Podcast - What Does It Mean To Be A Conscious Leader

Dion Jensen is a speaker and trainer who has helped politicians, corporations as well as the military unravel the blocks that keep them from shining. He is also the author of The Good News About PTSD and The VIP of Mental Health. In this conversation, we explore how we sit with the discomfort of the unknown and use this vulnerability as strength and more

Transcript

Hi,

Dion.

How are you?

I'm good.

Thank you,

Brother.

It's good to see your face.

It's good to see you too,

Dion.

So thank you so much for joining me on the Truth,

Wisdom,

Freedom conversations.

It really is just a time for us to get together and have some virtual tea time,

Since we're all on lockdown,

And to really talk about things that are related to truth,

Wisdom,

And freedom pertaining to conscious leaders.

As leaders,

Anyone is a leader,

Really.

We all have this leadership capacity within us,

Whether we're a parent of a family or a larger family unit,

Like an organization,

Or you're in charge of a small business or a large business.

We're all being called at this time right now to step up,

To lead our communities.

And what I really love about you,

Dion,

Is that you're someone who transcends many different labels in what society has expected of you,

Being from the military,

And being a military someone with military background,

And then writing the book,

The Good News About PTSD,

And then now the VIP of mental health that has just come out,

Working with corporates and working with military,

And then working with leaders like politicians.

And really,

What we're tapping into here is that leadership is really,

It needs to be grounded in consciousness.

And so I wanted to have a conversation with you,

Because I come from a spiritual background,

And you come from more of this military corporate background,

To see how we can bridge the gap between the two,

Because at the end of the day,

The commonalities are all there.

Yes.

Yeah,

100%.

And what's beautiful about this particular conversation with people that are watching is the evolution of myself through those mental,

Physical,

Spiritual,

Energetic understandings of myself,

You had such a huge hand in that,

Johnson,

Because you were the first one that could articulate what those different parts were,

Without making me feel like it had to be my truth.

And you are one that really fits the description,

Not label,

Because there's a difference between a label and a description,

Really fits a description of a guide,

Brother,

Because you help people,

You guide them through their own process and their own truth.

What resonates with me in this particular theme you have going is the freedom part.

So you've got truth,

Wisdom,

And freedom,

And for me,

It's about that freedom to be yourself without judgment.

And that's,

I think,

Where your journey and my journey started together,

Where you said,

Hey,

You can choose to be all these different things.

Yeah.

And so for those of you who are watching,

I met Dion back in Singapore when I used to live there.

And Dion is from New Zealand,

Where he currently is based.

I'm currently based in Sydney,

And so we've moved around,

But we still kept in touch and that's where we met.

This aspect of freedom,

Let's talk a little bit about freedom and what freedom means,

Because there's for sure the justice perspective of freedom,

Right?

And so what is it that we mean when we talk about personal freedom,

Universal freedom,

True freedom?

What is freedom?

So what is freedom to you when you're working with people?

Great question,

Because it all depends what level people perceive themselves to be.

So someone comes to me and says,

Dion,

I'm really struggling with what to do.

They need a plan.

So I'm like,

Where are you and where do you want to go?

So we keep it very mental,

Keep it down at this level,

And it's a plan,

It's a structured approach.

If someone's saying,

Listen,

This is scaring me,

Dion,

This whole situation is scaring me,

That's an outside influence exerting control over someone and making them feel an internal feeling.

So they don't have the freedom to choose how they want to feel.

The outside situation is causing them to feel something else.

So freedom for me is,

Are you free in that moment to think what you want to think,

Feel what you want to feel,

And do what you want to do?

So I always use think,

Feel,

And do as my particular lens to have a discussion with leaders.

And I'll use one of those three words,

Jonathan,

Think,

Feel,

Or do.

Yeah,

And this is very much anchored in ancient wisdom.

The yogis were very,

Very known for how our thoughts,

Our ability to perceive our reality around us creates the feelings and then also the actions,

The karma that we then put forth into the world.

I mean,

It works like that.

And there's definitely a thought feeling loop that happens with people.

And so if we're constantly inundated with our thoughts of the past,

Or whatever worries,

Doubts,

Or fears that keep us stuck in the past,

And that will create a present loop of feeling that state in the current situation now.

And so I think right now,

Especially with the global situation that's happening,

We're all being asked to look into our closets,

Into our basements,

To look at what cobwebs are laying around and look at certain patterns that we've inherited consciously or unconsciously,

And we need to work through them.

Otherwise,

We're going to carry those stories and make decisions from that place.

And that's really where some people,

If they are in panic and fear,

Right,

All the panic buying that's happening.

That's where that's coming from.

It's coming from an old belief system that might be yours,

It might be your parents,

It might be your grandparents,

About you don't have enough.

I don't have enough because I am not enough,

Because I'm not sufficient.

That's really how we've been conditioned.

This is something we need to break through.

So how is it that you're working with leaders who break through limiting belief system like scarcity,

And I'm not enough,

I'm not worthy,

I'm not deserving?

I'm finding more at the moment,

Because in crisis leadership,

And I'm speaking a lot about crisis leadership,

Leading in crisis is totally different to leading at any other time,

Whether you're leading yourself or you're leading others.

And it's the equivalent of a soldier in peacetime and a soldier in battle.

So a soldier in peacetime,

Their value is not very high.

We didn't value our nurses and doctors very highly at all prior to this COVID-19.

Now we have huge value.

So when you're leading in crisis,

You don't have a lot of time.

The speed,

The scale,

And the stakes are constantly changing.

So how I deal with leaders first is,

What is your number one fear right now?

What is your number one task?

Because it's in the doing,

It's in getting them in that movement and following my instructions.

So when you're leading in crisis,

You tell people what to do,

Because you have to do something to get that movement.

Once you're moving,

Then you're going to see what feelings are manifested,

What people are going to say,

And then you can start altering their thinking.

And if we come back to linking that crisis leadership with freedom that we were talking about,

Everything else is trying to take our freedom to think.

The media is shaping how we're supposed to think as leaders.

The media is shaping how we should feel,

Which is constantly keeping us in a state of fear.

So when I first initially deal with that leader,

That's what I want to know.

As soon as I get them on screen,

If you came to me right now,

John,

And says,

Dion,

You're going to say,

I don't know what to do,

Primarily is what I'm hearing.

I'm,

Without breaching confidentiality,

I'm in this position where I'm in charge of this for the country.

I'm in a position I'm in charge of this for the entire Asia Pacific region,

And I have no idea what to do.

So how do you take them from a thinking space to a feeling space?

Because I don't know what I'm going to do sounds like to me that there's,

We're approaching a situation from the confines of a limited box,

Right?

So from what we know,

And the thing is we're entering into a terrain where it's unknown,

It's uncertain.

And the only thing that is certain is the uncertainty of the entire situation.

So how do we create from the unknown?

So that word is very important to us from the military background,

Because we only have two boxes,

Johnson,

Known and unknown.

So if someone mentions an unknown,

They actually give you the known.

So I don't know what to do tells you that the known is they're required to do something.

Or they think that they have to do something.

So that's where we're starting.

So the unknown is I don't know what to do,

So I throw that away,

Grab the known.

You're expected to do something right now.

In regards to what?

And then they will start giving me that information that stays in the known box,

Not the unknown box.

We keep talking about the unknown box,

We're just going to fill it up with unknowns.

You're going to ask pointless questions.

And all questions will lead back to other unknowns,

Throw that out of the way,

What do we know?

And if someone comes to you with an unknown,

They're actually giving you the known box at the same time.

I don't feel confident that I'm the right leader for this job.

So there is an unknown.

I don't know if I'm confident enough.

You're talking to me,

What do we know?

That's important to you,

Otherwise you wouldn't have brought that up.

And then I'm linking straight into a value system.

I don't play with unknowns.

I execute missions off knowns.

If they're not known,

I'll make one.

Right.

Interesting.

I can see how that is really beneficial working with something that's tangible.

And so how I would sort of rephrase that for myself through the subconscious,

Unconscious blocking work that I do is getting people to first accept the unknown,

Becoming aware that there is an unknown and to stay in the shadows and be okay with sitting in the dark and that that's a perfectly acceptable place to feel okay and not feeling okay.

And when we can own that and accept that,

Yeah,

We don't know,

But let's find out together.

Let's co-create.

Because I think when we're coming from a place of I'm the leader,

I'm supposed to know exactly what to do,

Then it becomes a little bit arrogant,

A little bit presumptuous that you are idolized to the point where you have all the answers.

And I think a conscious leader is someone who recognizes and owns the fact that I'm not sure and I am afraid,

But I'm going to feel the fear.

I'm going to use it as jet fuel to propel me into a new place of creativity and action.

Right.

See,

This is interesting because this demographic,

If we skip across worlds,

You know,

Spiritual and physical,

And then we go to demonstrate military and corporate,

You and I are expressing the two different personalities of a leader and a manager.

So if I'm leading in crisis,

I want you as my manager,

Not my leader,

Because I'm going to stand up and say,

I'm not afraid.

I don't deal with finance.

I know exactly what to do because we've got something to do.

Then I'm going to grab you and say,

Johnson,

Grab this person.

He's got an issue with this,

This,

And this,

Go and work with him,

Make sure he's okay.

Then give him back to me.

He's got work to do.

So that's the balance between a leader and a manager.

As a leader,

I can't do that for my people in crisis.

In peacetime,

I can.

In peacetime,

I can be empathetic,

Vulnerable,

Connected with my people.

Not in crisis.

In crisis,

You have to lead through this because in the military concept,

There's an enemy.

Now,

Without putting a label on what's happening at the moment,

There is an energy that's come towards us that some people can deal with and some people can't,

Whether we call that energy fear,

Whether we call it crisis,

Whatever it is,

There's a river of energy that's come straight through us at the moment.

Some of us love it and grab the surfboard and are enjoying it and are surfing this crisis because we enjoy it,

We know what to do.

Other people are drowning.

Other people have been swept away.

So if you're going to lead,

You've got to be that rock in there first for that safe place and you have to lead.

But then the manager is going to have to do everything else in crisis.

Once it dies down,

Then you can have those conversations.

Just from my perspective.

So you are fulfilling that role of that manager,

That support,

The cheerleader,

And making that person better,

Making that person more resilient,

Helping that person get rid of all those limiting beliefs.

I don't have time for that in crisis.

I'm leading.

I need that person to do their job.

So I need that person capable to do their job.

I'll let my manager support them all the rest of it.

But as a leader,

You have to be conscious of the fact that you've got to be up front and it's not an arrogance.

Who else is going to do it in crisis?

Because if you do nothing,

You're going to get swept away.

Well,

It's about intention and making the choice,

Difficult choices.

In the face of chaos,

We need to make a decision.

And whether you make a decision that might be the wrong decision or a decision that detours you,

You've made a decision and you're going to stick through it.

So it's also about creating certainty out of the uncertainty,

Right?

Knowing that I don't know,

I'm going to make this choice anyway.

And that's something that a leader definitely needs to embody.

This is what's interesting to me.

Why do certain people experience fear as jet fuel and others are paralyzed by it?

Modern science shows that human beings,

As the only mammals on this planet,

Can't reset their HPA axis,

Which is our fight,

Flight,

Freeze response.

We're not able to do that.

We lost that capacity at six weeks old.

Whereas other animals out in the wild,

They do something called neurogenic tremoring.

They'll stop,

They'll shake in the wild if they're getting chased by a predator,

And then they'll carry on with their life and then let that trauma move through.

And this is something I think you've touched on in the good news about PTSD,

The book that you wrote.

So how do we move through a state of trauma while it's happening to us?

And I think that really is what resilience is about.

And if we become very skilled at becoming the rock,

Right,

So that all of these fear,

Panic experiences that come from the collective can kind of move through us like water passing through a sieve,

Then we can be better managers,

Better leaders.

It doesn't matter what you're doing,

Whatever role,

Whatever piece of the puzzle you're playing,

You are now able to move forward.

And that really is the key thing here,

Is how do we as a collective,

As humanity,

Move forward together so that we're not all stuck in this freeze pattern,

I don't know what to do.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And it's interesting to talk about the HPA mechanism because in the military,

That's total training.

We live there.

So we actually reprogram that part of the brain temporarily,

And if you stay in it for too long,

It's natural now.

So as soon as there's some initiation of fear,

We attack.

So that whole freeze and runaway is gone.

It's trained into us that if the threat manifests,

We attack,

No matter what,

Because it's training,

Training,

Training,

Training,

Training,

To be in that state.

So how we get good at anything,

As you know,

You've got to train within that emotional,

Physical state.

If you can get all parts of your system practicing in as close to the environment as you can,

And the military say the more you sweat in training,

The less you bleed in battle.

For those people that use fear as jet fuel,

The stuff operated in the state of fear for a very long time,

Johnson,

And their body and their whole systems have adapted to it.

So for those that haven't,

And for leaders that are experiencing fear,

Is understanding what type of fear that is.

And you and I have different ways of assessing that with different people and in different systems.

But for what I do with leaders,

It's always to complete the objective or the outcomes,

How to get from point A to point B.

What is stopping us getting from point A to point B?

We'll go through,

We'll go under,

We'll go around it.

But it's actually in the mission,

It's in the task of crisis.

When we get to those limiting beliefs,

With leaders,

I'm just bringing the conversation back,

With leaders that can't get rid of this fear,

Can't release this pressure,

That's where all this weight and pressure is coming from,

Is not knowing what to do.

And they just feed that and that builds up.

And it's funny you talk about trimming the animal's tremor and release that energy,

It's because,

I think it's EDM,

Rapid eye movement,

And the muscle tremoring,

And this was,

I think,

Was the baseline for the shock therapy,

Was to be able to release that stored energy.

Well,

With our training,

We let the energy come through us as fuel,

Then it's gone again.

And like you say,

If we hold onto it,

That's the only time it builds up and we need help releasing that.

But when you have the skill,

Because you mentioned skill,

Skill only comes from training and experience where you get the outcome you desire.

So if you've been in a state of fear,

And you know that if something attacks you,

You attack the first harder and stronger,

And you beat it and you carry on,

You'll keep doing it.

If you try to do something in fear and it doesn't work,

You won't do it again.

And every time that fear manifests,

You'll follow that same neural pathway,

And you'll attach that memory to fear,

And every time the same fear comes,

You'll react the same way.

So I agree that we can't reset,

But in the military,

We reprogram that.

Sure.

And the thing is,

Fear is our primary survival sensation that passes through.

It's a biochemical response,

Right?

It's to keep us alive.

That's the benefit of fear.

And a lot of times people,

They demonize fear,

They're like,

Oh,

Gosh,

I'm fearful.

Great,

You're fearful.

Be honest,

Own it.

Okay,

It is a sensation if we allow it to be a sensation and chemicals passing through us.

And then it's what the story we then start to wrap around fear.

That's what keeps people paralyzed.

Like how you were mentioning about animals,

When animals experience fear,

It's for the moment that they're being terrorized by a predator,

A lion coming at them,

The poor little gazelle hides in a bush.

But then after that's done,

The story goes away,

The gazelle continues to drink water from the well and just moves on with life.

And so the tools and techniques that people have nowadays in doing that is like yoga.

Why is yoga become such a big,

Big thing around the world?

It's because it is moving energy.

Fear is an energy,

Right?

So if you've been trained in very high intensity situations in the military to take fear and turn that into action,

That's exactly what the yogic system is doing.

How do we take fear and move that through the limbs and the joints and the bones?

Because we're piezoelectric beings,

Meaning that we conduct electricity,

The signals that go between our brain and the rest of our system is electric.

And so all of our nerve endings are sending out signals to the rest of our body,

To our organs.

Run away,

Run away.

But there's nowhere to run because we're confined at home and we're in front of the computers having to make decisions.

So it's not a natural place to be because as animals,

We want to run or we want to fight.

And so embodiment right now is a very key thing to do for anyone.

It doesn't matter who you are.

Embodiment meaning you need to get in your body.

There are,

You have to take care of your physical body,

Right?

Because the foods that you put into your body,

If they're promoting inflammation,

Like through gluten,

Through,

You know,

Very heavy starchy- Copious amounts of sugar.

Copious amounts of sugar,

Exactly.

It's going to be very hard to get rid of those fear responses because you're adding more fuel to the fear instead of programming and fueling your body to be out of fear.

So there's that first thing,

You have to take care of your physical.

And then there's other ways as well,

Working with,

You know,

Mindful movement practices,

Whether it's Qigong,

Whether you're dancing,

But we need to sweat every day.

That's something we need to do.

Even if you are a busy leader and you don't have time to do that,

If you're not finding time at least three times a week to do that,

And you're just glued to the computer and you're working only from the mind,

For sure,

You're going to be stuck in fear.

So there's practical things that people can do to create a container in themselves to allow for creative solutions to come through.

But that only starts if they are taking care of themselves.

And I know that's really,

Really difficult right now,

Right?

I would say it's a lot easier.

And it's interesting,

We've got to be aware of metaphors,

Right?

So being at home now is really making you notice what you have in your house.

Like I'm super grateful,

I would be away speaking or consulting.

My kids are doing homework virtually on Seesaw at the moment now.

We rescued a Labrador who's asleep in the lounge.

My wife's still out there.

I'm delivering mail as a courier driver.

And I really get to sit in my home and really reconnect back with it.

And so what I'm doing,

And I'd like to,

You know,

If we could both leave some tangibles in this,

Like someone could say,

Yeah,

I love what you guys are saying.

Give me a couple of things to do.

Is when we talk about grounding,

I really feel like,

You know,

We put roots down where we live.

And I really feel like since I've been at home now for quite a few weeks,

I've really put roots down super deep.

I've recharged those roots that existed in the home.

I've noticed,

Hey,

The window sills need sanding and painting.

It would have just been something I've walked past before.

So I'm very grateful for this opportunity to sit still and have a good look around.

And every time I hear your name,

See a message,

See your face,

There's one huge word that just vibrates in my whole system,

Which is notice.

It was the first connecting word that connected you to me,

Johnson,

Was,

Dion,

I just want you to notice.

I want you to notice how you're feeling.

I want to notice how you're thinking.

I want you to notice.

So then once we notice,

It's,

Oh,

This is what we're dealing with.

And I think that for most people,

They don't know what they're dealing with because of those labels.

You know,

People,

I'm anxious,

I'm depressed.

I mean,

Okay,

Are those labels serving you or not?

And are they labels?

Is it a description?

Nevermind the label,

I want you to describe it.

If you say,

Dion,

I'm anxious,

I know that you would say to that person,

Describe what that feeling is to me.

So it might not be anxious.

It could be absolutely something else.

So the first tangible thing I said on the webinar yesterday was,

Write down what you fear,

All of it.

Write down all the things right now,

In the middle of watching this video right now.

Write down this,

What are you scared of?

And then describe that.

Well,

This comes back into the thinking,

Feeling loop.

You know,

You and me are able to sit and express how we feel and articulate.

Not everyone has been given the permission to do that or they haven't done that in a very long time and they've forgotten how.

Maybe it's 20,

30 years that they've been in a pattern of thinking,

Thinking,

Thinking.

And so when we ask people,

How do you feel and describe how you feel,

You know,

Oftentimes when you're in a group situation,

A seminar and people go,

It was good.

What does good mean,

Right?

Because people- I'm gonna start one of your events because I don't think anyone's said anything that basic.

I think every time I've been to one of your group sessions,

Man,

It's been like fireworks and energy going everywhere.

Does anyone watching this,

When this guy sits down and goes,

You know,

Describe it.

You don't have to if you go to one of Johnson's workshops.

Stuff will happen to you and stuff will come out and you'll have this freedom to express and be in examined and noticed.

So sorry to interrupt you.

No,

No,

For sure.

Johnson's workshop is different.

Well,

I'm very much into freeing the innate expression that moves through all of us.

And when we can,

Then we can express and get very meticulous about exactly what it is that we fear.

And then when we can unravel that,

That will all come to the common denominator.

And what we fear is really the fear of the unknown or the fear of death.

And this is the base fear of all fears,

Right?

This is what is said in the ancient yoga sutras.

This is what is known in Buddhism.

We have this thing in us,

This mechanism that is biological that keeps us from hurting ourselves.

Like you're not gonna just stand there one day and just fall over and go.

Like your body is gonna protect itself,

Right?

Unless there's disease or something going on within you,

But you're gonna do everything you can.

You're wired that way,

Right?

And this is called abhinivesha in ancient Sanskrit.

This is the fear of death.

We're just programmed that way.

All fears stem from that fear.

What we need to learn to do is to shine light on that which we perceive as bad or evil or not good about ourselves.

And it's Carl Jung,

Right?

I love Jung.

Who says that.

Yeah,

And he talks a lot about the archetypes,

The voices in our head,

The different roles that we play.

And he says that,

You know,

It's not about imagining the light parts of ourselves and enlightening that.

It's about bringing light or bringing consciousness to the dark aspects of ourselves,

Right?

And I think something that you,

An invaluable tool that you've learned as a fighter,

As a warrior,

Is that you've had to kill people,

Right?

That was part of your job description,

Right?

Metaphorically,

Johnson,

Metaphorically.

Metaphorically,

Right?

No,

But I mean,

In the military,

Everyone's trained to kill.

That's the training,

Yeah.

Right,

And so- Take out and close,

Kill or capture,

Yeah.

Right,

That's what the military does.

They protect and they are the warriors.

And because there's this warrior aspect of I'm gonna become neutral in my task,

Right?

That gives you the resilience to become like the rock that stands there while all of this storm is blowing through us.

And we all,

Not that we all need to learn how to kill,

Right,

But we all need to learn how to do that in our own ways.

Well,

It's interesting,

Because when you're taught how to kill,

You have to dehumanize or demonize the enemy,

Right?

So if I take myself back into the mindset of situation I've been in,

In regards to being ready to take a life,

It's just math.

There's actually no emotion attached to it at all.

And when you start focusing on trying to be the most professional killer,

Which sounds,

You know,

It's probably not a term that people are used to,

You're taught to try and kill with compassion,

To take the shot that doesn't cause any untold harm to someone,

To kill quickly and with some sort of compassion involved in it.

And in some of the countries where I've operated,

People kill each other with no anger,

With no hate,

No nothing,

It's just,

It's a necessity.

And we see this in the animal kingdom where animals kill each other all the time,

But there's no emotion attached to it,

There's no hate attached to it.

And so the danger comes in that particular mindset is when you have power over somebody else.

And it's interesting where the fear of death in all the writings is the biggest fear.

Most of us don't fear death anymore,

Johnson,

And I honestly think,

And this is the cornerstone of the VIP of mental health.

What I'm finding is the biggest fear that people have at the moment,

Being judged probably,

Is value and being devalued and feeling worthless,

And I've written down a word here that I'll come to in a second,

Is the biggest fear.

The reason why leaders are terrified and coming to me for help is they don't want to be judged that they're no good as a leader or judged that they're no good as a person.

And as soon as they start tapping into the fear of being judged,

They're going to judge themselves and their inner critic's going to come out and you're going to get slammed.

And so the word that I wrote down while you were talking is permission.

If there's one thing that Johnson and I can give everyone watching this right now is please take our permission and give yourself permission to think and feel whatever you like.

And you have permission to choose how you want to feel,

And if you don't know how to get there,

Then ask.

But please give yourself permission to move from where you are to where you want to be and any metaphor that suits.

Yeah,

Yeah.

You know,

As you were talking about killing with compassion,

It's such a paradox,

Isn't it?

And there is,

Are you familiar with the Bhagavad Gita?

No.

The Bhagavad Gita is this epic ancient poem.

It's a battle between man and God.

The archetypes are basically man and God.

Arjuna,

Who is this warrior,

He's forced to fight his cousin in the neighboring kingdom.

This is now his family turned on family.

And so he asked for guidance.

And so God comes down in the form of Krishna.

This is from the Hindu tradition pantheon.

And Krishna's like,

Well,

You have your duty.

This is your duty.

And this is a fight between the light and the dark.

And it's this perpetual cycle.

Of course,

There's many different layers about breaking out of the dualistic cycle of light and dark.

But really at the end of the day,

What we're looking at is everything that we're doing in our present embodiment as human beings,

Whether you're a leader or you're a stay-at-home parent or whatever it is,

A student,

We are all playing out a vast spectrum of human experiences that we're meant to experience.

And that can range from the good,

The bad,

The ugly,

Everything from terror to joy.

If we can find compassion and light in the darkest of things,

Because we all know that it's part of the cycle of life,

Then that just makes us even more conscious and more aware.

It makes us less judgmental.

Because it's really about belief systems at the end of the day.

If I take my belief systems and impose it on you,

Then it's really about control.

It's a control issue.

I just want you to see things the way I see it because I fear dying.

It all comes back to that tribal instinct.

When we were back in the cave man days,

If you were ejected from your tribe and you were put out,

You were gonna die.

You were not gonna live alone with all these big,

Big animals out in the wild.

You needed to fit in.

And so the fear of judgment,

Again,

It comes down to the fear of death.

Because if you're fearing being judged,

It's really because you don't wanna get put out.

You're gonna lose your job.

You're not gonna have any security.

You're gonna lose your house.

And so you are probably not gonna literally die,

But life as you know it might die.

However,

Literally people are taking their life because of that path.

Because when your value,

Because once your value decreases through all the things that you just spoke about,

You get to a point now where you're now isolated and alone with no value to someone else.

You're judged and you can't fit in.

So the chance of you surviving is slim.

So a lot of people are going down the mental illness path and are taking their life.

So we come all the way down that value path and then we have the highest suicide rate in New Zealand.

22 soldiers are killing themselves every day because that path,

The natural continuation of sliding downwards through that value triangle is the amount of people that take their life because they haven't given themselves permission to be comfortable with who they are first and then resonate and group up with other people that aren't.

And I think that's why this group is really important because,

I don't know if Johnson wants me to tell you this,

But I'm going to do it anyway because I've got a line thing on and he's the real nice guy,

Right?

You know,

Johnson worked a lot with entrepreneurs and he's feeling like I feel that we need to be working with leaders.

Why?

Because leaders have the influence.

How are we collectively going to put humanity on the path where we can be our best self,

Our highest self?

And because we're not acting that way towards ourselves or the environment,

Is it has to come through those portals of influence and those portals of influence are leaders.

And it's interesting as Johnson talks,

That in my leadership mindset,

I'm always looking to put teams together.

If there's an issue,

I understand the situation.

Straight away,

My mind goes towards what team could I put together to fix that issue?

And so if the issue was helping humanity and the environment be their best self,

I need someone that can help people be the best versions of themselves.

I need people to help those best versions know what to do,

To challenge thinking,

So we can change culture.

And that's the only way we're going to collectively build this together.

But we have to notice and be intentional and conscious as leaders to do that.

And we can't do that if we're not being honest with ourselves.

You can wear a mask as long as you like.

And some of us are masters at making masks and Johnson is a master of just ignoring those masks and saying,

Hey,

It's not that at all.

It's this,

What's that?

So I think collectively,

We have to do that.

And so another tangible for leaders is,

We're giving you permission to write down what you fear,

What you think is going wrong,

Or even what's going right.

But the more conscious and honest we are about that,

Because we're on Zoom,

People are going to see this.

A lot of people are going to show their best side,

Not the fact that I'm yelling and screaming at my kids 10 minutes before the call to say,

Would you be quiet?

I'm about to go on a Zoom call to show people how to handle stress and leadership and relax.

You've got to be honest if you want to be a leader and acknowledge what's going on around.

Yeah,

For sure.

Before I was setting up,

I was dropping things,

I was spilling things,

I was,

Oh God.

And there was a level of scatteredness as I was getting set up for this call.

But then I have to carry on and I can curse and scream.

But then it's choice.

It's about choosing not being reactive.

And as you were talking about death and about what's happening with the pandemic,

The suicide rates in New Zealand,

What that brought up for me was the art of dying,

The art of consciously dying.

And this is something that has been coming up a lot.

And I've experienced this a lot.

And this doesn't mean a literal death because we're not,

Again,

We are not biologically programmed to offer ourselves.

It's just not natural,

Right?

So if that is a desire that is coming up,

What that actually means is that there's a certain archetype or a part of ourself,

Which is really wrapped around the ego identity and a perception of how we shouldn't be that wants to die,

Right?

And so if we can allow this metaphorical death of the ego,

Of who we think we should be,

Of what the world says we should become,

If we can let that die,

Which is just,

Again,

Belief systems,

Programs,

And condition patterns,

If that can go away,

Then what's left?

Who are we?

That's a scary question to ask some people because people will automatically amplify their identity that gives them the most value.

The reason why there's so many suicidal soldiers out there is because they had all the value of being a soldier,

Now they're not.

There's so many suicidal divorcees because they had all the value of being the husband or being the wife,

And now they're not.

And so I think that value system that's attached to that identity,

That's why I got you to write the paradox of identity in my book because you're attaching a value to an identity.

And this is a thing,

Identity with a small I and identity with a big I,

Right?

If we identify with the limited small aspects of ourselves,

Which is this part of ourself where we only see ourselves in this box,

I am X,

Y,

And Z.

Let's say,

Let's use the example of the soldier.

I am a soldier and these are the things I do.

This is how I provide value for the military,

For the community,

For the world,

And this is how people see that I benefit them.

This is who I am,

Right?

So that's the limited small I.

It's a close,

Narrow focus.

Then the big I is recognizing that,

Yes,

I am this small I,

This military person,

But I am also a singer.

I also work with,

Like yourself,

I work with corporates,

I speak,

I train.

I do all these other things that are different aspects of myself.

I like to play many,

Many things and recognizing that and owning that and then allowing life to come in and to help you create new experiences that are outside your box.

That's the big I.

That's how we can move forward.

But if people are stuck in the small I,

Then what needs to happen is that they need to learn how to let that part of self consciously die.

And that sometimes feels really gross.

It might have a physical response.

You might puke and you might cry,

You might shout,

Whatever it is,

Sold.

You have to release it.

For me,

My big release was releasing my importance and my significance.

I'm only significant to,

Like you say,

The word value.

I see it as,

It is value.

It's also significant.

How significant am I,

Right?

And then if I can learn to be comfortable in not being significant and I'm okay with dissolving and fading away,

Then I've come to terms with death.

And this is something that we've all done as soldiers.

We first get comfortable with death.

And on my corporate retreats,

I have death days.

But I'd like to finish this call off because I've got another Zoom call after this one.

Is there's a part of your book from Kama to Dama.

And I always remember this part and it's coming back to my mind now of when you gave yourself to the river.

Yeah.

And this is,

Everything I'm talking about is the river,

The rock and the eagle,

Right?

The river's this crisis river of energy.

The rock is you as a leader and the eagle is the vision.

You've got to keep that vision going out there.

And as we're talking and all I'm thinking and remembering is that time in your book where you gave yourself to the river instead of fighting the river and trying.

You just gave yourself to the river and the river took you where you needed to go.

It took you deep when it needed to go deep and dark.

It took you up towards the sunlight.

And then when you came out the other side,

You'd been through that journey totally outside of your control,

But you gave permission to release yourself to the river.

Yeah.

So if anyone's watching this right now,

Get that book.

Sage Sapien,

You've got to get that book.

I love the cover too,

By the way.

That is So You.

I love that cover,

But anyone watching this,

Grab Sage Sapien and read that book and look for the bit about the river.

If you're a leader,

I'm going to give Johnson a big plug.

When we talk about freedom,

There's a lot of weight of responsibility as a leader.

It gets heavy and it should get heavy because there's a lot of responsibility for people's lives.

So when I come into these groups and I talk to Johnson,

And Johnson's one of my guides,

One of my mentors,

It's like I take this heavy pack of leadership responsibility off for a bit.

I can put it down and give myself permission to have the freedom from that weight and sit here and just be myself and listen and learn and interact.

So if anyone watching this,

Get in and have these conversations.

Give yourself permission just to take that pack of leadership off and that weight and responsibility and just put it down for a little bit and then have these conversations.

Then take some pieces out because you might find you're carrying a lot of heavy stuff you don't really need to carry anymore.

Yeah,

Beautiful.

Thank you so much for sharing that.

And I really respect and honor what it is that you do and everything you do for all the different dimensions of communities that you serve,

From government to military to organizations,

Organizational development with corporates.

It's just,

You're such a visionary with mental health and being an advocate of that.

And you're such a warrior of light,

And it's beautiful.

So Dion has these two wonderful books,

The Good News About PTSD and The VIP of Mental Health.

And what I really love about getting together with Dion when we chat and we talk spiritual is that the language that Dion uses is not necessarily mainstream spirituality,

But he understands it in his own way,

In his very felt way.

And everything that he's doing is like,

As he's describing the river,

The rock and the eagle,

That's very shamanic,

Right?

It comes from shamanic wisdom,

Right?

And then when you're talking about notice,

That's Buddhist witness consciousness.

That's about becoming the witness,

Right?

And so all of these things that you've come to in your own journey,

In your own life,

It's so beautiful to see how across the board,

It's all the same really.

We just use different words,

Different labels to express things.

But at the end of the day,

It's about coming into our own authenticity,

Our truth,

Being honest and upfront with what it is that we're experiencing.

And so you can call it whatever you want,

Right?

But at the end of the day,

If you're not feeling at peace or centered with yourself and more loving,

And you're feeling thrown because of the frenetic energy that is around you,

And you're not letting the river do its thing,

You can't fight the river.

I fell into a river,

You know?

Like I,

What am I gonna do?

You know,

I can like,

I gotta go upstream.

And this is a really fast,

You know,

Ganga river.

Like it's,

You know,

I was whitewater rafting and I know whitewater raft.

What am I doing in this place?

And I,

And we went overboard,

You know?

And we were,

And it was a class five rapid.

Like I had to make peace with,

Okay,

I'm gonna die now.

But there was a,

Of course there was this whole fight.

I was fighting and I was scrambling up to the surface.

And then I was tired.

I was honestly tired.

And I realized like,

Okay,

I need to put all this yogic,

Calm,

Breathing training into practice now.

Okay,

You're being tested,

Johnson.

Go down.

And then I shut my mind off and then I went down.

You know,

There's this inner guidance within me that said,

Swim down,

Don't go up.

That's fighting.

Go down,

Surrender to the river.

So when I went down,

I,

It just got really dark and really quiet.

And there was all of this peace.

And then in that moment I accepted,

You know what,

I might go right now,

But this is really peaceful.

I'm really happy here.

It was really nice,

Actually.

You know,

It was scary at first.

And then once I crossed a certain threshold where it felt like there was infinite time and space,

It just was infinity.

I just felt infinite peace.

And then I just kept going and going.

And then I was just flowing.

I don't know where I was.

And all of a sudden,

You know,

Someone stuck an oar out and then I grabbed it.

And I'm like,

Oh wow,

Look,

I'm alive.

Interesting,

Right?

It's our attachment.

It's our attachment to our metaphorical death as the person that we think we're supposed to be,

You know?

And so if you are a leader of whatever it is that you're leading,

Your tribe,

Your community,

Your people,

Your business,

You need to step up and own the fact that you don't know.

We don't know what we don't know.

So we don't know.

So let's co-create that together and ask,

And ask for support.

Because I think that's another thing with leaders is who do you ask for support?

You're the leader.

That's right.

And that's where the corporate retreats,

The one-on-one mentoring and coaching is critical for leaders because you don't want other leaders to know that you're vulnerable.

You don't want your competition to know you're vulnerable.

You need full safety,

Security,

And confidentiality to come and burst into tears,

Release all this pressure,

Let all that energy go through,

Retrain,

Rebuild,

And go out there happier and calmer.

And please don't wait until you fall off a raft in the rapids.

And please don't wait for combat.

And please don't wait for near-death experiences.

Please,

If you're watching this,

You can get the benefits of everything that we spoke about without all the danger and all the risk attached to it.

So please don't wait for that.

Come in here now after seeing this and get in touch with Johnson or myself.

But I have to go now.

I've also seen why I had to edit this last bit out.

Well,

Thank you so much for your time.

And it's always lovely seeing you and talking with you and sharing with you.

Thanks.

Okay.

Have a great day.

Thanks for it.

Bye.

Bye-bye.