130 Inner & Outer Games Feat. Miishka VR

Please note: This track may include some explicit language. It's one thing to be confident and secure when everything is going your way. But if you're challenging yourself that won't always be the case. "How do you win the Inner Game when your Outer Game has yet to catch up?" Miishka is a coach and former client. We discuss his question along with masculine responsibility, self-worth, and some other topics.

Transcript

All right,

Mr.

Rent again.

All right.

Coming to us from Finland this time.

Yes.

Yeah.

Has it been cool integrating back?

I mean,

How real world is it over there?

I mean,

What is real world,

Right?

Like we're creating that.

Right.

But I've been loving it.

I live in this community house with eight people and a little bit more like rural,

Like one hour from Helsinki.

And you have been really loving,

Like it's been getting more cold.

And like I always used to go to the tropics for the last six years.

Like I hated cold,

I hated winter.

I'm like embracing it.

Like I'm running to the lake and jumping into cold water like almost every day.

And like,

Just like this attitude of bringing it on.

And yeah,

I was at my summer cottage like a week ago and I really had this insight of how much this ties into like embodying our masculine archetype,

Like consciously putting myself into,

Right,

Fuck it,

Let's do a winter.

You know,

It's going to be dark.

It's going to be cold.

Like how do I,

You know,

Stay in my power and my,

How do I keep shining even when the outer world gives me hardship.

Yeah,

I get that.

Yeah,

I actually,

I miss,

I've been in Thailand a while.

I kind of missed the cold.

I didn't think I'd ever miss the cold,

But I'm eager to have winters again in the near future.

And actually,

I mean,

Your genetics probably thrive in it more.

I mean,

You have Viking DNA,

Right?

Like you probably need it on some level,

On some deep archetype level.

Cool,

Man.

Anyway,

You had a great,

You had a great question.

You sent me a voice note.

So yeah,

Let's jump into that.

I thought it was really interesting.

Let's do it.

Let's see it.

Big one.

Yeah.

So it's been coming up in my life a lot as well as like a man who now is my client also asked me this of like,

How do we,

Like,

It's easy,

Like it's easy to feel good about ourselves.

Like,

And maybe I call this is like a sense of self-worth,

But let's also explore that.

When we're winning,

When we're getting all the hot women and we're smashing it in our business,

Whatever,

You know,

When we're winning the outer game,

Let's say it's easy to feel good,

Right?

It's easy to feel good about ourselves and know our worth,

Like,

Like,

But when we're not like when we're down,

Because you also mentioned this in one of your podcasts of like how self-worth is different for men and women and like,

Yeah,

One of the main functions of testosterone obviously is like overcoming challenges.

And if we're not good at that,

Like on some deep level,

It's like,

It's hard to feel worthy,

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So this,

This thing,

How do,

What's your view on that?

Like,

What do you think?

Like how do we stay,

How do you stay connected to yourself where it's when you're losing?

Yeah.

Because I mean,

I think you caught my dark night episode.

Like a lot of my emotions were kind of going through that.

Like,

I don't really know what my identity is.

I don't know how I want to win or even like to what audience anymore.

Cause I was like almost switching the reference group that I care about or the people like I moving away from the tantra world where I got a lot of validation from awhile.

So it's like,

And then my old friends will give a shit.

Like I would like,

What is it like?

Cause I think there's something around like all of these outer game wins.

They only matter to us in a certain context,

Right?

So like you're always,

Your win only matters in that context.

So anyway,

I think at the root of it is if you're actually playing the so-called inner game,

Your win is defined by whether you did it.

Like,

I think I said that before,

Like the function of masculinity is to overcome challenges,

But like it is true that sometimes it's actually impossible.

Like if you had to fight a bear,

You're not going to win,

Right.

But you could still win the inner game,

Right?

Like it's not a fail.

I mean,

If you stand up to the bear to protect your family and it eats you,

You still won the inner game,

Right?

I mean,

That is about as manly as you can get.

So I think,

I mean,

That's the perspective I try to stay in.

I don't always stay in it though.

Yeah.

I guess also for the men who asked me this question was just went to a breakup where his woman had left him and I went through,

Yeah,

Like I kind of went through a breakup as well.

And like there was all these,

There was some moments where like there was things in my relationship scenery,

Which like where I was getting rejected and whatnot.

And yeah,

Just like,

So yeah,

It's so much easier to get into like a negative,

Tall globe when that sort of shit happens.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the inner game outer game perspective is great.

I mean,

It's easier said than done because we all have egos and we do care about the wins,

Right?

The money or the sex or whatever,

The validation or the relationship staying together versus not.

But yeah,

It is kind of like the Zen thing of going into,

Well,

I actually did the best I could with what I knew to do.

What could I have done differently anyway?

Right.

And it requires,

I hate to use the word ego,

But like it is,

If you're attached to the outer game,

It's an ego thing.

It doesn't mean you don't feel the loss,

But to beat yourself up,

I guess is the big thing.

And that's where guys,

I think really lose the inner game is when they're now ashamed of something they messed up in.

I mean,

You can't change it anyway.

Yeah.

Something I've once said to a client,

Like a thought that came through that I felt was really powerful was like,

You know,

He had this,

He obviously,

You know,

My clients are doing self-development,

Right?

But like,

Like he had this thing of doing self-development,

Like I was sensing he was doing it because he thinks he's not enough.

And I just gave him this perspective shift.

Like you're working on yourself because you know,

You deserve more.

No,

You're not doing this because you're not enough.

You're doing this because you know,

You can do more and you deserve that.

Yeah.

And that's good.

Yeah.

Cause I think,

I mean,

I'm sure you've seen this.

There's a lot of people who enter self-development because they have a problem,

Which is a good enough reason to get into it.

They probably fixed their problem after a workshop or two or in some self-inquiry.

But then because the problem was a useful catalyst,

They always have probably,

They always find new problems.

And I,

You know,

In a lot of self-help communities,

You're kind of celebrated for sharing why you're fucked up or sharing what's wrong with you.

Cause it's seen as vulnerable,

Which may or may not be true,

But it's like,

Yeah.

I mean,

At some point you have to let yourself just play in reality.

Like,

Okay,

There's nothing wrong,

Nothing to fix,

You know,

Maybe the problem wasn't an invitation and yeah,

Now I just want to do more things.

I want to experience more things.

That's all I'm developing myself for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The same client,

Like recently we did some shadow work and he again noticed like,

He's in this mindset of like,

I'm not ready yet.

I'll be ready for relationships and stepping into my purpose and all the great things that I want when I've done this and this work.

And then we like snapped him out of that.

Like,

And he came up with this,

This,

You know,

New affirmation that he anchored,

Which was like,

I choose to be ready now.

Like,

Yeah.

So that's the exact same thing.

Yeah.

So you had something you said with self-worth come up.

Do you mind sharing more of what was going on for you?

Well,

Recently I've noticed,

Yeah,

One thing I've for sure I've noticed,

Like I had this story that I'm only like lovable and worthy of love and I will only like receive love when I'm on top,

When I'm winning,

When I'm amazing.

And like,

I have this story that I need to be outstanding and special,

Which I can be,

You know,

When I'm,

When I,

When I'm in my good place,

Like,

Yeah,

I can be in that space,

But like,

Yeah,

I noticed there's a limiting belief that like for me to receive love from women,

Like I need to be amazing all the time.

And that's,

That puts a lot of pressure on myself.

Yeah.

And I actually had this really,

I had this quite a healing experience around a week ago.

I was at Summer Cottage,

Like I said,

With a lover of mine,

You know,

Really beautiful connection.

And we had some mushrooms and yeah,

It was an interesting trip.

Yeah.

It was an interesting trip.

There were a lot of challenges.

There was a lot of fun.

Then we went to the sauna and I made the mistake to roll a joint with some really strong weed.

And I think I must've smoked mostly by myself.

She might've had like one toe.

Anyway,

I really spiraled down.

Like I really started spiraling down like so much energy,

So much sensation in my system that I couldn't ground it.

Like yeah,

Like there was a lot of moments where I just fully lost my grounding,

Fully lost my focus.

I was just useless.

And I went to all these negative things and I kept sharing about it to her.

Like I kept letting her in,

Into my experience.

And there was some really beautiful moments.

Like there was like,

I called myself feeling some really,

Really like deep fear coming from somewhere.

I went on and just voicing it.

Then I just started to laugh and like kind of got on top of the fear.

And then I cried,

I had a huge release and I cried and felt really great,

But they just kept coming like one after the other.

And I just couldn't stay on top.

And I just lost my grounding.

And I was just like in fear safe for like an hour.

And I was just judging myself here.

I'm with this beautiful woman in a sauna.

We're tripping.

There's warm water.

There's a lake.

It's the most best time.

And I'm in this fear state.

So I was like judging myself for all that.

And I just judged myself to be weak and like useless and all that.

Like it was really harsh for myself at some times or like,

I was just like,

You know,

Having really negative thoughts of myself for being a little bitch basically.

But then like,

She still loved me.

She still just accepted me as I am and saw me in my fullness.

And like,

It just felt really good to be received.

And yeah,

Cause I had this story like,

Okay,

If I'm like this,

Like no one wants to be with me.

Or if someone sees this side of myself,

Me like,

Why would anyone love me?

But then just still receiving her full heart and appreciation and respect.

I'm glad you had that experience.

Do you mind sharing with us a couple of months ago?

I think we were talking about that word useless.

Cause that's like,

I mean,

If you don't mind me going into it.

It's basically like your biggest fear,

This adjective being useless,

Right?

How has your relationship with uselessness been?

Yeah,

That's a good question.

Because that kind of encapsulates this first idea that we were talking about.

Like when you're useless,

You're losing the outer game.

Whatever the outer game is,

Whatever the thing,

If you're useless,

You literally are not winning.

Yeah.

How has that been for you?

Yeah.

Well,

That trip,

For example,

That was definitely a process in that.

And then like,

Also like owning that and coming out of that and being like,

All right.

Like I still,

After that,

Like I came to a place where it's like,

I'm okay with that.

Like I'm okay with what just happened.

Like I'm so yeah.

So like that felt healing.

There was some moments there's been like,

Yeah.

So we had that one coaching session where you,

Where I opened this thing up to you and received some mentoring and you gave me this sentence of like,

What was it again?

Like how can I get off of being useless right now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that was like,

Really,

That was such a cool thing.

Yeah.

I brought it into,

I'm not just saying how deep do I want to go into this or how easily can I help?

Yeah.

Well,

I'll just share,

I mean,

Just for context,

Like,

You know,

And even regarding this whole self-help thing,

A lot of people are constantly trying to find problems or recreating problems themselves to have something to work on kind of thing.

Like I like the perspective that personal development is just a genre of entertainment.

Like some people spend their time watching football and learn all about football.

Some people like,

You know,

Family dramas,

Whatever.

I don't know.

I don't know what's on TV these days.

Some people like the story of their own lives.

And you know,

In,

I like movies with brooding male protagonists that have like troubles and like,

You know,

They're useless sometimes.

I don't know if you've ever,

Have you seen Californication?

Anyway,

The guy is useless.

Like he's a really cool,

Dark writer who can never get himself to write.

And he's always just like being a bum basically,

But it's really entertaining.

And his life seems really fun,

But he's also troubled.

He's troubled by the fact that he's kind of useless.

So I don't remember if I was thinking this when we were talking about that then,

But this is just coming up now.

Like there is something fun if you can just play your life like a drama,

You're going to have shitty episodes.

And that actually sometimes are the most interesting.

For sure.

Okay.

Being completely,

Bluntly honest,

I'm not fully on top of that yet.

I'm not fully on top of that yet.

There's been like very powerful moments where I'm with like some of the same women that she came up with.

And like I did that thing,

Like,

I don't know if you remember,

But there was this thing of meeting one of the lovers that who some of that shit got triggered up with me.

And I was really in that state,

I was like,

Yeah,

Like I was smiling and confident.

I was confident.

And I was just like,

Yeah,

I'm useless.

I was just in my head.

I'm like,

Yeah,

I'm useless right now.

I'm fine with that.

Like,

Yeah,

I'm sure I'm not attractive right now.

And just kind of being okay with all that.

But I think there's still a part of me that like doesn't trust or like the part of me is still that things I'm going to die if I'm useless.

Like I won't receive love.

I won't,

Yeah,

Just be a useless piece of shit and excluded from the community and die.

Like I still,

That inner child still needs tending I think.

Yeah.

And that's where a lot of it comes from.

You know,

It's like the survival instinct of if you were in a small tribe of 150 people and people saw you as useless,

You might get kicked out.

You might get kicked out and then actually die on the desert or for you the ice.

You can get that,

Right?

Or just like wounds of the inner child.

I don't know.

Because when you're a baby,

That's also true.

Like if your parents or your family chooses to decide that you're not worthy of love,

Like how long are you going to survive for?

You're dead.

You're dead.

Yeah.

Well,

Of course,

You know,

That's not actually true.

Yeah,

There's something about like what audience you care of because you said the community,

Right?

I assume there's a specific group of people that you identify with,

You're attached to or,

You know.

So their opinions do in some way matter.

You know,

If they all hated you,

That would be a very different experience that they all loved you.

Even though it is technically outer game,

It's important.

Not to say outer game isn't important ever actually.

But then there's something to like the attachments and the fallacy that it actually,

You know,

Determines your survival.

Like you're obviously your emotional reaction doesn't line up with the reality.

No,

Not if not.

Yeah.

You know,

I mean,

For me,

Because this was like a cool thing to think about when you messaged me this idea because I've been thinking about it a lot myself.

Like I think having a child soon triggered a lot of things because like now I've been thinking a lot like,

What is my kid going to think about who I am in the world?

What's my kid going to think about my sex cult memoir?

Do I even want like my child,

Like my daughter to be reading this book where I was like,

Oh fuck,

Like it's like,

You know,

My child doesn't even exist yet.

I won't learn to read for a long time,

But it gets in my head of like,

This is a new audience that I now give a shit about,

Right?

Like five years ago,

I didn't care about anything,

Right?

Like I was like,

Kind of F you to everyone,

Except for like the people that validated me,

Which was like another kind of,

You know,

It's just one reality.

So anyway,

I think this is just an interesting topic because I think you just said a few minutes ago,

Some part of you doesn't trust.

If you're losing the outer games,

Did you say the word trust?

I'm going to.

.

.

I think I did.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I mean,

That is the ultimate thing of like,

Faith is really the only answer.

When you trust that if you're doing everything right by yourself,

Your outsides will eventually match,

Even if you're getting rejected today.

Yeah.

So what do you think of having experiences like I did with this one woman that I have a beautiful relationship with and like having that experience of getting that outside validation,

Even when I went through something that I judged to be useless,

Like do you see that as like a quote unquote healthy way to.

.

.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I mean,

Because I mean,

All of our inner game tendencies were programmed into us.

Well,

Maybe that's not always true,

But for the most part,

Right?

Like self-worth stuff,

Childhood,

Who knows where it originated from.

Like I would say like,

What a cool episode of your life story of your TV show where like you dove really deep into an insecurity and everything turned out okay.

And that's kind of like how a lot of TV shows end.

Like there's just like,

Oh,

Something really sucks.

It turns out everything was actually okay,

Which is the moral.

So I just think it's like a great piece of programming for your inner game that,

You know,

Next time you're beating yourself up about something,

You just remember,

Wait,

People still love me even at my worst.

Everything's cool.

And then,

Yeah,

You don't lose yourself so often.

I would hope.

Yeah.

And even noticing like,

I might be the only one who's like doing that judgment.

Yeah.

And the truth is,

There probably,

I mean,

You're going to meet people that actually judge you,

But which reality do you care about?

This person you care about who you're very intimate with or this other person,

You know?

And I guess the ultimate sign that you've overcome this insecurity is if you can be in a situation like you had in Asana,

She could not validate you because maybe she's insecure herself and you're actually okay.

Like that would be a sign,

You know?

Yeah,

Totally.

It may or may not happen next time,

But it will happen eventually.

Yeah,

For sure.

And I do feel,

I do feel really confident in the fact that I have,

I still do have so much love for myself and I still have so much trust in myself and like I'm really on my own team a lot.

So I think that's not,

Like,

It's not very far from being able to happen in that scenario.

Yeah.

And I think it's good.

Like if you're a coach,

I think it's important.

Like if you were super duper secure,

It would be hard for you to relate to the next person.

Like if you didn't have anything like this,

You know?

Like even this recent experience I had where like I felt insecurities that I haven't felt a long time.

Now that they've basically passed,

I'm like,

Yeah,

Okay,

Next time someone is really in a hole,

I can just identify with it easier.

So yeah,

It's just a great,

It's a good thing.

Totally.

Yeah.

I had the same realization because one of my recent clients is like dealing with the same things and he even asked me like,

Well,

Wait,

Where do you stand with like your self-worth and how do you,

How do you go about that?

And I was like,

Yeah,

Just share that.

Like,

Yeah,

I'm not done.

Like I'm not,

Like,

I still have work to do there,

But like it means I'm more in touch with that stuff.

And you know,

I'm,

All that stuff is more fresh in me than if I never have never thought of the whole concept or something.

Yeah.

It's better to be one step or two steps,

Like ahead,

Quote unquote,

You know,

Like than 10 steps,

20 steps.

Well,

Yeah,

Whatever it is,

It's like just knowing the experience firsthand,

Not like on an intellectual level.

Like,

You know,

I had a friend who's,

His girlfriend is a psychologist or something,

She's a therapist,

I don't know,

Something like that,

And her company wants her to take a life coaching certification.

So she was asking,

He was introducing her to me like,

Oh,

You're a coach,

Can you tell her about like how to learn coaching?

Like what did you learn?

What did you study?

And I'm like,

This is a very different thing in that,

You know,

Not,

I mean,

Not just,

They're just different ways of helping people,

But a coach's education is like actually doing stuff,

Going into holes and confronting stuff.

I'm trying not to say this in a way that is like arrogant,

Which I mean,

It's just,

But like it's different.

Like we,

Your ammunition and your credentials isn't from study necessarily,

Although reading is great.

It's like through experiencing things and knowing that you've gone through it.

Totally.

Yeah,

There was a joke I was told,

I mean,

One of the,

From one of my mentor teachers,

People,

It was,

It was an unfunny joke.

I don't know,

I'll say,

I don't know if it's going to land,

But it's like a man falls in a hole and he's like,

Help,

Help.

You know,

I'm stuck in this hole.

I can't get out.

And a psychiatrist comes by and it's like,

Oh,

Tell me how you feel.

And it's like,

Oh,

This sucks.

I'm in a hole.

And he's like,

Okay,

Well,

Let's talk about it for like a few years and we'll see where your parents fucked you up.

And then,

And then we'll see what happens.

It's like,

Well,

That can get me out of the hole.

And he's like,

No,

No,

But you know,

We'll,

We'll,

We'll have a bit deeper understanding.

So he leaves and then a priest comes by and the guy's like,

Help,

Help.

I need to get out of the hole and the priest is like,

We'll say 40 Hail Marys.

And then,

You know,

We'll see.

And he's like,

Oh,

Will that get me out of the hole?

No,

No,

But you'll be closer to God or something.

He walks by and then,

Then a coach comes by and the coach jumps in the hole with him.

And then the guy's like,

Well,

Why the fuck did you do that?

Like now we're both in the hole and the coach says,

Yeah,

But I've been here before and I know how to get out.

And yeah,

Anyway,

I don't know if that,

I mean,

It's not really a funny joke,

But anyway,

Yeah.

I laughed.

No,

But yeah,

That's definitely like,

Yeah.

Especially like,

Like if we were to compare like therapist and coach.

Yeah.

Or like,

I mean,

I mean,

In reality,

We don't even need to jump into that hole because you know,

It's another way up.

We'll just like kill them the steps or ask them the right questions or whatever.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I really,

I really love how,

Like I've only had,

How many sessions have I had with you?

Like when I talk about you,

I refer to like,

Yeah,

One of my,

He's one of my,

He's one of my mentors.

Like that's how I refer to you.

Cause I've like,

You're the only podcast I listen to by the way.

Like I don't listen to it.

Like I've listened to so much,

Like I listened to a lot of your stuff,

But yeah,

Even the few sessions we've had,

Like have been really impactful.

So yeah.

Anyway,

Where's it going with this?

Yeah.

Like I love in your coaching,

How you,

You keep it really simple with like,

You just ask really powerful questions,

Which is like,

There's been,

I remember many times where I'm just like,

Yeah,

Something,

And I just start laughing because it hits something like,

Yeah.

Thanks man.

I think,

You know,

Oh,

This is actually something you messaged me earlier about like being ahead of your client or something.

Like,

Any,

I'll just,

You know,

What I shared with you then,

Which I think is relevant is,

It's actually helped me,

I think with coaching is not trying to even be more advanced.

Like if I really believe that the client has all the answers,

Like,

I don't know what's,

I mean,

All I'm trying to do is ask questions to get them to answer their own questions or like come up with their own genius.

It just takes all the pressure off of me.

And then coaching sessions can be really easy and chill and like,

Cause I don't have to come up with anything.

Like I'm just,

He's actually,

You know,

He or she is themselves.

So yeah,

Anyway,

I thought that that's,

It just makes things simpler.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At this moment,

Like last week where I was doing some really,

Like I was taking a client to like some really deep murky shadows and it was like,

Yeah,

We really went to some nasty waters and I was like,

Holy shit,

Like,

How do I bring it back up to light?

Like there was a moment where like,

Okay,

We're just,

We're really deep right now.

Like,

And I was like,

I was trying to do my input to,

Okay,

Like,

Okay,

We're like 50 minutes in,

In the session,

Like,

Okay,

Let's start guiding this back to like light and integrating the new belief,

Whatever.

Wasn't happening.

And then I was like,

There was just a point where it's like,

Okay,

I'm going to stop trying and I'm just going to follow him.

Kind of.

And it was interesting.

As soon as I dropped the pressure of like,

I need to do something for this to land where we want this to land.

And just more like,

Yeah,

I don't know how to avoid it.

I don't know.

I kind of let him leave.

I just followed what was there.

And I don't even know what I did,

But for sure what I did was I got the fucking worry and I was like,

I just trusted.

I had faith and somehow the things he gave his input was exactly the direction.

I was like,

Okay,

Like I want to start anchoring,

Like new affirmations or like bring in some,

Some of the positive stuff.

Like that's what I was trying to do.

As soon as I stopped trying to do that,

It just happened naturally.

And there was this thing of like,

Yeah,

It's kind of ties into what you just said.

I think.

Yeah.

I mean,

It's just,

It's just like,

It's another inner game,

Outer game thing,

Or it's like being with a woman.

Like if you're trying to force something to happen,

You're always going to fall off,

Fall off the stroke,

Off the vibe,

You know?

But if you,

Yeah,

If you're in the moment,

If you're feeling the other person,

It kind of just develops.

Yeah.

This,

This brings me up to topic.

This was like a week ago as well.

I don't understand what's happening.

Yeah.

So,

So I've been working with one client on like being more straightforward,

Being more upfront,

Being more like stating his desire and just being more like,

Boom,

You know,

With women,

Be more direct,

You know,

For,

For going for what he wants and stating what he wants and whatnot.

And yeah,

So apparently he had been doing this with one woman and yeah,

Like this,

I think this was true messenger or something like voice messages or whatnot.

Anyway,

Then he told me like about the woman kind of pulling,

Pulling back.

And when he started like breaking down what he had said,

Like I instantly noticed like,

Okay,

Yeah,

He was being straightforward,

But just this,

This fine line,

Right.

Yeah.

I find it's important just for ourselves,

But also for the other game to be straightforward and upfront and honest and just owning our truth.

But it's also so important for the woman to feel like she doesn't have any pressure.

There's no expectation like for her to not have to ask herself a question that she can answer yes or no to,

But you know,

Yeah,

Like being,

Being upfront and honest and direct,

But for her to still be able to feel and not have pressure and,

You know,

Flow and not,

You know,

Putting her up against the wall,

Like too strongly or too soon or something like that.

And it was like,

Just realizing like,

Then the client was like,

Fuck,

Like this is so complicated,

But then we had to laugh about it and integrate that,

But it just felt like sharing this.

Well,

What I say,

I think this is a thing that a lot of guys think about,

Or anything that comes up a lot with exactly what you're sharing,

Right?

Like you want to tell the truth.

You want to be honest.

What if it doesn't line up right?

And the opposite would be,

Oh,

Figure out what she wants and then like deliver that,

You know,

And both of those things are denying the importance of connection.

This might not always be true,

But I do think it's very often true in intimacy and even in things like sales or stuff like that.

Like if you and the other person are really connected,

So you're feeling each other and empathizing,

You'll probably want almost the same thing.

Like with your client that you're mentioning,

Like if he was really feeling the woman and connecting with the woman,

What he genuinely wanted would probably be a lot closer to what she also wanted,

As opposed to like,

Here's what I want,

Like,

Here's my dick,

What's going on or whatever,

You know,

It's like,

Here's like,

You know,

Not just sticking it there,

But like,

You know,

Because you're kind of merging as two people and like,

What do we want in a moment?

Which yeah,

I mean,

I think that is also winning the inner game in an intimate situation or anything involving another person.

Yeah,

No,

I totally agree.

That's a good point.

I think in this situation,

It was more like he was wanting to connect more.

So it's like,

Or he was,

I think he was expressing that the nature of connection that he'd like,

But yeah,

Absolutely.

Like if you're more connected,

That will just leave the two people involved more on the same page.

But what I told him was like,

What did I tell him?

Yeah,

About like expressing what you want,

But making it really crystal clear,

I'm not expecting anything.

I'm not,

I'm not like,

Like,

I'm still open and willing to be in a place where there's no expectation and a curiosity and presence,

But this is what's like me.

Yeah,

Because to have expectations is now putting,

I mean,

You're no longer playing the inner game.

You're not expressing yourself for the sake of expressing yourself or expressing yourself to get something else which sets you up to lose.

Yeah,

Actually,

You know,

Because I,

You know,

Back to this like self-help,

Some self-help traps,

Like one of the reasons why I try not to use the word vulnerability anymore is I've noticed a lot of people,

They're not being genuinely vulnerable.

They're just saying embarrassing things about themselves because our culture now champions vulnerability,

And especially in the personal development world,

And vulnerability is obviously a good thing,

But then people are being vulnerable with the ex,

They're doing it to get something external.

They're doing it to be loved or pitied or validated or something as opposed to just like,

You know,

What actually needs to be communicated.

Yeah,

Man.

Like I almost raised this point earlier,

You mentioned vulnerability in some context,

Maybe 10 minutes ago,

And because I've really resonated with what you,

Like the insights you shared on that in the,

I don't know,

Recent months,

On like why you stopped using the word vulnerability especially with that,

Because I think it's a necessary step,

Right?

Like it will probably like,

For,

Let's say for a man who's used to hiding everything or acting tough or whatever,

Like the step of being vulnerable,

You know,

It will probably involve like,

They'll feel like their experience,

Like,

Okay,

Like this could fuck me up somehow,

Right?

Like,

But like,

Like I think the point you were also making was like landing in a place where it's not vulnerable.

It's nothing to do with vulnerability.

It's just like that master mentality of like,

Yeah,

This is what's alive in me.

Boom.

Like that's it.

Right?

Yeah.

And someone,

Someone might,

Oh,

Like that's vulnerable.

Like I've had moments like that recently where I just share something off myself and I'm so confident in my reality and it's something that would be labeled as vulnerable normally,

But then someone points it out to me and I'm just like,

Yeah,

Well actually it didn't even feel vulnerable,

You know?

But it was just like,

That was just my truth in that moment.

And I just feel quite relaxed actually just sharing that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause I guess you kind of,

You kind of know that you're socially free,

If you will,

If you can say these so-called vulnerable things and it doesn't feel vulnerable anymore because you don't really care so much about what other people will judge you on.

Like that's really the goal of it.

That's the point of sharing these things that maybe previously were ashamed of to drop the shame not to be validated for how shitty you feel now,

Because you said an embarrassing thing,

You know?

And like that ties to like reality dominance,

Another thing that I've learned from you,

Right?

Like,

Yeah,

If I'm just in the reality,

Like where we're just confident,

This is,

This is whatever,

And I'm sharing something,

It's,

That's my reality,

Right?

Like it's not vulnerable.

It's not whatever they think it's not soft or weak or whatever the fuck it's like,

No,

This is lying.

This is like me just being myself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know the thing about master slave stuff that you want to talk about,

Right?

Yeah.

Maybe I'm just like really curious about that.

Like that,

That topic just feels really important.

Really like really core stuff for being in your power.

Right?

Like how,

If we perceive the world through either of those lenses is a huge difference,

Right?

So,

And I haven't,

I hadn't heard of that concept anywhere else then through you.

So yeah,

I think somewhere where I noticed that is like,

Yeah,

I sometimes catch myself thinking like,

Oh,

I have to do this or,

Or whatnot.

I guess I'm just curious,

Like,

What are your ways to your,

I don't know.

Practices to,

To strengthen your master mentality.

Well,

For me,

The biggest thing,

Well,

The less I'm on screens and the more I'm on paper,

The more I'm automatically in that mode.

You know,

I've gotten off of social media for the most part and that's just not to villainize social media.

I know you're,

You're,

You've been posting cool stuff.

But you know,

I'll just put it this way.

Like the more I can introspect and really care about what I think about me or what I'm doing,

You know,

Cause we,

A lot of our reality has to come from some perception of like group feeling,

Right?

So it's like either you and yourself or you and like people that follow you on the internet or whatever,

Like the more I can care about what I actually,

It is ultimately intergame stuff again.

Like what am I doing and feeling what I,

What is important rather than what I think I'll get validated for.

Okay.

I have a juicy twist to this because the,

Where I'm usually experienced this,

It's like with my mission,

With my purpose,

With my business,

Like,

You know,

When I'm,

When I'm in the flow,

I can get so much stuff done.

Or like I can be like a bull.

I can work around the clock,

Build my course,

Whatever.

And it feels good.

It's like the most satisfying feeling.

And then like,

I think what has happened,

I do that three weeks in a row and then I'm wrecked,

But I still want to keep going.

I still want to keep pursuing.

Like I'm in that masculine,

Super masculine state of just going forward.

And then I think I might go out of juice,

But a part of me just wants to keep pursuing the goal,

You know,

Keep,

Keep going.

Whereas there's the other part that wants rest and just wants to chill and just does,

There's no creative choose or whatever.

I think that's when I go into slavery where it's like,

I need to keep going.

You know,

That's,

That's your boss.

Your boss is forcing you to work.

Yeah.

Who happens to be you.

Yeah,

I know I could relate to that a lot.

I think a lot of things that haven't felt good with my work have also come from that exact thing of like,

Oh,

I put out X number of podcasts this month,

Which means I need to do that again this month,

But I don't feel like it.

And then it becomes like a job basically.

I mean,

It is something I'm trying,

It challenges me still,

But one perspective that has helped me is actually coming from fitness,

The fitness worlds.

Pablo Salsoulin,

Who I really love his stuff.

I really love his stuff.

If he started a cult,

I would join it still.

But he's got,

He has a lot of things on this.

Like,

No one who's a high performer has a personal record every time.

Like that would be impossible.

The only people who are consistent are people who are really at a low level.

Right?

So if you're doing anything of importance,

And then,

You know,

He's talking about like how much weight you can push in a workout for example.

Like if you're actually doing anything beyond mediocre,

There's no way you're going to sustain that all the time.

That's not how the human body works when it comes to strength.

I don't think that's what,

I think strength and creativity,

I think a lot of the principles really line up.

And you know,

One of the things in that kettlebell world that's big is every week you should,

It's called the Delta 20 principle.

You should vary how much work you do,

Like physically by 20% up or down.

It has some sort of great benefit when it comes to muscle growth and all that stuff.

And you know,

When you're describing this,

Like being in the flow versus you need to rest after three weeks,

That might be,

You know,

If you actually listen to that,

It might be exactly what you need to get creative muscle stronger.

And you know,

Who are you to fuck with that process?

That's,

Yeah,

Exactly.

That's what I've taken from it recently.

And yeah,

Yeah.

But it's funny because there's a part that's just like,

Fuck that,

Like fuck resting.

Like I have a mission,

I want to proceed it,

But now I'm re-learning that that's the best thing for proceeding that mission is to actually rest or do things that charge me up or,

You know,

Focus on my wellbeing and all that.

And like yesterday,

For example,

Like the moment that like Sunday,

Right?

Like the moment I really kicked back and was like,

Okay,

I'm going to really chill.

I got the most insights,

The most downloads,

The most clearest action plan steps for,

For my course and whatnot.

Like as soon as I was like dropped it,

Then,

Then I had mad ideas.

This came true.

And it's kind of,

Well,

And I didn't rest then anyway,

But yeah.

Because the question is like,

If you feel like you need to still go hard when you don't feel like it,

Like who are you doing it for?

Or like what,

What,

What end are you doing it for?

Are you doing it because people,

Your friends or people would be impressed as you go hard every week,

52 weeks a year,

Is it to compare yourself to some ideal Mishka that you feel like you should be,

You know,

All of those things are taking you further away from yourself,

Which is what that relationship is needed for that inspiration and stuff.

But I would,

I do want to poke at one thing you just said.

It's a recent realization for me of like the purpose of presence or winning the inner game or following your internal flow is not productivity,

Right?

I mean,

I'm guilty of this too.

Like,

Oh yeah,

I have to,

I have to be Zen or I have to be present so that I am more productive.

Like that actually is just switching it again.

Like now you're,

Now you're pimping your own inner game to get outward results.

It's like the same thing.

It's like you're making the master serve the slave morality,

You know,

Which is not the point.

Like the point is something more intrinsic,

Like the satisfaction of doing the work you want to do on a work day and doing the chilling you want to do on a chill day,

I would think.

Yeah,

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just sometimes,

Like I get high a couple of times a week-ish and sometimes when I get high,

I just get like,

I don't know,

Man,

My third eye just opens up,

Bro.

I just get down,

Whatever you want to call it.

But like,

Yeah,

I get some creative inspiration sometimes and I just start writing it down and it doesn't even feel like work,

You know?

Yeah.

I mean,

When I'm in the flow,

Work doesn't feel like work at all.

Yeah.

I think on an ultimate ideal level,

And I don't know how possible this is all the time.

Like if you're really in master morality though,

Nothing should feel like work.

Exactly.

You know?

Even if you have a job where you actually have to do something that most,

Even if you have like a manual labor job,

If you're really in that,

Which maybe is a high ideal to reach,

Like even that shouldn't feel like work.

If you really take the,

I mean,

This is the perspective I always fall in when I'm on mushrooms or LSD,

Like I'm just here to play in reality and enjoy this movie,

Right?

It doesn't matter what we're doing.

Anything,

Any job,

Any task can be interesting from like that movie perspective.

It's hard to stay in that mode all the time,

But it's what I try to stay in.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Super powerful and important things to be aware of and then have the awareness of like the concept of master-slave morality.

Good shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because like the ultimate,

I mean,

The reason why it's even called master morality is that if you really were a Lord over a land,

You have all your needs met,

You don't have to accomplish anything.

You are the highest validator of the social realms.

Like there's no one's approval you need.

You really just do whatever you feel like doing.

Which doesn't mean you're lazy,

But it's like,

If you want wood,

You chop a tree,

But you don't do it because people will like you for chopping the tree or they think you should chop the tree,

For instance.

You know,

You just,

Yeah.

You're playing.

Yeah.

I think I can't remember what podcast and maybe you were chatting with your friend Noel Free.

I don't know how his name is pronounced that correct.

Yeah,

Noel Free.

Cool.

So yeah,

I think you were talking about like,

Yeah,

Like the things we do to relax or enjoy usually like are like slave morality things like smashing food and like numbing out.

Like that was like,

Hmm,

Right.

Like master morality things you do challenging shit.

Like you just do stuff that's like challenging because it's fun.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Yeah.

I mean,

You only seek to do nothing and lay on the beach and do nothing if your normal existence kind of sucks.

Like if you're working a slave job all the time,

Of course you want to do nothing because the stuff you have to do,

You have to do.

But yeah,

If you're the Lord of the land and like,

You know,

Food is being created for you,

You don't have to do anything.

Like what do you do for fun?

You go hunting,

You fight in wars,

You,

I don't know,

Whatever,

You know,

Feudal Lords did back then.

That's what they actually did for fun.

So yeah,

And I've just been finding like in myself,

I really don't like,

Yeah,

I really don't like doing nothing.

Like my favorite social activities involve some effort.

And those are the teams that seem to be the people I'm more drawn to these days.

So yeah.

Totally.

Hey,

I had a cool topic thing come and it ties to self-worth.

It ties to the fact that you're becoming a father and it really ties to some of the self-worth stuff,

Which is recently I've realized like,

Well,

First of all,

Yeah.

So I've been noticing like these impulses or like,

Hold and things of,

Yeah,

Like this,

This,

This spot,

Like my father inside me is like starting to wake up.

Like I'm noticing,

I'm looking at women or my lovers in a different way,

Or like there's this urges to create nests,

To create,

You know,

To have a baby,

Basically.

Like I'm not,

I don't like,

I don't want to on all levels yet for sure,

But like,

It's never been this,

It's never felt this real.

And it's,

I think it comes from a place of really recognizing like,

I will be ready.

Like I'll be mentally,

Physically,

And now even like starting to be financially ready.

Like,

Okay,

I could provide for someone both levels.

And that's the new thing.

Cause I've always been born a kid and now it's like,

Wait,

Now,

Like if someone actually told me they're pregnant,

Like I could actually handle that with like,

And not just like get by,

But like I would be able to do that with,

You know,

With a straight spine sort of thing.

And yeah,

Yeah,

That's felt scary.

That's felt good.

But I've really noticed,

Like,

I think that really that's such a source of,

Of,

Of self-work somehow like the,

The,

The capacity or like for me at least,

Like I've noticed and I've talked with,

Talked about this with some people,

Like yeah,

Like how ready we feel,

Like how capable we feel to,

To create life and provide and all that naturally would tie a lot to like how we perceive our self worth.

What do you think?

Yeah,

For sure.

I mean,

Well,

There's also some people who have children because they have nothing else to do or like they,

That's like their source of love.

I'm sure,

You know,

All of us know someone like this who maybe they,

Their life is their kid because,

And they had a kid cause they didn't know what else to do with themselves.

A little different,

But yeah,

I do think,

You know,

Especially for men,

Obviously not everyone wants children,

But when you've basically solved your own problems or your own lacks or,

You know,

Whatever inadequacies you felt and you feel secure on those levels that you mentioned,

Like what do you do with yourself?

It's kind of like the master thing.

It's like,

You don't have to worry about food.

Well,

It is actually fun to go hunting.

Like you don't have to worry about,

You know,

Making my own,

Making your own personal rent or what to do with your life.

Have you answered those questions or what do you do for fun?

Well,

It actually would be fun to provide for someone.

Like what else?

Like what other challenge,

You know,

You need a challenge to be interested,

You know,

Whereas,

You know,

I don't want it to come off as judgmental,

But like some people I know who are like definitely against having children.

I actually,

Let me not even put it that way because it's coming out the wrong way.

Yeah.

It's just,

It's an opportunity to take on a new challenge,

Which is fun for someone in a master morality view that,

Yeah,

I could do whatever I want and I want to do something for fun that's gonna challenge me.

And I think it's probably deeply rooted,

You know,

In our fucking DNA core of like,

You know,

Passing on our genes.

Yeah.

Like what is,

Yeah,

What is the,

There's nothing more primal,

Like all of our behaviors are for this anyway,

Which is not to say that you have to do what they,

What our selfish genes want,

But yeah,

I mean,

Of course there's a satisfaction in it.

One more thing about the master morality,

Which is kind of,

I think ties to a lot of the shit that I was talking about in the start of like,

So master morality,

Like you're,

You're on top of everything.

You can do whatever,

Like what if,

Like,

What if you fuck up?

What if you do things that get you out of that place?

Like let me see how the footage works.

Like,

Cause I have this thing,

Right?

Like where there's a part of me believes that I'm only lovable when I'm on top.

And I think when I'm in that place,

I probably am a lot in the master mentality.

But then a part of me is like,

Yeah,

If I,

If I do shit that's useless or a week or I fuck up some way,

I will,

Yeah.

Well first of all,

Probably,

Do you get what I'm,

Do you get what I'm referring to?

Basically what I'm asking is like the master,

Would the master morality still not be scared of losing its spot basically?

Maybe.

Okay.

I think there's a couple questions there,

But well,

I guess,

I mean,

If we look at it in the most basic,

Like we actually look at like the sociological level before we make it like relevant to us,

Like I guess,

All right,

If we're taking the scenario,

You're a feudal lord and you can do something that would have you lose your position,

Well,

Yeah,

Of course he would care,

Right?

Someone in that position would care.

He wouldn't want to do something,

Which is why I think like the nobility or like people in those positions and historically really instilled certain values in their children,

Like honor and being brave and stuff.

Like they did not want to lose that position.

And they perhaps earned that position by embodying these characteristics of strength.

But as far as us in like reality,

Right,

These are all metaphors.

I guess it would come down to if you actually believe you would lose your spot from taking risks.

Like to be risk averse obviously wouldn't,

I guess like,

Are you willing to die on the battlefields while doing the right thing?

Did you catch my thing where I spoke about the Game of Thrones moments where the Taras at least die?

Did you catch that?

Yeah,

I mean,

Yeah,

It's like they were choosing to die in the name of being noble.

Like they were,

I mean,

You can't lose the outer game more than dying,

Right?

Like they're choosing to die,

But they were making the big balls move of like,

No,

I will not bend the knee.

I'm going to die with my dignity intact,

Which yeah,

I mean,

There's nothing more masterful than that.

It was a really interesting point that like cultures where men would die,

Like honor deaths,

Like yeah,

They wouldn't pass on their genes,

But they'd be passing on the gene pool of that moral code and that those societies actually stayed intact and strong and the ones where that didn't happen,

Probably die out.

Like that's a really interesting point.

And it is hard,

You know,

If you're thinking like,

Okay,

I'm,

You know,

Yeah,

My people will survive,

But I'm going to die.

Like you have to have a different worldview.

You know,

You have to really be out of your ego,

I guess,

To like choose to be one of the sperm that didn't make it.

But anyway,

That's,

I mean,

We're talking like kind of extremes,

I guess,

In your personal life.

It really just comes down to like,

I guess it's more,

Do you trust yourself to bounce back after a loss?

Or do you feel like you need to be perfect?

Like will one loss or one mess up or one moment of insecurity even mean that you're no longer cool in your own eyes?

Like if you think that's true,

Your masterfulness will never be secure.

It'll always be,

Yeah,

I mean,

You're going to have to come up with some point.

So,

Yeah.

Well,

I think that ties it down.

Like are you willing to take risks?

Are you willing to die in battle type of thing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool,

Man.

It was good stuff to think about.

I mean,

This is definitely stuff I've been pondering in myself,

Like this inner outer game stuff and you know,

How literally to take master morality.

Yeah,

I think these are good reminders for myself as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool,

Man.

Yeah,

It was fun catching up.

Is there anything you want to share to everyone?

Where to catch you?

You can find me with my name on Instagram,

Facebook.

And yeah.

Yeah,

I'm still like kind of,

I still have a lot of things I could talk about to be honest.

No,

No,

No,

We can get into another thing.

I need to go in maybe 10,

15.

But we can get into another thing for sure.

Yeah.

Like,

Well,

It kind of came when we were talking about,

You know,

The instinct and desire to pass on our genes and create family and whatever.

And you said that's the most primal thing.

Well,

I already mentioned like this topic of ejaculation,

Ejaculation,

The troll and that.

And yeah,

Like just,

You know,

That's a very primal instinct to ejaculate,

Right?

Yeah,

I just felt like talking about that,

That topic.

And yeah,

Obviously you have arousal of course.

And yeah,

I think it's a very important topic for us men.

Like what do we do with that instinct and how are we the slaves of that?

Or are we the master of that?

And yeah,

I kind of just feel like opening up that discussion a little bit.

I've had quite a journey with that whole concept myself and all that.

Yeah.

You were sharing that you find it's easier to be in control when you're like a more receptive situation?

Maybe.

Yeah.

I mean,

I don't know if that's exactly what I've noticed.

Well,

Basically what I've noticed is like during this year,

Like starting this summer specifically,

Like I've been getting more into like power play,

Like taking and then like BDSM sort of stuff with my lovers and partners.

And that's been really fun.

Like that's been really fun.

And even like,

I think I heard about this non-ejaculation stuff like three,

Four years ago and I got really into that in many ways to a point where I started having shame and guilt if I'd come,

Which is kind of fucked up.

But this summer I really healed a lot of that.

Like I allowed myself to come as much as I want and like,

Yeah,

I was doing a lot of kinky stuff,

Role-play and all this other things.

Like maybe a month or two ago I started noticing,

Okay,

It's time to start getting back on top of circulating that energy and all that.

Cause I started feeling depleted because I was coming too much.

Basically what I've noticed is like,

I don't know if it's about being receptive,

But there is more of an element of flow and I'm really living with my partner and like melting with her.

That's when I can make love for a long time and have orgasms without coming and not need to ejaculate.

But when I'm,

Cause yeah,

I think you've also talked about this in some of your podcasts about like dominating in bed and doing all that.

And it's fun.

It's great.

And it can have many levels and give me really healing,

You know,

To be in that dynamic for like,

I've seen my lovers have really healing experiences.

Like they've cried after like,

You know,

In a dynamic where I'm dominating and all that.

Where am I going with this?

But yeah,

When I'm more in that space,

When I'm doing it's so hard to circulate my sexual energy.

I almost always have to ejaculate if I'm doing power play.

And I'm wondering how is that?

Yeah.

I mean,

I definitely notice if I'm trying to do too much or if I go in my head obviously,

Or if I'm trying to have given experience.

I know this would happen often actually when I was like in a BDSM situation,

Even with my fiance now,

This has happened before where I'm like so focused in giving an experience that I kind of lose touch with my body.

And even for a moment,

If the sensation is high,

Of course,

Right?

The flow is lost,

Right?

As opposed to when you're talking about flowing with your partner,

It sounds like you've really taken away all the goals or like you need to accomplish something.

That's what I would think.

Yeah,

And also,

I mean,

You mentioned a lot of things just there.

Of course,

It's an instinct to come because that's how procreation occurs.

But I think on a biological level,

If you don't mind getting a little sciencey,

It's like that is your body willing to sacrifice your wellbeing for your child's wellbeing.

But for not having children is kind of a waste.

Not to say that coming isn't good,

But that's the reason why we kind of suppress the instant at times.

It's fun to be in that hunter mode.

Anyway,

Yeah,

You know what I'm talking about.

Yeah,

I think that's a good point you're making there.

And it's kind of funny,

Right?

Like on the outside,

We're dominating our partners or like we're taking.

But then the point you're raising,

Which often can be true,

I notice this in myself,

Is like actually a lot of my attention goes to giving her experience.

So this is quite contradictory.

So I mean,

It's not like it's always like that.

But I can definitely,

Yeah,

You can go there at times.

Yeah,

I mean,

It kind of goes back to this whole thing we've been talking about.

Like if you're really in the inner game,

If you're really trying to play the inner game there,

You're only doing what feels good in that moment.

Ideally,

You're also connecting to her body.

So it's what feels good between the two of you or to you as an entity,

Which if dominance is what's happening in that moment,

That's what's called for.

But if you're if you're straying from that,

Then you're sacrificing your inner game for some outer results and things don't seem to go as well.

Or things are less satisfying at the end of the day or things go wrong.

Like you come too soon,

Something happens,

You do something that doesn't feel good to her.

And then things happen from losing the inner game.

It's funny,

I think,

Tied a lot of topics we talked about,

Like inner game,

Outer game.

When we're in connection with her,

We both will like,

Like,

Say things.

Even master slave stuff.

I mean,

That is what happens is there.

These are old archetypes,

Which is why they're satisfying in the bedroom for many people.

Yeah.

Cool,

Man.

Well,

I got to run.

And it's good catching up with you.

Good catching up,

Man.

You're going to be in Europe for the rest of the year?

Yeah,

I kind of feel like challenging myself and staying here for the whole winter.

Keep swimming in the icy lakes and yeah.

Practice my masculinity and you know,

Going through the winter.

And the banking codes.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah,

Well,

I'll be in Europe probably next spring.

Cool,

Man.

Awesome.

Yeah.

I'll be in Europe.

I'll see you on the married part,

Tom.