Matthew Silver: Sacred Clown

Matthew Silver "The Man in the White Dress" is a world-renowned performance artist based in NYC. When I live in New York I saw him a few times performing on the street or in subways, and initially thought he was homeless, not recognizing the spiritual genius behind his work. We recorded this right after he made news by doing a group pubic performance on the street nude.

Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Rwanda podcast.

This is another episode from The Vault.

You can see it's episode negative two.

These are the 15 conversations I stole from my old podcast because I thought they were great and I wanted them to still be listened to.

So this is with Matthew Silver,

The great entertainer.

If you've ever been to New York and seen the street musicians,

You may have seen Matthew.

He was probably wearing a diaper.

He's got a big beard.

He's probably saying nonsense words.

And Matthew,

As opposed to what many people think,

Is not homeless.

He's not crazy.

He's actually a performer and he's got a huge following online actually.

But what's so great about his performance is that it doesn't really make sense to most people.

It's pure performance art in that everything is improvised and everything is formless and that gets a pretty polarizing reaction from people.

And I became interested in his stuff not just because it's like simply entertaining but he really embodies the archetype of the sacred clown.

The sacred clown is this idea of a medicine man mainly coming from like the Lakota Indians where they have the spiritual leader known as the Hiyoka who basically does the opposite of what people do.

He's kind of a jester but he's also a spiritual leader to show people how their constructs of the world aren't as important or not as serious as they might think.

He reminds or she could remind people that like life is about living and loving and enjoying yourself and you don't have to worry about your lattes so much.

So I spoke with Matthew here some time ago now.

I think it's maybe two years ago.

But I spoke with him right after he had done a performance art piece called Noodling where him and some other improvisers were nude.

They're naked men and women doing random looping it's called.

It's this like improvised clowning game where you kind of just do whatever and feed off of group energy.

It was written about extensively in media mainly because there were these like eight adults being stark naked in the middle of New York City on the street and no one could do anything.

And there's no obscenity complaints because they're performing an art which is cool but also it shows something really great about him challenging social norms and deconstructing this idea that life is super serious because it's not.

So I'll let him speak for himself of course.

I want to mention that the sound quality isn't amazing on this because this is another episode,

Another recording that I was planning on turning into an interview but it was so good that I decided to turn it into a podcast.

So this is episode negative two from The Vault,

Matthew Silver,

Sacred Clown.

You're listening to the Ruwando podcast,

Perpetual orgasm,

Infinite play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

Sometimes you meet so many people you don't remember how you met anybody anymore.

And then all of a sudden you're just in that loop,

Looping.

That's what I like.

The things you like about a city are also the things you don't like.

I don't know.

There's always going to be things you like.

What about a city?

Yeah because you lose your memory in a city.

There's just over,

You know,

There's so much stimuli.

Yeah.

There's so many happenings.

There's so many performances,

Shows,

Venues,

Possibilities.

Cities is compressed like even one,

Did you,

What apartment?

Did you live at the elder apartment?

No,

I lived on Park Street.

Did you live in a building?

No,

It was a walk-up.

Oh,

It was a walk-up.

Yeah.

You lived in an apartment building with Wally's loss,

Which I did for about three,

Four years.

You were just,

That's the whole village right there.

Wherever you go,

I mean,

A block is a village,

A building is a village,

A venue is a village.

So you're all,

We're all,

I don't know.

How long have you been in New York?

I'd say this is maybe the ninth year or tenth.

I don't remember anymore.

Cool.

And were you performing right for when you got here?

Actually,

When did you start performing?

I started performing,

Well,

I hate to say it,

But the initial performance was inspired by marijuana.

And the whole thing,

Concept of looping is to reawaken that inner child without having any,

There was no,

Nobody was on drugs when you saw that.

It's anti,

It's not anti-drug,

It's just pro,

Be,

Oh silly,

Wacky,

Inner child person.

Be animalistic,

Something that,

We judge savagery,

We judge the nude body.

But what were you saying was your question?

When did you start performing?

I started performing nine years ago and unfortunately was inspired by marijuana.

And I was,

At first I was showing off to friends like how weird I can be.

And I felt like I was in a metaphysical reality.

And then eventually I stopped messing around with marijuana and just did it on my own.

So you don't smoke anymore?

Yeah,

I don't smoke now because I have breathing problems.

Probably because I might have smoked too much.

But I'm still doing it.

And I guess the nude looping was the peak of everything I've done for the last 10 years.

Gotcha.

I mean,

I would never imagine that we could perform nude in public and the police were there,

But none of us was arrested because art,

The law of art or freedom of speech was protecting us.

Because the cops were definitely confused.

I was listening to them talking to each other.

They weren't sure,

They couldn't do anything or they weren't sure what to do.

The only thing was to clear the sidewalk.

Clear pedestrian traffic.

Yeah.

And people kept asking them,

Is it illegal?

And they were like,

Oh yeah,

It's totally illegal.

And then they just kept watching you guys.

Yeah,

Exactly.

It wasn't illegal.

And it was illegal and you're allowed to do that.

You're more likely to get arrested if you're by yourself naked.

Because I think it's just a statement in general,

An artistic statement in general,

To show walk around naked.

It's art.

It's a statement.

It's a statement about the world that we live in.

Cover up.

Hide your body.

I mean,

In reality,

We should be all walking around naked.

And if we were to see our naked bodies,

Then we start to realize that there's something wrong with everybody's body.

But because we cover them up,

We hide our inconsistencies or the things that aren't perfect with us.

And it's almost like it builds this conflict with judgment.

You're hiding yourself,

But anybody exposing themselves,

You judge.

Yeah.

But what you're doing is very different than nudism,

Right?

It's not like.

.

.

No.

I wouldn't say it's nudism.

I would say it's art and experimental of the human spirit and to inspire adventure.

It was about adventure.

And we knew the police would come,

But we didn't know when.

And we were out there and that was a little adventure.

Like the police came and we did it.

The secrets got us to all go around the whole block one more time before we ended it.

Was the reason you ended because the cops were there?

No,

I feel like we were out there for two hours.

It was a good finale anyway.

People were walking around naked afterwards and the cops.

.

.

And it was legal what we're doing was connected to an art gallery.

If you're going to ask a cop,

He's not going to give you a truthful answer because they don't want a trend of naked people walking around and stuff.

Because anyone can justify its art,

Right?

That's true.

But I have a history of being an artist.

Because I have a history,

I'm more justifiable than the average person.

I'm not an average person anymore.

I've been doing this stuff and I don't know what to do with it.

I don't know if we should do more public nude events.

I feel like we should.

But I'm not specifically a nudist.

But I also feel there's this part of me that feels like,

Alright already,

We should just get over it already.

Get over having.

.

.

We're at that edge.

We're at the age of Aquarius.

I almost think we have to get over the physical world in order to be more connected to the spiritual world.

And if we were to walk around and see everybody's naked,

Maybe we wouldn't see.

.

.

I mean,

By theory,

Maybe we wouldn't see the naked body anymore.

We would start seeing the soul,

The spirit.

That's the thing,

That's actually the angle I really want to portray you in.

The whole thing around the.

.

.

I guess you were kind of going for a sacred clown thing,

Although you didn't use the word sacred in your website at all.

I should change my artist statement.

Yes,

Sacred clown.

I mean,

I didn't do massive studying.

I just studied a lot of Wikipedia articles and I read this book on clowns.

It was amazing.

On the internet,

You find out that there was actually sacred clown like the.

.

.

Damn it,

I forgot what the clown tribe was.

It's the Lakota Indians.

Lakota.

Like black elk?

Hiyoka.

Yeah,

Hiyoka.

Hiyoka clown.

It's like a black and white.

.

.

There's this clown that's a black and white image.

Yeah,

That inspired me.

This is what I've been going for,

Just black and white.

What's funny about it,

It's like the core meaning of the trickster.

We live in this.

.

.

We're getting better,

But we still.

.

.

Too many of us are black and white,

Good or bad.

That's not how we should be.

And I do that all the time.

I'm black and white.

I don't mean to be,

But we're a trickster.

A trickster.

And our real identity is not black or white.

We're not good or bad.

We're in between.

So black and white is.

.

.

And they wear this black and white thing.

It's like the trickster is the god that's in between gods.

It's the in-betweener.

It's the portal of the spirit world and the real world.

It's the portal between what's good and what's bad.

It's the portal between what's male and female.

It's almost like the trickster almost has to.

.

.

I started to see myself when I was doing this research,

I started to see myself as a trickster.

And what I had to do was open the portal so we don't think by the brain anymore,

Like black and white.

The brain is cut and we think by the heart.

But in a way,

I trapped myself in another division.

The other division I created was between the brain and the heart.

And now I'm like,

The heart is good,

The brain is bad.

And I caught myself in the same game.

You know what I mean?

But in a way,

We're thinking too much and we're not being.

We're not being here now.

Editing,

Making these projects involves a lot of thinking.

But you're trying to think with your heart,

It sounds like.

Or make those to be one thing or blur the lines there.

Just blur the line.

Blur the line.

The problem with the machine and the way capitalism is growing,

It's growing through the mind,

Not through the heart.

It's growing on intellect,

Like the economy is this massive mind game that too many people believe in.

I mean,

The dollar bill,

You know,

It's a religion.

Because why is it saying,

God we trust on the dollar bill?

People believe in this.

And if I were to rip this in front of hardworking citizens.

Anything for you?

Just holding the bill?

Why?

No,

It's the.

.

.

I'm just,

Well,

I don't think.

.

.

It's just,

You know.

.

.

It's more than,

You know,

People's hearts are in the money,

In a weird way.

We've tricked ourselves.

We're stuck.

We're stuck in the mind.

The mind grows attachments to things.

We're attached to making money.

Even I'm attached to making money.

And it's a massive scale.

And in a weird way,

It's a trick.

And the trickster,

I always saw myself as a trickster,

Trying to break this bubble.

Kind of a fun trick.

Fun trick.

But I feel I've been doing this for nine years and I haven't really achieved my goal.

Because it's probably ridiculous to even try it.

It's not me for me to do it.

It's not anybody alone to do it.

But I feel you have to set your intentions strong and let the cosmic universe do all the work around you,

No matter who you are.

It always is.

And I have a strong intention to wake up the global heart through my work.

The money thing,

Though,

Is.

.

.

I know you've said a lot about fears and stuff,

But it's a really hard thing to get over.

In transcendental moments,

I'm like,

Oh yeah,

Money isn't.

.

.

Why am I worrying about money?

It's just so not a thing.

But then you drop back into material reality and suddenly.

.

.

How do you work with that fear as an individual or an artist?

When I'm performing,

It's not there.

Money is about being in the moment,

But when it's.

.

.

Wait,

Can you ask the question again?

Actually,

Going off of that,

When you're not performing,

You're trying to bring everyone into this state that you're in when you're performing almost.

I feel like I'm feeling.

.

.

Sorry?

What?

You said you feel like a.

.

.

Sometimes I feel like I've failed.

But it's ridiculous.

I've been hard on myself.

I want to bring people into the moment and stuff,

But at the same time,

I'm having my own difficulties being in the moment.

Sometimes I have constant thoughts about.

.

.

Ridiculous thoughts about trying to make a living and what's my future going to be like after this year or whatever.

But that's just human.

That's just what everybody has.

But it would be nice if.

.

.

I'm on the all-for awakening of the global heart,

Like a shift in consciousness.

I think I have to realize that I'm not.

.

.

I just have to do my part.

I feel like doing the nude looping was our part.

It was a collaboration with Fritz Donnelly.

You saw the mustache guy?

Yeah.

He did a couple episodes of beard and mustache.

Oh,

Cool.

But I feel like we did our part.

We did the best we could do.

The only thing now is do we do another nude looping or individual movie projects or.

.

.

I don't know.

The thing about the internet.

.

.

I'm editing this.

The thing about the internet,

The video reaches a broader audience than just doing it in the public.

Maybe a few hundred people saw us,

Maybe 300,

400 people,

Passer-goers saw us that day for two hours or whatever.

But if I put something on the internet of the nude looping,

I guess about 20,

000 people will see that video.

Because you have a pretty big following online.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's weird because the following is spread out around the world.

It's not like it's a group.

It's around the world.

People like me.

.

.

Look at me.

It's people like me on the computer.

But it did experience Sunday.

.

.

Was it Friday?

Saturday.

Saturday I did experience a real world experience without computer and technology,

But technology was there.

We were all being videotaped and stuff.

But what was your original question?

I don't even remember.

Something about making a living.

Like is that the thing?

When you said you feel like you're not doing it,

Is it the pressure of making a living as an artist that is taking you out of the moment?

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah.

Okay.

Do you make your living from performing right now?

Sometimes.

Okay.

Sometimes.

So I'm curious about,

You're saying trying to get into that state or bring people into living into that state that you're in and performing.

I was curious to know if you're like that all the time or if there's a part of you that's like that all the time.

Do you try to be like that when you're not in front of an audience too?

Like where you're just completely embodied and following your impulses?

Is that something you try to live?

I'll tell you,

This is a funny thing.

If I throw away,

Like the more I'm doing these bigger projects and stuff,

I'm trying to focus on getting everybody here at a certain time.

I'm trying to focus on orchestrating,

Organizing it,

Making it work out for everybody,

Making sure everybody is in a good way and stuff.

The more out of the moment I am.

And it's funny because the project is about being in the moment.

And I want to be part of that looping,

But what makes me feel good though is that other people who were part of the looping were in the moment more so than I was.

I was in the moment the best I could be.

Fritz,

I almost feel like Fritz is better at it.

I've been doing this for nine years performing in the street and when it's simple,

When it's simple,

When all I have is a cardboard sign and just me in my underwear.

It's simple.

There's nothing I have to worry about.

There's some documentaries about me and they wanted to document me,

But that was after I did it for a year and a half.

And they caught me in the moment.

But the more you get,

Like I got attention,

As soon as I got attention,

I almost feel like there's a responsibility to show people better work and stuff.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So it's like the price of fame.

No,

I'm just making a note.

Yeah.

It's like the price of fame.

Yeah,

But I'm not even that famous too.

Maybe I couldn't handle it all altogether.

I keep doing it.

I'm consistent.

I'm proud of myself.

I do the best I can.

And that's all we can ask for for any human.

You do the best you can and you stay forward with what you think.

Free will.

You have free will.

I feel like the things that make you feel the best are following your bliss,

Following through your heart.

I felt very good on Saturday.

So that other piece,

Though,

Being a manager,

Orchestrator,

Do you think that's a necessary part of being a human?

What?

Where you have to not be in the moment for a second to just organize the structure.

It is so being human.

It's like the trap that everybody's in.

I want to be free.

I want to be dancing around.

But my mother is a great example.

As soon as she had children and a house,

My dad was in charge of all the management of just having a family.

And it took her out of the moment.

So there were times where you wouldn't be able to have conversations with my mother as easily as it took her out of the moment.

And that's probably what every single family is dealing with.

Not just my mother,

Not just me.

It's human because we're all being sucked in by this machine.

The machine is like this unconscious entity.

It's not as conscious as we think.

We think somebody's really controlling the machine,

But nobody is.

There's all these forces running against each other.

We're all running against each other because my project is better than your project.

And then everybody doesn't know a project to focus on.

And you've got to become your own identity or not.

Where it feels like you're in competition when you're not really in competition.

And then you're like,

Help me,

Help me,

I need help.

And we're all struggling with that.

So we want to break free.

And I just saw this documentary on Terence,

The acid guy?

Terence McKenna.

And he said,

There's the machine and then there's art.

And the art is,

People should just produce works from the heart as much as they can.

And that's a massive movement that nobody will make any money,

But will send great energy and feelings.

That's what a movement is.

It sends these great energies and feelings,

But nobody's making any money.

So it's counter,

Because nobody makes any money,

Nobody forwards a movement because they're forgetting about why we're on this planet for.

And we're due for a movement real soon.

Something because we're- A silly revolution?

A silly revolution.

Why do you say silly revolution?

I heard you use that word before.

I didn't use it.

Somebody else used it.

Yeah,

I mean,

I just did it and they made the word and then I- Oh,

Okay.

But maybe that's it,

Like a silly,

Silly revolution.

So it's kind of like,

I can see where it's difficult because to have a movement is kind of like a machine,

Kind of like you're forward thinking and planning.

You have to plan out a movement.

Exactly.

You have to think.

It's like you're in the machine.

You can't just do it because everybody's in the machine,

So everybody sucked in it.

Everybody's like,

I could definitely be there,

I could definitely be there,

I'll definitely do this.

We did this big project and we had people who said they were going to film who didn't show up to film.

And then somebody showed up to film and I didn't even know they were going to show up,

But their footage was the best footage.

And it's like,

Nobody's making money on this project.

The gallery did not make money.

Fritz or me didn't make money.

Any of the video makers didn't make money.

It's totally organic and grassroots.

Now it's just like the whole Burning Man.

Do you know Burning Man?

The first Burning Man was not to make money and they kept doing it.

And then it built and now the last one is to money making.

It got sucked into the machine.

Capitalism because capitalism is,

I mean we're all,

That's it.

That's the religion right now.

Whether we like it or not.

Now how do you,

I mean I don't know,

A good question to ask is how do you,

You accept that you're part of this machine but you're not like defying the machine.

You're not saying it's bad,

Capitalism is bad,

Fashion is bad.

You just enter in new ways of being.

How does it shift?

How does it shift?

How do we,

What's the thing that's going to crack the egg?

And I mean I shouldn't wrap my head around that equation because there is no equation for that.

I should just continue,

The only thing that will help is by people continuing doing art for art's sake without any financial gain or prestige gain or anything.

So you're kind of like trying to get enough people to stop caring about the value of money so it just becomes valueless?

No I mean I'm not,

I can't do that.

You know I can't,

That just seems,

I can't get,

I'm not going to convince you that the value of money is,

There's no value in the value of money.

But I can only,

If I'm like anti-money then I've made another duality,

Like a shift to like this,

These are the people who are for money,

These are the people who are not for money.

The people for not for money have jobs and they've got to make money to support their family.

So that's a ridiculous,

Another ridiculous duality.

I can only inspire people,

Our job as an artist,

You're an artist right?

Our job as an artist is just to inspire people to do art for art's sake without getting the prestige.

We didn't really get anybody,

We didn't really tell any press about what we did.

There was no major press there or whatever,

It was seen as a public thing.

So a movement,

I want to inspire a movement.

But I have to get over the idea that I'm not,

Because there's this ego that wants me to be the one to be the catalyst,

But I'm not the catalyst.

And even when there's somebody who's pointed the finger to as the catalyst,

He's not,

He's a part of,

Or he or she is a part of the catalyst,

But the real catalyst is actually a group.

It's not,

It's more organic.

These videos and these pictures and the media has to,

You as a writer,

You have to pick an angle.

You're more of an artist because you're picking the perspective that you want the audience to see and what you feel is closest to your heart is something that's going to wake up the world.

You want to create something interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah,

And I think it gets frustrating sometimes when the interesting,

You start going for that reaction and then you kind of,

Like the whole ego stuff you just mentioned becomes like a trap in itself.

Yes.

And we all have one.

We all have an ego.

And I guess I'm originally doing this,

I wanted to escape my ego and I did for moments at a time.

I was just out there not giving a shit what anybody thought and I got used to people saying you're gross,

You're disgusting.

You know what I mean?

It's just like people pushing off that energy and not taking it personally.

But after that,

It's like you go to bed and you're alone and you have your own thoughts about where am I taking this,

Where do I want to be in the next five years.

You have things about your identity?

I don't know.

I don't relate to my identity as much as I see myself,

You know,

Sometimes I have these moments where I'm depressed but I don't identify to my depression or I don't identify.

You choose what you want to identify with.

You have free will and I identify myself with the spirit of joy,

The spirit,

The light.

And that's how everybody should identify themselves.

The depression is something that will,

We all get depressed.

Depression is something that will go.

You always come back to the moment,

Peace,

Joy.

But pain is necessary for everybody to grow.

Even if you,

Pain is just as important as happiness.

Sometimes pain creates greater,

A deeper happiness.

Because you start to appreciate small things.

You start to appreciate when someone says to you good job out of nowhere.

You appreciate,

Because big things are like trying to save the world is ridiculous.

It's fun to inspire to do that but it's also ridiculous.

Nobody can save the world.

I mean the only person you can save is yourself.

Do you think the world needs saving?

No.

The world doesn't need saving.

But I think we're better off if we learn to shift our way of thinking.

And I guess to simplify that I mean less with the brain,

More with the heart.

Use the brain to support the heart.

We're creatures of love.

We're not creatures of,

It's unnatural for us to inspire fear in others.

It's more natural in us to inspire love and joy in others.

And we're at the age of Aquarius.

We're at a time where we're fed up with this negative way of life.

It's time to inspire this.

We're at the tipping point.

I believe that we're at the tipping point.

What do you think is going to tip?

What?

What do you think the tipping point,

Like what is it?

What are we going to tip into?

We're going,

When we tip,

We're going to accept the way everything is and not be like struggling anymore.

And our actions are going to be actions of love rather than actions of,

We're doing things out of fear.

You know what I mean?

Like you're doing this out of love.

You came here to interview me out of love,

You know,

For the love of what you,

Your work and just to get to know somebody or something.

And we have to,

It's like love is this paradox.

We have to realize all the things we're already doing out of love.

We're already,

The love portal is here.

The love,

The global awakening is here.

We just have to be aware of it.

That's,

I mean,

That's kind of what Terence McKenna said.

You just have to,

Like there's,

We cannot,

Like I don't know why I always say save the world but that's what inspires me when I do a project.

So it makes it adventurous.

Like doing that nude thing was my attempt,

Collaborative attempt to save the world with Fritz Donnelly and the Rivington Design House or whatever.

But um,

There's nothing we can control in life.

You can't control anything.

The only thing you can control is the way you perceive it.

And I got a base,

If I want to save the world I got to save myself.

So I'm just another confused motherfucker dude.

I,

You know,

I talk to you like I'm having this mental breakdown but I just have to be aware of like the world is,

Like wow,

You came here to interview me about what we did and I,

What we did was great.

It's great.

What everybody's doing is great and you,

People are,

You know,

Just don't get,

I guess just don't get caught in the judgement game.

People are going to judge anyway,

You know.

But don't,

Never take anything personal,

You know the four agreements from that book.

Never take anything personal.

Always do your best.

Be impeccable with your word.

And never make assumptions.

And you'll go far,

You know.

It's all about,

Cause everything you're doing in your life,

You have to realize that everything you're doing in your life is perfect.

The only thing you have to change is your perception.

You cannot control a single thing.

You change your perception and,

You know,

Whatever action you take you bring that light perception to it.

So how has your perception changed through doing your work?

How has my perception changed?

Yeah.

Um.

So also how has your identity changed?

Like did you always have a beard or was it part of your act that became your life?

Last two years I've been growing it.

Okay.

I always wanted to see what I would look like with hair for five years.

I really want to shave this.

And I might shave it in a year.

But I keep saying I'll give it three more years.

My identity,

I don't see myself.

I just see myself as,

I know I'm above average from the average human being because I'm consistent with these projects that continue to leave people questioning about life.

You mean compared to other performance artists?

No.

I don't compare myself to others.

I'm just saying to the average person.

Okay.

I'm no better than anybody else.

I don't think that.

I'm just another artist doing this thing.

But I don't know.

I have a need to make big ripples.

I mean at least until I'm dead.

I'm getting a little exhausted and burned out.

I have no idea why.

Maybe it's because of all the hours I put on the street.

Maybe I burned out my body.

That's what I'm thinking.

But I'm constantly tired.

I don't have a good sleep schedule.

So I mean I am doing a lot of work but I can always be doing more.

I guess.

Sorry I just felt some weird thing in my brain.

I'm also a hypochondriac or not.

I don't know.

That just felt weird.

I felt like I was going to have a stroke or something.

Just now?

Yeah.

And here it goes again.

I don't like that feeling.

Did you think you're coming up to a change point or a transition point?

I might be doing.

I've already started and I might be doing more films.

But they're going to be public films.

And I feel like adventurous to do a public nude film.

And now I know if there were like five naked people I'd get away with it.

I'd say this is an art project.

I have the law to protect me right now.

Are you afraid of getting too big?

Too big?

I'm not going to get too big.

I'm not the status quo.

I already performed naked at Times Square.

I just went naked again.

Anybody who does that is not going to get conventionally big.

You make a risk by being nude in today's world.

It's not what the world wants.

I'm also with this guy in his underwear.

People already judge me.

Even though I've been around the world,

People are like,

I don't get it.

He's in his underwear and it's weird.

And children might not like that.

But I've interacted with children.

Not only that,

Children,

It's just like not every child likes it.

But then a lot of children do like it.

A lot of children just dance around naked or in their underwear.

So whoever you are,

People are going to like what you do or not like what you do.

But I'm not in today's world,

I'm not conventional,

But I am at the edge of the spectrum of change.

I'm at the edge of the new age,

Which is Aquarius.

I'm with all those weird artist-type people.

We do what we do out of love because not everybody likes what we do.

I could see you having a TV show or something.

People would watch.

I would love a TV show.

I would love,

I would do it.

What were you going to say?

Sorry.

That was it.

What would you say to being somewhere closer to mass media or mainstream something,

If only as like a spectacle?

Yeah.

And if I get the opportunity,

I wouldn't necessarily say no.

I work one-on-one with who the creators of the program are and make sure it goes with my vision.

I mean,

That's what we all do is,

Yeah.

Maybe I'll be,

Maybe that'll happen.

Maybe not.

But I'll never be that big.

I'll never be so big as to be out of control.

I'll always be more or less that guy.

Have you ever thought of what it would be like if you were just like in character 24 7?

I tried to do that.

I mean,

I was trying to do that when I was performing on the street.

I ended up burning myself.

Because it was tiring?

Well,

I killed my voice.

I did it for eight hours.

I killed my voice and my back and my neck keeps falling apart.

I noticed you have a certain kind of posture you get into,

Kind of like the stamping.

Was that a planned thing or just a thing that happens every time?

Yeah,

No,

It happened over time.

It's like my mimicking of the inner child.

The mimicking of a child,

An adult acting like a child.

Gotcha.

Yeah,

So I've seen something about,

I was listening to a thing about Andrew Dice Clay about how,

He's a regular Jewish guy from Brooklyn,

But slowly he became his on stage persona where he just is Dice Clay now.

His old identity's gone.

Could you ever see that happening to you or are you just the clown?

I don't know,

Man.

I don't know.

If I was more in the media,

If I was in the.

.

.

That would affect me.

Andrew Dice,

Didn't he do his own movie?

Yeah,

Yeah,

I mean a bunch of stuff.

He was around.

A lot of people knew about him.

A lot of people don't know about me,

Even though a lot of people know about me.

I could shave my hair and it'll be fine.

I don't have a regular.

.

.

I mean,

I do this thing at Bazaar Bar once a month,

But I don't tour or do anything that Andrew Dice Clay did that sucked him in.

He was in the mainstream in a way and he got sucked into it.

I remember a lot of people were playing his tapes at one time and stuff.

I haven't heard of what Andrew Dice Clay has done now.

I just know that he is his character nonstop.

Oh,

He plays his character nonstop.

Yeah,

Because actually the whole reason why I was interested in talking to you is that the fool card and the tarot deck has always been my favorite,

What it represents.

And so it seemed like a great ideal,

But can anyone actually live that way?

It's great to see the gesture and remind yourself of that that's in you.

But maybe because of all the stuff we're talking about,

Everyone gets sucked into the machine and maybe that's just part of the human experience.

It's part of the human experience now for everybody.

The only people that could live like the fool are,

I mean,

Eccentric,

Wealthy people,

I guess.

What if you live in the jungle,

Like a tribe,

Tribes person?

Yeah,

That would work too.

I mean,

But we're all the fool,

You know?

I guess we shouldn't choose to identify with the machine or the struggle.

That's not who we truly are.

That's who we are in the moment.

You are who you are,

The part that you identify with the most.

And you're not even that.

The true nature of who you are,

Like you shouldn't identify with anything.

The true real nature of who you are is you're nothing.

You're constantly being recreated in the moment.

This is the moment.

Everything doesn't exist in the past and the future.

None of that exists.

It's like it's being written.

Your brain is constantly being changed.

You're organic.

Time doesn't exist.

If you choose to identify with something,

You're constantly bringing the past back and back and back.

But it's good to identify with love because then you bring more of that in your life,

Rather than identify with why things don't work out for you.

How did you start to feel this responsibility of waking people up for this mission?

What did you say?

Where did this mission to wake people up,

Get people to understand this come from,

As opposed to just knowing it yourself?

I always wanted to do what.

.

.

I used to watch a lot of David Letterman and Tom Green and Anna Kaufman and hear about artists like Jack Smith.

I always wanted to mess with the average person.

You see these videos with David Letterman's early work and it's really funny.

I always wanted to be a piece of that.

I was trying to do it without a video crew.

I got a little hot,

A little buzz from doing it.

Gotcha.

Are you still chasing that buzz or is that part of the burnout,

You think?

Is that.

.

.

What do you mean?

You said you're exhausted now.

Is that related to the buzz at all?

Is it not still a buzz?

No,

It's still a buzz.

I just did something on Saturday.

We all get exhausted.

I don't know.

Yeah,

It's still a buzz.

It's like it always comes back.

I should be doing this.

I should be doing this.

Do it,

Do it,

Do it,

Do it.

I do it and I do the next thing and I do the next thing.

So I've continued to gradually do it.

I was out on the street on and off nine years and I would just keep going,

Go back,

Go back,

Go back,

Go back.

The rewards,

I was not getting any big rewards.

The reward was an inside journey of figuring out who I am.

That's the biggest reward is the inside journey and who you are and to keep doing it.

You get tired,

You take a break,

You go back.

I do,

On the other hand,

I do need to get out of New York for three months.

I've been here for five years and the biggest vacation I took was one week.

Where are you going to go?

So maybe I'm burned out from that.

If I go,

I was thinking Mexico,

New Orleans,

California or Australia or a tour in England,

Just get out of here so I can reawaken my perspective to New York City,

The most amazing place to live.

Yeah,

I hear that.

I'm getting out of New York for the winter.

I'm just going to go on a road trip for three months.

So you're where?

I'm going down to Florida and then taking three months to come back,

Probably go all the way to California.

Oh,

Nice.

Yeah,

Or two months,

I'll see.

Maybe I'll get burnt out on the road and want to come home faster,

But who knows.

Cool,

Man.

Yeah,

I think this is awesome.

Is there any last thing you want to share about your philosophy or about the clown archetype?

If you're a human being and you're pissed off about the way the world is and stuff,

Immediately just stop whining.

Don't focus on the way,

The badness of the world,

The darkness.

It'll just create a bigger dark cloud for yourself and start experimenting.

Be an artist.

Start exploring the world and do things,

Not to necessarily make money,

But things that will expand yours and the people around you,

Expand their consciousness and the way they think about things.

And don't look back.

If you're young and you're upset at the world,

Take the voyage instead of regretting being alive or something.

Your life is short.

I mean,

You're a lot better off,

You know.

.

.

Art is important.

Art basically says it doesn't necessarily need to be science or math.

It's an experiment.

It could be an experiment with ideas,

Experiment with.

.

.

But you're here to experience other people.

That's your universal power.

Experience the light that is within you,

That is within the other person.

Cool.

Do it or just keep complaining about why this sucks.

Thanks for listening.

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Make sure to follow me at proudcast.

Io slash ruwondo.

See you next time.

Reviews

honest and real. thank you