Transforming The School System With Mindfulness

Listen to this inspiring episode on how mindfulness can help young people flourish in life and in the school system. Listen to three incredible men, from Holistic Life Foundation, Ali Smith, Atman Smith and Andres Gonzales, share their 20-year journey of teaching mindfulness in schools and the impact their work has had in helping children become more peaceful, compassionate, loving, healthy and balanced. Their work has been featured in CNN, Oprah Magazine, Good Morning America, and so much more.

Transcript

On today's podcast,

We'll be talking about the power of mindfulness to help young children flourish and become their best selves.

I'm speaking to Ali Smith,

Atman Smith and Andres Gonzalez.

They have been teaching a social emotional curriculum for over 20 years in Baltimore and now across America,

And they have helped over 200,

000 children with their work.

Their work with their Holistic Life Foundation has been featured on Making a Difference on the NBC Nightly News,

CNN and CBS,

As well as,

Oh,

The Oprah magazine,

The Washington Post,

Upworthy,

Mindful magazine,

Yoga Journal,

Shambhala Sun and many,

Many more places.

Their book,

Let Your Light Shine,

How mindfulness can empower children and rebuild communities has also been featured on Good Morning America.

Please join me in welcoming them to the show.

Hello.

Hey,

How are you?

I'm good.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you so much.

I think that the work that you're doing is so impactful,

Especially for the future of education.

And can you tell the audience a little bit about how you actually got started on this work?

I guess the start came from.

And we got it,

My brother and I got introduced to meditation as young kids from our dad,

He was into transcendental meditation,

So he would get us up in the morning and we would meditate before morning cartoons and,

You know,

Meditation,

Woody Woodpecker,

Scooby Doo.

Well,

Actually,

Scooby Doo,

Then Woody Woodpecker off the school.

And a self-realization fellowship church based on Kriya Yoga.

My dad,

Our dad got into the practice from our godfather.

One of those people that got into yoga in the 60s and never,

Ever got out of it.

As we got older.

I guess around the time I was in fourth grade,

I was in second grade,

Our parents got divorced and we lost our meditation practice.

But as we got older and,

You know,

Like life happened,

We were finishing up college.

We were looking for something to do.

We met Andy at the University of Maryland,

College Park.

And the three of us were like pondering how we're going to spend the rest of our lives.

And I'd say two important things happened.

One,

Our dad sat us down and told us not to go get jobs and to start a business.

He was all about entrepreneurship and not,

You know,

I mean,

It's like three people of color getting caught up in the world of the corporate world where you hit that glass ceiling when you look a certain way and you can't advance beyond that.

Then he also had a lot of friends that were getting fired,

Losing their pensions and getting downsized after decades of like faithful work to certain companies that they were working for.

So that happened.

And then we got back into yoga,

Talked to our godfather.

He was always trying to get us back into it.

But we kind of dove deeply into the practice and the combination of of that yoga practice from Uncle Will,

Our godfather,

The entrepreneurship push of our dad.

And then the three of our desire to help humanity and the planet to seem like there was a lot of suffering going on and a lot of pain and a lot of people taking advantage of other people in the environment.

It's like,

Oh,

That was like that perfect storm.

And then like the stars aligned and the Holistic Life Foundation was born.

Oh,

Amazing.

Sounds like your dad was a visionary,

Because when you look at the world of work right now,

There's so much going on.

I think that from a larger perspective,

Larger consciousness,

We really are shifting how we do work.

But I think what's what an amazing vision.

Go ahead.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

When you were talking about entrepreneurship and our dad,

Like all of his friends thought he was crazy for telling us not to go get jobs because it was like,

You know,

It's like they were like,

He paid for private school.

Oh,

The boys are in college.

They both have degrees.

You told them not to go get jobs like he's like,

No,

No.

And,

You know,

He was like he was like,

No,

I see down the line.

Like this is going to be what's going to serve them.

And then probably like 15 years into it,

Like all of his friends were like,

Yeah,

We probably should have told our kids not to go get jobs either.

I mean,

Because it was a struggle at first.

And they were like,

You know,

Like,

See,

We told you they should go get jobs because he was supporting us financially,

Like our bills and the organization early on.

But then once we figured it out and things started to grow,

Like all of his friends wish they had done that with their kids as well.

And his friends not only didn't become,

Went from doubters to supporters,

But they actually started supporting us financially as well too.

And now whenever we have a fundraiser,

They come and support and tell us how proud they are.

So it was a huge shift,

But it took a really long time.

And honestly,

You know,

Our dad,

He was a stubborn dude.

So,

You know,

He didn't once ever fail at anything.

And I think we were one of the things that he didn't want to fail at.

And,

You know,

He supported us.

Like I always say for like eight years.

And then,

You know,

That's when,

You know,

We finally got,

You know,

National recognition with the yoga study,

The first yoga mindfulness study on the effectiveness of it on urban youth through Johns Hopkins and Penn State.

And then after that,

It was like a snowball effect of support financially from foundations and from media outlets,

You know,

And then after the media outlets and the study,

All his friends were like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Man,

He was on to something,

You know what I mean?

So,

Yeah.

But we definitely humbled and appreciate the support that,

You know,

Three pillars gave us.

It was him,

Our godfather and,

You know,

Our mom,

She made sure we ate,

Like she would drop off packages of food because like,

We didn't have two pennies to rub together for the first eight years.

So,

You know,

You know,

Through the combination of that tripod,

It helped support our tripod.

That's,

That's so powerful.

Cause I was,

As you both were talking,

I was thinking 20 years ago,

Mindfulness and yoga,

Especially within the school systems and so on,

It wasn't as popular as it is now.

It wasn't so,

You know,

Embedded within,

You know,

You had Jon Kabat-Zatt and all these other people that kind of made it more popular.

How was it in the beginning received when you were,

When you were talking about mindfulness and yoga,

Especially as a form of really addressing some of America's biggest issues like poverty and,

And violence?

I mean,

Like you said,

It wasn't very common,

At least not,

Not as much as it is now.

You know,

You hear mindfulness everywhere.

You see yoga and media and all over TV shows and movies.

I remember when we were first working with the kids and we would even say the word yoga,

They'd look at us like yogurt,

Yoga,

You know,

Like they didn't work.

Yeah.

Right.

The word wasn't familiar to them.

It wasn't like it was now.

So I think initially it was received with skepticism from a lot of the kids and a lot of the programs that we did speak because it wasn't as popular as it was today.

But I think that we all saw the transformation that occurred within us with our practice.

And we embodied the practice of something that our teacher really,

Really emphasized.

You know,

You had to be authentic.

You had to actually be a scientist,

Do the techniques,

Do the practices on yourself,

See what the results were.

We saw what they were.

We saw,

You know,

What did,

What good it could do,

Not only for us,

But our community and for mankind in general.

And I think that us going into these communities and these programs that we had and just being the practice,

You know,

When we say,

Yo,

Isn't something you do,

It's something you are.

And I think that was something that was evident in the three of us in our practice so that we've resonated that energy.

So,

You know,

The kids may not have been down to do it or been skeptical,

But I thought,

This is lame,

Whatever.

I don't want to do this,

But we were pretty cool guys.

And they saw that we were like,

Man,

We need to try to do this.

And usually,

You know,

For all the listeners,

I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that once you try it,

You know,

Once you do this,

The experiment on yourself,

Once you take some breaths,

Or you start incorporating some movement or some meditation into your life,

It can almost be instantaneous that you see and feel those benefits.

And,

You know,

You become more present in the moment instead of being in the past or the future,

You start to learn to love your real self more,

Which in turn allows you to love others.

And that love and that compassion,

That Ali was talking about that we saw that was missing in the world,

It grows.

And I think it's something that we saw when we were working with our first group of kids and throughout all these 27 years now is,

You know,

You just really were just kind of planting the seed and reminding people of these techniques and practices and this ability within themselves,

You know,

To let their light shine,

Like that book says.

And I think that we just wanted to be the conduit,

Right.

To keep passing on these practices and these techniques to help out as many people help themselves.

You know,

People oftentimes say,

That we save people's lives or we help,

You know,

We don't do any of that stuff.

We're just reminding people and they're the ones that are taking control of their own lives and learning how to self-regulate and how to be more present.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that.

First,

I just want to say thank you for planting seeds,

Because I think all of the people who planted those seeds way,

Way back,

We're helping humanity.

We're helping us get to this point.

So it must've been difficult to go eight years without seeing the fruits of your labor.

But so thank you for holding on to that stubbornness and the vision.

You mentioned some of the outcomes that you yourself experienced.

You mentioned a few,

Can you share a little bit more in terms of how it changed your life by implementing this mindfulness in yoga,

Especially since it seemed,

And I could be wrong that you grew up in a neighborhood that was more like violent and more poverty stricken.

Is that accurate?

It is.

I mean,

Honestly,

When we graduated from school,

We moved back to the neighborhood that Ali and I grew up in.

And,

You know,

It was,

You know,

I remember one weekend,

Three people got murdered within our two block radius,

You know,

The open air drug market,

Dilapidated housing.

They call our neighborhood like the blue light district because there's like surveillance cameras,

Like on every other corner with like blue lights,

Like the police siren or police lights.

Yeah.

You know,

It,

Yeah.

It's very depressing neighborhood and a very scary for some folks,

But you know,

In the midst of all that stuff,

We were blissing out.

And it was because of the practice.

You know,

A lot of our friends used to come to our neighborhood and ask us like,

Yo,

Like y'all are broke.

Y'all don't have no car.

Y'all live in one of the worst,

Most dangerous neighborhoods in America and like y'all happy.

Why the hell are y'all happy?

And we would return the question and be like,

Well,

You know,

Y'all have great jobs.

Y'all married,

Y'all live in great neighborhoods.

Y'all have nice cars and you're miserable.

You know what I mean?

So it must be something to what we're doing.

And honestly,

We realized from that point on that we needed to share this with other people,

Along with the fact that,

You know,

When Ali,

Andy and I like big star Wars and like Marvel comic book,

You know,

Heads and,

You know,

We were always trying to figure out,

You know,

Like,

Man,

We want to be super pack superheroes so we can,

You know,

Save the world.

And you know,

During that time,

That was like,

You know,

When we were in our last year of school,

We were also searching for like,

What is the point of life?

Why are we here?

It has to be more like Ali usually says,

Like it has to be more than just graduating,

Getting a job,

Uh,

Getting married,

Having some kids,

Retiring and dying.

It has to be more to it.

So we have read a lot of books and you know,

Whether it's,

You know,

Philosophy,

Creational theories,

Ancient history,

Astronomy,

Astrology.

And,

You know,

We were,

We're looking for what the purpose of,

Of our existence.

And,

You know,

The more we read,

The more questions we had.

And they would always say,

The answers are within the answers that within we looked at each other like,

Man,

How the hell do you go within?

And during that time,

Our teacher who was me and Ali's godfather,

You know,

He had been trying to get us into yoga for the longest time.

And,

You know,

We just thought he was crazy.

Like we would be sitting around his island in his kitchen and we would,

You know,

Be drinking a Heineken or something and,

You know,

Watching basketball and,

You know,

In the midst of us watching basketball and enjoying ourselves here,

Like he,

He'd like point to the Heineken and be like,

You know,

You're putting toxins in your body.

You need to learn how to get them out and start doing a yoga breath called Kapala body where,

You know,

It's,

They call it the breath of fire where you're exhaling three breaths per second.

And that like detoxifies your body.

And at that time,

You know,

We would look at each other like,

Man,

This dude is crazy and get up and leave.

But,

You know,

I think that once we saw,

Once we were looking for a teacher and looking for the answers that are within,

You know,

We realized how much of a gym he was.

And we actually saw like a yoga manual that taught you a lot of like meditations where,

You know,

You could like,

You know,

It was esoteric stuff,

Like maintain your body without eating.

What meditation can you do if there isn't a hospital and,

You know,

Other stuff like that.

And we're like,

Yo,

Yo can make you become like a superhero.

And he was like,

Well,

You know,

That's part of it.

That's a distraction.

But honestly what it is is to unite your individual self with your universal self.

And,

You know,

The other stuff are just byproducts.

And all of us were like,

Yo,

Can you teach us?

And you know,

What he said is that,

You know,

You gotta make me two promises.

You have to wake up at 4.

30 in the morning,

An hour,

Half before sunrise to practice with me.

And the second thing is you got to promise to be teachers.

And honestly,

That's the reason,

Another reason why,

Besides,

You know,

Seeing people suffering is we made a promise to our teacher that he,

You know,

He said he would teach us any and everything if we decided to be teachers.

And the first population that we taught were the people in our community,

Because there was so much suffering,

So much undiagnosed trauma.

And,

You know,

Like Andy said,

Like we always say is that,

You know,

The best thing to do is not have people dependent on you.

Our teacher was like,

Man,

I don't want no devotees.

I want to create teachers.

That's what we did is we wanted to create teachers.

So we empower people with the practice of how to be the practice,

What the benefits are and how to practically apply it into your life.

And,

You know,

It started off in our hood,

But then it's expanded,

Like you said,

Around the nation and around the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

You said so many amazing things.

I just want to highlight a few number one being that it's happiness,

Joy,

Bliss.

It's an inside job.

You guys can show the way in you're the light keepers,

But people have to be willing to be able to do that work.

And I think that's what people sometimes struggle with.

Like sometimes we want to be saved,

But the truth of matter is we're only going to save ourselves.

And so you demonstrate that beautifully in saying you can be in a quote unquote terrible environment and still be blissing out,

Or you can be in a yacht,

You know,

In Capri and have all the money in the world and still be miserable because wherever you go,

There you are.

Right.

So I think that's really important.

I wanted to mention I'm so into esoteric and as far as our mind and our thoughts can,

Can take us.

So if you're interested in more supernatural stuff,

Lee Holden,

Who is my Qigong teacher has done a little documentary on like,

Like being able to,

To,

You know,

To see beyond it's really quite a cool,

It's called supernatural or something.

And Dr.

Joe Dispenza also does that stuff.

I just thought it would be interesting in terms of like seeing what,

How far we can go in terms of bending reality and so on.

But I want to go back to your comment about the impact,

Because as I was thinking about your work,

I was thinking,

You know,

I have young children.

I've been trying,

I like my husband and I've been teaching them to love themselves and to,

And to practice.

They're just not into meditation.

So how do you engage young people in a way that gets them to move away from that resistance and not distract ability,

Especially now with electronics to want to embrace the kind of work that you do?

So I think it's,

It's,

It's different teaching your own kids versus teaching other people's kids.

And so I know when my boys were,

When my oldest son was born,

We had been teaching kids for probably a little over a decade,

No,

2006.

We probably teaching kids for about five years.

Uh,

By the time I,

My oldest son was born,

People were asking me like,

Well,

How are you going to teach him?

Like when are you going to show him yoga and show him how to meditate and all these things.

And it,

It wasn't really that,

It was just me practicing around him and waiting for him to ask the right questions to decide that he wanted to take that journey with the practice.

So I would be sitting on my mat doing the breath of fire,

Doing side Kriya.

And he would just come and sit on my lap and stare at me,

Or he was meditating.

We kind of sit down next to me on the,

On the couch or whatever.

So it was just like he was around and he was asking those questions.

So I think when you're dealing with your own kids,

You have to make it something where you wait for them to be ready for it and not use it as a punishment,

Make it fun and mold the practice,

Not around what your practice is,

But mold it around,

Around what's going to benefit them and what they're interested in.

Uh,

When we're in schools,

It's a little,

I mean,

It's,

It's a little easier because,

You know,

We show up in a school.

We're not their teacher.

We're not their parents.

Like we're the fun guys from the outside that are coming in to show them something new.

And it's a,

It's a lot of the same things,

Make it fun,

Make it engaging,

Show them how it's going to help with their struggles and meet them where they are.

A lot of kids,

Most,

I feel like a lot of people that want to teach mindfulness in schools or yoga for that matter,

They'll go in and they'll go in with an idea of exactly what they want to teach or they're teaching from a curriculum or they have,

Like they walk in with their class structure.

But if you walk in there,

You're not going to give the kids what they need.

If you walk in with that mentality,

Um,

We always say you got to be ready to throw it all out the window and listen to the kids because kids will tell you what they need.

Like,

If you listen to them with your ear,

With your heart and energetically,

They'll tell you exactly what they need.

And you can give them that.

That's what,

Why,

When we train our teachers at the Holistic Life Foundation,

We don't use curriculum.

We don't use things along those lines.

We give them a toolbox where they can go in and just teach them how to really be present and listen.

And a part of that is coming from having your own personal practice.

Like when you have your own personal practice and you can feel and experience that stillness and that peace and that inner love and that interconnection,

Like it starts there.

And like you said,

It vibrates out and then you can start to feel it from the people around you.

But you can also feel when those people around you are suffering.

And if you listen to them,

You'll know what,

You'll know what to present them with so that they can practice to heal themselves up.

So I think it's,

It's,

It's similar,

But it's just a little,

It's more,

It's definitely more difficult teaching your own kids than it is teaching other people's kids.

Just to add a little something else,

You know,

As far as meditation,

A lot of people just try to like jump straight into the meditation when they try to teach people or teach kids.

And,

You know,

Sometimes that can be more harm than good,

That style of meditation that you teach.

Cause you know,

When kids are just sitting in silence,

They get lost in their own thoughts,

Traumas can pop up and you know,

All that type of stuff.

So,

You know,

What we do is we kind of have a skeleton when we teach practices in general,

Contemplative practices,

We always do something physical to kind of get rid of that restless energy and then make their body a safe space.

Then we do some breathing practices to kind of still their mind and then they'll be ready for meditation.

But we don't,

You know,

We have more of a guided meditation where we're kind of leading them to a specific path instead of the silence that will let their mind wander.

So,

You know,

Until like Ali was saying,

Until they actually,

You know,

Develop their own practice,

It's really good to kind of have that blueprint of physical practice,

Breathing,

And then meditation,

Guided meditation.

And then once they kind of have that adapted,

Then you can kind of let them do their own thing.

And,

You know,

Through repetition,

Even if there is silence,

They'll hear you in their mind leading them through the practices.

So they'll still have a kind of guided meditation,

You know,

While there is silence.

So,

You know,

That's pretty much besides what Ali was saying.

And that's kind of how we approach it.

Yeah.

And if you think about it,

What Atmos talk about is a very trauma informed way of presenting the work.

But I mean,

The eight limbs are already trauma informed if you follow them.

I mean,

Like that's the way that yoga is set up.

Like you talk about the embodiment with the yamas and the niyamas,

Like what are you doing in your life to abide the practice?

You do the movement to make the body a safe space,

To do the breath work to slow the mind down,

And then you jump into your meditation.

So it's a science for a reason.

It's,

It's sustained for thousands of years for a reason,

Because it works if you teach it the right way.

I think people try to like pick pieces out of it or teach it in a way,

Again,

Back to the curriculum thing.

They try to go like,

Well,

This is going to be day one and this is going to be day two.

And this is going to be day three.

And we have to do this type of yoga.

I mean,

But like,

You know,

The way it was originally set up,

It works.

It's got to be adapted for modern times a little bit in its presentation,

But the way that it's structured,

It works if you do it that way.

Yeah.

Pat and Jali was on to something.

Yeah.

Andres,

Do you have any thoughts?

No,

They covered it pretty good.

Okay,

Cool.

Yeah.

So what you were both talking about is I think what Andres mentioned earlier,

Which is that embodiment,

Right?

When you're embodying that,

You can get a sense of what people need in the moment and give them what they need rather than what you come with in terms of your framework.

And so I think that's really important.

I also wanted to mention,

Ali,

You're a better parent than I,

Than me,

Because I kind of had to learn that later on.

I learned about self-compassion and self-love and meditation and Qigong and movement,

All that stuff later on.

And so I kind of had to learn what you just mentioned,

Which is allowing the kids to have their own journey and allowing them to be curious.

And if that's not their journey,

Then that's not their journey.

And so that's,

I think that's,

That's a beautiful way to put it and to be open to sharing what they're interested in.

I found with my kids in particular,

Like they kind of want to explore their own things,

Which I,

For me,

It means they're safely secure because they're like,

Eh,

I don't want to do that.

I want to do something else.

And it's like,

Awesome.

Wonderful.

Can you tell me a little bit more about some of the,

Some of how this program is embedded within schools?

You mentioned you kind of come in and do kind of like a pop in.

And the reason why I asked this question is because I've had experiences where you drop in and you do something and then you leave,

But how can we weave this as part of the natural school system and,

Or in different environments in a way that would make it sustainable?

One of the worries that I always have is sometimes when you have these programs in there,

The budgeting,

The budgets get cut.

Like these are the first programs that go.

So how do you weave it into the system so that even if you are cut,

It's still kind of within the culture so much so that it could continue.

We have a wide variety of programming,

Right?

And I would say one of the main ways we weave it in is the way that we lead the practices.

So similar to how our teachers at DUST,

Hey,

I'm not teaching students,

I'm teaching teachers.

We do that.

We use a reciprocal teaching model.

So when we go into the schools and we do these programmings,

Whether it's the full school wide initiative,

Whether it's little pops in,

Pop ins,

Whether it's residencies,

That we're always teaching the kids to be teachers.

So I remember when we used to have our after school program,

There would be 90 kids in the gym,

The three of us,

And it wasn't us leading the practices.

It'd be a little kindergartner in the front leading through some salutations or doing the asanas for everybody.

It's to make them embody the practice and empowers them too.

So now they are these leaders and they go out in their communities and they make friends and they change stuff.

And similar in the schools,

You know,

You start finding that the kids,

Once they start seeing the true benefits of these practices,

That they'll raise their hand and say,

Hey,

Teacher,

We're about to take a quiz.

Can I lead everybody to the stress breath?

And they're the ones leading.

So even if we step away,

Sorry,

The puppy's going.

If we step away,

Then they're still running the programs.

They're the ones that can facilitate the practices because it's really not that hard once they learn how to do it.

And it's like you said,

I think you had it right on the nose,

The culture or the school or whatever facility starts transforming and changing.

And this becomes common to see the kids doing some breath work or meditating to learn how to self regulate and using these practices.

So we're really,

We don't want people to rely on us.

We want to come in,

Guide and lead as we can.

But when we step back,

It's kind of a machine itself and it's rolling and it just becomes part of our daily routine.

Like,

Hey,

At this school now we breathe or we meditate.

And I think that's what really allows it to stay sustainable and make an impact not only inside the school,

But in the surrounding community as well.

Cause then the kids go home and they'll see mom,

They'll be like,

Mom,

You look stressed out.

Sit down.

I'm going to give you some breaths and then it just transforms the entire area.

And I think one thing we're good at is training the trainer programs.

Like there are those people who are in school buildings who are,

Who are adults that are,

That connect to the kids very,

Very well.

They're good at diffusing situations.

They're good at connecting with the kids and get them to kind of feel safe enough to share.

We're good at going into the building and adding mindfulness and yoga and breath work and meditation to their skillset so they can make a bigger impact in the school.

So even if the budget does get cut,

Like they're already in the building.

So there might,

You might find those mindfulness champions that are,

That will actually be training to become mindfulness champions in the building.

So that like,

You know,

They can,

They can still do all they're doing,

But they're also empowering the kids with practices to help them with mental health issues,

To help them heal from trauma,

To deal with anxiety,

To deal with that lack of connection,

All those things that kids are suffering from these days.

And it's become one of our major ways of helping people around the country because,

You know,

It's kind of unfair for us to go into a school and we go there for a week and like,

You know,

We make the practices really fun.

We've been teaching them for a long time and everyone's all excited about mindfulness.

And then we go away and they're like,

What the hell do we do now?

Like,

This is like,

What are we supposed to do?

So I think we want to make it sustainable.

We want to make it stick.

We want to make it effective when we're,

When we're gone.

So I feel like our train the trainer is,

Is probably the most impactful thing that we can do to help people outside of direct service,

But outside of Baltimore.

And when we're going in other places,

It's that train a trainer where we can find those people and train them up to just enhance what they're already bringing to the school community.

Wow.

That is so important because what you're talking about is that kind of bottom-up approach and sort of middle-up approach as well.

Do the leaders ever take any of your programs?

Cause I definitely,

As a leader,

I would see that as something that I would want to take too.

Cause I mean,

I know people that are vice principals and so on and they get very stressed out.

So to be able to breathe before you're managing something difficult would be great.

So we made the mistake for you for over a decade of going into a school and only working with the students there.

And that doesn't work because the teachers are more stressed out than the students in a lot of cases,

Because they're dealing with their own life stress and they're dealing with the secondary trauma and the burnout they're dealing with from working with the kids.

So we didn't start working with teachers for a while.

And it wasn't until we started our mindful moment program that we started working with the principals.

And we realized that that's where we had to start every single time.

You got to start with leadership because it all trickles down,

Whether it's that stress domino of like starting with the principals and going to the teachers,

To the students,

Students bringing home to the parents.

So like it's coming from everywhere.

So we know that we won't walk into a building if we can't work for it with everyone in the building.

And you know,

We,

We do,

We've done leadership outside of schools as well.

City council president Zeke Cohen here in Baltimore started this healing cities act where he's trying to make Baltimore,

Well he's kind of made Baltimore a trauma informed city.

Nice.

Oh,

It was,

We did trainings for around like trauma informed yoga mindfulness for the mayor,

For the city council,

For the heads of all the city agencies.

We've done deep dives with parks and recs with the libraries,

With the state's attorney's office,

With the housing authority.

And next we're going to work with all the firefighters in the city.

So like,

You know,

Like there's,

There's a space for it in the community outside of schools because adults are suffering too,

Not just the kids,

But it's got to start with that leadership every single time.

And if you can get a leader that's brought in and then like totally sold on the program,

The program's not going to go anywhere.

It's always going to be there and it's always going to sustain and keep growing.

And I love that you're also creating leaders within the school as well.

So even if that leader changes,

You've got kids that can really step up into the leadership.

And so you are shaping the future,

Which is amazing.

I wanted to ask about,

You know,

In the information that was shared with me,

You talk about that your program has,

I mean,

So many amazing outcomes in terms of,

You know,

Like anxiety and stress and self-esteem.

One of the things that stuck out to me in particular was about self-care and self-love.

Can you tell me a little bit about how they differ and about how you're working with that?

Yeah,

I can chime in.

So I think one thing we noticed a lot,

You know,

When we were working with the kids initially,

You can see how we're giving them these practices.

Like you said,

Everyone's really focusing on how the kids can,

You know,

How it's going to impact them in school.

So can they focus better,

Concentrating more,

Removing ruminating thoughts to be present.

There's,

You know,

Dealing with conflict in a more peaceful manner.

So these conflict resolution skills and,

You know,

That's like the focus on everyone.

Like how can we get the kids to do better with these programs in terms of school,

Education,

Academics.

And it was funny.

We would see the main thing that was really happening was they're learning to love themselves.

And that is what the real transformation,

Where the real transformation occurred because they learned to love themselves.

And now they're looking at themselves differently.

They're,

They don't see themselves separate from everyone else.

They start to feel more interconnected with all their peers.

And they're not just part of the West side of Baltimore or the city of Baltimore or the state of Maryland or the United States,

But they're part of everyone and everything.

And I think that when they started learning to love themselves,

It allowed them to see other people and being more empathetic and compassionate to others.

And they learned to love others more.

And they started seeing,

Well,

You know,

Someone,

Johnny's going through something today and empathize with them more because they're like,

I know sometimes I go through that too.

And I think that self love is really,

Really important for everyone in the world.

But in particular,

They love themselves and they start seeing themselves in everyone,

Every other thing.

And it's like,

Why would I treat anyone or anything negatively or,

You know,

With hatred when they're just another version of me?

And they start loving everyone and everything.

And that's why I think everything starts to gel.

I think you need to learn to love yourself first,

Right?

That self love before you can take care of yourself,

Right?

Because if you don't know who you really are and you're not loving yourself,

Then you can't really take care of yourself.

I think then we,

With the practices they start and some of the concepts that we discuss when they start learning about,

You know,

Taking care of themselves,

You know,

That's not selfish,

Right?

You know,

One phrase that we use a lot is that,

You know,

People oftentimes are giving from their well,

Right.

But they give from their well until it's empty.

And that's not what we should be doing as human beings.

We need to take care of ourselves,

Do those things that make,

I don't know,

It's like makes our hearts or souls smile,

You know,

The things that we really love to do and take care of ourselves first so that our cup is overflowing.

And that's what you get from is the overflow.

So then you're always functioning at a hundred percent,

If not more than a hundred percent.

Right.

But most of the time people want to just give and give and give.

And they,

You know,

They'll set themselves on fire to keep other people warm.

And that's not a way to live or to function.

And I think with these practices,

As they start to learn how to love themselves,

Part of that is the understanding,

Hey,

I need to take care of myself as well.

And if not,

Then I'm just giving from a half empty cup and no one wants to do that.

You're not really giving fully.

So I think,

I hope that answered your question a little in terms of the difference.

It absolutely did.

Yeah.

And it,

It reminds me about the whole,

You know,

Airplane thing.

You got to put your own oxygen mask on first before you can help others.

Otherwise you're no good to anyone.

And I'm also very appreciative because I saw the whole concept of self-love on the outcomes that you list.

And I think that is so important,

Especially for men,

Especially young men.

Cause I think,

And this is just my perspective,

I could be wrong.

I think we really do a disservice for young men in particular.

I think that we as a society,

We've kind of done like don't ask for nurturance,

Diminish your crying and your vulnerability and focus only on anger and focus only on like connection through sex.

And so I think that by allowing young people to be okay with their vulnerability,

To love themselves and to accept themselves,

Especially for our boys,

I think it's so important.

So I am very grateful to have seen that on your information.

Any thoughts about kind of in particular self-love for boys?

So it's funny as you were saying that I started smiling.

Cause it was like,

If you look at the way that our generation was raised,

Like just the movies and the TV shows and like that,

You can't cry.

You know,

You got to push down all your emotions.

Like we were set up for failure.

You know what I mean?

Like we were set up for like emotional failure,

Just because of the way that,

That,

You know,

Our parents were doing the best they could with the information they had,

But it was,

You know,

I feel like I've,

I like the fact that this generation,

You know,

They're under the right circumstances,

They're learning to be tough,

But they're also learning to be in touch with their emotions as well.

Like I feel like at some points they can get carried a little too far.

And then like the toughness is taken out of like life in general.

But I mean,

Like you do need resilience.

You do need to be mentally tough.

You do need that strength.

You can't crumble at everything that happens to you.

You know what I mean?

Like so I think there has to be that balance of the toughness and being in touch with your emotions to be able to express that.

Um,

And I think the kids that are,

That are coming up now do have an opportunity to do that again,

Under the right circumstances.

But again,

There has to be that balance because there are a lot of kids that do that.

I'm not going to say they're too in touch with,

I think they're just,

They're,

They're not in touch with their,

Their tough side or their,

Their resilience that,

That you need to get through life.

Cause life is going to be difficult.

Life is going to knock you down and you can't just focus on being sad and being knocked down.

Part of life is focusing on that,

Getting back up,

But not only getting back up,

But getting back up stronger every time life does knock you down.

Cause it's going to happen over and over and over again throughout your life.

So I think it's,

I think it's that balance.

And again,

I'm just happy to kids are there.

And we do talk about self-love with the,

The boys.

I mean,

Because there's a reason that like boys are so angry.

There's a reason that boys are so disconnected.

There's a reason that the murder rates are high in some cities,

Because a lot of these young boys don't have any regard for human life.

And you can't ask them to care about someone else's life,

To be nice to someone else,

To care about the environment,

To care about their city if they don't even care about themselves.

So like,

Why am I going to care about them?

And I don't give a damn about myself.

So like once we can take time for them to,

And that's one of the most beautiful things about what we bring to the kids is that it's that we give them the ability to connect with themselves.

Cause like most of the kids we noticed were only connected to their physical environment,

Which can be very bleak,

Can feel very helpless and very hopeless most of the time.

So like if that's all you're connected to,

I'd be mad too.

I would be pissed off at everything too.

I would be like,

You know,

I would just be angry all the time.

But once with the practice,

You connect to your true self,

They connect to that,

Let your light shine.

You connect to that,

You connect to that higher purpose.

Like you connect to that,

What all the things that are like stirring inside of us that most people ignore.

Uncle will used to always say that we're ignorant of the light.

Not that we were,

Not that we aren't aware of it,

But just that we ignore it.

We're so focused on the outside world.

And like,

You know,

Once you can turn them inward and they can start to feel that peace and that stillness,

They connect to something greater.

And they're like,

Oh,

I'm not just this,

This in this neighborhood,

I'm connected to the entire planet.

And you see them start to change.

You see them start to interact with themselves differently.

And then once they start to interact with themselves differently,

You start to see them become more compassionate,

More loving and more empathetic to the people around them.

And it's beautiful to see,

Because we've seen it with so many kids that have started off as angry little kids in our program that are now helping out their community.

That some of them have worked for us.

Some of them still work for us.

And they want to give to the world and they want to go explore outside of their neighborhood and outside of their city.

And they're going all over the place.

They're doing these amazing things because the gift that was given to us by Uncle Will,

We gave to them.

And they're giving that gift to other people,

That gift of like connection to your true self.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

That,

That was so powerful.

I kind of forgot what I was going to say.

Oh,

Actually I do remember,

You know,

One of the things you mentioned is resiliency.

And I think that's what you're teaching.

You're teaching mastery.

Because if you can take your focus away from the environment,

All the challenges and everything and focus inward and from that place,

Find peace,

Find happiness,

And then focus on your thoughts to create your dream life,

Then you have mastered this experience.

And I think,

Like you said,

We teach children to focus just on the physical,

Look at your environment.

This is reality.

This is real.

This is all that stuff.

And so they focus so much outwardly that to bring them back to themselves is such a gift,

Such a gift.

As you were saying,

One thing Uncle Will used to always say to us that still echoes in my head daily,

Constantly,

Several times a day.

It's like,

It's easier to go from the inside out than it is from the outside in.

You would always say you start your day in the light every single day,

Because then you have your frame of reference in truth and in your real self.

And then you can go out into the world and do it that way.

But it's harder,

Like you were saying,

You're going outward,

You're going outward,

You're going outward.

And then to remind yourself to come back inward,

But start your day in the light,

End your day in the light.

And because it's a lot easier to go from the inside out than it is from the outside in.

He would always tell us that.

You need to make some Uncle Willie stickers and give them to the kids so that they get Uncle Willie says,

Like I think that would be amazing because then they can put them on their backpacks and so on.

Anyways,

I,

Yeah,

I wanted to read this quote because I think is super,

Super important.

It's actually what drew me to want to have this conversation.

And that is a school replaced detention with meditation.

And the results are stunning.

Having worked in child welfare,

I have observed children who dysregulate because,

You know,

School is a hard day at the office and Mother's Day,

Father's Day,

All that stuff is very triggering.

Kids having the cops called on them.

I've seen teachers that weren't able to manage behavior and that their only response is a punitive response that then kind of trickles down.

Can you share a little bit about how your program has helped the school shift from punitive to supportive outcomes?

I can start off guys.

The program that you're talking about is our mindful moment program.

And the premise of the program is,

You know,

For one,

We have a alternative to suspension room.

I guess that's what everybody was talking about,

Changing detention to meditation.

And that wasn't our aim.

That's just what happened.

We created a space in the oasis in the school where it's like,

You know,

Oil diffusers,

Himalayan salt crystals,

Fountains,

Everything to make like a serene place in the school,

Natural lighting plants,

You know,

All that type of stuff.

When kids are in crisis,

Instead of them getting punished,

Like you were saying,

Punitive action,

They come to our room.

They can either refer themselves or teachers or administrators can refer them to come down to our room where we have it staffed by HLF.

And,

You know,

When the kids come in there,

You know,

We actively listen and mirror to empower them because people are always talking at kids and never listening.

So that kind of,

You know,

Chips off a little bit of the anxiety and the stress when,

As soon as they come into the room.

Then we talk to the kids about stress stresses and how the stress plays out in their body.

Is your teacher stressing you?

Is it appears stressing you?

Is it something that you're thinking about that happened earlier in that day?

And when you do get stressed,

How does it play out in your body?

Do you clench your fist?

Do you clench your jaw?

Do you fold your arms?

Do you shift your weight?

Do you play with your hair?

And then,

You know,

We explain that to them.

And then we go through a breathing practice or a meditation.

And,

You know,

That kind of helps them achieve homeostasis.

And then we ask the kids,

The students,

The young people are like,

So the next time you see that stressor or you feel that stress playing out in their body,

Do you think that you can do this practice,

Which you can see can kind of calm you down?

And,

You know,

The kids like,

Yeah,

I'll try it.

And it may,

They may not try it right away,

But eventually they do try it and they learn how to self-regulate.

And I think one of the beautiful things about that part of the program is the numbers start off really,

Really high at the beginning of the year.

But as the year progresses,

They dwindle,

The frequency of kids coming to the room dwindles down next to nothing because the kids do learn how to self-regulate.

And then,

You know,

We have like a school-wide practice too.

So it's like a tier one,

Tier two and tier three intervention,

You know,

Where if,

You know,

At the beginning of the school day in elementary schools,

It's at the beginning of first period of high schools,

It's at the end of first period to give the kids a grace period to get to school.

And,

You know,

We'll do a series of movement in the elementary schools,

Breathwork and meditations in the high schools,

You know,

They don't want to look,

They don't want to stand out.

So it's just like breathing and meditation.

And then we also go into like do push-ins into classrooms where,

You know,

We pay attention to when kids are bouncing off the walls,

Like after the lunch or during transition periods.

And we,

Our staff go to the room and,

You know,

Work with,

You know,

Small cohorts in the classes.

And then we also have that Mindful Ambassadors program where we train a certain percentage of the student population to help infuse these practices into the school day.

So like during testing time,

They can lead their peers to certain breathing practices that can help with test anxiety.

And,

You know,

Basically it just infuses these practices into the entire school.

I think one of the most beautiful anecdotal evidence that we have of the effectiveness of this program is,

You know,

At the high school that we started the program at Patterson High School in Baltimore,

They were known for like fights and riots,

Honestly.

They won like that crazy world star hip hop site a lot for the amount of fights that they had at that school.

But,

You know,

As we infused this program into the school,

The principal had no idea the impact that it was making on the school climate until he went to another school and saw how hectic the school was,

How frictional it was,

And,

You know,

How unempathetic the students were with each other.

And when he got back to us,

Back to the school,

He was going to go to our Mindful Moment room.

And,

You know,

Our staff,

Like I said,

They do push-ins into classrooms.

So the door was locked and,

You know,

You know,

No kids could get into the room.

Yet there was a student sitting outside of the room doing breathing and meditating.

And,

You know,

He called us up.

He was like,

Yo,

This program is amazing.

Not only was it amazing that the kid was doing breathing and meditation outside of the classroom.

And,

You know,

Our classroom was right outside of the most frequented hall space in the entire school.

He said it was amazing that,

You know,

He was like last year,

If a kid was sitting with his eyes closed,

Meditating in front of a room,

A kid might've punched him or kicked him in the face,

But now it's just a common occurrence.

It's just become part of what the school is.

And,

You know,

That in turn has that shift in the school climate is the reason why the detention numbers went down,

The suspension numbers went down,

Attendance went up,

Test scores go up.

And everywhere this program was run with high fidelity,

The same thing happened.

And,

You know,

I think that's why,

You know,

People always refer to it as a program to change attention to meditation.

You know,

All we did was just kind of bring these contemplative practices into the school and help empower these kids with self-regulation.

And I think just adding to what Oppen was saying,

I think above and beyond changing detention and meditation,

Most of what we were doing was changing the students.

Cause like the kids that are,

The kids have vibrated in a different way than people,

Than most other people on the planet.

And the schools are set up in such a way that it's not serving them.

Like you feel that you forget there's no real creativity.

Like most schools don't have art and music.

The kids are supposed to sit in a classroom the entire day.

They're not doing any movement.

A lot of schools don't have gym.

They don't have recess.

Everything's punitive.

So you do this,

You go to the office,

You do this,

You go get sent home.

You do this,

You go get sent to detention.

And you know,

The kids need something different.

So I think what we were doing was we were giving them the skills and the tools to be able to deal with the way that the schools were set up that weren't serving them.

So like we were giving them practices to,

You know,

That inner peace that's within every single one of us,

We showed them how to find it.

And then we showed them what it felt like to drift away from it,

But then we showed them how to bring himself back to it.

So like they always had a skill.

They always had a place to go,

Whether it was outside of them,

Whether it was their thoughts,

Whatever was just kind of destroying their peace.

We were giving them tools to get back to that peace and that stillness.

So I think that's what the main thing was like we,

What we've been talking about empowerment and reciprocal teaching the whole time,

But we're all about empowering people with the practice so that they can heal and save themselves.

So I think that's what the big part of this mindful moment program is changing.

Like it changed attention to meditation because the kids were changing.

They were different people.

They weren't,

So they weren't so impulsive.

They weren't stuck in sympathetic dominance.

You know what I mean?

There was the things that were going on where they were healing from the trauma they've been through and they were learning to deal with the anger and anxiety and the stress and the depression,

The things that were making them act out.

And it just shifted their,

Their,

Their worldview and the way they viewed themselves and treated themselves.

I wasn't treated everybody around them.

And as Ali said earlier,

You know,

We don't just work with the kids.

We work with the teachers as well.

So,

You know,

Another aspect of the program is,

You know,

Working during their teacher's professional development days,

Teaching them practices,

Not to bring into the classroom,

But for self care.

There's so much turnover and burnout and secondary trauma that they face that,

You know,

Not only,

You know,

Do the teachers have like a Herculean task to teach the students,

Stay on course with the curriculum and,

You know,

Help the kids with their issues and,

You know,

All this other stuff,

But they're dealing with a lot of secondary trauma that they don't know how to release.

And,

You know,

What our staff do is,

You know,

During the professional development days and then when they have their planning periods,

We go in there and work with the teachers and administrators to kind of help them de-stress,

Release that secondary trauma and be more present.

And,

You know,

That them coming from a lens where they're not as aggressive to the students also helps with that,

You know,

Changing the classroom and the school environment.

And I think that that's why this program is so impactful because not only does it work with the staff,

But,

You know,

It helps empower the teachers and administrators as well.

I just want to acknowledge because having worked in leadership for many,

Many years,

At several not-for-profits,

I know how difficult it is to change a culture.

I know how easy it is to make it negative,

But how much work and attention and intention it takes to make a culture that is positive and loving.

How much time do you guys often spend within like,

Let's say,

Give me just an example of how much time would you spend in a school in order to be able to have some of these outcomes?

I think it varies.

You know,

A lot of times it depends on where the school's at.

Some schools you'll go into there and they have instructors who are already leading mindfulness practices or doing some breadth work.

Administration's really down with it.

You go to another school and they've never done any of that type of stuff.

There might be some pushback from the adults,

Like,

Oh,

You're taking away my academic time.

I need all the time I can just to teach.

And I don't have time to do this mindfulness type stuff.

So I think it really does varies on a case-to-case basis.

When we do something like the Mindful Moment program,

It's a school-wide initiative.

So you're going to see the results quicker because the entire school is being involved in this.

And you have stuff on the loudspeaker where you have the kids or the teachers saying,

Hey,

Ignore that.

It's still being heard.

It's being part of the day.

It's present throughout the entire school year.

Sometimes when we go into schools and do a residency,

It's just us in there for a week.

You know,

The idea is to teach your training,

Get them to start implementing the programs during transition times or whenever they can.

It just may take longer for it really to impact the culture.

So I wish I had more of like a,

It'll take four or four doses of this and three of this and this many weeks and you're good.

The program will be rock bottom,

But it really just varies,

You know,

Where we're going to where their level of mindfulness or being present practices are.

And us just trying to be there to support and be a resource for them to start incorporating all these practices into the school.

So it does become,

Like we've been saying,

Just commonplace and the culture of the school shifts.

And it's like,

When we're going through adversity,

We can breathe it.

And it's just language.

Everyone's reinforcing the practices.

That's when you really see that transformation occur.

And I think what you said is very important because you're meeting people where they're at.

Instead of what Ali was saying,

You're not coming in with your huge box fit into my box.

It's like,

Okay,

Oh,

What do you need?

All right.

So maybe we'll do this and we'll implement this.

And I think that comes from all the years of wisdom that you've been doing it.

I'm going to give you your flower.

Some of the most amazing outcomes you've had are obviously emotional well-being,

Resiliency,

Decrease in stress and anxiety,

Decrease in school suspensions,

Healing trauma,

Increasing compassion and empathy,

Especially for people at risk.

Are there any outcomes that you found surprising?

Do you mean for just in general or for instance,

Schools?

Anything.

I'd say how much I'd say some of the most surprising work for me has been in the drug treatment centers with adults that we've worked in just how much,

You know,

Like people who,

People use drugs for a myriad of reasons and they've used them for a myriad of reasons,

But they're looking for something,

You know what I mean?

They're looking for something to take away a certain amount of pain or bring some joy,

Whatever they're doing.

But I think just seeing them realize that there's something inside of them that they can,

They can find stillness,

They can find peace,

They can find happiness,

They can find joy.

And then how much they take to the practice and want to share it with other people and how much you see them brighten up almost instantly from like,

Learning about the breath,

Learning about some movement,

Learning about like deep spiritual forms of meditation to connect them to that light within themselves.

And then just seeing how it shifts and transforms them.

I think that's always one of the places I enjoy teaching most is adult treatments,

Drug treatment centers for adults because of like the almost instant shift that like,

Even after the first class,

Like you see them,

They're like,

Damn,

Like,

Okay,

So I've been looking,

Whatever I've been looking for,

I've been looking in the wrong places and for the wrong things.

Like it's,

It's inside of me and I'm going to keep coming back to learn how to tap into it.

And it's just,

And it's amazing to see because they do go home and they do teach other people.

I remember there was one drug treatment center that we were working at that the clients loved us so much and we're getting so much out of the practice that the last day,

No one showed up.

Like we had a contract for,

I think it was like a few several months in the last,

They were expecting like a big like,

Hey,

And then we were like,

Where is everybody?

It was like,

They couldn't say goodbye to you all.

Like they love what you all were teaching so much that they were just like,

They had to just,

They stepped away.

And that was the end of it.

We didn't see him again,

But like,

You know,

Bumping into people out on the streets of Baltimore,

Because Baltimore is not a huge city and they might,

And they'll stop us.

And I'm like,

Hey,

Well,

I'm still using this practice.

I'm still using that practice.

But that's,

I wasn't,

I wasn't expecting that much of a shift with that population.

But I mean,

It made total sense once,

Once we saw it,

But I don't think I was expecting that when we first went into a drug treatment center for adults.

Thank you so much.

Cause I think you mentioned something that is really crucial for people to understand.

I think this war on drugs and everything we're looking,

We think that that's the outcome.

Then we got to decrease drug use when really that's the coping.

You got to address the real problem,

Which is the reason why people are using drugs,

You know,

Like people wanting to escape their own reality or wanting to tap into something else that's beyond what they were experiencing.

And what you're doing this is you're giving them different options,

Which is,

I think so important.

A few more questions,

If that's okay.

I wanted to ask what you thought unconditional love means to you.

What does unconditional love mean?

I can start off.

I would say,

You know,

Unconditional love for me is that you're loving and you're not doing it for a purpose.

You're not looking for results or something to come back to you.

You're just loving because that's kind of what we're supposed to do as human beings anyways,

Right?

There's a form of yoga that our teacher,

You'd always talk about.

We always talk about bhakti yoga and respect.

We would say,

You know,

It's the easiest form of yoga and it's the hardest because it's the easiest because you have to love everybody.

That doesn't seem that hard,

But it's the hardest because you have to love everyone.

Because I mean,

You have to love those people that are the murderers and,

You know,

The douchebags,

Right.

And the people that are,

You know,

So it's hard to love everyone,

But it's easy because it's love,

Right?

Love is great.

And so he would take the word respect and he'd say real way to look to respect is to break it into two words,

Three like again inspect like spectacle.

So to look again,

And he would say,

When we look at people,

We see them for bodies.

And then when we respect them,

We look again and we see the light within them,

Which is the light within us.

And we love them because they are just another version of us.

And I think that's for me,

What real unconditional love is.

It's just loving because I'm supposed to love.

There's no,

There's no,

I'm not doing it for a purpose.

I'm not doing it to receive anything.

I'm not doing it to get anything.

It's just loving because that's what we should be doing as human beings.

Because really we're just reflections of each other.

So my mom is one that's really,

Really embodied that practice.

I think.

And she just gives and gives and gives and loves so much.

She could be strangers with anyone.

She just loves it.

She does it.

She's not trying to get somebody to love her back.

She just is like,

This is what I think is right.

And this is what feels right to me.

It's just loving because we're all love anyways.

I love that.

As you were saying it,

I was thinking about definitely think about Vata yoga.

And when he was saying,

Cause Uncle Will would always talk about that,

But just,

I feel like unconditional love is has to start with loving yourself unconditionally.

A lot of people get,

I mean,

Like the outside world tears you down,

But like that negative self-talk and that inner critic can tear you down more than anyone outside of you.

You have to deal with those low vibrational thoughts and all that's bringing you down.

But I think when you can love yourself through all of that unconditionally and not just the good parts,

People only want to love the good parts of themselves.

You got to love those,

Those like kind of quote unquote,

Dark or bad parts of yourself,

Those little vibrational parts of yourself,

The parts that you might not like that much,

But those parts of your have taken you on your life journey as well.

Like you wouldn't be where you were without those,

You know,

The yin and the yang,

Like you need the light parts,

You need the dark parts,

You need all of that to make the whole.

So I think you got to really,

Really love yourself in that way.

And then you can start to see that love in the people around you.

But I think another part of that unconditional love is part of it has to be loving with boundaries.

You know what I mean?

Like you can't love so much because people will see people who are loving and they'll take advantage of them and they'll get over on them.

But I think you have to have enough self unconditional love for yourself that you can love with those boundaries when you know,

Like,

All right,

This person's getting over on me.

I'm not going to stop loving them,

But I'm just going to love them at a distance.

You know what I mean?

I can not have them in my energy and in my personal space.

They can be gone,

But I can still send them love.

So I think that all that ties into unconditional love.

Well,

I could listen to you guys like literally all day.

Thank you so much for taking the time out to have such an amazing conversation with me.

I'm so,

So grateful that you're able to come on because I am appreciative of your time.

Thank you for joining us to another episode of the Love and Compassion Podcast with Giselle and join us soon.

Bye!