See No Stranger – Interview

See No Stranger // What We're Thinkin' About Podcast Ep.6 with Barry Ebert and special guest, Jackie Harris. In this episode Jackie and Barry talk about the social challenges and philosophy of Valarie Kaur. Let's find out how can we get a shift in perspective. This podcast ends with a guided spiritual practice with calming music by Kent Rautenstraus.

Transcript

It is what we're thinking about and what we're thinking about is evolved communication.

Hello and welcome to the Mile High Church podcast.

This is the place where we connect and converse to explore communication in our relationships,

Our social world,

Inner development and spirituality.

Today we open our hearts and we get real.

Well hi everybody it's Barry Eber and I'm back with what we're thinking about and my guest today is Reverend Jackie Harris.

We're going to be talking about the social aspect of communication and how we move out into the world and interact with each other.

Jackie,

Great to have you here with us today.

Great to be with you Barry.

And one of the things that you and I have been talking about and moving towards in this podcast here is the work of Valerie Korr and her book See No Stranger and just her revolutionary love project and kinda moving out into the world and interacting with other people as we open up now.

So I just want to get some of your thoughts on that and Valerie Korr's work and how it relates to what we're doing now.

Sure.

I want to take just a minute to tell you how I got introduced to her.

I got introduced to Valerie in January when she did what she called a people's inauguration and it was 10 days of talking about much of her work but really it started on the 21st of January and she really was trying to bring people back into I believe a sense of feeling wholeness with themselves and with each other.

Great,

Great.

You know you got me introduced to her book See No Stranger and her coming from her,

Not only from her training but from her culture and how she's kinda woven her personal life into her life's work.

And I was hoping you could tell us a little bit about that.

I'd love to.

You know she is a Sikh by religion and of course many people call that Sikh.

They are predominantly from India and they have a beautiful tradition and we here at Mile High have worked with their community in the fall several times.

But in her work she was a student at Stanford University when 9-11 happened and all of a sudden her world changed because what happened being a Sikh the men particularly in that faith wear turbans and they had brown skin and they started being treated as though they were terrorists because of what had happened at 9-11.

And it really put a spark in her.

Her grandfather had been huge in who she had become before that moment but at that moment it shifted for her and she realized she needed to do something different.

And so she started traveling all over the country visiting people who were affected by 9-11 and she went to the first site of the first Sikh that was killed because of what they looked like in Arizona.

And that was kind of a memorial place for her from then on.

Well I think that one of the concepts that she really brings forward in a big way is the concept of other.

Of people being other and of othering other people and she could see that in her life with her family and with her culture that they had been put in an other position by the way that they looked.

And I know a lot of her work is about closing that gap and about being able to bring ourselves into community and into conversation with people who we might think of as other than us.

Absolutely.

She has created a compass actually which I think is fascinating and the first area of it that she talks about is others.

And she said one of the most important things we've got to learn about others is to approach them with a sense of wonder.

Curiosity.

Who are you?

Not you're different than me,

You look different than me,

You act different than me but have a real curiosity so we can really appreciate humans for the fact they are humans and see more of how we're alike than we're different.

So I love that term othering Barry.

I think that's really I think that's a huge focus of what she does.

Yeah because I think a lot of our time is spent defending our own turf,

Defending our own ideas,

Defending our own tribe and listening to information that defends and supports our tribe and I think her work is really about having the courage and having the compassion to to not only see other people but engage with other people and find out more about them and that's what I think a big part of us moving forward now is going to be to see our similarities rather than our differences in a bigger way.

Absolutely and in that first when she talks about others she doesn't say that we shouldn't do things like grieve for what's happened but that grief anytime we are feeling that way toward someone we need to understand our shared humanity and we can feel our grief.

In another level she talks about rage and the interesting thing about that is it's not raging against the person but having your personal rage so you can feel it that you absolutely feel the rage but it's more of a personal.

She talks about in her book she talks about her young son that he used to throw temper tantrums and she said that's okay but you have to do it in this safe space.

Throw pillows,

Do things that make it a safe rage.

So I just think it's powerful how she for a young woman has been able to take something so full of grief for her and turn it into something so powerful for the rest of us which is what she calls her revolutionary love project.

Well another thing I love about her work is that it's very personal.

You know she's talking about big topics but how not only how they came to her but how they can come to us.

She talked about being at our southern border and meeting people at the southern border and to actually be with them and to experience the life that they're experiencing.

So it doesn't look like a political confrontation but it's a human situation and I think a lot of what is attractive about her work is that it gives us the opportunity to take it personally in our lives and one of the things that she talks about a lot is our birthing process and us bringing ourselves into this new experience that we're heading towards now.

Absolutely.

Her areas are others,

Opponents and she said when you're working with opponents you have to tend the wound she calls it and then ourselves and it's not that she thinks we're less important but she thinks that if we do that if we stop the othering then we're really going to be able to love ourselves also and so she calls ourselves she says breathe and push and so her analogy when we're working from the our self part of this compass is it's like the birthing process.

We breathe,

We push and then there's a transition.

So her languaging is perfect I think for what each one of us needs to do in this world and you mentioned the southern border she also did a tremendous amount of work in the prisons in the Northeast with this same approach trying to make changes trying to help help them be healthier if prisons can be and so I as I said she's quite she is a she finished her law degree at Yale and does social justice law work now but she's a powerful young woman who's here at the right time.

Well I agree with that and you know one of the things that is really up for us now as we move into a time of greater opening in our communities and our culture is you know sometimes there's the illusion that we're gonna go back it's gonna go back to the way that it was and I don't think there's any time when life goes back life moves forward and so the thing I like about this revolutionary love project is it's pushing us to move into a new expression of ourselves and I think it's very much needed and one of the things that I liked in listening to her listening to one of her talks was she talks about a feminist intervention that is that is happening now in our not only in our political world but in our social world where the where the voices and the experiences of women are being heard more and I find that really exciting too.

I wonder if I could get your take on that.

Well you know I am a feminine body and I came from a time honestly in the sixties seventies where feminism was something that was not necessarily a positive term that was used and so you had to learn to stand up for yourself and what what I love about her approach is she takes it from the birthing that as a woman is giving birth to a child there is the labor there's the push there's breathing there's the push and then the child is born and I think that's what what we're going through and I think that's why using that feminist language that's what we have to understand whether or not men have had children they can understand the concept of because many have children even though their wife gave birth they understand that birthing process they understand that we need the feminine in this world as well as we need the masculine and so I think she has done a really marvelous job in bringing that out for all of us to remember and remember that when that child is born there's a transition and I know you've used a great example of now you know how some might want to get back in the womb because it's safer.

Well we have a tendency to think that it was better before and we've got to go back to the way that it was and I think that's one of the great dangers that we have now and I think that our opportunity is to imagine something new and something better and something more open and also something more just and to not look at other people as a threat to us but as part of the fabric of who we are and I think the time that we're in when we can really see the whole world we can see what's going on in India and we can see what's going on in the Middle East and we can feel it and then there's only so much we can do in our personal lives but we can do what we can do with the people around us with the communities that we're in with the families that we're a part of and I think one of the things that I've loved about this revolutionary love project is it keeps coming back to the personal.

What can I do?

What is a part of my experience that I can expand on and what work can I do to bring my light into it?

And isn't that true even in the teaching that we have that that it is personal that it needs to be personal for us to make have a change in our life and I think that's what she's really saying you know and we hear you know Gandhi be the change you want to see in the world let's take that seriously.

Well I think you know I see in our teaching here at Mile High Church in teaching the science of mind and spirit that we take a lot of classes we take a lot of workshops certainly you and I have taken a ton of them and I've taught a ton of them and then it's a matter of how can we how can we bring what we've learned out into the world into our personal lives not so much that we need to teach it to other people but we need to be an example of it in the way that we live and we need to show up in a way that demonstrates the principles that we believe in and I think that's one of the really exciting things about the time that we're in and to have new new leaders that are kinda coming forward the way that she is people who are willing to step into that that opening that is available to us now and and I'm glad that we're a part of that and what are some things that you've gleaned from this work that you think we can do towards that diminishing a sense of othering?

A story comes to mind that she speaks of in her book and I'm reading a book by Arno Mikulis who was a skinhead in the group in Wisconsin and I don't know if you remember but during this whole time that she was moving across the country one of the good waras in Wisconsin was a skinhead went in and shot all of these people it was horrific and yet one of the young men who lost a loved one in that fight wanted to meet someone to try to understand all that hate and that was in there and so Arno Mikulis who had been a skinhead who was in the head of that group he became his good friend they sat down and they talked they wondered about each other they listened to each other they took time each one of us can do that instead of jumping to the conclusion that you're wrong Barry and I'm right and so you've got to see it my way you listen to them and it helps you understand where they're coming from I think that's a tremendous teaching that she brought just by listening wondering and being willing not that she wasn't angry not that she didn't have those feelings that she ought to but she saw the other person as a human she sees no stranger I think that's the key well you know the personal part of it is something I keep coming back to because on the grand scale the things that we take in from our environment from social media from news outlets is all focused and division and competition and is focused on the concept of othering and that we're being threatened by other people and that we need to defend ourselves from other people and so on a personal level I think is really where it's going to change and each of us individually and what are we what are we actually feeling in our hearts and our souls about other people rather than the information that's coming in at us because a lot of there's a lot that's being invested financially in keeping us divided and keeping the different camps going and I think it is revolutionary this is a form of revolutionary love for us to take our own responsibility for our own lives I think the what we're seeing is is kinda the shadow side of freedom since we have so much freedom in our culture it can show up in a lot of very uncomfortable ways right I love that I love that and I think I think it's them it's so important that we understand when we're othering if we are awake and aware to what we're doing then we can make a change and as I said and it's one person at a time you know it's not changing everybody all at once but it's you know those great people who have come before us the Martin Luther King juniors the Gandhi's those who have been one person who stood for what they believed in Jesus and spoke it and it changed lives and each one of us just in our actions with each other can change one person's life which will have such a beautiful effect on changing many people's lives I agree and that's the thing about taking this whole time that we're in personally I mean we look a lot about outside about what you know what's going to happen next what's the next mandate that's going to come down what's this but we each of us I think has to take it personally and to find our own personal responsibility for our lives and the lives of the people around us and how can we move from I to we not not just taking care of myself but of moving out into the community and how can I have a positive influence in the in the community that I'm in where can I show up and serve and where can I be more aware and where can I bring in a more balanced outlook of what's going on in the world that's what I like for yeah I love that and I was just sitting here thinking of how Tara Brock talks about being on the bus and when somebody starts getting annoying to you that you don't react to that but you try to engage that person you try to let them know how much you appreciate them and and just so many small ways that we can affect change in this world yeah and the culture you know the cultures that we live in the cultures of our cities and each town you know we have been so isolated because of because the pandemic that we've kind of gotten into our own our own little caves and now as we move out into the world the consciousness that we bring with us is going to be our greatest our greatest ally in creating the kind of communities that we really want to create right and so we need to practice we need to practice so speaking of practice I'm thankful that I'm so thankful that you came here today and that you have a spiritual practice for us so let's just take a minute and and move in that direction so we're going to do a meditation now and so I want you to get into a position that's comfortable for you and you may close your eyes or you may unfocus them and then pay attention to your breath as you breathe in what do you feel in your body right now where do you feel it in your body right now often it's the throat the heart the solar plexus and if any of those are the spot put your hand on that spot and as we go through this meditation if you feel anything I invite you to put your hand back on that spot to remind yourself and the out breath the out breath is that breath that is connecting you to the universe connecting you it's your release you're letting go so breathe in and then let out that breath now I want you to in your mind's eye see someone that you love dearly or someone that you care about very much and I want you to think about what is it about that person and maybe it's an animal whatever it might be what is it that makes you care for them so much and embrace that notion embrace that idea right now now I want you to think about someone that you may be in conflict with continue to breathe and if you feel some discomfort put your hand on that spot in your body that is where you feel it and now I'm going to make a revolutionary request that you see that person and you give them that same love and care that you have for that person who is easy to love embrace them see their kindness be compassionate with that person right now so and now I'd like you to start coming back to wherever you are at this moment to your chair feeling your feet on the floor continuing to breathe and then I'd like to like you to listen to a quote from Thomas Merton then it was as if I suddenly saw the secret beauty of their hearts the depths of their hearts where neither sin nor desire nor self-knowledge can reach the core of their reality the person that each one is in God's eyes if only they could see themselves as they really are if only we could see each other that way all the time there would be no more war no more hatred no more cruelty no more greed I suppose the big problem would be that we would fall down and worship each other and so it is well thank you Jackie so Reverend Jackie Harris so great to have you with me here today and thank you for all your insights as we move out into the world thank you Barry I appreciate it and thank you all for listening wherever you are and we got great work ahead of us and I know that we're up for it we will see you soon and hear you soon and what we're thinking about