Into The Mystery Podcast, Ep. 22b: Tao Te Ching Verses 18 & 19

In the second half of episode 22, we continue our discussion of the Tao Te Ching verses 18-19. In this segment we consider topics such as justice, morality, and the fallibility of human systems -- especially when weighed against the parts of ourselves that are in touch with the Logos and the wisdom of the Tao.

Transcript

Thanks for joining us again for this,

The second half of Episode 22,

In which we've been discussing verses 18 and 19 of the Tao Te Ching.

In this segment,

We're talking about things like profit,

Industry,

Justice,

The fallibility of our human systems,

And we offer some perspectives on the chaos and tumult that the earth appears to be going through as it encounters the next stage of its evolution.

We hope you enjoy.

Well,

Should we move on to verse 19?

Yeah,

I'll read 19.

"'Throw away holiness and wisdom,

And people will be a hundred times happier.

Throw away morality and justice,

And people will do the right thing.

Throw away industry and profit,

And there won't be any thieves.

If these three aren't enough,

Just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.

'" I like that Lao Tzu addressed the difficulty of the first two-thirds of this verse by giving you a solution at the end.

Yeah.

Well,

Again,

We're kind of talking about the same thing here.

We can rely.

.

.

Well,

Our artificial structures that are meant to create holiness and wisdom,

Or create morality,

Or impose justice.

.

.

Do you impose justice?

I don't know.

Support justice?

Yeah.

Mostly we do impose justice,

Because we don't trust the natural justice that goes on within the human being.

So to the extent that we are trying to do those things from a mechanical standpoint that's not trusting the Tao to simply support them as they are,

We're going to get in trouble again.

And I imagine people listening might have an issue with this second stanza,

Throw away morality and justice,

And people will do the right thing.

Right?

Because we kind of have this assumption that there's always going to be somebody greedy,

There's always going to be somebody with a criminal bent to their activities.

So what are we to do with that?

Well,

I think that's true.

However,

When a criminal meets a truly holy person,

They're changed by it.

And so when a criminal is met with opposition,

With someone who's trying to enforce morality or justice on them,

It reinforces the criminality,

It reinforces the violence and malevolence.

And when malevolence and violence meet with true wisdom and true love,

They are changed by it.

And if we don't believe that,

Then we should just … what?

We should just … well,

We should study the Tao a little further is what we should do.

And this statement comes from a place beyond being naive and beyond being cynical.

It comes from a place beyond both of those,

Where we understand that the true impact of embodying holiness,

True morality in ourselves,

True justice in ourselves,

Breeds a different kind of experience in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I would agree with that.

I'm sitting here trying to imagine a world without an official justice system or just our country without a justice system,

A policing system.

Well,

That's the thing though,

Is we have a justice system and it's our own conscience.

Right,

Right.

Sorry,

Go ahead.

Because we have an official system,

An official structure that tracks what is right and wrong,

We have a system of laws that we're all supposed to adhere to.

Very complex system,

By the way.

Because we have that all in place,

It diverts our energy from discovering our natural sense of inherent justice and goodness and rightness from that into being obedient.

And as we know,

Sometimes the laws aren't even just,

They may be in place for reasons that have nothing to do with truth or justice and are simply meant to serve some third party or some other end that may not be stated and victimize people.

So if we're not in touch with our own inner sense of justice,

Then we are subject to actually doing harm when we think we're doing something good,

Which we've covered a bunch of times – but it also means that we're not forced.

If we've got some external structure that's going to take care of,

Quote unquote,

Justice for us,

Then we're not forced to inquire into ourselves to know what that means,

To know what the Tao would have us do.

So we're actually deprived,

We're deprived of that opportunity because we're so beholden to what man has made.

Yep.

And I think that sometimes people intuit this.

I mean,

Honestly,

I think that the social movements right now that are going on to change and reform policing,

Which in many cases is quite warranted,

Quite necessary,

In some sense its deeper aim is this possibility of living in a world where justice isn't something that has to be enforced from a structure,

From an institution that,

Like you said,

Is complex beyond belief.

Our laws are so complex now that virtually you can find any law that has a paradoxical exception to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right?

I mean,

It's just unbelievable.

It's overwhelming when you start to think about,

Well,

How do we go about guiding a society to something that's not so artificial,

Back toward the Tao?

I mean,

It's a huge ship to turn and it's a little depressing if I think about it too much.

Well,

We have only one solution and that is to be an example.

Yeah.

That's what it all comes back to,

Is the individual has to change.

Yep.

And if those three aren't enough,

Just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.

Excellent.

Yeah.

I think that's the thing that's so disheartening for people who do wish to embody the Tao and to live a truthful life is that we see that so much of what we've created is false,

It's phony,

It's imposed,

It's unjust,

It's immoral.

And that's what every system that we as human beings try to generate is going to devolve into if it's not guided by truth.

Right.

Throw away industry and profit and there won't be any thieves.

I love that line because when we talk about,

Well,

Industry and profit both,

Industry supports profit and profit is taking more than you need.

And the Tao advises us that we're not supposed to take more than we need.

I mean,

Everything is provided in this system if it functions as it's naturally supposed to.

But when we start to think,

Oh,

If I can industrialize in such a way that I can produce 100 cars instead of just one,

And amass the profits that go along with that,

Then we're distorting the system.

And that extra profit has to come from somewhere and it gets taken from another person's energy or another system and suddenly you've got a wobbly wheel somewhere and the tires are coming off.

Yeah.

I've heard a lot of people in the gorge here talking about the just unbelievable cost of housing.

And I was having a conversation the other day that revolved around that topic and one of the things that goes on in this industry and profit kind of thinking.

This is the passage that makes Lao Tzu look like a Marxist,

But let's ignore that for a moment because I'm not a supporter of Marxism.

The idea is,

Well,

We heard about this house that sold for like twice as much as it actually should have.

And the question isn't anymore is like,

What is this house worth and what's a fair price for it?

It's like,

It's how much can I get for it?

And as long as we're driven by that mentality collectively,

Where,

Well,

Sure,

If you're going to do it,

Then I'm going to do it.

We look at the prices around here in the gorge and it's just unbelievable.

It's absolutely – I mean,

Everyone,

Unless you're extremely wealthy here,

People recognize this is going to break,

Like this isn't going to work.

Well,

I have a related anecdote to go along with that.

And as you know,

I was recently up in the gorge looking for housing and ultimately decided I couldn't afford to live there.

So I'm still here in Mexico.

But I've been here in Mexico for about 12,

Maybe 13 years now.

And when I first started coming down here,

It was still a rural fishing village.

There were some Americans and some Canadians down here,

But not a lot.

And the prices were roughly a third of what you would pay in the States for things.

So it's a bargain for us.

And a lot of people bought land and stuff.

Well,

Now,

Then kite surfing happened.

And this is a primo kite surfing spot.

I'm not going to tell anybody where it is because we don't need any more people here.

But no,

I'm kidding.

And then all the rich people came down and the speculators and the resort builders.

And now the prices are,

If anything,

A little higher than what you pay in the States in some places.

So,

You know,

The Americans don't care because a lot of them are wealthy and they'll pay whatever,

You know,

Whatever they're asking.

They just want what they want.

But it distorted the local economy in such a way that the people who,

You know,

The locals who had been here all their lives,

Who were paying 10 cents for an avocado and now have to pay a dollar fifty,

Their expenses have gone through the roof.

And if they're not part of this building boom,

They're ending up losing ground and really struggling.

And,

You know,

When I first started coming down here,

We used to say things like,

You know,

The standard tip here is 10 percent.

Don't tip more because you'll start to distort the economy,

You know,

And there weren't that many of us.

Seriously.

I mean,

Not to be stingy,

But because we were already cognizant that these people did not live on a lot of money.

And and,

You know,

And by the way,

There are hosts and we want to be good visitors and citizens here.

And there was a cognizance that we should pay what the local rates were and not overpay,

Like not try to pay that welder twice what your neighbor is paying him so that he'll come work on your house instead.

There was an unspoken or sometimes even spoken agreement among us that we would not distort the economy that way,

Make it more difficult for people to live on their Mexican salaries.

But that's all out the window now.

It's like Cabo San Lucas now.

Yeah,

Right.

Well,

And if you happen to be someone who's not able to thrive in that booming situation,

Then you become a thief.

If you only have 10 cents for your avocado,

But it now costs a dollar fifty and you need to feed yourself,

Then you become a thief.

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

Throw away industry and profit and there won't be any thieves.

Not just because maybe you need to steal in order to support yourself,

But also because something in us knows there's an injustice and that can prompt thieving as well.

Definitely.

I think that thieving can take many subtle forms here.

It's like when things become imbalanced and there are those who are not taken care of and those who are hungry or without homes or whatever,

They become resentful.

That in and of itself is a very complicated thing to talk about,

But it plays out here in what Ma'at-Zhu is saying.

It's all connected,

Man.

I was just going to go back to trust.

In business,

If you can't trust that a fair price is being asked of you or that you're not getting cheated by somebody,

Then you may turn around and try to cheat somebody else just to stay ahead of the game and not lose ground.

Well,

You know what's really interesting?

I heard a story about the beginning of eBay and apparently in the beginning of eBay,

There were these third party – I don't know what they called them – regulators.

So that when you agreed to buy something and the person agreed to send it to you,

There was the third party who would make sure you sent your payment and this person makes sure they sent their product to you.

Well,

Within a very short period of time,

That vanished because there was so much trust and honesty and integrity in the transactions that those third party people became unnecessary.

My heart was so warmed by that story because what it shows is that – and I think like Japanese culture thrives a lot on this idea too.

What it shows though is that when given the opportunity,

Human beings will operate with trust and integrity and honesty and they don't need to be forced to do so.

They don't need to be forced to take care of each other,

Forced to do the right thing because when we try to do that,

Well,

One,

It creates resentment and two,

We're often trying to enforce something that's not really the right thing exactly and it creates chaos.

And there's such joy in the sort of instances that you're describing when you do have an interaction with somebody for business or anything else and there's a sense that a good deal has been made for both parties.

That it was fair,

That both sides are happy,

No one's feeling exploited or like,

I didn't want to pay $10,

000 for this thing,

But I really need it and you knew that and so you jacked up the price and oh well.

That's not a pleasant experience.

But when you come together harmoniously and I don't need to make a huge profit on whatever I'm selling you,

But it meets your needs and it meets mine and nobody starves.

Nobody gets exploited or nobody gets ripped off,

Then that's nice and it is uplifting.

There is a connection made even if it's just a transaction.

So we can see here,

It's like elements like trust that you're talking about and other ingredients that are part of the soul.

When those things are present in us,

We function differently and that affects the whole and when those things are lacking in us,

We function a different way and it deteriorates the whole.

I think that's one of the underlying principles of the Tao is that what's natural is to trust.

What's unnatural is to not trust.

So when we follow the natural way and the law,

Things function harmoniously and when we don't,

They don't.

If these things aren't enough,

Just stay at the center of the circle and let all things take their course.

Yeah,

That's what you see in certain masters who remove themselves from the world because they know that you can't force it to change and your example may not be of interest and so you just stay at the center and let things take their course.

You wait patiently.

Such a hard practice.

That might be one of the hardest practices that I have contended with,

Letting go of my need to fix a situation in some way.

If I see an injustice or I see something that parenting is a good example,

If your child is dealing with something that your instinct is to just kind of take over and protect them or something,

But you have to stand back and let them deal because that's how they learn.

That's how they grow and mature and develop skills.

That's another one of those prominent themes in the Tao.

I think it says somewhere,

By poking a fish too much,

You spoil it or something.

When we interfere too much,

Things go awry.

I don't despair for humanity as much as I used to though.

I can't tell you why.

I just have a sense that the trouble and the chaos and the difficulties we see around us right now are growing pains is overused.

I don't really think of it that way,

But it's more like a purging of things that aren't working.

They almost have to,

Like a healing crisis,

They have to get worse before we see what the solution is and before the energies that are going to heal them can really come in and do the work.

How that's going to happen,

I have no idea.

The sense I have is not the despair I might have had 15 or 20 years ago.

It's more of a,

This is a necessary passage that we're going through in the world as we discover what's not working with our technology,

With our systems,

With our leaders,

With our ideologies.

Those things are all being brought forth to be witnessed and felt.

Just as in an individual awakening,

Where you've got to go through all the stuff that's in the basement,

All of your subconscious and your hurts and your traumas,

Before you can get to a pure place,

A more functional,

Loving,

True,

Whole place,

That's what we're doing as a society,

As a planet,

As a world.

I think it's going to be this way for a while,

But ultimately I trust.

I trust that Dao is going to bring it all together again.

Yeah,

I think that's one of the paradoxes that's difficult to wrestle with here.

I wish I shared your optimism.

Before the coronavirus I did,

And much of how the world has responded to the coronavirus has changed my fundamental.

But the coronavirus,

I think,

Was a tremendously intelligent manifestation.

And I don't say that in any way to diminish anybody's suffering.

If you've lost someone,

I mean,

It's horrible how many people we've lost.

And part of that is a demonstration of the faultiness of our systems.

But I think the virus itself as just sort of a wrench in the works of things is accelerating our development in having to contend with how broken some systems are.

Yeah,

I don't agree with you on that,

But I see your point.

No,

Because I think that unfortunately it has reinforced faith in the wrong systems.

You know,

I don't want to talk specifically about that,

But I shared your optimism until this last year.

And in the last year,

Seeing the divisiveness and seeing the distrust.

I mean,

One of the things I'm seriously concerned about is the long-term effect of the perception that the people around you are dangerous and disease-carrying.

I'm very concerned about that idea,

And that's an idea that has been crafted.

It wasn't just plopped on to us by the coronavirus.

It was a factor of human perceptual modification.

And I'm concerned about those things.

But how is that any different from the fear that your neighbor is a criminal who's going to come and steal your stuff or rape your daughters or something?

It's not different.

That's my point.

It's the same game.

I'm just saying we've always had some version of that.

I don't think this one is any different.

Well,

And the paradox here that I think it makes this interesting is that you're right,

That everything is headed toward an eschatological,

An end that is good.

But it's very difficult to perceive the way there because I think what we often do is we take situations and we implement new strategies thinking that the new strategies themselves are the thing leading to good.

And I think for that reason,

I agree with you that it's going to be a very long road to reharmonizing with the Tao because we still are convinced that we arrogant human beings are still convinced that we can make things better.

Well I guess we'll just stay at the center of the circle and let things take their course.

Yeah,

It's a weird world for sure.