High Functioning Codependency With Terri Cole

In this episode, Terri Cole breaks down how high-functioning codependents — often the go-getters and perfectionists among us — end up sacrificing their own well-being. Sound familiar? We get into the nitty-gritty of societal norms, early family expectations, and how these can set the stage for burnout. But luckily, Terri has strategies to help us break free from these patterns and set healthy boundaries.

Transcript

Hello,

My friends.

Hello.

Hello.

Ooh,

What a show.

What a show.

What a show.

I was going to tell you,

I feel like I've been enlightened by Terry Cole tonight.

We had an incredible show.

Uh,

We talked all about high functioning codependency and I just got to tell you something.

It was a,

I just,

You're going to love the show.

Let me just say that.

It is shocking to me.

You know what I love about the show?

She has updated the term codependency,

You know,

Codependency.

That term has been around since the seventies that needed an update and she has done it and she has done it beautifully.

Um,

You know,

We talked about the fact that we're raised to be codependent.

Yeah.

Wait till you hear the show.

It's so,

So,

So good.

I cannot wait.

Um,

Okay,

Let me tell you a little bit about Terry Cole.

She's a licensed psychotherapist and global relationship and empowerment expert and the author of boundary boss and too much for over two decades.

Terry has worked with a diverse group of clients that includes everyone from state home moms to celebrities and fortune 500 CEOs.

She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so that clients and students achieve sustainable change.

This I believe is her third time on the show and it was phenomenal like all the rest.

So you're going to love it.

Here we go with the one and only Terry Cole.

Terry Cole.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for being with us today.

Thank you for having me.

Gosh,

I've known you.

Yeah,

I think this is your third time on the show.

I was thinking I first met you when I lived in Nashville and I've been here in North Carolina since 2020 so I think I met you in 2018 or 19.

Crazy.

Anyway,

Thank you.

And is it,

This is your second book since then?

Well,

It's my third,

If you count the workbook.

So I did boundary boss,

Boundary boss workbook and now this is my third.

Oh my God.

Congratulations.

Well thank you my friend.

So yeah,

We're going to jump right into it.

Are you ready?

Of course.

Here we go baby.

All right.

So we're going to do the intro and outro later.

We have an audience that's watching and we're going to do the,

So no comments you guys please till the very end.

But we are going to just jump right in.

So here we go.

Welcome to the show.

Terry Cole.

So happy to have you here today with us.

Thanks Michelle.

I'm happy to be here.

I love the,

I love the mug.

I have to say I'm a big,

I'm a 20 ounce mug person that looks like a very nice big mug.

I'm a big mug girl.

It's not big enough,

But it,

But it is,

It's not,

It's more than 11 ounces.

So love it.

And I like the big,

I'm a mug person.

I think we have to have very specific mugs.

So I like the great three plus mug.

Anyway,

Thank you for being on.

And I'm very excited to talk to you about this new book of yours.

Too much.

We're talking today about high functioning codependency.

I'm surprised my picture wasn't on the back cover or inside as an example.

Yeah.

And you know,

As I was going through the book,

I was like,

Wow,

This was so,

So,

So good.

I,

I mean,

Such a good book.

Oh my God.

So needed because I don't think people understand that they are high functioning codependence.

So tell us,

Tell us the story.

Where did the book come from?

What was your inspiration?

I'm guessing it's that,

But tell us more.

Well,

Part of what,

You know,

Why,

Why the new moniker,

Right?

Why did I come up with,

So I coined this phrase because in my therapy practice,

I have probably lots of women,

Like lots of people here and like you and like me highly capable people.

So anytime I would dare to mention that what I was seeing in their relationship was a codependent pattern,

They would immediately reject the notion and really being unduly influenced by,

You know,

The seminal text codependent no more by Melody Beatty.

Yeah.

You know where you basically that the myths about that is that you have to be like involved.

You're enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent.

You know,

You're the weak-willed woman sitting at home,

Waiting for the husband who's gambling away all your money.

You know what I mean?

So these women who are women who are literally the masters of the universe,

Building empires,

Writing books,

Pop stars,

Like people all over that,

That you would not look at and think that they did not think that.

So the problem of course,

Is that if they couldn't see themselves in the problem,

How could I help them get to the solution?

Right?

I needed us to get to work,

But I couldn't get to work if they were like,

No,

That's not me.

So when I started really analyzing,

I was like,

Melody Beatty's work,

This was codependent no more was the seminal text in a way for then.

And this is the seminal text for modern women,

Because we are doing all the things for all the people.

As soon as I explained to my clients,

This sort of new moniker,

They were able to raise their hands and say,

Me,

I'm the problem.

It's me.

Not to quote Taylor Swift,

But I will.

And,

And without shame,

You know what I mean?

Without shame.

They were like,

I am burnt out.

I am exhausted.

So if we wanted to get into what is my definition of it or what is it?

It is you being overly invested in the feeling states,

The outcomes,

The situations,

Circumstances,

Finances,

Careers,

All the things of the people in your life to the detriment of your own internal peace.

And this is very complicated because as mothers and partners and daughters and friends and decent human beings,

Of course we're invested in other people being happy and satisfied.

We want that for them.

But when you're a high functioning codependent,

It goes over the line to the point of feeling responsible for those things.

Ooh,

I'm just letting the,

All that land.

Hmm.

I'm thinking of a friend of mine.

We're throwing a birthday party for another friend and she has a full-time job and three children and has a side job.

I mean,

When I say she's so busy and she'll say,

I'm so busy,

I have no time.

I have no time.

I have no time.

And I said to her,

Let me take care of the entire dinner.

Just let me do the dinner.

And she's like,

Oh no,

No,

No,

No,

No.

Cause she was going to do this dinner.

And I said,

Let me do it at my house.

Let me do it.

I've got you.

I love you.

I've got you.

Terry.

She was like,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No,

No.

I'll do it.

I'm like,

You were just in tears because you are overwhelmed.

You're doing it all.

You are the go-to person for your husband,

For your work,

For everything.

And now I'm trying to take something off of your list.

She literally was in tears,

But,

And couldn't say no couldn't give it to me.

Yep.

Because here's the thing as HFCs we're very crappy receivers,

Very crappy receivers.

We do not want to there there's a,

If we look at like,

What are,

What are some of the traits that go along with being a high functioning codependent?

Well,

I mean,

We can start with the easiest one,

Feeling responsible for fixing other people's problems.

So that's,

That's sort of an easy one going above and beyond,

Right.

Doing things for others that they can and should be doing for themselves.

And a lot of times it's stuff no one is even asking us to do.

Always ready to jump into damage control mode.

Keep in mind when you're an HFC,

You're a good problem solver too.

So it isn't like we don't have the skills we do,

But back to your friend,

There's a hyper independence that goes along with this and that we really don't want to owe anybody.

We don't want to be a burden.

We think about being a burden to other people.

Yeah.

Other traits that you may experience if you're a high functioning codependent is getting frustrated or angry when other people don't take your grade A advice,

Feeling exhausted or resentful,

Or even bitter because of the amount that you're over-functioning in your relationships.

Inadvertently trampling on other people's boundaries because you don't realize that someone having a problem or you having a thought about what someone should do.

When we insert ourselves as the solution to someone else's problem,

We are stepping on their sovereignty,

Right?

And even when someone asks you,

You know,

Part of the,

One of the,

Not easy,

I'd say simple,

But not easy thing to change.

If you,

If you identify with being a high functioning codependent,

Doing all the things for other people is if you are an auto advice giver that instead really work to ask expensive questions instead.

So it doesn't mean you're never going to tell someone that you care about what you think about something.

It does mean it shouldn't be the first stop on the bus.

So the first stop on the bus,

No matter anybody comes to you for any reason,

The first thing you say is,

Okay,

Let's start with this.

What do you think you should do?

And then let them talk,

Let them,

Let them talk.

And then what,

And then what do you think?

And then what happened?

And then what would happen,

Right?

So much of the time,

Someone else,

Not knowing something as an HFC makes us so uncomfortable and anxious that we just want to fix it.

And people are not projects.

And it really is dehumanizing when we treat them that way.

And again,

Listen,

You guys,

No judgment,

Seeing us out,

You write books about stuff that you really need help with first.

You know what I mean?

Like,

What do they say?

You teach what you most need to learn.

So I was like the most extreme HFC going.

Do you want to continue with behaviors or where are we at?

I love that.

I like,

I'm taking so many notes.

I'm like,

Yes,

Yes.

Let's talk about that.

Yeah.

Let's do the behaviors.

I think that's really important because I want people that are listening are going to want to wait.

Is that me?

You know,

Because what is it?

Yeah.

I have a few questions,

But go ahead.

I'd like to hear about the behaviors.

So we have auto advice giving,

We have being overly self-sacrificing.

So you're always willing to take one for the team when you're an HFC.

You're like,

It's fine.

Like,

So even think about a scenario.

Remember when people used to go to work somewhere,

Let's just say you and your partner were going to work,

But he was leaving first or she was leaving first.

And you have two cars.

If the car that they would normally drive would have a flat tire and you're an HFC,

You would immediately say,

Take the other one.

I'll take an Uber.

Let's go.

Like super,

We're just problem solving immediately.

Did not even thinking about it.

Auto accommodating is another of the behaviors where we've,

I tell a story in the book that I was in this busy hair salon in New York city on a Saturday,

Which I don't normally go to because it's crazy there.

And I had some mask on my hair.

So I'm laying in the sink.

I'm going to be laying there for 30 minutes.

And all of a sudden the sink traffic starts to back up one person in a robe,

Two people in a robe,

Three people in a robe.

And now I'm so,

I can't even take it.

I'm like,

I don't need to be taking up the sink.

I should tell them I should move.

It's fine.

So I raised my hand.

The assistant comes over and I was like,

You know,

I don't need to.

She's like,

Yeah,

Lady.

Hi.

We do this every Saturday.

I think we got it.

I think we're good.

Don't worry.

You're fine.

But I realized that my,

Me being dialed into my environment,

This is a part of being an HFC where I could have been laying there listening to a podcast,

Calling my mother,

Relaxing my exhausted brain,

But I wasn't doing that.

Hmm.

So there's a cost for all of this.

Now,

What was I doing?

I was taking responsibility for something that is not on my side of the street.

The sink flow at my hair salon is not my responsibility.

And it's really,

When you think about it,

It's pretty like presumptuous for me to be like,

I've got this great idea.

The assistant was like,

Yeah,

Lady,

I think we got it,

But thanks.

So that's,

That's auto accommodating.

And it could also look like being on a plane and hearing that two people need to sit somewhere and you being like,

I'll move.

Or like we just insert ourselves into any,

Any conflict,

Any problem.

We just don't want there to be any problem.

Another one of the behaviors is anticipatory planning where,

You know,

You're going to be with these people.

Sometimes maybe they're difficult people.

Maybe you're with family.

Well,

Uncle Bobby and uncle Jimmy don't like each other.

Let's make sure they don't sit near each other.

I'll make sure I have the booze that they both like to drink,

Like twisting ourselves up in a pretzel to make sure that there's peace in the Valley or peace at the Christmas party or whatever it is,

Rather than having a conversation with grown ass adults and being like,

If you guys can't figure it out,

Don't come to the party.

Right.

Instead,

We don't ever put it on someone else.

We're like,

I can do something to ensure that everything goes well.

And the,

The function,

You know,

The bottom line of this is there's so much self abandonment,

Right?

That is a part of this process.

It's not free,

Right?

We have a hyper independence,

Right?

Did we already talk about that?

Hyper independence?

Okay.

I don't think so.

No.

Okay.

Because I just,

There's the three interviews in a row and I can't remember what I said,

But where we don't want to be a burden onto other people and we don't want to owe other people.

And we're not great.

I guess we started this conversation as crappy receivers,

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we're really not great at being vulnerable.

We are the Queens of I'm fine and I got it.

And the thought that it has to be me.

So the idea of delegating,

Because we also many of us suffer from perfectionism and we're super efficient.

So we know if we delegate things to people,

We,

In our minds,

We're like,

They're going to do it wrong.

And they probably are if we're holding them to our standards,

Which are usually higher than most.

But there's such a great cost to all of these behaviors.

So do you want to stick with the behaviors?

You want to move on to the costs?

How are we doing?

I like the behaviors.

That's because I think,

Gosh,

Like everyone,

Everyone in my world,

At least would relate to everything you said.

So how many of us are walking around as high functioning codependents?

Oh,

So many like,

Oh,

So many.

And so many,

Because why let's look at the why.

This is what I'm wondering.

Is it getting worse?

Like recently,

Is it worse or it's different?

Kind of like you said with Melody Beattie way back in the seventies,

Like it was so different then.

But now,

And it does seem like more women than men.

Yes,

For sure.

Yes.

Although men also like,

So I've had,

I've heard from so many men saying,

I know this is written sort of through the lens of the female experience,

But yeah,

This is me too.

And I only say that because,

And I'm not saying that men wouldn't be this,

But I think about women who are now in the workforce and raising the children and putting dinner on the table and,

And,

And,

And,

And it's like,

How do we not become high functioning codependents?

Like,

How do we not?

Well,

Let's talk about how we got here.

Yeah.

And then we'll talk about how to,

How to go over the bridge to getting somewhere better,

How to get into recovery because that's,

That's really the only thing we can hope for is recovery.

You know?

So we got here because I mean,

It's the way we're raised not to go back to the scene of the crime,

But I have to.

So family of origin,

What were the beliefs?

What was the expectation?

What was your role in the family system?

Right.

I mean,

Most,

Most girls and boys,

But certainly girls there was be a good girl.

Turn that frown around.

If you don't have anything nice to say,

Don't say anything at all.

Yeah.

Nobody was like,

Tell me how you really feel.

They were like,

Be compliant.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Be,

Be helpful.

So important to be helpful and really be self-sacrificing.

I mean,

There,

There certainly was an expectation that if you were a good girl,

Or if you were a good Christian,

Or if you were a good,

Whatever,

Because many people are raised in religious homes,

You know,

And the messaging is the same,

That the more self-sacrificing,

The better,

The more feminine you are,

The better woman you are,

If you are acting in these ways.

So,

I mean,

We,

We come by it honestly.

Right.

So,

So we understand that we come by it honestly.

And my,

Listen,

My non-scientific or non-social scientific thoughts,

And I've always thought this about how we've morphed into from what it was in the fifties to what it is now is that when you think about what started happening in the sixties and the early seventies,

Where this was the beginning of time in modern history,

That women could be anything besides a teacher,

A nurse,

Or a secretary.

So suddenly women are going to college and women are,

We're getting into other careers and becoming engineers and becoming therapists and becoming lots of other things.

And it's almost like there was such a collective fear that if we didn't keep up doing all the things at home,

That our right to become something other than a wife or a mother was going to be taken away from us,

Our right to have a career.

So it's almost like I get this feeling,

This visualizes like collective,

Don't worry,

We'll still do all of this.

Right.

I can bring home the bacon,

Fry it up in a pan.

Right.

And never let you,

You know,

And not shirk my wifely duties.

Right.

If you think about that song from the seventies,

I am woman was Vanessa,

Vanessa,

Somebody,

Anyway,

The point being it's like,

We wanted to do it all,

Not knowing how hard it was going to be to do it all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And now,

Now we've habituated,

We've taught people how to treat us.

We've taught people.

We are super women,

That we can do it all,

That we will do it all.

We do all the emotional labor,

All the heavy lifting worrying about the end of the year teacher gift and who is,

You know,

Planning the summer camp thing for kids and yeah,

All the things.

Right.

And it's too much.

That's why I named the book too much because we're exhausted and burnt out,

But it has to start with it.

Right.

It has to start with us.

If these things are going to change.

And I believe they are changing and I believe it's possible to change them,

But we have to stop aggrandizing exhaustion we have to stop being like your friend saying I'm so busy.

I'm so busy.

And someone says,

Let me help.

And she says,

Get lost.

Right.

Because she can't even tolerate.

We're so attached to whatever the meaning or we don't know that you could do it differently.

I mean,

Part of how this came about for me,

The high functioning codependency,

The even understanding codependency was through a story that I tell in the book about one of my sisters who I'm the youngest of four sisters.

And one of my older sisters was in an abusive relationship.

So she was an active alcoholic.

The guy was doing crack.

They lived in a shack in the woods with no running water and no electricity in upstate New York,

Which is cold.

Like it was an HFCS nightmare that even though my whole life was exploding and I just become a bonus mom to three teenage boys.

And I just changed careers from being a talent agent to being a therapist.

And I moved to New Jersey to be with my found family.

Like so much was happening in my own life,

But I couldn't,

The only thing I could think about is how am I getting Jenna out of that domestic nightmare?

Like,

What am I doing?

So I was talking to my therapist and I was crying and I was like,

I've done everything.

I don't,

I've done it all.

I don't,

I don't,

I don't,

What am I going to do?

And she said,

Terry,

Let me ask you something.

What makes you think that you know what your sister needs to learn in this lifetime and how she needs to learn?

I was like,

Well,

I think we can both agree.

It doesn't have to be in a shack in the woods with no water,

But this idiot.

And she said,

Terry,

I can't agree because I'm not God.

I don't know.

But do you know what's happening for you?

And I was like,

Obviously not.

And she's like,

Okay,

Here's the thing.

You need boundaries with your sister.

You're obviously codependently attached to her.

You,

You're trying to control what's going on.

It's not working.

So you need boundaries,

Which I didn't even know I was allowed to have with a sister.

I didn't even know that was the thing that I could have.

This is,

I was in my twenties.

And so I talked to my sister said,

Hey,

This is really painful.

I cannot talk to you about this guy.

I really can't.

But if you ever want to get out of there,

I'm still your person and I'll always be your person.

So less than nine months later,

She called me and said,

Are you still my person?

And I said,

I'm getting in my car right now.

Wow.

I get her out,

You know,

But she gets herself out.

Right.

And the end of that story and why any of this matters is that me,

You know,

My,

My sister's baby sister being the hero of her story is not that great for her self-esteem.

This,

The way that it turned out,

She is the hero of her own story.

My husband and I helped her,

But she got into recovery.

She went back to school.

She's never been in another abusive relationship.

She's been sober like,

And this was decades ago,

You guys.

But yeah,

Point is when,

When we are inserting ourselves as the solution to all the problems,

We are really centering that person's problem on us,

Not on them,

Not on what they need to do,

Not on what they're experiencing.

And as much as I thought I was being loving,

It was a little painful to realize that,

You know,

Me trying to interfere with what was happening with my sister was a little bit more about me than I would have liked to admit to myself.

You know,

Gabor Monte talks about it.

Like,

I'm trying to fix your feelings because your feelings are giving me feelings that I don't like.

So I want my pain about your feelings to end.

So I'm going to give you solutions.

And of course that doesn't actually work,

But that's kind of what's happening.

So true.

Cause we don't know how to feel our own emotions.

So stop making me feel bad and I'll fix you so that you stop making me feel bad.

That was,

Thank you.

Thank you for all of that.

What is the difference?

Do you find,

What's the difference between just,

Hey,

I'm codependent versus high functioning codependency.

What are the differences there?

Well,

If we look at codependency,

Right?

Melody Beatty,

Codependent no more.

Got to be involved with an addict.

That's that,

That that was codependency for them.

And this is,

This is how functioning codependency is for the modern life for modern people.

Right.

So the image we have is of the long suffering person being involved with an addict.

And there's a weakness associated with codependency.

It's not true,

But that was the,

That's the image.

And so when we look at the foundation of any kind of codependency garden variety or high functioning,

The foundation is an overt or a covert attempt or bid to control other people's outcomes.

True.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I'm thinking through it.

Yeah.

I agree with you.

It's always to control someone else's outcomes,

Right?

But high functioning.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

No,

But with high,

You know,

The irony with high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are,

The less codependency looks like codependency,

But it's still codependency.

That's what's so,

Well,

That's,

What's so crazy,

Um,

Is that in your book I was reading about,

Like,

You know,

These are CEOs of companies with these people.

And it's like,

You just,

The old version of codependency wouldn't say that,

Right?

The new version though,

Is we are,

We're in the world functioning,

Like really,

Really well,

Really well.

And it could be someone like that or someone that's staying home with their kids,

But again,

Doing a thousand things throughout their life.

Throughout the day.

And we're all tired.

You know,

It's like,

We're tired.

We want it.

We need naps.

We're drained the whole thing.

But it's also prioritizing other people's wants,

Needs,

Desires,

Feelings above our own.

And really,

Ultimately when we think about getting on the other side,

Like how do we get into recovery?

One of the things that's absolutely required is that you have to value,

Like what you think,

What you want and how you feel has to be more important to you than what anyone else wants,

Thinks or feels.

And I mean,

Anyone.

Yeah.

I mean,

Anybody,

It has to be the most important to you.

Now,

That doesn't mean we won't compromise in our relationships.

Of course we will.

Yeah.

That's not it though.

So much of the time,

My clients don't even know how they feel,

What they want.

Like they really don't because what they want is for everything to run smoothly.

What they want is for their people to be okay.

All the kids to be okay.

Partner to be okay.

You know,

They want that.

And they want peace,

A certain amount of peace.

And yet this way,

These behaviors that we were talking about,

They will not create peace because we're,

We can't take one for the team and feel peaceful inside.

Right.

It's,

Cheryl Richardson has a great phrase that she says,

If you,

If you don't say something to keep the peace,

You start a war within yourself.

Ooh,

That's really good.

Yeah.

That's really good.

So true.

It's so hard.

I remember in my own journey of becoming aware of the codependency and then shifting the codependency and really starting to see the whole world differently.

And myself,

The shift goes for me,

It was the shift went to from out there,

You to me.

And it felt,

And I,

And I know having 20 some years of clients,

This is what they would say as well.

It feels selfish.

Yeah,

It does.

And it's not,

Yeah,

I don't,

I don't want to do that.

That feels wrong.

How can I be so selfish?

Yada,

Yada,

Yada.

But let's,

Let's look at that.

Yeah.

What do you say to people that say that because being on the other side of it,

I'm like,

No,

It wasn't selfish.

But what do you say to someone listening right now that says,

But isn't that selfish?

Shouldn't I be focusing on everybody else?

Shouldn't I be putting everyone else before myself?

No.

Cause here's the thing.

When you do,

You will eventually end up angry and bitter.

You will eventually end up feeling underappreciated.

You will eventually kind of be a martyr.

And trust me,

There's no,

No 70 year old martyr.

When they were 20,

They weren't like,

I can't wait to grow up and become a martyr.

It just happens when there's so much self abandonment.

And then there's an expectation when we focus so unduly on other people,

Then we kind of feel like they owe us something,

Everything I've done for you,

You know,

It's does not make for good relationships.

And when we're doing it this way,

What we're doing more than actually having heart connected relationships,

We're managing the people in our lives,

Which is not the same thing.

Right.

And nobody wants to be managed.

Nobody wants to be a problem for you to fix.

It just doesn't feel good.

And I think that we've all sort of been on the receiving end.

And it's so funny.

You know,

I,

When I was such an active HFC in my younger life,

You know,

I'd be giving everyone auto advice all the time,

Like about,

And it could be somebody I don't even know.

It could be like Stuart,

You know,

Like a flight attendant,

Like anybody.

And then anybody doing it to me,

I'd be like,

You know what I mean?

Like I would really,

Really not appreciate someone treating me like a problem,

Even though I was treating everyone else like a problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what are some steps toward recovery?

So someone's listening and they're saying,

Oh my God,

This is so me.

This is me to a T Terry Cole.

What do I do?

What are some things that someone can do right now?

First and foremost is just move from auto advice,

Giving two expansive questions.

Okay.

All right.

That's your first thing,

No matter who you're talking to.

It could be a 17 year old or a six year old.

If you have a kid who comes to you and it's like,

I had the worst day and I had a problem in school instead of you being like,

Hey,

Don't get into trouble.

I don't,

I don't want there to be a problem or you better,

Whatever you say,

Tell me what happened.

They tell you what happens.

You say,

Okay,

What do you think you should do?

And then stop talking.

And this is how we get to know the people in our lives.

When you're in HFC,

Any kind of conflict like that,

A kid being in trouble brings up so much anxiety that it makes us just have to fix it.

We can't stand it.

I was just,

I was just doing a pod before this.

And then when one of the women was saying,

You know,

If I'm on a plane and two people are having a problem with a seat situation,

The energy of that conflict is so stressful to me that I'll just get up and say,

You can have my seat.

Like,

She's like,

I can't even stop myself from doing it.

And I'm like,

Okay,

But,

But we need to start on,

We got to take it from the beginning as to why,

Why should we care about this behavior?

Why should we want to change it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

We can start with the fact that it's not sustainable.

That what I see in my office,

Auto-immune disorders,

Cancer,

Insomnia,

TMJ,

MS,

Like so many things that I have no doubt that the,

The hypervigilance required when you're in HFC,

We're not just scanning,

Like,

Are,

Are people okay?

We're like scanning.

Is everything okay?

Like you're in a restaurant,

You're scanning.

Oh,

Look,

There's a wait for a table.

We should tell her we're not in a rush.

Like always trying to change something,

Make it better,

Avoid conflict.

Right.

That's what the end and the anticipatory planning is all about that.

It's like running through scenarios in your mind.

Okay.

If that happens,

I'm gonna do this.

If that happens,

I'm gonna do that.

If that happens,

Like there's no rest for your brain.

Right.

And it's,

It's exhausting to be at that pace.

So it certainly takes its toll in the way of health.

And we got to look at that and burnout and it takes its toll on your relationships,

Right?

Because we're trampling on people's sovereignty,

Because people become projects.

Nobody likes to feel like you're the only one who can do anything,

You know?

And sometimes that's what it's like.

And all of this being in your head,

Because that's what a lot of HFC we're always thinking.

Yes.

You end up living life light.

I call it like L I T E.

We're really not fully present in what we're doing because we're always thinking it's like,

We just can't wait to check this thing off the list of like done.

Oh,

The graduation party done.

Okay.

We did the done.

Okay.

Like the lack of being here now really negatively impacts the quality of our lives.

And at the end of your life,

You're not going to be like,

Wow,

I wish I was more efficient.

I wish I had done more things.

I didn't want to do for people.

I barely liked to get their approval.

You're really not going to think that you're going to say,

I wish I had more time with the people that I love.

I wish I'd been more vulnerable.

I wish I'd been more honest.

I wish I'd had more conversations.

I wish it was less directive,

Especially if you're an auto advice giver,

Right?

You don't want to get burnt out.

And many of you,

Many of you will have to,

I needed to,

I mean,

Listen,

Something will happen.

Usually there's some kind of a crisis turning point,

A cancer diagnosis,

A divorce.

You know,

My friend,

Chris Carr would say,

You know,

Everyone's got their own shit pickle.

So I don't know what your shit pickle is,

But whatever it is,

It's something.

And it tells us you can't keep doing it this way.

Yeah.

And you can't cause you're exhausted and really check in with.

So,

So one thing I'm going to have you guys do right now,

That if you're listening to this,

You're here now or you're listening to it after the fact,

We can do a quick resentment inventory.

Ooh,

That's good.

Okay.

That's going to tell us probably where we're doing too much,

Probably where we need better boundaries or we need to set limits.

So you're just going to think of in your mind,

Who are you holding on to resentment?

Right.

Where are you feeling a little,

It doesn't even have to be big,

Right?

Because resentment is cumulative.

So even the small annoyances,

They,

They will stack up and a lot of times they'll put us into this state where we're,

We're having like a low key aggravation,

You know,

Where we're just waiting for something,

Just waiting for someone to cut us off in traffic,

Or we're just waiting for something to happen so we can explode because we're keeping so much stuff in.

So once,

Once you,

Let's just say you come up with,

You want to give me an example of a resentment you might have?

Well,

I'm not an HFC anymore.

So,

You know,

I have no resentments whatsoever.

Uh,

For me sometimes,

You know,

For me,

I sit,

I'm going to think about who I,

It's not who I resent.

I get like resentful of the lack of time I have in the day.

So then when people ping me,

I go into like,

Do you know how much I'm doing in one day?

You know,

I go through that whole thing.

So that's mine.

Okay.

So that's okay.

Because you could be,

You're,

You can still use the resentment inventory as a way to make a change.

So you go,

Oh,

I,

I have this weird relationship with time.

I make myself so busy that when anyone tries to interrupt my fevered pitch pace that I'm going at,

I'm,

I feel underappreciated by them somehow.

Just you even calling me,

Like,

You think I have time to have a leisurely conversation on a frigging Tuesday afternoon?

Like what the hell is wrong with you?

Like these are the things going through our minds.

Yeah.

So the real thing with that resentment is your schedule.

The real thing.

And one of the most important things we can do as HFC is to slow down,

Slow down.

If you are not,

If you don't have a regular meditation practice,

You should,

I don't mean you,

I just mean the collective view in general.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In fact,

Like three times a day,

Plug in,

Even if it's five or 10 minutes.

Yeah.

That has been a game changer for me.

It's like a reset.

It's like,

It's like,

It's like you're resetting your phone or your laptop.

Like when you're turning it off and on,

I'm like,

Okay,

Wait a minute.

That is something that I,

That has changed my life because when you slow down,

You are able to better tune into your body,

Sit in the present moment,

Feel the emotions,

Do the check-ins.

So I'm intentionally do that more than ever in my whole life,

Honestly.

And it's been a game changer for sure.

Huge.

Yes.

And you know what it'll also do,

Michelle,

When you have some kind of a dedicated practice,

If you really do it,

And I suggest 20 minutes in the morning,

That would be my,

That would be my desire for you.

Yeah.

It actually,

We gain about two seconds or two to three seconds of response time.

And we have to because these behaviors,

So many of them are habituated and they're compulsive.

Yeah.

So when people will say to me,

I get pushed back online,

Of course,

From all the HFCs being like,

Maybe I'm just nice.

You know,

I'm like,

Here's the thing.

If you can't not do the thing like jumping up to offer your seat,

It's not you being nice.

It's compulsion.

It's you wanting to control the situation and you might be frustrated and pissed that you did give up your good seat just so that people could sit together,

Just so that you could fix that.

It's like a short term fix,

But it's not even your problem.

So I think that buying time,

You know,

That those two to three seconds of expanded response time gives us the opportunity to say,

Oh,

Hey,

That's not my side of the street.

You know,

You just brought up a word.

I remember I did a podcast.

It was a solo one on my show years ago.

And it was,

I think I called it,

Codependency is controlling whoever thought of it as being so controlling because it's so nice.

We're being so nice to everyone,

Right?

Giving all of our brilliant advice and helping out and giving our seats away and all this stuff.

And it's like,

That's actually extremely controlling.

Yes.

We really need to have,

And that's what I love about this book.

It's like a perspective shift on what this is,

Right?

Correct.

Because I have,

I too in my own practice have had pushback from people that I work with now.

And they're like,

Well,

That's not true.

It's,

I'm being nice and it's friendly.

And how can you say that thing?

The thing that I hear about now,

Um,

For some reason lately,

I've heard from a lot of people that have,

You know,

Aging parents,

They're,

They're,

They're ill,

They're going in home,

Whatever it might be homes,

Whatever it might be.

And there's guilt,

So much guilt.

Talk a little bit about the guilt that we feel that comes up when it comes to,

It could be anything again,

For some reason in my audience,

I've been hearing a little bit more about that,

But well,

I have guilt again,

Speaking up for myself and saying no and not giving up the seat.

I'm like,

Is it guilt?

So talk,

Talk about what,

What emotion it is.

It's coming up.

Well,

I mean,

If they identify it as guilt,

It's fine to say that's,

That's what it is.

What I would say,

No matter what that feeling is is I invite you to really look at it.

Yeah.

Don't just have the old familiar pang of guilt,

You know,

And just leave it there.

I'll ask you to look at it and ask yourself,

Do I have anything to feel guilty about?

Yeah.

Like if,

Listen,

Here's the thing,

The difference between guilt and shame,

Right?

We talk about this guilt says I did something wrong.

Shame says I am something wrong,

Right?

I am wrong.

Something is,

You know,

Monumentally broken with me.

Guilt can be a reparative.

It can,

It can inspire us to make a reparative action with someone.

Maybe,

Maybe we should apologize.

Maybe we did snap at our partner or whatever.

That's not what we're talking about.

The types of guilt that HFCs feel for not going above and beyond above and beyond.

We're going to need to adjust that when we realize of what we're really doing,

Right?

That the going above and beyond,

If we're doing it from a place of approval,

A place of staying in control of the situation,

People-pleasing,

Right?

All of these less than really optimal places,

Then I think we should question the guilt.

Yeah.

Should it,

Are you really the only person?

Does it really always have to be you?

Is it even your side of the street?

And I think that there's a real,

What I'm seeing with people getting on the other side of this is really sort of re-establishing or redefining what their responsibility is.

And it's not about being unloving.

I really want people to see that getting into recovery from being,

From high function and codependency means that all the good stuff that you are as this highly capable and empathic human will be amplified and all the lesser good stuff,

The lesser optimal stuff,

Like all the control,

That will be less and less because it absolutely negatively impacts your relationships,

Right?

The autonomy of other people,

Not accepting them where they are.

People become projects.

When you think about what is the real flex when it comes to love,

Right?

HFCs think the real flex is I'll fix everything.

I'll do everything.

That's me doing it.

I'll do it.

No,

The real flex is when someone is having a dark night of the soul,

Being willing to be in the foxhole with them when it's messy,

Deal with how you feel about uncertainty,

Let yourself be uncomfortable and still be with them and don't treat them like a project and don't make stupid suggestions that they're not going to take only to make yourself feel better.

That will ultimately make them feel unseen and unheard being there,

Compassionately witnessing where they are and simply saying,

How can I best support you right now?

Okay.

So question about that.

How can I best support you right now?

You've just,

I'm thinking of a client I had many years ago living in Nashville and she was an HFC for sure.

And she came in and she,

Her mother didn't have a lot of friends or other family and said they had a relationship where on her way home from work every day she had to call her mom.

And she said,

It's draining me.

I don't want to do it anymore.

It's,

I,

I work,

You know,

Nine hours a day.

And then my mom just complains the whole time on my way home from work.

So then I'm even more stressed when I get home and I've already had a long stressful day at work.

I don't want to do that anymore.

And she goes,

But I can't stop because my mom has nobody.

And that makes me feel guilty.

That makes me a bad daughter.

Cause I don't,

I'm an only child and yada,

Yada.

What would you say to her?

I would say,

Why don't we think about how much can you talk to your mother without being resentful?

Hmm.

Right.

So what,

What I,

You know,

The questions you can ask yourself before taking on anything is do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?

And number two,

Do I even frigging want to do it?

Yeah.

Now it doesn't mean in life we won't do things we don't want to do.

Of course we will.

But I think it's important for us to actually be honest with ourselves because listen,

Sometimes we'll choose to do stuff.

Like that client may still have said I am an only child.

I,

My moral compass tells me I'm not cutting my mother off.

Yeah.

And the part of me that does not want to talk to her after my long work day,

I'm going to make a schedule with her and I'm going to tell her,

I can talk to her on my way to work three days a week.

So I will call her Monday,

Wednesday,

And Friday on my way to work.

And I'll make sure I call her when there's only 10 minutes left of the ride or whatever it is that you want to deal with.

So we make boundaries.

We set limits that make sense for us where we still can be.

Cause listen,

If you're a dutiful person,

You know,

The answer is not like cut off every family member who's annoying.

That's not what we're saying.

And we wouldn't do that.

But it's also you,

She would probably be more present with her mother,

Even if she was complaining,

If she hadn't already worked for nine hours.

And if she didn't feel like she had to do it every day and if her mother complains about it,

Then you have to be able to tolerate the discomfort of that.

That's key.

Yes.

Tolerating,

Being able to sit or to become,

Become comfortable in the uncomfortable and become comfortable in the uncomfortableness of the emotions that you're feeling that come up when you're not reaching and fixing and making everyone feel.

Yes.

And here's the thing.

You may not,

You may not even become comfortable,

But you can tolerate,

Tolerate it.

Yeah.

Right.

Like I don't love,

I've never loved like having a brawl with someone.

It's just not my way.

Yeah.

So even though I can,

If I must,

If I got to bring it,

I can do it.

But I,

My,

My personhood,

I'm not suddenly a different person just because I'm healthier.

Yeah.

I'm not going to be walking around like picking fights with people.

It's just not the way it is.

You just become a better version of yourself when you get into recovery from this affliction.

A couple of questions before we end and head over to the Q and A if that's okay with you.

Sure.

So someone wrote in and asked,

I've heard as a codependent,

I'm a magnet for narcissists.

What tool is the best way to break this pattern?

Well,

Get into recovery from your HFC-ness.

That's for sure.

Yeah.

But also you,

You have the greatest thing,

Which is you have awareness.

Now that you have awareness,

You know,

And I'll give you five red flags to look for in narcissistic relationships,

But you already know,

If a relationship starts fast and furious,

If somebody is love bombing the crap out of you,

Everything is amazing.

They can't wait to take you to Paris.

They introduce you to their family.

They can't wait to give you gifts.

Sex is amazing.

All those things.

Put the brakes on that.

Yeah.

You can lovingly just tap them.

Just tap them.

You have plans to go away with your girlfriends.

Keep your plans and go away.

Because if this person is not a narcissist,

They will be able to tolerate the disappointment of that.

If this person is a narcissist,

They will not be able to,

And I doubt they'll be able to hide it.

Yes.

So keep your eyes peeled for their controlling behavior and you dictate how quickly our relationship goes.

Don't let someone else dictate it for you.

If you know you,

The person might be pressuring you to be sexual.

If you don't want to be sexual,

Don't and say,

Nope,

I have an eight date rule or a five date rule or whatever it is,

Because we know this about narcissists.

They're very charming.

They could be very convincing.

So be aware.

If you've been a magnet in the past,

Be aware,

Talk to them,

See if they have insight into themselves.

Have they,

How do they talk about their exes?

Right?

How are they talking about you?

Are they,

Are they just blowing sunshine up your butt?

Are they just stroking your ego left and right?

Right.

If it feels too good to be true,

You guys,

This is not being cynical.

I'm just saying it's true.

It probably is too good to be true because yeah,

Trust and relationships take time.

And again,

Even if somebody wants to rush it because they're really attracted to you and really like you,

And that's great.

You putting the brakes on will most likely not deter someone who's not a narcissist,

Right?

They might be like,

Oh,

I'm disappointed you're going away,

But I can't wait to see you on Tuesday.

Exactly.

The narcissist is going to be like,

After the dinner I made for you,

I can't believe it.

I got tickets to Broadway show for Saturday night.

It was going to surprise you.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Like it's going to be a drama.

They're going to try to get you to change your plans.

Yeah,

So true.

All right.

How about this one?

I think I know the answer in myself when I feel it,

But I would love for,

Let's see,

I'd love to hear the difference between healthy,

Regulated empathy and anxious codependency caught feelings.

Does that make sense?

I mean,

So what is the difference between healthy empathy and codependency?

Like where,

Where you were,

You were feeling the other person's feeling.

Yeah.

Well,

Here's the thing with healthy empathy is that you can realize,

Even if you feel what's the other person is feeling,

You know,

It's not happening to you.

And when you're in HFC,

The urgency,

Like what I would say to this person is check your urgency.

Yes.

So if your friend calls you with a problem,

How quickly does,

Do you put down all the things you're doing to then make this your primary focus?

Like how quickly does your best friend's problem become your problem?

Actually feeling like it's actually happening to you.

That's when we know there's an enmeshment in the emotions.

Yeah.

I have a great example and I've used this before.

So funny when I lived in Nashville,

I remember my friend called me and she says,

As she calls me and I said,

Oh,

What are you doing today?

She says,

Well,

I've got to take my car in for an oil change and I'm going to leave it there.

I need some work done.

And I said,

Oh,

What time do you want me to pick you up?

I'll,

I'll bring you home.

Like I didn't even skip a beat.

There was no like,

Um,

And then she started laughing.

And this is when I became really aware.

It's probably,

I don't know,

10 or so plus years ago,

But it started becoming really aware of this codependency.

And I had asked my closest friends,

You have to help me see it because I can't even see it.

I think I'm the nicest person on the planet.

She started laughing.

She goes,

I love your codependency.

And I'm like,

How is that codependent?

She goes,

I didn't ask you for a ride from the car dealership.

I'm like,

I missed it.

Totally missed it.

So I started paying attention and what you said is so true.

Having the awareness is key.

It's nice to start to catch myself like,

Wait a minute.

Did I just tell them I'd help them?

They didn't even add.

And so I learned how to wait for someone to ask for my opinion or help.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Great.

That's a great example.

Right.

All right.

Here's another question.

Um,

What is the difference between people pleasing and codependency or is it the same?

I mean,

There's aspects of it.

Codependency is a people-pleasing is one behavior under the umbrella of codependency.

Right.

Right.

So it's a part of it,

But there's so many other elements that make up codependency,

But people-pleasing is certainly one aspect of codependency.

Okay.

What is,

What would you say?

And I,

And I understand what you said earlier,

As far as like the way that we're raised or that we were raised.

Right.

I think the kids,

And we could go off on a tangent here.

I think the kids of today feel different to me.

There's very different.

Like it's not how we were raised.

You know,

We were raised as the little kids that are like,

Be polite.

Don't say too much,

You know,

Basically people,

Please.

Like,

Be compliant.

Let me wire you to be codependent.

Cause that's when you're a good little child.

Right.

Yeah.

What do I say?

We're raised and praised to be self-abandoning codependent.

Yeah.

Let me betray who I am.

Yeah,

For sure.

Yeah.

Wait,

I had a question around that,

But what,

Oh,

I know what would be,

What would be the,

Like the wounding or is there wounding?

Like does there even have to be wounding or is it just how we were raised?

You know,

It's interesting you say that.

Cause I was on the dent,

Danny Morrell's show and Danny was hypothesizing to me that this was,

This was all about father wounds and people with father wounds off.

And I was like,

No man,

Not accurate.

What it is is this is society.

And what I've seen in my therapy practice in the last 27 years is that you could come from a super chaotic system and become an HFC.

You could come from a relatively normal,

Which we would consider a pretty healthy family system and become HFC.

Because even if you even healthy systems,

Right,

Let's let's make the determination of what that looks like in a relatively healthy family system.

The system itself is child focused,

Not child obsessed,

Just child focused.

Meaning kids of school.

We're not like going on a road trip while they're in school.

Like child focused,

Whatever is happening for the kids.

The family is organizing.

Oh,

A kid does sport.

Okay.

So we're going to go see the sports.

We're going to do the thing.

When you're in a disordered or a dysfunctional family system,

Usually there's an identified person who the system is organized around.

It could be someone who's sick.

It could be the abusive person.

It could be an addicted person.

So now kids in that system really learn to focus on other people.

But think about the patriarchy,

Right?

What do,

What did little girls learn?

Focus on other people,

Right?

What make sure other people are comfortable.

Don't say or do anything that would make someone else be uncomfortable,

Even if it means you're uncomfortable.

Yeah.

So yeah,

To answer your question,

You,

It really doesn't,

You don't even have to have anything super dramatic happen in your childhood to be an HFC.

Yeah.

Last question.

And then we're going to shift over to Q and a I'm curious if separation anxiety mixed with the alarm bells of simultaneously wanting to cut and run are intuitive signs that I'm not ready for a relationship and I'm attached or codependent with my person.

All right.

So read the first part again.

Yeah.

I'm curious if separation anxiety mixed with alarm bells of simultaneously wanting to cut and run are intuitive signs that I'm not ready for a relationship and am attached slash codependent with my person.

They're wondering about if they're codependent.

I mean,

Listen,

How do you feel in the relationship?

Yeah.

I mean,

What,

What are the alarm bells about?

Yeah.

Are you,

Is it just an attachment thing where you're anxiously attached and so you can't relax because you're always worried about what they're doing or you're,

You are avoidantly attached so that being in a relationship makes you feel like you're smothered.

I mean,

The real content there from that question,

The person would have to dive into why are alarm bells going off?

Right.

Is it actual alarm because you're in danger now because this person is wrong for you or is it just unhealed original injuries that need your attention?

Ooh,

That's good.

Perfect.

Thank you so much for being on today.

We really appreciate you being here.

Thanks,

Michelle.

I appreciate you.

Congratulations on the book again.

Thank you.

Reviews

Thank you both 🌟

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This. Is. Me. at 72! Some good take away points I’m going to try to put in place with some family.
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