072 Leslie Selene: Witchcraft And Initiation

Leslie Selene is a spiritual medium, meditation teacher, and author. She was introduced to me many years ago as a ‘Witch Doctor’ when I was in a cult... Many things she told me back then finally clicked in my head five years later. We speak about her take on mysticism from different cultures, trauma and spirituality, and her various initiations in mysticism.

Transcript

Today's guest is Leslie Selene.

Leslie is a witch doctor.

I don't know if that's what she goes by.

She was introduced to me as a witch doctor.

She's also an author and a mystic in various traditions.

And I connected with her back when I was in One Taste,

The cult I was in.

I tell the story in the podcast,

But basically my cult mentor gave me a session or got me a session with her.

And she gave me a read on all these different things.

It was kind of a mediumship session.

I didn't really understand what it was.

I didn't really know what mediumship was.

I didn't really believe in it.

I didn't really believe what was going on.

But she did say a lot of things to me that this year,

This is maybe five years later or six years later,

That a lot of these things have clicked in my mind.

And I talk about that in the show.

And it was interesting because we have mutual friends and I'd heard many things about her history and her lineage and her training.

And I really want to speak with her because I don't know if I shall share in this moment,

But the last couple of months I've been really leaning into any beliefs or understandings that I've had around mysticism.

When I was in the cult,

And you can check out on my YouTube and podcast,

I just released part one of my cult story.

Part two might actually be out by the time this episode's out.

But I leaned maybe a little too far into magical thinking or without enough discretion during that period of my life.

There were a lot of benefits.

There were negatives.

And I kind of swung back the other way the last couple of years of just being focused on practical matters and being responsible.

Now I find that my life is a lot more stable.

I'm finding this urge to lean into mystical beliefs again.

And I've actually been noticing in the last couple of months I've been materializing or manifesting things at a faster rate.

And things are just in flow and there's all these synchronicities that have surpassed my perception of confirmation bias.

I'll leave it at that.

But this was a really fun conversation with Lesley.

She speaks about her background.

We cross paths in one taste.

We speak a lot about sexuality in this podcast.

She has a great line,

Which I wrote down immediately,

Sex is the poor man's meditation.

But I'll let her flush that out.

Right now you're listening to episode 072,

Lesley Celine,

Witches and magic.

You're listening to the Ruando podcast,

Part of the Gotham podcast studio network in New York,

New York.

If you enjoy the show,

Please subscribe and read it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Awesome.

Lesley,

It's great to connect with you again.

Hi,

Good to be here.

Yeah,

It's just funny.

You actually came up recently.

I mean,

We have a lot of mutual friends and like everyone's over the last couple of years,

People have mentioned you and I've always been curious.

But I'm writing a book about my time in one taste.

And I was actually getting to the point that you and I,

When we first connected,

It was over like a Skype session.

You did like my cult mentor.

I don't know,

I'll go into that.

My mentor at the time got me a session with a witch doctor.

I was like,

I didn't know what that was,

But then connected with me,

With you.

And I was writing about that because this has been like five years.

And I realized some random things you said to me finally clicked for me this year.

I was like,

Well,

I need to I need to connect with her again and then like get some clarity on it.

So I'll ask you about those things.

But I was also just curious about your life.

So,

Yeah,

Glad to have you here.

Yeah,

I'm curious what what were the things?

Yeah,

Well,

We could jump into that.

I mean,

I don't know how this is going to come up,

But you said some things to me like around jealousy and like because like I never done a session like that.

I obviously had been coached,

But you just like did a read on me and just like just said a bunch of stuff,

Which I guess that's what you do.

Right.

What I do.

Yeah,

I'm a medium.

I try it the way I try to do is get out of the way and not have any preconceptions when I start and just and just let that let the very subtle information come to.

Awesome.

I'm going to ask you about your process if you have one soon.

But one of the things you said to me was around jealousy.

I was entering like open relationships the first time and you said something to me like,

Oh,

The reason why you're making people jealous is you're not staying connected.

I don't know if you said energetically,

But you're just not staying connected to the other person.

I had no idea what that meant for the longest time.

I was like,

Do I need to communicate more or whatever?

And then a few months ago finally clicked of like maintaining a hard connection with someone who I'm not physically with.

And it's like,

Oh,

I don't know why I didn't get it,

But I didn't get it.

And you said something about like masculinity and femininity,

Which I'll ask you about.

But I think for everyone,

It'd be great to know your background and what you do exactly,

Because I only know it superficially myself.

Well,

I'm a medium and I started reading poems when I was five.

I started reading cards when I was 12 and my family,

There was Aunt Eva who was like that.

So they just said,

Oh,

She's like Aunt Eva and just let her be that way.

So there was some context.

My family is Roma origin with gypsy blood.

But so they were Christian scientists and those were the early hippies in the family.

And so they just let me learn organically and they supported me in the practice.

And then I studied Zen.

I studied African diaspora religion.

Santeria is what is known by is called the.

Is that like with the Orishas like the.

OK.

Yes.

And Vodoun is the branch of of aspergine diaspora magic from Haiti and New Orleans.

So I've studied that too.

And more recently,

I've been living in Europe and studying the traditions of the Cathars,

Mary Magdalene branch of the Catholic Church and the Black Madonna traditions and tie in to the to the pagan religions that were prevalent before the Roman Empire.

And I don't know a ton other than what I've just researched online about these these topics,

But like they're basically tapping into like archetypal,

Like pre monotheistic.

Yes.

Animists.

We have this sensation that we can enter into direct communication with the elements.

And if you found because it sounds like you've gone through different cultures,

Are they basically the same like energies or are they really separate?

They can be related,

You know,

Like Shango can be related to Zeus is a Near Eastern variants of of the of the same tradition.

Thor is kind of like the same like Thunder,

The guy,

The storm guy,

But they're not all the same.

The Egyptian that they do are distinct beings from the Orisha.

They're cousins.

But if you call them up,

You get somebody else on the line.

Gotcha.

OK,

So could you I mean,

Maybe this is kind of maybe an intellectual question,

But like what are these entities exactly?

I've always assumed that every tradition was like tapping into the same energy or principle,

But just calling it something different.

But you're saying they're actually separate.

They're beings.

Yeah,

They're beings.

They're like some people say they're seventh dimensional beings.

I'm not exactly sure what we are either.

I know that I hold an illusion that I am separate from you.

And at moments I can see the truth that that's not true,

That there's that I don't exist without you,

Without my relatives,

Without my friends,

Without the entire ecosystem that is humanity.

I don't actually exist separate from that.

So it's a very good question where one being begins and the other one ends.

We're not quite sure.

We know that if we follow the instructions that were given to us by the ancients for calling up a spirit,

They work.

That's who you get.

Gotcha.

And these might be very basic questions,

But I would like the Black Madonna stuff that you mentioned or like the mysticism within,

I guess embedded in Christianity.

Is that the right way to put it?

Well,

Syncretized with Christianity,

Because that's how you do imperialism is you absorb the existing religions and you say,

Listen,

You can keep the statue of the lady on your altar,

But if you try to call it anything but Mary,

We're going to kill you.

Gotcha.

So that's where you get the homogenization aspect of like,

Oh,

It's all the same.

Alexander,

This is all imperial,

Imperialist philosophy overlay that,

Oh,

Yeah,

It's exactly the same as ISIS.

And it's exactly and it's not.

Gotcha.

Different.

So how does that work with in Christianity?

Really tapping into like a pagan.

It's like just a pagan tradition,

Just dressed up with different words.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Each Black Madonna resides at a spring.

Most of them are on the way to Santiago,

The community Santiago that they this pilgrimage that is now called a Christian pilgrimage.

It was they were following the Milky Way.

It was called the path of Venus.

And that's why they all wear that shell around their neck while they're doing that walk as it's about adoring Venus.

And what is it?

Black Madonna exactly?

A Black Madonna is a Madonna that's black.

OK.

A lot of them are are pre-Christian statue.

They're Roman statues of ISIS.

Most of them in France were destroyed in the French Revolution.

They just stuck everything on the fire.

But interestingly,

The people won't let them like they try to paint them white.

And then people are like,

No,

She's black.

Even though most of you in Europe are white and you're like,

Why are you insisting?

Well,

Because she is physically number one,

Obviously.

And she's a merry,

Merry,

Merry,

Merry,

Dark skinned people.

And and the other reason is that that blackness is origins,

It's root.

And so they're saying,

No,

We're going to call it Mary.

That's OK.

We'll call it the Virgin.

But we actually remember that it's a much older tradition and all old traditions come from that.

And when you say you're studying this or you've studied vodum,

What does that entail?

I don't know if you could answer that in one thing.

What does that mean?

I'm just trying to paint a picture because I have no idea.

Yeah,

Studying Western mysticism is very different because we've lost our lineage.

Everybody got burned at the stake.

So we have to reinvent.

And there's a pagan reconstructionism.

Anthropologists and sociologists go in and they look at the fragments that are left and try to reconstruct what what was going on when you're talking about Native American spirituality,

Which I have not studied,

Or the African diaspora spirituality,

These people have not lost their lineage,

Direct oral transmission from from God parent to child.

That is a ritual initiation.

And that's a completely different way to study that in books.

Gotcha.

And this initiation for again,

This might be a basic question.

But like,

What is it exactly?

What are you initiating into?

What changes when you I guess there's a rite of passage or something like that.

What changes?

Yeah.

Well,

The whole point of initiation is that it's going to change you.

Yeah.

There's there's a definite rebirth.

And an initiation and just like with your physical birth,

You don't get to decide which parts of you are consumed in the process and what lands at the birth.

So it requires a degree of surrender and trust in your elders and trust that that when you allow something to change you,

That somehow is going to be better.

You know,

Like when you fall in love and you know,

Oh shit,

You're going,

Oh,

Do I go into the fire or not?

You know,

You know,

It's going to change you and you run toward the fire anyway.

That's the form.

It's maybe the closest we get to initiation.

Sex being the poor man's meditation.

I'm going to ask you about that in a second.

I'm let this airplane go by.

I just moved into this new house.

It's like it's big.

It's amazing.

It's got a big yard,

But I happen to be right under a flight pass.

I'm in Thailand.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just moved in with my girlfriend into a big house with one of her friends somewhere else in Chiang Mai.

Oh,

Cool.

Yeah.

Nice.

I was going to ask you because I something has actually brought me back to spirituality was like was men's work and men's coaching and noticing.

It's like men,

So many men my age in our 30s were still boys.

And like,

Why is that?

We're missing out on the rites of passage.

We're missing out initiation.

And like just like looking at psychology has brought me back to spirituality because that seems to be such like a obvious missing piece.

I mean,

This is a bit of a tangent,

But,

You know,

You're mentioning that most people miss out on their,

You know,

Perhaps right of initiation.

What can people do to bring that back if they're not willing to jump into mysticism or will do it,

You know,

Often body the urge for body modification is an urge for initiation.

There are branches of AA that tree,

You know,

Drug abuse as the as the body is is looking for the indigen that is going to transform its brain and without guidance,

It can fall into addiction.

I think a lot of our unconsciously motivated motivated behavior is looking for that thread ancestral memory of I,

I want to grow,

I want to change,

I want to be someone else,

People cutting themselves.

Often the suicidal urge is an urge for spiritual death and rebirth misinterpreted items.

And so yeah what what we can do is,

And this is what I do oftentimes in my work is,

Is put people in touch with their own spirits,

And not try to like give them a path.

The risk with,

Like you're going to go to the Amazon and do ayahuasca well that'll work,

Only your ancestors don't know what they're talking about unless your ancestors are from the Amazon.

So there's a cultural appropriation aspect to the search for initiation that needs to be addressed and that's what the call the reconstruction is are trying to do they're trying to like okay well I'm like say I'm of Irish origin,

And I should really be doing the Celtic initiation but problematically you know all those people died.

We don't have one reconstruction is are we doing it so you can go there.

There's also the Sami people in Finland,

Are the indigenous there and there that American Indians of Northern Europe,

And you know in what they call shamanic which is a white people word to describe indigenous culture.

The Sami people are doing practices that are quite similar to Mongolian shamanic practice or Native American shamanic practice.

Yeah,

Unconscious urges really interesting I haven't actually thought about it in that way of like why,

Especially that usually happens during puberty,

Like,

We have those well like,

Obviously,

It makes sense and like I have thought that why people get wasted on their bachelor party.

Well that's just like,

It's not that different than a ceremony there's just no one guiding it and you're you're going in altered state encouraging typically,

And we used to have initiatory ceremonies you know a couple times a year in the,

In a community and you would have various initiations and throughout throughout your life and now all we get is your birthday,

Your wedding,

And your funeral.

Yeah.

So they cram everything into the wedding and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

So what do you do you have a process I don't know if it's these are things you can even put into words but in helping someone find their spirits like what does that look like.

Well,

As I say start by getting out of the way and getting empty and listening.

And,

You know,

So as a result sometimes people will come for session and they're specifically wanting to talk to one dead relative and that's not what happens.

They specifically want their spirit guide or whatever,

But we just listen and see what happens and usually the spirits will draw so long a path of discovery,

Where first starting with,

With the close ancestors,

The person will learn to set up an altar which is an antenna tuning into that station,

So that you know you're getting.

And they'll start relating to one or two ancestors on their own and when that is not no longer freaking them out then we can go deeper into light,

As you're saying,

Archetypal forces,

Which are like.

Bridget for the Irish say Bridget is a is a Catholic saint she's also a pre Christian deity,

And,

And she's also personal guide so Bridget will be called in at birth,

And a death for for this transition so people develop a personal relationship with her,

The way anyone can develop a personal relationship with Jesus.

And do you have any like tips or other procedures and creating an altar I mean I've made them but I've always been like oh this is just like a fun thing to do things I want to look at,

But is there anything more to it than that.

Well yeah if you want an antenna.

You'll mostly start start with just a white piece of cloth but if you're specifically calling the spirit that likes red use red,

You need the things that we have that go between worlds.

So,

Alcohol has been it's been distilled so it's been sent to the next world and back.

Right.

So they put up alcohol,

Water,

Water,

We know,

Is a vibratory conductor.

The way copper is you know.

So,

Water,

Booze,

Smoke,

So some people use a cigar.

Some people use incense but something that is smoke because it's going from the visible world to the invisible world.

And then you want symbol.

Because often we're not even speaking the same language is as the spirits,

We're talking to.

For example,

The net that it would be Egyptian deities they prefer it if you know how to say their name correctly.

Right.

Jesus he don't mind.

If you say yeshua,

If you say,

You know,

It's source if you say Jesus,

He don't actually mind,

But the net that are they really like it and you can feel the energy spark up when you say the name correctly.

So ISIS is all sit.

It's not ISIS,

So you got to get it right and then and then being Oh,

It opens.

So for some words and sounds are important.

How do people know this,

I mean this is my irrational mind like like how do you how do they know that Jesus responds this way and ISIS responds that way.

Experience.

Yeah,

Just try it.

And the and the symbol,

So a visual symbol relating to the spirit that you would like to speak to.

So,

Starting with your close ancestors,

Either a photo of them or an object that they enjoyed their favorite drink if they smoked their favorite cigarette,

And their favorite flower smell so perfume,

Or flowers that smell good,

Or a kind of perfume and that's traditionally the altar ingredients is all that there's some people put a crystal or stone that reminds me of their tuning to a specific vibration is the point.

So with connecting with deceased ancestors and stuff,

I guess this kind of jumps into a big question of what do we do after we die because I thought maybe maybe I'm going to be corrected but like,

I'm like if I'm going to tune into my grandfather,

Then he must be around in some form and not let's say reborn into a butterfly if I can,

I don't know,

Or is this these questions well that's that's the sometimes the disappointment when people show up and then I'm supposed to be Lily Tomlin and connect them to the operator connecting them to,

We don't know,

Some some spirits work.

Some spirits will come talk,

And it's not always the one you wanted to talk to.

I believe in reincarnation so when I can't get a hold of a spirit I'm thinking well maybe they are reborn somewhere,

Sometimes I'll get another voice will tell me where they went or you know we'll get some kind of a story or read on it and sometimes we just don't know.

Some,

Some spirits are reabsorbed back into their element of origin,

And they don't work either,

But a lot of spirits do work in their capacity as communication between this life and other realms.

So those are ones you're going to be talking to.

Have you found in the different traditions you study that there's some core things that conflict.

Things that conflict.

I'm just thinks I was raised Buddhist and Catholic and a lot of things but heads which was very confused I'm wondering with like you know like,

Like what but what says there.

Just like what happens after you die or.

Oh right yeah lots of stories.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead is different from the Tibetan Book of the Dead which is different from the Popol Vuh.

And,

And.

And so,

Obviously,

We don't know my stepfather was a Catholic priest,

And he married my mom when I was seven.

And so I watched him throughout his life,

Evaluate and reevaluate.

And he was truth and now that he always more information more study was truth now.

But when he did the funeral for his little brother.

He got up there and he said you know what we know about near death experiences we know that when people come back from a near death experience they'll report similar things,

But we don't know about.

They'll report similar to a to a not coming back death experience.

So he was looking at empirical data,

You know.

But when he passed away he said he wanted to call me,

He said he wanted to work,

He didn't want to go to heaven,

And he just wanted to work in the communication between the living and the dead.

And he was like,

Okay,

With the priests arrogance right like where do we send this memo dad,

You know.

But so he grew up Catholic converts,

But they were spiritualist they used a Ouija board at home so there was never any question in his mind that you could talk to dead people because on the Ouija board is spiritualist parents,

They give proofs the spirits do.

They'll tell you something or they'll during a session they'll tell me to say something that I can't possibly know.

And then the person will be like,

Oh,

She can't know that,

Then this must be real.

Well then they want to get in,

Because once you're open there,

They want to tell you I'm always by your side.

Look,

Everything is made of love.

There's a reason for all this.

And,

And those things are going to get in on the wave of how did she know about the yellow fireplace or whatever weird thing they gave me as a proof.

Yeah,

It's interesting.

I don't remember if you had magic school did you lead the thing with the God box,

And like it's coming back to me,

Or maybe it wasn't you know isn't me.

Okay.

Okay.

Well,

I'm just remembering this is a bit of a side but like it was something about putting intentions and like asking higher,

Whatever,

And I was like I've always been in and out but like at that point I was kind of deep into,

Let me just try every belief that's thrown at me.

And I remember I was asking for some things which were so vague that who knows if it was because of my ass but I threw in like a,

It's like a green M&M in the contract I just like this random thing it happened to be like a sexual occurrence that I couldn't possibly plan for.

And later that day it happened I was like,

Oh,

Okay,

Maybe everything else is kind of like a little clause to see if whoever was listening actually read it.

That's interesting that that's also how you go about with the proofs.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

You have to go by experience because I'm specifically working in the realm of the onion.

And that's what's fun about it is this liminal space,

It's negotiating between story and non story of being and non being,

And it's negotiating between thinking you know what you're talking about and admitting that you don't.

Yeah,

I want to go back to something you said sex is the poor man's meditation.

Can you flesh that out a little more.

Well yeah you can have a full full Kundalini awakening through sex.

And a lot of people do,

And there's some some have more language to talk about it than others.

You know,

I think a lot of people awaken that way.

And,

And then it either becomes part of their relationship or remains a private experience that they never discuss.

But there are the trauma can also open all your windows that I would call more of a radicalizing experience than,

Than a Kundalini awakening when that happens.

But we can we can wake up through wherever we're open.

But,

But most people don't have the experience of dissolving into oneness of,

Of,

Of lights going on inside of connecting with the stars,

Except for through sex.

And you can have those experiences through any other kind of meditation,

Ie anytime you're as focused as when you're landing a plane.

Yeah.

Right.

Which is people really only get 30 seconds mostly but anytime you're that focused on the,

The interaction between self and other.

You're wide open for an initiate.

Gotcha.

Yeah,

I heard this about you I don't know if it's true but like you have what you were part of a female lineage that learned about sexuality,

Could you speak about that.

Well like most of my initiations I can tell you part of it,

And there's,

I can't tell you.

They were working with a Hungarian lineage that had not lost their lineage.

That was exclusively female.

So,

Now that we're all questioning gender battle order is not what it was because we're redefining what a woman is right.

So at the time,

It was a group of exclusively cisgendered females,

Naked in the woods with with the goddess.

And it did involve teaching me to stimulate my clitoris while sitting in the roots of a tree or the branches of a tree with my back to the trunk and connecting my movement in my Vegas nerve from my own touch on the clitoris and moving the energy up the body and sort of becoming one with the tree.

And I could go up the branches of the tree and astral travel,

Or I could go down to the roots of the tree into the earth.

So what later when I studied shamanic healing with Michael Harner I realized that this was a sort of that.

It was a way that these women are discovered to go with your whole self,

Because that's the other trick with magic you can think about it you can say it.

But like you said there was unexpected belief that you had when you put that intention in the box and you're like,

Oh,

I kind of leave this for no reason.

And that's when your involuntary nervous system became involved in the equation.

Right.

So,

You want your whole self in.

And then we can move some energy.

Right.

And it is practices like this or what you learned in this initiation,

What opened up like mediumship ability,

What what is what happens to one as they practice such a thing.

Well,

I think I was already a medium.

I already had communications with specific guides of my own.

I was eight or nine around there when we had this initiation.

Yeah,

It opened up a much more physical connection with the earth,

So that it became more frequent that I would just lie down on the ground or put my back against the tree and just boom and just go right into what we would have called an orgasmic state at one definition of orgasm is also up for grabs.

Yeah.

We're not sure that every,

Every involuntary experience we have is the same.

Right.

And what is the tree,

Doing this,

Is it just like tapping into something that's alive that's bigger than you.

Um,

Well,

There's different ideas about that.

A lot of the druidic magic is about talking to the tree you're talking to a tree you're having a relationship with this being the initiation I had.

Of course you're going to have your favorite trees but they were just like,

Oh no,

Any tree,

You know,

Because,

And it's the as a conductor,

Because it's in the earth,

And it's in the air.

So they weren't,

They weren't communicating directly with the spirit of that tree.

But,

But yeah it's a it's a it's a living thing that lives in two worlds.

How did you end up connecting with one taste.

Well my friends brought me over you know,

A friend of mine was going through divorce,

And he is a martial artist so we set ourselves up for like tasks you know and use his penance was that he was going to be celibate for a year.

And then me and the other friend we were like,

Ha ha we're taking bets on how long he's gonna last and then sure enough before three months where he was taking us over to one place.

And we were like,

Okay,

So you're still celibate right.

And he was like yeah no it's not sex,

Right,

And we're like,

Okay,

So lesbians do that's not sexy they're right no p&vg no sex like come on man what it what you are,

You're getting in the,

The field,

You're,

You're,

You're an addict.

You know,

And so we decided okay this is actually,

It was a Venusian arts practice practice that balanced our martial arts practice.

It wasn't until years later that I was humble enough to see that the reason that I didn't get messed with as much as a lot of people I know feel mess with by their experience with one taste right.

And I was like,

Well,

I don't know,

I must be rad No,

I walked in with two armed guards.

Stay by me though.

And so it's not a mystery why I emerged from this experience unscathed.

So,

Because it seemed like you were kind of I mean by the time I met you're already like in a teacher you roll or like you know they didn't treat you as like a as a mark or anything I don't know what your relationship was like that I kind of just assumed it's because you were such a solid person or you had your own practices that were bigger than what they do armed guards the whole time.

Okay.

But now as an,

And because I was born and raised in counterculture.

I don't have the same programming.

So it's much more difficult to manipulate me.

And if you're a manipulator,

And a person is consistently,

Like,

Yeah,

I see you doing that.

You get respect for them,

You know,

So they got respect for me every time that one of their games had nowhere to look into.

Yeah,

It wasn't me it's just at the happening of my conditioning.

They didn't know how to manipulate it.

Gotcha.

There are ways like what I'm discovering with with my new book that that the,

That the new age counterculture narrative is of course infected with white supremacy,

And there's plenty of decolonizing to do also there.

But,

You know,

I started I always,

I always got paid at one taste I didn't,

You know,

I didn't have credit card number I gave them or anything,

And I always made sure I got paid for my services and Nick,

And Nick's always doing so there that we were friends and I worked on her I just I did sessions on her I did sessions on a lot of people that work there.

And it was about fine tuning energy.

And,

You know,

When there was the warehouse you know I would get sometimes unethical requests like can you break these people up,

You know,

It is like shooting fish in a barrel you know when you have a closed container like.

And so,

You know,

Trying to stay within my stay within my ethics.

I did experiment with what kind of effect can I have on a whole group dynamic at a distance wouldn't look my new hands.

And,

And so I learned a lot.

And I,

And I actually learned a lot about my own practice about about orgasm,

And,

And the inter relational aspects because I had studied it isolated only cis gendered women,

And only in this context.

And then when you start developing dialogue with your partners around it is actually a lot more fun and creative and do a lot with it.

Yeah,

So it sounds like they kind of used yours like a hired gun for certain things.

Yeah,

Like that a little bit.

And like the,

You know the esotericist for,

You know,

For certain ritual practices that that they were doing.

Yeah,

Because one thing I was with let's just airplane bass.

I wasn't the only one.

I wasn't the only esotericist that they were working.

Gotcha.

Yeah,

Excited will you and I connected because I had lent money to my mentor and instead of paying me back.

She just got me a session with you I don't know why she did it that way.

Yeah.

And I was like,

I don't know,

I mean I was so hooked into I just listened to everything that was like when I was like the deepest and so I was like okay.

And it was interesting because you know you just,

You know you channel to give me,

You said a bunch of things to me.

One of the things you said was that I was doing too much fire practice.

And you said something like,

Oh,

Me,

The way I was doing it was a fire practice,

So I thought you're kind of hinting at me that I should not own so much but I thought was confusing.

Good because my mentor had connected me with us like I kind of like said that to her and she kind of just laughed and it was because I you would have been blasphemous to say it's a stone less.

I don't know why they kept recommending me because I would go against the party line on a lot of things.

And,

And people who like higher level ups and one taste that come get a session with me when they want to leave,

Because they know I have no investment and they're staying or going,

You know,

I,

I understand the practice and stance limitations.

I understand the people and their limitations and.

And yeah,

They're,

They were given you too much fire practice on purpose.

It really resonated because I didn't really know what you're talking about other than the fact that I knew I always my eyes and always get so hot,

When I own that I would fall asleep.

And I was always like feeling dehydrated.

And,

Yes,

I don't know.

Another thing you said to me that I remember was that I wasn't in one taste to learn about the feminine I was there to learn about the masculine,

Which made no sense to me.

Because I you know,

I went from a very hyper masculine environment so like one taste which is,

But then it started.

Was it martial arts or business or what was it a bunch of things I mean I was the Marines was my first plan career and I decided to not do that but then I was kind of lost until I found one taste.

And only this year has it clicked like I kind of discovered my masculinity in interfacing with this hyper feminine environment,

And it's like I mean it took like five years for me to get what you said but I got it.

Yeah,

So so what what is it like with,

You know,

Having this,

You know,

Weird relationship with one taste I you're esteemed by them but also going against the line that ever come up as a problem.

Um,

No,

They never tried to micromanage what I did or said in my work that by then they'd figured out,

You know,

That wasn't gonna work.

The only thing.

Oh yeah,

I mean when when the other shit came down I was like looking I'm like,

Oh,

Did I do anything wrong,

Did I,

You know,

Bulldoze anybody's consent,

Did I,

You know,

And I'm looking and really the only thing they had on me was this snake dance magic school,

Like people think,

Oh,

That's weird.

I mean,

If they got on me.

Yeah.

What's your take of it.

Oh no.

What's your take of it all.

We all have to,

You know,

Re examine re examine what what we learned and and and,

You know,

Next teacher said unethical business practices which they taught her and and and they had.

She had a bunch of practices on the edge of of ethics that that they taught her,

And she did the best to deliberate a system that she could,

You know,

There's,

You know,

Most people who know a lot about sex,

Learn about it some fucked up way.

And that's where we are right now.

You're not supposed to still,

You're not supposed to know a lot about sex unless you're a sex worker.

And the way we treat sex workers is not great.

So,

You know,

When people come to me with like their issues about about one day so we work on their healing because whatever happened happened and and and whatever healing needs to take place needs to take place but first I want to just you know tell me again how you want to know what hookers know,

But you don't want to actually have to have anything to do with any actual hookers.

And they're going to have money issues,

And they're going to have power issues.

You know,

As we as a society opens up as the information becomes more prevalent you know we don't have these problems but in the beginning,

Yeah.

Do you have you imagined what such,

You know,

Corrected society or healthier society I mean,

Would it be like something where the initiations you went through when you're eight and nine,

We're just like normal,

Like every young woman every girl went through that is what is that kind of like what would be a healthier solution.

I don't know,

You know,

I know I wouldn't recommend that as a blanket solution for everybody.

There are a lot of places where that's still dangerous.

There,

There's a large chunks of the world where you can still get stoned to death and stuff.

So,

You know,

I wouldn't recommend just like a blanket.

Everybody do this now.

But,

But gradually women coming out of silence,

And men coming out of science around sex,

And there being more communication and more compassion carefulness around consent.

I think awareness awareness around sexuality is universally gonna get us all somewhere better.

And I guess the the whatever it looked like the the ideal would be where people didn't have to go through fucked up things or even with initiations they didn't have to deal with all this pain and trauma to have that experience you could just be healthy,

You know my so many friends in Spain they're they're my age and I assumed everybody's first sexual experiences with themselves.

Not so if the church gets there first and tells you you're going to hell before you even think of it.

I know people who began masturbating after their first divorce.

They started learning about sex after their first divorce.

That's regular folks,

You know,

Because you're really not supposed to know.

And I forget what the question was.

People people accessing,

You know the benefits of these traumatic experiences but without the trauma.

Right,

Yeah.

So the other way to learn about sex before,

Before your after your divorce.

Is is some fucked up way to get molested or raped or and and and you have to find out what happened to you.

And your false empowerment from your actual sexual empowerment.

Yeah,

I think it's just this that I've always everyone I know who's like really interesting or came to realizations young,

They had something fucked up happen or like they dealt with something,

And like,

People who haven't in my opinion is maybe is judgmental they seem kind of boring or they just haven't gone deep.

And you know it's very taboo to say anything like this so I would hope nobody quotes me out of context but I remember reading something on a Facebook thread where someone was admitting they said you know I'm actually kind of psyched to find out.

So my new girlfriend has sexual abuse because I know she's gonna be freaky.

Fortunately,

That is mostly how people find out if they're freaky.

Yeah.

I don't think it's the origin of the freak,

But yeah,

But we find out early,

Because we have to find out we have to explore if we're initiated that way.

And,

And it's a shame you know there is something traumatic about about a good initiation done well.

There's still trauma in there.

There's still either body modification or scare new or something.

Because it throws us in the way in the voluntary nervous system that's why it's valuable.

But trauma is not the ideal form of initiation but you can't say it's not a form of initiation.

So I know you're you're working on a new book on the Book of Shadows decoding mysticism I guess is the work.

Decolonizing.

Decolonizing mysticism because what I found is that the ascensionist narrative is necessarily a hierarchical narrative,

There is a white supremacist narrative in New Age philosophy where everything we can't explain is done by aliens.

And my personal opinion is that the pyramids were built by black people,

As were the massive statues on Easter Island,

And lots of other shit that white people didn't do it doesn't mean it was done by aliens but you go,

You go into like a regular like massager meditation community and you start questioning these things and people for the power,

You know,

And you're like okay why,

Why is it important to maintain the white supremacist narrative in in your,

In your good at two shoes,

You know,

Energy healing meditation practice.

Very interesting.

I just I don't understand the white supremacy part is it the idea that if,

You know,

European technology didn't figure it out and must have been otherworldly must have been aliens.

Okay,

I shouldn't have do anything with the fact that black people built it and we burned down the library with any record.

Gotcha.

Okay.

But that you still have you know,

People walking around believing this narrative that the aliens built the pyramids.

But it has to do with ascension so you have to believe you're going somewhere,

You're going somewhere better than the actual fact of life is it cycles.

There's always cycles you're never going anywhere that's the Brahmin thing was the political tool of social engineering and it still is.

And,

But the actual fact is power rises from below.

It rises up the body.

It gets to through your glandular system and your nervous system up here and it's going to change your mind.

And then it's going to drop down,

It's not going to keep going up there's no upstairs there's nothing higher than God,

It's going to come down and it's going to ask for embodiment,

And it's going to come down into your into your daily practice like how close can I get to my ideal.

And you have to know that you're not.

You're never close to your ideal you have to keep working,

But the way that it spreads is the energy doesn't go up that's going to be entropy.

It goes up,

It comes down and then it moves outward horizontally and acts of good works in your community,

Communicating with other people about about your ideals and how you want to manifest them.

It's interesting,

It's time to a lot of other things I've heard in different subjects like how in psychology like Freudian psychology is very monotheistic in its viewpoints like this is this idea they need to transcend the ego or even like those simple things like basically a holy trinity that Freud created with different words,

And it's all like cutting off the bottom overcoming the impulses that the animal body.

And then I was also I just interviewed a woman who's both a tantra practitioner and a daoist sexuality practitioner,

And kind of what you described were the two like schools of thought with moving energy up the body is it up and out or is it up and you cycle it back through an orbit,

And that just seems more human I don't know,

Leads to less headaches.

And you know you can try to escape this plane but even if you're a monk in a cave in the Himalayas and you haven't seen anyone in 30 years you're still connected to the rest of us.

Yeah,

Actually when I was at one taste I met this guy he was in the military he kind of did the what I planned on doing initially,

And then he hated it he totally you know went against his conscience.

And then he actually dissolved his ego almost like 100% he's like,

Wait,

I don't want to leave this plane like I want to enjoy life I want to have sex and play with money and stuff is like why would I leave this lifetime I've been given this gift of being human anyway you know by all accounts this thing is brief.

Right.

And so you have to go into the darkness and illuminate the darkness and bring,

Bring your,

Your,

Your spiritual idealism right into your sexuality,

Where it's going to make a change in your home.

Right where you live in your relationships,

And then you have a point of reference for how to resolve these kind of problems,

How to,

You know,

Put the vulnerability first as,

As the precious thing in the relationship,

How to listen to one another.

So is that,

So is your book,

Kind of like a procedural guide or is it more like historical,

It is it's,

I started writing it because I have different ages of God children went my youngest child right now so she's 11.

And,

And she likes books so traditionally you you write it down you write it down with with their handwriting and write the charts and the symbols with your hand,

And then your student copies it into their own book of shadows.

And she copies it in English,

Then she writes it again in French,

And she writes it again in a code only she understands.

And then my,

My practice became to distill these these complex concepts into a simplest way possible so an 11 year old can understand them.

And,

And yeah,

So,

So it's demystifying transmission.

Gotcha,

And applicable to anyone who's interested in.

Yeah,

Sort of in self initiation.

Yeah.

Awesome.

Well,

I look forward to coming out.

I've,

Yeah,

It's been great speaking with you about.

It's just like it's.

Yeah,

It's fun speaking about like mysticism like a practical like understandable way.

Yeah.

What do you think the book will be a.

Probably in a year.

Okay,

Cool.

Well,

Definitely will hit you up again when it comes out.

Cool.

Was there anything else you wanted to share like or how could people find out more about your work.

I'm a hexen hammer press is,

Is where I published my novels last year.

They are an archipagan eco feminist fantasy trilogy,

Love,

A group of menopausal women finally run out of loving kindness and go on a rampage.

So that was me contacting the harpy within post menopause,

We have this ruthlessness,

That takes the place of the maternal instinct and that's when I let her speak that's what happened.

So Leslie Celine on Facebook or Instagram or whatever.

Hexen hammer press for the books.

Awesome.

Thanks.

Well so fun speaking with you.

You do have a great time.

Bye.

Bye.

Please.

So