Rational People Get This Wrong About Narcissists

In this episode, learn what rational people often don't understand when it comes to narcissism. If you've ever felt abandoned by someone you trusted when you told them about a narcissistic relationship, it may be because even the most well intended people can get this wrong when it comes to narcissists.

Transcript

Welcome to the Breakdown to Breakthrough Podcast.

My name is Lisa A.

Romano.

I am a life coach,

Bestselling author,

YouTube vlogger,

Meditation teacher,

And expert in the field of codependency and narcissistic abuse.

I am a believer in the power of an organized mind.

My aim is to help people learn what it means to live above the veil of consciousness rather than living a reactive life.

May your heart feel blessed,

Your mind feel expanded,

And your spirit find hope as you spend time with me here at the Breakdown to Breakthrough Podcast.

So today we're going to be talking about what some rational people get wrong when it comes to narcissists.

So today we're going to be talking about what some rational people overlook and ignore and miss when it comes to a narcissistic personality.

Now when we're talking about a narcissistic person,

We aren't always talking about somebody who has a full blown personality disorder.

Most of us in our lifetime will bump up against someone who has high narcissistic traits.

This is someone who can either be grandiose or who can be covert,

Who blames other people for why they are the way they are.

They are people who never take responsibility for themselves.

And if you were to dare to point out a negative trait,

They would just turn around and blame you for why they think and why they feel,

Why they stay,

And why they do what they do.

So essentially,

It will always be your fault.

If we are talking about somebody who has a narcissistic personality disorder,

This is a pervasive pattern.

This is something that you see in someone across the board.

This is not someone who has a bad day.

This is not your best friend who is moody and who has decided to uninvite you to a dinner party because you had an argument the day before.

We can all have moments like that where we are not our best self.

If we are relatively healthy,

And we are not narcissistic,

Once we cool down and we think about it,

We're able to see our part in it.

We have self-awareness,

We have personal insight,

And we also have empathy for others.

There's a clear vision for what we want to attain in our friendships and in our family relationships.

It's important for us to get along with other people.

It is also important for us that other people feel seen,

That other people feel heard.

But we're also willing to accept responsibility when we have a bad moment,

When we are accusatory,

When we are unfair.

For those who struggle with codependency,

We have a tendency to feel guilty and overresponsible and really ashamed most of the time.

If you struggle with codependency across the board,

You are someone who lacks self-esteem,

You lack self-awareness,

And there is a loss of selfhood.

When you combine someone who has codependency,

Who is other focused,

Who feels like love is conditional,

And who has been brainwashed as a child to believe that they need to prove themselves worthy of someone else,

Then you can see how easy it is for a codependent to become entangled with someone who has more narcissistic traits,

Someone who is self-focused,

Someone who needs to be the center of someone else's world.

Both the codependent and a narcissist lack personal insight.

They lack the ability to recognize how they are both being dysfunctional and are creating a situation and a dynamic that is toxic.

The good news is for someone who is highly codependent,

Once you realize that you are in a toxic relationship and want to identify specifically how perhaps being raised by an alcoholic parent or perhaps being raised by a narcissistic mother and or narcissistic father,

Perhaps as the result of childhood emotional neglect,

Perhaps as the result of being adopted out into a family that did not do a very good job raising you,

All of these factors can parlay into feeling unworthy and help to create the dynamic that we know as codependency.

When we are talking about people who have high narcissistic traits and we are in relationships with them,

We don't always recognize it.

There are grandiose narcissists that I think are much easier to spot.

These are the people who are braggadocious.

These are the people who have to have the last word.

These are the people that want to appear smarter than everyone else.

These are the people who say negative things about other people who have succeeded in life.

There's envy,

There's jealousy.

There's a sense that they need to be the center of everyone's world.

They need to be admired.

I think one of the scary things about a narcissist personality is that they will settle in some cases for being feared.

If you don't acquiesce to their need to be praised and validated and to be held as the center of your world,

Then they will be comfortable in lots of cases with being angry and rageful and causing you to bend to their will and they will use intimidation to make that happen.

Essentially a narcissist has to overcompensate for them not feeling like they are good enough.

They fear vulnerability.

They do not want to appear vulnerable.

They do not want to appear as if they do not have all the power in the room.

And that's because that's the exact opposite of how they truly feel at their core.

Beyond the steel doors that hold their personality,

Beyond the conscious mind,

Deep in the subconscious mind is someone who fears being vulnerable.

This is someone who fears that if you knew the truth about them,

They would implode.

And so they hide it even from themselves.

And this false self is really an effort to create a facade that they can hide behind,

Sort of like an actor in a world play.

They are the actor of their life.

They're not insecure.

They're not envious.

They're not jealous.

They're not vulnerable.

They're simply better than everybody else.

But then there's the closet narcissist,

Or I call them the boy scout narcissist,

Who seems helpful,

Who buys your mom's flowers for her birthday,

Who is always willing to help.

But behind closed doors,

When it's just you and this person,

The relationship is about dominance.

The relationship is about control.

The relationship is about dependency.

When it comes to rational people on the outside of a narcissistic relationship,

There are things that rational people,

Logical people,

People who may have never ever encountered someone with high narcissistic traits,

People who like to see the best in other people,

People that have no idea how crazy making it is to be in a relationship with someone who consistently uses the term,

Yeah,

But the devil made me do it.

Or yeah,

But it's your fault.

Or yeah,

But it's not my fault.

Or you're in a relationship with someone who refuses to see your point because they're really not concerned about you feeling seen.

They're concerned about being right.

And so these are the types of conversations that go on until four or five o'clock in the morning.

When you're bringing something to someone who has high narcissistic traits,

It seems so simple,

But not to someone with high narcissistic traits,

Not to someone who has a high conflict personality,

Not to someone who is highly disagreeable.

Oh no,

The conversations that you have with someone who is a high conflict personality,

Someone who is highly disagreeable,

You have to be wrong and they have to be right.

Now what option do you have?

What option do you have if you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend that is highly combative,

Highly argumentative and is impossible to please?

What option do you have in a relationship with someone that you love and you care for when you have something to say that disagrees with them?

What option do you have when this person is relentless?

When this person refuses to see your side?

When this person blames you for being wrong?

They say that you're wrong.

What option do you have when you feel unheard?

Well,

If you don't recognize that you're dealing with someone who can't see you,

If you don't recognize that you're dealing with someone who is built to not hear you,

That was a huge breakthrough moment for me when I realized I was dealing with someone who is literally wired to disagree with me.

This person was wired to not see me.

No matter what I said,

It could be as clear as day,

The sky is blue.

If I said the sky was blue,

He would say,

No,

The sky is purple.

If I said the grass is very green today,

He would say,

Not really.

It looks kind of brown to me.

I never realized that this was his way of staying one up on me.

I never realized,

And that's a silly explanation,

But it was a daily occurrence.

Most of the time,

It didn't register for me because as a codependent person,

I doubted myself.

I had a need to please him.

When I said something and it displeased him,

I really thought that I had done something wrong.

And I thought,

Well,

Maybe I need to check my perspective until it got to a point where I just couldn't do this anymore.

And the longer you stay married to someone,

In my opinion,

The greater the problems are that you have to face as a couple,

Especially if you have a business and you have children.

One of the issues that I ran into that I never understood at the time was that when someone from the outside is listening to a narcissist talk,

They don't have all the information,

Obviously.

The narcissist is a different person behind closed doors.

The narcissist argues with you in a way that they do not when there are witnesses around.

A narcissist is built to win arguments and they thrive on feeling like they have power over you.

So if a narcissist is able to confuse you,

If a narcissist is able to get you to give up your position,

They feel powerful.

The narcissist feels threatened by you when you don't agree with them.

Their defenses go up,

They go into full blown attack mode in terms of conversation.

And sometimes it doesn't feel like an attack.

Sometimes it's just exhaustion.

Sometimes it's just how many times do we have to have this conversation?

You don't realize that the narcissist is built to devalue you,

To discredit your opinion and to basically convince you that your perception is wrong.

I never put two and two together until many years later when I realized that when a narcissist talks to someone on the outside who is rational and who is logical,

In my humble opinion,

I think oftentimes the person who is receiving this information is thinking he or she must be right because why would this person be acting this way if the person they're talking about wasn't crazy?

Let's say a narcissistic husband.

Why would this narcissistic husband be this irate and be this upset and this out of control if his wife didn't do something or if his children weren't being disrespectful?

Why would someone who seems so out of control be this way if someone didn't make them that way?

If you are the target of a narcissist and you are experiencing triangulation,

What is happening on the outside is that if a narcissist is talking to somewhat rational people,

In their head,

They're not understanding that they're dealing with someone who sees themselves as a victim,

Who is also causing this triangulation to occur as an insurance policy.

If you have a sister who is highly narcissistic and she treats you poorly behind closed doors and then she goes to the salon and she bumps into one of your friends and she just starts talking about how out of control you are and how concerned she is over you and even if your sister gets a little loud and curses and starts to talk really,

Really poorly about you in the mind of your friend who may and hopefully is rational,

Their mindset is there must be a reason that this person is so upset.

We see this in court systems too.

If you go to court and you're dealing with someone who has high narcissistic traits and they're exaggerating their claims about you,

They could be lying about you.

You have to be careful.

There are some judges that will fall for this behavior and they may think,

Well,

It must have been pretty bad if this person is so upset because to a rational person,

It's cause and effect.

So if you throw a match on a pile of sticks that has been doused with gasoline,

It's going to explode.

It's going to be a hot fire.

It's going to be a mess.

There's this idea that if someone's upset,

Someone else made them upset.

I don't think it's as acceptable or as understood,

At least this notion that when it comes to people who have high conflict personalities,

That you have to take that rationale and throw it out the window.

That's what I find so valuable about YouTube videos,

Podcasts,

Books,

And alike,

Because here's an opportunity for people who have been the target of narcissism,

Who have been the person that the narcissist blames for all of their problems.

It gives people who are confused by their relationship a platform to explore these ideas.

And I think there's great value when you're hearing from people who have actually walked that walk.

When my ex-husband and I went into therapy,

He was a different person.

And I would think to myself,

If you were this person all the time,

We would not be here.

But you're not the same person in front of the therapist.

And it was maddening.

I would think if you spoke to me the way you do when my mother isn't present,

Then my mother would understand what I'm dealing with.

But as a codependent person,

I kept things to myself.

I was felt that there was something wrong with me.

I was weak.

If I shared with my family what I was feeling,

I grew up with them calling me crazy,

Telling me that I just wanted attention.

No one should listen to me.

I was called all sorts of names growing up.

I had this fear about telling my family about the truth.

So it really was the perfect storm.

And in my opinion,

This was exploited by the person that I was married to.

He knew this.

He knew that I didn't talk to my mother.

He knew that my mother felt the way she felt about me.

It was exploited.

People on the outside of this dynamic,

People that you know,

People that are not learning about narcissism and or codependency,

Don't understand.

When you come to them and you tell them,

This is what I'm dealing with,

I can't trust this person or this person has multiple personalities,

It seems like.

Like when you're around,

They seem so kind and considerate.

They get me a cup of tea.

When there is no more audience,

This is all different.

This person doesn't help me in the house.

This person is highly dismissive,

Passive aggressive,

Condescending,

Devalues me,

Takes no accountability,

Twists the story,

Gaslights me and I feel like I'm going crazy.

They don't understand it.

Rational people,

When they're listening to someone who is highly narcissistic,

Who is overly dramatic,

Who has an all or nothing mindset,

They're not understanding that this is the result of perhaps narcissism and or maybe even a personality disorder.

They don't get it.

When you go to try to explain what's happening,

They don't understand it.

Now you come oftentimes,

It depends on how far you've gone down the relationship dynamic with someone who's highly narcissistic because if you stay in this relationship long enough,

You might end up like I did,

Like having a nervous breakdown,

Like losing it.

Like you can't even control yourself anymore.

Like you feel like this person is literally trying to drive you crazy and the people that you love the most aren't seeing it.

So it's this consistent and chronic invalidation,

Not only from the person who is thriving in this situation,

In this example,

Someone who's more narcissistic,

But also the friends and the family who you haven't told the truth to.

If you don't have a support system and you are consistently invalidated,

You could feel like you're losing your mind.

I had someone recently send me a message and my heart broke for this person because she sent me a message saying basically that she's losing herself to this person.

She has lost her entire self.

She can't think,

She can't eat,

She can't sleep.

This person is so erratic and she's constantly defending herself against him and towards him and you can hear it in her voice.

There's like nothing left.

It's just so sad.

If you stay in this relationship long enough,

Unfortunately you can become completely depleted.

You can suffer from depression,

Anxiety,

Self-doubt,

Rumination.

I mean really serious health issues as well because of chronic stress.

And when you go and talk to someone about what's going on and the narcissist is calm in that situation,

Who do you think that the people are going to think is the problem?

You.

If the narcissist,

However,

Is highly dramatic and if the narcissist gets out of control in front of your family and friends and you are still relatively calm,

It might be early in your relationship where you're still able to hold it together.

You're just trying to figure out this person.

A rational logical person will look at the way a narcissist is behaving and think there must be a reason that this person is so upset and they won't always understand that there's something deeper going on.

So why is it important to know that information?

Well,

I think it's important for us to realize that we need to be able to emotionally regulate our own emotion.

We don't want a narcissist or the weather or anyone to be able to control what we think and what we feel,

Especially about ourselves.

So it's a huge,

Huge wake up call when we realize that we've been at the target of someone else's narcissism and we feel like our emotions are on edge.

I think it's a huge wake up call for us to peel back what we're focusing on.

I rely on the philosophy of I'm going to focus on what I can control only on what I can control and let the rest go.

That means I'm going to accept what this narcissist thinks about me.

I'm going to accept the smear campaign because I really can't do anything about it anyway.

And if anything is going to drive a narcissist crazy,

It's that philosophy.

You do you boo.

You think what you want,

You feel what you want and I'm going to worry about what I think about myself.

I'm going to worry about what I feel about myself and I'm not going to be so invested in worrying about what you think.

Because when you put your sense of self and your sense of worthiness in the hands of another person,

Especially someone with high narcissism,

You have given over the keys of your kingdom to someone else.

They are free to do what they want with your soul,

With your mind and your body.

So you can't give the keys of your soul over to someone else anymore.

You just can't.

Relying on the philosophy of I'm going to worry about myself is very,

Very critical.

I'm going to worry about my emotions.

Very,

Very critical.

I'm going to navigate and mitigate my own emotions.

So it's a big wake up call.

We have to take care of our emotions.

We have to increase our level of self knowledge.

We have to know thyself.

That has to be our goal.

When we are highly codependent,

We know the narcissist.

We know our mother,

But we don't know the self.

It's important that we recognize the pitfalls in these relationships and do what we can to take back the reins of power and control for our own life.

I think it's important to recognize that people in our lives that are black and white,

All or nothing,

Blame game,

People that take no responsibility,

I call them the year,

But 12 year old,

Ever take a 12 year old to a toy store?

He wants everything.

When you tell him we're here to buy Sam a birthday gift for his 12 year old birthday party,

You hear the 12 year old boy say,

Yeah,

But I want this and yeah,

But I got a 75 on that test.

I didn't fail.

Yeah,

But it just never ends.

The mom is not heard in that situation or the dad is not heard.

Someone with high narcissistic traits just wants their way.

Now when we identify or we recognize we're in that relationship,

It's really important that we notice where this person is going with their emotions.

It's important that we understand that when we're dealing with someone who is over emotional,

Someone who blames everyone else for why they are the way they are,

That is your wake up call to be more in control over your emotions.

The last thing that you want to do is tell someone that you think that they have a personality disorder because they're only going to become more defensive.

That's going to trigger their fear of vulnerability.

It's going to cause them to want to blame you for anything that you say.

What's not helpful when someone like this is getting really emotional,

It's time for you to become less emotional and more logical and more reasonable.

It's time for you to really,

Really pull back.

Also very important to recognize that there are lots of rational people out there in the world that will listen to a narcissist and think there must be a reason he or she is saying this.

I've gone through a number of smear campaigns and the one thing that stands out in my head all the time,

There are a number of things,

But I'll never forget the time where my ex called my mom after he started an argument with me over him threatening to stop paying the mortgage because we were separated at the time,

Threatening to throw me and the kids out of the house,

Threatening to stop paying all the bills,

Which would reduce my credit score so I'd never be able to get back on my feet.

Left that house,

Called my mom and told her that I had threatened to hurt myself,

Which never happened.

I found out about this maybe a year later and so my mom didn't even call me.

This happens in real life when you're dealing with people who aren't the healthiest and people who need to maintain dominance and control.

They will make up stories.

They will exaggerate stories that never even happened.

So did we have an argument?

Sure.

Did those words come out of my mouth?

Absolutely not.

Did he forget to tell her why we were arguing?

Absolutely.

In her head,

My mom's head,

Who looks like the crazy person?

I do.

If this is your dynamic,

There's not much that you can do about that and it took me a long time for me to recognize that my power was not in knocking on every door.

In my neighborhood,

Trying to clear up the lies and the fabrications,

The exaggeration.

My power was not in trying to convince my mother that this person was wrong.

That was not where my power lied.

My power lied in accepting what I could not control.

And I can tell you that if you adopt this philosophy,

If you adopt this idea that what matters most is what you think about you,

Not what someone who has high narcissistic traits thinks about you.

Not important.

When you're dealing with someone who has high narcissistic traits and or you're dealing with someone who has narcissism,

They have a distorted vision of you anyway.

You're never going to be able to live up to the distortion that they have inside their head of you.

They need to idealize you when you first meet them.

Not for you because it makes them feel good about them.

And when you prove to be a very normal person and maybe forget to bring the milk home after work,

It's seen as an attack.

And now in their head,

They see a bad quality in you.

And in their mind,

You're not worthy of their love and affection.

So they've got to put you down even further.

They've got to discard you.

They've got to devalue you.

They also have to blame you for why they're doing what they're doing also.

It is such a mess.

It is such a roller coaster.

And it is completely toxic.

And I find that the more we educate people,

The more we understand the dynamics,

The easier it is for us to accept when we've got our tail caught in the trap of narcissism with someone else.

And we adopt philosophies and ideas that really help us escape with as little emotional damage as possible.

And my prayer is that as you heal,

You recognize that your emotions are meant for you to be able to manage.

And the less narcissistic people that you have in your life,

The easier it will be for you to manage your emotions.

Namaste everybody.

Until next time.

Bye for now.

Reviews

Great reminder to not believe everyone when they complain and to disconnect yourself from those who smear your reputation. The talk could have tightened a bit by not repeating the same thought over and over. Twice is enough to hear that the narcissist can seem to make a valid point to outside observers. Otherwise, thank you, Lisa.

Very good

Always listen to Lisa A 👍💪🏼

Keep all your talks coming- I learn from each and every one 🙏🙏🙏

Absolutely true! Thanks again for sharing this with us
Namaste 🙏