Dark Nights, Surrender, And Not Knowing

In this Dharma talk, we explore what happens when the mind reaches its limits - when all the practices we reach for don't work, and there's nothing left for us to do but surrender.

It's in these moments that a different kind of wisdom starts to show itself. Not the wisdom of more concepts or more understanding, but the simple freedom of not knowing… and not needing to know.

Transcript

Sometimes the spiritual path can seem quite hard because it often feels like we're suffering more when we're on the spiritual path.

It feels like we're dissatisfied more often,

We're maybe getting more frustrated more often.

But really it's just that we have more awareness around our experience whereas before we were so lost in it,

Now we're more aware of the comings and going of our emotions and our feelings.

And so we just have more awareness around what's happening.

And yet also our expectations on the path can sometimes add an additional layer of frustration for us because when we have periods where we're feeling very present,

When we're feeling very at ease,

We get very attached to those states and we think,

Well,

I'm getting the teachings,

I'm getting this,

Everything's working,

This is how it's supposed to play out.

And then when something changes,

When the conditions shift and we start having some unpleasant conditions,

We really push back on it a lot.

So in those situations,

I would say we end up maybe suffering a little bit more because we don't think we should be feeling unpleasant emotions any longer.

But then there is also on the spiritual path,

These dark nights of the soul that we have when we are just lost.

The ego is throwing the whole nine yards at us,

The doubt,

The fear,

The despair.

And every teaching that we reach for and every practice that we reach for just isn't working.

And there comes this realization that the more that I fight this,

The bigger it becomes until eventually we realize there's only one thing left to do,

That we have to surrender at this point,

That we have to let go of trying to fix this,

Of trying to understand what's happening,

Of trying to navigate what it is that's happening,

Because this is bigger than us.

We can't fight it any longer.

And so it's very much like a riptide in the ocean,

That if you're caught in a riptide and if you're trying to fight the riptide,

Usually what happens is you just get exhausted and a lot of people end up drowning because they end up trying,

They try to fight the riptide and you can't fight the riptide.

That the instructions are to just float above the water because eventually you're going to get kicked out of the riptide and then you're just going to go around and swim back in.

And so when we're in the riptide,

In those dark nights of the soul,

It is very scary because the shore is just getting further and further away from us and the practices and the teachings that were our solid ground before can't help us any longer.

And so the recognition that this is bigger than me,

There's nothing left for me to do,

That I have to let go of my clinging,

I have to let go of my grasping,

And all I can do is just float at this point.

It's total surrender in that moment.

And in our total surrender,

When we're floating on the water and we're looking up at the sky and there's no longer a filter that we've placed between us,

Our clinging and our grasping and the me,

We're seeing without anything separating us.

And we see the vastness of the sky and we feel the sun,

The warmth of the sun on our face and maybe hear some sounds,

Some birds going by.

And there's this sense of awe,

Of wonder,

Of how is all of this taking place?

We take it so for granted,

But there's this kind of not knowing mind of,

I don't really know how any of this is happening right now.

And yet it is.

And there is such a relief in not knowing,

In not needing to know what this is,

But just resting in the mystery.

And so not knowing is not the same as confusion.

Confusion is contracted,

It's heavy,

It's a feeling of I'm lost.

But not knowing is open and it's spacious.

And it's the understanding that there is no one that needs to know.

There's no longer a grasping and needing to understand this.

And that is where the teachings go from the intellectual understanding down into the place of knowing.

Not because we gained more knowledge,

But because we understood the limitations of the mind,

That the mind cannot get this.

The mind thinks in terms of concepts,

Of ideas,

Of images about things,

But the mind can never know the thing itself.

And not knowing is the recognition of that,

The not needing to know is the recognition that the mind will never get this.

It's why all the teachings are simply concepts,

Pointing at something,

But never the actual thing,

Because the mind can never know it.

And so while we have all these beautiful teachings of emptiness and impermanence and interdependence and causes and conditions,

And we have all these beautiful teachings and we are simply initially just replacing old concepts,

Me,

The center of the universe,

For new concepts through these teachings,

Understanding I'm not the center of the universe,

I'm a part of the universe.

But they are still just concepts for us,

Because the mind can only understand this as a concept.

And while conventionally or relatively speaking,

They're still helpful for us at that concept level,

Right?

Having a concept of impermanence when we're stuck in the DMV,

In a long line,

And realizing I've just,

I can breathe mindfully,

This isn't going to last,

Right?

There's a sense of a letting go in that moment.

It can really help us,

But it can only help us so far,

Because it is still just a concept.

And so it's in those nights of the dark soul,

Excuse me,

Those dark nights of the soul,

Sometimes dark days,

Sometimes night day,

Night day,

They can last weeks sometimes,

Where the grasping is unbearable and nothing is working.

Everything we reach for isn't working.

And the only option at that point is to let go,

To let go of all the concepts and to let go of the need to know what this is.

And in that moment,

The concept of not knowing turns into a direct experience of freedom,

Of ease,

Because now in the seeing,

In the wonder and the mystery of all of this,

Right,

They're not grasping at it,

They're not trying to understand it,

But the recognizing is to delight in this,

Is to marvel in this,

Because this is a great mystery.

We don't know what this is.

We have concepts for everything,

But we don't truly know.

So when a sound arises and passes away,

And we can even think to ourself,

What was that?

I don't know.

When a thought comes along and we think to ourselves,

Where did that thought come from?

I don't know.

Or the mystery of each of us,

Of our being,

How we're here,

How did we get here?

I don't know.

There is a point on this path where knowledge can't help us any longer,

Where there is nowhere to land.

It's simply opening up to the mystery of this moment,

Directly,

Intimately,

Not needing to understand it because we understand,

I can't,

The mind cannot grasp this.

And we seem to have this idea that somehow,

If I can just understand what all of this is,

Understand what all of this mystery is,

That then,

Only then,

Once I understand it intellectually,

Once I get it up here,

Then I can let go,

And then I'll be present,

And then I'll be here for my life.

But it is the not knowing that keeps our attention here because the interest is greater here.

The mystery is far more interesting than the repetitive,

Boring story of me that we have been telling ourselves our whole lives.

It's no longer a struggle to be present because this is far more interesting.

But we do struggle for so long with trying to be present because everything that we think we know is just a concept.

Even what scientists know about the world,

It is still all just a concept.

The mind only thinks in concepts and ideas.

It can never know directly that what it is thinking of.

And this is why the teaching,

The realization of not knowing and not needing to know is so profound.

Because in that insight,

In that letting go of needing to know,

The mystery is revealed.

The mystery that we were covering up with all of our concepts and thinking about,

We just have all these answers for everything.

All of a sudden,

They're all removed.

That filter that we put between us and the present moment,

It's removed.

And it is far more interesting than our boring,

Mundane thoughts.

What do I want?

What am I not getting?

What are they doing over there that they shouldn't be doing?

It's no longer a struggle to bring our attention to the present moment because it is far more interesting.

And so we can bring this teaching in,

In a very practical sense,

Just in having conversations with others and someone asking us something,

And we really don't know the answer in which we never want to admit we don't know.

Well,

Hang on,

Let me look it up.

Or let me just give you my best guess.

But instead,

We can simply say,

I don't know.

I don't know.

And just rest in that,

I don't know,

And you don't have to know.

So even just on a very practical,

Conventional level,

Getting more comfortable with saying,

I don't know,

And feeling the relief of not having to know.

And then as we're going about our day,

And again,

A thought just passes by.

And yes,

We're mindful of the thought,

And you're sometimes going through your mindfulness practices,

Recognizing,

Allowing the feelings,

Investigating,

Nurturing,

No self.

But maybe in that investigating,

Where you're thinking about,

Well,

Is this true or not?

Is this helpful or not?

And just answering,

I don't know.

I don't know.

Where that judging thought just came from,

I don't know.

I don't know.

That's much closer to the truth that you don't know.

We're just sitting in nature,

Sitting in nature and watching as everything's happening,

And hearing the sounds,

And really letting go of all the concepts of what you think is happening.

And having this,

I don't know what this is mindset,

Because we truly do not know what this is.

Intellectually,

The mind will never get this directly.

Sorry,

The mind will never get this directly.

And in those dark nights of the soul,

When we are in our despair,

And nothing is working,

And we so desperately want to understand what's happening,

We so want to fix what's happening.

That maybe in that moment,

You remember the riptide,

And you let go and you start floating.

And maybe in that moment,

The recognizing of,

I don't know what this is.

And I don't need to know.

It is so liberating to not need to know.

The teachings take us so far.

And they're helpful because the concepts of what we're learning,

Of emptiness,

And interdependence,

And causes and conditions,

Is so much closer to the truth than the typical Western model that I am a separate independent being over here,

Solid,

Long-lasting independent over here,

And you are something separate over there.

The concepts here are getting us closer and closer and closer.

But you have to let go of the concepts at some point.

When we say that the teachings go from an intellectual understanding and pointing up to our head,

Down to a place of knowing,

We're pointing,

The mind is never going to get it.

And the knowing isn't more knowledge.

It's the knowing that I don't know what this is.

And the mystery is what holds our attention far more interesting than the drama of our stories.

Presence is so much more interesting.

And we have such a hard time staying present because our interest keeps going up into our stories.

But when you don't know,

And you don't need to know,

Your interest will naturally rest here in presence.

Naturally,

No struggle at all.

No struggle at all.

So,

Not knowing,

The not knowing mind,

It's open,

It's free,

It's spacious,

It's a relief.

And it is far more interesting to see through the lens of not knowing,

To let go of the concepts,

Knowing the mind is never going to get this.

Never going to get it.

And you wouldn't want it to because that would take away all of the mystery.

And in fact,

Because we are so vested in all of the concepts,

We have taken away so much of the mystery.

But when you realize that they are just concepts,

And that you can't really know what this is,

The mystery is revealed again.

And it's just far more interesting.

Far more interesting.

So,

Sue,

Where you're saying some things,

There are some things that are just not explainable.

For example,

How do you explain awareness?

Again,

Awareness is a concept.

It's a concept,

It's a label that we use to point to something.

But the word awareness is not it,

It's a concept.

Awareness,

As a concept,

Is always here,

Right?

Our attention leaves it,

Right?

We go up into our thoughts.

It's always here,

We come back,

There's awareness.

But just saying the word awareness pales in comparison to the word awareness.

To what awareness really is.

And again,

Just use more pointers.

Because awareness is open,

There's spaciousness,

There's a not getting lost in the drama,

Or just of whatever it is that's happening.

There's a seeing it.

It's like the the concept that's often used of the movie and the screen,

Right?

The screen is needed for the movie to play out.

And we spend all of our time watching the movie.

But we don't pay attention to the screen.

But these are just concepts.

But in that moment,

When you're not lost in your stories,

In the drama,

Because remember,

There's not a third place for our attention to go to.

We're either lost in our thoughts,

We're lost in our stories,

Or we're here,

We're present,

Aware.

There's not a third place to hop into.

And so,

When we're not lost in our stories,

We're aware,

We're here.

But the awareness,

Quotes,

Is far richer than we could even describe.

And because our attention is leaving our thoughts and going,

Excuse me,

Yeah,

Leaving our thoughts,

Right?

Our attention comes back to presence.

We're aware.

And because it's still built on concepts,

Maybe you're asking the question,

Am I aware?

Yeah,

Am I aware?

Kind of wakes us up for a moment.

Am I aware?

Yeah.

But we still haven't let go of all of the concepts of reality,

Of presence.

Because how many of us say,

Well,

Is this it?

This is kind of boring.

Just looking,

And hearing,

And feeling,

And tasting,

And smelling,

Like,

This seems rather boring.

It doesn't hold my attention.

And so,

This is why we don't stay present,

Why we don't stay in awareness.

Again,

All these are concepts.

But we're not lost in our thoughts any longer.

And we don't stay,

Though,

For a very long present,

Because our interest goes back up to our thoughts,

To our stories.

But when we leave,

When our attention is no longer interested in the stories,

And we're seeing without the concepts of what we think this is,

Without the taking for granted that we take for granted that we know everything that's happening here,

Without that,

When that's also removed,

Our interest stays here.

Awareness.

Presence.

Our attention stays here because it's more interesting,

Because of the not knowing.

And so,

Awareness,

Sue,

Awareness is just another concept.

Don't get lost in the concept of it.

It's a pointer.

All of these things are pointers.

When we use the word presence,

It's a pointer.

When we talk about emptiness,

Causes and conditions,

Interdependence,

Interconnectedness,

These are all pointers,

But not the thing itself.

Not the thing itself.

So,

There's a,

You know,

Yes,

That we can explain awareness,

This backdrop of everything that's here,

But not engaged in it.

But it still pales.

The concept of awareness pales in comparison to what awareness really is,

Of which the mind will never know,

Of which the mind will never get.

So,

I hope that makes sense,

Sue.

And Sandy is saying,

You've watched your movie too many times.

Yeah,

We're so lost in the movie.

We're so lost in the movie,

We missed the screen that it's all playing out on.

Again,

Concepts,

Concepts.

Oh,

And I'm glad this,

Ruth,

Julie,

I'm so glad that this was what you needed to hear today.

And Philippa,

Yeah,

That's another,

You know,

Looking at the reflection of the moon,

You know,

But not at the moon itself.

You know,

All of these beautiful Zen teachings,

Zen koans that are are trying to collapse the concepts.

In fact,

That's what koans are trying to do,

Collapse the mind,

The mind clinging to any concept when it's,

You know,

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Right?

Or just who am I?

Who am I?

It collapses the concept of who we think we are.

It collapses the mind,

It collapses the ego.

And there's a resting as awareness,

A concept of it,

So we can use this as concepts.

But because everything's collapsed,

And then this is,

Which has never left,

The awareness that's never left,

All that's left is our attention keeps going to the movie.

We keep giving our attention to our thoughts,

To our stories,

And to the need to know,

I've just got to figure this out.

If I can just figure this out,

If I can just get one more book from this person,

If I can just listen to one more talk,

If I can just replicate that meditation,

I'm so close to getting it,

Right?

We think this,

I'm so close to getting it.

The mind is never going to get it.

The mind is never going to get it.

And the recognizing of that,

Of not knowing,

And not needing to know,

It drops all the concepts out.

We've built too much of our,

We have to,

The spiritual path,

Everything is built out on concepts,

Because it's the only way we can talk about this stuff.

And they're helpful,

They're helpful pointers.

But we forget that they are concepts.

We forget that they are concepts,

And they are helpful.

They are super helpful to us,

Because our idea of reality of what this is,

Is so skewed,

So far away from what it really is.

And I'm talking about the Western model,

Me as the center of the universe,

Me as a solid,

Independent,

Permanent being.

And so these teachings,

As we hear them,

And they are freeing.

There's a lot of freedom in having an intellectual understanding of these teachings.

There's a lot of freedom.

But there is a point where they can't take you any further.

They've taken you as far as they can.

And that's far.

So let's not deny that.

They've taken us far.

But there is a point where the concepts,

Because we take the concepts to be the truth,

Where they're holding us back.

Where the concepts are holding us back.

Where the need for more knowledge is putting,

Is taking us further away from seeing.

Right?

I just need to get this a little bit more.

I just need to get this concept.

We forget that they're concepts.

We forget that they're concepts.

And we struggle so much because we want to be here.

We want to be present.

We want to enjoy the ride that we are.

But these concepts get in the way.

They take the fun out of it.

They take the mystery out of it.

They take the wonder and the awe out of it.

Even if the mystery could be revealed.

I mean,

First of all,

You just couldn't.

The mind has its limitations.

The mind has its limitations.

It is never knowing anything directly.

Everything is a concept or an idea to the mind.

It will never know directly what that concept or idea is pointing to.

But even if you could,

Let's say,

I don't think you'd want to.

Because the mystery is what makes this so interesting.

Each moment as it's arising,

How is any of this even possible?

We have no idea how any of this is really possible.

All the scientists in the world,

Everything they've been able to do is simply concepts come up with.

And much closer to the truth,

Much closer,

But still concepts,

Still concepts.

Ramana Maharshi,

When he first started teaching,

He was teaching without talking because he thought that was the best teacher.

And then he realized after a while that people weren't really getting it that way.

And he started talking.

But he didn't talk a lot.

And he was clear that anything that we're saying is a concept and not the thing itself,

Not the thing itself.

We need to be able to communicate these ideas.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting to be curious about things and wanting to know things at whatever level we can know at the mind.

But there's always going to be a level that we do not know.

And it's just the delighting in the mystery of that.

When we try to replace the mystery with concepts,

With understanding,

Thinking that we're understanding,

It's like we're pulling the essence out of life.

I don't think we even realize that's we're doing.

Don't take the essence out of it.

Don't take the mystery out of it.

Yeah,

Don't take the mystery out.

And Ruth and Julie,

Both of you,

Thank you so much for the donations.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Oh,

And Kathy,

You were having a dark night of the soul and very discombobulating.

That's a good word to describe it.

Yeah.

It is the dark nights,

Man,

They are rough.

This teaching brought to you by a dark night.

From here,

Nothing,

You're grasping at everything.

I was grasping at everything,

Nothing.

I couldn't get a hold of anything.

And it's in that grasping that whatever it is that we need to know is known.

And even if that knowing is,

I don't know.

I don't know.

Wow.

And so while the dark nights,

And Kathy,

I feel for you,

Because again,

I know them.

I've had many.

They're messy.

They're painful.

I mean,

A dark night of the soul,

It does so vividly explain it.

And for me,

It was a dark night.

It was a dark day.

It was a night,

A day,

Kept going on.

And it's in those moments,

It's like the ego's thrashing about,

We're thrashing about.

But all the teachings,

All the concepts that we've learned up until this point,

All of the practices that are now failing us in this moment,

We're leading us to this moment.

The insights can only happen when we're ready.

And sometimes the conditions for how it's coming together is very messy on the path.

And yet the,

Oh my God,

The relief,

And the realization,

The realization then,

Because we just,

We're not getting the teachings here,

Right?

We're kind of getting a little bit intellectually here,

Or when you're reading a book and,

You know,

It's in our mindfulness practices too.

I mean,

There's just that little bit,

It's going down a little bit more,

A little bit more.

But man,

It's those dark nights of the when nothing is working,

Nothing.

And we're finally,

Something is revealed to us that we were missing,

That we weren't getting,

That we weren't ready for.

And it's never clear in that moment.

And it always,

The dark night is always followed by the light.

It's just this,

Ah,

Oh my God,

All that holding on,

All that grasping.

And then whatever it was that was needed to pierce that,

Whatever insight,

It all unravels.

And it's so open.

And there's definitely the,

You know,

It's true because there is no feeling of being lost anymore.

And even in the not knowing,

It's not a feeling of loss.

You're never more here because you're in the mystery.

Yeah,

It's a feeling of,

Yeah,

I think trust,

Nancy,

It's,

You can trust it because it's so open.

It's so just,

Oh my God,

Oh my,

And again,

It's like,

It's like the blinders come off.

And you're like,

Man,

I thought I was getting all that.

And it just keeps,

I've said this many times because I feel like it's just this constant peeling back the layers of the onion.

You never get to the center.

It's just a constant,

Constant peeling back,

Constant peeling back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

Michelle,

That is such a right,

Such a wise saying,

When the student's ready,

The teacher appears,

Or even just the teaching itself.

But yeah,

I agree.

Like,

It just does.

It's like you,

The conditions just kind of,

And it may not feel pleasant in that moment.

It may not feel good.

But then all of a sudden,

It's one of those things that you just,

Oh,

Yeah,

I see how all that came together.

Yeah,

The more I know,

The less I know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Kathy,

Thank you for the donation as well.

Thank you.

And so,

Kathy,

You're also saying you are grasping onto your meditation and breathing practice to save you from the discomfort of it.

And the teachings,

These teachings hit the spot.

I'm so,

I'm so glad to hear that.

Yeah.

I mean,

That's another thing like I've,

You know,

We'll kind of go,

Oh,

I'm going to try and breathe myself out of this or,

And mindful breathing,

Beautiful practice,

Beautiful practice,

And helps us in so many situations,

So many situations.

And every time that we're taking those mindful breaths,

And we're just,

We're stuck in line,

We're in traffic,

Or something unpleasant's happening,

Right?

Every time there's that mindful breath,

Like there's an opening,

There's an opening for these deeper teachings,

Right?

There's an opening that's happening.

Yeah.

And there is something about when the practices no longer work,

Because we do,

And I know like there's such a holding on to our practices as our refuge in Buddhism will say that,

You know,

I take refuge in the Buddha,

The Dharma,

And the Sangha,

Right?

And the Dharma,

The Dharma teachings,

Right?

And then all of a sudden,

Nothing is,

You know,

It's like,

That was my refuge.

And now nothing's working.

And nothing's working.

And it's almost like,

Again,

They're kind of a buoy for us for a while.

And then there's a point to where you got to give up the buoy,

Because the buoy no longer keeps you above water.

Right?

There's a recognition,

I got to,

I got to take this leap of faith,

Which I've talked about many times that leap of faith,

Which does lead then Nancy to trust,

Of course.

But it's that leap of faith,

Like man,

Nothing is working.

And yet,

Everything you did leading up to this moment,

Every mindful breath,

Every meditation,

Every self-compassion practice,

Every self-inquiry,

Every Dharma talk you listen to,

Every book that you listen to,

All of those conditions,

They were all playing their role.

But then there's a point where none of them work.

It all gets thrown out the door.

And a deeper,

More profound teaching insight,

Sorry,

Insight is revealed.

But all that other stuff got you there.

Right?

So,

You know,

We can't think that,

Oh,

We could just hear this the first time and get there.

We can't.

Each of us is our own causes and conditions.

And we just never know the conditions where all of a sudden we hear something.

Like you were saying,

Kathy,

And you were saying like,

I just,

All of a sudden the words come out in a way,

You know,

The suffering over here,

Helping,

You know,

And then something coming out of that.

And then those words coming to you.

And it's just in that moment,

There's,

Ah,

The penny starts dropping.

Not up here,

Not in the mind,

Down here,

Down here.

Okay,

I'm going to go back.

I know there were a couple.

And Nancy,

I know you had a point back here.

I'm going to try and get back to here.

So,

Nancy,

You're asking,

Isn't awareness a verb like love is a verb?

How is it different?

How is it different from a verb?

I would say everything is a verb.

Everything is activity.

Everything is activity.

Everything is activity.

There's nothing solid here.

So,

Were you asking,

Though,

What's the difference between awareness and love?

Or just as a verb?

So,

I'll just,

I'll wait for you to,

I'll look at Philippe.

I know she's got a few points here.

So,

I'll read your,

Your comments,

Philippe,

While I wait for you,

Nancy.

Oh,

And yeah,

As Guru Zongsar Khyentse Rinpoche said,

Stop looking at the finger pointing to the moon,

But at the moon itself.

Yeah.

There's all these great sayings in Buddhism.

You know,

I mean,

What is,

You know,

They ask the Zen master,

What is it that you don't know?

Or,

Sorry,

Or you ask the Zen master,

What can you tell me that you know?

I don't know anything.

Right?

The greatest teaching.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Okay,

So you were just saying in relation to just awareness being a thing.

Yeah,

I,

I,

Now again,

Because these are concepts,

And I try to shy away from,

I mean,

Again,

Awareness,

There is a concept,

There is a teaching,

And I think this makes sense,

Intellectually,

That awareness or consciousness is everything.

Fundamental,

Everything.

But it is just a concept that the mind cannot truly,

It can only know this as a concept.

And the problem is,

Anytime we turn something into a thing,

A noun versus a verb,

That concept becomes more solid,

And we can start to get attached to it.

So awareness,

Even though I do intellectually agree with the idea that it seems to make the most amount of sense,

That consciousness or awareness,

And these,

You know,

All these,

God,

In the religious sense,

Right,

Using the religious term,

That there is something here that is fundamental.

And all this,

And everything that's arising,

Though,

Is still that same nature.

So I do agree with that.

I don't talk a great deal about what this is all happening in,

Or yeah,

What is our fundamental nature,

I don't talk a great deal about that.

Because it can only be talked about in concepts.

And I find,

And at least I find also here,

That when I heard those concepts,

I got very attached to them,

And grasping at them,

You know,

You can't grasp at it.

And I found,

And this is where I've said so many times,

Like with,

You know,

Ramana Maharshi,

Nisargadatta,

Paul Hederman,

Ramesh Bal Sikar,

Where they're very much focused on just,

You know,

See what you're not,

See what you're not.

And when your attention leaves what you're not,

Meaning you're not the separate self,

You're not the ego,

You're not the thought created me,

The story of me is not me,

It's a story.

So our attention is there all the time,

Because that's who we think we are.

And we think that's so interesting,

We think it's so fascinating what's happening to me all the time,

How I'm interpreting what things are happening,

It's always so fascinating.

I mean,

It's really not.

It's really not.

If you could,

If you were able to,

And I think this would be an amazing app that somehow they could,

Maybe with Neuralink or something,

They could print out at the end of the day,

All your thoughts,

And then every night go,

Okay,

Here's all your thoughts for the day,

Here you go,

This was everything you thought.

And then in bold is the thoughts that were repeated from the day before.

First of all,

95% of it would be bold.

And you would be like,

This is just the most boring,

Repetitive,

My God,

Look,

I'm going to get over there,

And got over there.

And then,

Oh,

Got to get over there,

And got over there,

And got over there.

And what are they doing over there?

And oh,

And I shouldn't have done that.

I mean,

You would just see like how utterly,

It's just dribble.

It's just dribble.

You'd be horrified if anyone else could read it.

It's horrifying enough if you were to read it yourself.

And so,

Because all of our attention is here,

So everything is a concept.

We're a concept,

Right?

The concept,

The idea of me,

The little me,

The story of me,

That when we start talking about awareness and consciousness,

Even enlightenment,

Awakening,

We turn that into a concept that then I find is not useful.

Because enlightenment,

Awakening,

Awareness,

Consciousness,

The concepts pale in comparison to the being of what you are.

And the concepts can lead us astray of awakening,

Enlightenment,

Awareness,

Consciousness.

They can.

I'm not saying for everyone.

There are teachers that focus just solely on that.

I don't find it particularly helpful.

I find it interesting at times,

But I don't find it particularly helpful.

Because as long as I can focus,

I'm not that.

Remember,

Our attention doesn't jump,

Should I go here and then go to the third spot or the fourth spot.

It's just,

I'm not that.

Presence,

Awareness,

Awakening in that moment,

In that moment.

And it has just served well on this path for whatever reason,

For how the conditions have needed to come out here,

It has served well to at least maybe avoid one major distraction,

Maybe avoid one pitfall on this path.

Because as we've discussed,

There's so many pitfalls on this path.

It's just littered with it.

Spirituality is.

So I don't talk a lot about awareness,

About consciousness.

Even just that idea,

Like I say,

I understand it's a concept,

I understand intellectually,

And it does make sense intellectually.

But it is just a concept.

And if I get attached to that concept,

And I'm reaching for that,

I'm just grasping again.

I'm just grasping again.

Or if I could just understand awareness better.

It's like,

I can't,

The mind can't understand this.

The mind cannot get that.

It cannot get that.

This is what we've got.

This is,

The mind has limitations.

And so,

Everything that I share,

Everything on this,

Nancy and Kathy and Alison,

Philippa and Sue,

Just knowing,

Or just,

I share with you from my own direct experience,

Many teachers helping me along the way,

Many,

Many teachers,

Many teachers.

So,

I mean,

You're getting a combination of,

And I put most,

Probably not all of them on the group page,

Of the teachers that have really influenced here.

And all of it kind of getting jumbled up in this kind of interdependent,

Impermanent arising of Zmeredev.

So I share with you what works here.

But it's just,

It's by,

You know,

So take what works.

Let the teachings just sink in.

Don't grasp at them.

Just see,

You know,

Don't get,

Don't push back too quickly either.

Don't push back too fast.

And just let them settle in and see what works.

If things are working,

If you're finding,

If you're finding in general that,

Yeah,

You're more open,

You're more present,

You're,

You're,

You're more at ease,

You're not defending yourself,

Then,

Then your path is working.

Then your path is working.

If it's,

If anything that I'm teaching isn't working,

Then,

Yeah,

And that's okay.

That's okay too,

Because some things resonate,

Sometimes things resonate with one person,

Sometimes they don't,

Right?

It's,

It's the benefit that we have now is that there are so many teachers.

I mean,

Don't get lost.

I will say this,

Sometimes people could just,

I mean,

Don't follow 10 teachers at once,

Maybe a couple.

And even as I grouped the teachers together that I'd shared in the group chat,

I would say they were at different stages,

You know,

Tibetan Buddhism,

Theravadan Buddhism,

Non-duality,

You know,

Be,

Be careful of like hearing too many opinions.

You want to hear,

You want to hear some,

You want to hear some,

To kind of see what's resonating,

What's opening you inside,

What's giving you that sense of,

Oh,

Yeah.

Like,

You know,

You know when it's resonating.

And then stay with that for a bit,

Stay with that for a bit.

Oh,

So Julie,

The group chat is in on my teacher's page.

I think,

I think you just,

There's a group.

Felipe,

Maybe you could,

Maybe you could describe how you find the group page on there.

So even as I'm saying,

Yes,

So everything is a concept.

Yeah,

Alice,

As I'm saying,

Embrace the mystery.

It's a,

I'm pointing,

I'm pointing.

And to what you were saying,

Sue,

When I'm saying being,

Everything I'm saying,

Everything,

The only way these things can be communicated is as concepts,

Is as concepts.

So even when I'm saying being,

It's,

In this sense,

It's a concept.

It's a concept.

It's not the thing itself.

And when I say thing,

I don't mean a solid thing.

It's,

It's not the thinging itself.

Everything is a concept.

Everything.

And thank you,

Alice.

Thank you for the donation.

Thank you.

And Sandy,

Will the real Meredith please stand up?

So,

So let's just,

And Felipe,

You're saying,

Who is Meredith?

What is Meredith?

So there's a conventional understanding to our teachings,

And there's,

There's a conventional understanding,

And there's a,

An absolute understanding.

And conventionally,

There,

Meredith is here.

There is an appearance,

There's an appearance of Meredith here.

She is an appearance,

Arising through trillions of conditions,

Been here for 60 years on this planet,

Who knows how much longer,

But this appearance is eventually going to go.

It,

It is an appearance.

It appears a little more long-lasting than,

Than a flower that,

You know,

Just blooms for one day,

Right?

We appear to be a little bit more long-lasting,

But Meredith is an,

Meredith is an appearance.

Impermanent,

Interconnected,

Interdependent,

Because I,

Meredith is arising,

Trillions of different causes and conditions,

Changing moment by moment by moment.

And conventionally speaking,

Yes,

There is a Meredith here.

There is a Meredith here.

Not as a solid,

Independent thing.

And so,

But,

But even to your point there,

Where you were saying,

Sandy,

You know,

The real Meredith,

Please stand up.

I mean,

There is,

You know,

When we say,

You know,

Meredith is always changing.

So Meredith could stand up now,

And then she'll be changed a moment later.

So whatever the real Meredith is here,

Is just always arising and changing,

Arising and changing,

Arising and changing.

And this appearance,

As it is for each of us,

That is interconnected,

Interdependent,

Trillions and conditions,

Changing,

Changing,

Changing,

Is happening in something.

It has to be.

And that's where the teaching of,

Or the concept of,

You know,

It's all consciousness,

It's all awareness.

I agree,

There's something,

There is,

Because there's a,

There has to be something that this is always happening in.

And every time,

Like every time we leave our,

You know,

Our attention,

You know,

Every time we give our attention to the separate self,

But we come back to presence,

It's always here,

It never leaves.

It never leaves.

All that leaves is our attention.

There's something that's always here.

But it,

But it's a con,

But all I'm describing this as is a concept.

It pales in comparison to the being.

And I am going to use that word,

Sue,

Again,

The being,

Because there is something here.

And,

And being is,

Is kind of the,

I find one of the most helpful names for it.

There's not a lot to stick to being.

There's just being.

Yeah.

And so,

Philippe,

So relative and ultimate truth.

So I'm saying,

Yeah,

Conventional and absolute,

So relative and ultimate.

And we,

We can navigate,

This is how we navigate life with this too,

Because there is a,

A relative or a conventional world that we're living in.

And the Buddha was very clear about that.

Like,

Don't,

Don't kind of just walk around,

Oh,

It's all consciousness.

It's all awareness.

It's all,

Oh,

Who cares what's happening to them over there?

Oh,

Their house is on fire.

Who cares?

You know,

It's all just,

You know,

Appearances,

Like that's not helpful.

And I don't think it's wise.

I don't think it's compassionate.

I think it's,

It's delusional,

Quite frankly.

You know,

It's,

It's not,

You know,

There is a,

There's a,

A realization that there is a conventional world here that we are living in.

Meredith,

While she's an appearance,

Not my ultimate true who I am,

Because Meredith is just an appearance.

But there's a very much a feeling of Meredith here.

And you know,

What feels the best here is when there's no attachment to Meredith.

But yeah,

There's a going about as Meredith,

Meredith,

Teaching classes,

Meredith showing up for she,

Oh,

She said she'd show up at noon.

I showed up at noon.

You know,

Later,

I'm meeting a friend,

Going for a walk.

Yeah,

Go and meet that friend,

Go for a walk.

We'll talk about some things we'll maybe talk about.

She's been away for a while,

What's been going on in her life,

I'll share about things that are happening here.

You know,

Connecting,

Engaging.

So there is,

You know,

I don't,

The ultimate shouldn't be dismissive of the experience that's here,

Because for whatever reason,

We are here.

I don't know why.

I don't know why.

I don't know why.

But we're here.

And and so live,

We're here,

We're live,

You know,

Here,

Connect,

You're tasting good food,

Taste the good food.

The food's not so good.

It's okay.

You know,

Don't freak out.

You know,

Live,

Love,

Dance,

Do the dishes,

You know,

Rake the leaves.

Because we have this way of experiencing the world through our senses.

And,

And we're here.

And so let's be here.

Let's be here instead of lost in the me all the time,

The story of me.

Because that is the,

That is the illusion.

That is the craziest illusion of them all.

It's just,

Like,

We just carry around this little,

What are those hologram,

Like a little hologram,

And I'm like,

What's happening?

What's happening to her there?

What's she gonna do over there?

Instead of just being from here and seeing and hearing and touching and tasting and smelling.

And so,

Michelle,

In the Course of Miracles,

I'm not,

I'm not intimately familiar with the Course of Miracles.

I know,

I know some of,

I,

In fact,

I like a lot some of the sayings that some of the teachings of,

You're never upset for the reason you think you are.

Wow.

Yeah,

That's true.

That's true.

Or,

You know,

We give all the meaning to everything,

Right?

That's,

That's really complementing emptiness.

We give all the meaning to everything.

There's a couple other ones that I really like from the Course of Miracles,

But I don't know when they talk about illusion,

Because there's different levels of illusion of the dream,

And it depends on the tradition.

And,

You know,

That all of this,

All of this,

In a sense,

And I do,

As a concept,

As a concept,

Agree with this,

That this is a dream.

This is a dream.

Like consciousness dreaming itself,

Dreaming itself as Meredith,

Dreaming itself as Alice and Philippa,

And the way for consciousness to experience itself.

As a,

It makes sense as a concept.

I mean,

It's really,

It's no different than our nighttime dreams,

And our nighttime dreams,

And I've done lucid dreaming,

And done it as an actual practice before,

And what's amazing in the nighttime dream is how real it feels.

Like even,

I mean,

Feels so real.

And when you're awake in the dream,

I mean,

You're just like,

Oh my God,

This is,

This feels so real.

This is crazy.

Now,

The continuity and the timeline jumps all over the place in the nighttime dream,

And the physics are different in the nighttime dream than they are in the daytime dream.

This dream has different physics.

But yeah,

Just a dream.

It's but a dream.

But we're in the dream,

And waking up in the dream,

Just like waking up in the nighttime dream changes everything,

Because I can fly in the nighttime dream.

That's how I know I'm waking up in the dream.

That's my test.

Can I fly?

And I'll do that sometimes,

Just walking around here like,

Is this a dream?

Can I fly?

Well,

I can't fly.

I'm not lifting off.

But in my dream,

It's like,

Well,

Can I fly?

I'm like,

All right,

I'm flying.

Okay,

I'm clearly dreaming.

I'm clearly dreaming,

And now I'm directing this,

And now I'm awake in the dream,

And going,

Oh my God,

This feels so real.

This is so,

You know,

And you're looking around,

And it's like,

This looks so real,

Just like this does.

But the physics are different.

The physics are different.

And so we're in the dream.

Let's wake up in the dream.

The dream is better when we're awake.

The dream is better when we're awake.

And we can know,

You know,

We can kind of know there's a dream.

It's a dream.

Not to get too lost on either side between the absolute and the relative.

But it's,

You know,

Enjoy the dream.

Enjoy life.

We're here for a short time.

It'll be over like that.

It will be over like that.

So Alice,

What do I think about the phrase,

I am?

Yeah,

I mean,

More true than,

More true than I am awareness.

I am consciousness,

Just I am.

I like that it's not giving anything.

I do,

I do tend to,

As you know,

You know me,

Alice.

Again,

I tend to gravitate,

I would say instead of I am,

Who am I?

Who am I?

Again,

As a way to short circuit the mind,

Short circuit the ego and reveal.

So I think,

Philippa,

I think the way Alice is saying,

So while we're talking about here,

Of course,

Yes,

It is just a concept.

It is still a concept.

You're absolutely right.

Anything we are saying is a concept.

Anything that comes out of our mouth or is thought in our head is a concept.

But in the moment that you say,

I am,

Or who am I?

The concept,

What it's meant to do is to short circuit the concept to reveal.

And then it's no longer a concept.

And then it's no longer a concept.

Sandy,

You are so much closer than you think,

So much closer.

Okay,

I want to go to Nancy here.

You're sensing that your earth suit carries you around and the flexible fluid open and aware you become,

The greater your experiences will be.

I'm going to have to think on that one for a moment.

I'm sensing that my earth suit carries me around.

There's a lot of concepts in that,

Nancy.

There's a lot of concepts,

Almost too many,

Almost too many.

Yeah,

I would just,

Although you're saying,

Although you're saying,

You're saying the greater they will be or the greater they are.

If you're saying,

Yeah,

I would just be careful about that.

Will be,

Yeah,

I'd be careful.

So just if it's helpful,

Take it.

If not,

Nancy,

Throw it out the window.

Okay.

But yeah,

Rather than kind of saying,

I'm this earth suit that carries me around and flexible fluid,

Just maybe see how the inquiry question,

Who am I?

Who am I?

Who am I?

See what that opens up in this moment.

Okay.

Oh,

Kathy,

I was seeing the things about Eminem.

Yeah.

I love that song,

I love Eminem.

I think his music's great.

Well,

I might be back to all the rest of the questions.

Oh,

Hang on.

No,

Philippa,

There's,

When you were trying to understand the heart sutra,

You couldn't get it and you suffered for it.

And it did cause a bit of a dark night.

So I just gave up trying to figure it out a long while later the weeks.

Yeah.

And then it just happens,

Right?

We get,

Oh,

Form is emptiness.

Emptiness is form.

What does this mean?

Right?

We get so grasping at it.

Yeah.

I mean,

So for whatever it is,

Even just hear what you're hearing,

What we're talking about,

Just let it go in.

There's so much more happening at the subconscious level than we realize.

Now,

We still want to bring everything up to the conscious and,

Oh,

I got to get it.

But just let it set in.

Let it settle in.

It'll percolate.

Okay,

Now that's as far as it's letting me go back.

So I apologize if I've missed anyone's question.

But you can go ahead and put it in the comment section.

And I think,

Unless if we don't have any other questions,

We might go ahead and wrap things up.

It's feeling like it might rain again and the puppies are outside.

So just a couple notes as well,

A couple little housekeeping notes.

So we aren't going to have any sanghas in December.

So next week,

I'm going to be traveling back to Ohio for a bit.

And then January 1st,

We are starting back at the beginning,

At the very beginning.

So January 1st,

Which is a Thursday.

And I have all the classes already scheduled on the live events on Insight Timer,

Where we're going to start with just the basics of meditation and mindfulness.

And I have these five mantras,

Which are all showing us what's taking us away from peace.

And we're just going to start from the beginning again.

It was just something I don't know why I kind of wanted to do this again.

And I'm thinking I might then re-record it then into a course.

Because it's a good basic beginner course,

But it's also really helpful for us to sometimes just hear things again,

Hear the basics again as well.

And again,

To just let all of this just kind of settle in.

And then of course,

Then we'll just keep.

.

.

So we're going to meet on that Thursday,

January 1st,

And then Sunday.

So we'll be back on our Sundays,

Probably through the first week of March,

And then I'll be back in Ohio again.

So yeah,

Just to let you know that,

You know,

We kind of took us kind of far here.

And then we'll just go right back to the beginning.

And it's good to review.

It's good to go back.

Oh,

And just Nancy,

You're saying.

.

.

Oh,

So this was your comment from before.

I'm so sorry.

Before you began,

You were concerned that your dog was demanding.

Once you started the meditation,

He fell asleep and has been relaxed since.

Oh,

I'm so happy to hear that.

I'm so happy to hear that with your puppy dog.

Yeah.

I've got three dogs here.

I love my babies.

I love them so much.

And they are quite the handful,

Let me tell you.

Three dogs is a lot.

So you're very welcome,

Philippa.

You're very welcome.

And Alice.

And yes,

So I hope that you guys will be here on the first of the year.

I will put this recording up.

And I will also,

Because all of you gave me the nudge,

I will go back.

I have the recordings of the previous meditations,

And I don't usually put a ton of.

.

.

I mean,

I think I've got 200 tracks on Insight Timer.

But most of them are the talks.

And so I can just take all these meditations that we do in the beginning and just put some more up there.

And I'm going to.

.

.

I am Alice.

I'm going to reach out to you tomorrow because I need to finish up our meditation that we're doing.

So okay.

And yes,

Happy holidays to everyone.

So be safe.

And really,

Really do your.

.

.

Just do your best to entertain,

I don't know.

Entertain,

I don't know.

You know,

When you're trying to get the teaching,

The heart suture,

Emptiness,

Or you know,

And just go,

What about.

.

.

I just,

I don't know.

And just see how it kind of.

.

.

What it opens up for you,

What it opens up for you.

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