Masculine & Feminine Embodiment

This conversation on the Empower Your Essence podcast highlights the importance of having conversations that take us outside our comfort zones to help us see ourselves and the world more clearly. Melissa Sabino, Dustan Drake, and Joe Nix discuss masculinity, femininity, and the dance between these two energies.

They explore the gifts of authenticity, vulnerability, and integrity. Melissa, Dustan, and Joe also dive into some of the topics in The Masculine In Relationship, a book by GS Youngblood.

Transcript

Welcome.

We've got Melissa Sabino here,

Our first guest ever.

So welcome,

Melissa.

We're really honored to have you.

And we wanted to do a quick intro.

A quick intro.

So we've known each other for 21,

22 years.

You are in the financial industry.

And you also on top of that with having two children,

Also teach yoga,

Breath work,

Meditation,

All kinds of cool stuff.

You're helping people in our hometown to grow,

To be empowered,

To heal,

And letting them do that for themselves and holding the space to do that.

So we synced up,

We love your vibe.

And we're going to be talking today about healthy masculinity,

Healthy femininity,

And the dance between those two energies.

Anything else you want to say to that,

Melissa?

Or can I go with the first question?

No,

Go with it.

But really happy to be here.

And thank you both.

Cool.

Pleasure.

Nice.

So here's a question for you.

What is important to you about a man in his healthy masculinity?

It's such a big question.

I'm trying not to explode all the information.

So I would say the first thing to me is to be authentic.

I think that both genders are,

Were taught as teenagers,

As kids to kind of fit ourselves into these boxes of this is what a stereotypical man should be.

This is what a stereotypical woman should be.

And so being authentic and doing the inner work to where you can burn down those boxes that are not aligned for you,

And really show up as you who you truly are.

So authenticity,

Number one,

Vulnerability to have those hard conversations,

And to speak up for yourself.

One thing that I've talked about recently with a friend is,

Sometimes we tiptoe around each other thinking that's what the person wants,

When we don't want that.

We don't want you to sweep things under the rug,

We want you to call us out on our shit if you need to.

And you can do that lovingly,

You can do that respectfully.

But really standing up for yourself in integrity,

And being vulnerable to have those hard conversations.

For me,

A huge thing is energetics.

So really owning your space and being grounded and being integrated.

And the the knowledge that you've received,

The wisdom you've received,

Are you living it?

Are you embodying it?

Are you walking the walk?

Are you talking the talk and having integrity in that?

And joy,

Humor,

That's so important to me too.

I had somebody say the other day,

In regards to a leader who was being really funny and jokey,

That that's not what leadership is like,

That a leader is serious and boring and uptight.

And there's a really constricting energy and like that limitation of a leader.

And to me,

Authenticity and really claiming your space and being who you are,

It involves this lightness of being where you are able to be silly and joke and be joyful.

We never do that.

Probably 300.

Yeah,

I love that.

I'll stop.

No,

Yeah,

We don't laugh.

We never do.

We never do that.

Yeah,

I know.

So you're also reading the.

.

.

Can you hold up the book?

Heck yes,

I can.

This was not intended,

By the way.

This is completely organic.

I brought it just in case.

Yeah,

I love it.

Yeah,

We love that book.

And that's what kicked off,

In part,

I think,

You know,

This topic,

Because it's important to all of us.

Joe and I recorded two podcasts last year,

Or one or two on it,

Without ever showing it to the world.

And it's so cool to have men and women love it,

Right?

It's like,

From both sides,

We're like this lens.

And so we've also talked about the terms,

You know,

The new masculinity,

Or like,

You know,

Healthy masculinity,

Or the integrated man.

And he also builds his work off of David Data,

Which is a way of the superior man,

Right?

And so,

In talking with both of you,

And a lot of people recently,

It's a big topic,

I think,

Especially with the feminine movement,

Where it's at now,

Where men are at now,

Whether it's from disconnected from their hearts,

Or like,

Lost,

Or just afraid,

Afraid to make a woman upset,

Afraid to come off as I'm too masculine,

I don't want to be in that toxic masculinity bucket.

So I'm just gonna play it safe.

And when they're like,

No,

We want you to stand up.

And like,

X,

Y,

Z,

I don't want to speak for you.

But so I think on this topic,

The book,

What is one thing about the book,

In this topic,

That has you like,

Really excited or something you really want to share about the book in this talk?

Is it do you want me to focus on masculinity?

Or can I talk about what he talks about the feminine,

Whatever you want?

Yeah,

I need to add,

Because what you just said,

Maybe I want to add to my first answer,

Which was a man connected to their hearts.

That is one thing that I think is hugely lacking.

And I think it's because of all the cultural programming and the way we're raised and the way boys are shamed for having their emotions and being connected to their hearts.

So that's a huge aspect.

And and I think we I know we as women can feel that,

That heart,

Heart leadership leading from your heart.

So I'll go back into what you asked me,

But I forgot.

And I might add more to my answer throughout.

Bring it on.

I should have had this all ready to go.

No,

No,

Organic.

Totally fine.

Can I read it's a short one,

But can I just read this?

Absolutely.

Okay.

So when I first listened to your podcast,

I told Dustin that I was cheery.

And I was like,

Yeah,

Yeah.

And I was in my bed.

It was like six or in the morning,

My neighbors probably were like,

What is wrong with you be quiet.

But I didn't care.

I did it anyway.

And it was because of the topic of embodiment and claiming your kingdom and the way he spoke to that.

And I just loved it.

And I did the same thing with this particular page.

It says powerful plus feminine equals intimidating.

And he's talking about women who are in their feminine and empowered.

And he says,

But beware,

Radiant feminine energy and a woman can sometimes be intimidating.

Like moss to light men are irresistibly drawn to her but frightened of her at the same time.

The more in her feminine she is,

The more she'll show you her wild raw heart.

The more she'll express her deepest pain and expect you to hold space for it.

In that state,

She'll verbally attack you and push all the right buttons to upset you.

She may be irrational.

So you struggle to find a way to even respond.

She brings up things from years ago.

Her anger brings up your fears of rejection.

Your sweet little kitten turns into a raging monster in a nanosecond.

We've all been there.

It's painful,

But par for the course with any woman who has even a little bit of spirit to her.

So in your pursuit of a relationship with a truly feminine woman,

I say be careful what you wish for.

You better bring your a game.

And I love that.

Just the way he talks about how there's power in the feminine and that we're not going to be just some submissive,

Weak creature,

But that we can be connected and embodied and powerful and all of it at the same time.

So I love that.

It felt like a beautiful,

Empowering warning of watch out.

Oh yeah.

Joe,

Any thoughts on that?

Oh,

I just,

I really appreciate you bringing up that topic.

And even I love reading from that.

It's such a powerful,

I think,

Book,

But I'm amazed by his ability to just talk about the fluidity of those energies,

The masculine and feminine energy and how they both exist in us all.

And how that shows up and the play in between the masculine and the feminine in a relationship and how that just has an amazing power to support and empower each other.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.

And that's,

There's a lack when it's just one-sided and how that really completes the,

You know,

In totality and fullness is when they're both present,

When they're both showing up in their strength.

And I think that's one of the neat things that was really hammered home in that book,

Is just how much support and platform we can give each other in a relationship.

And it is such a dance.

I love that,

His invitation into that,

Being careful what you wish for.

You know,

Obviously tongue-in-cheek there a bit,

But it just,

It's so beautiful how at our,

When we are being authentic and vulnerable in that,

How that can either ignite somebody if they're in their weakness and negatively are holding onto baggage around their energy,

Or it can be a platform to allow the other to shine.

And I think that even that passage you read really points that out.

I love that.

And he talks about really supporting and allowing the fullness in each and how there's equality,

But not sameness.

Right.

I love it.

Brilliant.

Mm-hmm.

I think that was,

Oh,

Excuse me,

Dustin.

That's fine.

I thought that was one of the few places that I've actually seen him go in depth about sameness and how toxic sameness can be.

And I think there's an immense amount of that happening in our culture.

Honestly,

I think a lot of it is accidental.

Like it was trying to be empowering and evolving in just breaking down barriers between genders and even these energies.

But I think a very negative side of that has obviously been just the sameness that's come out of it.

How much there is copying of what's happening in between genders,

In between these just masculine and feminine energies.

And that sameness doesn't have the polarity,

Doesn't have the excitement,

Doesn't have the attraction.

I feel like that was a huge piece of that.

So much of what ignites relationship is that polarity,

Is that attraction,

That excitement that creates.

And it disappears in sameness.

And so I think something we feel like we've been fighting for for years culturally has actually ended up in kind of deadening.

I don't know.

It's not really the right word I wanted to say.

Limiting us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Limiting and kind of muting a lot of the beauty that we hold and that can be experienced in a relationship.

I completely agree with that.

Melissa and I talked a lot about this.

We had some really cool conversations about this.

I love that we're talking about this because this is,

Like I said at the start,

For me this is a really big topic and what you just said is a massive topic.

And in full vulnerability,

Part of why this is so exciting is there's a lot of.

.

.

I would say there was a lot of elements of me as a man,

What I define as a man,

Right?

Which might not be the same for everybody.

But for me,

It's very in alignment with what you said,

Melissa.

I'm operating from my heart.

I am aware of my emotions.

I can communicate them without reacting and projecting them.

So then that offers the safety,

One of the pillars of the book as people.

But I think especially in that polarity for the feminine,

The feminine is like,

Okay,

Like there's physical,

Financial,

But the emotional piece,

I feel like for me,

That was not my forte for a lot of years.

I was totally out there.

This has been a big journey for me to where this is so important.

And I love.

.

.

If you had asked me 10 years ago,

I might be doing a podcast on healthy masculinity,

I would have been like,

What are you talking about?

It would have been so silly to me.

But so I like that piece because it's not same and it's equal.

I respect you equally as a sentient being,

As a soul,

As a living human.

And I don't want to be the same as you.

And I don't want you to be the same as me.

I want that polarity.

And so kind of through several things there,

But I think that piece is really important to me.

And the more that I talk to women about it,

They're just like,

Hallelujah,

Yes.

Do that.

We want more men like that.

And so,

Yeah,

I think it's that.

That's brilliant,

Joe.

I love that.

What are your thoughts on that part,

Melissa?

Anything else you want to add to that or resonates?

There's so many things.

I'm having like an explosion out of my brain.

It's hard to it's hard to bring it out.

We talked a lot about this when you and I talked.

And it was just this realization.

In our attempt to be equal,

We've kind of swung the pendulum too far.

Where,

Like you both said,

We're not really honoring the differences,

We're not really allowing the differences.

What I was telling Dustin is that I think we're all at the step that we're at,

Though.

So we might be at a place where we're really,

Really needing the equality.

And we might be really angry.

And we might need to be angry.

Or we might be in a place where we're really needing to take space from the other gender.

Or we might be in a place where we're just doing a ton of our inner work.

And we're not even really looking at the differences in gender or the differences in those energies within us.

And I think honoring where we're at in our journey is really important.

But ultimately,

We do need to own what's ours.

And ultimately,

We do need to do our inner work.

Because if we don't see ourselves,

We can never see others clearly.

But there's just so many layers in that.

And they're all important and purposeful.

There's more,

And it's just.

.

.

Yeah.

Well said.

Thank you.

Yeah,

That to me.

So when I think of like healthy polarity,

What has been so passionate,

What I've been so passionate about this is I love what you said.

There's a masculine energy and a feminine one.

It doesn't matter the gender,

But there are those energies.

And usually one is more dominant than someone.

Like Joe said,

We all have it both in us.

And it's like,

Okay,

How do we get the most polarity with the most amount of respect and honoring the differences so we can embody and be nurtured and loved by the other polarity?

And when Melissa and I started talking about this a couple weeks ago,

The whole feminist movement came up.

And as an example,

So I think Melissa is going to really like this.

I was like,

Look,

In the past,

As a weak man,

As not what I would define in my healthy masculinity,

I would have been afraid to like,

Oh my gosh,

I'm sensing some powerful feminine energy here.

I'm going to shrink and just be nice and just go along with it and just kind of smile and nod.

And I definitely didn't do that.

And I did something that's important to me is I sought to understand.

So I said,

Look,

I'm,

By definition of feminist,

You look in the dictionary,

Equal,

Lovely.

I'm also very proud that I have the courage to say,

Especially in a podcast,

That I'm not okay with part of the dark side,

Where the feminist movement has gone to where it's either bitterness or anger,

Or then like putting down men.

And it's like,

Wait a minute,

I thought we were trying to be equal.

And so then I asked Melissa,

I'm like,

Okay,

In your embodiment of like,

I'm a woman,

I have a voice,

I want to be equal.

And what I would say,

Claiming healthy femininity,

Like,

Okay,

This is a cool opportunity.

So then I sought to understand you.

And I was like,

Well,

Okay.

Like,

What does this mean to you?

Or why would you be opposed to toxic masculinity?

What do you what would you have against that?

Or how is that showing itself in your life?

And I kind of want you to take it from here,

Melissa,

Because that was a big shift.

And I would say a big excitement that we're talking to kind of birth this topic.

Yeah.

Okay.

So first of all,

I wanted to say that how awkward that conversation was,

And there is so much respect and care between us.

And it was still so awkward at first.

And we were both like asking these really deep questions.

And we were both like,

Uh,

We didn't know what to say.

It was like,

These powerful knowings internally of like,

This is why this is not right.

This is why things are the way they are,

Whatever our perceptions were,

Like we could neither one of us could really communicate them.

It was so much of us making individual experiences with certain people about the broad scope of that gender itself.

Or what Dustin brought up when we talked is it was more about power dynamics,

And not even about gender at all.

And so it was like,

We kept having to like pause and okay,

Okay,

But there was this openness and this respect that allowed the conversation to happen.

And then we both just had all these downloads throughout the next days and weeks of like,

Oh,

Okay,

And this and then he brought up the book and it was just it,

It opened the door to having more conversation.

So for anybody listening,

If you're wanting to have a hard conversation,

It might be awkward as hell at first,

It doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong.

The fact that it is uncomfortable means you are taking a step and that's beautiful.

But what I was sharing about my journey with this,

That really ties to what I had perceived as toxic masculinity,

Through my perception,

Not that that's not there.

But I had,

I was talking to him about just what women have been through collectively,

Which I think is really important for people to hear.

And I would love to hear what you guys have to say about masculinity afterwards,

Just to share your perspective on that.

But we're looking at ancestrally and collectively,

And I know this is a tough topic,

But like so much rape,

So much molestation,

You know,

Witches were burned because we were intuitive and we spoke our truth and we were connected to the earth.

And,

You know,

It wasn't until recently that women were not literally owned by men.

And so all of that is still in our bodies,

Right?

As women,

That's,

It's in our bodies.

We come into this body as a woman and it's there and it's asking to be looked at,

Felt,

Healed,

All the things.

So that's collective,

Ancestral,

Our families.

And a lot of time with women,

When something does happen to us,

We are met with like,

Well,

That's just what happens to us as women.

You need to shrink.

You need to be small.

You need to hide your beauty.

If you're in your fullness,

Something horrible is going to happen to you and it's your fault.

So there's that.

And then when,

Then,

You know,

A lot of us have had sexual abuse or abuse of some kind.

So there's the individual experience that we're processing as well.

So for me,

It was all of the above.

I was sexually abused when I was nine years old.

I held it in my body for a long,

Long,

Long time,

Looking at ancestral healing,

Looking at collective healing,

Looking at,

You know,

Healing in just the collective feminine through a lot of the energy work that I've done.

And I noticed one of the first experiences that I noticed when I was really deep diving in my path was my son.

So I was in a hotel room one night and I was with my daughter one night in my bed.

And then I was with my son one night in the other bed and I was with my daughter and I felt so safe,

So loved.

I was able to sleep fine,

No issues.

Then the next night I was with my son and he rolled over and I was almost asleep,

Not at all conscious to this.

And I like immediately put my hand down and like protected myself.

And I think he was eight or nine at the time.

And it was this instinctive,

Like,

I am not safe.

Don't touch me.

And I didn't hurt him.

He was completely sound asleep.

But I was like,

Whoa,

That was intense.

That meant something.

And the more I processed my trauma,

The more I process the collective trauma that I was holding in my body and all the layers that continue to unfold with that,

The more I was able to see every man in my life more clearly.

And I was telling Dustin,

It was like I had these sunglasses on where every person I was seeing from that gender,

I was seeing through the men who have objectified me,

Who have hurt me,

Who have taken advantage of me.

And the more inner work I do,

The more I can let that go and really claim my space,

The more I can see myself,

Like I was saying before,

And also see others.

But having these conversations,

Like having a conversation with Dustin,

Talking to you today,

Joe,

It deepens that.

It opens it up even more.

After Dustin and I had talked,

And after I started reading the book a bit,

I was saying that I was at a baseball practice for my son.

And there was all these coaches and fathers and little kids and a lot of men,

A lot of boys.

And I was just sitting back.

And it was I could see this softness.

I could see this presence.

I could see this depth in complete strangers.

I didn't talk to them.

I didn't have deep conversations.

But energetically,

There was this huge shift in seeing that in people that I trust and respect,

And then how that expands collectively.

You got goosebumps.

Yeah.

That was so good and so authentic and so vulnerable.

You literally just stepped up and shared.

Thank you for that.

You're welcome.

Wow.

And I want to hear about you too,

With your experience.

But I know that's a lot.

Joe,

Do you want to I mean,

I have so much I could ask.

I know I've kind of had the upper hand of knowing her already.

So is there anything that you want to I'll kind of leave any feedback,

Any insights,

Any questions right now before I jump in?

Yeah,

I really first just wanted to say thank you again,

Just so much for your vulnerability there and sharing sharing your side story or understanding that not just you just the speaking to the weight of what you're born into speaking to the weight of just the history of that the dynamic in between the masculine and the feminine for so many years.

And just the the the weight that you carry,

Just before you even start dealing with it,

Just stepping historically into that.

And just the your openness about to I loved how you started mentioning that this this can be such a uncomfortable topic to step into,

To broach to start dialoguing with each other,

And how that is,

That's just a necessary part of it,

That actually is an aspect of it being worthwhile,

Is that discomfort is stepping into that,

And that we can't know clarity that we can't know true authenticity,

Without,

Without having these conversations without being willing to,

To discover to ask questions to hear things that might be incredibly uncomfortable to hear,

To say things,

You know,

Expressing that,

The hurt,

The pain,

The damage,

And then just the just so grateful for your allowing us to see you in that too.

And I think this is,

This is such a healthy topic to be dialoguing on,

Because we do want to grow,

We do want to build those bridges,

And that can't happen without a level of,

Of uncomfortable,

It can't happen without,

Without stumbling without saying the wrong thing.

And I know,

I wanted to ask,

Because this has come up for Dustin and I,

Even just talking about other,

Other topics around masculinity and the mask wearing and trying to show a certain,

A certain energy,

A certain strength,

And how that,

How that can be so unconscious at times,

Just slipping into that.

I want to know just what,

What's helped empower you to step into your femininity?

What's helped empower you to start asking questions to start?

I know you told the story about the situation of sleeping with your,

Your daughter and then a son that was,

That was incredibly,

I think,

Eye-opening just to,

To be able to hear that and see that and taking us there with you.

But just kind of other things that have,

That have sparked that interest and encouraged you to continue on this path of self-discovery and discovery of,

Of other.

Yeah,

It's a really good question.

So a lot of it was having my children and wanting to be a good mother and this awareness of,

I don't want to hand them a giant house full of shit they have to process when they get older,

Maybe just a suitcase,

Because I know I'm going to do some damage because I'm far from perfect.

And I don't think any parent is,

But I wanted to make it as small as possible of what I'm handing off to them.

And we'll see,

We'll have to ask them in a,

In a few years how big it is.

A lot of it was I'm adopted.

And so there was a lot of grief that I've been processing since I was very,

Very young.

And that really cracks you open to life for everybody who's experienced grief,

Like Dustin was talking about with your breakup.

It really just cracks you open and you see things so differently and you move through life so differently.

And you learn to be able to hold a lot of it.

So you can hold that depth of joy and that depth of pain,

And you can just really be with all of it more and more.

So much of it was just being guided and sometimes forced to take steps energetically.

Meaning that I was just so soul led to do things,

I wasn't necessarily aware of what was happening at the time.

And I did an intuitive training to learn how to read energy and heal.

And we were really diving into healing with that.

And the more you,

The more inner work I've done on myself,

And you get to the other side,

And you're just sitting in the poo,

You're just sitting in the pain,

And it's so uncomfortable,

And you think you're going to absolutely die.

And then you do die like 1000 times.

And then you're reborn.

Every time in it,

Just you're more in your authenticity,

You're more in your joy,

And it just feels so good.

Yeah,

Each layer that you shed,

That when you do hit that next level,

You're like,

Oh,

Hell yeah,

It's gonna be if it's if this feels that bad right now,

It's going to feel that much better.

When I get to the other side of it.

But I know that that first step is harder,

Because you don't have that awareness of like,

Yes,

This sucks.

It's so hard,

But it's going to be worth it.

But once you have that,

I feel like it's just kind of conditioning yourself.

And,

And having that intention to to really fully be who I meant to be,

And to show up and to be of service.

I think that bleeds into everything.

And I and I'm open.

And I,

Because I have that intention,

And it's so strongly in me that I trust everything on my path.

And I really,

Really,

Really listened to my heart.

And I know,

After ignoring it for a very long time.

Oh,

That's beautiful.

Thank you for that.

Yeah,

Yeah,

What just came up for me is,

Given that we have known each other for such a long time.

It's really cool to see how different you are,

How much you've grown out different.

It's the same,

You're you.

But I think I'm a pretty good testament to like,

Are you really talking the talk and walking the walk or walking the walk?

And it's really cool.

Because your silliness is still there,

Your joy is still there,

You're freaking hilarious.

And you've grown immensely.

And so for me,

As a man,

When I'm thinking of healthy femininity,

I mean,

You're,

I feel the authenticity in what you're talking about.

And,

And that's means a lot to me.

In this topic,

I think you can,

My opinion,

I don't think it's possible to be really unhealthy masculinity or really unhealthy femininity,

Maybe very few people,

But people that I've met in my life,

You get there by getting to really know yourself,

Honoring the light and the shadow of ourselves.

And,

You know,

We would call it doing the work or like facing our stuff or,

And I think for some people,

You know,

Whether it's a better childhood or a more horrible childhood,

Whatever the spectrum,

I think the principle still stands.

It's just,

Maybe you don't have a lot of trauma to go through,

Or maybe you don't really have much at all.

You still,

I think,

Need to know who you are and be connected with yourself.

And so for me,

So I'm like,

I don't care what your sexual orientation is.

I don't care what your gender is.

I don't care where you're born,

What language you speak,

What color your skin is.

I don't care at all.

But what I do care about is how well do I know myself?

If I'm straight as a man,

How much am I embodying healthy masculinity?

What does it look like to me?

In this book,

The three things,

Just for those who don't know the book,

We talked about one is providing safety for the feminine energy,

Whatever that is.

And then the second one was provide structure and provide leadership.

And so I want to segue into this piece,

I think for especially women right now with culturally what's going on.

So Melissa,

You already know,

You're laughing.

Oh my God.

All right.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I want to ask you on that leadership piece,

What,

When I mentioned that,

When you were hanging out,

You were like,

You got,

You were like,

Whoa,

You got uncomfortable.

And so I want to ask you,

Like,

If you could share with us what came up for you when I just said the word the first time,

Like,

What do you think?

Or what did you think that meant?

Maybe what do you think about it now?

Kind of a healthy embodiment of a man doing that for the feminine,

How that may be nourishing,

What that means to you?

Because I think this is a big one.

Yeah.

It's hilarious because my second shocker again is like,

What's happening?

What are you doing?

Why are you here?

Why are you sharing this?

So I'm put like,

What?

I'm out.

But all the other ones are like,

We're cool.

Let's keep going.

So I remember we were talking about this and he was driving and he was talking about how,

You know,

The masculine is meant to lead.

And I was like,

Yeah,

I don't know about that.

And I was like,

Here's you and here's me.

Like we're side by side.

Right.

I don't want none of that.

Right.

I don't want none of that.

And we had a good conversation.

But yeah,

I didn't understand what he was saying.

And he,

You know,

You had acknowledged that you didn't maybe communicate it as thoroughly as the book had.

So there was some miscommunication there.

But yeah,

I was fully,

I was fully aware that my body was not a fan of that particular statement.

And the book talks about this and what him and I have talked about since is it's not about leadership in the way that we are unfortunately seen in this world right now,

Where we see leaders who are power over their manipulation.

There's control.

A lot of that is the toxic masculinity that this is completely different.

This is an embodied leadership where you are owning your space.

You are showing up authentically.

You are fully being who you are and being who you fully are and embodying that and being a leader.

To me,

It's less about leading and more about being in the energy of a leader,

Being a leader.

And that's not about your role.

That's not about what you're doing.

That's,

That's your energy.

That's who you are being.

It's that integrity with who you are.

And that,

That is felt by others and that is trusted and that is respected.

And I can just give the example with you,

Dustin.

It was like,

You know,

Let's do this and here I'm going to set this up.

And what do you think about that?

And there was this like energy of leading where it wasn't controlling,

It wasn't manipulating,

But I was able to just take a deep breath and trust and like breathe and knowing that things are taken care of,

Knowing they don't have to manage everything.

In the book,

It talks about,

Just how much we as women are doing.

And then a lot of times we're babysitting our partner too,

And they're not stepping up and they're not showing up and they're not helping as much as they can.

And so it's just like all the things.

And then you're kind of in that constant energy where like,

You don't get to breathe.

You don't get to take a breath.

You don't get to just like be in your flow as a feminine and connect with your intuition.

And there's like this softness and this ease that is hard to connect to that I think the feminine energy so beautifully and powerfully connects to when we're having to take care of everything.

And so what the book talks about,

Which I agree with is this energy of showing up and taking care of your stuff and really embodying that energy in yourself.

And to me,

It's so subtle and felt.

If somebody were to tell me,

Hey,

Do this from a different energy,

I'd immediately be in resistance to that.

Don't you tell me what to do.

I'm not your child,

But it's different.

It's this equality.

It's this,

I'm going to take care of this for both of us,

But I'm going to include you.

I'm going to check in with you.

So I liked how the book broke it down and how we talked about that more.

But yeah,

My second shocker is still not sure about it.

I'm working through some layers with that.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that point,

Especially what you said about,

About it's not really about leading.

It's just about like embodying and being grounded in yourself and kind of knowing what you want and what you don't want.

Right.

Like,

I think that was a big piece.

I didn't articulate when I was first bringing it up.

Probably because you sensed my rage coming at you.

Yeah.

Well,

I sense,

Honestly,

What I sensed,

Which is why I'm speaking up now is I'm like,

There seems to be a disproportional rage,

Anger,

Frustration,

Annoyance,

Bitterness,

Something.

I'm like,

And I'm like,

I want to know why.

And that,

I want to touch back on what we alluded to earlier.

Yeah.

Is when I sought to understand you,

I just got quiet.

And I was like,

Here's my two cents.

Just I'm going to sit me.

I'm just going to,

I'm going to listen.

I'm going to pull up my popcorn and just,

You're going to be listening.

I want to learn.

And that was beautiful because you,

When you were humble enough,

You were open enough to be like,

I don't be,

You kind of just checked yourself and you're like,

I don't really.

Oh,

Like,

I don't think I'm clear on this.

And then you went about like,

It was men that were doing it,

But they were also doing it to other men when other women and I didn't like it.

And so that wasn't gender related.

And this was in all humbleness,

I'll share mine.

You then flipped it back on me.

So you were like,

You went through the motions,

It was authentic,

And you really thought about it.

And then of course,

I'm feeling good.

I'm like,

Cool.

You know,

You know,

Grounded.

I'm interested.

I have respect.

I'm genuine.

It's all good.

And I felt really just,

I was like,

Cool.

And then you're like,

Well,

What about you?

And you flipped it back on me.

She did the same thing back to me.

And,

And this is something I really want to share because I think it's important for men to hear and for women,

Just however you're going to take it,

Is I realized I was unconsciously,

Almost hypocritically doing the same thing without knowing it.

And here's the example that I'll give to make that clear,

Is what I didn't like,

What I still don't like about I think,

Toxic femininity,

I'm gonna throw that new term in there,

Is like just an anger towards men in general,

And that I'm being thrown in the bucket.

And my understanding from you Melissa was like,

But yeah,

Like,

We're women,

I'm a woman,

I need to stand up against this.

It's not right.

And then as a man of being like,

I don't like this unhealthy femininity.

And then you asked me where it's at.

And then I'm like,

Fumbling my words.

And I'm like,

I'm doing the same thing where I need to stick up for men in general.

But like,

Whoa.

And so we came to this just quietness.

Like,

Wait a minute.

And so where I landed with that was seeking to understand more,

Being very aware that whatever energy I have may also have a little disproportion to it.

And maybe an unconscious hypocriticism there,

Like what's behind that?

And if I can then instead,

I think do what I did right with you,

If you would,

I think you would agree with that.

Right?

And then also be like,

Hmm,

This,

Now be mindful of what I was doing unconsciously.

And I think if men and women,

If we're both doing what you and I did that day,

Like if you don't have a charge around it,

Cool,

Then,

You know,

But for those people that do have a charge around this or are passionate about it,

Or the women that are like,

Yeah,

Like,

No,

Like,

There's some stuff that's happened to my family or to me and just no,

I'm not okay with that.

I think this bridges the gap and gets us back in our hearts,

Seeking to understand,

Respecting and not unconsciously contributing to maybe the next year of this process to get in the pendulum swung.

And now it's kind of coming back to middle.

Yeah.

Thoughts from either of you on that?

I think we are here to create new cycles of masculine and feminine partnership.

And that's not just romantic.

That's just how we can partner together to grow,

To evolve.

We have to change the dance and it has to start with us.

And it always starts with ourselves and how we're seeing ourselves,

How we're showing up in the world,

How we're seeing each other.

And yeah,

That was,

It was super eyeopening for me to have that conversation and to just,

Like you said,

Let's pause.

Let me understand.

Oh,

Oh crap.

And then I just had this flood of memories of like this,

My son that I would,

That I would have already shared.

I thought about times at work where men would walk up to ask me a question and like,

They could just see the fire where they're like,

I'll come back.

I'll come back.

It's we're fine.

And I have a really good relationship with the people I work with,

But it was just like,

Oh yeah,

I get it.

And,

And even seeing more and more there that I can have these conversations with them.

And,

And it can just,

Even if both people aren't super comfortable,

If you are in your authenticity and if you're being vulnerable,

That person might just meet you.

And if they can't meet you,

You're planting a seed and maybe it'll simmer and maybe the next person or the next person,

It just,

We're,

We're planting so many seeds and we need each other to get to this next step.

It's not this,

I know for me,

It's,

I'm not seeking to destroy all men to take over the world.

We're,

We're seeking balance.

We're seeking our,

Our space that we deserve that we haven't had for a long time.

But that also means honoring the masculine because that's just as much needed in this world.

And how can we balance each other and align with each other and really honor each other?

Amen.

That's just incredible.

Amen.

It's really neat just listening to both of you dialogue back and forth of that and recount the,

The experience of that conversation and just the learning that happened there between,

Between both of you.

And I think you're both highlighting this,

The incredible importance of,

Of seeking to understand and like how much you can build a bridge with that,

Even,

Even if there's not initially understanding,

Which there often isn't.

There often isn't.

That's why there,

There is the confusion,

The frustration,

The lashing out,

The acting that happens on both sides,

But the,

The amazing space you gave each other by deciding to,

That you had a desire to learn,

That you had a desire to grow,

To move past that and giving each other the platform and the space to speak because you did want to understand,

You did want to learn.

I think that,

That coupled with the,

The other important piece you'll keep bringing up,

Which is having accountability and ownership of yourself first,

Like caring about that relationship,

Making sure that you are showing up as you desire to be showing up and in areas that it's not,

You know,

Turning that mirror back on yourself and choosing to learn from,

From our relationships,

From how we,

How we show up.

I think when you can do that and then give the people in our lives,

The space to show up as themselves.

And when there is conflict,

Creating that space by seeking to understand,

Asking the questions and then being silent.

And I'm not,

I'm not sure,

Obviously,

Like,

Um,

From a feminine role of that side,

But I know that's incredibly hard for a lot of men and they don't show that,

That asking the question and then being silent and actually,

You know,

Seeking to learn.

I don't think we're good at it either for the rest of us.

Y'all have been role models for me.

I feel like that's where I've learned it is from the females in my life.

And I'm,

I'm very grateful for that.

Um,

But I think it's in a,

Those are two incredibly important pieces to growth,

To,

To bridging this gap,

To having conversations that aren't just uncomfortable and stay that way,

But start uncomfortable and then grow into an incredible relationship,

Credible understanding.

Um,

Because I mean,

Just out of what happened between y'all's relationship with each other,

It changes how you see other relationships.

It changes every other relationship in your life as well.

And I think that's such a incredible thing about community and the power we have to,

To grow in the ripple effect of seeking to learn,

Seeking to understand and not,

Not claiming that we already know.

I think that's where so much of the damage has been done,

Um,

On,

On all sides is thinking that we do understand this and I'm going to act this role out and just charge in and,

And be this thing.

And it's just,

Uh,

You know,

There's not space for community in that.

There's not space for the,

The dance,

The giving and taking them.

It's just,

I think is inherent to a healthy relationship.

So I really appreciate y'all,

Both of y'all's vulnerability and sharing that conversation,

The uncomfortability.

I can picture you sitting next to each other in the car while talking and the tension,

The silence,

The giving space.

And,

Uh,

I love it.

Uh,

This is,

I mean,

This is such an incredible topic.

I,

Uh,

I think we could go on for forever.

I would love to,

To have you back on it and talk about this more,

Uh,

In the coming months.

This is incredible.

Yeah.

So I'm thinking in wrapping it up,

I want to get one question.

He loves asking questions.

Great at it.

You're really,

Really good.

Let's go.

I'm thinking,

Joe,

If you have a really good one for it,

Feel free to throw it out.

But I'm thinking of one is this is organic.

We started doing this last time.

Go ahead,

Sir.

Okay.

Okay.

Let's see here.

Okay.

This is fun.

I just,

I love this part of the podcast.

What is coming?

Yeah.

Okay.

Ooh,

It's a two part question.

Okay.

Okay.

So first part,

If you were to tell me,

Rephrase that,

If you,

How would you state as simply as you can,

It's almost kind of a summary or a,

Or a re a reiteration perhaps of say,

There's a man out there who's like,

I'm,

I don't even,

I I'm interested.

I don't know what you're talking about or like,

Who just does not feel confident.

So as a woman talking to a man,

So this is the first part,

What would you tell the man from a woman's perspective of like,

Here's what healthy masculinity is.

And I hope you can embody this in this language that maybe hasn't been spoken before.

Cause I don't know a lot of people that talk like this,

Honestly,

Does that first part make sense?

Like what would you tell a young man or even any man who was like,

Ooh,

I want to get there.

How do I get there?

Or like,

What's the inside scoop from a woman of like something else?

I don't know,

Like behind the curtain of this is why this is so nourishing,

Or this is what I would love to see.

Like one big thing.

What would it be?

I was waiting for the second part.

Okay.

That'll come later.

So I,

I feel like before you,

We even go into healthy masculinity,

I would want that because you said he's not confident.

He's really insecure.

He's not really sure of himself.

I would want him to peel those layers of authenticity first.

I'd want him to first tune into who he is.

It's step by step.

So what do I need in this moment?

What do I need today?

How can I show it more authentically?

And I would personally want him to build that confidence first before maybe diving into the feminine masculine dynamics.

But to me,

So much of it is connecting to your heart.

Because I feel like when you connect to your heart,

Everything else will flow and be vulnerable and find a man that you trust.

Find a man who is different.

Find a man who will let you open up.

And for the healthy masculinity,

Was that in relation to the feminine or just healthy masculinity as a whole?

I think you answered it brilliantly.

I didn't have a parameter on it.

I just wanted that came up organically.

And that was brilliant.

Yeah.

Unless there's anything else you want to share.

That's perfect.

That felt good.

Yeah,

That felt wonderful.

Here's the next question.

Yeah,

I was like,

Brace myself for the second part.

Part two.

So your 16 year old self,

What do you know now?

What do you wish you would have known regarding healthy femininity as a 16 year old girl?

Maybe 18.

18 is a better number.

Let's go 18.

That's such a funny question for me,

Because I feel like everything on our path happens for a reason.

And I feel like I would not be the woman I am today had every single thing not happened.

But one thing that I wish,

Other than changing events or having some real talks with her and being like,

What the heck is your problem?

Knock it off.

I wish that I would have let myself feel.

I wish I would have let myself process everything I needed to process and not hold so much in my body for so many years.

Because for the longest time,

I thought something was wrong with me,

Because I was so tuned in.

I was so emotional.

I was so connected to just like this oneness and everything.

And I really just numbed the crap out of myself for so many years,

And my body suffered deeply because of it.

So I mean,

A big part of the feminine for me is feeling and flowing and being in my fullness and allowing all of it.

And I was in so many boxes.

And I wish I would have let myself out of that sooner.

But they all had purpose.

All the boxes that I had to burn down.

Just maybe give myself a lighter to start the burning,

At least.

Start it a little bit sooner.

That was brilliant.

Thank you.

That was an incredible answer.

Any thoughts,

Joe,

Before we wrap up?

No,

I just really appreciate this conversation.

Again,

I just thank you so much,

Melissa,

For being honest,

For showing up,

For being vulnerable.

And it's such an enlightening conversation.

And I just appreciate the willingness to jump into this and to learn and your openness.

And thank you so much for all of that.

Thank you both so much.

It's been an honor.

Thank you.

Thank you,

Melissa.

Thank you,

Joe.

Love you guys.

Reviews

Interesting and thought provoking conversation about feminity and masculinity- thank you so much for sharing this! I feel more understanding for myself and my relationship with men