Navigating Relationships And Breakups

Almost all of us will experience a breakup (or several) in our lifetime. Join Leah Guy and renowned therapist, author, and thought leader John Kim, also known as The Angry Therapist, for a conversation on how to navigate breakups with intention and integrity. Whether you're still grieving a past relationship, considering leaving one that no longer serves you, or simply curious about relationship dynamics and psychology, this will be a good listen for you.

Transcript

Tell us about this last book because you're married and yet you're writing about being single on purpose was one of your bestsellers and now breakup on purpose.

This book came from me working with plants and realizing that when it comes to healing from a breakup,

There's no one fits all.

And I realized we go through so many different types of breakups and we've never talked about all the different types of breakups.

We have the love languages,

We have all these other books about the five this,

The four that,

And there are actually different types of breakups and depending on what you're going through,

There's going to be a different prescription.

So the book hangs on the eight different types of breakups that we all grow through.

And the message of the book is that your breakup can be actually a catalyst for your growth.

I want to tell you,

John,

This is not common for me,

Even for a book that I love.

I read every word of your book.

Oh,

Thank you,

Everyone.

You know,

Most,

Most of the podcasts that I do,

No one has read the books,

No one has the time.

So they just kind of pulled it up and then we just talked about something entirely different.

Yeah,

Well,

You know,

I kind of went through a breakup last year,

But this is my work.

This is my life as well.

I'm constantly working with clients and groups,

And I wanted to see your take and also just how you and I resonate so much on a lot of these ideas and so forth.

So I really enjoyed it.

Your your writing is it's refreshing because it's simple and practical.

And that's the way I write as well.

And I just think,

You know,

It gets to the point and every level,

Street level just.

Yeah.

Simple.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yeah,

It's good.

So whether you're going through a breakup or planning to break up or if you've ever broken up in the past,

This is a great book to read because you can also work through some of your older stuff,

Patterns perhaps,

Or unresolved grief or pain,

Feeling rejected,

Self-worth stuff with this book.

Yeah.

Lots of residue.

We all carry some kind of breakup residue from our relationships.

OK,

So one of the ways that you talk about relationships that are ending is that that they have simply expired.

And I really love that because it shifts the perspective of like something's gone wrong,

Something's wrong with me.

You know,

They did something to just simply that that perspective that maybe it's just complete.

Maybe it's just,

You know,

The expiration date has been met.

Yeah.

And when I think of soul contracts or just like,

You know,

That kind of thing,

It just really resonated with me.

Yeah.

And maybe because you see life through a spiritual lens,

That that term helped me a lot with my divorce,

Because the word breakup feels very,

You know,

Like just rupture of this big,

Tragic event,

Catastrophic.

But the word expiration,

There's acceptance in that there's peace.

There are also people that don't like it because you're comparing your relationship or marriage to milk.

It's like I was on I was on Armchair Expert once and I remember Dax Shepard was like,

I don't know if I like that.

We didn't get into it because we start talking about something else.

But I was very curious to see why,

Why,

Why he didn't like that.

We never got there.

But I think there are a lot of people who don't like the term that your relationship has expired.

But it has helped me tremendously.

It makes me believe that it wasn't meant to go a day further or end the day sooner.

But also,

It shouldn't be an excuse to not work on on the relationship.

You know,

I'm saying it's right.

Yeah.

Oh,

It's getting hard.

It's expired.

I'm out.

Right.

Starting to smell sour.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It shouldn't be used as an exit door.

Well,

I think of it,

Too,

Like the way I speak of it is an energetic match.

And I truly believe when we're energetically mismatched with someone,

No matter what we do,

It's not going to work or it's going to it's just going to be like a form of self-torture.

And we are,

You know,

Our energy shifts all the time and our life changes all the time.

And we have so much control over that.

But it's a similar kind of thing,

Like,

You know,

There is acceptance of that,

Of kind of releasing blame or guilt either direction and just acknowledging,

OK,

We've come as far as we can come now.

Do you believe I don't believe love expires.

Do you believe love expires?

I think love is kind of.

No,

I think love is formless and endless,

Infinite.

When you say that,

Did you say energies match and align and don't?

Do you think that they're all there?

So if they match,

Is it a constant or do you think that we kind of touch and go like some days we don't?

I think it fluxes a lot.

Yeah.

And I think that we can experience what might feel like a match,

What we might call like the trauma bonding or the polar opposites,

You know,

Attracting.

It feels like a match,

But that's when we're kind of connected to work on or see ourselves,

You know,

Have the mirror and work on our stuff.

But there's got to be some kind of alignment.

And then sometimes,

I mean,

I'm sure you've seen this with people.

There's maybe one person in the partnership that is doing a lot of work on themselves or having awakenings or healings from their past and so forth.

And maybe the other person doesn't.

And then what happens?

You know,

That person has the opportunity to understand and they don't have to get on the same bandwagon.

But as you call in the book,

You know,

There starts the drift,

Perhaps.

Right.

Yeah.

And I think it's OK because we are always changing and growing.

It's like when people have friends from,

Say,

High school and they had this expectation that you're supposed to be friends forever based on history.

And no,

It's OK if you're not friends forever.

You know,

I do love the loyalty aspect.

I think it's more predominant in the East Coast and West Coast.

But history alone,

I say,

Isn't enough for friendship because people change.

I think also in relationships,

You can be aligned and then you can grow and also not be aligned,

Just part of the human experience.

Yeah.

Well,

Speaking of that,

I also loved what you said in the book about friendships meaning much more to you now than in your younger days.

And in some ways,

Friendships are it's it's a hard loss when when we,

You know,

Separate or have space or terminate a friendship.

It's like a slow burn versus this maybe deep heartache that we feel in a love relationship.

But it's still.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Challenging.

I learned this lesson through my current partner because she values friendships so much when I thought romantic love,

Because I'm a kind of a hopeless romantic,

I thought love meant friends are secondary.

Who cares?

You know,

You have your person.

That person is everything.

Friends are extra.

And then,

You know,

After my divorce,

I realized,

Oh,

Well,

If the relationship doesn't work out,

Then you have no friends.

But these days,

Realizing that the contribution to the relationship is that you need your own life and your own friends and your own,

You know,

Hobbies,

Passion.

You're trying to come to the relationship as a kind of a more whole,

Complete person.

So,

Yes,

Of course,

You should have your own friends.

Yeah.

OK,

So another thing that you mentioned that no one got away.

Yeah.

The one that the one that got away,

I think it can be a dangerous or damaging term.

Tell us about that.

What do you what do you mean?

Well,

If you feel that someone got away,

Then that means the person in front of you may not be the one,

You know,

It may mean that this this person that got away,

That's the person I'm really supposed to be with.

So it can it can keep you always kind of looking over the fence or amplifying things that may be,

You know,

The disconnection in the relationship,

But really exaggerating them because deep inside you believe that someone else is meant for you,

You know,

So like the whole idea of the one that got away or the whole idea of the one.

I always say the one is the one in front of you,

You know,

If not,

If you don't believe that,

Then you're going to be drifting.

You're going to be wondering,

You're going to be thinking,

Am I with the right person like constantly?

I know.

And also,

If we have that belief,

Then it's like so much of our energy that we put into this one person,

Like they hold so much power over us,

Like they're the only one.

And it's wow.

Yeah.

Billions of us on the planet.

Yeah.

To me,

I wonder.

I'm just having this thought now,

But I'm wondering if that that belief or that notion to do that is kind of tied to whatever part of us,

Like our core wounds and things that we're feeling connected with or safe from or whatever with this one person that we're not willing to see all the other people that could help us grow or see life differently or what have you know,

Maybe it's just such a tunnel vision kind of thing that feels somehow anchored and safe.

But it's it's a trap,

I think.

It is a trap.

And I think we're meant to be with people sometimes that we may not initially even be attracted to,

Or maybe some people who don't kind of make sense or people who are not our type,

Because all these type of connections are going to stretch you.

They're going to make you grow.

I don't think we should just go to someone who knocks your socks off or you have a certain type.

And that's the only kind of person you date,

Because I feel like there's less stretch in there.

Yeah,

Well,

I know.

So I want to sidebar just for this book and your last couple,

I believe,

Are all focused on intimate relationships,

Primary relationships.

Now,

You're a general therapist.

General may not be the right word,

But generic.

I'm a generic.

I mean,

Would you consider yourself a love specialist under the field of therapy?

Is that what you primarily do with couples?

I think because I started talking about love because I was going through a breakup divorce,

But I'm a licensed therapist.

I'm a licensed marriage family therapist on paper.

But I do everything from men's work to divorce,

To retreats.

Yeah.

I mean,

I talk a lot about love.

I do.

But I wouldn't consider myself like a love like a love coach or a love therapist.

I'm curious in your work how much of the other stuff comes up,

How much of like,

You know,

Trauma and ancestral work and family dynamics and that kind of thing come up in your work.

It always comes up because it's baked in to everyone in their story.

You know what I think?

If you were to put a hat on me,

It would be relationships,

Including the relationship with yourself.

So more than just love,

It's building a relationship,

A healthy relationship with yourself and obviously with someone else.

Why do you think people are so resistant to that?

To building a healthy relationship?

Yeah.

With himself.

Well,

First,

I think we don't know how.

Who teaches us?

You know,

It's very trial and error.

Usually you start working on yourself when you've lost something.

So whether that's a marriage or custody or a job,

It's interesting.

I think as adults,

We spend most of our time trying to heal from the wounds that we went through as children.

Yeah,

Right.

And a lot of building a better relationship with ourselves is that healing a lot of childhood stuff that happened.

You know,

I love when I'm working with a client and they say something along these lines,

Like they have a small child and they say,

I feel so bad taking time away to go to the pottery class or whatever.

And I love this moment because it gives me an opportunity to say,

Please take advantage of this opportunity to teach your young person.

How healthy it is to take care of yourself,

To love yourself,

Because that's what that little one will see.

I mean,

Of course we can't abandon them,

But you know that that people,

Parents now especially,

Have such an opportunity to change the dynamic in the belief system that has been kind of cooked into these paradigms and so forth to show what it is to love themselves and have a life that can also include loving their child unconditionally and loving themselves.

Yeah.

And also,

If you don't take care of you,

Then what state are you engaging with the child and probably,

You know,

Half empty,

Exhausted,

Frustrated,

Short,

Taking care of yourself is going to make you bring a better version of yourself to the child.

So,

Yeah,

That's a great point.

Yeah,

I love that.

OK,

Something else I wrote down and I talk about these two things a lot.

Also,

Taking ownership and understanding,

If not,

Then releasing the victim mentality.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Especially one of the breakups is,

You know,

The you cheated slash left me for someone else.

Yes,

I wrote that one down.

Yeah.

The betrayal.

And of course,

On paper,

You can be a victim.

Someone may have done something to you.

We are victims in this world,

But the victim mindset makes us create our own prison.

Yeah.

So this idea of someone did something to me,

That's very powerless.

And so to get your power back,

You have to start taking ownership.

And no,

You may not have been the one that cheated,

But you were 50 percent of this relationship.

Even if it's just the fact that you picked this person,

You contributed something.

Maybe you didn't speak up.

Maybe you didn't,

You know,

Do like with this person,

But instead around this person.

But there are things that you contributed to the dynamic,

You know,

Even if the cheating had nothing to even do with you or the relationship.

A lot of times people cheat and it has more to do with their own stuff,

You know,

Whether it's addictions or wounds or,

You know,

Where they're at in their life.

And it's really hard to not take that personally.

But there is something there in that dynamic where there are probably things that you might have felt energy,

A disconnect that wasn't addressed.

And you were part of that,

Too.

Well,

You just finished the next question.

The next two questions I was going to ask is what what is one truth of people who cheat?

And one of those truths is that it's usually or often not about the other person.

It's often about them.

But it is so hard to take that,

Not take that personally as an example,

At least from my end.

I'm sure you have your examples,

But,

You know,

In relationships,

I come from kind of a codependent narcissist dynamic and learned to be very codependent in certain ways and how not to speak up.

You know,

I just learned it's OK.

Can I tolerate this?

If I can tolerate it,

I'll just tolerate it.

I'll just take that and just keep it moving because I don't want to have a blow up or whatever.

And the damage that that cause in relationships,

You know.

Yeah.

If I could go back and do anything differently,

It would probably be that just to learn how to speak and share and not withhold,

Thinking that I was somehow saving the day or,

You know,

At least saving us from a knockdown drag out fight.

Yeah.

And all those are valid on why you I mean,

In a way,

You're almost protecting yourself and the relationship.

But what you're doing is you're doing life around that person instead of with that person.

People are confrontational,

Controlling and possessive or doing life at that person.

And so I always think about,

Am I doing life with this person,

Which requires a self-expression,

Check-ins,

Vulnerability?

And also like,

You know,

Here's how I want to be touched or here's my preferences and desires and fantasies.

Or am I doing life around this person,

Meaning sweeping things under the rug,

Lots of eggshells,

Lots of not wanting to rock the boat.

And I think doing life with someone is difficult because it requires courage and vulnerability,

Transparency.

And these are things that we don't have a lot of reps and a lot of practice in because of the way we grow up.

Yeah,

It's it's really I mean,

It's like kind of a full time job to take ownership and look at your own stuff.

I have said,

You know,

I've had some clients and I'm probably I've thought this way before,

Too.

You know,

I don't want to tell them what I like or how to treat me or how to talk to me or how to touch me.

I want them to just know,

Because if they know,

Then they'll they're somehow the magic one,

You know,

Or they're they're that one.

Yeah.

And I'm like,

No,

You know,

That's so harsh.

How are they going to know?

It's so much easier for you to tell them and let them in on the game,

You know?

Yeah.

And I wonder how much of that definition is,

You know,

Formed from,

You know,

Movies and media and books and fantasies and,

You know,

Yeah,

Our idea of love instead of what love really is.

Yeah.

So what is love really to you?

Oh,

I think first love is a choice.

You know,

I think it's a daily choice.

And I don't I put more more weight on like than love because love is a choice,

But like needs to be earned.

If you love someone like we love our family members,

But we don't like all of our family members,

If you're with someone that you choose to love,

But you don't like,

That's a big problem.

That's not sustainable.

You know,

You have to like,

Respect,

Admire.

There's other words,

Because I think love is used so often that it's kind of it's it's lukewarm,

Can become kind of a bumper sticker.

Well,

While we're here,

If you would just give me a moment,

I would like to actually read a paragraph from John's book.

If you focus on the intention,

The expansion,

The possibilities,

The something greater that comes from two whole people growing together and less on the deal,

The agreement and all the what ifs,

You will be more accepting if the relationship doesn't feel honest to you and does end acceptance.

Our underestimated superpower will come from seeing love as a living,

Breathing,

Breathing thing rather than as something to be captured.

Acceptance doesn't live in matching rings and official ties.

It lives in pure presence.

Feeling free is what makes you love because love is fueled by the ability to choose daily,

One day at a time,

Not promising to love every day for the rest of your life.

That's not love.

That's a lie.

No one can promise you that.

It's not the commitment that bears fruit,

But the learning and sharing of life,

The ups and downs and sideways,

The collisions of the exchange.

It's so beautiful.

Like,

I almost started crying.

It's so beautiful.

Is that at the end,

Toward the end?

It's page two thirty six.

Yeah.

OK,

Perfect.

Yeah.

No,

It is beautiful.

You have obviously I mean,

I don't have to tell you,

You know,

This,

But for the listener,

Maybe you're unfamiliar,

John,

You haven't read his books.

You write so well.

And I know that you were a writer previously.

You wrote screenplays and so forth.

Right.

Or attempting to a different type of writer,

A different type of writer.

Yeah.

It's always been a passion of yours,

I guess.

It has.

And,

You know,

I carry this.

I was a failed writer,

Belief,

A false belief.

Now I believe that I was meant to be a screenwriter first just to lay tracks and write because I write very fast.

I used to spend eight,

Nine hours in coffee shops just writing,

Put my head down and write.

And I feel like that was kind of the training.

So when I started to get book deals for my self-help books,

The writing came so so easy for me because I was I wrote,

You know,

Tons of screenplays.

I was very visual.

So my writing then just kind of like rolled into self-help books.

And I just I write what I see.

Yeah,

You do an excellent job.

It's so descriptive.

I love your analogies.

I love the way you think.

And it does.

It comes out effortlessly and it's effortless to read.

And that's one reason I read every page.

OK,

So another thing I want to mention here,

And I didn't prep you with this,

But the hope circuit versus the fear circuit.

And I thought that was an interesting,

Just interesting kind of easy,

Quick conversation of obviously a lot of people know,

You know,

You're either in the state of fear,

You're in the state of love.

But thinking about these circuits that run in your brain and they can't be operating at the same time.

Right.

Yeah.

Most people,

Because of their stories,

The fear circuit is,

You know,

If like imagine a hose,

It's turned on full blast.

And so when when they are maneuvering via fear and I think because of their stories,

Self-protection,

A lot of us had to grow up fast,

Trauma,

You know,

A state of fire flight.

It's really hard to turn that down or off and insert hope.

You know,

I'm saying it's like almost like swimming up river.

It's hard to do.

But it is true that that fear and hope can't live in the same space like curiosity and judgment can't live in the same space.

And so we have to actively practice hope actively.

So our fear then becomes kinked.

You know,

We have to also actively practice curiosity.

Certain judgment becomes kinked.

And that is,

To me,

The daily practice.

And if you're not intentional about it,

It's not our default.

We don't just do that.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

I I'm not really a huge fan of like just,

You know,

Those cheesy affirmations and stuff like,

Yeah,

Right.

I mean,

I think affirmations can have their place,

Mantras,

All that kind of stuff.

They can have their place,

Even like gratitude,

Though.

And you mentioned in the book,

There's you know,

It's easy for us just go,

Oh,

Yeah,

I'm grateful for the light.

I'm grateful for the sun today.

I'm grateful for my body.

But when you really intentionally tune in to gratitude and that heart space that is connected to gratitude,

It is a game changer.

It changes.

To me,

It feels like it changes the chemistry inside my body.

Yeah.

You could almost feel it going down like whiskey.

Yeah.

If you if you do it where you are intentional and also you're not reading a list,

But you're just using your senses to really feel deep gratitude for something,

Something very specific.

You could feel it.

Yeah.

I think it changes your state.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I appreciate you putting that in the book.

So in these eight different types of breakups,

You mentioned one that someone cheated breakup.

There's the divorce breakup,

The one that I think,

You know,

I've kind of seen floating around words around the what are certain people calling it?

Well,

You call it the almost relationship.

Yeah.

I think some people call it like the situation ship or whatever.

Right.

Yeah.

I think people minimize this.

I think a lot of times we judge what a breakup should look like based on how long you're with someone.

And so if you were with someone,

Say,

You know,

For three months,

Your friends will say,

Well,

What's the big deal?

Why don't you just get over this person?

But it's more about the intensity than the time.

And so with the almost breakup,

Sometimes it's very difficult because it's the secondary loss.

Everything that you were thinking about,

You could have had or what could have been,

Especially when things were going good.

So if you're three months into a relationship and you guys are talking about,

You know,

Baby names and you guys have,

You know,

Design goals and house and you guys have this huge future that you're super excited about,

That you have talked about,

That loss is sometimes more difficult than the actual three months of the relationship.

And so the almost breakup sometimes can be crippling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially the almost relationship breakup,

The almost relationship.

Yeah.

The almost breakup,

That can be crippling,

Too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That sends you into that other type of relationship,

Which I've had the relationship breakup that never really ends.

It just you just kind of keep going,

Break up and then come back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it can be more of a trauma bond.

Yeah.

And I'm sure it probably is.

And it's exhausting.

You know,

Something I just thought about when we were sitting here talking is that low,

Such low amount of people that will never experience a breakup.

Now,

These would only be two types of people,

I think.

Well,

No,

Three.

So a person who is never in a relationship.

Oh,

Like like never really fully commits.

Yeah.

Never.

Yeah.

So never,

Never.

Or a person who,

You know,

Married their childhood sweetheart.

And they were that that couple that we read about in People magazine.

They died together in each other's arms when they were 90 years old.

Or I guess a widow wouldn't necessarily a widow that didn't get into another relationship if they if they lost somebody,

They wouldn't necessarily experience a breakup.

Right.

They would experience loss and grief.

Right.

But yeah,

But but they could still,

You know,

I always say that after a relationship expires,

So whether that is death or a breakup,

There's always growth soil and it's rich.

There's always a period of and I think it also calcifies,

Meaning there's a period of time,

There's a window where you start reflecting on how you showed up,

Your peace in this,

You know,

Your patterns,

Your wounds,

You start redefining love,

Like all of this stuff that's really valuable for the next one.

And if you don't look at all that and you try to find someone else to love very fast,

That's when it calcifies,

Because when you go into another relationship,

You're going into another dynamic.

Right.

And so you're 50 percent of that.

It's very hard to to then just grow and expand.

Now you're part of something else that's greater than than its parts.

There's so many.

I mean,

OK,

So how many people do you think enter into a new relationship and carry with them the same exact mentality,

Thoughts,

Feelings,

Etc.

,

From their past relationship?

Do you think that's more common than not?

I think it is because it takes courage and patience and sometimes tears.

It takes a lot of rolling up your sleeves to not be with someone else,

To be alone,

To sit in your own bathwater,

To find,

You know,

Find yourself,

As they say,

That that's hard to be single on purpose.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's you know,

I was single for five years and and I'll be honest,

I wasn't doing it on purpose because I was lonely and I was trying to I just no one was interested in me.

So I spent a lot of time,

You know,

Riding my motorcycle and sitting alone in diners and being with myself and learning to like myself,

Which was a good thing.

It was a blessing in disguise.

Well,

I'm a few years older than you.

I think I'm 52 and I'm currently single right now.

And I have to say,

I am in love with myself,

My life,

Everything in a way that I don't think I've ever experienced ever.

And why is that?

What is happening or is it a mindset or what's happening in your life for you to feel this way about you?

I think it's a culmination of years of work and therapy and understanding,

Breaking patterns,

Like consciously trying to break patterns.

And particularly in the past 12 months,

I would say just complete dedication.

And it reminded me like you sharing in your book and certainly a complete dedication to what would what do I really need right now?

What would it look like to be kind to myself right now?

What what do what would I find pleasure,

Enjoyment with right now?

How can I take better care of myself right now?

How can I reparent myself better right now?

And all of that.

Yeah,

I love going to bed.

I love waking up.

I love having meals.

There is not there's no resistance in me.

I mean,

To the point where I'm kind of wondering,

I wonder if I'll be able to be in a relationship again.

You know,

Yeah,

I think so.

But it's it's really it is hard.

It's hard to be,

You know,

Single,

I guess.

And I think it's such a prime opportunity for people to.

Yeah.

Thank you for sharing that.

I think many people need to hear that because society has told us that we are less than unless we're partner.

You know,

A big thing that's happening is people being self-partnered,

People saying,

I actually don't want a relationship.

I love what's happening now.

You know,

It sounds like you're kind of there.

Yeah.

I was going to ask you about that earlier.

If you see a trend of people kind of consciously choosing themselves or choosing to remain single for an extended period of time,

If not forever,

I think I heard somewhere there's less marriages or less coupling.

So,

I mean,

I'm near New York City here.

So it seems like everybody's single in New York.

But I don't know what the pulse is outside of here.

There's a lot happening.

Yes,

Some of that.

But there's also,

I think,

First time ever monogamy being on trial,

People even questioning if that's what they want.

And so I think the big word is customization.

There is no like right way anymore.

There's what works for you,

You know.

So whether it is I want to be single or maybe it's you want to have an open relationship or poly or whatever,

We don't have to just paint with the primary colors anymore.

We have the whole 45 crayons set and there's a lot less judgment.

And I think it's partly generational,

You know,

The Gen Z and millennials kind of like millennials starting this and being curious.

And now Gen Z being more just fluid with everything and peeling labels.

You know,

There's a lot of that happening.

I'm 51.

So,

You know,

I grew up with pagers and I grew up before any of this.

And so it's such a different world now.

Yeah.

So are you saying or do you believe people can have successful,

Healthy relationships in the poly world,

In the non monogamy world?

There's even a EU or I don't I don't know all the terms.

I'm not that with it.

There's something new every day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't I think you could have a successful relationship.

I don't think it has a relationship has to be monogamous for it to be successful.

I think it has to be for the right reason.

I think a lot of people open their relationship because they're trying to get something that that is missing in their current relationship.

I don't think that's the way to do it.

I think it's having a solid foundation and the couple wanting to now explore and be be poly or or open while the relationship has a solid foundation.

I think that could work because now they're exploring together as opposed to here's what's missing.

Let's find it in someone else kind of thing.

Right.

Yeah.

So there's also a lot of that happening and that not working.

That's interesting.

Well,

John,

I appreciate your time so much.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me and creating this dialogue.