How To Be A Life Coach Feat. Tim Jack

One of my clients interviews me about being a coach. It wasn't meant to be a podcast but it got me so inspired I had to publish. This episode of the podcast is brought to you by my higher self-esteem.

Transcript

This episode of the podcast is brought to you by my higher self-esteem.

My higher self-esteem is responsible for some major changes in the last year and if you've been following or at one point follow this show,

You'd know that I I've taken about a year off and I won't go too deep into the story behind all of that.

I might in a later episode,

But I basically spent the last year traveling the world,

Mostly living in Asia.

I have a little place out in Chiang Mai now.

This has also been my most successful and prolific and life-changing year.

Again,

This is not to brag,

It's more to like bring up how I stopped doing the podcast last year because I kind of lost myself in the business of being a coach.

I kind of there's certain things about marketing,

Particularly marketing online that I really didn't jive with and it took me a while to really figure out how to navigate that.

Please excuse the alarm clock in the background.

I am visiting my folks and they have a bunch of old people things like a clock that makes noise every hour.

But here I am and I don't know how consistently I'm going to be doing the podcast.

I'm kind of more focused on some other things like video and I might be doing some more major media stuff.

Also writing a couple books that should be out in January with some various awesome collaborators.

But this is all to say that I was inspired to make this podcast today,

Not even as a podcast,

But because one of my clients who you'll hear in about a minute,

One of my coaching clients reached out to me about wanting to have like a more,

I guess,

Intellectual conversation aside from just our coaching sessions.

Like he just wanted to hear my thoughts on ideas because in coaching sessions I don't really teach anything.

I'm kind of more asking questions trying to get the clients genius out.

But this particular client,

Tim,

He's an awesome guy.

You'll hear from him and his thoughts on things.

He wanted to just like kind of interview me basically and I was like,

Okay,

I mean that sounds like it might be fun.

Let me record it just in case and towards the end,

I realized like this is actually I think will be useful for people to hear.

So this episode wasn't meant to be a podcast,

But it's mainly focused around my business as a coach and my not even the business side partially,

But also my experience of what I think coaching is and how it works.

Because a lot of people ask me like,

How do I do what you do?

Like asking me,

Like how do I become a coach?

How do I become a person that talks to people about their lives?

And I'll speak about exactly my recommendations for that in this episode,

But also just my perspective.

Because without trying to get all gobbledygook-y,

It is kind of a spiritual thing for me,

This work that I do.

It's obviously partly how I support myself as well as some other businesses too,

Just so I don't have to rely on this service that I give the world for income.

But that's the,

Yeah,

It's kind of,

It was actually an honor to speak about it and really have my thoughts known.

Because a lot of people ask me how do I become a coach?

And that was something that I was curious about seven years ago.

And if there's anyone out there,

If you're listening or have thought about working in personal development or being a coach or being a speaker or writer in the personal development industry,

If you've been into it but you're kind of turned off by the business side,

Like the dark side of self-help,

We're actually going to touch on a bunch of those things.

Tim is one of my awesome clients.

He asked some very insightful questions and I actually think he'll be a great coach if and when he decides to do that.

But without further ado,

This is I guess episode 027 after a year and a couple months off back on the Ruando podcast.

Enjoy.

You're listening to the Ruando podcast,

Perpetual orgasm,

Infinite play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

Cool.

So mainly what I wanted to,

What I thought would be interesting to chat about was your experience as a coach so far.

Okay.

Pardon my gummy bear that I'm eating.

Yeah,

Go for it.

I had an inspired moment of questions.

So nice.

Okay.

First question.

So how long have you been a coach?

I've actually been coach.

I mean doing coaching in any capacity almost seven years.

I think this December will be seven years,

But doing in a way that I consider professionally.

My first paid coaching session was like September 2013.

So that's like five years ago.

You remember the exact date,

Huh?

Yeah.

And I remember that because I don't know if you've seen me writing in my notebook.

It's all probably off screen,

But yeah,

In this notebook every day since 2012.

So I have like 400 or 500 of these notebooks little notebooks.

They used to be my wallet and I've recorded everything.

So I'm really good at remembering dates.

Can I see one?

Can you can you show the camera?

Yeah,

You know,

If this was a professional coaching session,

I would have it but actually showed up unprepared.

It's funny.

I was thinking like this is we're doing the same thing I do in a coaching session,

But like I would never have rescheduled this if this is a coaching session.

I don't know if this relates to things you're about to ask,

But like I considered coaching to be like the sacred thing.

So I wouldn't have rescheduled for being sick last week.

I wouldn't have rescheduled and pushed the back of the time for convenience today.

Oh,

Yeah.

No,

No,

It was kind of it.

I figured that it was more of an informal thing that we were doing together.

So yeah,

Now I was noticing that I treat it differently even though a conversation is a conversation like physically.

Cool.

Okay,

So it's been seven years.

So so think back to the first client that you had and how you approached him or her.

And and then talk a little bit about how it's changed over time.

I don't know if this is one of those things where it's like what I would have told my 20 year old self.

Well,

Maybe.

Well,

I don't know.

Well,

I'll just tell you and then maybe something like that will come up.

My first client I met him at I was working with this self-development company kind of as a contractor.

And I was in this community more importantly and at this one of their events.

I saw this guy who was just like me when I was a little younger.

He was a little older than me,

But I saw him as like he's in the same spot,

Like with anxiety and his relationship with with masculinity and dating.

I was like,

I can help him.

I need to help him.

And I was already taking his coaching program.

So I went up to him.

It was like,

Can I coach you for free?

And he kind of said yes,

But he didn't know what he was saying yes to.

And the first time we met,

He was like,

What are we doing here?

And I was like,

I am going to give you this thing for free.

And he's like,

Well,

I don't I don't need coaching.

Like what is this?

So it was like a very,

Very awkward conversation.

Yeah.

But I said,

I told him like,

Just like just like let's do this for like four times,

Like four weeks.

But by the end of the four weeks,

He wanted to do work with me and he asked me like how much I cost.

And I was like,

I don't I don't know.

I wasn't planning on getting this far with you.

So I charged him 20 bucks a session for a while.

And that was like,

And then he stayed with me for a few months.

I think by the end of it,

He was paying like 60 bucks a session or something like that.

Did you always feel called to be a coach?

No,

I've always been into self-development.

It's been my obsession since I was like a teenager.

Like very hardcore obsession.

And I wanted to write and teach.

But the idea of like talking to someone one-on-one seemed kind of like weird to me.

I didn't really get the point of it.

But I was already taking this coaching program really just for myself not to become a coach.

I just wanted to like I just thought I could learn a lot for myself.

But then over the time I was like,

No,

I actually I think I'm good at this.

I think I'm better than a lot of people in this class at coaching.

Yeah,

I can totally relate to that.

The first book that I ever read was by this psychologist named M.

Scott Peck and he wrote this book called The Road Less Traveled.

So I was sitting like around like as an 11 year old like everybody was reading goosebumps and I was like life is suffering and blah blah blah.

Dead stuff.

So yeah kindred spirit there.

Cool man.

So see we just we just did that.

So so you said that initially it was kind of like what am I doing?

You know,

I let's just let's just keep meeting up and see where this goes.

So now seven years later,

Which is interesting because seven year mark is an interesting mark in terms of relationships to like when relationships hit the mark of like is it going to work out or not?

It's usually right.

And in seven years all of the cells in your body have regenerated.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So so seven years later all new cells.

What have you learned and and how is it different?

How have you evolved?

It's very different.

I mean one I could support myself.

My financially stable so business wise is doing well.

I don't have to convince people to coach them anymore.

That's a big thing.

But as far as like the actual thing like I kind of related to what I was saying.

I viewed as like a sacred thing because like yes,

I'm just talking to people right but it's more than that.

Like it's a lot more than that and like I realized that my ability to serve people.

I can really need to take care of like my for lack of a better word energy beforehand.

Like if my head's in the wrong place,

I can't help people.

If my body's in the wrong place.

I can't help people.

Like I need to like really be good and then and then cool things happen.

We have conversations.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I can totally relate to that and it's it's kind of like,

You know,

It's really comforting to hear you say that because I've always had a suspicion that my brain telling me like hey don't eat those gummy bears before you talk to one.

But I should maybe listen to that or or but but it's cool to hear somebody that is clearly,

You know successful and deep into their craft saying that I still have to prepare almost like an athlete.

Would I assume for like a track?

Yeah,

You know,

And especially for something like this where it's like again,

The physical act is just talking but it's like something there's something is kind of like the difference between making noise and playing music like there's got to be something like the intangibles matter so much.

So I do treat it like this important thing is actually a book that I think you might like.

It's called the general theory of love.

I bought it yesterday and I'm 10 pages into it.

That's get out of town.

I swear to let me that's that's crazy.

Not a lot of people have heard of the book.

It's not a very popular book crazy crazy.

What good?

I'm glad you're ahead of that ahead of me on that cool.

That's a cool synchronicity.

Yeah.

Anyway,

You'll get into a part of the book where it talks about what makes a therapist effective is not the ideas or the advice or anything.

It's like they they use a term is kind of pseudoscience limbic resonance like state.

It's a state of the person and you're like letting them sink to you and that's what allows them to have good ideas.

Like I don't I don't know coaching sessions.

I don't give you ideas.

Maybe I sometimes offer suggestions but like that's not where the magic happens.

The magic happens is when I encourage you to come up with your own ideas.

Yeah,

So totally yeah.

Yeah,

I'm excited to read about that.

I think that you and I have spoken about that in passing in like our own session.

So I'm excited to get to that.

Okay,

So the questions are getting slightly more specific here.

But when you're giving somebody advice,

There's I don't know if I worded this correctly,

But there's a position of authority that you have to take out assume to advise someone like you're you're saying that wherever you're at in your life.

I am able to potentially offer something that is superior to where you're at now or at least superior in the way that you're approaching the problem.

Is that fair?

Um,

I don't know.

I think it's a little tricky to look at it that way because it puts a lot of pressure on me.

Yeah,

Things and I found when I've lost motivation to coach is because I was trying to take on like a superior attitude because a lot of my clients,

Especially when I started I started I was 24 a lot of my clients almost all my clients were older than me.

It's like like what do I have as a 24 year old kid to teach them?

Not a lot maybe some perspectives but like it's again more encouraging their genius.

So I will say you have to be secure.

I mean just like parenting or relationships like if I'm insecure the other person can't possibly find their genius moment because that comes from security.

So I don't this answers your question or not.

But it kind of does.

Yeah,

I mean where I was trying to get to with it is basically do you ever question if what you're saying is actually helpful to someone?

Do you ever kind of question like after you get off of a session with a client you think well shit.

I don't know if I should have said that and I don't not anymore.

Not anymore.

I don't I don't really give advice.

Like I'll share my experiences.

I'll give suggestions and most the time I'm just asking questions not just but I'm asking interested questions to get them to think about because I have different moral morality than all many of my clients.

Like I have a different political viewpoint.

I have a different spiritual viewpoint.

Like it's not my business to tell them what's right,

But it's my business to help them figure out what's right for them,

Which might even be something that I wouldn't ever do.

The closest I'll get to that is saying what I did in such a situation which really applies most really only to business and dating with some other things.

Like I have a client who asked me we talked about parenting her child and I'm not a parent.

So the hell do I know but I asked her questions to get her to you know,

Figure things out for herself.

That's cool.

Yeah,

So just kind of when you get trained for suicide prevention,

A lot of what they train you to do is just it's really just like four fundamental things.

I'm sure you already know this but it's like validate identify or reflect their feelings.

So it sounds like you're feeling really upset that your mom won't let you go to the prom with the person you want or whatever,

Whoever you're talking to and or and then paraphrase which is kind of reflecting back to them what they've said so they can hear it,

You know coming from you and kind of and then the other thing is just gosh,

It's not validation.

It's open-ended questions.

So letting people just explore like if you're feeling really upset right now,

Like let's explore why that might be and just kind of asking probing questions to get them to talk about,

You know,

Explore a space or whatever.

So so so that's yeah,

That sounds like a really good therapeutic approach.

I want to say something about the probing because I think about this a lot.

Like I've gone through phases where I've become very cynical about self-help especially being in the industry and seeing how people make money and like sometimes like I don't know if that's really with a lot of my val.

I've gone through different phases with that but I've come down to like my final conclusion is that self-help is a genre of entertainment in that.

We all spend our time and money and energy doing things that are interesting to us when you're spending that attention on personal development.

The thing that's most interesting to you is your own life story and in a way I'm helping people just be entertained with their not just the be entertained with their own lives.

So they become really interesting because a marker for success for me in a coaching session is when I ask a question and they say huh,

That's a good question because I know that they are now thinking about something.

It's way more interesting than their normal thought stream and it's usually something creative.

Wow,

That's fucking cool.

Yeah,

And then as a coach,

I love it because I love watching people's life stories.

Like I can only live my own life but I can like vicariously watch you become a musician.

I don't know if that's what you're going to do but like do things like or like watch a woman parent her child or watch a person get a book to you.

I get to I get to see these heroes journeys that I can't experience myself,

But I get to watch the movie in real time and kind of like help them edit the story.

Dude,

That's so cool.

Yeah,

It's great.

I love it.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Okay,

So so everyone is subject to ups and downs creatives even more.

So do you identify as a creative?

Yeah,

Writing and stuff like that.

Okay.

So how do you deal with your low points?

What insights do you have to maybe get out?

Like I guess the one like how do coaches coach themselves type of thing?

Yeah,

A couple things.

The first thing comes to mind.

So I was a little I've gone through cyclical depression since I became interested in self-help,

Which is when I was a teenager and last like last year I went through kind of a down.

I was in a bad relationship.

I made I made a bad business.

I was in a bad business partnership.

So I had two toxic relationships in my life and I was kind of depressed and I was talking to a coach.

I got a coach for some time actually really only one session and he was pointing out to me how he also gets depressed.

And basically what he told me was like if you know,

You're going to get depressed eventually because you're human and maybe that's what your tendency is and you plan for it.

It wouldn't be a big deal.

Like if you know,

It's going to be cold in the winter.

You just get a jacket like so I think a lot of creatives go nuts because every time they get feel down they're like,

Oh my God,

I'm down again.

I thought I was never going to be down again.

But like maybe that's just what happens every year.

And if you just know that you don't even consider a depression.

It's just like okay.

I'm in my chill out phase of the year.

But then we resist it.

So we add on all these stories.

It's like oh no,

I'm depressed and then and then you really spend it to real depression from there.

You start thinking negative thoughts you start treating yourself.

Like you're eating more gummy bears or whatever it is like something that's not good for you.

And then you dig a hole.

Hold on,

I lost you on sound.

Are you there?

Yeah,

I hear you now.

Yeah,

I wrote something similar about this recently because I can totally relate to the cycles and it's almost to the point where it's like,

Ah fuck like it's gonna be like the foggy weather for like the game like God damn it.

And I feel like at least for me initially it was like,

Well,

Let me try and will my way out of this.

Let me see what I can do.

Like is it my diet?

Is it my food?

Is it do I need to read this author?

Do I need to write this song or like how can I get out?

And then it was almost like resisting the grayness or resisting the weather was like keeping it there.

And it's a lot like what you said.

It's kind of like,

Yeah,

There's things that I can put in place,

But there's also an element of like,

You know,

This is the biorhythms of me and you know what I mean?

So yeah,

I buy stuff on top of that.

That was my realization last year,

But I've learned a lot more on this topic since for myself.

Like I think stuckness and writer's block and depression are all the same thing for a creative.

Really?

They're all the same root.

And for me,

Like there's like a couple keys like self-love even though in the foggiest day,

If you can love and approve of yourself,

Including your your shortcomings in your failures,

If you could still love yourself through that,

Then you really can handle anything and that's been like a theme for my year.

This has been the most successful year of my life.

I think it's because I've spent a lot of time by myself really really getting touched with myself.

Like this is to me what spirituality is like you could call it God or you just call yourself like talking to yourself and like having a really positive like I feel like I'm indifferent to relationship failures right now.

I've taken a lot of media criticism this year and like I'm like completely fearless when it comes to that stuff now.

That's so cool,

Man.

Yeah.

Oh,

That was just one key though.

I just want to list it out.

So I've written a lot about this recently.

Self-love.

Yeah,

I'm just kidding.

I didn't hear that.

I said the dark pit is coming.

What was it saying?

Oh self-love focusing on one thing at a time.

I think overwhelm comes like creators have a lot of ideas usually and like that's the number one thing that messes your brain up trying to do more than one thing and framing it as service.

Like when you make it not about you,

It becomes a lot harder to self-sabotage and those are kind of like my go-tos.

Yeah,

I can I can really resonate with the last one.

Like when things start to go wrong,

It becomes the me show too much.

Gosh,

That's so weird.

I think I was watching a video by that guy that you spoke with Brian,

Brian vegan.

Yeah,

And he was talking about this thing.

It was like law of relativity or something.

I'm still like kind of have an adverse reaction to a lot of like law of attraction stuff,

But it was interesting and he was basically talking about how like there's a dot and when you focus on that dot too much like all the gear reality is that dot of suffering,

But there's all this white space around it and remembering like like being of services acknowledging the white space around that little dot and now there's a bigger perspective perspective which is just like my suffering.

It's like,

You know,

I can get out of my temporary dot for a second acknowledge this bigger.

Yeah,

Because it's not about you and that really hit home for me like being in third world countries and seeing like how much spending and other people can really make a difference.

Like what I spent on a smoothie in New York could feed a family of five in Bali,

Right?

Like is like like why like why was I like just my perception of abundance and scarcity has changed a lot and I think that's unblocked a lot of my past resistances because it's not about me.

Like I don't even want money for myself as much anymore.

It's more like I can do a lot of good stuff with money and time and energy and and I get on right for myself so much anymore.

And it feels like yeah,

All the limiting beliefs only matter if you if it's the me show like you said.

Yeah.

Do you think that the me show is a part of the process though for people?

It seems like all creatives a little narcissistic like you kind of want to you want to be seen right?

I think that's fine.

I mean,

I mean like in when like say I don't know just a hypothetical situation where somebody is working on something a lot of people say well focus on yourself.

That's that's that's kind of a I guess a trope a self-help trope.

Yeah,

It's on yourself,

You know,

I guess and do you think that that's an important part of a healing process for someone or do you think that it's the focus on the self that is making it difficult for you?

That's a good question.

I think when people you can't help people until you are genuine about your own desire.

Otherwise it comes out as codependence or nice guy syndrome or whatever you call it.

Like you'll always have an ulterior motive until you feed yourself and creativity has to come from this internal impulse and it can't be to impress people or get people to like you or do it for other people's benefit.

So it does have to start with like a self-centered root,

But then you don't keep it for yourself.

It's like it comes through you.

We're talking like kind of poetically now,

But like no,

It's really it's hard to pin this down.

Isn't it?

Yeah work like because it's it's almost like like I know exactly what you're saying and it's I think we talked about it briefly but it was like the backwards law.

It's like whenever you like the wanting of something reinforces the lack of having that thing.

So it's like it's like so if you really want to I don't know man.

It's it puts my fucking brain in a pretzel,

But it's really cool.

That's that's a different conversation though.

Cool.

All right.

I do want to say something I think is like a creative thing that a process thing that I've I think has made me be better at publishing like there are stages of creativity and the beginning has to be selfish interest like interest in the sense of like,

I think it's just an interesting thing.

This is an interesting sound or an interesting set of concept and you make something but in order for you to put it into a to materialize it you need to find out where it fits in the market,

Like how it's relatable to people and then like there's like there's different stages.

You can't do them both at once.

Otherwise the product is going to suck.

So you have to start with this internal like ethereal side and then you do need to put it into matter.

And I think a lot of lot of creators only do half of that one or the other.

Yeah,

That's that's I struggle with the latter half.

I think like I'm if I it's almost like I'll think about how people should be perceiving it before I let it germinate in the first stage or I let it germinate in the first stage and then I have no fucking idea how to reframe it for people.

So it's hard to get the marriage of the two where it's like I've authentically birthed this creative baby.

Yeah,

Now I'm going to now I know where to put it to and I know how to get it.

You gotta put clothes on it because no one's gonna want to talk to your naked baby.

Yeah,

That's right.

Okay,

Cool.

Is there anything else you want to add to that that no thought?

Okay.

You said that you have a coach.

Do you have a coach now or you know,

I had a coaching session I misspoke I had a coaching session with a person a lot of my friends are coaches.

So I think I get a fair amount of casual coaching.

But really I do coach myself mostly and that like that comes down to what I guess you could call my spirituality.

Like every morning I'm writing morning pages and I'm addressing it to quality.

Like that's my word for like God if you will.

Have you read set of the art of motorcycle maintenance?

Set on your shelf to on my shelf.

That's crazy,

Man.

So do you read it?

No,

I've gotten through like 40 pages.

It's a hard book to get into it was it was fucking boring man.

It was super beginning is very dense,

But it gets good and anyway,

I mean,

I'll spoiler alert a little bit.

I'm sure you don't mind like he's trying to define what quality is throughout the book and he doesn't say it directly but quality is like that intangible thing that people call God for lack of a better word or every religion like everything is like trying to move towards quality.

It's a totally subjective thing,

But it's real and like so that that's my God I pray to quality,

You know,

I write a letter to quality every morning and like that's how I organize my thoughts.

How can I move things towards quality and with everything and I don't remember what your question was but that that's an answer to something.

No,

No,

That's cool.

And I can see there's something kind of like there's something deeper in that philosophy.

That that is like quality is something that you're never going to it's going to be something that you can work on forever.

Right?

Like you'll always be able to make it slightly better.

And this is kind of now we're just going on different trains of thoughts here.

But I think that that's like such an important thing like the the breakthroughs that I've had in my life.

It's all it's all come from like getting myself or how can I describe it man?

It's like finding something finding a problem that not I guess a problem or something that is worth dedicating like that you'll never be finished on but that is how gosh I'm all over the place now man.

I understand.

Yeah,

It's a continuous improvement.

Kaisen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think the fact that is subjective matters to like everyone has a different sense for it.

But it's something you don't need to learn about.

They need to learn what makes something quality like is you feel it.

Like that's what when people talk about spirituality,

That's usually what they're experiencing like they have a sense for quality and then maybe they add on a deity's name to it.

But like that's what they're talking about.

Well,

That was a famous quote,

Wasn't it?

Something if you're a creative and your art isn't where you want it like your sense is right,

But I forgot who said it.

There's some famous quote with that exact thing though.

I don't know.

That's another thing.

Go ahead.

Something about taste like he's like,

Oh,

I don't know but I've made have said this to you.

I said this to someone this morning actually like it's really sucks for someone who has a sophisticated taste and not much talent because they'll never get started.

Whereas a lot of people start with like poor taste and poor talent and that gives them permission to put out crap and putting out crap.

Eventually,

They did refine their talent and then ideally the taste and talent rise together.

But I have some friends who would be brilliant writers,

But their standard is so high and they haven't done enough writing to be good.

So they don't write and it sucks for them.

I was fortunate to have terrible taste when I started writing.

So I you know,

I had time to grow.

Yeah,

I guess if you have a more sophisticated ideal than that ideal is judging you more harshly.

Yeah.

Yeah,

That's that's interesting.

Okay,

So this is kind of getting a little bit into the difference between a coach and a therapist.

But my question would be do you feel that you're less qualified than those who have formal clinical training to be a therapist or a coach or why not go the clinical route for you?

So the practical reason is a few years ago when I was considering getting an LCSW,

Which would allow me to be a therapist,

One of my friend's moms who's been a therapist for like 30 years,

Basically laid out the pros and cons and she basically kind of convinced me not to do it.

Because she's limited with how much she can make.

She has all these standards.

The only benefit business-wise is that she can take insurance.

But people who want to pay with insurance are usually trying to diagnose a problem rather than create a life.

So what I think is the difference though is therapy tends to be about problem fixing or even problem airing out.

It's not even about fixing.

Whereas a coach,

My take on it after all these years is like I get to help people write their life story,

Which is very different to me.

Like instead of like,

Pathologizing everything.

Yeah,

Yours is proactive and therapy,

At least the way that you just defined it,

Is more reactive.

Yeah,

I will say though that based on like general theory of love,

I do think it comes down to the person.

It's just like there's no martial art that's better.

It comes down to the fighter,

Right?

I think it does come down to the person.

I bet there's therapists who are amazing and they do create lives.

And I think there are coaches who probably just try to diagnose problems where they pathologize every person's creative dilemma or something.

Like I think it comes down to the person.

But what I like about coaching is that since the barrier to entry is nothing,

You just put up a website,

Call yourself a coach.

It forces you.

The only people who are successful are the ones with quality service,

Right?

Like no amount of marketing is going to make up for you irritate people when you talk to them or something like that.

Right,

Right,

Right.

Yeah.

Cool.

What advice would you give someone who is looking to get into your line of work?

Coach as many people as possible for free.

Right,

Because like there is,

I mean,

That's if you're interested,

I assume you're already interested in personal development.

Like anyone who's interested in coaching,

I would hope is really into that subject.

So they're already doing their own work.

They're already reading.

I mean,

That's the number one prereq.

Then as far as like actually getting your education,

There's nothing that's going to be actually doing it with when it comes to anything.

But like coaching,

Especially like I didn't feel competent as a coach until I hit a couple hundred hours.

And then I felt like,

Oh,

I'm never going to be nervous.

But when a coaching session starts,

But my first 200 hours might have been,

I mean,

I definitely got nervous a lot in the beginning,

Especially with a new client.

But now I don't.

I know I just I trust that things are going to move.

Or maybe I'm not the right coach for them,

But I'm not going to take it personally because I know what I can do.

So the experience gave you the comfort.

Yeah.

And it gave me the confidence to give me the actual like I have a track record.

Like I know what to do.

I know certain exercises.

So like what were you do?

I mean,

Did you just kind of make it up from your head?

Like,

Okay,

Well,

I have this person and we're on Zoom or whatever you've used in the past.

And I'm just going to wing it and see what happens.

Or did you have?

I've had more structure in the past,

But now I kind of I just I try to follow the interest and I trust that we'll find the right thing.

And I trust that my curiosity will steer us in a good place.

And then all the things that are internal we talked about have to be there.

I mean,

Seeing your client as already that hero at the end of their journey,

Like is important like seeing for lack of a better word,

Their potential like seeing that they're not broken seeing them as whole.

Like I don't let people hang on to like,

Oh,

I have this I can't do this because I have ADD like no,

It's bullshit.

I don't even believe in ADD.

And it's I don't know if that's controversial to say but like I can see someone's genius.

If only maybe I'm projecting but I see it and I just find I'm just as curious as possible to bring us in that direction.

I trust that it's there somewhere.

So what about if you work with a client and something happened and you realize that you wouldn't be a good fit for this client?

It hasn't happened in a while.

And I don't know why that is.

I don't know why I've had like particularly awesome people this year.

But in the past I've had like men who had kind of challenged me intellectually and it might have been because I was a lot younger and like some some guy who was like 35 who's asking me for dating advice like trying to challenge me and they're like I'd be judged as being too feminist or something and like some some dudes I guess happened a bunch but not a ton.

Not really if someone's immature.

I'll probably tell them like,

You know,

It's usually younger people.

I'm like,

You know,

Maybe you don't need a coach.

Maybe you should read more books.

Go on a trip,

You know,

Get an internship will probably learn a lot.

Yeah.

Okay.

What is your most interesting coaching story so far?

Interesting.

I coached someone who I'm pretty sure was in the mob.

Because I think I mean,

I don't even know if his name that he told me was his real name.

I think it might have been a fake name,

But he told me he owned or he was a manager at a printing shop like a copy shop,

But he always had a three-piece suit on and then like a really nice overcoat.

He paid me in hundred dollar bills from a wad of hundred dollar bills.

Like there's something and I and we would meet like this shady bar and do our coaching sessions there and I wouldn't do this anymore.

Now.

I mean,

This is I didn't really know what my container was yet,

But I would coach him through relationships and opening up emotion all the stuff that he really needed like he was a he was a hard man.

He just seemed like a mobster and one time I was coaching him through like a work dispute and he called me like frantically saying that he thought that someone's going to kill him.

I was like,

Come on.

I mean just because you told the truth.

It's like a little office while well,

I can know it's going to kill you.

But like so no,

No someone's going to kill like and he wasn't really being straight with me something with the cops and like I don't even know he was like he also get a thick accent and I actually don't know what happened to him.

We finished like we had an eight session package.

We finished I texted him a few times later and he responded and then I texted him again,

Maybe a month later he didn't respond and you might have ignored me.

Maybe didn't want any more coaching.

I was asking if you wanted to coach anymore.

I never heard from him again.

So I have no idea but he did start after three years of sexless marriage.

He did make love to his wife in those eight weeks for the first time in three years.

So I feel successful that in that end.

I hope he didn't die.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean you can only do so much.

Yeah.

That's crazy,

Man.

Yeah.

And how do you see your coaching evolving moving forward?

Seven years.

I mean,

It's more on a business end.

I think I'm I feel like I'm on the edge of a jump in my career in general.

Like I'm gonna be doing a lot more media.

I might have a TV show next year.

So if that's the case,

I might actually not be taking on new clients soon.

Maybe in a few months in that case,

I'd be more working on media and I was thinking I do want to still coach.

I still might coach one day a week,

But or in spurts or something,

But I kind of think I want to train coaches to handle the leads.

I'm getting and like find a couple people.

I really trust why no can help people and give them like maybe like an apprenticeship or internship and like half like this is a someone gets my stamp of approval.

And yeah,

That's my hope.

Can I can I ask about the TV show?

Yeah.

This is a big tangent.

I don't know how much you know about my past how much you've read about me,

But I was in a cult for a couple years and I've heard whispers.

Okay from you.

So yes,

But yeah,

Yeah,

You know,

I mean,

I'm very open about it.

I had a pretty positive experience actually and this organization is kind of going under right now.

Actually funny story.

They had their closing party last night and most people would say that I'm part of the reason why they're closing doors.

I went to their closing party because I kind of just wanted to what was it?

What kind of cult was it?

It's called one taste.

It's a it's an Inc 5000 company that teaches about sexuality.

Wait one taste is a cult.

Oh,

Yeah,

Dude.

I was going to go to one taste sessions.

Yeah.

I mean their intro class is great.

I still was I was recommending it up until they closed doors.

If you I mean,

It's a good class.

They teach quality stuff.

In fact,

I did my coaching program with them.

They got they launched my career in many ways.

They also did a lot of dark stuff on top of that.

Wow.

But anyway to answer your question after that I got a bunch of exposure because I'm one of the few people with the balls to actually have stated my experience not anonymously and a couple production companies reached out to me about hosting a television show about cults.

And wow,

I'm one of the few people I think in the world who can speak positively about his experience.

So you know,

And I'm very lucid like I yeah,

I mean I can explain everything that happened and how brainwashing works pretty clearly and I'm not damaged from it or anything.

So wow.

Wow,

Man.

This this was this is like a I am fascinated by this experience.

I want to ask more questions about it,

But maybe another time we can dig into that more.

Yeah episode to sound like we're doing a podcast.

This might actually be fun as a show.

One of my favorite articles that you've written was it was I can't remember the exact title,

But it was about a cult and I've read it a few times.

How to brainwash people or how to get people to join your cult.

How to get people to join your cult.

Yeah,

And you and you had I think it was four main points to it.

What did you say it was like meet them on their terms?

It was identity.

Was it like identify a pain point and then expose a pain point validate their reality.

Validate their reality.

That was the first point.

The last point was really care about them.

Yeah,

And I forget.

Oh,

I'd be willing to walk away.

I think was one of them be willing to walk away.

Yeah.

I thought that that was a really interesting point to put it because per our attachment theory discussions that triggers anxiety in people.

It's like I don't need like when you don't need them.

They're willing to step forward.

Yeah,

That's such a trip.

That is such a true in dating.

It's true in parenting is true leadership.

What's up with that man?

Why that's that pisses me off that that's how it's like you it's like you're not allowed to.

Well,

I shouldn't even say this.

It feels like that.

It's like you find something you really want to invest in but then there's a part of your brain.

It's like I'm not I shouldn't invest in it too much because I have to like maintain power or maintain like allegiance.

Like is that um,

Well,

I think that's the that's like the correction period like I'm reading.

I'm reading like a pickup book right now out of curiosity and the rational male.

Oh,

I've heard it's a mossy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's actually pretty good.

There's a lot of stuff that I would even I would call it misogyny.

But I think there's a lot of good stuff is very rational.

But why did I bring this up?

Oh,

Because I can he teaches people to like I guess to be a player right which I'm not into.

However,

All those traits are things that actual comp confident people do.

It's like if a leader is begging you to join them or he's giving you extra special attention.

It probably means he's not a lot of good shit going on.

It probably is not he's not focused on his mission.

He's not focused on actually taking care of the group,

Which is why we're drawn to the people.

They don't give us the time of day because they must be up to something good.

So it's not always true and it's kind of like it may be a primitive thing,

But it's there's a reason why same thing with attraction.

Like anyone who doesn't need us and has options is probably attractive probably has some good stuff going on.

Yeah,

And you know,

It's what's interesting about that too.

Is that it's not really necessarily about the words that you say though,

Because you can because this is kind of tying into neediness,

Right?

It's like if you invest in someone's perception of you more than your perception of yourself,

You are needy and therefore unattractive.

But like you can go up to someone and tell them.

I mean as we've already talked about but it would be like,

You know,

Like I think that you're beautiful or whatever it is.

And if you're saying it from a place of just like that's a that is investing in them in a big way more than they've invested in you,

But you're doing it from a place that isn't looking.

For their approval or for like not saying it out of hopes that they'll you does that you know what I'm saying?

Yeah,

So I would actually I would actually reword that I'd say the the most secure way to do it is you're not investing in them at all.

You're saying hey,

You're beautiful because it's fun to say hey,

You're beautiful.

Yeah,

And like I just had this abundance of appreciation to give to a beautiful human being.

There's that for beauty for booty.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Like yeah,

That's it.

You get this abundance to give it just feels good to give it.

Hey,

Man,

You were on a date last week,

Right?

I've been on a few.

I don't know.

Okay.

Well,

My bad.

How's the dating life going?

I was just telling someone this recent like today a few hours ago.

I have a bunch of like low impact relationships that I feel like are kind of at my fingertips for a lack of I mean,

I know I sound probably really arrogant when I say that but what do you mean by low?

Like they're not super meaningful.

They're not moving me.

I'm kind of almost indifferent.

It kind of seemed interchangeable in a way.

I don't mean to be that it's not like I don't appreciate them.

But like it's not like a is I don't feel invested and it's just fun.

And this is kind of what I wanted for myself when I was younger and I'm already feeling like,

Yeah,

This is cool is better than nothing.

It's certainly better than not having dates.

Right,

But I almost like don't care and I do want something deeper,

But I want a very specific something and I'm willing to play around until then until I did until that crosses my radar.

Yeah,

I feel like that's exactly like like verbatim what I'm going through right now.

We haven't had like another session since our last session right?

But like gosh,

Like yeah,

I've got like two girls that I'm seeing right now and they're not like they don't like wow me and there's a part of me that's kind of like well shit like this is better than nothing.

But is it if I'm settling for this or if I'm not really engaging in something that I really like then am I creating a habit within myself of not going for what I actually want,

You know,

Like is this somehow are you not going for something or are you just having fun?

Well,

I don't maybe maybe that's it.

Maybe I don't know if this is just me or if this is like a temperamental thing with people.

Yeah,

But maybe fun especially to creatives.

I would assume involves depth.

I think that creative people tend to respond to depth and at least for me in relationships,

Like if I don't have a depth with a woman emotional depth it starts to feel like anemic if that makes sense.

Yeah,

I would say something that might even counter what I just said about myself.

So it might be a big oxymoron contradicting myself or something.

But something I do love from the Tantra world one perspective.

I love is that is the idea of you but you practice the verb of loving like you learn it just it doesn't matter.

It's not about the relationship is that you are practicing having an abundance of love to love someone with or love people with and a lot of those people tend to be like Polly and Mike very out there and stuff and that's different.

But like I do I do kind of cherish that even in a low impact relationship.

I think there's something very that could be very nourishing as opposed to like compulsion,

But it kind of depends on how you're going about it.

Yeah,

I hear what you're saying that can be I guess it depends on the intention that you have and in Canada.

Yes,

You're talking about like falling in love during like a one-night stand.

I think that's beautiful and it's a beautiful like it's a beautiful thing.

Like so you to have opened yourself so deeply that you can just pour love on this person that you don't even know.

That might even be a terrible person.

But like just the fact that you can do that is awesome.

The only thing is making sure you do it in a way that you remain secure and you don't do something bad for yourself.

Yeah,

It's interesting.

We talked about this a little bit too.

Like the when when you are able to like bring all of yourself to somebody and they're sitting there responding to it and you can tell that you're really affecting them.

What trips me up is that you know,

The Sun rises again and it's a new day.

Like you kind of just made some promises the night before with how awesome we're together.

It's like that's a that's what I've noticed with this other one.

Like we've been continuing to stay together,

But it's kind of like hey,

You know,

I'm I'm not I don't think I'm falling in love with you anymore.

It's like it's like date number three.

It's like,

You know,

And then I feel a little bit of guilt of how but I realized it was really just my projections.

Like I was in love with the projections of who the person could have been in that moment,

But not who the person is actually materializing or showing themselves to be which isn't bad.

It's just kind of like,

You know,

So yes,

You can learn to pour love on the person.

She actually is and even if it doesn't go anywhere that deep that's cool.

I mean,

It's fine.

Yeah,

Totally everyone's benefiting.

So it's a problem.

There isn't a problem I suppose.

Okay,

So we've got a little bit of time.

I think we're only supposed to go in half an hour,

But this has been I mean,

I'm enjoying it.

So I mean we can go until I get bored or you get bored.

Well,

Let's I want to wrap it up with this.

Do I want to wrap it up with this?

Did I already ask this question?

I think I already accidentally wrapped it up.

Let's see here.

This is just a question that I have but we you obviously read a lot and you're obviously a good writer.

So is there any specific books that you would I don't know.

Is there any books that you read specifically about coaching and is there any books that you would advise that everybody read just to fundamentally understand relationships or their life better like your total five.

I don't read a ton of self-help anymore,

But I've read a ton in that genre.

I think I gained the most reading fiction now honestly,

But let me think General Theory of Love was very big from my perspective.

I don't know.

I have to think about that.

The Zen of the Art of Motorcycle Bateness affected me a lot,

But I don't recommend it to most people the first hundred pages are kind of rough.

Yeah,

I think I just have to get through the threshold on that book.

I think yeah,

Yeah,

But I read a lot of fiction now and I and I find oh,

It's a good that's actually I just read a book by W.

Somerset Maugham of Human Bondage is a very long novel.

It's kind of like Great Expectations,

But he hits on I think again,

Like to the entertainment thing like self-help is a genre of entertainment.

Entertainment is a genre of self-help.

I think too like every movie structure that a screenwriter learns is basically teaching a journey of improvement and I think there's a lot of lessons wrapped up in fiction and I actually think in the future that's how I want to help people more.

Like I'm writing a book about my cults era and I think there'll be a lot of self-help themes that I'll kind of hide in the narrative and I think that'll reach more people who wouldn't read a self-help book.

Hmm.

That's interesting.

How far are you into the book?

I mean,

I've been writing it for seven years,

But I mean part of the time I was in it and taking notes part of the time I was recovering and only really recently I've been writing writing but I have about 10% that I've of the book that I feel very good about.

So I think yeah,

I think if TV goes well,

I'll get a book deal and I can finish the book and then that'll be it.

They'll get that other 90% down as soon as possible.

Yeah,

Well the 10% that I really like I wrote in about a month of like very focused.

I gave myself a month to do nothing but write the book and I wrote this 10% I feel proud of.

Before that I had like 400 pages of content that is just disorganized and not very polished and stuff.

Yeah,

And you probably did in spurts right?

Right here and there and yeah,

Yeah,

You were talking about that earlier like focusing on one thing and yeah,

I told you that my contract's ending but I was thinking about taking a month of just writing.

I'm just trying to finish out this we talked about the e-book thing.

So yeah,

Cool,

Man.

Well,

Hey,

Thank you so much for your time.

This was super fun to learn more about your coaching details here.

So awesome,

Man.

Yeah,

We'll do episode 2.

Yeah,

I was thinking about this is I don't know if I actually think this would be really fun as a podcast.

Maybe with guests or maybe not or maybe just us having conversations.

Like I think there's a lot of value in this and I know you're not sure about your finances next month.

So I don't know what it would look like but I'd be open to something.

Some sort of trade of time or something that if it could benefit me,

I'd be happy to worry work something out.

Yeah,

Let's talk about that offline.

But but I love the idea of turning.

I think I'm about to say something honest.

So this is going to be really easy to say.

I think that I think that you're a really good coach and I think that people that watch how you speak and how you think are going to benefit from it because of a because you've been doing it for seven years,

But be just because I think you just have a natural aptitude for it.

So anytime you want to do a podcast or whether it's with me or with a group of people,

I think that if you post it people are going to get a lot of benefit out of it.

And if you wanted to make that like a consistent monthly thing,

I'd be I'd be happy to participate.

Cool.

Awesome,

Man.

Well,

We'll be in touch about it.

Okay.

All right,

Everyone.

Talk to you later,

Brother.

All right later.

Thanks for listening.

Don't forget to subscribe on iTunes or stitcher.

If you want to be a part of the virtual audience for future episodes,

Make sure to follow me at crowdcast.

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See you next time.

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