Kiran Mazumdar Shaw With Sadhguru In Challenging Times

Yogi, mystic and visionary, Sadhguru is a spiritual master with a difference. An arresting blend of profundity and pragmatism, his life and work serves as a reminder that yoga is a contemporary science, vitally relevant to our times.

Transcript

So I think what has spread the virus very fast is really travel. And that's why I think we are suffering the consequences and the rapid spread of this disease across the globe. So in terms of the infectiousness is very high, That is understood, But definitely, We know more than eighty percent of the people who have the infection are not even showing any signs of in. . . You know, No symptoms absolutely. They're going about normally, There's so many families that we know that entire families infected, But they had absolutely no symptoms and they're out of it after some time. So having said that, Is the. . . Generally is the virus moving in the direction of becoming less virulent for human body? Well, You know, Sadhguruji, The point is every virus mutates and there is nothing to suggest that it is becoming less virulent or more virulent. It is going through mutations which all viruses go through. The big problem that we have is that, You know, This virus, Like all viruses, It is really very lethal to people whose immune systems are compromised, Which means they don't have the ability to fight these viruses and this happens with many, Many viruses. For instance, Even in the SARS case, There were a large. . . There were a number of fatalities which was largely to the healthcare workers who did not protect themselves and many people who were elderly also succumbed to the SARS virus. But fortunately, It hadn't spread too widely because as I mentioned to you, Travel at that time was not as much as it is today. Now the other thing is that we must understand that this particular virus, If you look at the statistics, You are right, Eighty percent of people have mild or asymptomatic versions of the virus. So it doesn't really affect eighty percent of the population in a lethal way. Out of the twenty percent, I would say that ten percent show moderate symptoms but they recover quite easily. In the ten percent that remains, It is really three percent who are succumbing and if you look at the people who are succumbing to this disease, There is also data to show that these are people with comorbidities like diabetes, Heart disease, Lung disease, Pulmonary disease or these are people who are otherwise immunocompromised in general. They have weak immune systems and of course, Many of them are old because as you know, In Italy where we had a huge onslaught of deaths in the first phase, Ninety percent of the people who died were above the age of eighty. So there's lot of data to show that by and large, Most people in our population will not really have to face any kind of serious infection. But it is causing various other problems to the entire nation. Dr. Kiran Bedi, MD Yes, In fact that's the question I want to ask you, Guruji, Because I think what this pandemic has actually done is, It has basically completely changed the mental makeup of people. Today there's a deep-rooted fire. . . Fear psychosis that has set into everyone's mind saying, Is this a Russian roulette where somebody will live when somebody will die? Those are thoughts going in people's minds. Secondly, They want to know when will we come out of this whole crisis? Will our lives ever be normal? What is going to happen to our future? I mean, This question is being asked by young people, By middle-aged people, By the elderly saying will we ever be able to go out? You're going on saying we're vulnerable, We're locked down. Now, You know, Even if a vaccine comes, You know, Will the elderly be able to be protected? You know, Those kind of questions people are asking and they're saying our lives are disrupted. And there's a lot of mental health issues that we are seeing today and I wanted your perspective and your views on how we should deal with this disease, This pandemic. Definitely, I will explore that dimension of how to handle human psychological struggles that one will go through in a situation like this. But coming to this vaccine aspect, There are many scientific opinions, They are saying there are over ten varieties of mutations already in the virus. So if you produce a vaccine, We will have to produce ten different vaccines and seven billion people, Is it even practical I'm asking? Guruji, That is not how vaccines are produced. Basically this particular vaccine that is being produced for COVID-19 is based on what we call as the spike protein. The spike protein is the protein with which these coronaviruses enter the body. And the spike protein of COVID-19 is very specific to COVID-19. So what is happening is that they're developing vaccines based on spike protein, It doesn't matter how many mutations you have. The mutation that won't change? But the mutation does not affect the spike protein because the protein is very, You know, Constant. Inside the RNA, You might have a few mutations here and there which actually doesn't alter too much of how the virus works. But the spike protein is the most lethal part of the virus and that is not changing. So when most of the viruses are being made using the spike protein, Then you know the chances of the vaccine not working in the way people are thinking about it is not true. The only thing is every vaccine has to create a certain immune response from the body. And the question being asked is how strong is that response and is that response enduring? How long will it be before you can get reinfected with such a virus? That is the question being asked. So India having a massive capacity to produce vaccines, I think in many ways India holds the answer. If we come up with the vaccine, Production and distribution can definitely handled by Indian industries because we have. . . We are already manufacturing nearly seventy percent of the world's vaccine requirement and that will be a big possibility here. Having said that, Well, About the psychological factors that people go through. See essentially, A human being is naturally. . . There is a physical existence to us which is what is being threatened by the virus right now. But now we are creating a psychological threat which is our own making. Our health and our mortal nature is being challenged by the virus, It can only do that. But now we are creating an added problem of psychologically challenging ourselves, Emotionally freaking ourselves completely and driving ourselves towards suicide and various things. They're saying the suicide is on the rise already, Just because we have to stay home. Lot of people were suffering their work, Now they're suffering no work. So I'm saying essentially, We are bringing up whole generation of people in a way that we are not really fit for life on this planet. Because our education systems, Our social structures are not seeing how to reinforce a human being in such a way, No matter what comes, A famine comes, A war comes, A volcano erupts, An earthquake happens or a pandemic comes. All these are things which happen in every generation. Everybody is comparing this to World War II, Because they've seen World War II only in Hollywood movies. They have not seen the war. What a war means, Being in a war and being in a pandemic has two different things. If you just close your eyes and sit for fourteen days, It's gone. I'm saying, If all of us, If everybody was trained in little bit of yoga and meditation and we said everybody, The whole population, Fourteen days sit quietly in one place, The pandemic is over on the planet. A world war is of a different nature, A war is of a different nature. Though this country has fought three to four wars in the last seventy-five years, Those wars, Fortunately for us, The brave soldiers fought it on the borders. They never allowed the war to come into Bangalore city or Coimbatore city or anywhere. If the war enters your city, It's another matter altogether. So here your home is intact, Nobody has bombed it. All you have to do is sit at home. Now sitting at home with your family or alone has become such a big problem, Essentially because you have not built your psychological structure to be resilient enough to take. If you are this fragile, This fragile, What. . . What big things are you going to do in your life, I'm asking? I'm asking you Kiran, You built a big business. Many times in the process of building this business, Have you not faced situations worse than the pandemic in your personal life? Kiran Bedi, MD – Yeah, I mean every flavor has to be. . . Sadhguru – Everybody has, Everybody has, You know. So I'm saying if your psychological fiber is not resilient enough, You are not going to do anything significant in your life. This must be understood. So right now it's become fashionable in the world to say, I'm. . . I have anxiety, I have this thing, That thing, You know, All kinds of exotic names. They tell me there are seventy-two exotic names for various human problems that they have in their mind. But essentially the fundamental problem is just this – you did not learn how to handle your own intelligence. That's all the problem is. See, Various things are happening to other creatures. Let us say worms are dying, Insects are dying on a much bigger scale than us on a daily basis. But they're only dying, They're not psychologically suffering, Because they have a very small brain. So the development of your brain, Which is a tremendous possibility in your life, That has become a problem for most people. Because our education systems, Our family structures, Our social structures have done nothing to teach a human being how to manage our own faculties. When I say our own faculties, See right now people are suffering. You don't have virus yet, Somebody else has, But you are suffering. What is it you're suffering? You are imagining things that may happen to you. So essentially your imagination is out of control. So you do not know how to use your imagination to your benefit. Your imagination is driving you crazy. So I know this sounds harsh, But it is time we understand if we do not. . . If we do not learn. . . Dr. Kiran Gautam, MD What I want to say is you're absolutely right about this kind of psychosis. But there is also another problem that people are facing, Which is really the fear of the unknown, The fear of the future not having. . . Like a lot of young people are very worried that they've lost their jobs. That also brings in a very different type of mental depression, Because you are doing very well in your job, Everything was fine. Suddenly you've been told you've been laid off, And you don't even know when you will get your next job. I mean, I'm also referring to all the migrant labor who started, You know, Moving back to their towns thinking of what's going to happen to us, We might as well go back to our villages, Because we don't know whether we're going to get a job or not. I think this economic collateral damage that this pandemic has done to people is also a deep cause of worry for people. And that deep cause of worry also leads to, You know, A mental. . . A negative state of mind where you say, Am I ever going to come out of this? You know, I want to understand that part. So definitely it is true, I'm not trying to belittle the challenge. The challenge is there, There's no question, These are challenging times, There is absolutely no question about it. But I'm saying, Is it not important as individual human beings, We build our psychological makeup or our psychological space in such a way that it's resilient enough to take the challenges, Because challenges are also possibilities, Variety of possibilities. Yes there are economic challenge. My only concern is as long as we don't starve anybody in this country, Rest of it is fine. We must ensure that nobody starves. For this what is most important, One thing is fortunately in this country over sixty percent of the population is in agriculture. So they have things to do and they will not be out of work. There is work to do on the field and we will make sure food is produced. Once there is substantial food, It's only a question of distribution. In terms of policy, The government is doing many things to ensure that nobody starves and a whole lot of people from cities have gone back to the village. So more human potential will go into agriculture if agricultural policies already, You know, This is something through Rally for Rivers as you know, We've been fighting with the government to relax the farmers produce from all kinds of controls. It took the virus to do it, I couldn't do it. I've been asking why can't a farmer sell his produce wherever he wants, In whichever form he wants, Why these controls? And a farmer produce organization has been fighting for. So these laws come from another time when there were famines as food control was created because there used to be famine, So the distribution and control should be in the hands of the government. The age of famines are gone today. So now it is a question of agriculture being a successful lucrative commerce. So if that happens for the latitudinal spread that we have from Kanyakumari to Kashmir, We. . . Twelve months of the year we can grow crops in this country. This is one of the few countries where you can do that. And we have sixty percent of the population involved in agriculture. If you even increase it, We should have reduced it, But now because of this pandemic in the next couple of years, If it increases to seventy, Seventy-five percent, There's no harm, Because we must. . . The government must push to see that we've opened up markets for our food, From fruits to vegetables to every kind of thing we can grow at nearly ten to twenty percent of the cost that other countries are growing, Because a variety of things – the labor the way it is, The land the way it is, There are many things to do. All these things are well thought out and it is there, It's just a question of implementation and execution. Of course, The educated people who. . . You know, The young people living in Bangalore, They are not going to go and grow tomatoes or something else, That is true. But this is the nature of the time. In every generation, There'll be some crisis. Okay, If you. . . If you take this generation as you and me, Not those people who call themselves mille. . . Millennials, We didn't face a war. Volcano did not erupt in the Nandi Hills or in the Velliangiri Hills. No earthquake happened, No great calamity happened to us, All right. This is a very fortunate calamity compared to what other people have faced, Isn't it so? Those who lived in the World War II era, What they faced, Those who lived in the times of Bengal famine, What they faced and what we are facing, Nothing. . . The way we are equipped today with technology and wherever you are, You are in communication. So we need to understand as a generation of people, We have had the best time, A challenge has come. Let us see how to ride this challenge in the best possible way. I see there's a tremendous possibility for a developing country like India, Because even if you compare yourself to other Asian nations, Leave the Western nations, Even the Asian nations, We are twenty to twenty-five years behind them. This is our best opportunity to catch up. In the next five to eight years' time, We can catch up and level the living standards to how at least the other Asian nations are for every human being who lives here. It's not just about a few successful people. Right now, Only two to five percent of the people are living in a certain level of comfort and well-being. Rest of the people, Nearly forty percent are living in a very bad state. Another forty percent are living in a struggling kind of state, Not in a comfortable state. Most human beings in the country, Unfortunately, Cannot live comfortably simply because of transportation systems, Pollution, Variety of things. This is our best opportunity to fix that and also the economy. There is a striving to do. For us to understand what striving means, We must take the examples of those countries which were ravaged, Because everybody is comparing this to World War II. We must take the examples of those nations which were completely ravaged and flattened by the war. Like Japan or Germany or even Britain, They were completely flattened, Nothing was left. I think these images must be shown to our young people, What happens in a war. Simply the entire city is flattened. But just go back and see how Japan is, How even UK is, How Germany is today. So in how many years did they build up? In a matter of twenty-five, Thirty years, A nation which was flat on the ground has come up and bounced and become major part. . . You know, Major part of the world's economy. So all we have is a pandemic, Which doesn't even kill the youth. They just have to be responsible so that they don't kill you and me. I'm sorry, I'm including you. I am an old man, You are a young girl. Speaker 2 – No. When I was the same age almost. So I agree with you Guruji that I think this is a very, Very important statement you made that how do we get people to understand that this is not the end of the world. This is something where we need to pause and we need to reflect and we need to see what we have done with our lives thus far and how we can, You know, Become resilient and rebuild our lives. And I, Of course, I'm always very optimistic and as a biotech and a scientist, I know that this is going to be short-lived and that, You know, We can resume our lives before too long. For your industry. . . For your industry, It's going to be a bonanza. Yes, I mean, It is a big, You know, Opportunity for our business. . . For our industry because we are doing so many important things for this pandemic, Right from developing diagnostic tests to developing therapies to developing vaccines. I mean, There's so much to do and I think that's what makes it very interesting for all of us. But I think it's also very important for us to look at what else has happened because of this pandemic. For instance, I actually have been talking about, You know, How the environment has benefited because of the lockdown. And you know, And I know that we've been talking about cleaning up our waters and rivers and filling up our rivers and, You know, Planting trees on the river banks. And now we are actually seeing that a few months have actually cleaned up the decades of pollution that we have actually done to our planet. And that actually gives me an idea which I want to discuss with you is how do we now rebuild and reboot our economy in this sort of low carbon footprint kind of economic strategy? Because I think we can do that. In fact, I was listening to a program a few days ago, Where people are talking about emission-free environments, Emission-free zones within cities. I think these are things that we should consider. What do you think, Guruji? Definitely, If you listen to all the birds and all the animals, All the creatures on this planet, Including microbes, They're congratulating the virus and saying, Let's make the planet great again, Because all the human beings are locked up. You know, Locked down rather, Not locked up, By. . . By you know, Self-lockup. So having said that, This is not to make jokes of people suffering. There is enormous challenge in everybody's life. It is not that we are free from it. Like as an organization, As an institution, For nearly, I think close to ninety days, We are locked up, An institution with so many volunteers that we need to support on a daily basis, Absolutely no revenue, We've become a zero revenue function. So we are striving to see how to use this to completely change the dynamics of how we function. It's a lot of work. Actually, We're busier than ever before, Simply busy seven days of the week, Because we are just changing the foundations. Everybody has to change the foundations of their life now. This is the thing, We must take it as a challenge. As I said, As long as you're not starved, We. . . The government must ensure nobody starves. Here we are ensuring around us, Nobody starves. Every day, Thirteen to fifteen thousand, You know, Meals we are providing for that many people, Thirteen to fifteen thousand people are being fed by us. Many of them are migrant labor, Many of them are old people in the villages who are not able to fend for themselves without any earnings. They were doing some menial jobs, Not even a full labor, They're earning fifty, Hundred rupees a day, Which was keeping them alive. Now that is missing. So we are feeding that. . . I was just shocked to realize where you think there is lush agriculture going on around us, In spite of that, Nearly fifteen thousand people have to be fed every day, Otherwise they have no means. So we are doing all this, But absolutely no revenue. We are constantly coming up with more and more innovative ways to do it, But we're just doing it joyfully. Some people are. . . Choose to do everything miserably, Because even when they went to work, They went miserably. When they don't have work, They're miserable. This has to change, Because as human beings, We must understand our experience of life is entirely crafted by us. Our situations in our life is not always ours. The times will decide many times in which time of history we exist, Accordingly the situations are. Many, Many things that we are doing today, Including this talk from Bangalore to Coimbatore, Is a consequence of times. It's not you and me suddenly talking to each other, Isn't it? The technology is there, The times are like that. So we're doing it. You're doing biotech because of the times you're born in, Twenty-first century. If you are here thousand years ago, You wouldn't be doing biotech, You would be doing something else, I'm saying. So our activity and how effective, Not effective we are, Is many times decided by the times in which we exist. But how we are, Our experience of life is entirely determined by us. Youth must understand this and take charge of this. What this means is, World will throw all kinds of situations to us. What we make out of it is in our hands. If we want to hit every ball that the world throws at us in a proper way, The most important thing is that I am never a problem within myself. My thought and my emotion is not an impediment in my life. My intelligence is not against me. This much everybody should ensure. Well, I've been screaming Inner Engineering for last nearly forty years now. But the virus. . . After virus came, Hundreds and thousands of people are doing Inner Engineering program now, All right? So this is because people take action about their own well-being only when there is a crisis unfortunately. I'm saying this crisis has come, At some time it will pass, Whether it will pass in two months, Three months, Six months, But it will pass, All right, One way or the other. We'll find the vaccine or we'll learn to live with it or it will die by itself or something will happen. It's not going to live forever. But should we not use this crisis to become far more resilient human beings that no matter what comes our way, We will make the best out of it. This has to come into our youth. Youth are worried, I don't like that. Usually worry is for old people who have become helpless, All right? Because of, You know, Deterioration of their body, They've become helpless, So they're worried. Youth and worry should not exist together. I know I sound strong for them because they are not strong, That is what I'm worried about. Youth should be strong. There should be no such thing as worry in their life. Okay, You lost your job, So what? All you lose your lifestyle, Not your life, Right? Lifestyle has become life, This has to change. They must be focused on their life, Not on their lifestyle. Lifestyle is just a statement for other people's, You know, Envy or whatever. But life is what matters. One most important thing is, Everybody must understand, Through this phase of pandemic, One fundamental thing everybody should know is, We must keep ourselves alive. This is the most fundamental thing. And we must keep everybody else around us alive. That means we should not become the carriers for them to lose their lives. This you take care and make yourself more resilient in this time. This is the time to invest upon yourself because you have nothing much to do with the world. This is the time you must do something with yourself. See, If any human being believes or thinks that they're doing something important, The most important thing in their life is they must work upon themselves. Because if you want to dispense anything, If you want to transmit anything, If you want to contribute in some way, One most important thing is you are not a issue in your own life. Right now, Worry means you are a issue in your own life. Pen. . . The virus is not capable of making you worry. Virus is doing its job well. You who is such a big, You know, The topmost creature in this planet, Evolutionary scale is such that you are on top of the evolution in this planet, And you are creating your own problems. Virus is doing its job well. Is it not our business to do our job well as human beings? So, Guruji, There's another very interesting aspect of this virus. This virus has taught us a lot of things. One is it has also taught us that we don't need so much. You know, We. . . Somehow this lockdown has also shown us that this consumerism that we want. . . Now. . . Now you're saying virus is a better guru than me. I don't like this. I think you will. . . You will also agree with me that we have. . . I am agreeing the damn virus is doing better than me. Okay, Even. . . You are saying it, I'm not. But I'm just saying that look, If the. . . The virus has also taught us that, You know, This. . . This greed, This asp. . . This greedy aspirations that we have that we want to consume more and more and more. We've seen that in the last few months, Because we've been denied access to any kind of consumer activity, We've been very content with what we have. And we've also realised that, You know, Pollution has come under control and we realise that a lot of things that we've done as consumers have also added to that pollution. Do you think it's going to change us? Or do you think we'll go back to our normal ways? Is that human sort of, You know, Psychology that, You know, It's so short-lived that we forget that we went through a good phase, Where. . . Which reminded us that we don't need to possess so much, We don't need to consume so much, And that, You know, This is a time for us to actually start thinking about our environment. Do you think there's going to be this realisation and recognition that our environment and our planet is at risk if we don't stop being so greedy? In Kannada language, There is a saying called, It's Mashana Vairagya. That means they will go to the cremation ground because somebody dear to them has died. And when they go to the cremation and the body starts burning, Everybody gets vairagya for some time. That is they say, What is there about life in the end, This is all there is. What am I struggling for? What am I fighting for? You and me, Why are we fighting with each other? All these realisations happen. But especially now, Within five, Ten minutes, Because even there, Their cell phone is not on silent, Even when the cremation is happening, Messages are coming, Ting-tong and everything. So the moment they look at this, Vairagya will go and again, They'll get engaged. So right now, In my opinion, I'm saying this is not a perfect this thing. If this virus and its impact on our economic and other activity goes away, Let's say by mid-September or end of September, I feel within three to four months, Everybody will be back to their normal, In their usual sense of ignorance and arrogance. But if it lasts for a year, Year-and-a-half, Let's say twelve to eighteen months it lasted, Definitely it will leave a lasting change on this generation of people. I hope it is so disgusting for me to see that a virus which is not even a life yet, It's half a life, It is just in the process of becoming a life, It doesn't have a life without entering our body. That kind of thing has to be our guru. It has to teach us dispassion, It has to teach us sense, All this. The simple thing, Someday we must do this in Bangalore. I've been talking to some of the builders in Bangalore. I spoke to the Kradai people, They were all very excited. But I know this excitement, They won't do anything, Most of them, They will only go on with the same thing which sells easy. The simple thing is this, If you drive in any street in Bangalore during let's say the peak hour, You're driving 4. 30, 5 o'clock in the evening, You will see your side of the street is also full with traffic, The opposite side also is full with traffic. What this essentially means is, Those who live here work there, Those who live there work here. What is the sense in this? Why can't you work and live in reasonably in the same region? So I proposed something called as a one building city. You get fifty acres away from Bangalore city. I have told many of the Bangalore builders, Let me see if anybody does. Get fifty acres away, Let's say fifty kilometers away on one of the highways. Only one acre you build there, Giving you two FSI, That means you can build hundred floors, One acre, Hundred floors you build. Fifty-nine acres, Just plant trees, Create a lake, Walking spaces, Everything. No waste comes out of this building. In this building, You have residences, Offices, Small shopping areas, A small multiplex, You have a little school, Up. . . At least up to seventh standard, Everything. So nobody need to drive anywhere. Once a week you just for fun you want to drive somewhere, Go wherever you want to go, Spend as much gas as you want to spend, No problem. But every day you are not driving, You have a beautiful place to live. Look at the way children are growing up. I'm really concerned about this generation of children. They're living in one or two. . . Two bedroom or three bedroom apartments. If they step out, They're straight into the traffic. They don't know what's a playground, They don't know what's a forest, They don't know what it means to swim in a lake. If at all if they go that chlorine filled, What that swimming pool they will swim, That is not swimming. Only when you swim in a river, You swim in a lake, You swim in the ocean, There is something else happening to you, It's not just about exercise. Life happens to you in. . . In a very strong way. Children as a generation of people, They're not experiencing this. This means, I'm telling you, We don't need such a coronavirus, Simply if. . . If the bat sneezes we will all die. We will become that kind of generation in future, Because essentially the strength of life comes because of our involvement, Because life is enmeshed. As you know bio. . . As a biotechnologist, Life is enmeshed. More than ninety percent of our body in terms of number of human cells we have and number of microbes, Bacteria and viruses we have, More than ninety percent is them. We are only ten percent residing in this body. Our parental. . . Parental genetics and DNA is only ten percent. Just is all them. Why are we not able to handle them? Simply because our bodies have become so weak. In my opinion, I could be wrong, Please tell me as a scientist. I feel these kind of viruses might have come thousands of times, But previous generations handled it well. As a generation, As you said, One thing is the airline travel which goes across the world. Another thing is, After you knew our physical bodies physiologically, We are the weakest generation ever. Ever before humanity was this weak. In basic constitution, We have become weak. When people worked on the land, Either they hunted or they farmed or did something, They were of a different level of strength, Which we don't have right now. And this is further going to deteriorate if you don't take care of what kind of spaces we live in, How we build our cities. This is what the youth should get involved in. It is very, Very important. No, So Guruji, Slight correction, I think the human race has been a victim of very virulent strains of microbes and viruses in the past also. But the thing is that we are now a much larger population in the world. And I think what has happened is we've also sort of started destroying a lot of the natural habitat of animals and things like that. So a lot of that has created different kinds of viruses. But it's not to say that we haven't, You know, You've seen huge number of animal species have been destroyed by viruses in the past. You know, Dinosaurs are supposed to have been, You know, Sort of obliterated by a viral attack and so on and so forth. So it's not that human beings have always withstood viruses, Because it does happen from time to time. But I think there's no excuse now because we are in a much better position to deal with pandemics which we have ignored. I think that is the bigger challenge today. And I think what it has also made us realize is that our healthcare system is so broken that a pandemic had to make us realize that we have to focus on providing basic healthcare for people. And who know that in our country especially, We haven't really focused a lot on primary healthcare, We should be doing more of that. We should be much more vigilant on these kind of outbreaks. All this I hope will happen in the future because if you take early action, You can stop it very fast. Sadhguru – Definitely there is no disagreement on that, Kiran. But at the same time. . . Kiran Bedi, I agree with you that yes, We are becoming a very kind of a society where we don't. . . We are constantly weakening our immunity. But I think, You know, If you look at it, There's one side you want cleanliness and sterile conditions of living and the others have to be a little more balanced, Saying, Let's have a normal life. See, I mean, Because you mentioned this now, Definitely this is something that we need to look at. See, One thing is we're talking about the size of the population. Whether it's our reproduction, Or the way we are working in the world, Or the way we are running our economy, Or the way we are building our cities, Everything is done in some compulsive way. Human being means the very reason why we call ourselves beings is because we know how to be. That means we are conscious beings. So does it look like we have created things consciously, Either the city plans in the country or the way we are creating anything, Nothing has been done consciously, Compulsively, Ad hoc, We're doing things, Including our population. From 1947 to now, In seventy-five years, We become four times over, From 330 million, Today we are 1. 3 or 1. 4 billion people. So when the footprint is that big of human beings, No other creature can survive. Since 1970 in the world, Seventy percent of the vertebrate population has come down. One in. . . One in five of the species are endangered right now. Every out of. . . Every five species, Among insects, Worms, Plants, Everything included, One in five, That's twenty percent of the life on the planet is endangered. That means in the next five, Ten years, Twenty percent of the life on this planet will be gone. And those twenty percent, What significant roles they have in making us who we are, Is there is no. . . Nobody knows exactly what is what, All right? Who is doing good. . . Good to us, We don't know. But all of them together is the ecological cycle, Which we are doing things. So the diversity, Biodiversity is going away because of us. But how come we don't think. . . When we know so many things of technology, Science and everything, How come we don't know for this planet, How many machines we must have, How many cars we must have, How many human beings should we have? How come we don't know this? Where is our sense. . . See this whole big talk about science, Science, What is science? When your life is so haphazard, What science are you talking about, I'm asking? To become conscious is the biggest science. Because if you are conscious, You will naturally handle everything in a scientific manner. Science does not mean it comes from the text or from the West. See, Right now when we say healthcare, For a nation of 1. 4 billion people, Do you really believe you can imitate an American system of healthcare in this country? They are spending 3. 2 trillion dollars on three-and-fifty million people. For 1. 4 billion people, You will need twelve to thirteen trillion dollars. Our economy is hardly over two. . . Two trillion, I don't know now what is the size. It must have come down, Shrunk quite a bit, I don't know what it is. But anyway, Two-and-a-half trillion dollars is what we. . . Our economy is. When are we going to spend the. . . Twelve trillion dollars just on our healthcare? Such a thing is not going to happen, All right? That means it'll. . . Generations will pass without any result. If we want results, The most important thing is, As we know, Both for chronic ailments and for. . . Now for pandemic also, For this kind of pandemic, Maybe the influenza didn't care who you were, Anyway it killed you in Spanish influenza, Whatever happened. But now at least for the present coronavirus, Your immune system, How strong your system is, Determining whether you live or die. So definitely, If all our. . . All of us had strong immune systems, We wouldn't even have bothered and destroyed our economic process. We would have gone on without any big problem. So we are always looking for these. . . For these kind of solutions. We. . . We are all now waiting for that miraculous magic wand, What one, Vaccine will come. Well we've still not found a vaccine for SARS, MERS, HIV, Which have been around for twenty years, Twenty-five years, We've not found a vaccine. What is this miraculous vaccine that we're going to get by the end of the year? If it comes, It's fantastic. I'm not negative about it, But I'm saying, Why are we looking at life like this? Because this is an unnatural way of conducting life. In this country, We must focus on how to teach every human being who is born in this country, What they should eat, What should be their lifestyle, How to build their body, Physical strength, Mental strength, And immune strength, How they can build. This we can teach. We can. . . All these youth who are talking about, We are worried about the future. Each one of them, I will empower them, Let them go and teach. Oh, What. . . What will I earn? You don't have to earn, Somebody will feed you. You will have the experience of traveling the country, Being. . . Mingling with the people and a tremendous possibility. Do this for five years. After that, There'll be many, Many possibilities for you to take charge of. You will become a leader in your own right. I'm saying there are million things to do. The most important thing when it comes to health is, In this country, It must be preventive. Healthcare as we know it in the West is not practical for this. It's not even practical for them. In my opinion, If anything sinks United States, It's going to be their healthcare. Three. . . Three trillion dollars for three-and-fifty million people. And it's a most affluent country. Affluence means what? Essentially choice of nourishment, Choice of lifestyle, Isn't it? These two things if you have, If you have access to choice of nourishment and choice of lifestyle, You must ensure you're healthy, Isn't it? This is. . . This is every human being's business. Healthcare should not be the business of doctors or healthcare industry as such. Health must be the business of every individual. We can build this in the country in the next three to five years. Every Indian must understand, Health is my business. What should I do about it? We are going on throwing out statics. . . Statistics. Forty percent is diabetic, Fifty percent are dying of cardiac failure, This many people are dying of this. This is not the way. Why are we just going on making predictions? We are saying another twenty-five years, This many people will die of smoking. Well, Smoking you control to some extent, All right? Somebody who must smoke ir. . . In the. . . Irrespective of his concern for life, Leave him, That's his pleasure, All right? That's a choice an individual is making. But at least he can't blow it in your face, That much law has come. Similarly, You can make laws and policies for your health is your business. Everybody must be doing something about their health. You do your yoga or if you don't want to do yoga, Swim, Run, Climb a mountain, Do some damn thing. But there must be something, Every organization must fix this. I'm saying, It can start with private organizations, People who work for you, For example. You have eleven, Twelve thousand people working for you. Now you must say, See all of you, You need to be like this. If this is your height, This must be your weight. This is what you must do. Okay, You are overweight, We are not going to punish you. I'll give you one month leave. Go fix yourself and come back. I'm saying we need to do this because the cost of that person who takes whatever, If I take one minute to walk from this point to that point in your laboratory, That guy takes one-and-a-half minutes, That's a big loss for you, Isn't it? I'm saying in every way it's a slow down. Because a human being in terms of function is like a machine. How efficient this machine is, Accordingly it pays or it doesn't pay. How come one person produces so much and another person not able to produce anything in their life? Simply the efficiency of both your body and your brain, Isn't it? So why are we not investing in that? Why are we going on thinking about healthcare as a massive industry as if. . . See everybody is talking, How many beds per thousand people do we have in our country? It is the lowest compared to a whole lot of nations. But I'm saying why should people go to a hospital bed? I have not been in a hospital bed all my life. I will see how to fix myself. I will tell you we started this thing, Now we renamed it as Rejuvenation Misunderstandings. Initially this was called as Yogic Hospital. So when I created the Yogic Hospital and we said these are the treatments that we will take up, Largely chronic ailments because infectious diseases must be handled by medicine because it's a warfare. It's a external invasion, You have to deal with it. So there are a bunch of doctors from Detroit, They were interested in this and they came to see the Yogic Hospital at the yoga center. After three days of staying here, Our office called me and said, Sadhguru, These doctors are very angry, They. . . They want to leave right away. I said, What happened? They said, We don't know, They're just screaming. I said, Okay, Let me see them. I went there, I said, What's the problem? They said, You have Yogic. . . Yogic Hospital. We walked all over the place, We didn't see any hospital. Oh, Then I said, Oh, Your idea of a hospital is a proper bed and people serving them from morning to evening. If you serve them like that, They will misunderstand a hospital as a hospitality and they will stay there in that bed all the time. My idea of hospital, I said, You come, I'll show you. On that day, I think we had little over. . . Somewhere between ninety to hundred-and-ten people in the yogic hospital. I said, You come, I'll show you and I. . . I put all my yogic hospital patients to work in the garden or in the kitchen or somewhere where they have to work with the soil, Water, You know, Be with nature. We are giving them a treatment protocol, We are giving them a exercise and yogic protocol, But we also have activity protocol for them. No question of lying down in bed and waiting for people to come and put tablets in your mouth. That is only when you're completely out, All right, At a certain point if something goes wrong and you're completely out, You need that kind of thing. But for everything, Everybody is going into a bed in, You know, In western countries. Now we are looking at that kind of healthcare in this country. It is never going to happen. If it happens, It's a disaster. Because if you out of thousand people, I think some countries have eight beds for thousand people or something like that. So eight out of thousand people are lying down in hospitals thinking it's a hotel. What is the point of that kind of healthcare? It's very important here we must deliver a preventive process in terms of food, In terms of daily lifestyle practices, How you live, What you do, Industry, Businesses, Everybody must set. . . Set up the standards that it's your business to be healthy. It's not just about you. It's about the organization that you work for. It is about the nation in which you live. You becoming sick is hugely expensive for a country like this. Everybody else who is really struck with some bad ailment, Like cancer or something is now. . . We are not able to treat them and give them what we should give them simply because all kinds of people are down with their diabetics and blood pressure and whatever else. You have no business to have your blood pressure shooting up or your sugar shooting up if you do something about it. I'm saying one thing we can do, Which is. . . I'm not. . . It's not going to happen, It's my dream. Now that we learned there are many benefits of lockdown, Every year we must lockdown the country and if possible the world for three weeks. These three weeks are one thing you can go where you want, Only thing is you can't. . . Kill around the world if you want. You can swim across the oceans if you want, Do whatever, No machines. All machines off for three weeks in a year, You will see people will become fitter, The world will become better. Now they're not able to go out, So they're complaining. They can go out, They can walk around the town as much as they want or they can swim across the ocean if they have the energy to do that. But no machines for three weeks in a year, It will make such a tremendous significance because the way we are driving our economy, All of us I'm saying, Every one of us without exception, We are like a powerful engine roaring, But no steering wheel in our hands. We don't know where the hell we're going, We're just going. We are going in such a way it looks like we think we are the last generation of people, That's how we are going. The virus, Not out of its wisdom, Out of its survival process, It's brought a situation for us that we must use this to become wise. We must take the steering wheel of our life, Individual life, Our psychological process, Our physiological process, And the way we're conducting the nation and the world. Steering wheel should be in our hands, Just an engine roaring without a steering wheel is a dangerous way to drive, Isn't it? Dr. Jayaprakash Narayanan-Siddhartha Very well put, Guruji, That's a beautiful analogy that you have used. Now, If you were to basically give three messages to young people, What would they be? And if you have to give three messages to the government in terms of how we should revive our economy, What should they be? Sadhguru – If it was young people, Stay alive, Stay sane, And stay young. These three things you must do and wait. Let's see what opportunities open up. Whatever opportunity opens up, Are you fit enough to take that opportunity? That's all the question is. Suppose you are a wave rider, You're like a. . . You're surfing on the waves in the ocean. What are you looking for? A big wave, Isn't it? Somebody who does not know how to ride a wave or somebody who does not know how to swim, A big wave is terrifying. For one who knows how to ride the wave, His dream is a tsunami. He would like to have a tsunami, Because riding on a hundred-foot wave is his dream, All right? So right now, There is a certain upheaval. If you're fit enough to ride that wave, Then you will see there are many, Many, Many possibilities, All right? Well, Life may not be easy, But it will be exciting and wonderful. You must decide whether you want a easy life or a fantastic experience of life. Because in this life, There is nothing other than the profoundness of our experience and the impact we can create in the world. These are only two things we have. Rest is all just, You know, Decorations for our life. The real thing is only this, What is the. . . How deep is my experience of this life? When it comes to activity, What is the impact that I can create in this world? Somebody thinks impact means they can go home and, You know, The three. . . Two or three people are at home, They will create impact on them. That's their idea of impact. Somebody will do it on a little larger community, Maybe their larger family or community or nation or the world. I mean, Everybody chooses according to their capacity or what they think is their capacity. But the important thing is for everybody when it comes to activity, Impact is important, Isn't it? Even a housewife who has chosen to just stay at home, When she cooks, When somebody, Her husband and children eat, She wants her cooking to have impact on them, Both in terms of appreciation and health and well-being and everything. So I'm saying however small an act we do, What we're looking for is impact and profoundness of experience within ourselves. For this, You gear yourself up. Let this pass, It'll pass in a few months. When it passes, Let's open our eyes and look what opportunities, There will be whole lot of opportunities. We must grab that. Till then, You stay alive, You stay sane and you stay young. Young means you're still a life in the making. You don't know what is worry. You're looking for adventure. When you're looking for adventure, You're not looking for a tame job which will come your way and which will give you livelihood. You're looking for adventure. Youth means you must looking for adventure. This is an adventurous time. You must make use of it. For the government, One thing they must ensure is, Because agricultural activity, We must invest in that. I think they're beginning to do that. These are farmer from the shackles, Break open the markets in the world for our agricultural produce because we can become the breadbasket of the world because of the latitudinal spread and twelve-month agriculture and sixty percent of the population knowing this magic of transforming mud into food. Is not a simple thing. All these three ingredients are there. Only problem is, We have not sorted out the problems of lack of scale in agriculture. We have not sorted out how to break through the markets. If there was scale, The farmer would have mark. . . Broken the markets himself. But there is no scale. He owns two acres, Two-and-a-half acres on an average. So he cannot. . . He doesn't have the scale to go and open up some market. Government must open the market and also create the power of scale. Power of scale does not mean we have to integrate the land and do one communist country or something. All we have to do is, The input is going super waste in the country, Because for every two, Three acres that you have, You have a barbed wire fence, You have a borewell, You have electric connection, You have your own system, And every day you have to go sit there just to turn on the switch and turn off the switch. All right, It's such a waste. If you really look at it, Five-hundred million people in this country, Their hands could be released for three-hundred days in a year. With sixty-five days of going to the farm, If you integrate agriculture and marketing processes, Sixty-five days you can grow two effective crops, Successful crops. This is all it takes. That means three-hundred days you will have five-hundred million people hands-free. How many things you can do if you look at it in terms of skill development and create various possibilities for them? Three-hundred. . . Five-hundred million people, They're hands-free for three-hundred days in a year with necessary opportunities if you create facilities and possibilities for that. That will happen. Our investments have to spread from the cities, It's very important. Right now in the world, Over seventy percent of the world's investment is in thirty-two cities. No wonder everybody is piling up into this city, Which is a mess. When I say city, I would say forty percent of the people in our cities are living in sub-animal levels of hygiene and well-being. One day I happened to go to, I don't know what slum it is, This side of the road I was going to. . . You may know the. . . You. . . You're familiar with Mumbai, Right? I'm not so. . . This thing. I was going to IIT Mumbai. On the right side is all fancy buildings, Big, Big buildings are there. On the left side is a slum. It was post-monsoon time. The entire slum which runs into probably hundred, Hundred-and-fifty acres or more, Everybody is walking in about a foot of filth. It seems it's regular. When the monsoon happens, The sewage will overflow from somewhere, The entire region is this much. Everybody is walking in that and they're just living there as if it's normal. So this is the condition they're living in because all the investment is in the cities. Naturally people migrate. Pre-virus, It was predicted that by 2030, Two-hundred-and-twenty million people will migrate from villages to cities in this country. Now reverse migration way is happening and we think that's a problem. That's not the problem. Actually they have solved the problem for you in many ways, Because they'll take many months to get the courage to come back, All right? This will disrupt some of the businesses. There are many problems. I'm not trying to belittle the problems of the existing businesses, But these problems are our problems. These problems are created by us. We have no business to make the next generation inherit these problems from us. So the most important thing is the government should ensure in terms of agriculture, We are super positioned. We are in the pole position, But our engine doesn't start. That's the problem. We are in a race. If we think you're in a race, You got the pole position. In terms of latitudinal spread that you have, In terms of sixty percent still being in this. . . Just imagine in this pandemic, Suppose ninety percent of your population was in industrial work or services, Whatever. Three months closure means finished. Now because sixty, Sixty-five percent is still in agriculture, You don't. . . You're not worried about them because they'll somehow manage, They're still scratching the land and they'll grow something and something will happen. So you're only worrying about thirty to forty percent of the population now. If you had to worry about ninety percent of the population, It would be a whole different challenge, Isn't it? So we have to make sure that this entire movement of people into the cities must go. This means we must move from mass production to production by the masses. So many things that we are doing as industry, Very easily it can be done at the local level. For this, We must strengthen the training processes and quality control. Production, You leave it to the people, Let them do it whichever way. If it's a certain quality, We take it, If it doesn't, We don't take it. They all become entrepreneurs. They should not be looking for jobs. Ninety percent of the people are entrepreneurs, Production can be taken. Not all of it can be done like this, But a whole lot of it can be done like this. If you look at Japan, People always talk about the few big companies of Toyota or Sony or Mitsubishi, Something like this. They're not the real Japan. There is a whole lot of small industry in Japan, Which holds such expertise in technology that this is the collaboration we need, Not the big companies. The big companies will come with their own marketing force and everything. The small companies which hold various skills, That is the kind of skill that should come. And to exercise that skill, They don't have to move to the city. In the village itself they can do. I would say, In every village, Create at least five acres of industrial space, At least five acres. And in every place where there is at least 5, 000 people, At least five acres of industrial space, See what all industries can produce there. Produce there does not mean the main industry itself need not go there and produce. They will do the training, They will do the quality control, Individual people, Local entrepreneurs will do their own thing. We need to do that because in a country of this density of population, If they all start piling up on the cities, Already most cities are unlivable. Most cities are unlivable. Unfortunately a wonderful city like Bangalore in twenty-five years, It's become unlivable, Quite unlivable, Isn't it? That's true, That's true. So I guess we have to look at this pandemic as an adversity which throws up many many challenges and many many opportunities. I mean that's the way I've looked at it. And that's what you're also saying, That we can change the way we are living, We can change a lot of our policies and we can of course create a lot of new and different opportunities for the masses. See, We are best positioned compared to any other generation in terms of technology, In terms of communication, In terms of everything, We are best positioned compared to any other generation. We have no business to complain. Only thing that we must ensure is not a single person will die of starvation. If you take care of that one thing, Rest it doesn't matter whether I live with twenty-five pairs of clothes or two, What does it matter? It's okay, If I'm well fed, I'm nourished. Rest is question of my genius and my capability and my industry, Where it will take me, Isn't it? Anyway, That was a great conversation, Sadhguruji. And as always, You always come up with such wonderful words of wisdom and wonderful discussions. I'm sure you've inspired many, Many, Many people who have been listening to this program. Thank you for giving me this opportunity, For engaging in this conversation with you. And you know, I'm sure we'll have many more occasions to keep talking about, You know, What this pandemic has taught us and what we can do and you know, How we can live our lives with resilience. So thank you.