Bill Epperly: Awakened Living

Bill Epperly discusses his sources of inspiration and renewal as well as the role of vulnerability in awakened living. The conversation ends with a discussion of how to be an awake, mindful person in today’s chaotic, unbalanced world. Bill has a Ph.D. in biochemistry as well as extensive formal training in contemplative Christianity and Zen Buddhism.
Interviewer: Serge Prengel has been exploring creative ways to live with an embodied sense of meaning and purpose.

Transcript

We're talking about what sustains you.

Yes,

And that's a great topic.

I think that over the years,

My answer to that question has definitely changed.

Different things have sustained me at different times.

What I find is that it's a combination of investigating my growing edge,

I'd say,

Whatever my growing edge is at the time,

And living my passion.

Something between those two.

And for me,

I'm a long time meditator since 87,

Really.

So meditation is just key.

And a day without meditation is like a day without sunshine.

I think that was used in an advertisement sometime.

But first of all,

I just rely on meditation to open a space that is inherently renewing,

Rejuvenating on a good day.

It just floods me with new energy and inspiration.

And not only that,

But that centers me,

Centers me every day.

I think I have to find my center every day and the center can deepen.

Of course,

Sometimes it's an informal practice that delivers that moment of inspiration and centeredness.

And I'm just going about my day and everything just kind of comes together.

But I do find a formal practice time to be just so important.

And what that is,

Right now,

I'm just loving these embodiment practices of Judith Blackstone.

To sit in the central channel and to just drop in and be the witness,

The embodied self that witnesses everything,

That witnesses the ground of being and witnesses then things arising up out of the ground and going back in.

This is what I'm enjoying right now in my meditation.

Yeah,

So that sense of the meditation is the moment during the day that refreshes you.

That is like sunshine in the day and the connection with a grounded presence is something that really does it for you these days.

Yes,

It's just really a key for me.

And so I think of it as kind of at two ends of the polarity.

I used to live in a Zen Buddhist community.

So Zen Buddhists are really good at dwelling in emptiness in the formless realm,

No in emptiness,

No form,

No smell,

No touch,

No eye,

Ear,

Nose,

Tongue,

Body,

Mind.

So being there in my meditation,

Really going into that place of oneness with everything,

A felt sense of connection to everything,

And yet no one thing in particular,

That potentiality of sitting in that space of formlessness.

That I find uniquely refreshing,

Renewing,

Healing.

But the other is there are particular ways that my body mind seems to like to flow into form that are also incredibly inspiring and give me a lot of energy and hope.

And I don't know that I would say and give me something that kind of completes the experience.

So those moments that I feel most fully alive,

In form,

Using my gifts,

Interacting with someone,

Maybe it's a particular client interchange,

Maybe it's interchange with my wife.

Maybe it's seeing the beautiful garden outside and feeling connected to it.

Those are the other moments.

It could be kind of anywhere along that range.

And so,

You know,

As if we go into the experience itself,

Understanding that words to describe experience are notoriously difficult,

How would you see the difference between the experience of being connected with emptiness and the experience of being connected with form and flow?

Yeah,

Well,

For me,

The experience in emptiness,

One of the key characteristics is the presence of nothing in particular.

So when I look into my body in that place,

I see just space.

When I look into my mind,

There's just space.

There's some thoughts coming up too.

But it's an absence of particulars.

I'm showing up as nothing in particular.

And yet there's a fullness there of every potentiality for life.

It's as if we feel,

I feel,

I sense the possibility for endless manifestations.

So that's one way for me to think about that experience.

Is that resonating?

So in a nutshell,

Emptiness,

The experience of it is not nothing,

But nothing in particular.

Nothing in particular.

One thing.

Everything is blending in as opposed to something coming out and pulling your attention especially to that thing.

Yes,

Yes,

Exactly.

And of course,

This is a kind of ultimate state.

In reality,

There may be thought forms coming up which are like subtle forms that I may be playing with.

Even awareness of awareness is kind of a subtle,

Is awareness of something.

But that's the key is nothing in particular.

And the other end of the polarity is to be so involved in showing up in this moment as a particular thing.

Something that,

Say,

Takes all my attention,

All my focus,

All my concentration to do.

I am a public speaker.

I am a coach.

Sometimes working with a couple,

I'm trying to track both individuals simultaneously and support both people and hold the space.

And I just lose myself in the manifestation in the moment.

And that's the other thing,

Polarity-wise,

That's the other pole that is particularly enjoyable,

Even blissful at times to lose myself in the expression,

The moment,

The manifestation.

Just as you could say you lose the ego self,

The self-identity in emptiness.

Yeah,

Yeah.

So the other side of the polarity,

That state of flow,

Is that you're so involved in what you're doing that you lose that little ego,

That little sense of self.

Yes,

Exactly.

It works into the being and doing.

Yes,

Exactly.

It just drops into whatever is showing up in the moment.

Yeah.

And so how do you have this happen?

Is this something where on a particular day,

On a particular moment,

You feel your body,

Mind,

Spirit more oriented,

Third one?

Or is this something that you take steps to make happen or to direct or to navigate?

How does this happen one way or the other?

Yeah,

That's a good question.

And I think Ken Wilber has this wonderful book,

Grace and Grit.

So on the one hand,

I use practices and on the other hand,

Sometimes the moment just opens up.

But I think it's helpful to be in an area where I have some mastery,

Some gifts,

Where I feel safe,

That things are,

That I'm not,

Say I'm not with an unfriendly audience at a speaking engagement where I'm afraid I'm going to be attacked or am being attacked.

But some confluence of good conditions.

And then also,

I'm very much like I love your idea of pausing that you describe a few places in your website.

And I've been describing it as stop,

Stop the narrative,

Whatever's going on,

Drop down into the body again and just open up the whole being to the present moment.

And so I think over and over again,

When if the mind begins spinning out of control with worry,

Anxiety,

Fear,

Just to stop that and drop back into the present can be,

You know,

Can be a lifesaver in the moment.

And so it's combination of practice and practice and a little bit of good luck,

I guess.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And so you described stop,

Drop down,

Open up.

And you had as a preface to that the sense of feeling safe,

Because obviously the ability to drop down and open up has to do with feeling safe.

We cannot force it in a situation when we're not.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Right.

Yes.

I mean,

We're talking about I'm talking about vulnerably opening as,

As who I am,

As who I truly am,

And in all my humaneness and in all that I am.

And so there for me,

With some of my history,

I experienced bullying,

I experienced not being understood.

So I can be,

I can come across as very extroverted and strong and confident,

But all it takes is a couple critical remarks and that that can start to deflate and even collapse in on itself.

And then I really have to do some work to just be present with myself and to continue if that's happening.

And sometimes,

You know,

Sometimes there are difficult audiences where I'm being attacked a little bit or where I'm not sure that it's interesting.

Another difficult situation can be if I just anything that would trigger the childhood insecurities that have nothing to do with today.

But being in a room where maybe there's just a lot of money and a lot of a sense of posturing,

That those make me very uncomfortable.

I haven't,

I haven't fully,

I haven't fully gotten over that.

I can feel very uncomfortable.

And so it feels very moving for me to hear you say that.

I feel that I'm in the presence of you opening up to the vulnerability itself,

Not being prevented by the vulnerability,

You know,

Making it hard for you to open up,

But actually opening up to the vulnerability itself.

And,

You know,

I have this image,

This sense of kind of dancing at the edge of not,

You know,

Coming forward with aggression,

Not running away,

But staying with that vulnerability.

And that staying is,

You know,

Very alive.

It's not the staying like a deer in the headlight that is,

You know,

Paralyzed by fear,

But it's being with the fear and the vulnerability and being present.

Well,

I think vulnerability is such a great gift when we're able to access it,

To let another feel our vulnerability,

Witness our vulnerability,

Gives the other permission to also be human,

To have weakness,

Doubt,

Their own vulnerability.

And it's certainly been my own brokenness has been such an integral part of my path that I think it's really become one of the things that I can share with people.

And I can do a pretty good job of projecting image and I have an advanced degree and all of this,

And that's all true.

And I've just experienced so much brokenness in my life,

Starting with,

Well,

Starting with issues in my childhood and then substance abuse challenges as a young man in college and early in grad school that have all taken me to places that I wouldn't wish anyone to journey to.

But they've helped me to appreciate some of the darker areas of my own interiors in a way that I otherwise wouldn't have.

So I really understand what it is to be a broken person that and paradoxically,

Through my practice and through grace,

In a sense,

I have come to understand both,

To use Buddhist language,

The innate perfection or the perfection or just sonus or beauty or the of this moment and of myself as I show up,

As I am,

And simultaneously that lingering residue of residual brokenness that I don't know will ever be 100 percent healed up.

There may always be those vulnerabilities,

But that doesn't mean that I can't also,

You know,

So I experience both,

Both those aspects of reality,

Both everything seeming to be just perfect as it is and awareness of the also present brokenness and vulnerability.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

So that sense that in the same moment,

In that space,

You can be experiencing at the same time the brokenness and the vulnerability,

But also the perfection of it.

Mm hmm.

Yeah,

Everything is as it is.

And when we can relax into when I can relax into things as they are,

Then I can find my life there no matter what my external circumstances may be.

And you could say,

Well,

That's that sounds really hard.

I wouldn't want to have that be in that situation.

But when I'm able to just be with things as they are,

Then there's simultaneously this beauty there and sense of completeness and gratitude that I'm even here to experience whatever it may be.

And so there's a beauty in life.

And that is what I think sustains me at the deepest level is just that awareness of the intrinsic beauty,

No matter what the external circumstances may be.

There is an intrinsic beauty,

And that's part of the freedom,

The interior freedom that comes with the maturing of practice life.

Yeah.

And so obviously,

In the way you use perfection and beauty,

There is a different set of criteria to define that than the way we do in ordinary language.

Yes,

Yes.

Perfection is some impossible ideal.

Beauty is also something that has to be extraordinary or certainly would not include the notion of pain in everyday life.

And instead,

What actually you're experiencing that at the moment where you can stay at that edge and be in touch with the brokenness and the vulnerability and the fear,

You know,

There is actually a sense of beauty and perfection in that moment as it is.

Yes,

Absolutely.

And I mean,

This is the beauty that a great artist captures when they take a portrait or draw someone.

And as we know from viewing art,

It could be doesn't have to be a clinically beautiful model if you capture something of that quality of the however you describe it,

The human spirit,

The essence,

The soul,

The person.

When one is able to perceive that inwardly or externally,

Then that beauty and perfection,

That sense is there.

And I've lost my train of thought.

Let me maybe suggest something as I'm hearing you.

Where I'm coming there as I kind of follow you is the sense that,

Say,

Going into some kind of a mindfulness practice with the goal of attaining some kind of a state that would be beyond the foibles of the human is a fool's errand.

And going there with the idea that,

Say,

As I am open to noticing my weaknesses,

Frailties,

Vulnerabilities and imperfections in a conventional sense,

I am experiencing myself as flawed,

Therefore deeply human.

And I have the capacity to move myself by,

You know,

To be moving to so that there is this emotional connection with myself that I have with the frail,

Imperfect person that I discover when I'm in connection with myself.

Well,

Yeah,

I,

You know,

I wouldn't want to discourage a person early in the path from the thought that they're going to experience those states that are just so lovely to be in where one feels that finally they've overcome all the limitations and the imperfections.

And,

You know,

That could be a nice encouragement when we're early in our training.

But ultimately,

To find the to find the life right among the ordinary moments.

This is for me where it's all about.

And,

You know,

The the old the ancient teachings talk about the paradoxical union of the sacred and the profane and the extraordinary and the ordinary and finding finding that the peak moment of the day might be while you're scrubbing the toilet out.

If you really are,

If you're really present in that moment,

Then it can be the most beautiful moment of the day,

Even though the subject matter is isn't on anyone's list of of,

You know,

Bucket list of must do things.

But my goodness,

To be fully present with a full consciousness and deeply in the moment while doing something like cleaning it,

It's just it could be the most beautiful moment of your life.

In fact,

One of one of my early Zen experiences like that was well on my hands and knees,

Cleaning the floor with a dirty rag.

And it was it was one of the most beautiful moments I'd ever had.

So this this awareness or ability to be more and more with things as they truly are the difficult aspect and the beautiful aspect and to find an underlying beauty.

And even in all of that,

That's to me,

Really the the the great the great thing to find.

I mean,

Look at our world today.

And as we are talking today,

There's all kinds of news breaking,

As often does.

But if you can see the underlying a sense of the beauty of of the world struggling toward greater fullness,

Beauty,

Goodness,

Truth over time,

Even as whatever difficult news is breaking.

In the day,

Then this gives you a great sense of ease that things are actually working themselves out.

That to me is part of or not separate.

That is maybe in a collective way how this sense looks or is experienced.

I'm talking about it in a very personal way.

I'm very happy that you're bringing this up,

Because that is an experience that I personally value that I'm in the middle of ordinariness and even,

I would say,

Ordinary ugliness in terms of what's happening in the world.

And,

You know,

Noticing suddenly the sense of beauty and perfection in it.

But the way it happens to me is it tends to happen by surprise.

And I'm curious to see if,

In your experience,

You have a way of putting intentionality into being into,

Say,

The ugly ordinariness of things.

But,

You know,

Directing yourself,

Leading yourself to find the beauty in it.

Well,

Yes.

And I mean,

At the individual level,

I can look at myself,

We can look at ourselves as a global village.

There's a whole village within me.

There's the village idiot.

There's the hopefully wiser,

Older man.

There are all these,

The critic,

The fixer,

The healer,

All these people within us.

And so working with this interior global village,

There's some half-crazy people that aren't very helpful in there.

There's a hyper-vigilant guy that goes off,

Sets off the alarm all the time.

So working with this village,

We have to figure out who to put our energy behind to build something in this life that's beautiful and worthy of a human life.

In the same way,

Looking out at the world out there and,

You know,

I'm having to put down the New York Times here and just take a break from it.

We have to choose.

I mean,

I do believe everything is working itself out.

And my God,

What a mess that humanity is in right now,

Or maybe we've always been in.

And it's going to take some time to kind of work this out.

It's not going to be,

There's no solution that's a shorter scale than a hundred years.

And we know a hundred years isn't that long for society to work things out.

So we have to hold a very big picture.

And I have tremendous confidence that things are moving in a beautiful direction.

And then I have to choose for myself.

I want to choose to what do I want to contribute?

You know,

To what do I,

Which players in the global game do I want to support?

And what do I want to do?

So I teach meditation.

I offer coaching.

I'm not particularly active in every,

I'm not active in every movement.

I pick and choose the ones that have some resonance for me.

And I trust that things are going to work themselves out.

So I'm hearing something that on the one hand,

There is internally that crazy circus of all kinds of characters.

And externally,

You know,

That crazy circus of messed up life.

And that,

You know,

The choosing of what,

How to,

What to look out in life,

What to,

How to orient in life,

How to put one's efforts in life is also kind of paralleled by the choosing of which of the characters inside that inner circus to choose from.

And so that,

You know,

The way that that practice,

That discipline that we have in mindfulness is also to choose who we're going to take as the actor to interface with the world.

Yes.

Who we're going to choose or which,

Which face of self is appropriate moment to moment?

Is this a moment for grandmotherly kindness?

Is this a moment for the athletic coach,

You know,

To shout and be firm and directive?

Is what moment is this?

Is this a moment to witness and write a poem?

You know,

And of course,

We choose these things.

We have different talents and gifts and passions.

So,

So they're different one for the other.

I love to be in the natural world.

So being involved with that's a natural for me and,

And some other areas I'm,

I'm not as active because they just feel like they're not my particular,

My particular calling.

And I think we have to be,

It's so important with,

With things like Facebook and social media amplifying the hysteria than any tendency we might have toward a kind of hyper vigilance or anxiety about the world situation can really get triggered.

And it's just so important to,

To be embodied in the body,

Finding,

In a sense,

Living,

You know,

Living our ordinary life and fulfilling our obligations to self and family and work.

Sometimes in a very humble way,

We're not all going to be political change makers and eco warriors.

Of course,

If you can do you for some people doing that part time is appropriate,

But not everyone even has the bandwidth for that.

And so I think we have to very humbly do what is sustainable for us in a kind of human way.

So that seems like a good place to end,

But I just want to check if you have anything else you might want to add.

I think this is a,

It's a time of,

I experience it and I read about it.

It's a time of great challenge and pressure.

And it's said a lot,

But also great opportunity.

We have so many resources at our fingertips to learn about practices,

To find creative ways to express ourselves and give our gift in the world.

More options for that than I think we've ever had.

And so it is so important,

Whatever the challenges are,

To find a way to not lose heart and to find a way to give our gift.

I think it's just so important.

Reviews

Loved listening to you! Thank you. 💐🙏🏼

Thank you for this uplifting and deeply insightful talk.

Namaste