Positivity & Social Media – Interview

Social Media // What We're Thinkin' About Podcast Ep.5 with Barry Ebert and special guest, Masando Hiraoka. In this episode Masando and Barry talk about the challenges and joys of communication in the context of social media. Let's find out how can we get a shift in perspective. This podcast ends with a guided spiritual practice with calming music, Deep Sea Dive by Chelsea McGough.

Transcript

It is what we're thinking about and what we're thinking about is evolved communication.

Hello and welcome to the Mile High Church podcast.

This is the place where we connect and converse to explore communication in our relationships,

Our social world,

Inner development and spirituality.

Today we open our hearts and we get real.

So this is Barry Ebert.

We're back with what we're thinking about.

So glad to be with you today.

And I got a good friend of mine with me today,

Reverend Masano Hiroka.

We've known each other for a long,

Long time.

And we're going to be talking about evolved communication in the social aspect of lives.

And we've gone through a lot in the last year,

You know,

Politically,

Socially,

So many different ways that we've been kind of separated from each other.

And now we're coming out of hibernation and getting back together.

And just wanted you to kind of throw some of your thoughts at us,

Masano,

Of what do you see happening right now socially in our culture and ways that we can tie this thing together?

Yeah,

I mean,

This past year has been so crazy,

Of course.

And,

You know,

Not only was it a global pandemic,

But we,

You know,

Had an election year in the midst of a time in which we're already kind of distancing ourselves from each other.

Like,

I think our reliance upon social media became even a little bit greater this time to continue to stay connected.

And social media,

As we've seen,

Is like this double-edged sword.

We've seen the gifts of it and,

You know,

Seeing pictures of our friends and,

You know,

Grandkids and,

You know,

All of these ways in which you can keep in touch with a large amount of people and do so in a way where you can still get a feel of what's going on in people's lives.

But I think what we've also seen is kind of one of the dangers of social media,

And I think Brene Brown talks about this a lot,

Is the ways that it has the ability to put us into like these bunkers or these echo chambers where we really have control of the,

You know,

Voices and opinions and even news sources.

I know you did a talk about,

You know,

Making sure that we're really,

You know,

Checking our news sources as much as we can,

Like even as a spiritual practice.

But there can be a tendency on social media to only surround ourselves with and friend people that have the same points of view,

Have the same political points of view,

Have the same world views as you,

And then even de-friend,

Like unfriend people that don't.

So if that's your kind of connection point to the reality of what's going on in the world,

You most likely could get into like a whole digital world in which you can have only one point of view and feel like that's the only one that does and should or could exist.

Yeah,

And I think it's kind of led us to a kind of a digital tribalism,

You know,

Because we can break ourselves into tribes of somebody's right and somebody's wrong.

And it's very,

It's easy,

Just a couple of clicks,

And you can find people that agree with you.

And I think when we're talking about the issues that are confronting us today,

We have an opportunity to open up to new opinions and new ideas because there's so much stuff available,

Or we also have a tendency to move towards what we might talk is confirmation bias,

To look for people who agree with us and to keep building the same case around ourselves.

And I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about that because we've talked some about that before about confirmation bias and seeking that information that's going to support what we thought about all along.

Totally,

They've done some studies around this and I just find it to be so fascinating.

This thing called confirmation bias is a phenomenon that exists within all of us,

Right?

So none of us are really free from these things.

When you talk about bias,

It's something that we all have.

But confirmation bias is this phenomenon that says all of us are more likely when we have a particular point of view or a belief.

And so the deeper the belief,

The more often and sort of the more profound this experience is.

But when we have a belief about something,

We are very likely to take in information that confirms that and have that even create a deeper belief while simultaneously disregarding any information that may go against it,

Right?

And it's kind of a natural thing.

And,

You know,

They did,

I think they did some of these studies with a group of folks around climate change,

Right?

Folks that really believed in climate change and folks that didn't,

Right?

Like didn't believe climate change or perhaps maybe believed it was real,

But perhaps not,

You know,

Human made.

And they found that both groups like just dug in their heels and they're presented with the same information on both sides,

Right?

And both groups dug in their heels and affirmed the information that agreed with them and just disregarded and was like,

That's,

You know,

Hogwash of the information that didn't.

And this happens to all of us.

And it's a phenomenon that I think we're all hoping to come into some awareness of because,

You know,

Despite that,

The way that we can,

You know,

Kind of combat it is just by realizing it's even happening within us.

I agree.

And I think the,

You know,

The thing that we've always prided our culture on is that we're a culture of science,

You know,

And that we were able to look at new scientific information.

And so much of our education as we're going through school is about,

You know,

Science and learning about things.

And then we get to a certain point where the balance between science and emotion and the way that our emotion drives our thinking rather than being the other way has been a part that I think has really been inflamed a lot by social media as well.

It's that science kind of gets pushed aside and we're not able to take in that information if we don't like it or if it challenges the view that we already had.

And we have a tendency to stick with our narratives even though science might refute those.

Yeah,

It's almost like,

You know,

I think the title of this NPR show where I was listening to this professor being interviewed about all of this was,

You know,

Facts don't matter.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It's just the idea that like,

You know,

And you see this happening on social media or Facebook or whatever,

You know,

Whatever social media space you're inhabiting,

But you see like these arguments go down and there's all of these articles,

Right?

Like when you see these battles coming and you like you see a comment section and you're like,

Oh,

These two are about to get into it.

And so you can see it happening and there's always like in every interaction one kind of like this demeaning language,

You know,

Just like people really talking down and.

.

.

Taking a shot.

Yeah,

Well,

Like name calling,

You know,

It's like,

Oh,

Yeah.

And then you could just see it,

You know,

Escalating and deteriorating all at once.

And there's always like,

You know,

Articles that people will post to back up whatever point of view.

Yeah.

And they're both posting articles,

Both of which are,

You know,

Just confirming their own point of view,

Neither of whom is actually reading the other article or even if they do happen to click and browse over it or like this is all ridiculous or this is from a source that obviously is fake news,

You know,

Like.

.

.

That's a.

.

.

You could just see this phenomenon happening in real time often if you're,

You know,

You happen to catch one of these arguments on Facebook.

Well,

How does.

.

.

You know,

One thing I wanted to talk about is how does a voice cut through?

Like we study the great spiritual voices,

The great teachers who've come before us.

And so how does a voice cut through and build trust?

Build trust in the culture that might be able to bridge the narratives that are separating people?

How can we do that?

Is it about hope or is it about fear or how does a voice break through?

Yeah,

I think.

.

.

Well,

There's a couple things that I think can happen.

Another sort of brain science thing that I learned about when I was up at the Parliament World of Religions,

I think I shared about this in a talk recently,

Is there's this phenomenon that,

You know,

Our brain is naturally creating these in-groups and out-groups in our world,

Right?

Of people that we trust,

People that we consider to be part of our inner circle,

People that we feel like we align with and then people we don't,

Right?

And,

You know,

Evolutionarily,

This was really important because we had to know like who was friendly and who was not when there was,

You know,

Cultures of kind of,

You know,

Like warring nations.

And that sort of evolutionary thing never went away.

What they found is like when they started doing studies and looking at people's brains,

When they showed a picture of someone that was in their in-group,

The same part of their brain lit up that lights up when you think about yourself,

Right?

So literally empathy is happening,

Like you're seeing that person as yourself if they're part of your in-group.

And conversely,

When they showed a picture of someone from their out-group or someone who was on the other side of whatever line they've drawn in the sand,

The part of the brain that lit up is the same part of the brain that lights up when you think about an object or a subject,

Right?

So there's dehumanization happening in our brain when we're drawing these lines in the sand.

And so I think one of the things that we can realize is that we're actually dehumanizing people,

Like kind of on a daily basis,

Especially if we're,

You know,

Find ourselves engaging in these ways where,

You know,

We're seeing people that are on our side and people that aren't,

Right?

And,

You know,

I think one of the ways that we can combat that,

What they found within the same NPR show talked about,

Fear is really good at getting people not to do something and kind of dig in,

Right?

Like fear is really good at creating inaction.

Hope,

What they found is the greatest on average thing that can inspire action or change or something different,

Right?

Well,

I think,

You know,

I think as we move out of this isolation thing,

A lot of the narratives that we've created are things that we're watching,

Right?

They're things that we're watching or listening to that confirm what we already believe.

And now we're going to go out into the world,

Take our masks off and kind of build new communities,

Right?

And I think that choice between hope and fear is going to be one of the big things that determines what kind of communities we build together.

And to make our,

If our communities are going to be more diverse,

Which I know is a big part of your work,

We're going to have to move past our fears and to really see other people,

Not as objects,

But as people like us,

And to light up a different part of our brain,

To put it that way.

A little different part of our brain,

A different part of our heart,

A different part of our body.

I think spirituality comes into this because I think it asks us to move into a different part of our brain.

Yeah.

It kind of calls us out of fear and into a place of trust.

It calls us out of a place of reacting to a place of being,

In a place of being.

It calls us into a place where I believe in this thing called oneness.

And I believe that like my life and your life,

It's all interconnected.

And that brings us out of,

I think,

The in-groups and out-groups.

I think it calls us into a way of hope,

Right?

Because we also have this,

I mean,

One of the most amazing things about Ma'ah Church and the New Thought philosophy that we're all seeking to try and live by is the fact that no matter what things look like right now in our individual lives and in our collective lives,

We can change it.

We can shift it.

We can come back to a truth of,

The truest truth,

Right?

The truest truth of joy and peace and love as really the core of who we are.

And I think that's perhaps the call of our time.

Like as we're coming back out,

Like I feel the fear that is still present when I'm walking around in public,

Right?

Yeah.

But I also feel the hope of being in a crowded concert again.

You know,

I feel the magic of what that is when you're around a bunch of humans who,

The majority of whom you don't know,

But who you are feeling a connection to through,

You know,

Whatever experience you're having together,

Coming to church,

Right?

Yeah.

There is something numinous,

Something undescribable that happens when we're all in a room and we're all dialed in to the message or to the music.

We're all feeling it in our own personal way.

But we know like everybody else in the room is also having this experience,

Like this spiritual experience.

Yeah.

And you can't duplicate that.

Yeah,

And to not be so suspicious of the other people in the room,

To kind of let our guard down,

To be around other people.

I think that's something that we're relearning.

We have to.

We're going to have to relearn that now,

How to get back,

How to go to a concert,

You know,

At Red Rocks with 10,

000 people and to be not only comfortable with it,

But to feel that sense of joy and elation and to just that expansion of the tribe in something that we have in common.

I think that that's something that we're all seeking,

But we're going to have to kind of relearn it.

And I think the,

You know,

All of the great spiritual leaders who we follow have tried to urge us to go beyond the tribe that we're in.

Yes.

And to open to other people.

And we get that lesson over and over,

But each of us has to do it individually and to do that work individually to expand where we are.

And I think the point that you brought up about the difference between hope and fear and that fear has a tendency to stop us from doing things.

Hope has a tendency to inspire us to move to a place we haven't been before and to not dig in so much on our narrative,

But to be open to the world around us.

And we've got to remain optimistic.

You feeling optimistic?

You know,

I have to,

Right?

Like,

I think it's something that we have to rely upon to be hopeful about our future,

To be hopeful about our political divide right now,

Right?

It feels ugly.

Like,

It feels ugly right now.

And people are taking,

You know,

Shots at each other all the time.

And I have to have hope that,

Okay,

This is the way it is now,

But it doesn't always have to be this way.

You know,

That there can be something that actually we can all work towards together,

You know?

That we can have different views about how to get there,

But hopefully we can have a common goal,

You know,

Around the kind of society and the ways that we live together.

And I have a lot of hope for just finding our way back to each other.

I've just been thinking about that phrase a lot.

Like,

Just finding our way back to each other.

And,

You know,

It's going to be,

It could be a little messy,

Right?

It doesn't have to be perfect,

But we can do things.

And we can engage in spiritual practices to help us do that,

To help us come out of fear and more into hope,

To help us,

You know,

Realize when we're dehumanizing someone and recognizing,

Wow,

That's my brother,

You know,

Right there.

That's my sister right there.

That's my,

You know,

Family member of this planet that we're sharing together.

Like,

I want to care for this person,

Even if we don't agree on this,

And even if we can't see the same thing in the same way.

But you matter to me.

You matter enough,

You know,

For me to care about you enough not to dehumanize you,

To re-humanize you so that,

Like,

So that my experience of oneness can expand and grow and be a real thing in my life.

Yeah,

You know,

The thing that I think you're bringing up is it really is a person-to-person thing.

And the,

You know,

The 24-hour news cycle and social media is really focused on conflict.

I mean,

Conflict is what sells.

It's money.

And the commerce of conflict is what I call it.

And so we have to,

As individuals,

Separate ourselves from that narrative and do our individual work with the people that are around us and keep trying to expand that tribe that we're in to let more people in and to move into other types of social situations and to be of more service.

And,

You know,

I think that's what's up now because we're going to rebuild communities.

It's not like we're going to go back to where we were.

We got to go someplace new that we've never been before.

And to me,

That's the exciting thing because each of us have an individual opportunity now to be a part of creating something new that's great.

Yeah.

And that's a hopeful message right there.

Yeah.

You know,

Like we have to take everything from this past year,

Do the real grief work,

And just,

You know,

I think self-reflection that we've all gained a deeper ability to do during this time and lean into,

Yeah,

Like this is this time that we're moving into right now,

This is really exciting,

Actually.

And it's a tremendous opportunity.

Yeah.

And yeah,

Our interpersonal just ripples out to the social,

You know,

To how we're just being and living together.

And that starts with,

You know,

Every interaction that you have.

And I think,

You know,

What I want to always take away is from that idea of hope and fear,

Of fear creates inaction and hope creates,

You know,

Change and inaction is like,

You know,

What kind of energy am I communicating with when I'm on social media?

Yeah.

You know,

What message am I,

You know,

Putting out there?

Can I speak truth?

And can I end that speaking of truth with a message of hope of how things can be different?

Yeah.

You know,

Can I draw our attention to something that's not working,

But leave folks with that feeling of something new can emerge once we have this understanding that it's not working now.

Yeah.

We do this in our personal lives.

We do this in our,

You know,

Family lives and marriages.

And we can do this together as a society as well.

Yeah.

And how is my voice showing up in this group?

That's right.

I think that that's,

I think that's something we all want to take more responsibility for.

Because,

You know,

We've been kind of locked in our own little Zoom rooms for over a year now and,

You know,

Social media has an anonymity about it that gives people an opportunity to take those shots.

And some people just like watching it.

Some people just like watching it,

Right?

But I think that if we're going to build better communities and communities that are more just and that are more open,

We have to rise above that kind of communication.

And that's,

I think,

The,

You know,

The essence of what we've been talking about here is evolving the ways that we communicate with each other.

So I think that's what we're up to.

Yeah.

I think that's the call of our time.

Yeah.

I don't think any of the conflict ultimately feels good.

I think it may give us a little hit of dopamine in the moment.

Yeah.

I mean,

Like,

Ooh,

I'm right.

I just put that person in their place.

That felt so good.

I'm right.

You know,

But just a little bit after that,

It probably doesn't.

Yeah.

Like,

It never actually feels good to make someone feel bad about themselves in any way.

Like,

That never actually feels good.

But the hit that you get at the beginning,

Because maybe you're in a defensive space,

You know,

That could be the thing that we end up going to.

And so evolving is just recognizing that that's happening and there's just,

Like,

Another way.

I agree.

Hey,

It's great having you here,

By the way.

I love getting to talk to you.

And I was wondering if you might lead us in a little bit of a process and kind of take us a little deeper on this thing about seeing other people as real.

Yes,

Yes.

So this exercise is one that comes out of the Buddhist tradition,

But it's one to generate compassion.

And,

You know,

Really compassion is this,

You know,

The root of compassion,

The etymology,

Rather,

Just means to feel deeply with another person.

And so this exercise is meant to really guide us through that very intentionally.

So,

Yeah,

Let's just get into it.

So,

You know,

Wherever you're at,

I just invite you,

You know,

If you're walking around,

Continue to listen to this without having to close your eyes,

But just allow yourself to be part of the process.

But if you're in a place where you can really,

You know,

Go to that place of your inner mind and connecting with your heart and your inner wisdom,

I just invite you to just,

You know,

Fall in to that place right now.

And come to recognize and just remember in this moment how deeply at one we are with this thing called love,

This loving energy presence of the universe,

With the peace that resides and abides at the center of it all.

We just come into a remembrance of all of the ways in which that exists right here at the center of our being.

And as we come into this place where we remember our oneness,

You know,

Our unity with all that is,

I just invite you to bring up a person in your mind,

Just in your mind's eye very quickly,

That you have an easy time getting along with someone that's in your in-group.

It could even be someone you put up on a pedestal,

You know,

Maybe someone you hold above you.

And with your attention on that person in your mind's eye as you're just thinking about this person and if your eyes are closed and you're really just seeing them like sitting there in front of you,

Just invite you to say these words to yourself as you think about or look at them.

Just like me,

This person is seeking some happiness for their life.

Just like me,

This person is trying to avoid suffering.

Just like me,

This person has known sadness,

Loneliness,

And despair.

Just like me,

This person is seeking to fulfill their needs.

And just like me,

This person is learning about life.

So as you breathe into that,

Just feel the ways in which that perhaps had any transformative effect on your brain or your body or your being and just allow that person to gently fade from your mind's eye now.

Now I just invite you to bring someone into your mind who may like kind of be invisible,

Maybe someone who you see at the coffee shop or maybe someone who is experiencing homelessness that you drive by,

Someone who kind of you feel is kind of like invisible in your life in some way or in society in some way.

As you bring that person into your mind,

Just invite you to say these words.

Just like me,

This person is seeking some happiness for their life.

Just like me,

This person is trying to avoid suffering.

Just like me,

This person has known sadness,

Loneliness,

And despair.

Just like me,

This person is seeking to fulfill their needs.

And just like me,

This person is learning about life.

As you breathe into that,

Again,

Just notice if there's been any change in your being in any way and have some appreciation for that.

We'll do this just one more time.

Now as that person gently fades from your mind's eye,

Invite you to bring someone up in your brain who you may have put on the other side of the line,

Who has become a part of an outgroup in some way in your life.

And with your attention on this person,

Just invite you to say these words.

Just like me,

This person is seeking some happiness for their life.

Just like me,

This person is trying to avoid suffering.

Just like me,

This person has known sadness,

Loneliness,

And despair.

Just like me,

This person is seeking to fulfill their needs.

And just like me,

This person is learning about life.

So invite you to just take a deep breath,

A cleansing breath.

And just again,

Notice if there's any shift or change or evolution that has happened in your being at all.

And just give thanks for the ways in which we are always able to find our way back to one another.

Just give thanks for this thing called life and the ways that it continually invites us back into remembering our truth of our oneness of our humanity and of the hopeful thought that we can live in a world that works for everyone,

That we can live out of hope more than fear,

That we can truly live in a world where each and every person is loved and celebrated and embraced.

So with that,

We just allow this sacred time to continue to work on us as we go about our day and we let it be.

And so it is.

Thank you for that,

Masano.

Very much,

Very much.

So it's been great having you here today and I really appreciate your insight.

Great conversation.

So fun.

And we will talk again soon.

Let's do it.

Thank you for being here with us today and keep communicating out there.

Do your best.

Reviews

This is an amazing, insightful, inspirational, and important discussion. Thank you Rev. Masando and Dr. Barry!!!