Grieving Gracefully With Kris Carr

In this Talk, Kris Carr and I talk about how grief can show up in many different ways (not just death), what happens in our bodies when we don’t process it, how to support each other through this universal human experience, and how to find joy even in a world where pain is part of our reality.

Listen to discover: Kris's story of learning to live with both grief and hope; What to say and not say to someone who is grieving; What happens when we don't process grief; Healthy ways to process grief; Taking a "joy inventory" of your life.

Transcript

Hello to all of my Insight Timer friends.

My name is Michelle Chalfant and I'm delighted that you're here with me today.

Welcome to my latest talk.

And as always,

After the show,

I love to hear your comments.

So make sure you leave a comment so I know how you liked it.

We'll talk soon.

And here we go with the latest episode.

Thanks for having me,

Michelle.

Oh my goodness.

I was just sharing with you before we started here,

What an important topic grief is.

And we don't know how to talk about it.

We don't know what to do with it.

And this book that you wrote,

I'm going to hold it up for those that are looking at me on Utah,

On Utah,

On YouTube.

Oh my goodness,

Everybody listen,

Get this book.

And I say to I say to my podcast audience quite a bit like I'm not a fast reader.

In fact,

I'm more of like an audible kind of girl like I want to listen to my books.

But I've got to tell you something,

I picked this book up,

Bam,

I was hooked.

I was reading it so fast because it's so relatable.

So thank you for writing this book because this world needs this book.

I'm not a morning person,

That's M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G.

So yes,

Chris Carr,

Tell us about this book.

Tell me first of all,

Or tell us I should say,

And I know,

But for those people that are listening that don't know anything about this book,

What inspired you to write this book?

Michelle,

We were talking,

As you said beforehand,

And nobody,

Grief is such a touchy topic.

And sometimes it can be hard to even approach the idea of learning more about it because it's like,

Oh,

Hell no,

I don't want to talk about that.

Move on.

Org.

But I got to a place in my own life where I couldn't avoid it anymore,

Because it was really shortening my joy.

I felt like it was boxing in my possibilities.

And I felt like in many ways,

Grief is a master healer.

And it teaches us so much about what matters,

About living fully,

About just who we are and why we're here.

And so it came at a very crucial,

Critical time in my life.

It was like I was at a tipping point.

So I was on the verge of reaching my 20 year anniversary of living with stage four cancer.

So I've been living with stage four cancer for over two decades.

So I was approaching that.

My father was dying of terminal pancreatic cancer.

My business was struggling.

And we were in the middle of a global pandemic.

So even if I wanted to write about something else,

I couldn't.

And so the reason why it's called I'm Not a Mourning Person,

Which is a cheeky title,

But the subtitle is braving loss,

Grief,

And the big messy emotions that happen when life falls apart.

The reason why I call it I'm Not a Mourning Person is because I wasn't,

I didn't want to be,

But I couldn't hold that emotion back any longer and expect to be whole.

So wow.

And I just think that we,

As humans,

Not even male or female,

Because female,

I mean,

I had a private practice for 20 years,

And we just don't want to feel,

We don't know.

We don't want to feel this.

We don't want to go into the negative emotion zone.

If emotions are on that spectrum of love to fear,

We don't want to go in that side of this,

Of the spectrum at all.

And grief is sitting right there glaring at all of us,

Because there's not a human that's on the planet that's not going to lose someone,

An animal,

A human at something and,

And have this experience of grief.

The question is,

Though,

Again,

And I think I want to get to this,

But like what happens if we don't feel it,

Which I don't want to go there quite yet.

What happens in the body,

But yeah.

So you've been living with stage four cancer for 20 years.

What kind of cancer is that?

I have a sarcoma.

So I have a very rare sarcoma,

Which is affects the soft tissue and my cancer is slow growing.

So in some ways that's very helpful,

But it can become aggressive.

So for the last 20 years,

I've been in this sort of watch and wait,

Let cancer make the first move relationship.

And because of that,

There's a lot of grief and loss that I experienced early on,

And I will continue to experience.

But in the beginning stages of my journey with cancer,

Still,

That was not an emotion that I went near.

I just kind of hit the ground running.

Let's find a cure.

Let's figure out how to take better care of myself,

You know,

All the things that have been in many ways,

Very positive because it's what I teach and I've written seven books and I've helped a lot of people.

So there's a lot of positives there,

But it really wasn't until my dad was diagnosed and all those other things were going on that I mentioned that the old grief and trauma of my diagnosis just came rushing forward,

Even though I thought I had done so much work on it.

So it was like this perfect storm of like,

Yay,

Personal growth.

Here we go.

Wow.

So something that you mentioned in the book is ruptures.

Let's talk about that.

What does that mean?

Yeah,

This is some,

This is a term that I use and the ruptures or the losses,

As you said,

None of us are going to get out of this life scratch free and stain resistant.

Like it's just not going to happen.

And I think we live in a very black and white binary world and we look,

We use specific language that can be very,

I think,

Harmful for people.

Like let's just take the example of cancer,

But this is not the only example of when we say this person won,

This person lost their battle to cancer,

Right?

So we're winners or losers.

And I think all of that makes it more complicated when we face a rupture.

So it's that moment when,

To me,

When the rug feels like it was pulled out from under you,

An unexpected change,

A tragedy,

A,

Um,

You lose your job,

The diagnosis,

Someone in your life dies or someone in your life is diagnosed and you know,

They're likely going to die.

The miscarriage,

Your husband cheating on you and leaving you for the neighbor.

Like these are ruptures and these ruptures happen big and small.

And as I said,

Nobody's immune to them,

Right?

But what I have found and you know,

So well,

Especially with your background is that the only way out of these ruptures is through them.

And yet growing up in a grief phobic,

Messy emotions of our society,

The last place we want to go is through them.

Because I think for many of us,

And I speak about myself mostly is I equate going through with falling apart.

Like it'll take me under,

I'll drown all the,

All of the metaphors that many people commonly use with grief.

And that's not the case as you know.

So what is true?

I,

And I love that you brought that up because over the years,

Oh my goodness,

So many of my clients,

They'd say,

Don't make me cry.

I'm like,

I can't make you cry.

But however,

I know how healing it will be if you do allow yourself to go there.

And so many,

I lost track of how many people over the years,

But they'd say,

You know,

If I start,

I'm never going to stop.

If I let that,

You know,

The tears start flowing,

That's going to be the end of me.

I'm like,

Okay,

No.

So what,

What is true for you when it comes to grief and allowing yourself to go there?

Yeah.

Talk a little bit about that.

I'm thinking about 20 years of living with stage four.

I mean,

That's big stage four cancer.

That's a big,

Big deal.

And then I was just thinking,

I would think about that for me,

Myself all the time.

I mean,

And then all of a sudden with your father going through this,

It just feels like did everything just come together all at once.

And then you couldn't even resist feeling that grief because I know I'm asking like four questions right now as I'm talking,

Like,

There's a question,

There's a question,

There's a question.

Yeah.

It's just so much.

It feels like it's so much.

And I'm thinking about you thinking,

Nope,

Not going to go there.

And I don't know,

I'm projecting my thought on you,

But tell us what that was like.

And then even opening the door for grief.

Yeah,

Let's start there because I gave a keynote lecture recently and I had the whole audience do this and it was thousands of people in the audience and it was really powerful.

And you know,

I had everybody like hold their,

Their hands up and like pretend that they're pushing against something,

You know,

And like imagining grief as waves in the ocean,

Because it is the metaphor that most people,

Many people use and you're pushing and you're holding and you're holding back those waves.

And of course,

In the beginning,

Like,

Let's say you can,

Let's say you actually can hold back waves in the ocean.

But after a while,

Those waves are going to start to stack and no matter how strong or how powerful you are,

Which each and every one of us is,

You're not more powerful than the ocean.

You're not.

That's,

That's a great analogy.

And so,

And you can imagine that the more you're pushing,

More you're holding,

The more pain you're actually feeling in your body,

In your spirit,

In your,

In your,

In your mental wellbeing.

And then,

Then there's another option,

Which is to say,

What if I dive through these with each wave?

What if I dive through it?

Yes.

It's scary to hold my breath.

Yes.

It's scary to be underwater.

What if I dive through and in and through and in and through,

And maybe eventually the tides will recede.

The ocean doesn't go away.

Right.

Right.

But maybe it will recede and there's sunshine and there's sandcastles and there's things around the ocean as well.

And so what I have found for myself is the hole in my heart that I will always have with my father's loss,

It's okay to have a hole in my heart.

It's okay.

Because I think going back to this idea that we,

We live in a society that likes to have put bows on things as well as,

You know,

The black or white,

We want everything to be perfect and right and hold and safe and blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Because we're humans and humans hate uncertainty.

Right.

And so,

But if I can make peace with and accept the fact that there's a hole in my heart and that's okay,

I can build other things around that hole,

Right?

I can build a wonderful new friendship with my friend,

Michelle.

I can have new experiences,

New joys,

New opportunities,

And I can also have that little hole in my heart.

So do you think that at some point that the hole in the heart gets like a scab over it or does it heal or does it get smaller over time or is it always there in your opinion?

No,

No.

You know,

We'll have to do 10 years from now.

We're going to do another interview.

Okay,

Good.

Do you know what I mean?

Because I,

What I,

What I know that some holes that I've had in the past,

Yes,

They soften,

They scab over,

Um,

Maybe some of those holes are filled with new love,

New opportunities.

You know,

I was talking on a podcast recently of like,

I'm over my ex,

Like I'm definitely over my ex.

Do you know what I mean?

So I think it just depends,

But I,

I think the point is,

Is what I have learned from this process and doing a lot of research as well is emotions are information,

Right?

So I,

I've said to people all along the way that food is information for your body,

For yourselves,

Right?

That's what it is.

And I have found for myself that emotions are information and they're just teaching me more about what's truly going on.

And as I said earlier,

We can't amputate any of them and expect to be whole.

So I can't say,

Yes,

There will be a time when grief is in present.

I don't know that.

And I want to welcome all of the parts of me and all of the emotions to the table.

Cause I think that that's a friendly table that I want to sit at.

Yeah.

Oh,

I like that a lot,

Actually.

I think about my own father dying and it's so interesting.

Of course,

Most people do know the stages of grief,

But it's hard to put a timeline on it.

Isn't it?

Yeah.

Right.

I think about the stages is I don't think that they were ever intended to be linear.

Yeah.

Yes.

And that's the thing that people get caught up on and then there'll be really critical of the stages.

I totally agree with you about the timeline.

And also I've just read so many people say that there isn't one.

And I think that gives us some freedom because if we go back to the idea that we live in a grief phobic society,

How many times have you,

The griever heard,

Aren't you over that yet?

Yeah.

To which you want to maybe break the person in half.

At the least you want to punch them in the face.

You know,

Like,

No,

I'm,

I'm not.

And also why should I be?

And why should I be on your timeline?

This is my timeline.

And so when we are going through that,

Just understanding,

I have a chapter in the book that's called Awkward Times,

Awkward People.

Oh yeah.

Talk about that a little bit more.

Yeah.

Because we don't know what we're doing and everybody's afraid to get stuff wrong.

Sometimes we put words together that aren't supposed to go together.

And if you've done that,

There's,

Look,

Forgive yourself and say,

Hey,

You know what?

I screwed up.

I'm going to do better next time.

But certainly putting some sort of timeline on it is one of those,

I used to call them cancer faux pas.

So this is my first book is for cancer patients.

And I wrote a whole section about cancer faux pas and it's the shit people say to you is really unhelpful.

Like,

You know,

Oh gosh,

You've just been diagnosed.

How long do you have to live?

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Right.

Because we slow down at car wrecks.

Okay.

How many of you have slowed down?

You were just want to see like,

Is everybody okay in there?

Right.

So people say those things or they say,

Oh no,

You were diagnosed with that.

Oh wow.

My cousin had that.

She died.

Again,

Trying to have connection and really missing the mark.

And so learning just a little about the landscape of grief,

I think could not only help us as grievers,

But also as humans,

Because as you said,

So beautifully,

We're all going to go through loss at some point.

So let's talk about that for a moment.

What I remember having a lot of clients over there is asking me the same question.

What do I say?

My so-and-so just got a divorce.

My so-and-so just lost their fill in the blank.

What do I say?

I'd like to hear from you.

What,

What can people that are listening to this show today,

What would be beneficial to say to somebody that has gone through a loss?

Yeah.

I talk about this a lot in the book,

So I give a lot of different ideas and examples.

And I also talk about some of the common things that we unintentionally do.

Like for example,

Quickly changing the subject because you feel anxious or uncomfortable or centering yourself because you feel anxious and uncomfortable.

Like,

Oh,

Well you went through that.

Well,

Here's what I went through.

Right.

And it becomes all about you.

Or,

You know,

Sometimes another thing I talk about is like the teachable moment,

You know,

And having people look at the bright side and if it doesn't happen to you,

It happens for you.

Time heals all wounds.

Nobody wants to hear that.

Nobody wants to hear that.

No.

Definitely not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But people are very uncomfortable with someone that's going through grief with really what it is though,

Is it's not just grief.

It's just the heaviness of grief and they don't know what to say.

We don't know what to say.

We don't.

And so let me share what works for me and know that I'm not a grief expert.

I'm a hurting human,

Like the other hurting humans watching this.

There's nothing that you can say to make my pain go away.

So it's not your responsibility to fix it.

It's your responsibility to be present and to be loving and to listen more than you speak.

I think that that's the greatest gift that you can give somebody going through a difficult time is just showing up for them and being willing to listen and being willing to actually say,

I'm so sorry this is happening and to be willing to talk about it because it's so scary for you,

The person putting yourself out there to talk about it.

And it's scary for the person who has nobody to talk to and feels very other in that moment.

So true.

I love that.

And even to say,

I really don't know what to say.

Like,

Hey,

Chris,

I'm so sorry that about your father's passing.

I don't know what to say.

But I'm here.

That's all you got to say.

Like,

Because just like you say,

There is nothing anybody can say or do to make the grief go away.

Nothing.

Zero.

But showing up with presence is one of the best things we can do and listen and you almost took the words out of my mouth.

I say that all the time just as a human being to feel witnessed is such a healing experience for us.

And so again,

It's not about the words.

It's about can you sit and hold presence and hold space for me while I'm crying while I'm going to share with you stories about my whomever that passed away or about my whatever that happened to me.

Just listen to me.

That's it.

It's such a healing experience and it feels actually good on some level.

So thank you for sharing that because I know that that's a question that so many of us have around grief.

Let's talk about there's so much I want to I want to ask you,

Your dad.

So tell us again about your your dad and when he passed and tell us a little bit about the journey with your dad and his final few years,

Honestly,

It's such a beautiful story in the book about your dad.

And anyway,

I don't want to give away the books I could go into it,

But I'm not going to talk about that.

But tell us in the final,

You know,

The final few years with your dad and what that was like.

And you guys were so close.

I loved the relationship that you had with him.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

Well,

I'll start with when I found out he was sick and I'll start here because I think many of us can relate to some of the things that I'm about to share.

So I was finishing a big talk that I was giving for my work and I had been kind of on a go go go schedule and I had also just lost my dog.

And so there was just a lot going on then and this was 2016 and I remember getting off the stage doing this keynote and then thinking to myself,

Now that this is over,

I'm gonna live.

Oh.

Right.

And and in the book,

I wrote that I was saying,

You know,

Like,

Once this is over,

Then I'll live.

And whenever you find yourself saying that,

You know,

Something is,

First of all,

Very off balance.

And secondly,

There might be a rupture coming,

You know what I mean,

Like,

Oh,

True.

I just said it.

Can I take it back?

And I literally got off the plane and I spent the night in my parents' house because they live closer to the airport and the plane was delayed and all this stuff.

And when I arrived,

It was midnight and my mom was sitting in the living room fully dressed.

You know,

I make a joke in slacks,

Like nothing good happens when she's fully dressed past midnight with the lights on,

Sitting in the living room in slacks.

I was like,

I'm 14.

I'm in so much trouble.

You're grounded.

Totally.

And she just said,

I don't know how to say this.

I'm just going to say it.

Dad has a mass on his pancreas.

And that was like the inciting incident.

And quickly,

It was about what do we do,

Building a team,

Like all the things that I know inside and out as somebody who's not only a cancer patient,

But is,

You know,

This is a big part of the work that I do helping other patients.

So that's a big through line throughout the book.

But I think that the way the book is structured is every chapter is either an emotion or an experience that you might go through when the rug gets pulled out from under you.

My dad's story is sort of like the through line.

And we went on a really special four and a half year journey because from the time he was diagnosed to the time he passed was about four and a half years.

And it was about intentionally going to some of the most difficult,

Most cherished places that we as humans have the opportunity to go from talking about dying to really putting together a so-called bucket list and having experiences while you still can.

And then when you're not able to physically have those experiences,

You're able to spend time and company and play gin rummy and able to share so much like great fatherly wisdom that I pass on.

It's like wisdom that every single one of us should experience.

And then through his passing and the relationship that I've been able to develop with my mom and a lot of the healing that we've been able to do.

And so for me,

This book is probably the most spiritual book I'll ever write because it was a very spiritual experience.

Yeah.

Gosh,

It's such a beautiful book.

Again,

I was telling you before I related to just so much of it.

And my father didn't die of cancer,

But it's not even because it's not about that.

It's the emotions throughout the whole entire thing.

Like you said,

The whole book that you took us on a ride with you is how I felt.

I'm laughing,

But I'm not laughing at your dad's final days.

I shouldn't be laughing only because I related.

You're having these tender moments with your dad and then the neighbor with a pool with a jackhammer going up and you're commenting the book.

I was like that.

I get it.

Like you're trying to have this beautiful experience with your dad and then the guy with the pool with the jackhammer next to you.

But let's talk about the CVS parking lot moment.

And I related to you when you,

You know,

When we're going through something and I remember when I've had multiple family members,

I was specifically my dad thinking,

Shouldn't the world stop?

I mean,

My dad is dying or my dad just died.

And then you're trying to navigate something as simple as going into CVS,

But your dad hadn't died yet,

But you're in CVS trying to buy like,

What did you say,

Like a protein drink or something?

Sure.

Yeah.

Should I buy four,

A four pack or a 12 pack?

Like how long is he actually going to be here?

And it's like the simple,

It's so overwhelming.

And then you went out in the CVS parking lot and just had a breakdown.

Talk about that a little bit.

Cause that's when I told you,

I felt like I was sitting in the passenger seat crying with you.

Yeah.

Right there.

Well,

I'm glad.

Yeah.

Don't feel uncomfortable laughing because hopefully,

And I want to,

I want to highlight this.

There's a lot of humor in this book and it's intentional because my job as a writer is to take you on a journey.

And that was how I approached this book.

Like we're going,

Are you ready?

Let's dig in.

And the moments where it gets the,

You know,

Your,

Your heart may be aching with me within a page or within a sentence,

You're going to be laughing your ass off.

So very true analogy.

It's the wave.

It's like,

You're taking us in the waves again,

Because that's how I felt.

I was in tears with you.

And then all of a sudden I'm laughing as tears are coming down my face and then I was back in tears.

I was like up and down,

But it was beautiful.

It was so beautiful too.

And it stretched my heart bigger to really be able to bring in more grief in my own life.

So,

And I think that anyone that reads the book will have the same experience.

It's a beautiful journey.

So we can go back to,

Back to CVS,

Back to CVS.

Here we are.

Yeah.

So I love that that scene stood out for you.

I think the,

The,

The gist of that scene was it was the,

Not the top of my journey,

But it was at a time when I was still really struggling to allow the tears,

To allow the full weight of the pain.

And at this point I'm in,

I'm in anticipatory grief,

Right?

So I'm in a place where he's still here.

I'm about to go back with the insurer and see him and show him that I got his favorite chocolate mocha and I'm like losing my shit in the parking lot because I'm in the future of him being gone and not knowing how many to buy.

And,

And I was rushing out of CVS because as soon as I felt the waves of emotion come,

I was like,

Oh God,

Here I am.

There's no place for me to hide.

There's no place for me to cry.

And it was funny because you get a lot of advice along the way.

And one,

Some of the advice that I got was so damn funny that I had to put it in the book,

Which was like only cry in the shower because nobody will see you and you won't run your mascara.

And I tried that for a long time until that moment where I was like,

Okay,

There's no shower stall.

There's full mascara.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm running out.

It's already leaking everywhere.

This woman's,

You know,

Was going by like,

Oh dear,

Dear,

Are you okay?

You know what I mean?

And I just get to the car and it just unloads.

And then I have this epiphany of like,

After the storm passes,

Am I better?

Am I healed?

Is it cured?

No,

But I feel lighter.

I feel lighter.

I feel like it was such a beautiful release.

And I thought,

If this is how it feels,

Why have I been,

Why have I been denying myself this feeling of relief?

And if we think about our emotions too,

Not only are they information,

But they're energy.

I was just letting that energy out and it felt really good.

What if we don't let it out?

Let's talk about that for a little bit.

I love the look on your face.

What if we don't,

How does,

Let's,

Can we call it stuck grief?

What do you want to call it?

Grief that we're not releasing grief that we're not feeling.

Yeah.

I mean,

I'm sure that there's like an official term for it.

I,

I love that you talk about what if we don't let that energy out?

Why don't we just call it energy for the purpose of keeping it simple.

I can tell you how it happens in my own life and I think everybody else has their own experience,

But in the past,

You know,

Before I kind of cleaned up my diet,

My lifestyle a bit,

Got a little bit more connected to myself,

It might have,

Might've come out in drugs.

It might've come out in excessive drinking.

It might've come out in,

You know,

Destructive relationships.

My point is,

Is that it comes out some way and it can come out the front door,

Which is a little healthier,

Often a lot healthier and come out the back door and,

And the back door is,

Is kind of wild and unwieldy and,

And if it doesn't come out,

Then what happens is,

Is that we shove it into our tissues.

I call it the issues in the tissues.

And that's when the body starts to break down.

And it doesn't mean that,

You know,

Anybody should say,

Oh,

It's my fault.

I never expressed the hurt I had with my,

Whoever,

And now I'm sick and so it's my fault because I didn't do that.

And like,

No,

Stay away from that territory.

My point is,

Is that we hold so much in our bodies and what we want to do is find ways to express that.

What we hold express through therapy specifically,

I'd say first and foremost,

Because it lightens the load on not only our bodies,

But our spirits.

Yeah.

Cause it can lead to dis-ease yeah.

And disease.

Yeah.

If we're not,

If we're not careful again,

And I'm with you all the way,

Like no judgment,

Blame,

Shame on ourselves.

Like we're all doing the very,

We really are doing the best we can.

So,

But I do want to encourage everybody to start at least dipping their toe in the pool when it comes to feeling emotions.

And yes,

Grief can feel scary,

Overwhelming,

But please do start just journaling,

Sitting with,

You know,

Turning the hose on to a trickle and starting to allow yourself to feel,

Feel it right.

Just a little bit,

A little bit,

A little bit at a time,

And then you can turn the hose off.

You don't have to leave it out.

You don't have to turn the fire hose.

Just let it come in a little bit and through you.

And this is a lot that we talk about in the adult chair.

It's learning how to feel our emotions.

And unfortunately we weren't taught how to do that very,

Very well.

A lot of us,

I shouldn't say all of us,

But so many of us,

So it can feel so overwhelming.

So what do you,

How do you encourage people to really,

Really look at their grief or that might feel stuck in it?

Like what,

How do you encourage people to,

Hey,

Let's,

Let's take a look at this or Is there a method or anything that you use?

You know,

There's a lot of different ways.

There isn't one.

I do always come back to therapy because I've been in therapy for over 30 years and I don't know that I would have the emotional intelligence that I continue to try to develop if I didn't have like every,

Every,

Everybody needs a coach,

You know,

Like I'm a coach,

Every coach needs a coach.

And so,

Um,

I'd say that's a step that's been very helpful for me journaling,

As you said,

You know,

I know myself more because of the writing process.

Writing this book was for me and for everybody else,

But it was very much for me.

Right.

So I think that there's something that's so,

So magical about getting to know yourself more because that's really what journaling is about.

You could even just write out the top of the page.

How are you today?

Like talk to yourself,

You know,

And don't judge what comes out.

It's none of your business.

You know what I'm saying?

It's just get it out onto the page for when you said,

Oh,

How,

How do you not think about cancer all the time?

I did in the beginning,

But I really don't anymore.

And it's because it's become a practice for me to do my very best to realize when I'm in fear-based thoughts and I'm in anxious ruminations and to be able to say,

Oh,

This is what my brain does.

Then bring my back myself back to the present moment because there was a good amount of time where I could be on a beautiful walk and I love hiking and walking in nature,

But I'm not really on the walk because for whatever reason,

Now I am like Deborah Winger in terms of endearment.

Do you know?

And Shirley MacLaine is my mother and I'm saying goodbye to my two sons and I don't have children.

Okay.

But I'm there as opposed to being on that walk when a beautiful little chipmunk goes by and a Cardinal that I always equate with my grandmother goes by.

And so just being able to say in this moment,

I'm in my sneakers on my favorite walk.

I am not Deborah Winger.

I'm just not,

You know,

But we humans,

We spiral out a lot.

And that's why to answer your question,

I actually don't think about it very much.

I think about it when I need to think about it.

I think about it before a cat scan.

I think about it when,

You know,

There's other things in my life that I need to be like,

Yes,

This is one of those moments where it's important for me to think about this.

But you're really kind of sounds to me like you're very conscious about it.

So you bring it in when it's necessary and when it's not necessary,

You are aware that it's coming in and then you go,

Wait a minute,

Let me bring myself back to the moment using a little mindfulness.

Exactly.

And,

And,

And it's,

That's kind of like the answer to my question to your question rather.

Sometimes if you're stuck to,

It could be that I find that we can't always solve the problems of the mind with the mind.

You know,

You can't think your way out of an anxiety attack.

Sometimes literally changing the channel might be like,

I have to start moving.

I got to go do a 10 minute hit class.

I got to,

I got to do something vigorous because I have to get out of this almost like what I have experienced is like brain rot,

Like a dog licking a hotspot.

And so it could be that it's like,

I got to change the channel.

I got to move.

I got to something else besides being stuck in this moment.

Right.

Speaking of stuck,

I want to ask your opinion on this one.

What do you say to somebody that is,

Let's say lost a loved one or went through a divorce,

Whatever the loss is.

And it's been years and they're still talking about it and living in it as if it happened,

You know,

A day ago,

A week ago,

How tell,

What is your opinion about that?

Well,

A lot of compassion for the person,

Because to your point,

That's,

Then it becomes very complicated.

And so always coming from that place of compassion,

But if it was a close friend of mine,

I would say,

Jen,

I got to be honest with you.

You've been talking about this for a long time.

And I'm saying this because I love you.

And I'm saying this because it's hard for me to see you in so much pain so frequently.

And I don't know if you're open to this,

But I just want to slide over this number of this therapist who really helped me.

And I just want to offer that to you because I love you and it hurts me to see you suffering so much.

Yeah.

You beautifully said,

Do you feel like there's a timeframe,

Like if somebody has lost someone,

I know that's a,

That's sounds weird,

Right?

But well,

If,

If,

If I'm still sitting in my grief,

Three years later,

Two years later,

10 years later,

Like at what point do you,

Because I think so,

So much of it is like,

You're talking about your mind,

Like when you're on a walk and you have to remind yourself,

Hold on a second.

I've got my shoes on.

I'm looking around here.

The sun is on my face hiking,

But our mind can also bring us and keep us in the experiences from our past.

And it's like we get on that loop and we can't get out.

So,

You know,

And I know that you said before,

You're,

You're not a grief expert.

I understand that.

But you're someone that does know a lot about this topic.

So just,

You know,

I would say that again,

This is how I think every single one of us needs to do a joy inventory.

Oh,

Tell us more.

Okay.

Yeah.

So a joy inventory is just kind of looking at your life and saying,

What am I in a famine?

You know,

How often do I experience this and am I giving myself enough resources,

Whatever that looks like.

A resource could be just free time,

A resource could be a tea with a friend,

A resource could be therapy.

It could be a fitness coach,

You know what I mean?

Because we know that movement really more than anything helps with our endorphins.

It helps with all the feel good hormones.

Like it's a mindset game changer,

Right?

Am I giving myself the resources that would fill my joy well,

Or am I just continuing to live in this joy famine?

And again,

It doesn't mean that like,

I can't imagine what it's like to have children because I don't have children,

But I really can't imagine what it's like to lose a child.

I have friends that have lost child,

Children.

And how could I ever imagine saying like,

You should be over by now at year 10.

If we can say,

Am I allowing myself enough joy in this life?

Because at the end of the day,

I read something recently that blew my socks off.

It was something around like an average lifespan and how many weeks we really have,

If we lived our average lifespan.

And so,

You know,

You'd have to correlate it with like,

Am I female,

Am I male,

You know?

Anyway,

My point is,

Is that it was something like 4,

000 and change.

Like 4,

200 weeks or something like that.

And then I haven't done the math yet,

But I'm 52 and,

You know,

Thinking like,

Okay,

What was the average lifespan for a woman?

Let's say it was like,

I don't know what it is,

But say you're 90,

Do the math.

And then you can say to yourself,

Wow,

That means I have X number of weeks.

I don't say this to freak people out,

But I say it as sort of like a little reality check because we're all going in the same direction.

And so while you have an opportunity to be alive,

Which is a blessing and a gift from my position,

While you have an opportunity to be alive,

Life is going to kick you in the teeth and you're going to experience majestic sunrises,

Right?

Both of those things are going to happen.

And so while you have a chance to be alive,

How can you live as fully as possible,

Even though you've experienced enormous heartache?

That's the question.

And only you can answer that,

The person watching.

Only I can answer that.

Only you can answer that.

But it's a question I think we should ask ourselves.

What does fully alive living look like for me?

And how's my joy inventory going on right now?

That's really powerful.

I just want to speak to something that you just said,

Which is you've had friends that have lost.

And I've been thinking about my friends that have also lost children.

And I unfortunately know many that have lost children and children that I very,

Very,

Very well knew.

And something that I've spoken with my friends about,

I'm like,

How can we,

You know,

I'm,

I would say to them,

What do you need?

Like,

How can I do this?

And when they were in deep mourning,

You know,

They said,

Please don't ever forget about them.

Please always talk to me about them.

I don't want them to be something in the past.

So,

So when I'm with those friends now,

Even today,

You know,

I will bring up their children and say,

Oh,

If so-and-so is here,

They'd be doing this and that and the other thing to really keep them alive on some level.

But I have to say the friends that have lost children,

You know,

They have and it took them a while.

I'm not going to lie.

It was not easy,

But they eventually did go on to live their lives where they still have hard days.

Right.

And some of them have,

It's been 10 plus years out.

But I think it's important to,

For a lot of people to keep that memory alive,

Whether it's your father or child or someone else that helps to keep them in the present,

Almost like in a,

And I don't know that this is the right word,

But a healthy or a loving kind of way,

Keeping that memory or that energy alive for that person that has gone through the loss.

I love that you shared that.

And I think that that is so courageous too,

Because I think a lot of us feel like if I bring their name up,

I'll make so-and-so sad,

And I don't want to make so-and-so sad.

Right.

But to your point,

Most of the people that I have spoken to,

And certainly myself,

If somebody brings up my dad or somebody brings up,

You know,

Other people that I've lost in my life or,

You know,

My two dogs,

It's actually,

It's very,

It's a,

It's a bittersweet thing,

But it's more sweet than bitter.

You know,

It's just,

Even recently I've learned a few new stories about my dad and it's just so wonderful to continue to get to know him,

Even though he's no longer here in the physical form.

And,

And also I will say like sharing his words and sharing this book and,

And being able to talk to people like you is very heartwarming for me because his memory is still alive.

I remember when I finished the audio recording for the audio book and it was the last day and I was on the last two pages and I kept stumbling and stumbling and like basic words I couldn't get out.

And I was getting mad at myself,

Like,

Come on,

Pull it together,

Dude.

And I realized,

Oh,

This is also what grief looks like.

Because once you're done with this audio book,

This is just another chapter that you're closing And being able to read this book out loud,

I was reliving so much,

Including so many things that were really fun and beautiful.

And I was sad and I didn't realize that.

This has been such a beautiful conversation.

I want to thank you for coming on today.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining me today.

I wish you a beautiful week and I'll see you next week for the next show.

Reviews

Lovely, Michelle. Thank you.