Why Narcissists Don't Do Well in Therapy

If you've ever been in therapy with a narcissist, you might have ended up feeling frustrated, angry, and maybe even duped. Scientific research suggests that narcissists have a difficult time changing their behavior, so that means you're not crazy if you feel like you can't get anywhere with someone with high narcissistic traits. In this episode, you'll learn why.

Transcript

Welcome to the Breakdown to Breakthrough podcast. My name is Lisa A. Romano. I am a life coach, Bestselling author, YouTube vlogger, Meditation teacher, And expert in the field of codependency and narcissistic abuse. I am a believer in the power of an organized mind. My aim is to help people learn what it means to live above the veil of consciousness rather than living a reactive life. May your heart feel blessed, Your mind feel expanded, And your spirit find hope as you spend time with me here at the Breakdown to Breakthrough podcast. Today we're going to be discussing narcissists and therapy. So let's start off by explaining always that narcissism is a personality trait. It is something that slides up and down a spectrum. So you can have a narcissistic trait. You can have narcissism. You can be more narcissistic one day, Less narcissistic another day. You can have a bout of entitlement and resolve it very quickly. You and I, I include myself when I say you, You and I can have a period where we blame someone else for why we feel the way we feel, But hopefully we rebound and we recognize that that's not healthy. We recognize that it's up to us to take care of ourselves. We recognize that blaming other people for our failures is unfair and it's not healthy and we're not teaching our children anything about self accountability and self reliance and self respect. We recognize that narcissism does exist on a spectrum and when it is a pervasive pattern in someone's life, That is when we are more likely to say that someone is a narcissist. So we're not a narcissist sometimes. We're a narcissist all the time. So someone who is a narcissist is someone who is narcissistic to friends, Narcissistic to family. You'll see it. Although there are plenty of narcissists who are chameleons and who will treat people on the outside better than they do their own family. And this is to gain a source of narcissistic supply outside the house as well as keep the narcissistic supply going inside the house. At least that's the way I look at it. So when we're talking about narcissism, We're talking about someone who is abusive to various people, Not just you. So I think one of the telltale signs of narcissism is pay attention to how someone treats someone who can do nothing for them. How do they treat the person behind the counter at Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts? How do they treat the person at the car wash? How do they treat the person at the dry cleaner? How do they treat the person that's standing in line to them? How do they treat people that are not their own? How do they treat people that are not their own? And I think that's the way narcissistic narcissists view people as sources of commerce. There's something in it for them. You've got to be able to give something to them. They've got to be able to take something from you. You're going to see their character deficits show up where you'll see their lack of empathy in full bloom. And so that's important to look for also. When we're talking about narcissists in therapy, We're talking about, At least in this session, What I wanted to talk about is what does the science say about how narcissists behave in therapy? And why are they so difficult to treat? Why are they so difficult to diagnose? And why is it so hard to get to the root core of someone's narcissism? Now there are some people, And if you haven't read The Narcissism Epidemic by Jean Twenge and Keith Campbell, I highly recommend it. It's quite a read. And one of the things that he talks about and she talks about is this idea that there's a myth when it comes to narcissism that they're exploring. And the myth is that all narcissists are wounded at their core. There are these wounded ducks and they have this false image that they are presenting to the world because they're really insecure. Dr. Campbell and Dr. Twenge are suggesting that there are narcissists that actually score pretty high on the self-esteem tests, Which implies that not all narcissists are struggling with a dark soul and tremendous abandonment. There are narcissists that like themselves and really do believe that you're less than and really do believe that they're amazing. If you think about what's happening in a lot of what's going on across these major corporations, What happened at Enron, What happened at Uber, The lack of empathy that these companies had for the people that they serve. And when we're talking about narcissism and CEOs and CFOs and heads of companies, What we're talking about is a lack of empathy for the people that work there as well as for the people they serve. It's all about the bottom dollar. It's all about success. And if you're not achieving, Then get out of my way. And this idea that they can step on you to get what they want, Which is money, Which is prestige, Which is seen as the most powerful and successful. And I really do think that we need to look at that when it comes to competition. While I think they say healthy competition is good, I think that it's more important that we especially encourage children to try. And if they want to experience self-esteem, Remember self-esteem comes after you've achieved, Not before. So self-esteem comes from the achieving of a goal, The actually doing of a goal, And anything less than that. So self-esteem that is not based on actually, I'm really good at that thing, Is going to fall flat. And so I think it's important that we as parents consider that, That if we want our children to have real self-esteem, Then that comes after they've achieved, Which means that they've learned that hard work does pay off. And that don't give up just because you fail the first time. Don't give up. Just keep going. Believe in yourself. Focus on the goal. Don't worry about what other people are doing. Don't worry about stepping on the head of someone else. Just stay in your own lane. If this is what you want to do, Let's figure out how you can achieve it. So I think that's an important marker. Now when we're talking about narcissists and therapy, Why would a narcissist in Silicon Valley who is running an amazing company that their stock is going through the roof, Everybody wants to rub elbows with them, Everybody wants to drop their name, Everybody wants to be in the it group. Why would that person go into therapy? Even though the employees may see narcissism in them and lose respect for him or her over time, Why would that narcissist go into therapy? There's no reason to really. It stands to reason that if you're a Silicon Valley CEO and you're a narcissist, That you're probably not going to go into therapy because your life looks pretty good from the outside. It might even feel good on the inside. You have all the dates you could ever want. You have people throwing themselves at you. You're surrounded by yes people. You're surrounded by people that want to be around you. So why would you want to go into therapy? That narcissist might be highly destructive, Might be highly immoral, Perhaps. Not saying that everybody who is a CFO or a CEO is immoral. I'm not saying that, But I'm talking about the narcissistic head of a company. Are they going to go into therapy if they're driving around in the Maserati and they have a couple of penthouses all throughout the states and maybe even throughout the world and people are throwing themselves at them? Their life feels pretty good, Looks pretty good. So they're not going to go into therapy. The people who date them will go into therapy. The people who love them, People who work with narcissists, Who suffer from PTSD as a result of working with people who are highly narcissistic or anxiety or depression, They will go into therapy, But not the narcissist. Now when we're talking about what happens probably more likely on the daily is that partners of narcissists drag them into therapy. And according to Psychiatric Times, I will post the link in the description box, There is some pretty incredible insights that I wanted to share with you. And what they discuss, The three reasons that they outline pretty clearly as to why narcissists do poorly in therapy is because there's a reluctance to therapy. There is a negative therapeutic reaction. So they're really not interested in being there and they react poorly to the actual therapy and early dropout rate. So if a narcissist does end up in therapy, Then they're going to be reluctant to work with the therapist to open up and they're going to have a negative reaction to being prodded. They're going to have a negative reaction to a therapist wanting to dig deep or maybe even asking them to be a little bit more self-reflective, Which is accountability, And they tend not to stay in therapy. Another thing that the article suggests is that narcissism also comes along with other disorders. It comes along with MDD or major depressive disorder. It comes along with bipolar disorder. It can be seen with addiction, Alcoholism. There tends to be a preoccupation with criticism of other people and also a preoccupation with blaming other people. Now if you've been to therapy, The whole point of therapy is to be introspective. It's to learn about what I can do to fix myself. What can I do to stop blaming other people? How can I identify areas in my life that I continue to screw up in so that I can change? Because ultimately the only person that can change in your life that you have control over is you. We get stuck when we're in narcissistic relationships because we're looking at this poor behavior and in our head we think if the narcissist would just stop doing that, Then we'd be better. And we're doing what a narcissist does. We're blaming a narcissist and we're giving our power over to a narcissist when instead we should be asking ourselves how do I feel about this work environment? How do I feel about this friendship with this narcissistic friend that I have who is dismissive, Who is argumentative, Who expects me to just drop everything to be there for them all the time even though they have a severe lack of empathy for the fact that my mother just died. It's not about ever about me. It's wow, Your mother died and now you can't be there for me. Like what's up with that? It's that bad when you're dealing with a narcissistic friend. And so what we have to do if you're someone who is in love with a narcissist or has a narcissistic friend or whose parent is a narcissist, One of the things that we're trying to learn how to do is to detach and to sit in the space of well, How does this narcissistic behavior affect me? So we want to cut these cords to narcissistic personalities and learn to stay in our body while we figure out like how does this make me feel? What am I in control over? What am I not in control over? And another thing to keep in mind is that the past is a pretty good judge for your future. And so if you've had this terrible experience with someone with narcissism, You have to accept that that is the biggest indicator that your future is going to look similar to that. And so the only person that you can really change is you. And so when we're talking about a narcissist in therapy, There's a resistance to change. There's a reluctance that therapists and psychiatrists note in patients who have narcissism or who are struggling with NPD. There is this aversion to the whole therapeutic situation. There is this blaming thing going on. Lots of times narcissists will end up in therapy because a spouse has brought them there or they've gotten a bunch of DUIs or they're looking to screw around and take advantage of disability insurance. Sometimes they've gotten into a bunch of fights and now they have to go in for anger management and part of what they need to do to keep their job is to go into therapy. Another issue that narcissists will have and make them resistant to therapeutic techniques is that they don't believe that a therapist is intelligent enough to actually help them. They believe that they are more intelligent than the therapist. So it's sort of like a joke. What are you going to teach me? Like you really think that you know me better than I know me. You really think that you're going to be able to help me. And so it's not a therapeutic setting. In order for someone to be helped by a therapist, There has to be some trust that the person that you're speaking to actually has some level of competence that is going to be favorable to you to help you bring about change in your life. So it's almost like a competition between the narcissist and the therapist. So when a narcissist ends up in therapy, It's a joke in most cases. They don't really want to be there. They feel like they have to be there. The court says that they have to be there. The attorney in the divorce case has suggested that the people that are in the custody suit be evaluated. They have to be evaluated. So it's not like a narcissist is actually walking into therapy. In lots of cases, They've been dragged or they feel forced into a therapeutic situation. Narcissists tend to be defensive. And so even in any conversation, Whether it's with a therapist or with a colleague or with a friend, Narcissists tend to be really irritable that you're suggesting that they need to listen, That they need to learn something. So it's because in their head, They have this grandiose version of themselves, This sense of importance. And to them, You're a jokester. You have no value. Like why are you asking me these questions? Like how dare you even suggest that I should be answering your questions? So they tend to be very defensive. One of their goals in therapy is to manipulate the therapist. So they're even trying to strategize and figure out a way where they can manipulate the clinician, Figure out a way to get the clinician to do what they want them to do. So if this narcissist needs to be cleared because of anger management, Then they want the clinician to write them off, Tell the court that I showed up for X amount of sessions. Another thing that will happen in therapy with a narcissist is that they want to feel special. And so they will push therapists boundaries. They want extra time. They want you to treat them more uniquely. They might want a personal parking space. This makes it difficult to treat them because their sense of entitlement shows up in therapy. And so when you're trying to help someone who is a narcissist, Dealing with their entitlement gets in the way because they really do think that they're special and they want the clinician or the therapist or the doctor to view them that way. This gives them a strategic edge over other people and even over the clinician. So they think in order for therapy to work, You have to have trust and a willingness to look within. You have to trust the person that you're working with in order to be in a healthy relationship. You have to trust the person that you're in a relationship with in order for therapy to work. You have to be willing to share your vulnerabilities and narcissists tend not to have the patients. Narcissists don't have the willingness to go within to be introspective. They don't have the willingness to change their mindset. They're very dismissive and they have not a whole lot of patience for other people who they think they should think well of. So if you're thinking about a therapeutic situation, It's presumed that the therapist should be able to help the narcissist. And what happens is because this distrust of the therapist, There becomes this competition between the narcissist and the therapist. And sometimes the competition is for the therapist's favor. So if you have a narcissist as a spouse or a coworker or a friend and you're in therapy, Then we have triangulation going on. The narcissist might even want to have sessions with you alone separate from your spouse just so they can start the smear campaign, The triangulation, Just so they can start to explain how special and unique the situation is with their partner and how they must understand what's really going on. So they're trying to hijack the sessions when they're in therapy, Which is one way to make sure that therapy is not going to work when you're in therapy with your partner. So this idea of playing on a team, Narcissists are not very good at team sports. They need to be seen as leaders. They need to be seen as superior. And so imagine you're bringing your spouse or your coworker or a friend, A family member into therapy and you believe that this person has high narcissistic traits. This narcissist is going to be dismissive and may even want to manipulate the therapist to their advantage so that they can triangulate, So he or she could triangulate the therapist against you. So they're not very patient. They're not there to be introspective. The idea that they have to be in therapy annoys them, Right? You've dragged them into therapy. There's nothing wrong with them. You just don't understand them. If you just listen to everything that they told you to do, You'd get along. If you just listen to me, Lisa, If you did everything I told you to do, If you admitted to me that you were ridiculous, That your suggestion that we should be able to have an equal conversation is ridiculous. Look how you live. You're just too much. You just want too much. You're never happy. You're just so sensitive. What's the big deal if we don't talk? What's the big deal if I don't care about your feelings? Why do we have to talk about your feelings, Right? So they're very dismissive. So now you're in a therapeutic situation. That person is not going to hear what the therapist has to say. In two different situations with my ex-husband, He quit therapy. In the situation where I found my own personal psychotherapist and my therapist suggested that we bring my ex-husband in, He absolutely refused. When I wanted my children to go into therapy, Which the psychotherapist suggested, My ex-husband was not happy about it. He made a big stink. He didn't want the kids to go into therapy. So there was this big resistance to going into therapy, Which is basically what you're saying is I'm in resistance to looking within. I'm in resistance to change. I'm not going to change. This is who I am. What I noticed in my own life with my parents growing up was that my parents, Especially my dad, Would discredit therapists. If my father ever heard you discussing therapy, He would put the therapist down. He would say things like, Oh, It's a bunch of psycho mumbo jumbo. Those people don't know what they're talking about. They're therapists because they all have problems. So as a child to this man, You feel like, Well, Am I really going to go into therapy now? This is what my father thinks of therapists? So his distrust of therapists then becomes a child's distrust of therapists or my distrust of therapists. In my case, I always felt that I was selfish if I went into therapy because that was also part of my parents' programming, That how dare you pay out of pocket or pay anyone to just sit and listen to you? How narcissistic is that? Was their attitude? So me thinking I needed therapy, Although I always believe that I need therapy, I knew I was in trouble, But I live with a man who insinuated that if I went into therapy, That meant I was crazy, Which is kind of scary. Like do you really want your spouse to think you're crazy? Do you want everyone in your family to think you're selfish? And maybe it does mean you're selfish if you're going into therapy. You are spending money to try to get better. Lions and tigers and bears, Oh my, This dysfunctional family nonsense. In a healthy family, Family members want you to do everything you possibly can to understand yourself so you can fix yourself, So you can focus on what you need to change, Modify your behavior that's getting you into trouble, Get into less trouble in relationships, Manifest healthier relationships, Get into less trouble at work, And actually develop compassion for yourself and other people and get along better with other people. That's the whole goal. When you come from a narcissistic family, You have all of these mixed messages and all of these negative messages about taking care of yourself. Then I finally went into therapy and it was only after my ex-husband and I separated that he agreed to go into marital therapy and to stay there, But he quit. The therapist was very honest with me. She said, You have to keep growing. You can't stop because he's frustrated because we're asking him to be introspective and to take accountability for his part in this relationship. Look, If you're in a codependent narcissistic relationship and you're going to stay, The only way to fix it is if both people come together and agree to fix it. A narcissist that agrees to go into therapy, It's going to be a frustrating process because narcissists are resistant. They are generally argumentative. They see the therapist as a threat. They see the therapist as a joke. They see the therapist as competition. They don't really want to change, So it's going to be a tough call. If you're deciding to stay in a relationship with a narcissist and therapy is part of your plan, Just know you're going to be there for quite a while. It's going to take a long time and you're going to need to find the right therapist who isn't going to challenge the narcissist and go head to head with the narcissist. That's not what therapy with the narcissist is all about. If you're going to find a therapist who's going to get triggered by this narcissism, It's the wrong therapist. You want to make sure that you're dealing with somebody who is highly mature and whose ego isn't invested in the outcome. If you're dealing with someone who's like, I'm going to break this narcissist, That's narcissistic and that's making it about the therapist. That's not what a true therapist's job is. This is there to help and support the two of you grow and move beyond these challenges so that you can move into a healthier space. In the codependent narcissistic dynamic, The codependent is the one, In my opinion, That is more able to change. I can tell you I've worked with thousands of codependents. I'm a self-proclaimed codependent myself. I was excited when I went into therapy and I finally figured out what was wrong. It was exciting to know there was a name for what I had. It made me excited because like, Okay, Then I can fix it. If it has a name, Then I can fix it. I'm not crazy. My experience with working with so many codependents is that they are relieved when they recognize that they are doing something wrong because it's so refreshing to realize that you're not crazy, That because there is this name to the thing that you're doing, Then you can fix it. In the case of a narcissist, Remember, Narcissists are not very good at being introspective. What makes them very, Very challenging to live with, To love, To work with, And to work with in a therapeutic setting is that although they can identify the feelings of other people, They aren't very good at having the ability to care about how the other person feels. Yeah, I know that my best friend's mom passed away and I know that she's really needy right now, But I really. . . When is she going to get over it? Yeah, They were never really close and she missed the opportunity to have a true mother and daughter experience, But everyone dies. Why doesn't she just get over it? That makes it really, Really difficult to have a healthy relationship with anyone. If you cannot have empathy and experience and imagine what other people are going through, There is no relating. There's no relating. You're having a conversation, But you're not relating. Relating means that I see you and you see me and wow, We can imagine what it feels like to walk in one another's shoes. Then I feel seen, Then I can be vulnerable with you because when I share my vulnerability with you, Because you know what it feels like to be vulnerable, I know you're not going to exploit it. When you're dealing with a narcissist who has the inability or is impaired, Cannot do that, Doesn't have the same emotional reaction to other people's experiences, Then that's really scary because that person doesn't know what it feels like to be you in when you are the most vulnerable, Which means that the likelihood that they will exploit you when you're vulnerable is very likely, Which is really, If anything made me realize it was time to end my marriage, It was that. It was recognizing that when I was vulnerable, It didn't matter. When I was vulnerable, When I was most vulnerable, That's when I was hurt the worst. That's when I was kicked, When I was down. I was humiliated more when I was vulnerable. It was really mind boggling because in my mind, There were just lines I was not going to cross. There were secrets that I was not going to share with anyone. There were things that I was not going to say. But in my relationship with my ex-husband, When I realized that he crosses that line often, And as my children got older, He crossed that line more often with the children. That is why today they have no contact with him whatsoever. It's a consequence of this lack of empathy thing and thinking that you can say whatever you want to someone and then the next day act like you didn't say it, Or you act like, Oh, It was just a joke, Or you turn around and you say, Well, You're so sensitive. That's the reason. My argument to that eventually was, Well, If you weren't so insensitive, Then maybe the kids wouldn't be so sensitive. There are lines that you just don't cross in relationships. When it comes to narcissists, They cross those lines. There is this lack of morality. There's this lack of civility that is just part of a narcissist's agenda. Exploiting you and exploiting a therapist is not off the radar. It is absolutely part of the radar. If you've ever tried to work in therapy with a narcissist, Know that you're not crazy. Know that you didn't make it all up. That part of their personality makes them resistant to working in therapy. They're reluctant and their dropout rate is very high. So resolution in a therapeutic setting with a narcissistic spouse, A narcissistic friend is not likely.

Reviews

Good job this is so true! May all beings be free of narcissistic abuse! Thanks for sharing!

The most intelligent woman I’ve ever heard speak

Spot on! Story of my life with my Mama!! At 92 her narcissistic ways are going strong! Will it ever end..... sadly no. 😰