Mystery Of Parallel Universes | Bernard Carr & Sadhguru

Renowned cosmologist Prof. Bernard Carr explores the mystery of parallel universes with Sadhguru in a discussion facilitated by Dr. Bala Subramaniam, Professor of Anesthesiology at Harvard Medical School. The event was hosted by the Sadhguru Center for a Conscious Planet at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center.

Transcript

Time is the fundamental firmament,

Space is happening on top of it.

Can one escape time?

The way I am made is not different from the way the universe is made.

We don't know what the dark energy is,

It's meant to be some sort of cosmological constant but it makes the universe accelerate.

Generally in science you call it a theory,

I call it my experience.

If I give you a simple line,

Can you build mathematics for it?

Sadhguru chants Kalo na janati tava jananam Kalo na janati tava samapanam Drushtu mayatava mahakarah Yogeshwara kala kala Yogeshwara kala kala Sadhguru chants Kalo na janati tava jananam Because I said something in a language that you don't understand,

I think I should explain a bit.

Thank you,

Thank you.

I'll make it simple.

It's a chant talking about how cycles of time can either crush us or trap us or if we ride them,

It can liberate us.

Only one who has risen above the duality of one's existence,

Only one who is in yoga,

Which means one who has known the union of one's existence with everything else,

Only he will rise above the time and only one who rises above the time has mastery over life.

I think the topic which is being given tonight is the discussion of making space and time for consciousness.

And so one of the questions is,

How does one escape time?

Can one escape time?

And you refer to cycles of time,

Which relates to the question of whether time is linear or time is cyclic,

Which is a topic of great philosophical interest.

And in fact,

That is something which I would like to talk to you about.

And it's a question which arises both in the context of cosmology,

Which is my professional discipline.

When we look at the universe,

It's full of cyclic processes,

And even the universe itself could be a cyclic process.

Now,

At the moment,

Most cosmologists would say we don't live in a cyclic universe because the universe is accelerating because of what's called the dark energy.

We don't know what the dark energy is.

It's meant to be some sort of cosmological constant,

But it makes the universe accelerate rather than re-collapse.

So if you ask most cosmologists,

They say,

Well,

No,

The future of the universe is it will expand forever and it will get more and more dispersed.

Eventually,

We won't even be able to see the other galaxies.

They'll be so far away.

But that's interesting because if you read most of the religious texts,

Especially,

I think,

From the Eastern tradition,

The Hindu and the Buddhist texts,

There the indication is that the universe is going to re-collapse and that you will actually have cycles of the universe.

And I have to confess,

Personally,

I've always favored a cyclic universe because everything in the world we know of has cycles.

And it turns out that the time of the cycle is something like 20 billion years.

And that's remarkably close.

I mean,

If the universe is going to re-collapse,

It will re-collapse on that sort of timescale probably.

And modern cosmologists have only discovered this in the last 50 years using their telescopes.

And so it's remarkable that Buddha and maybe other mystics were able to get this information,

Whatever it was,

500 BC,

Many,

Many years ago.

So it's like you have this inner space station.

So we're spending,

Through science,

We're spending billions of dollars to get this information,

Whereas one's getting it from these mystical insights for free,

Of course.

It's not free,

Sir.

It's not free,

It costs life.

It costs life.

It costs life,

It's not free.

I see,

Okay,

Fair enough.

Dollars come from somewhere else,

Life goes waste looking at these things.

But to me,

This is an important point about the link between science and spirituality.

One thinks of them as being opposed.

From my perspective,

They're both studying the physical universe,

And they can both be applied to study the physical universe from an outer perspective and from the inner perspective.

And I think ultimately there is agreement.

Well,

If it's the same truth,

If it's the same universe they're looking at,

There has to be agreement.

There has to be concordance.

And I think that's remarkable.

So I know there's been a tradition of inner science in Indian philosophy for many years,

Thousands of years.

But in Western philosophy,

The focus is all on outer science.

And I think part of this union between science and spirituality will be the realization that inner science and outer science must merge.

And of course,

My having this conversation with such.

.

.

So you're on the top,

Sir,

I'm.

.

.

This is so.

.

.

Oh,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And by the way,

Whoever prepared this backlog,

It is beautiful.

I mean,

I don't know if it was done specially for this conversation,

But it's.

.

.

All these equations,

They make me feel at home.

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the only thing I would like to say is,

We're talking about the physical universe,

Because I am professionally a cosmologist.

So I can talk about cosmology without getting into trouble.

And so when we talk about cycles and the timescale of cycles,

That's conventional cosmology.

And so if there are any physicists in the room,

You should be happy about that.

However,

I know this conversation,

I hope this conversation,

Is going to veer into other domains,

Where one is going beyond the physical universe.

Because I think one of the lessons one gets from,

Well,

Mystical insights,

Is that there are other levels of reality beyond the material.

I think I refer to this as the domain of post-materialist science.

Originally,

Sadhguru was talking about cycles of time,

And I'm talking about,

So far,

Cycles of time within the physical cosmology.

But there are also cycles of time which go beyond physics,

And I know we'll get onto that later.

But I should maybe ask you to react to this.

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE Because today,

Modern science,

The methodology is to come up with a concept,

Make a theory,

Build a mathematical backbone,

And then look for elements of proof which could confirm those things.

I believe that's a methodology.

The methodology of mysticism or… mysticism,

Or yogic way of looking at things is to turn inward and look at what we are made of.

This is coming from the fundamental… In science,

You would say an assumption.

In my experience,

I say,

From the fundamental knowing,

The way I am made is not different from the way the universe is made.

I am just a tiny bit,

But still,

You can sit here with these little eyes,

You can look up and look at a galaxy.

This is because this is made the same way,

And we are able to reflect that.

There are some studies,

People say that they have looked at the vision and landscapes of some insects or something,

Some experiments have been made,

Where they're saying their vision and their thing doesn't go beyond their survival requirements.

So,

This capability we have because we are able to reflect the entire universe within us,

If we wish.

In fact,

Everything that we are seeing is only a reflection.

Right now,

These people seem to be here,

But we are only seeing them the way they are reflecting in the firmament of our minds.

There is simply no other way to see it.

So,

Having said that,

The fundamental instruments of perception is just this – how we keep it.

Different people can see different things based on how sharp they keep themselves.

When I say see,

I'm not only talking about visual apparatus.

We see through the five senses and more.

So,

In this context,

The way we see this is,

Because of your cosmology,

Inevitably you're… The other day,

The boss didn't allow you to speak about time because he said,

No,

It's time.

But you had spoken about space,

Which I see personally as a consequence of time.

Well,

Let me just articulate in simple words,

What is the way we see the universe and see if… how many overlaps are there.

And if there are things that don't overlap,

We can examine why they don't overlap.

It's like this.

In the… In the yogic principle,

The universe was like this.

This is usually represented as an oberus,

A snake,

A cobra running into each other,

Mouth and tail included,

And a hood rising here.

So,

This is not the European oberus,

I know.

They make it a circle.

But this is how it was.

So,

We call this anant.

That means it's infinite.

It's infinite.

Infinite,

Yeah.

Infinite,

I'm sorry.

We're Indians.

You invented the concept.

No,

I'm… I want to tell you it's not a concept.

This infinite or infinity was like this.

The nature of infinity,

I don't have to tell you,

But for everyone,

If you make infinity plus ten,

It's still infinity.

Infinity minus million,

Still infinity.

So,

Your mathematics don't work.

You do plus,

Minus,

Multiply,

Divide,

Nothing.

So,

It was like this.

You could do nothing with it.

Then it unfolded and became like this.

Then we call this shoonya.

Shoonya means emptiness.

It became empty.

What was infinite became empty.

This is very important to understand this.

What was that which is infinite?

Was it not empty?

We could not even call it empty or full at that time because it's infinite.

There's no plus,

Minus to it,

No multiplication and division to it.

So,

It was this way.

It uncoiled itself to become nothing.

Nothing means we must put a hyphen between no and thing.

It is a no thing,

But it has a presence now.

This presence,

I'm assuming,

Maybe this presence is what the modern scientists are calling as dark energy or dark force or whatever.

But it's very appropriate because we call this shoonya or kala.

The word kala means empty.

The word kala means darkness.

The word kala means time.

The word kala means space.

All these four things became somewhat manifest because it became a kala.

So,

This is here as emptiness.

But we call this infinite space.

Must mark my words,

It's infinite… infinite space,

Not time because there is no distinction.

It is time which is unfolding to become space.

So,

Once it became kala like this,

You can see it as emptiness,

You can see it as time,

You can see it as space,

You can see it as the manifest… first manifestation of that which doesn't have a form.

Anything that doesn't have a form is also called kala.

So,

What was infinite space became zero.

Now plus one is plus one,

Minus one is minus one.

Suddenly,

There is… there is no physicality yet,

But there is a mathematical foundation for its physicality.

Now,

Once it became empty like this,

This… the word shunya is… in terms of written word,

For the first time it's seen about four-hundred B.

C.

There's a… there are documents where clearly the word shunya and the… the… the mark of a zero is there.

It traveled to Arabia in early… you know,

The next part of how we count time today because those divisions are not there in our minds.

Because we have to communicate with the English-speaking world,

We… we have also come that the cut-off date is somewhere two-thousand years ago.

Otherwise,

We don't have those cut-offs in our minds.

So,

I'm… I'm just saying a… What are you calling it now?

A.

D.

?

A.

D.

?

It's not A.

D.

Anymore,

What are they calling it?

A.

C.

?

C.

E.

C.

E.

,

It's called C.

E.

Now,

Common Era or something.

Oh,

C.

E.

,

Yes.

So,

In the Common Era,

In the first,

Second century or maybe by third,

Fourth century,

It traveled to Arabia because Indian traders were maintaining trade routes from India,

From… right from the bottom of India,

That is southernmost parts of India,

Right up to Damascus,

Jerusalem,

Aleppo.

Even today,

Aleppo city is supposed to be 8,

500 years old and that city was built by taxing the Indian traders.

So,

The live transaction was a daily business,

People were traveling quite a lot.

So,

It traveled to Arabia where they called it Saifa.

The word Saifa again meant empty.

This Saifa came to Europe.

In Latin,

They called it Zephyrium.

That went to Venice,

Where it was the hub of many things happening in Europe and there they called it Zero and the English called it Saifa.

These days,

Nobody is using that word Saifa.

When we were growing up,

It was common to use the word Saifa in English language,

But I don't know in… As a code,

As a secret code.

Oh,

Is it?

What the word Saifa is to do in English… Zero.

…is connected with coding,

But this is a different context.

Yeah.

We used to use the word Saifa as a zero.

When say,

It was used in a derogatory way,

Oh,

He is a Saifa,

Means he is nothing kind of thing.

So,

This aspect,

Once it became nothingness,

But it was a firmament of tremendous existence,

But without physical form.

Then we go into a more,

What to say,

A dialectical way of expressing this,

Where we say,

We're calling this Kala as a being,

A large,

Formless,

Not large,

Infinite,

Formless being.

Infinite cannot have a form,

Of course.

So,

It's a being.

And he breathes.

He was inhaling.

Inhaling is a long process,

May be running into millions or billions of years,

There are calculations for that.

I'm not the mathematician for that.

And when he exhaled,

When he exhaled,

It's not that he has nostrils,

He exhales from everywhere.

If we did not have nostrils… Actually,

Even our skin is resp… you know,

It's not only perspiring,

It's also respiring,

You know.

So,

We're breathing through our… every pore in the skin like that.

When he breathed,

That created a certain amount of energy.

That we call as shakti.

Shakti came out of him.

When energy came out of him,

Then this… this firmament of nothingness,

Which is a powerful force,

It started reverberating initially,

Then caused ripples.

Those ripples led to cyclical movements.

So,

With these cyclical movements,

The first physical forms came out and it all over burst forth.

As these cycles became more and more complicated,

From whatever we call as electrons,

Protons,

Atoms,

Planetary systems,

Universes,

All these evolved because of cyclical movements.

Fundamentally,

We see physicality as a consequence of cyclical movement.

Our very birth is because of the cyclical movements in our mother's body,

Otherwise we wouldn't be born.

There is a yogic doomsday,

You would like to know something.

So,

Studying these cycles,

Feeling these cycles in our own bodies and studying these cycles,

Things were figured out because we were more interested in how to transform life here and how to make a human being go beyond these cycles.

As I said earlier,

The cycles of time are such,

They can crush you.

Why in their childhood they were like this and now they've become like this,

Lot of people.

Time has crushed them.

People think it's their experiences of life,

This and that.

No,

That is only an excuse.

It's actually time which has crushed them.

Or the same time could trap people.

They're okay but they're bored and they don't know what to do with themselves.

Do you mean crush them in the sense that they die?

No,

That will anyway happen but when they're alive they feel crushed by time.

The cycles of time just crushes them day in and day out.

Many people wish the sun doesn't come up tomorrow morning but it comes up and they have to go to work.

It crushes them.

You know,

In United States they have Thank God it's Friday.

It means they don't have to wake up tomorrow morning.

TGIF we used to call it.

Caltech there was a we used to have the TGIF celebration every Friday.

So,

We want to break these cycles.

So,

Any cycle naturally has a centripetal force and a centrifugal force.

If you get caught up in the centripetal,

You get crushed.

If you ride the centrifugal,

Then you're released,

A tangent is formed.

So,

To attain to this tangent is the goal of life in the East.

We call this mukti,

Nirvana,

Moksha,

Whatever.

Essentially,

We want to ride the physical cycles in such a way we are liberated from the physical cycles.

How did people see these things?

How did people come up with these things?

This is always a question.

Well,

How did the modern scientists see something?

Today,

Everybody is talking about Hubble and whatever the other one,

John,

What,

John Space?

James Webb Space,

Whatever.

What are these instruments?

These instruments are just extensions of our own senses.

Only because we have eyes.

Only because we have eyes,

The telescope means something.

Otherwise,

It's a… What is a telescope for a man who has no eyes?

Simply nothing,

All right?

It's just a pipe.

With a few mirrors and maybe lenses or whatever it is,

It's just a pipe.

It's a metal pipe.

We can use it for something,

But you can't use it because inside they've blocked it with so many things.

Quite expensive.

Expensive pipe.

I agree with that.

So,

I'm saying only because we have eyes,

We are making instruments which will extend our eyes.

So,

This extension was done in so many different ways.

One of the things that we did was that we created energetic forms which would make us look very,

Very far.

Today,

Unfortunately,

It is all being misunderstood and misrepresented,

But there were instruments with which we could look very far.

We could open windows into the cosmos.

These we called as our deities.

These are not gods.

There is no concept of god in the East.

Are you talking about modern telescopes or ancient metaphor?

Both.

There were no ancient telescopes.

No,

I meant metaphorical.

Yes,

They saw things by creating energetic forms.

You have definitely heard of,

Because he was in your neighborhood,

Ramanujam.

Yes,

Of course.

So,

When people asked him,

Some 3,

900 mathematical formulations he came out with,

Which is still being debated and discussed and people are trying to understand what he wrote.

When people asked him,

He was dying of tuberculosis.

He sat on his deathbed and simply poured out mathematics.

When people asked him,

How does this come?

He said,

My Devi,

Which means my goddess,

Bleeds mathematics.

Ramanujam was at my college,

Trinity.

Yes.

But before my time,

So I never met him.

And to me,

That is a fascinating example of how one can get information about the universe,

Not just through the intellect,

But through inspiration.

As you say,

He thought he had his inspiration.

If I want… If I should correct that,

Sir,

I'm sorry.

Of course.

You never get information through your intellect.

You get information through your senses and there in the… in the intellect,

You mess it up.

Well… I mean to say you match it with the old information and try to make sense out of it.

I wouldn't… I wouldn't like to admit that we always mess it up,

But I think… No,

No,

I'm saying we're trying to make sense out of it.

But normally,

What we think is sensible right now is actually blocking us because what we think is smart,

We can't leave.

What we think is stupid,

We can leave easily.

So,

You've made so many interesting points,

Sadhguru,

That… Well,

I'm not sure I can remember them all,

But can I react to some of them?

I will remind you.

Yeah.

First of all,

I'm glad you mentioned Ramanujan and mathematics because one of the fascinating things about physics is that ultimately the language of physics is mathematics.

You can see a few equations behind.

And… and that is showing that our understanding… because mathematics is a creation of the mind.

And there's a curious circularity because mathematics underlies physics,

Physics underlies our understanding of the universe,

The universe produces life and brains,

And then the brains produce the minds which produce the mathematics.

So,

You've got this curious cycle,

The fact that the universe is comprehensible.

I mean,

You were sort of decrying,

In a certain sense,

Intellect,

But intellect is part of the process involved in mathematics,

An incomplete process,

But it's… because it's just the left-hand side of the brain trying to sort of understand things.

And to me,

That's always fascinating,

Why mathematics is actually able to describe the universe.

It's a miracle,

We talked about miracles quite a lot,

But it seems such a miracle that human beings,

With their limited brains,

Are able to understand so much of the universe.

I mean,

We've only been around,

Well,

10,

000 years or whatever it is,

And yet we already claim we can almost understand the universe.

Physicists claim they can almost understand the universe completely.

Now,

I suspect that claim will turn out to be wrong,

But at least it is a miracle that we can understand so much.

So,

That's why I sort of reacted to the argument that intellect messes things up.

I agree,

It's often wrong,

And in fact I suspect most things turn out to be wrong in the end in physics,

But one shouldn't worry too much about what's right and wrong.

I think what's interesting is the path.

I think most theories of physics end up being wrong,

But that doesn't mean it isn't useful,

Because it's the path which is important,

Rather than the final paradigm,

Which is always going to change.

I remember there's a statement that mathematics is the language of God.

I don't know if this is a statement in the Indian philosophy,

But mathematics is the language of God,

It is sometimes said.

On the other hand,

I know that Rumi said that the language of God is silence,

And that maybe is more consistent with what you're saying.

So,

That's the first point I wanted to make.

The importance of mathematics,

Although ultimately it can't reveal everything,

I still think it's important,

And that's why I loved your reference to Ramanujan,

Who was a spokesman for mathematics,

Which came,

I think,

From his deities,

From his angels,

Rather than just through his intellect.

I loved the moment when you took your infinity,

And it turned into zero.

Because,

As people will know,

I spoke about the cosmic uroboros in my talk on Thursday.

And I love the cosmic uroboros,

Because it encapsulates all the triumph of physics in coming to understand the physical universe.

But,

Of course,

The most interesting aspect of the uroboros is where the head meets the tail.

And I said,

Well,

The head corresponds to the universe,

And we know how big the universe is,

10 to the 27 centimetres,

And the tail corresponds to the Planck scale,

10 to the minus 33 centimetres.

Well,

Those are only the biggest and smallest scales,

As we understand it.

Really,

What those scales represent,

It's infinity and zero.

OK,

The largest scale is infinity,

And the smallest scale is zero.

And,

Of course,

We reduce them to finite amounts so we can understand them.

But,

To me,

The really interesting point about the uroboros,

The top of the uroboros,

Is that is where infinity meets zero.

Now,

The symbol of the uroboros is like a zero,

You remember.

But the symbol which Sadhguru used is,

Of course,

The symbol of infinity.

And I came across your representation of that on the website somewhere.

It's a beautiful image.

In fact,

I think I even showed it briefly at the beginning of my talk.

But I'm not sure if it was intended.

But,

To me,

That was a fascinating thought,

Because it shows that,

In some sense,

Infinity is zero.

And that's how the universe began.

Because,

From a physicist's point of view,

The universe began in a vacuum.

We don't know exactly what happened at the beginning of the universe.

But,

In some sense,

There was just pure energy.

There was no matter,

No form,

No structure.

So,

It just started out of a vacuum.

And the vacuum,

I suppose,

Corresponds to zero.

But it also corresponds to infinity.

Because,

From my perspective at least,

At the top of the uroboros,

That may be the end of physics as we understand it.

But actually,

From my perspective,

That is where mind and spirit come in.

And so that,

From my perspective,

If we want to have an extension of physics,

It's there at the top of the uroboros that we're going to somehow find mind and spirit.

And maybe,

From a cosmological perspective,

That is where the universe has come from.

Because if you believe that mind,

In some sense,

Was prior to matter,

You must find it there,

At the top of the uroboros,

Precisely where your zero and your infinity meet.

Now,

And then you refer to all the different cycles of time.

The other thing about the uroboros is that there are all those different levels of structure.

You remember I talked about them.

There's biological time with human beings,

There's planetary time,

There's stellar time,

Galactic time.

So,

The physical world is full of all these cycles.

And so,

When the material world was created in the Big Bang,

It led,

Through a process of evolution,

To all these different levels of structure,

Which had all the different cycles,

All the different time scales,

Which,

Of course,

Range over a huge range.

I mean,

That cosmic uroboros was expressed in terms of space,

In terms of spaces,

The scales of things.

It could equally well have been expressed in terms of the time scales of things.

Because every length scale goes with a time scale.

You mentioned space and time are intimately connected.

And so,

You could also put time scales around that diagram.

Every level of structure has a time scale associated with it.

And so,

That is a manifestation of the physical world,

That there are all these cycles.

And we,

As human beings,

Of course,

We experience a limited range of these cycles.

And I was impressed,

Almost depressed,

When you said how it's the cycles which can overwhelm us.

The experience of these cycles can be almost depressing because you feel that it's just an everyday life,

Constantly.

I always.

.

.

I hate shopping.

And I find having to go shopping every day,

Especially when my wife is away,

Having to every day shop and then cook every day and then wash every day,

It's a bit overwhelming.

So,

I think I understood what you meant by that.

And.

.

.

But that's part of it.

It is part of cycles.

And.

.

.

And I.

.

.

But all I want to.

.

.

One thing I want.

.

.

I must tell you,

In yoga,

These cycles are referred to as samsara.

Yes,

Yeah.

But in common society,

In the language,

The word samsara means family.

Oh,

Right.

Oh,

I didn't realize that.

Oh,

Right.

Well,

I can.

.

.

Actually,

I don't have any children,

But I can imagine that that's.

.

.

I can imagine that's samsara,

Yeah.

Suppose you went to a lab and you found a new universe,

It doesn't matter,

You still have to come home.

Yes,

Yes,

Yeah.

And yet,

Of course.

.

.

And,

Of course,

From Buddhism,

I understand the concept of samsara and the constant cycle of birth and rebirth and how one needs to escape from that.

And so my understanding is that although there are all these cycles in the physical world,

That there is an escape from all those cycles,

Which I understand,

Although don't experience,

Is in some sense the aim of,

I suppose,

Of the mystical path,

To escape from the cycle.

I have to say,

Personally,

I've never had a.

.

.

I'm not a very spiritually evolved person and I know I'm not going to become enlightened in this life.

Why?

Why do you say that?

Well,

I.

.

.

I.

.

.

Because I meet more spiritually evolved people.

You're trying to destroy my work.

No,

No.

Because my work is to make sure that everybody.

.

.

It doesn't matter who you are,

What you are,

The possibility is always there.

Will you invest in the possibility or not?

That's left to individuals.

But if you say it's not possible,

Then you're trying to destroy my work.

Don't do that.

Well.

.

.

Well,

If by becoming enlightened,

I can justify your work,

I will strive to become enlightened.

Yeah.

But all I.

.

.

All I.

.

.

All I mean is that I don't personally feel I've been very successful.

I mean,

I meditate and things like that.

But.

.

.

But.

.

.

And I know.

.

.

But I have many spiritual friends.

Many.

.

.

And.

.

.

Yeah.

And.

.

.

And I.

.

.

I like to think that their spirituality rubs off on me somehow.

No,

Sir.

This is a wrong sense of the term spirituality spreading around in the world.

Okay.

To be spiritual,

You need not be going to a temple,

Church or mosque,

You need not be praying,

You need not be meditating,

Nothing.

It is just that if you're sincere enough I'm using the word sincere because if you're sincere enough,

You know you don't know a damn thing.

Hmm.

That means you're always.

.

.

Your intelligence is always seeking.

If you keep yourself that way,

You're spiritual.

Okay.

So,

I've not given up on you.

Oh,

Thank you.

Well,

I feel I will be more spiritual after this conversation.

Yeah.

And so,

One thing I would like to talk about,

Because actually I would like to get some information from you if I can,

Because although I'm a theorist and I'm speculating about the nature of time and consciousness,

I have this feeling you probably know some of the answers,

Or at least some of the answers.

So,

I would like to ask how some of my ideas relate to your insights.

And it's to do with the nature of time and indeed the nature of space.

In my talk on Thursday,

I was trying to explain that if you want to expand physics to accommodate consciousness,

By which I mean mind and spirit,

Because consciousness is everywhere in matter,

Mind and spirit,

That you have to expand your concept of space and your concept of time.

Now,

I already spoke on Thursday about in what sense I felt you had to expand your concept of space.

But just to recap,

Just in case there were some people not there,

My argument was that most mental and many spiritual experiences do require a space.

And I was referring to dream space,

Out-of-body space,

The space of a near-death experience,

The space of ghosts,

The space even of some mystical experiences,

Not all mystical experiences because some go beyond space and time.

And what I argued was that you need some higher-dimensional space because it's not just physical space,

It goes beyond physical space.

And then what I said was this higher-dimensional space,

It corresponds to a sort of higher-dimensional reality which reconciles all our experiences of the world,

Not just of the physical world but of all the worlds.

And so that was my claim.

The other point I made was that even physics itself claims that there are higher dimensions because Newton had a three-dimensional space,

Einstein said there was four-dimensional space,

Space and time being merged which of course agrees with what you were saying earlier that space and time are basically the same.

And then I explained how they introduced the fifth dimension to explain electromagnetism and then how they introduced six more dimensions in order to,

In superstring theory,

In order to describe all the physical interactions.

So then you had a ten-dimensional world.

And then finally I said with M-theory we had the idea there was another dimension so you have an eleven-dimensional space.

And Sadhguru made the fascinating remark which was new to me that actually eleven dimensions is precisely what arises in some of the traditions.

Maybe we can come back to that.

But then the real,

The key point I wanted to make was that in one particular version of M-theory the physical world is a slice of a higher-dimensional space.

The slice is called the brain,

B-R-A-N-E,

And the higher-dimensional space is,

It's a five-dimensional space,

It's called the bulk.

And so physics gives you a higher-dimensional space of which material world is a slice.

Your experience,

Your mental and spiritual experience gives you a higher-dimensional space.

So the main point I made on Thursday is why can't we identify these two spaces?

This is not a view that many of my physics colleagues will share because they don't want to be associated with mysticism.

But that's my personal view.

I don't want you to give the impression that I am,

This is the mainstream physics view because I'll get into trouble with my physics colleagues if you get that impression.

But it's,

It's my view anyway.

But that was talking about space.

But what I didn't talk about,

Because our kind chairman realized that… I didn't talk about time.

So can I,

Can I speak for about five minutes about time and then I'm going to ask Sadhguru if he could… That's a lot of time,

Sir.

You see,

What is fascinating about consciousness is that it involves the passage of time.

When you say I am conscious,

One can argue about what you mean by conscious.

There's a distinction between the contents of consciousness,

Which is what I'm normally referring to when I talk about a space of consciousness,

But the experience of consciousness itself… This must change.

You should not say space like this.

Ah,

I should go like this.

Thank you,

Yeah.

Okay,

So conscious space like that.

Yeah.

And,

And hopefully time like this,

Which means the chairman can't stop me if I… Yeah.

Anyway,

The point is this.

What you've got to realize,

In Einstein with his theory of special relativity,

He married up space and time.

He realized that the world is four-dimensional with the fourth dimension being time.

And so you as a human being,

You,

Your body is like a world line in this.

You imagine space and time in two dimensions.

I hope I can use my hands,

But you imagine space and time in two dimensions to make it simpler.

You are like a line,

Your world line in this four-dimensional space,

Which is represented as two-dimensional space.

But in Einstein's picture,

It's called the block universe,

Past,

Present and future coexist.

There is no time.

But in your conscious experience,

You think of yourself as moving through time.

So if you imagine your world line is a brain,

You sort of think of your consciousness as like a little bead,

Which is traveling along that wire.

That's your experience.

So right now it's ten to five,

But it will be five o'clock in ten minutes and it was quarter to five,

Five minutes ago.

But the point is that that does not happen in relativity theory.

In relativity theory,

There is no passage of time.

And this is well understood.

And this is why many physicists and philosophers say it is an illusion.

The passage of time is an illusion.

And yet we all experience it.

Now,

What I'm saying is that mind,

The experience of consciousness,

Is not actually part of our current picture of physics.

It's not part of relativity.

And nor is passage of time really in quantum theory.

Time has a different status in quantum theory.

So how do you explain this?

Well,

The way various physicists,

Well,

Various philosophers have explained it,

Including myself,

Is you have to say there is an extra dimension,

Which is an extra dimension of time,

Which corresponds,

If you like,

To mental time as opposed to physical time.

So this is why I say current physics,

Meaning relativity theory and quantum theory,

Cannot explain the experience of consciousness.

But the final theory of physics,

Which is going to reconcile relativity and quantum theory,

That has to explain consciousness.

And it has to include this extra dimension.

Because what I'm saying is mental time is an extra dimension.

Is that okay?

Everyone's convinced?

Good.

Now,

But there's another feature of consciousness which is really crucial.

And this is to do with what I call the specious present.

This is the minimum time scale of experience.

You see,

When we're normal human beings,

There's a minimum time we can experience,

Which is something like a tenth of a second.

You imagine my finger is a light.

If I move this light around in a circle,

You will see that light going round.

But if it goes round too fast,

If it goes round more than ten times a second,

You won't see it as motion.

You'll see a continuous light.

So there is no time on a time scale less than a tenth of a second,

Which is basically the specious present.

On the other hand,

If this little light moves around too slowly,

You won't see it moving either.

And that's to do with the time scale of memory.

So our experience of time only extends over a really short range of times,

From something like a tenth of a second to maybe a thousand seconds.

Okay?

That's what we mean by human consciousness.

So this concept of the specious present is a very old concept.

It actually goes back to William James.

It goes back more than a hundred years.

But even many philosophers don't talk about it.

So consciousness comes with a specious present.

And our specious present is essentially roughly,

Say,

A tenth of a second.

Now,

We as humans are very arrogant.

We assume that that is the only level of consciousness in the universe.

Well,

At least.

.

.

Not humans.

Physicists.

Well,

Yes.

Yes,

Yes.

Okay.

Absolutely.

Well,

I suppose.

.

.

Exactly.

When I say.

.

.

When I say humans arrogantly,

I don't mean all humans.

I mean a certain.

.

.

Especially most of my scientific colleagues will assume that we are the most important form of consciousness.

Obviously not.

.

.

Probably not most of you.

But the question is,

Therefore,

This specious present.

.

.

I said it's a tenth of a second,

But actually it can change.

And we all know it can change in certain circumstances.

I expect you had the experience.

.

.

You're in a crisis situation.

Say you're falling off a mountain.

I don't know if anyone's ever fallen off a mountain,

But.

.

.

You know,

Time seems to slow down.

Or maybe you're in a car accident.

And the outside world,

Everything seems to be in slow motion.

That's because your specious present has sort of shrunk.

And so that happens.

You can have another experience,

For example,

Where your specious present expands.

I know of a case of someone who was very ill,

Was lying in bed,

And saw this flashing light at the window.

And couldn't work out what it was,

But it turned out this flashing light was the rising and the setting of the sun.

But their specious present had expanded so that it seemed to be a flashing light.

It's a question of the relationship between your mental time and physical time.

Now,

Of course,

Most neuroscientists would probably think that can be explained because there must be some sort of clock in time inside the brain.

So,

For example.

.

.

Sadhguru,

One second.

Yes.

Because there's a lot of things.

If each one of those things,

If we unpack together.

.

.

Absolutely,

Yes,

Yes.

It will be good because you're saying so many things,

We will.

.

.

By the time we come back.

.

.

No,

I.

.

.

But so are you,

So are you.

So,

It's a.

.

.

It's a.

.

.

No.

No.

Yes.

The important thing is,

I think Einstein is committing incest.

Yeah.

When he says,

We will marry time and space.

I don't know whether he said it or not,

You said.

Because what we are seeing as space in my experience is a consequence of time.

Time has given birth to space and our sense of time is essentially because of cyclical moments,

Otherwise we don't know time.

Right now,

People are sitting here,

Well,

If this goes for an hour-and-a-half,

Two,

They're okay.

It doesn't matter what great truths you talk,

If it becomes four hours,

They will slowly slip out.

Because,

Not the clock,

Their bladder keeps time,

Their backside keeps time,

Their lower back keeps time.

Hello?

Suppose they didn't have a body,

We took away their bodies,

Then if we sat here for two million years,

They have no problem.

We,

As physical beings,

Are a consequence of time,

Which is essentially cyclical moments of physical material.

We are a consequence of that.

If we rise above our physicality,

There is no sense of time in us.

This is what,

Unfortunately,

The Western observers are saying is trance.

Somebody has risen above his physical state.

Now,

He sits here,

You think he's sitting here whatever number of days,

But he,

In his experience,

He's sitting for a few moments.

It's a living experience for me in my life.

And there are any number of people who've gone into deeper processes where if you make them sit in a certain state,

They don't know any sense of time,

Time just like that.

So,

How much impact… When I said,

You can either get crushed by time or you can be trapped by time or you can be liberated by riding the time,

How deeply you're identified with your physicality,

That's how much power time has over you.

If you're not so physically identified,

Now you're a scientist,

You're… lot happening up there.

Now you go into a laboratory or wherever you go,

You don't know when to eat.

There are some people,

Their stomach tells them all the time when to eat,

When to go to the bathroom,

When they should go again.

In the office,

You will see many of them in eight hours of work are going to the bathroom four to five times and going to eat and drink another five times because completely ruled by the body.

If suddenly you became more interested in something else,

You don't know when to eat,

When to pee,

When not to do because bodily influence on you,

The power of the body is gone.

Once the power of the body is gone on you,

The power of time has gone on you.

So,

If you're completely free from that,

You're beyond time process.

But how do we come to this?

We look at human body as a construct like this.

There is a physical body which is an accumulation of the food that we have eaten.

This is the hardware that we built.

There is a software which you're calling as a mental space,

Is it?

I'm sorry,

Mental space.

It's a mental body,

We call that also as body.

We're calling everything body,

All the five aspects we call it as body because body means you can observe,

You can learn.

Space is a vague thing.

So,

There is a mental body.

There is memory and information and intelligence right across.

So,

The mental body,

This is the software.

Hardware,

Software together can do nothing unless it's plugged into power.

So,

The third layer,

We call this as the pranamaya kosha or the energy body.

So,

It's plugged in and these things are functioning.

Most human beings live their life between physical,

Mental bodies.

Very rarely there may be little bit of experiencing the pranic body or the energy body.

The next dimension of the body is called vijnanamaya kosha.

Vijnana literally means is… Jnana means to know.

Jnan means to know.

Vijnana means it is a combination of two words – vishesh jnana.

That means an extraordinary knowledge.

Extraordinary knowledge means anything that we don't perceive through our sense perception but we perceived it.

Then we call this vishesh jnana or vijnana.

Today in India,

The word science has been described as vijnana.

Right now in school subjects,

It's called vijnana because we are saying this is extraordinary knowledge.

Because you… What your eyes could not see,

Your telescope saw.

So,

We are saying you are having extraordinary knowledge because beyond the sense perception,

You extended it somehow.

It doesn't matter how.

How you extended it,

Somehow using a physical mechanism or using your own power of extending your eyes,

Somehow or the other you saw something that your eyes cannot see.

So,

We call this vijnana.

So,

General science is called vijnana in India now.

So,

This vijnanamaya kosha,

For lack of English words,

Some people describe it as the etheric body.

What this means is,

It's a transitional body.

Between physicality and non-physicality,

There's a transition.

So now,

From what you are saying,

Because I'm not much of a scientist by any standards,

So what I perceive is,

Science is little bit putting its tentacles or its… what do you call this,

The cockroach to things?

Hmm?

Antenna.

You're putting your antenna into vijnanamaya kosha,

But not able to enter.

The fifth layer of the body,

We call it as bliss body,

Not because there's a bubble of bliss inside,

Simply because we do not know what is its nature.

Because it's not physical at all,

We cannot define by any word or describe it by any description.

So,

We say bliss body because this is child's language.

It is like your child sees a speaker,

Let's say,

A speaker like this and you say,

Boom,

Boom.

So,

In that language we are talking,

When we touch it,

Our experience becomes so bliss… blissful.

So,

We are saying this is bliss body.

We are not saying that is the nature of that.

We are saying when we touch it,

We eat something and we say it's sweet.

Because sweet is our experience,

That is not the nature of what it is.

This is our experience,

So we call it bliss body.

Right now,

Please I'm not trying to be countering something,

I'm just trying to define my understanding of this.

From what you are saying,

I see that you are nibbling at Vijnanamaya Kosha.

But to cross it,

If you don't come out of the… The other day I called it a dungeon,

Today I will remain into foundation.

The foundations of logic you must cross because logic can function only with two,

This and that.

Without that you cannot.

Now,

These two things have gone till here,

It needs to become like this.

If somebody married time and space,

That needs to happen within us.

You can… This marriage of time and space or merger of time and space can only happen if you transcend your physical nature,

Otherwise it will not go there.

I entirely accept that one reaches a point beyond logic,

Beyond mathematics,

But nevertheless I would argue that you can extend the logic and the mathematics beyond the physical domain because I was making a distinction between physical time and another level of time which is not physical but nevertheless subject to logic and subject to mathematics.

So I think what I'm saying is that there's an intermediate regime between the material domain which most physicists think about and that domain which goes beyond logic and mathematics altogether.

So I think what I'm talking about,

What I'm nibbling at,

If you like,

Is that intermediate domain.

So I don't think that's in contradiction with what you're saying,

But… I mean,

Just to… I was talking before about how your experience of the specious present can change,

But that was all in the circumstances where the specious present was presumably related to what was going on in the physical body.

But the point I wanted to make was that you may have a psychic or a mystical experience where your experience of time is very different indeed.

So,

For example,

You might have a near-death experience in which your whole life is seen in an instant,

Rather than just as a moment.

So your hundred years is just seen in one moment because in some sense your specious presence in that state of mind has expanded to be a whole life.

And my understanding is,

From the literature,

Not from experience,

Is that in various mystical states it's like you can be expanding,

Changing your specious present,

Like a dial on a radio,

So that you experience the world at a different level of consciousness,

And that different level of consciousness corresponding to a different specious present.

And so,

I mean,

The point I was going to make was that it's very arrogant to assume that the only level of consciousness in the universe is this human being.

I don't myself see why there shouldn't be a hierarchy of level of consciousness on timescales much larger and much smaller than the human being.

I don't see why,

For example,

Why there shouldn't be a planetary level of consciousness with a much longer specious present,

Maybe a day.

Why there shouldn't be a solar level of consciousness,

Which might be up a hundred years.

Why there couldn't be a galactic level of consciousness and why there couldn't be a cosmic level of consciousness.

So,

I would say within this perspective,

This is why I'm putting the emphasis on specious present,

I don't see why there cannot be a hierarchy of levels of consciousness associated with different,

If you like,

Forms of embodiment,

But also… Sadhguru – If I can ask a question?

Yes,

Yes.

Because you are using the term,

What is this,

Mind… time related to the mind,

Right?

Yes.

I'm now talking about time related to mind rather than to physics.

I'm saying the time,

We experience time only because of our relationship with our body,

Not with our mind.

In our mind,

We can make one hour into ten hours,

Ten hours into one hour,

We can.

Because on a certain given day,

If you're very joyful,

The day passes like ten minutes.

If you are depressed,

The day passes like a eon.

So,

This is a mental thing.

Mind… How we see mind is,

There is something called as sat-chit-ananda,

You have heard that,

Right?

Have you?

Sat-chit-ananda.

No,

I don't know the terminology.

I think I don't recall sat.

Sat means truth or reality.

Chit means… We are referring to chit as mind.

Ananda means blissfulness.

So,

Sat is reality which… which is there.

But we can only look at the reality through the lie of our mind.

Sat is half there,

Half not there.

It's a half a reality.

It's… part of it is true,

Part of it is not true.

Chit is a complete lie.

You can make anything out of it.

You can look at this and see a dinosaur there,

Genuinely.

People do that.

You can see a dinosaur or an elephant standing there right now,

Though it is not there.

You can see an elephant standing there,

Though it is not there.

You can look at this person and think,

Oh,

She is evil.

You can look at that person and think,

Oh,

She is beautiful.

You can look at that person and think something else.

This is all lies made up in our mind.

We can make up whatever we want.

This is the beautiful thing about our mind.

We can even make an absolute lie into reality,

A total lie,

Something that never existed,

We can make it into a reality of our own.

This is a phenomena that we have a kaleidoscope,

We can make whatever,

With little information we can make so many things out of it.

But that's not an instrument to explore.

Kaleidoscope you can enjoy,

But you cannot make that into an instrument of exploration.

Body is more reliable.

Body never lies to you.

Hello?

But there are different levels of body,

I mean… Yes.

Physical body,

Mental body,

I mean… Yes,

I am right now saying the physical body never lies.

It's telling you the truth,

Isn't it?

You… You want us to stop?

Mental body,

Physical body I'm asking.

So I'm saying when you get hungry,

You get hungry.

But mind can tell you,

No,

You're not hungry.

Mind can tell you when you don't need food,

Mind can tell you,

You need to eat.

But body tells you truth about everything.

When it's cold,

It's cold,

When it's hot,

It's hot,

Everything is the way it is.

But mind can make it whichever way you want.

What is pleasant for one person is unpleasant for somebody,

What is unpleasant is pleasant because mind makes up all these things.

This is… The mind as we see it right now,

We are just essentially talking about one aspect which is the intellect,

Which is what today in modern societies we have strived to develop because it produces results for us.

In daily life it improves our life in so many ways.

What does improvement in life mean?

Essentially it means we get to handle our survival process more and more efficiently.

That's all improvement is.

This is why though compared to how… Let's say how our grandparents lived and how we are living today,

Probably every one of us have ten to twenty times more than what they had.

We are not any more joyful or any more liberated than them,

Though people claim.

It is not.

When you look at the people on the street,

Their faces,

They are driving their dream cars.

When you look at their faces,

You know they are no better.

People who walked or bicycled were also like that in the past.

I am not saying we are more miserable but we cannot claim because of these comforts we have become more joyful.

We have become more comfortable,

More convenient life,

More possibilities in the physical world,

All that accepted.

But this doesn't change the experience because it's the mind which can create whatever you want.

Some people who manage their mind well,

They see a good picture on their kaleidoscope.

Some people who don't know how to manage that,

They see a bad picture all the time.

But that's got nothing to do with the reality.

So when we are using an instrument like this to explore the fundamental reality of our existence,

It will give us a bad picture.

Telescope is a good thing.

Kaleidoscope,

No.

So that's… Can I ask you a question?

Because you are talking about,

You see the dinosaur or the elephant.

I didn't,

I am just… Yeah,

It was your example but… But would you disregard our theories of… from physics,

Our theories of the world as being like the dinosaur or the elephant?

No,

No,

No.

I am not saying that.

See,

The theories of the world,

I am not saying they are all wrong.

That's why I said they are pointing in the right direction.

But even if you point in the right direction,

Let's say right now our vision,

Like some other… like a fly or a grasshopper or a mosquito is only ten feet.

Let's say both of us can see only ten feet.

We can think,

Okay,

If these two rows of people are sitting there,

Maybe twenty rows are there,

Maybe there are more people and we start looking.

But still our eyesight improves.

We are not going to see them.

Right?

Let's… So it's extremely important now,

I… In my perception,

Science has never pointed in the right direction.

In the last twenty-five,

Thirty years,

They are beginning to point in the right direction.

When they are pointing in the right direction,

Developing instruments to see further is very vital now for emancipation of humanity from being stuck in their own cycles.

But you see,

When you are talking about eyes,

There is the… there are the physical eyes.

But what interests me is that,

For example,

If one has an out-of-the-body experience,

One floats around,

One sees things,

But one's not… one's… one's not actually seeing anything through one's physical eyes.

So it's as though there… there's a different level of body… embodiment,

A different level of eye,

A different sort of light with which one is exploring the world.

So,

Are you… are you making this remark just in the context of physical… No.

In every context I'm saying.

Suppose,

Suppose it's true that somebody slipped out of their body and floated around.

I can show you some examples which are stark,

Unbelievably stark,

Which will be shocking for most people.

Leaving that,

Let's say somebody here slipped out… She's a good candidate.

She slipped out of her body and went around.

But to see physical light,

You need these eyes.

You can't… I can't see physical light with my hands.

You need these two eyes to see physical light because this whole problem of light,

This is… this has come because what is metaphorical is being taken literally by a whole lot of people.

I think it's Patanjali who made the mistake,

Maybe even before him somebody must have,

Where he said,

If you bring yourself,

Distance yourself from your psychological and physiological process,

A new light will arise within you.

When he says light,

He's not talking about this physical light which is traveling at 186,

000 miles per second.

He's talking about a new clarity has come.

You see things totally differently because things are crystal clear to you.

But to see this light,

You need these two.

Without these two,

You don't see this light.

Right.

But… But this lady,

She is… Not this one,

That one,

That one.

Oh,

Sorry,

I got the wrong lady.

But is it true to say she is using a different sort of eyes and a different sort of light to see the world?

We cannot call it eyes because when somebody is beyond the body,

They are not seeing a damn thing.

But does not mean there is no experience.

Experience is coming because of inclinations,

Inherent inclinations,

Which we call as karmic vasanas.

That means because you have a certain volume of information,

Even in your subtlest form,

You have a certain volume of information.

Information,

If there is no intent,

It creates an inclination.

Suppose you sit here,

You have no intent as to what you should do right now.

Now you go by your inclinations.

Some people will pluck the flower like this,

Some people will drink something,

Some people will smoke something,

Some people will simply sit here and dream something.

This is an inclination.

If you don't have an intent,

Naturally your memory creates an inclination.

We call this inclination as vasana.

Vasana means… literally means smell.

Why we're calling it vasana is because in the animal world,

It is the smell which plays a big role.

Even in human life,

Smell plays a massive role,

But people are not noticing it simply because of their cerebral activity.

A whole lot of research has gone into it now,

Various types of research.

People are saying for… These scientists saying,

Okay?

They are saying you might have chosen a husband or a wife or a partner in your life because of an unconscious sense of smell you have about that person.

Smelly people,

I'm sorry.

I'm interested in the phenomena of levitation,

For example.

And there's the famous case of St.

Teresa of Avila who would levitate.

Now,

That in itself would not be a mystical experience because a psychical researcher would say,

Oh,

She's levitating,

We must measure how high she goes and how far she moves.

And so I accept that is not a mystical phenomenon itself.

But St.

Teresa herself was having a mystical experience.

So for her,

She was in ecstatic state.

So there was a link between mystical and psychic.

Why ecstatic mystical?

Why is being ecstatic mystical?

Well,

I have no experience of mystical experience myself.

So let me come to that.

See,

Right now,

Recently some journalist is asking me,

Sadhguru,

If there's one achievement in your life,

What is it?

I said,

Tears.

He said,

What do you mean by tears?

I said,

Every day,

Millions of people,

If they close their eyes,

Tears of ecstasy at washing their cheeks.

This is the only achievement I have,

Rest is all circus.

Rest is circus only in the world.

You have to do circus to get people attracted to that process.

So being ecstatic happens if you stop creating unpleasantness within you.

When I say unpleasantness,

You sit here and think,

Oh,

What is she doing?

She's writing now,

What's she doing?

Will she get it right?

I don't think she'll get it right.

This is a genuine opinion.

Does she understand what I'm talking?

Is he okay?

Is that this,

This,

This?

I'm saying these thousand things are there.

It's not even conscious,

These things are multiplying into millions as you grow up.

Now,

All this muck,

Which you think is your thought process and your emotions and your opinions,

Especially you're in a university,

Full of opinions,

Okay?

With all these opinions,

You can't see nothing clearly.

To just keep down all the opinions that you have,

It takes a lot of work.

People are around me for twenty,

Thirty years,

Same people.

I don't have a single opinion about them.

Only when it comes to work,

I have to do something with them.

Then I have an opinion whether they can do this or not do this.

But when I just look at them,

I just look at them as they are now.

I don't care how they were ten years ago.

I don't care how they were yesterday.

When I look at them now,

I see them as they are,

Because this is very important for what I do.

Otherwise,

Oh,

This one is possible,

This is a enlightenment candidate,

This is no good,

That is a good one,

This has good genetics,

That has bad genetics,

This is all rubbish.

It's got nothing to do.

All these things have got something to do with their bodies and minds.

I have no business with their body or their mind for that matter.

So they may think loving their guru is a great thing.

I think nothing about it.

Because love is a simple emotion.

Even a dog can do it very well,

Better than you.

Hello?

We are making a big deal out of it and exporting it to heaven and saying,

God is love.

This is because people have grown up bereft of love.

I'll tell you a simple story.

Can I tell you a little situation?

I was to speak in Tel Aviv,

Unfortunately there is a situation there,

A few years ago,

And I'm flying out of Atlanta.

I'm to land there around 11.

30 in the morning and speak at 6.

30 in the evening.

But some delays in the flights and I end up landing there at six o'clock in the evening.

In these forty years,

I have not been late to a single event.

So I don't want to,

You know,

It's a commitment that I have that I don't go late.

So I quickly change in the airport and rushing to the event.

And I'm famished because I'm flying an American airline,

There's nothing edible.

There's nothing edible on that plane.

No,

Peanuts.

No,

Not even that,

They have… they throw some dog parts at you.

Whatever,

Nothing edible for me.

So,

These… whatever these groundnuts,

They give you only in the domestic.

In the international,

It's only dog part in some bread and something,

Something.

It's just not for me.

So I'm super hungry.

But you know,

I have to be there on time,

I rush.

And then I find to my amazement,

It never happens to me,

I'm speaking at a fine restaurant.

This is coherence.

Then I walk in and people are already there,

They're greeting me.

One man comes up and says,

Shalom.

I ask him,

What does it mean?

He says,

This is the highest way of greeting.

I said,

It's all right,

That's your opinion,

But what does it mean?

He says,

No,

No,

No,

This is the highest way of greeting.

I said,

All right,

What does the word mean?

Then he says,

It means peace.

I said,

Why is peace the highest way of greeting,

Unless you're born in Middle East?

In South India,

Somebody comes up to me in the morning and says,

Peace.

I say,

What's wrong with you?

So I'm saying,

Anything that you deprive yourself of,

Slowly rises to heaven.

You've not seen peace in your life,

Peace becomes God.

You've not seen love in your life,

Love becomes God.

You've not seen blissfulness in your life,

Bliss becomes God.

No,

These are all simple human emotions.

So if… St.

Teresa,

If she walked around blissfully,

I'm glad for her.

Today,

I can show you,

If not millions,

At least hundreds and thousands of people who are blissed out,

At least for parts of the day.

I'm blissed out all the time.

Yeah,

But… So,

For me,

To simply close my eyes and come to tears is just two moments.

I'll be there.

There are many,

Many people like that here and everywhere.

So,

It's wonderful if that woman walked like that.

It's a fantastic thing because that's how a human being should be.

You shouldn't make a saint out of her.

She is a wonderful human being and every human being should be that way.

They must walk the streets like this.

When they see the flowers in the tree,

They must… tears must come.

When they see the clouds,

Tears must come.

When they see a child,

Tears must come.

When they close their eyes,

Tears must come.

Tears of love and ecstasy,

Not tears of misery and pain.

So,

Right now,

It becomes such a rarity in a given society.

Now you suddenly think she's got God going in her.

No,

She doesn't need God.

Human beings are capable of experiencing these things.

I'm saying these are all experiences that human beings have.

Almost every human being at some point in a moment of love or joy or something,

Tears have come to them.

It's just that it's not common.

If she made it a part of her life,

Fantastic.

But in eastern societies,

There are any number of saints like that who always lived like that.

I'm not trying to bring her down.

All I'm saying is,

I'm trying to… Well,

You can't bring her down,

You mean from the levitation or from the… Levitation I am not talking about.

Because that's a question of breathing in hydrogen,

Not oxygen.

I'm saying I don't want to bring her down.

My work is to raise the humanity,

Not bring down somebody from the heaven.

So,

Unfortunately in those societies,

Because everybody else is in such a mess,

If one human being rises,

You think she fell from the top.

No,

She rose,

Wonderful for her.

Well,

They… they did make… yeah.

But… But I'm saying there's nothing mystical about that.

I mean,

That's a question of… We can say that is… that is clearly a spiritual experience,

Let's say.

Oh,

Spiritual is fine.

I mean,

The lay… Because we are trying to make some… draw some distinction between psychic,

Spiritual and mystical.

So,

Her experience,

We can put it clearly in the category of a spiritual experience.

That is fine,

Because that's a question of semantics and… No,

No,

These are not semantics.

These are clear distinctions in experience.

See,

When you look at it from outside intellectually,

It amounts to semantics.

In terms of experience,

What happens in my body is physical,

What happens in my mind is mental,

What happens in my emotions is emotional,

What happens in my spirit is spiritual,

Is distinctly there,

Nobody can question that.

Because somebody is questioning it from outside,

Because they can't see it.

If somebody is shedding tears out of love,

We can sit here and think,

Oh,

Maybe some pain.

This is our conclusion.

But they may be blissed out with love and tears may be coming out,

Possible.

So,

Semantic issue comes because we are outside observers to human subjectivity.

That'll never work.

Whether she was having a spiritual or a mystical experience,

You know,

I bow to your knowledge because I… No,

I am not saying she did not have a mystical experience,

Because people observed that she is in tears of ecstasy.

That is a spiritual experience.

She might have had mystical experiences,

Which she cannot show to people.

How will she show?

But the question I was going to ask was,

I was interested in the status of psychic phenomena because why I am interested in psychical phenomena is because I see them as making a link between matter and spirituality,

Between science and spirituality,

Because in psychical… No,

Can I,

Can I do this?

Because this is there,

You know,

In between.

Yes.

They have broke it for some reason.

They didn't want the tail and the head to come together.

Whoever made it.

Anyway,

See,

Psychic phenomena is extension of the mind.

Yes.

We can extend our body if you want.

Right now we can do a simple experiment,

Sir.

Shall we do?

By all means.

Please sit,

Little spine erect.

What we will do is put our hands together like this and we will vigorously rub these two hands together with eyes closed for let's say thirty to… thirty seconds.

All right?

Like this.

Thirty seconds is a long time.

Well,

My specious presence is changing,

Yeah.

Now,

Keeping your eyes closed,

Just separate them by three to four inches.

Something happening between two… your two hands.

Something,

Little bit.

Whatever that is.

Let's not try to define it,

Describe it.

It's an extension of the body.

You can extend the body like this.

Right now,

You have heard of phantom legs and things,

Somebody loses a leg or a hand.

Even though the physical leg is gone,

Still they're still experiencing it because in extended body,

As there is a physical body,

There's an energetic body which can stay intact if the loss of body is very sudden like that.

There are tantrics.

We should not go here.

I'm entering dangerous territory in a university.

Why should I commit suicide like this?

Let me leave the tantrics alone.

So,

There are people who can leave their body here and go and do something and again come back.

It's called parakaya pravesh.

That means you enter something else.

This is extension of the body,

Which is psychic.

Extension of the body and mind to do something is a psychic process.

What you're talking about,

Saint Teresa,

That is a spiritual experience,

What we people are seeing.

Whether she is having a mystical experience or not,

Nobody will know.

She might have,

She might not have.

But she is definitely,

If she is all blissed out,

She is having a spiritual experience.

I'm just trying to define.

But the point I'm making is that from the point of view of extending science,

These phenomena are interesting because that you can study these phenomena using the sort of techniques that a scientist would use.

You know,

You can test for telepathy in a laboratory,

You can test for psychokinesis,

Whether you can affect it.

Because it's all psychic phenomena.

Telepathy,

Telekinesis,

Whatever other things that people are talking about,

This is all psychic phenomena,

Which I am personally not interested in because that will not in any way rise a human being beyond their limitations.

It will only make them little more competent.

It's like if I… I'm using a bad example again.

If I have to kill somebody,

I must go there and do something to them.

But if I have a gun from here,

I can shoot them.

This is psychic phenomena.

From here,

I can do things.

I don't have to go there and do things.

So gun is more efficient than a knife.

In UK,

Still they use knives,

That's why I'm saying.

There are few guns but mainly knives,

Yes.

So I'm saying,

Psychic phenomena is like this – you're extending your psychological and physical forces to do certain things and come back.

But this will only at the most give you a little advantage in the world.

You will not rise anywhere.

I accept that.

But the reason I'm emphasizing that is because in the attempt to expand science,

To accommodate these phenomena,

This is… and it's nothing to do with helping somebody become enlightened.

But nevertheless,

I'm saying it's helpful,

It's of interest to me because that's how I can expand science to accommodate these phenomena.

It's… if you like,

It's part of the way of going towards it,

Unifying science and spirituality.

So even though you say it's not of interest,

I'm saying it's… Sadhguru – You don't have to accommodate this.

Let's dismiss all the things that I'm saying.

Right now,

In my opinion,

Science is looking in the right direction.

They have to extend their look.

I'm asking,

Can you build a telescope which will see something which is not physical in nature?

That's what you need to do.

The answer is not with a physical… With mathematics.

I'll come to that.

So,

We… because we are talking about time,

Which I see as the most basic entity from infinite to zero is manifestation of time.

So it's an infinite space because it's a mix of time and space.

It's… It's always been like that.

It's… Time is the fundamental firmament,

Space is happening on top of it.

Now,

Beyond this time,

Which we refer to as a cyclical process because time as we know it,

As we experience it right now,

Exists only because of cyclical movement.

Planet turns a day,

Moon goes around a month,

Planet goes around the sun a year.

This is our experience of time and similar cycles are happening in our own bodies and various phenomenas in the world.

But a time which is not cyclical,

Which is just a stillness,

We call this Mahakala.

That means the greater time.

There is a particular deity enshrined in central India which used to be the center of time for many millennia before the British came to India and they shifted it to green,

Which mean time.

This was the mean time in the world.

Because the maritime travelers from Asia,

Because that's where it started,

This was considered the line of time.

This is where the time started.

So there they established a particular deity which is called Mahakala.

So,

Well,

Let me not go into those things but essentially things were done so that people can experience something beyond the limitations of their body because if you do not cross the limitations of your body,

You will not cross the cycles of time in any way.

Do what you want.

As long as this body is there,

You are within the manifestation of the cycle of time.

So right now,

You're looking the right way.

If you can only build a telescope somehow or the telescope need not necessarily be a physical pipe.

If even this… all these numbers can go there and read something or see something which is non-physical in nature,

Absolutely non-physical in nature,

Then science will see what is there.

Otherwise,

We're looking in the direction but no eyes.

And so the question is how can physics do that?

I mean,

For example,

People are interested… I think we should drop the word physics because I'm talking about crossing the physical.

Well,

I mean,

Even the word… when I talk about expanding physics to accommodate these phenomena,

It is not clear that that is the right word because most physicists will not want to call it physics.

They will say it's philosophy or something.

And so I'm quite happy.

In fact,

I tend to use another word.

I tend to use the word hyperphysics.

This is quite good science,

Systematic way of… Yeah,

But you see within physics itself,

There's the whole question of what is physics.

Among physicists,

It's a big issue now.

What do we regard as physics?

Because some of the ideas I was talking about yesterday like M-theory and these higher dimensions,

We still haven't got any instruments that actually detect these extra dimensions.

So people will say… I mean,

Physicists will say,

Some physicists will say,

This isn't physics,

This is just mathematics or it's even… it's just philosophy.

Now,

What is interesting to me is that what we mean by science has constantly evolved.

So in the old days,

You used to think that science was to do with experiments.

But if you're an astronomer,

You can't do… you can't do experiments with stars and galaxies.

In some sense,

The universe does the experiments for you because you've got billions of stars and billions of galaxies.

So the universe does the experiments.

But you're still… it's crucial you're making observations.

But then that only works because you've got millions of galaxies and millions of stars.

So people would say,

Well,

You've only got one universe.

So therefore,

How can cosmology be a proper part of science?

But now we accept it is part of… it is part of science,

It is part of physics because we understand the theory which explains the universe.

And so now we're talking… On what basis do we come to this conclusion there's only one universe?

Well,

Exactly.

Now that leads into the next… you've foreseen my next point,

Which is that now people talk about the multiverse.

Which is not spiritual or mystical,

It's psychic.

And it's… well,

Yeah,

Well.

Well,

The point is the multiverse in a certain sense is just in the mind because we cannot see the other universes.

And I get into a lot of… I've written a book about the multiverse,

Universe or multiverse.

And one gets into arguments with other physicists.

They say,

This isn't physics because you can't see the other universe.

And a crucial thing about science is it has to be something you can see.

You've got to get evidence.

But there are lots of things in science and in physics in particular you can never see,

But we still accept as physics.

You can never see inside a black hole,

But everyone… most physicists accept that's part of physics.

You can never see a quark,

Which is the subatomic particle which makes up neutrons and protons.

But everybody agrees that this is part of physics.

So in physics now we're used to the idea that there are things which we cannot see and directly get evidence for.

But it's regarded as physics because it's part of this mathematical framework because at least part of the theory can be tested.

Now,

So one of the counterarguments… you mentioned the multiverse.

Even though you can't see these other universes,

You can argue it's still part of physics because they're predicted by theories of physics which can be tested indirectly.

But what I'm saying is that there's a whole controversy going on even within physics about what physics is.

And in some sense our paradigms of physics now are essentially just mental models because the concept of reality when you talk about higher dimensions and quantum theory… I mean quantum theory has got obviously experimental tests but these higher dimensions don't yet have experimental tests.

And so really it is a creation of mind.

If you said psychic,

In a sense it is psychic.

It's a creation of mind because at the moment we don't have the eyes,

If you like,

With which to actually perceive.

Going back to the Saint Thérèse,

Suppose out of her blissfulness she told all the… where was she in which part of… Oh,

Well,

She came from Europe.

I think she forgot what city she was on.

Okay.

Aquila,

Aquila in Italy,

Yeah.

If she told the Europeans,

Make this world your home,

Out of her… if she has tears of blissfulness,

I'm sure she's feeling like that.

And she said,

Make this world your home.

Then the Europeans thought,

Then we should make our home so big,

It should cover the whole world,

Which they tried.

Now that's a disaster.

So physics means studying the phenomena of the physical world.

If it reaches the edge of physicality,

We must leave there and come up with a new science,

Isn't it?

Come up with a new… New science,

Whatever you want to call it,

I'll leave that to you.

Absolutely.

I mean,

That is the point I'm making,

That you're changing your view of what science is to accommodate these things.

And indeed,

You're changing your view of what physics is to accommodate these things.

And that is part of the challenge.

And that is why the more conventional scientific community is reacting against that.

I mean,

Some of them are reacting against things like higher dimensions,

Which are relatively respectable in the sense that famous scientists work on them.

So even more,

They're reacting against this idea that you can extend science to accommodate the multiverse and the psychic experience or whatever.

But I'm just saying that that is part of the process of linking science and spirituality,

Is changing what you mean by the nature of science.

But the nature of science has always changed historically.

And if ever science and spirituality does merge in some sense,

It will mean that scientists must become more spiritual.

No,

I wouldn't say that.

Okay.

What I would say is right now,

This whole fallacy of science and spirituality,

What is it that we call as science?

If something is a systematic approach to know something,

And if you see it also,

It's the same way,

If I see it also,

It's the same way,

And ten other people see it,

It's still the same way.

That means it's not just a purely subjective experience.

Then we say it is science,

Right?

Am I correct?

That's the old version of science.

All right.

We'll go by the old version.

Yeah,

Because both of us are in that state.

So now,

What we call as spirituality is also a system that if I elucidate,

This is the way,

If you do this,

This and this,

This will happen to you.

If it… Out of these hundred-odd people,

Even if fifty people can experience it,

In my opinion,

It is science.

Because I clearly mark out few steps and they take those steps and they come to such an experience.

I should tell you this.

Some time ago,

A very… a man who is super exposed to all kinds of spiritual stuff around the world,

He said he's been with J.

K.

I don't know if you've heard of J.

K.

J.

Krishnamurthy.

Yes.

He was with J.

K.

For a long time till he passed away in Oj… Ojai… Ojai.

And then he was with Rajneesh,

He was with Ma… What's her name?

Anandamayi Ma.

And he was with some European teachers and he was with the U.

G.

Krishnamurthy,

Who was another guy from Bangalore.

All this.

And then he came and stayed in our yoga center for two weeks.

After two weeks,

He said,

Can I meet Sadhguru?

I did not know he was there.

Then I said,

Okay.

Then one afternoon,

I just met him.

He said,

Sadhguru,

Like this I have been all these places.

I said,

So you're a failed candidate everywhere and you come here now.

What do I do with you?

He said,

No,

No,

No,

Sadhguru,

I have to say this.

I have not come here for anything.

He was already like seventy-nine something when I met him.

He said,

No,

I'm not looking for anything.

I'm… each one of them have contributed.

I have read you and I have seen you and all that.

I just wanted to see you,

That's it.

All I want to say is,

I have been to all those places,

Experienced so many things,

Each one of them enhanced my life in some way.

But you are the only one who has a spiritual factory.

I said,

What do you mean?

I said,

Every week I'm just seeing people come,

Ordinary people come there.

When they're leaving after three-and-a-half days,

They're all bursting with joy and screaming and dancing around and going.

One batch after another,

One batch after another,

They're coming and going the same way.

This is a spiritual factory.

Then I thought this is a great idea because a factory means turning things out more efficiently than handmade stuff.

I called our people and I know they won't go with that.

I said,

We should call this Isha Spiritual Factory.

Because the efficiency with which you are functioning,

It is a spiritual factory.

We have a rollout.

Whoever comes this way,

When they come out,

At least reasonably they'll come out that way,

All right?

So,

When we are able to turn out the same thing or bring a whole lot of people to similar or if not same,

Similar experiences repeatedly,

Again and again and again,

Not in a few years,

Not in two-hundred years like science,

For thousands of years we are able to do that.

Why is that not science?

Oh!

You know what I'm saying?

If this is not infinity,

This is supposed to be and.

We should remove and,

Science and science.

But you see,

One of the interesting points was that science is normally assumed to be taking the third-person perspective of the world.

When you talked about how this… No,

This is why I told this example.

This guy was taking a third-person view and he saw this is a spiritual factory.

People are rolling out in the same level of experience.

But the point is,

Experience… When you're talking about a science of mind,

You're talking about experience,

Not experiment.

I think this… you're saying the same thing that it's… No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

See,

I mean,

Don't translate an experience just to the mind.

Today,

Bala is trying to study that experience chemically,

All right?

The blood chemistry and whatever other things.

I don't want to get into that because I don't care how long is your telemeter.

I… But all those things matter to today's science,

It's fine.

Now they are saying the endocannabinoids are up by whatever percentage.

It is much more than what happens in sexual orgasm,

Just sitting here.

Why is this not science?

It's measurable.

I'm agreeing.

I'm saying that you should have a science of experience.

So I think I'm agreeing with you in that respect.

No,

Experience is not scientific.

Experience is very subjective,

Human.

But you can measure it not at the level of experience,

At the level of what's happening in the body,

You're able to measure it.

What's happening in your chemistry,

You can measure it because all human experience has a chemical basis to it.

But that's reducing everything to materialistic science.

Ah,

No,

No.

See,

Right now,

Only because both of us have a body here,

We are able to house a mind on this.

Hello?

Correct?

We are housing a mind on this.

Because we have a mind on this,

We are housing ideas on it.

Because we have a mind like this,

We are housing mathematics on it.

You can't house all this stuff if you didn't have a body.

So there's nothing wrong with the body.

Body is the foundation.

Without this,

What can we do?

I can ask you a very specific question,

Sadhguru.

I'm fascinated in the question of whether consciousness,

Because consciousness was the theme of this wonderful meeting,

I'm interested in the question of whether consciousness is actually generated by the brain,

Or whether consciousness is actually merely filtered through the brain.

In other words,

Whether consciousness is a little sea,

Is just a manifestation of consciousness with a big sea.

And I'm interested to know where you stand on that,

Because you're obviously emphasizing the fact that our experience of the world is related to what happens in the body.

But that doesn't prove that the consciousness is generated by the body.

It merely says the consciousness is housed in the body.

So where do you stand on that?

Let me put this like this.

We were talking about Kala.

We're talking about time and space as Kala.

We're talking about Maha Kala,

Which is time but not cyclical in nature.

Let's say that is consciousness.

That is a stillness,

Which is all-pervading and which is powerful.

Today,

Maybe they're calling it dark energy,

Whatever it is.

I don't know how they see that.

I don't know if there's any scientific way of sensing dark energy.

I have no idea about that,

So let me not comment.

But calling it dark,

We agree,

Because we call this also dark,

Because we're calling it Kala.

Kala means also darkness,

Because space is dark.

Light is just a small happening.

When something burns,

It emanates light.

And you can't see light,

You can only see its reflection.

See,

Right now,

There is light passing here,

You can't see it.

Only if it's… my hand stops it,

Then you can see it.

Otherwise,

You can't see it.

So we are not… in exploration,

We are not concerned about light.

That's why first thing we do is close our eyes,

Because light is a huge deception.

Light is giving you a wrong perspective of everything.

So the moment you depend on light,

You become physical.

You become only physical with the opaque stuff.

I'm saying you can see the hand,

You can't even see the air that you breathe,

Because you can't see anything vital here.

If you depend on light… So first thing is to close our eyes,

Because the senses are deceiving you.

When we said Maya,

We did not say… Because today philosophers are going about saying,

Nothing exists,

It is only there because you are looking at it.

Recently some boy,

Young boy asked me a question.

I think that video is out somewhere today.

This boy is asking,

Sadhguru,

Is universe there before me or is it just my projection?

I said,

You're a young man.

Before you came,

I was here and the universe was there.

All right?

Don't imagine such things.

You came and projected the universe for me,

All right?

I'm saying this is simplistic understanding of whatever profound sciences somebody has experienced.

It's all because of those three scientists got the Nobel Prize.

Everybody thinks that now they know universe does not exist.

If universe does not exist,

What the hell are you doing here?

It is just that it doesn't exist the way you see it.

This is Maya.

Maya means illusion.

Illusion means that not necessarily that it does not exist.

It is not the way you think it is.

It's not the way you are perceiving it for the sake of your survival.

It is a completely different phenomenon.

But you see it this way because this is how you can survive.

Otherwise,

You cannot survive,

Having said that.

So,

Let us assume this non-cyclical time,

Which is the basis of space,

Is consciousness.

Well,

When we're children,

All of us would have blown a soap bubble.

Were you doing or you were looking through a telescope,

Sir?

Well,

It depends on the age,

But I mean,

I was… I was blowing soap bubbles up till… Yeah,

Soap bubbles.

Fifteen.

Suppose you blew… You blew this big bubble.

I blew that big bubble.

Now I say,

See,

That's my bubble.

The big bubble is my bubble.

This is your bubble.

This is my bubble.

It went poop.

Then I don't say this is my air,

This is your air.

It's the same air both of us captured.

You captured this much,

I captured that much.

So,

Right now,

The whole yogic system is focused on how much can you capture.

If you capture more of that,

That you're calling as consciousness,

Which is a memoryless,

Intentless intelligence,

With which if you give it a little memory,

It finds expression as many,

Many forms.

So,

You and me are one type of forms,

That which found expression because we gathered memory.

This memory we call as karma.

As long as your karma is there,

You can blow a bubble,

Because you got soap.

Even though there is air,

You can't blow a bubble.

You need soap.

So,

Soap is this karmic information.

Without information,

You can't blow the bubble.

Now,

If you have… if your soap is very thick,

You can't blow a big bubble.

It'll be small but heavy.

It doesn't fly,

It just goes down and busts on the… You know,

You've seen both.

You blow a lot of soap,

It just gets heavy,

Goes and lands there.

You blow it really nicely,

Light and slowly,

It becomes this big.

Now,

It floats away because its wall is so thin.

So,

If you become like this,

This whatever,

This sister… what is this,

Teresa?

St.

Teresa,

I'm so sorry.

St.

Teresa blew a bubble,

Which is floating away.

Others see and think,

Oh,

She descended from the heaven.

No,

She's floating because she's blown a big bubble of herself.

Now,

The bigger the bubble,

The easier to burst it.

And that is called nirvana,

Mukti,

Moksha because at some point we want to burst it.

Why would I want to burst my own life bubble?

That is because you read the memory that is written in this and you saw it through and through.

Because you just have amnesia of… even you don't even remember how you were in your mother's womb,

Do you?

No,

You don't remember.

You only remember a few things here and there and you pick up a few pleasant things and say,

My life is fantastic.

If you actually look at it,

Whole of your life is generally grind.

Like he said,

You has to go shopping,

You has to cook,

You has to wash.

It's a grind,

All right?

Here and there,

Moments of joy,

Excitement,

This and that happened.

You are just trying to remember that and paint a beautiful picture of your life.

It's wonderful.

Psychologically,

It's a good thing to do.

But it's not a way to explore the reality of one's existence.

See,

You wanting to live a good life is one thing,

You want to know the basis of the life itself is another thing.

This aspiration may not be there in everybody and it's perfectly fine.

Somebody just wants to live a good life,

All they want is pleasant chemistry.

We can teach them a simple way how you… to make your chemistry pleasant.

Most people would be satisfied with that because generally that's all.

They go to temples,

Mosques,

Churches,

Wherever.

What is their prayer?

What is the prayer on the planet?

Dear God,

Give me this,

Give me that,

Save me,

Protect me,

Make me healthy.

Give me little more than my neighbor.

Yes,

What else?

This is all the prayer on the planet is.

So otherwise,

No,

No,

No,

Not like that,

I go there to thank.

Thank what?

For what you got last time,

So that he doesn't forget you next Christmas.

This happened.

Let me tell you a little joke,

It's getting serious.

Two boys,

Brothers,

Went to grandmother's place for Christmas.

So they are required to pray before they go to bed.

The elder boy sat down,

Kneeled down rather and started praying.

He wanted a puppy for the Christmas.

So he's praying,

Dear Lord,

Let me have a puppy and what breed and everything.

The younger boy who is wiser,

Screamed loudly,

Dear Lord,

I need a bicycle,

Dear Lord,

I need a bicycle.

So this older boy says,

What nonsense,

Why are you screaming,

God can hear.

He said,

I don't care whether God hears or not,

I want grandma to hear.

Can I ask you another question,

Which is,

Doesn't follow up.

If it is not asking too much,

If I give you a very simple,

Generally in science,

You call it a theory.

Yeah,

I call it my experience.

If I give you a simple line,

Can you build mathematics for it?

Because that could be the telescope.

Well,

My question was going to be this.

We started off talking about the cycles of the universe.

And there was something which intrigued me.

In one of your films or one of the interviews,

I've heard you talking about the fact that there were a certain number of cycles.

84.

84,

Exactly.

And so I was intrigued about this.

Not 42,

Which is the answer to everything in Western,

But 84,

Which is twice,

84 is twice 42.

But I'm fascinated,

Where does the figure 84 come from and why 84?

Well,

You already heard that video.

So I will leave that part.

No,

But they didn't.

And I like it.

See,

There is a continuous talk about Big Bang.

Yeah.

I was talking to one of the scientists who's written a book on endless universe.

Yes,

Endless universe.

That's the title of the book.

Paul Seinhardt.

Yes.

So I met him in Taos and he was setting up a computer simulation of how it could have been.

When I looked at that computer simulation,

This is a form every day we work with.

We call this linga.

The word linga comes from the word leena.

Leena means the form.

We call it the form.

The form,

Form.

Form.

What do you say?

Form.

Form.

Form.

Sorry.

Form.

Oh,

Form.

Thank you.

It's my English accent.

Okay.

The form.

Ah.

Now I understand.

Yeah.

So we call it the.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why it's called the form is,

Because it was the first form.

So when he breathed out and when energy played upon his body and little particles of creation started forming cycles and creating… making Mahakala a great time into a simple time process of atomic time,

Then he roared.

When he roared,

It rose like that.

That form I am seeing on his computer.

This is a form we always work… you know,

People worship and work with in so many ways.

I see this guy had it on his computer.

I said,

How did you get this?

He said,

He's been working on simulating the Big Bang.

Then I asked him a simple question.

Is it possible?

There could have been many bangs.

He did like that and then he said,

Possible.

Then I said,

If there are many bangs,

See if you have an automobile,

If you take off the manifold,

You will see the engine will go bang,

Bang,

Bang,

Bang.

If you throttle up,

It'll roar.

So I said,

If there were a series of bangs,

Could it have been a roar?

He said,

Why not,

Possibly.

I said,

We've always been saying it's a roar,

So we called the first form as the rudra.

Rudra means the one who roars.

He roared.

Like this,

Then we evolved many forms to describe this.

This was Mahakala,

This was Kala,

This was Rudra.

This is the first form and then the many forms,

How they came,

There are various aspects to it.

These things are not today.

These things have been spoken millennia ago.

How do they know all this?

The simple thing is like this,

If you look into this piece of creation,

The whole creation is present in a footprint form.

By looking at my footprint,

Suppose I walk through the garden,

By looking at my footprint,

You can measure my weight,

My height,

My gait,

You can even guess how smart am I.

Depending on how I navigate through spaces,

You can see how smart you are.

In this country,

Everybody is,

You know,

Eulogizing this all the time,

The Native Americans could read the footprint and they could read the tracks,

How many people,

What is happening,

This,

That,

That,

Lot of detail into it because the footprint leaves a whole lot of things.

So,

In many ways,

Various aspects of this creation,

You will never be able to see this through physical approach or even mental approach because mind we see it as a physical projection.

Mind is a little subtler projection of the body.

So,

These things cannot be seen,

But the footprint can be seen.

With the footprint,

You can know most of the things.

Only thing you cannot know is what is my nature,

You cannot know.

But you can figure out if I walk through let's say a difficult terrain,

You can easily figure out how smart I am.

You can figure out what is my thinking.

People do this.

Looking at the animal footprints,

I do this myself.

Looking at the footprint,

I know where it is going,

Is it hungry,

Is it not hungry,

Is it hunting,

Is it just walking around?

I… I've survived in the jungles because I see these things very clearly.

So,

Looking at the footprint of creation,

If you have lot of these numbers,

Which I don't have no numbers in my head,

Only number I have is this one.

Sometimes it becomes like this.

I don't have any other numbers.

Because of that,

I don't bother about that.

But if you have all these numbers,

If I show you the footprint,

Can you build a mathematical ladder to that?

If you build that,

We can say scientists are seeing something that their eyes or their telescopes cannot see.

Yes.

But can I ask a follow-up question?

Because one of the reasons cosmologists like myself like to invoke psychic universes is because of the apparently miraculous fine tunings of the physical constants which are required for life to arise.

This is what's called the anthropic principle,

That there are unexplained coincidences between the constants of physics which are required for observers to arise in the universe.

And one of the explanations of this is that you have many cycles of the universe,

Expansion and re-collapse,

And every time you have a bounce,

You change the constants.

And so the idea is that many of these cycles are just empty,

No mind,

No consciousness.

But every now and then the constants have the right values for consciousness to arise.

And so one reason you invoke cycles of the universe is that that means occasionally you are going to be in a universe,

Well,

You have to be in one of the cycles which is suitable for life.

So this is one example of the multiverse.

Does that tie in at all with the reason for having 84?

Yes,

Very much.

See this 84,

How we're talking about it is there are yogis who have done a whole lot of mathematics to it.

I'm not one of them.

I'm good by knowing it by my experience.

I don't wish to write it on the blackboard.

I don't have the competence,

Let me say that.

Competence comes only when you care for something,

Otherwise you don't acquire those competences.

So this 84,

Out of this 84,

Many have dissolved.

Their bare,

Vague footprint is there,

But they have dissolved,

But the footprint is there in this.

Twenty-one of them have a little larger footprint.

Out of this twenty-one,

Ten are almost non-physical.

Non-physical,

Let's say.

The remaining eleven are somewhat mildly physical,

But the last four are reasonably physical.

So,

We see this number twenty-one as an important process,

Whatever we want to do,

We do it in twenty-one minutes,

In twenty-one ways and all this because these twenty-ones still have a footprint.

If you want to rise beyond your physicality,

Absolutely you have to rise beyond all the twenty-one.

But you don't have to bother about those things because if you rise above the physical nature,

Not just in terms of physical body,

But even the information is physical.

All information that you carry,

Which makes you you,

Whether dead or alive,

It still makes you you,

That one we want to rise beyond that.

So that imprint carries all this and out of the eighty-four,

Twenty-one are still manifest in different levels of… for lack of words I'm saying transience,

From almost non-existent.

Others below twenty-one,

They're completely gone but their footprint is still there.

They don't have any influence or impact,

Their qualities are not imprinted in us but these twenty-one qualities are there in us.

How many more will happen?

One-hundred-and-twelve will happen.

One-hundred-and-twelve?

One-hundred-and-twelve.

Each one of them may take whatever they… they've calculated these yojanas up to… how long it'll take,

That's not my number game,

Is not my game.

So,

Hundred-and-twelve times it'll happen.

After that,

It will manifest in a way that it's non-physical and becomes a perpetual universe.

A non-physical universe will manifest itself that it doesn't need physical matter but exists and even individual existence may happen,

We don't know.

It may happen or one massive happening may happen but a proper manifestation of universe without physicality.

When that happens,

That is the final one.

This is seen as a thing but I know science will not ever go with that,

So let us leave those things.

All I am saying is,

This simple thing that I am talking about,

If I give you the footprints as to how this has evolved,

If you can create a mathematical backbone to it,

I think it'll make sense to lots of people and you will be seeing further,

Not with physical eyes,

But mathematically you will be seeing much further than where you are seeing right now.

That's fascinating because that is not one of the standard modern cosmological theories,

You see.

So,

But what you're saying is that you've got these cycles which at some stage evolve beyond the straightforward physical.

See,

The beautiful thing is,

They're clearly defining this.

Because the Indian cosmology is built and personified in a certain way,

Most people,

Indian origin people will know this.

There is a coiled up snake upon which a god is lying down.

That call… that snake is called shesha.

Shesha means,

When we are learning mathematics in Indian languages,

The remainder… what do you call it?

Remainder.

Remainder is called shesha.

What is remaining is shesha.

Even in our common language,

We use that.

Shesha means something left over.

So,

This… this snake is the shesha upon which once again creation begins.

So,

This shesha left over,

The leftovers are there from last twenty-one universes.

But the imprint of the leftover is diminishing as you go backwards and increasing as you come forwards.

But the last four are significant.

And so,

Was consciousness in only some of these universes?

No,

No,

No.

All of them were conscious,

Fully manifest universes.

All of them were conscious.

But they ran out of time.

That what was kala became mahakala,

But it left footprints.

In some footprints,

They're very strong,

We can see exact nature of what they are.

Some footprints are very weak that we can barely see that they are there.

And is this evolution towards,

After a hundred-and-twelve cycles,

A non-physical state,

Does that correspond to a sort of evolution of consciousness?

In a way,

It is like consciousness graduating that without physical form,

It can manifest itself.

That's a.

.

.

That's a very positive note,

Maybe which.

.

.

I know we've come to the end of our two hours,

But that's a.

.

.

That's a really interesting thought,

But especially that you made it mathematical.

Thank you,

Sir.

You came all the way.

Thank you very much,

Sir.

Fantastic.

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Reviews

I need more 2 hours 🙂.
Thanks a lot

I’ll be listening to this MANY times to grasp the essence. So grateful! Ahimsa