Parenting: Mindful Discipline

Today's show is about mindful parenting and more specifically pertaining to discipline. This talk is inspired by the work of Kim John Payne of Simplicity Parenting and Dr Shefali Tsabary who speaks of conscious parenting. We mostly focussed on the 0-7-year-old child. It was a quick overview. For more details go to my slide show on Simple Discipline on my Blog. It covers all age groups.

Transcript

Welcome to Living Simply,

A guide to mindful living and mindful parenting with your host,

Dr.

Gina.

Hi,

Everybody.

Welcome to the show.

Hi,

Allie.

Hi,

Ben.

How you doing?

I'm good.

How are you?

Sorry,

Allie,

I spoke over you.

It's okay.

If you listened to the last episode,

We both still don't feel well.

That is because we're recording this at the same time.

Spoiler alert.

So we're talking about discipline today.

I'm excited about that.

Allie,

Are you excited?

Yes,

I need some advice and tips.

I don't know that my discipline is very efficient or if it works at all.

Sometimes I think.

Stepping back to the last episode,

I think that you're being a little too judgmental about yourself.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Probably a little bit.

So Gina,

On your website,

You have sort of like a five-step plan for this,

Specifically for the age.

So this is going to be disciplined,

But today,

Right now,

We're talking about ages zero to seven.

Exactly.

Okay.

So can you tell us a little bit about the slideshow and everything that's on your website and your theory?

So the slideshow on my website is based on the work of Kim John Payne,

Who wrote the book Simplicity Parenting and the Soul of Discipline.

So nothing in there is anything I invented,

But I really resonate with the work that he does,

Which is also grounded into the Steiner-Waldorf philosophy.

So that's the approach we're going to take in this show.

And we're breaking it down zero to seven because that's just a big chunk.

We could spend quite a few episodes on just that age group.

And I also really like working with that age group because it sets the foundation for the kids' whole life.

So I think that period is very,

Very important.

And so Ali,

Your son is smack dab in the middle of that age group.

Right.

Am I too late?

Am I too late to start implementing because.

.

.

You're never too late.

Good.

So my question,

I'd like to start with asking both of you because Ben,

You're around a little kid every day.

What do you guys think discipline is?

How do you guys define discipline?

Oh,

I am definitely deferring to mom to answer this question first.

I would say.

.

.

I don't know how to word it in a.

.

.

I don't want to say my expectations versus.

.

.

Well,

If you would ask someone,

Help me to discipline my kid,

What are you looking for?

Some guidance to make sure we can meet in the middle,

Him and I,

On how we interact and how we follow rules and interact together to be not yelling at each other all the time.

Not that we do.

I don't want this to sound like my kid's like this crazy terror who doesn't listen,

We just scream at each other because that's not at all how it is.

I question myself in those moments of those tantrums and those meltdowns that happen often at this age especially.

I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing to help him learn and grow and develop strategies to deal with these things basically.

So I don't know.

I don't know.

It's a good starting point.

So most people want compliance,

Right?

Basically that's what you want.

How do I get him from point A to B without having meltdowns all the time?

How do I get the kid to listen to me and understand?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So a big part of discipline throughout a child's lifetime,

Well,

Lifetime is zero to 21 because they now teenage hood lasts longer because kids are longer.

It's upsetting.

Like you're going to hear me say this a lot and repeat a lot regardless if it's discipline or anything else is we need to be really grounded in our values and let our values guide our choices because otherwise we're just navigating into this life without a map worried about what other people think.

Where am I going?

What does Joe next door do?

And there are so many different ways to raise your child and the best way to be solid in how you raise your kid and how you discipline him or her is to be really clear on what your values are.

So a big part of discipline when I work with families regardless of the issues is prevention.

So especially with the zero to seven,

They're fresh out our bellies.

So this world is a big crazy and scary world in and of itself because they were comfortable in mommy's womb.

It was warm and safe and now there's all these things they need to learn.

So we need to be clear.

What kind of human being do I want this little person to become as a woman or a man?

So the first step before you even discipline is to be the person you want your child to become.

So to have a long term vision versus short term vision.

And if you embody your values and if you embody self-discipline,

If you embody the actions,

Behaviors you want to see in your child,

That's how your child's going to learn best is by imitation.

Set the example.

Because a big mistake people make is to talk too much.

And whether it's when I work with couples or little kids at some point people go la,

La,

La,

La,

La,

They don't listen anymore.

So the phrase action speaks louder than words is really true.

So if you don't want your child to swear,

Scream,

So I'm talking beyond the regular normal screaming.

Well,

We need to be self-aware,

Thus the parenting,

Mindfully parenting with presence is I need to watch how I manage my emotions,

How I lash out,

How I speak because our children will imitate us.

And often what will trigger us is they'll imitate the worst sides of us.

Because we don't complain about the good stuff,

Right?

So if we keep that in mind,

So I always work with families,

If one of your values is,

For example,

Respect,

For a zero to seven year old,

The word respect is a very abstract term.

So we want to translate that value into behavior.

So example,

For many people,

Respect is saying please and thank you,

Right?

So we'll talk about that later.

But that's where it stems from.

We need to remember they're very concrete and they understand behaviors.

So we need to embody these behaviors.

So if we simplify it now to wanting to get compliance.

So let's say we want to use the example of picking up their toys.

And I'll use me for an example just for illustrative purposes.

Doesn't mean it's right or wrong.

It's just how it was in our house.

So I like to wake up in the morning and my house is clean and not a big old mess all over the place.

So one that was grounded in our values.

So we wake up and it's peaceful and calm.

So before the bedtime routine,

After dinner,

A little bit of play.

And how we started the bedtime routine was let's put the toys away.

So every toy had its place.

So the child learns the value of taking care of their toys,

Keeping the house clean.

So it involved a bunch of values,

Right?

So by the,

We started maybe when she was one and a half,

Two years old.

So let's say the request I want to make is we want to pick up toys.

So the mistake parents make often is go pick up your toys.

And they repeat three,

Four,

Five times.

They get upset.

I asked you to pick up your toys.

So the first thing you want to do as the adult is a request pops into your head.

I'm going to ask my child to pick up their toys.

So you want to ask yourself,

Is the time right?

Why do I want the child to pick up their toys?

Because first you got to rule out that it's just you wanting to play.

I'm just going to make a request because I'm the boss here and had a bad day.

I want him to pick up his toys.

So really to self-reflect first,

Why do I want to make this request?

So when it's pretty clear that it's a decent request and it needs to be done,

You want to make one request at a time and it has to be really small.

You also have to ask yourself,

If my child doesn't follow through after the first request,

Am I ready to stop everything I'm doing to go with my child and assist him?

So we'll use your son and help him pick up his toys,

Put them in their place so that he understands I mean business.

So we want to minimize having to repeat because you don't want to repeat because you're going to train the child to only pay attention after the third,

Fourth request.

So the initial pause is important for the parent because that happens because they knew the child doesn't even know you're doing it.

So second step,

The request needs to be small because again,

We're zero to seven,

Right?

The working memory is short.

They'll forget.

They can only focus on one thing at a time.

So what happens,

Sorry,

Sorry.

What happens if like,

Because in the example that you just gave,

You know,

Saying like,

Okay,

Well,

I requested it and I'm willing to go help them pick up the toys and do it together.

What happens if you go then to help pick up the toys and they still say no?

So the way you want to do it,

So I'll back up a bit to relate to your question is you want to start these habits early.

So the younger they are,

The more you're going to have to do it with them because you're teaching the habit.

You don't want to teach about putting toys away with words.

You want to teach it with actions and you make it fun.

You don't need to become an entertainer,

Big old clown that has to do a big parade about picking up the toys,

But you make it pleasant,

Right?

So oh,

Your little truck goes here,

Little truck in the box.

The doll goes in the little basket.

Let's fold the little blankets here and there.

So it's a period of bonding for the child.

We see it through the eyes of an adult that it's a chore,

Right?

So naturally it has a negative connotation.

But if you do it with your child and it's a bonding moment,

It just becomes another activity.

It's not we're doing the chore about picking up toys.

Little resistance usually comes the difficulty of transitions with little kids,

Which is a total different episode.

Right.

So let's assume we're doing the transition well and the child is ready for that transition from the moment of play to no more play.

It's just about teaching to put stuff away.

You do it with them so you don't do it for them.

You do it together.

And let's say we don't want to.

There'll be like a negative reaction.

No,

I don't want to do it.

What you do is you want to validate what's behind the no.

So let's say they would say no because they were playing and it's fun.

So you validate,

Yeah,

I know it means it's time for bed.

It's hard,

Isn't it?

It was fun to play.

So you validate the emotion so that they feel seen and heard.

And then it allows them to process the emotion.

You don't rush it,

But it doesn't mean it's going to take four hours.

Right?

So you validate that I know it means the day is ending.

You're a bit sad,

Aren't you?

Or if they're angry,

You validate the anger.

And then let's put this together because now we're going to do whatever comes next.

And so you don't insist verbally.

You insist by your presence,

By doing it with them in a pleasant manner.

If you're nagging,

Screaming,

Complaining,

They won't want to do it because you're not fun to be around or pleasant.

If they resist and then you just are like,

No,

I told you to pick up your toys.

You do it.

I told you to do it.

I'm not going to help you.

They're going to be like,

Well,

I'm not going to do that.

You're not even going to help.

Why should I put them away?

Yeah.

Again,

We're zero to seven,

Right?

We're not dealing with an 11 year old or 12 year old or 14.

So zero to seven,

What we want to is to get compliance by us being solid in our request.

So being authoritative,

So not authoritarian,

Like a dictator,

Like you're going to do it because I said so.

But you want to stand strong.

I know you don't want to do it.

Let's do it.

Let's do it quick.

And you use whatever gift you have.

If your gift is singing,

You turn it into a song.

If your gift is to be goofy,

Be goofy and use humor.

And that way you're teaching them compliance by being strong and not talking.

And it doesn't become an unpleasant experience.

The fun part of doing that consistently when they're little is they develop the habit of doing it even if they don't want to do it.

Because validated them that I know sometimes cleaning up is not fun,

But you know what?

Tomorrow morning you're going to come in your playroom.

It's going to be clean.

All your toys will sleep in their own little spot.

They'll be nice and comfy.

You know where they are.

No one's lost.

You don't have to search for your blue truck because you know where he is.

So you're teaching all that to the value of respecting property.

They don't have to break them and lose them.

And look how fun it is.

We always find our toys the next day.

So obviously it's not a five minute process.

The value about picking up toys can be a discussion you have around the dinner table.

It's an example when you unload the dishwasher.

Come help mommy.

Let's put the forks where in the home of the forks.

Do you know why we all put this stuff in their place so we don't have to look for them?

And doesn't it feel good when the house is all clean and we can find our things?

We don't fight.

So discipline goes beyond the moment where you're asking them to pick up a toy.

It becomes a way of being with the little kids where you're constantly teaching without formally sitting down and going I'm going to teach you now why we keep the house in order.

So you do it when you fold the laundry.

Come and help me.

Let's fold the towels and let's put them in their little home.

And then they understand why picking up their toys is important because you do it with your own things beyond just the toys.

And the important part is consistency,

Right?

Yeah.

The minute you're going to not be consistent,

It's going to be harder to undo.

So sorry about that.

Can you continue on with the I believe we're on step three.

Well,

Stay close.

So basically staying close means you do it with them.

You don't you're not upstairs screaming go pick up your toys.

You literally have to stand.

So the authority comes from being close to them,

Not from ordering them around and bossing them around.

It's you're standing there solid.

Just your presence shows you mean business.

So you don't have to bark out orders or make threats or negotiate or bribe them.

So you don't want to bribe them because that sets you up for the teenage years where they're going to bribe you.

Make your bed.

I'll make my bed if you pay me to make my bed.

And the last step is follow through.

So which links back to the pause and my really ready to follow through if my child doesn't listen.

If I'm not ready because I'm too busy,

I have to make a phone call.

It's better that you postpone the request because then you will lose face.

You won't be taken seriously.

So there's a consequence.

You want your child to take you seriously.

Yeah.

So I have learned that.

Don't say anything that I'm not willing to follow through with or do because I've said stuff before and then I'm like,

Oh,

Am I really going to do that?

I shouldn't have said that because now I don't want to have to do it.

But like,

You got to do it.

It works.

It proves the point.

And it's like,

Hey,

I'm not messing around.

This is how we act.

This is what happens when you don't listen or you don't follow what you're supposed to do.

I've found that to be something that I've been very conscious of lately and taking that moment to think before I speak because I'm not sure if I want to threaten to do something and have to do it and I'd feel awful,

Just whatever it might be.

But take that moment and make sure it's something I can go through with.

Yeah.

I mean,

What's good is like when Beatrice was little and we still have it on the wall is you can create a mini chart that lays out the routine of the day.

So usually it's a morning routine,

Evening routine.

And I made drawings instead of words.

And then we would go back to that constantly.

So it's not to get frustrated that we have to repeat,

We have to repeat.

It's just part of learning.

It's part of being a teacher and it's repetition.

So not to expect that repeating three times is enough.

We're creating new habits.

And when we go back to the charts,

Let's say you have a little chart for the evening routine,

You have a little dinner table where they're eating and then the little drawing for play and then the little drawing for picking up the toys.

And you can draw the chart together or cut out pictures,

Whatever you want.

He becomes involved in it and you make it a bonding time.

So it's art and together you're explaining why you're doing the routine.

And so when you're implementing it,

It makes sense.

Yeah.

To implement whatever you're asking them to do.

What would you say is the biggest struggle that parents have when disciplining?

I think they think,

Especially at that age,

They think that they have to consequence every misbehavior or every time they don't listen,

That there needs to be a consequence.

And actually there doesn't.

There needs to be teaching.

And so often the consequence or first reward and punishment don't teach anything.

Rewards and punishment just over time just teaches kids to do things for what they get out of it versus intrinsic motivation.

So that's a well-known fact that rewards punishment.

They work in the short term,

But it's not sustainable.

And you always have to up the ante,

Change the reward.

It's a lot of work.

So I think one of the biggest challenge is to trust that your child will learn even if you don't consequence them all the time.

That they can learn through teaching them versus they need to be punished or consequence for not doing it.

Awesome.

I think that that makes a ton of sense.

Ali,

What would you say is your biggest difficulty as a parent with discipline?

I don't know that it's.

.

.

I find the issue I have personally,

And it's not even just me and I'm not passing blame on him either,

It's inconsistencies between the houses and the people he's with.

He's not always with me.

I am not with his father.

He spends a couple days a week with him.

And there are different rules and there are different things and ways he acts that my son actually separates.

You can tell he knows I'm here.

This is what I can do here.

I'm over here.

I know what I can do.

And most of the time he knows and he knows where he is and he knows what's acceptable.

But sometimes that gets a little confusing.

And he is at my house and he does something that I'm like,

You know that this is not acceptable here.

This is not how we act.

It's not okay.

The inconsistency is between the two,

I think.

And it's hard for a three-year-old to understand that.

And it's also hard to communicate so openly to be like this.

It's really impossible almost to be completely consistent when you're two different people living two different separate lives.

So I think that's my biggest struggle that I try to be understanding of that with my son but at the same time to be like,

Well,

Maybe even if that's allowed over there,

Maybe it shouldn't be or maybe something you're not allowed to do over there.

Maybe now I'm thinking about it differently,

But it's difficult to.

So sometimes what you have to look at is when I work with the parents,

I don't know if you guys know about Dr.

Shafali's work on conscious parenting.

Please come back to yourself as a parent based on what do I want?

Why do I want it?

Is this about me or about the child?

So once you've put aside that,

Okay,

This it's not about me wanting because it happens when people are divorced or separated.

There's a reason why and I get it because I'm in that position too.

So am I insisting that one thing be done one way just to not be like the other or no,

No,

This is really my values.

Right.

So once we're really clear,

It's just about my values and I'm not reacting to the other person.

Yeah.

Then we react to our child.

So once we're there,

What we have to remind ourselves is no matter where our child will be,

There'll be different rules.

Right.

So in school,

There'll be different rules at grandma's house,

Different rules,

Mommy's house,

Daddy's house.

So the sooner as a parent we can accept that it's part of life,

At the beginning of his height,

He'll be confused.

How come I can do this at school,

But I can't do it here and I can do it at home?

I mean,

Even as adults,

Like at work,

There are rules that we have to follow that we don't have to follow at home.

That's just how it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But they're learning that so that they're at the beginning of learning that so it's normal they can be confused.

Yeah.

So then it's our job to keep repeating.

Like you said,

Let's say he go,

Well,

At daddy's house,

I can do this.

That's awesome.

Then do that when you're at daddy's house.

In mommy's house,

This is what we do.

And then you re-explain the value behind it.

Right.

And that's a good way to say it too,

Because rather than saying,

Well,

Like,

No,

We don't do that here.

Like,

Don't judge that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so example,

We don't do screens,

TV.

When she was very little,

She never really watched TV until she got sick because then she couldn't do anything else.

But at her dad,

She could watch more screens.

Right?

So she learned that in our house is just different and it's not bad because she does it at daddy's house.

Right.

But then we learned to balance.

So it's okay.

In this house,

This is what we're going to do.

And this is why we do it this way.

Oh,

Look,

We're going to do this instead.

And you re-explain the behavior.

Again,

It's repetition versus just,

No,

I said no,

Because we just don't do it here.

Because it's so confusing for them.

Like,

For us,

We understand why we don't go at work in our shorts or a bikini.

We don't need to be told 20 times.

We just know.

But for a child,

Certain things are not that obvious.

So we just need to repeat and understand that we need to repeat because they're so little.

And they're learning so many things all at once that we've had years to integrate.

Right?

They're learning to manage emotions.

They're learning language.

Their brains are learning so many things all at once.

So we should understand that they're going to forget.

And they're not masters at all these things.

They're going to mess up.

So when they forget,

Oh,

You forgot.

You forgot.

Yeah,

At mommy's house,

We don't do that.

This is why.

And we put our frustrations on the shelf because it's okay to be frustrated.

Right?

Right.

Oh,

I have to repeat then.

And then you get frustrated on your own with your friends.

I can't believe I have to repeat this.

But with your child,

You repeat,

You make it not such a big deal.

And you validate that it's confusing.

Right?

You're like,

I know,

Isn't it confusing?

All these rules at school,

You can do this at daycare.

You can't.

It's so much information,

Isn't it,

To have all that once in our heads.

So you put yourself in their shoes on why they might forget,

Why they might be confused.

Because as a parent,

We take it personally.

Right?

Why doesn't he get it?

Why doesn't she get it?

I keep repeating.

We keep thinking it's about us,

But it's not about us.

Yeah.

Okay.

Sorry.

I wish if I just let you guys keep talking.

I think that this episode would be an hour long.

And as it is,

We've already gone over what we usually do by quite a bit.

Fantastic.

This has been a fantastic episode with a lot of great stuff.

I'm sure this is not the only time we'll be talking about discipline.

And if you want to check out that whole,

The zero through five,

The list,

The whole slide show,

Check that out on Dr.

Gina's website.

But we got to end the way that we end every episode now with some moments of gratitude.

And I started last episode,

So I'm not doing that this time.

Allie.

No.

Okay.

Well,

Today,

Well,

I already said I was thankful today in the last episode,

But I can find another.

You should.

You should.

Yeah.

I am thankful today for,

I don't know,

Just having like today and tomorrow,

I have a lot to do,

But I have the days off from work that I get to spend with my son.

And we have things we have to do,

But at least I can be pretty one-on-one with him for most of it.

And I know our next week or so is going to be really crazy and busy.

So I'm trying to take these two days as just nice moments together.

So I'm thankful for that.

All right.

I'll go next because Gina should end for sure.

I am,

You know what?

Something that you said earlier in the episode about the imitation and how children mirror our behaviors and stuff.

I think that we often think about that as like when we yell and swear and stuff and they mimic that.

But I think that not enough attention is given to the other side of that when they mimic stuff that we do well.

And I just thought about,

You know,

I've had a lot of conversations with someone else about,

You know,

Sort of their role in a child's life,

Not as the father,

But someone that's just giving the mother love.

And you know,

We've talked a lot about like years ago,

We talked a lot about like if that's the best thing that you can do is just like openly love her in front of that child.

And today's episode made me think a lot about how sweet he is as a little boy and how open he is to love and how warm and generous.

And it occurred to me that that is mirroring an imitation a little bit at least.

So I'm grateful for this podcast because it gives me perspective on things that I didn't look at before.

That's great.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Allie,

Do you know what I'm talking about by any chance?

I sure do.

Okay.

Gina,

What are you grateful for?

I'm grateful for this water and grateful that I actually live in a country where I shower in drinking water when most of the world doesn't even have drinking water and I get to shower in it.

So I think we're pretty lucky.

Yeah,

That's really definitely.

I'm grateful for this drinking water,

Which I also shower in,

But that's just because I'm incredibly wasteful.

I'm sorry.

I also,

This is a great way to end if you're watching this on the video.

Is this toy important because I totally broke it during this podcast?

It doesn't break.

It was put together.

That's fine.

Okay.

It's supposed to come apart.

It's fine.

Okay,

Cool.

All good.

Awesome.

All right,

Gina,

Where can people find you?

DrGina.

Ca and DrGina Madrigrano on Facebook and DrGina on Twitter.

Awesome.

All right,

Guys.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

For more information or to book an appointment with Dr.

Gina,

Go to DrMadrigrano.

Com or click the link in the description of this episode.

Reviews

nice examples and easy to implement. thanks for making what can be complex, very simple.