So I asked him how he had come to Buddhism and how his practice had shaped his life as an artist.

You feel like your practice has helped you navigate this pandemic?

For sure.

I've been finding that I need to take care of myself more during this time than perhaps ever before.

I have experienced a lot of ups and downs,

I've gone through periods when I feel not so motivated,

And the practice has really helped me kind of stay on track and find some relief.

It has shifted more into metta practice.

I'm doing more metta these days.

My practice right now basically consists of a body scan that I do in the beginning of my formal sitting practice,

And I do a metta meditation.

So that was partly inspired by the series of talks that Spirit Rock has offered this month.

They call it metta month because that was the time when the Buddha was born and when he was enlightened.

So they make that month a month where they really like to focus on that practice.

They had weekly talks by really four great teachers,

Joseph Goldstein and Jack Kornfield,

Sylvia Bernstein and Sharon Gold.

What's Sharon's last name?

Salzburg.

Salzburg.

Thank you.

And they were really inspirational talks,

And they reminded me that at this time,

This is a very appropriate time to deepen one's metta practice,

To spread love towards oneself and to others,

To all second-guys.

You didn't grow up Buddhist,

Did you?

No.

Lucky that even though I come from Venezuela,

Which is mostly a Catholic country,

My father had a lot of foresight and a very ahead of his time kind of guy.

He made sure that all his children were not influenced by any religion and left it up to us to decide what we wanted to practice when we were old enough to discern and make those kinds of decisions.

So how did you find Buddhism?

What appealed to you about it?

Well,

To make the connection between my father,

Because actually he's probably in a roundabout way responsible for me encountering meditation,

My father introduced me to meditation at first and the writings of many Eastern masters,

Including Krishnamurti,

Who was one of the writers that has inspired me tremendously over the years.

I used to read a lot when I was in my late teens,

Early twenties.

And Paramahansa Yogananda's book,

Autobiography of a Yogi,

Was the first one that really kind of got me seriously interested in meditation.

And that was,

I don't know,

I probably was in my late twenties or mid twenties.

I don't remember exactly when I read that book.

It kind of got me started on the path of meditation,

Although I didn't really continue to practice sitting meditation at that time,

But instead moved more into yoga and the physical aspect of being present and aware of the body.

And eventually I came full circle back to meditation.

And that's when I discovered Buddhism.

Many years later,

I was on tour in England with some British musicians or Irish and British musicians.

And two of them in the band were practicing Buddhists and they were listening to cassette tapes that had cassette tapes of this particular teacher by the name of Alan James,

Dharma Talks by Alan James they were listening to.

And so I became very touched by the style of teaching.

He has a very direct style of teaching this teacher,

Alan James.

He's by the way,

A British teacher who studied in Thailand in the Theravada tradition and came back to England to form a center in the outskirts of London in a town called Bradford and Avon.

And so because we were in England touring,

We had a day off and one of the drummer in the band told me,

Listen,

Would you like to come in for a day to visit the center?

And I said,

Sure.

So I joined him and we went for just a service and a meditation.

And we brought some gifts for the monks,

Some flowers.

And the experience was really,

You know,

It really spiked my curiosity.

There was something different about these people.

When I went to the center,

I could tell there was something different about them.

They almost seemed like they were not from this planet in some way.

And I was very intrigued by that.

And so later on,

I applied for,

I attended meditation retreats at this place.

And the retreats there were really quite wonderful because it's a very small center.

So they only have,

At that time,

They might have had three monks who lived there.

Alan James,

The head teacher,

And a couple of other laymen students who lived there.

But they only took maybe 10 or 12 people maximum at a time for retreats.

So it was always a very small group.

And the first time I went,

If I remember correctly,

I did two six-day silent retreats back to back,

One that was called an integrated retreat where you spent half of the day just practicing seated and walking meditation and the other half of the day doing some some yogi work,

But still practicing in silence.

And then the second week was a more intensive retreat where it was all eight hours of meditation practice every day with some time with your teachers.

So that was really the first retreats that I did.

And the books that I read by Alan James were very,

I liked a lot and were very influential.

So that's how I got started.

Or you still mainly practiced here of Audibuddhism?

Yes.

Yeah.

When did you decide you wanted to create a body of work inspired by Buddhism?

This was around the time when I was,

Source and Trams,

I composed,

I think it was in 2008,

Which is now like 10,

12 years ago.

And I,

It was a project that I proposed to Chamber Music America for their new jazz works initiative,

Which is one that funds the creation of new works,

Jazz works by composers,

Band leaders.

And really the main doctrine that inspired those works are the Brahma Viharas.

I was really inspired by the fact that there are this divide abodes,

This qualities of mind that we should cultivate that are not necessarily,

Don't necessarily come natural to us,

But we really need to actively cultivate in ourselves.

And also I think the question,

Asking myself the question of why do I play music is another one that inspired those works.

Every once in a while,

I think is good for artists to ask themselves that question,

Why do I create?

And of course that the answer to that question can change from time to time in our lives.

And I think it was a student of mine that asked me that question recently.

Initially my response might've been,

And still is to some degree,

Of course,

For pure enjoyment.

I enjoy playing music,

But if I started to look more deeply into the why,

The question,

The word,

Excuse me,

That comes to mind is connection.

And because to me,

When I meet a listener who comes to me after a concert,

For example,

And tells me how the music make them feel and have it expressed in their own words,

It's when things come full circle to me and it's the most satisfying moment.

I mean,

As a creator,

As an artist,

Why would we want to create?

I mean,

Yes,

We need to enjoy it ourselves,

But ultimately you want to offer it to the world to enjoy,

Right?

I mean,

There might be some of your creations that some artists might wish to not share and keep for themselves.

That's okay.

But I think for the most part,

We want to share it.

We want others to hear it and others to enjoy it.

And so basically what that means is we want to connect with others.

And when you think about the meta practice,

That's all about connection too.

Acknowledging the fact that everyone wants to be happy,

Has this desire to be happy.

It's a way of acknowledging the fact that we're all interconnected in this world in a very basic way,

Right?

So this desire,

We don't really want to suffer.

So there's that correlation there.

And so that question of why I play music is also one that inspired those works.

I got to say,

I love the CD and it's kind of,

I can sort of tell where you're coming from with pretty much everything on here.

Desires is one of my favorites just because it's like,

Yeah,

I know that feeling.

I know exactly.

And the uninvited thoughts also.

It's so interesting,

So creative the way you approach that one.

It has that real feel of all that stuff coming in.

And yet it's beautifully composed.

What do you feel like is the relationship at the heart level between composing and playing and spirituality?

When I'm in the flow and there's less of me actually involved,

I feel more selfless,

Certainly ego-less when the music is actually flowing through me.

And I think that as improvisers,

That's what we practice to do,

Is to become more of a vehicle for the music to come through us.

Of course,

That practice,

For that to happen,

It requires a lot of discipline.

With great freedom,

With freedom comes great discipline.

There's a saying that I've heard someone say.

So we need as artists,

We need boundaries to be able to work from,

To serve as a framework that then we can create something new.

Yeah,

It's a framework like a canvas.

To me,

There's a lot of correlations between,

And maybe this doesn't really directly answer your question,

But there's a lot of correlations or parallels between Buddhist practice and jazz improvisation.

For one,

Both require the development of concentration.

Another similarity is that both practices are transmitted orally.

We improvisers initially began the learning process of the language of jazz by imitating others.

We do a lot of transcribing and eventually we assimilate the language and then we innovate.

It's a three step process.

I oftentimes like to quote the great Clark Terry who put it in those terms.

He says,

We imitate,

We assimilate and we innovate.

And as you know,

Originally the Buddhist teachings were passed down orally as well.

And the disciples of the Buddha would memorize his talks.

And so we do the same thing.

We memorize the solos of other great jazz improvisers.

They become like a part of us and it becomes a language and eventually we assimilate it and we start to use the language to tell our own story.

So there's those parallels.

And then there's also,

To me,

The idea that a relaxed mind is a creative mind,

Which I have found to be very true.

I can't really create if my mind is,

If there's interference to be in that state of flow and to be in a state of open receptive,

Open receptiveness.

My mind has to be at ease,

Has to be relaxed.

And my practice,

The practice of meditation helps to keep my mind relaxed.

I equate in some ways concentration with relaxation.

When the mind is concentrated,

It becomes settled.

And it is from that stillness that music or thoughts or writing or just any creative impulse can emerge.

Do you have students that you encourage to explore their spiritual practice as part of their music practice?

Yes,

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it seems to be something that more and more students are interested in,

The idea of how to deal with their mind as they're playing,

With their thoughts and how to be kind and to be more kind to themselves too,

Because we artists tend to be super critical of ourselves for whatever reason.

I don't know if it's something that happens only to artists,

But certainly I see it a lot in artists that we are incredibly critical of ourselves.

It works against us.

It's almost like self sabotage.

And so I find that students,

Particularly in the early formative years,

They have a great need for learning how to deal with that,

How to be kinder to themselves and how to know,

Be content with the fact that we can only work from wherever we are now.

You have to be content.

We're here now.

Okay.

I can't quite play the way I envision myself playing,

You know,

Create these ideas that it's good to have a target goal to work towards.

Yes.

But there's no reason to cost ourselves all this extra suffering in the process.

It would be so much better to learn to be content with where we are now and to enjoy the process to improving towards our goal.

Or also many of us need something to keep our personal lives in order.

It's very common for artists to,

You know,

Have a lot of substance abuse problems or,

You know,

There's a number of personal issues that we can have as artists because we don't really fit the norm a lot of times.

And having a practice can be what keeps those people on the right track and being able to continue to do their practice,

But,

You know,

Live a healthy life.

So what's a home run for you?

When you look back on the workday,

You said,

All right,

That was the one.

You know,

What has happened that causes that response to you?

Other than what I was telling you before,

When I talk to someone,

An audience member that expresses that the music was touched,

Touched them in a way,

And they describe the music,

They might describe a composition of mine,

You know,

In a way that's different from how I would have described it.

But still,

It's beautiful,

You know.

I can tell they are seeing something in it that perhaps I couldn't see,

You know.

That's really wonderful.

It's very satisfying to have those moments.

What's next for you?

Is there a next big thing for you?

When the lockdown or shelter-in-place mandate began here on March 12th,

I was about to leave to go on tour with the SFJAZZ Collective.

You know,

It soon became clear that that was not going to be possible.

And of course,

The tour was canceled.

And it,

You know,

It very quickly became evident that I was not going to be able to perform live in front of an audience anytime soon.

And already within,

You know,

Two weeks of living in confinement,

You know,

I saw how much anxiety this was bringing up for myself included.

But you know,

People who,

I myself,

Because of my practice,

I'm used to living in solitude or in isolation because I go on retreats somewhat regularly.

But for those who don't do that,

Living in isolation can be a traumatic source of suffering,

Really.

And I was speaking to some friends who were experiencing a lot of anxiety.

And so it really,

I was inspired to just,

I wanted to continue to bring the music into people's houses,

Ears.

And streaming seemed like the best option.

And in fact,

There's an option that has a tool that has been available there for quite a long time,

And I'd never made use of it.

And so it took me about,

You know,

Three weeks really to figure out how,

Figure out all the technology,

What I needed to get set up.

I needed to obtain some gear,

Some equipment,

Some higher quality microphones,

Which I never had,

Even though I have a little home studio here at home,

But I've never done anything,

You know,

That required high quality microphones and other pieces of gear that are needed in order to produce a somewhat quality experience for the listener on the other end.

And it took a few tests and a lot of this,

You know,

Research online and to figure out how to get it done convincingly.

And it's still a work in progress.

I'm still trying to improve it even more.

So that's one aspect of it.

It was just trying to bring some joy into people's hearts.

But also for me,

Artistically,

It also gives me a focus.

It keeps me on the piano.

You know,

If I have a concert on my calendar,

A project that has a deadline,

You know,

That's usually my best inspiration.

And so it serves multiple purposes.

But also solo piano is something that I haven't done much of and have been wanting to do.

In fact,

I've been entertaining the idea of releasing a recording and releasing a solo piano record.

The first I've never made one.

And it takes time to develop a voice as a solo pianist.

If it's not something you've been doing all along.

And I really have been doing more of it.

I've been doing more of it in recent times.

But you know,

It can take really years to really develop a unique voice in that format.

So I'm glad that it actually feels like right now it's a good time to be a pianist.

Because piano is one of those instruments that are very capable of producing solo performance.

And so I'm getting a lot of invitations and requests for prerecorded concerts that are happening online.

And this live streaming as well.

Some of them are for raising funds for other musicians.

Some of the ones I've done.

Well,

First of all,

You should know that all of my streaming series concerts are free of charge or free for anyone to see that people can give donations if they wish.

But it's not necessary.

It's not required.

And many of the other concerts,

Streaming concerts that I've done,

Have been fundraisers for musicians who are right now being very negatively impacted by the coronavirus.

Because we can't perform.

And we,

Obviously a lot of us,

And myself included,

Generate most of our income through life of us.

Do you think that this will change what you do over the long term?

Yes,

I do.

I think that in a way,

You know,

This situation has forced myself and many other musicians like me to figure out how to make this technology work for us.

Because it can be another revenue stream for us to figure out how to take our music business online more so than ever before.

And I'm still exploring what that can look like for me.

In fact,

I'm taking a course from someone,

An online course.

It's called the Online Musician from this woman,

Leah McHenry,

Who's been doing,

She built her entire career online.

She's never toured at all.

She never could.

She was a mother of two kids when she even started her music career.

So she figured out from the beginning how to become an online musician completely and has been very successful at it.

And now for the first time,

I find myself having to really figure it out.

You know,

I recently was approached by a presenter here in San Francisco called San Francisco Performances.

They're known for producing some of the best classical music concerts in this area.

And I was curating a series of concerts for them this season.

It's a series they call the Salon Series at a space here at the War Memorial Building in San Francisco.

And it was a series of four concerts.

And the last of the series,

Unfortunately,

Had to be canceled because of COVID-19.

And they recently approached me to see if I would participate in a new series that they're going to put together for their subscribers and their supporters that's going to be prerecorded concerts.

And they call it the Sanctuary Series.

And the music is meant to be very contemplative in spirit.

And so one of the concerts that I had offered for them in this series that I curated was the music of Federico Montpo,

Who is a Catalan composer of the 20th century.

And he mostly wrote music for piano.

And he wrote a series of pieces called Musica Callada,

Which is translated as Silent Music.

And they're very short pieces.

And they're very simple pieces,

But very profound and very spacious and very contemplative.

In fact,

Many of them,

Or perhaps all of them,

I don't remember exactly now,

Were inspired by the writings of St.

John of the Cross.

And so when he wrote this piece,

He was really trying to get as close to silence as possible and to express what that could mean musically.

They're really beautiful,

Beautiful pieces.

You can hear recordings of them.

But they want me to record these pieces at a church in Marin County called St.

Stephen's Church,

Which is now empty,

Of course.

And they will videotape them and will do a quality recording.

And they're going to offer it to their subscribers.

Most venues and presenters are now figuring out a way to continue to offer music online.

And when they approached me about the project,

I was instantly very excited for a couple of reasons.

Number one,

I love those pieces.

Two,

I've been entertaining doing a solo piano record for some time.

I wasn't expecting for it to be one of classical music,

My first one,

Being that I'm really known as a jazz pianist.

But I played those pieces for my teacher,

My piano teacher in New York,

Who's a wonderful Russian teacher,

Quite well known.

Her name is Sofia Russell.

Passed away a couple of years back now.

And I was taking lessons from her when I was about to record some of those pieces on another project with Luciana Sosa.

And she really helped me to improve my playing and to bring out the beauty in those pieces.

And she told me,

Once,

You should record these pieces.

Nice,

Nice.

Well thank you so much.

It was,

I really appreciate you taking the time to do this and being so generous with your time and attention.

My mission here on this planet was to offer music,

To become a musician,

And to bring music into people.

But more and more,

It seems like my meditation practice and Buddhist practice is also the reason why I'm here,

As I'm getting older.

I want to thank Edward Simon for taking the time to talk with us.

I hope you found something in this conversation that will inspire your own practice.

And I know you will enjoy listening to Equanimity as it plays through to its end.

And then go save the world.

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