Facing The Reflection In The Mirror - Duane Toops - Ep. 7

In this episode, I talk with Duane Toops about his practice and his experience on the path of Meditation. Duane talks about his journey from Vipassana and Mindfulness to Chan Buddhism. Central to this talk is the idea of facing ourselves in the mirror. Seeing clearly where we are and working with what we have. It's not always an easy experience, but ultimately it is the way forward to self-improvement and lasting change.

Transcript

Honest and open to all religions,

All traditions,

All ages,

And all levels of experience.

Radically accessible,

Pragmatic,

And eye-opening.

Simply for everyone.

Welcome to the Project Mindfulness podcast.

We'll take you on a journey across the globe and talk with other meditators about their practice,

The lessons they have learned,

And what they want the world to know.

In this episode,

I talk with Duane Toops.

What you will find essential in this talk is the struggles we sometimes encounter when practicing.

When the freshness of the experience of meditation fades away,

We come to understand it's not always easy.

When we turn our gaze inwards and look into the mirror,

We might not always enjoy what we see.

However,

It is important to understand that being honest with ourselves means creating the space to grow and cultivate awareness.

Duane talks from a point of experience,

And you will find his sharing both inspiring and reflective.

Welcome.

Oh,

Thank you so much.

I definitely count it as a privilege and an honor to be talking with you.

Tell us a bit about yourself.

Who are you and what do you do in life?

Right now,

I've been spending a lot of time building,

I suppose,

My YouTube channel.

So the idea for the YouTube channel kind of sprang from that as I began to try and delve more deeply into Buddhist practice and meditation.

And then Zen and trying to go back to early Chan.

I wanted to be able to document that process and document what it was like and what it is like to be learning out loud.

Right.

And to share that and hopefully,

You know,

Others can garner from it.

And if nothing else,

It's been very kind of cathartic for me to do that.

I don't have a lot of a lot of other people in my,

I guess,

Physical world that are that are on the path.

So that was kind of part of the motivation in starting the channel as well.

It was it was a desire to kind of talk about these ideas and kind of hash them out and didn't really have anyone specific to do that with or a specific community to do that with.

So it was an outlet to to try and do that.

That's awesome.

I think it's always interesting to see someone going through a journey.

Right.

It's so easy to sort of show when you actually went through the journey already at the end and you show like,

Yeah,

I went through this or I did that.

But the way you approach it is you're just going live through your journey of discovering what it means.

I think that's really cool.

How did you get into the whole the whole the whole thing?

Well,

I mean,

I think it's spread across,

You know,

Probably a good hunk of my my adult life,

Really.

I grew up in a very conservative Christian home.

My my dad was a pastor.

So,

You know,

Being in a very religious environment and upbringing was certainly nothing new.

That was very part and parcel of my life.

And,

You know,

That that type of Christianity certainly kind of formed the lens through which I saw the world for a long time.

But there was always kind of a tension in that.

I think I can say I don't think I could always put my finger on it.

And I think a lot of,

You know,

Christian doctrine and theology I accepted just as given because that was that was all I knew.

But I think I constantly found myself at odds with it.

And I think I've always been a very kind of curious person and always been very in love with with learning and learning as much as I can about a wide variety of subjects.

So I think just the process of examining myself and examining the religion that I was a part of and examining Christianity just over the years as I grew and aged and matured.

You know,

I finally came to a point to where,

You know,

I just couldn't align myself there anymore.

It didn't it didn't work for me for a while.

I don't think it was so much a crisis of faith as much as a crisis of structure.

But eventually that that crisis of faith came it came anyway.

And I think it was kind of during that period I was actually working on my my undergrad program.

I have a bachelor's in religion.

So that's that's something I've studied on on an academic level.

And that's probably where I where I first got a really good encounter with with Buddhism.

And even though I didn't dive into Buddhist practice at that point,

It certainly made a profound impression on me.

I remember kind of reading through kind of just the basic generalities,

Kind of the general Buddhist worldview.

And I couldn't help but think,

Like,

Wow,

This is how I already see the world.

This is how I already feel.

So it wasn't like somebody handed me something that I then tried to adapt myself to.

I think what struck me about it was like it already it felt like somebody had just verbalized what I was already feeling.

And that kind of struck with me.

But it took several years before I actually got into the practice.

I think,

You know,

After I finished my undergrad throughout the process,

I think I had started dabbling off and on with,

You know,

Just basic mindfulness meditation.

I think I had gotten into that shortly after.

Well,

I probably always had some kind of contemplative practice given,

You know,

The Christian background.

But it didn't become probably specifically meditative or more of that mindfulness based meditation until probably somewhere around the time.

I think I had read Sam Harris's book Waking Up.

Yeah.

And that definitely I really liked that because at that point I had kind of abandoned Christianity,

Abandoned theism,

Abandoned kind of all spirituality and kind of really didn't want anything to do with any of it.

But was still looking for something,

Still looking for something,

I guess some kind of practice,

Even though I didn't want to call it a spiritual practice.

I think I was still looking for something like that,

Something kind of centering maybe.

And I really liked Sam Harris's approach because,

You know,

It was completely secular.

There was nothing to believe,

No groups to join,

No doctrines or creeds to assent to.

And started dabbling at that point and did that off and on for probably a couple of years.

And it waxed and waned.

And then for one reason or another,

I decided to get more devoted to the practice.

I felt like I needed that.

And so the more I delved into it to just try to understand the practice better,

The more it just felt like home and the more it got to the place to where,

You know,

I,

Whether I really wanted to join something or not,

I found myself to the point where I basically had,

I just didn't want to admit it verbally.

So and through that process,

You know,

I kind of stumbled into Zen and Chan.

That's awesome.

What I wonder is you said that you started off with mindfulness meditation,

And now that you sort of say aligned with the teachings of Chan or Zen,

Did your practice change?

Was there a certain change in that?

Or did you notice how your practice developed?

I think so.

I think it did because I think when you start getting into,

I guess,

The philosophical side,

You know,

Your knowledge base changes,

And it obviously changes your perspective and your view.

And so anytime you do anything that that brings about a perspectival shift,

It's going to,

You know,

By consequence,

Bring about a practice shift.

And so I think it did.

I think the intention changed,

You know,

Before when it was,

I think,

Just kind of basic vipassana or just mindfulness,

Because at that time,

I don't even think I really knew enough to understand what vipassana was.

But it was just basic kind of like,

Hey,

I have a tendency to be a very kind of anxious,

Introverted,

Kind of overly analytical,

Kind of overly worrisome type of person.

I'm not the most optimistic guy out there.

And so I think it started out more as kind of,

You know,

Stress relief or just trying to kind of get,

You know,

I'd gone through some pretty drastic life changes that weren't exactly looked for or welcomed.

And so I kind of felt like I was kind of spiraling.

And so I was looking for something to kind of provide some kind of anchor or grounding.

And so that's basically all I was looking for at that point.

I suffer from,

I guess you'd say,

Kind of little bouts with depression.

And so I was at a point where that was kind of severe.

And so I was just kind of looking for a way to deal with that.

And so,

But,

And that was certainly there.

But I think as I've gotten deeper into the teachings,

Yeah,

The perspective has shift and I guess the intention has shift.

And I'm not sure I can quite articulate what the intention now is,

But I think it's just trying to orient my practice in kind of alignment with these teachings and just trying to,

I guess,

Genuinely see what's really present and see reality as it actually is just trying to kind of pierce the veil of,

You know,

Delusion as mystical as that sounds.

Right.

But I think that's been kind of the shift for me.

And I certainly can tell the difference in my practice.

I think I've begun to really see just how attached I am to so many ideas of even just what like practice should be or what the results of practice should be or how I should feel while I'm meditating or how should I feel after meditating.

It's like peeling off the layers.

Exactly.

And I think for me,

I won't try to speak for everyone,

But for me,

It's not always been a particularly enjoyable experience.

So I think that's where kind of my practice is at the moment where I can say,

Hey,

It's not at the most pleasant of places because I think right now what's becoming the clearest to me is that kind of greediness and that kind of attachment to,

You know,

I should be more like this personality wise or behavior wise because I practice and because I,

You know,

You know,

Subscribe to these these teachings,

I shouldn't be such of a jerk.

Right.

You're looking into a mirror that probably you would never look in if you would just continue your life and not practice.

And through practice,

You basically face this.

Well,

I mean,

For me,

It was definitely a monster that I faced in the beginning and slowly turned into a,

Well,

Whatever it is,

But less of a monster,

Maybe,

Or maybe just a different perspective on the whole thing.

And that's super confrontational and super,

Super heavy to deal with.

But in the end,

It pays off a lot.

I imagine the people around you,

As you mentioned your wife,

For instance,

She probably noticed the difference,

Even though maybe you don't always see that.

Is that correct?

Or is that?

I think so.

I think so.

I mean,

There have been,

I think,

You know,

You,

You wear these particular ruts out so much from,

You know,

Being just a certain way for so long that it,

You know,

It is really difficult to change old patterns of behavior,

Not impossible,

But difficult.

So I don't want to paint a picture that practice has just been some kind of panacea to where now I'm never anxious or now I never worry or now I never lose my temper or anything like that.

I have certainly not to hit that point,

But I think I do think my wife has pointed out to me like,

Hey,

You're not nearly as bad.

It doesn't happen nearly as often.

Or it's not as,

I guess,

Powerful as it once was.

And,

And yeah,

I think it's easier for her to notice than me.

And I think that might be at least maybe I'm trying to put a positive spin on it,

But I think it might be maybe because I'm just noticing that behavior in myself so much more clearly now.

So maybe it's like I'm not quite at the point to where I've corrected it or fixed it,

Or maybe I don't have enough power yet to stop it,

But I definitely have,

I think,

More awareness to see it so much more clearly.

And so maybe it seems worse than what it is just because,

You know,

Before,

You know,

I knew I was a worrier.

I knew I had a little bit of a temper.

But sometimes you just you don't you don't notice how prevalent it is in your personality.

And I feel like right now I'm at the place where I just see it so much that sometimes I almost question like,

Is this even working?

Yeah,

Right.

I mean,

It's what I really resonate with is that real change,

Like real lasting change happens slowly.

I always ask the question,

What would you give an advice or what would you recommend to anyone listening from where you are right now on on on a journey of meditation and mindfulness?

Like,

What would you advise anyone listening?

I think the only advice I can give is that no advice is going to be perfect.

And no advice is going to be complete or helpful,

I think because at the end of the day,

You just have to you just you just have to practice.

Right.

And take it as it comes.

I think if I could say anything as simple as it would be,

It'd just be like,

Keep doing it,

Keep keep going and and try your best to not get caught up in whatever comes up.

Either way,

I think that's the thing that I've been trying to work on the most,

Because either way,

It's so easy to to get caught up in in what's present.

I mean,

It's one thing to to be present and to try to be aware of everything that's within this moment.

And but it's also easy to slip into being caught up in it.

I think the goal if we can use that term loosely,

Is to is to be completely aware of everything that's going on in any given moment.

And to see it all for what it is,

And to not be swayed by it.

Right.

Because I think those are two almost two separate practices.

I mean,

They go hand in hand,

But I think they don't one doesn't always necessarily imply the other.

Getting caught in getting caught up in in what's going on or what's in the present moment doesn't mean you're aware of it and being aware of it doesn't mean you won't get caught up in it.

Right.

And so I guess what I'm trying to say there is,

Hey,

Just as you practice,

Just just practice.

If you have a what we would call,

For lack of a better term,

A good sit,

Don't don't sing your praises and don't get caught up in how good that meditation session was and vice versa.

If you have a bad sit,

Don't get caught up in that.

I've seen people ask like,

Hey,

What do I do when when I have a bad sitting and it's like I have to just kind of almost that becomes a mantra like there's no such thing as a bad sitting and on the same token,

There's no such thing as a good sitting if you were complete,

You know,

I found myself really distracted today,

Then that's just how it was today.

That was the practice.

You saw that you were distracted today.

That was your meditation today.

Or I was so centered and aware then hey,

Don't get caught up in that either.

That was just how today's practice was.

That's just how this was.

That's just how it is right now.

And that's all it is.

Thank you.

Thanks a lot,

Man.

Thanks for joining.

Oh,

Thank you so much for having me here.

I like I said,

I think this is a very kind of humbling experience,

But but one that I'm was excited for.

If you'd like to follow the journey of Duane tubes,

Make sure to check out the link in the podcast description.

Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast if you enjoyed this talk.

And thank you for listening and have a great day.

Reviews

Very interesting chat. Thank you 💜 x

Very refreshing to hear there’s no perfect meditation and that it is an ongoing practice. Thank you for sharing