The Interview: Sas Carey ~ Mongolian Dreams & Shamanic Magic

Sas Carey, my guest this week, is an intrepid world traveler! From the moment she stepped off the plane and onto Mongolia's wild soil, her heart was forever captured by the people as well as the beauty of the land. Sas has made it her life's work to document the nomads as well as the reindeer herders and their way of life, carefully respecting all that she encounters. She's created multiple documentary films as well as books, and all record a way of life that is rapidly disappearing.

Transcript

Hello all my lovelies and welcome back to another episode of the podcast.

This week my guest is truly formidable and she tells so many stories this week.

Honestly it kind of defies description.

I can't even encapsulate this human being in one little intro like this but I'm going to read a little bit from her website so you know what you're in for.

And so from her website it says in 1994 Sass Carey RN traveled for the first time to Mongolia where she discovered her life's passion working with the nomadic people who inhabit the rugged landscape of that area.

Drawing on her nursing background she was first led to work with them in the area of health care which was severely lacking.

So she's worked with the nomads and the reindeer herders for over two decades and has a very close relationship with them.

She founded Nomadic Care in 2010 as a nonprofit in order to gather support and resources so she could continue her work in health care and documentation.

Because she has she's created multiple documentary films about different aspects of the nomadic and reindeer herders lives but she's also written multiple books about them about their lives about their traditions and especially about their shamanic practitioners.

Sass shares multiple stories about those travels and those encounters with the nomads and with the reindeer herders and this episode is so profound and so interesting and I just was sitting on the edge of my seat while having my conversation with her.

So without further ado here is Sass Carey and my interview and conversation about her travels in Mongolia.

I had that happen once somebody a shaman once sang my song for me.

It was I didn't know it was my song.

He sang it and I was just crying and he then he said I said that was the most beautiful song I ever heard and he said that's because it's your song.

I was like oh.

How do you self-describe?

The most important thing is that I'm a spirit in a human body you know I mean that's kind of cliche but but you know I believe you come in here you come in here and you're you have certain things that you're made to do.

You can either ignore them or listen carefully to your meditation and do them.

So I've tried to do them and it's so it's just one miracle after another because once you have that contract with the spirit the spirit takes care of you.

I really feel taken care of and I just keep doing these crazy things like going to Mongolia.

Okay whatever you want.

I mean that was something I just found so intriguing and profound on your website and I am a huge fan of adventure and kind of seeing the edge of the cliff and then taking a step off and you know crossing fingers and toes that you'll be you'll be taking care of and things will end up okay and and on your website you know you you talk about Mongolia and the adventures and work that you've done there.

How did that even come about?

How was that a possibility in your world?

That's it's just unbelievable really when I think back at it.

You know I I did I became a Quaker 60 years ago and so I learned to listen carefully to the inner voice and the inner voice and also to other people you know when other people say something and listening to them and so one day I was doing an energy healing on a friend of mine and she said you know I just read this book Encounters with Qi by David Eisenberg from Harvard and I think you should go to China because you've been working with energy for all these years and I said I read that book it's very interesting isn't it and she said yes I think you should go to China and I said I don't have any money and she said well how many sessions would it be and we traded seven years of energy healing and I got to go to China and Mongolia yeah that's how it happened I know it's just unbelievable so so first I went to China and we went touring you know with the American I was with the American Holistic Nurses Association and then which was also guided and then we went to Mongolia for a week I stepped off this plane it didn't have tarmac yet it was just ground I stepped on the ground and I the energy came up through my feet like and I knew something was up and I just totally fell in love with it so the next thing that happened was that at that trip we were touring a traditional medicine center and the it came to me like in Quaker meeting in Quaker meeting my heart starts pounding and then I'm supposed to speak and I said to this doctor who was a traditional medicine doctor and a you know Soviet trained in western medicine and a traditional Mongolian medicine doctor I said would you take an American disciple I mean I don't talk like that you know I mean and he said yes so the next year I went and one of my friends who was on the first tour too went with me and we became the first two westerners to be trained in traditional Mongolian medicine It's an amazing system and at first I thought oh yeah I can bring it into western medicine it's its own whole piece they're two separate things you can use both but you can't mix them because it's it comes from a totally different direction like western medicine believes in healing the part of the body that's sick okay and and if that happens then the whole body will heal eastern medicine believes you take care of the whole body and then the little part that's off balance will will heal so that's why you can use both but you can't say oh I'll take that medicine and use it with western medicine so um we had three and a half months of sitting every day with this doctor oh the two of us it was it was outrageous you know I really had no clue what was going on I I just I couldn't wrap myself around it it was just I thought maybe I'm getting this by osmosis I mean the spirit told me to come here you know we just sat every day and took notes I have like a whole big notebook of of every word he said you know and so then we went out to the countryside with him to learn about herbs and medicines and um and people came from all around for him to to do healing on him and to do treatments because he he was this really well-known doctor Dr.

Boltzahin yeah and so I saw this these orts or gares these gares and people living in them with the horses and you know just the lifestyle and I thought this looks like a movie set I can't believe it's happening today so one of the next leadings I got we call leadings callings in Quaker so one of the next leadings I got was to make movies make a movie about Mongolia and Mongolian women my first movie is Gobi Women's Song and the reason that came through in meditation was I found out they use five liters of water a day for everything that's like a gallon and a quart for drinking cooking cleaning washing everything and that was coming to me in the meditation like we are not living this is sustainable life in the U.

S.

You know in fact that was in the 90s one flush of the toilet was way more than they these people used in one day so I I thought oh I should make a movie or I said you should make a movie I had no idea how to make a movie I've taken pictures you know but I got a few names from people because I wanted it to be a woman's movie with woman team crew I called I called this one woman who was supposed to be a translator and she said well I can't really translate but my my boyfriend is an American and he he's from New York and he's a camera person and he might be willing to join you he's here to he's here to make another other movie and I got got on the phone with him and he said well I'm a guy but I don't think that'll get in the way and he was so fabulous I mean he taught me so much about making a movie and we went down to the Gobi for 10 days so then the next thing was I needed a translator and I remembered this woman I had met the year before and I called her and I said I mean just as I was going to bed I thought oh yeah and I called her and she said well I can't go because I'm really busy but my daughter could go with you her daughter was 19 years old I knew her daughter her name was Haluna and she she spoke great English because she had been a student in New Hampshire for a year and um at present she works at the U.

S.

Embassy I mean she's fabulous you know so she came with us she was 19 years old so we we met these you know people friends of friends that introduced us to everybody they introduced us to the doctor and I okay the the zoom director that means the county director gave us five names of women that we could interview in the countryside who were nomadic herders and who were single women and so we we used all those women women to and then we met the doctor in the hospital the local hospital and she said oh well we have births here and there's a woman right now living in the birth center and I said well could we meet her and they said yeah sure so we go over and meet her she's a nomadic herder she this is her third child she spends a whole day in her life every day of her life milking horses milking rain um milking goats and and she okay that was great um I said what okay we we made a connection because every day I would talk to her then I said would you be willing to let us come to your birth she said yes so the birth is on the first movie her birth which is Gobi women's song I mean of course you have to I mean that's what we do we can give birth you know that's what makes one thing that makes us really unique you know I really had no idea how to make a movie but it happened I just said I love that because you know there's a few different pieces there of having this trip and and going on this trip which is facilitated by someone really unexpectedly and kind of you know I'm sure your jaw just dropped and you thought what and then um to go out and you know get all this knowledge also from this traditional doctor that you didn't expect you know it's like when you left for China and you left for this trip there was no idea of what would be entering into your life and I think that's what's so exciting and really fabulous about taking a chance and stepping out your front door and going on the adventure oh my gosh Robert Frost said you know the road less traveled and that road has made all the difference I'm just really intrigued before we go too much further you have referenced that you know you do this energy work and that you work on people and you have these leadings so how did that come about what did you have this as a child or or how did this surface this ability or this this idea that you wanted to heal people um I was I went to a psychic in 1974 to ask about a family situation and the first thing she said was you're a healer I didn't know what a healer was and so I just started looking into what a healer might be and she said I was going to start an Edgar Cayce study group which is yeah so we did that for three years every week we did um his the name of his book is uh Search for God which I don't usually use the word God because you know it doesn't feel comfortable to me I grew up as a congregational person and now I'm Quaker and we I say spirit so anyway um but we we did a lot of exercises and different kind of psychic things and I also had a workshop with someone about I had therapeutic touch workshop and I had one a couple other workshops but mostly it was all about listening and following what message I get and the reason I like to use this as an example is because everybody's life is rich when they listen and do what they're here for and um the time it was tested the most was when I had I later started working with the Duha reindeer herders in the northern part of Mongolia in the taiga had to ride a horse eight hours and didn't know how to ride I was never so scared in my entire life I was just terrified and I just kept envisioning my Quaker meeting all my friends everybody the spirit everything holding me to keep me alive I was just you know my knees kept bumping into trees and I didn't know how to lead the horse I didn't know how to do anything really I was just up there okay you want me to ride a horse eight hours okay sure but whoa that was a was a tough one yeah and I got so connected to the reindeer herders um there are 300 uh in this this group is called the Duha reindeer herders they came from Tuva and um they still live the way their ancestors lived they live or or tipi Siberian tipi it's 40 below sometimes in the winter and they have like canvas between them and the outside and I just I just fell in love with those people and um started a lot of other projects from that first of all we discovered they had bleeding gums so we took started taking them vitamin c and we took them each one a year year supply of vitamin c since uh 2003 up till now 2024 that's a long time and then we started taking hygiene kids and you know other things and because I was there so often I went every year I went uh I went to Mongolia 20 times in 30 years and they they totally trust me and I could take a picture of anything and uh where they don't really like being photographed but so I've made um uh three movies up there in the taiga you know one in the Gobi which is in southern Mongolia and then one is uh in the north just about the border of Russia um and they they're just fabulous you know so the second one was ceremony about shamans I interviewed 15 shamans and went to about 15 ceremonies and just kind of put that together 15 different peoples and then the next one was called migration because I went back to the Gobi and met with the women who were in my movie and found out that none of them were nomads in that short time from 2001 to 2013 they had they weren't and I know this is why I was guided to do this whole project and the movies because people said that that way of life was at risk and you know so we wanted to get it uh documented and then I realized the reindeer herders were still migrating so I think it was 2014 I went up and I migrated with them that was a little a little challenging too I rode a reindeer for two days to the to the different you know to the summer camp yeah and uh I really like riding a reindeer better than a horse let me tell you I mean they're lower so when you fall you don't hurt as much and those kind of things you know so um that movie migration that movie is has now been is being shown on the mongolian international airline on the plane so that when people go to mongolia they get or come back from mongolia they see see the movie of the lifestyle of the nomads so that makes me feel so blessed I wanted to just ask you referenced early on um when you were speaking about growing up I think you said as a congregationalist yeah and then and then you came to quakerism and I'm so curious how did that happen and and also I think for my listeners it would be really interesting to hear you know what you referenced earlier which was getting your heart beating quickly and then speaking in the meetings I'd love to have more of an explanation of that okay sure so the first part is um it was during the vietnam war at the beginning of the vietnam war and this person I was marrying in 1964 he he didn't he was a congressional to begin with too and his some of the people in his church were on his draft board and he said how can they do that you know how can you fight and kill people if you're if you're a christian if you're congressional so he he found the quakers were pacifists and and he convinced me really pretty fast I mean makes a lot of sense so we both became quakers when we got married in 64 so um the second thing about how do you speak you know if you just get into that really deep place and you connect with a spirit that's why they're called quakers it's because they quake and that means there's something that's trying to come through and so for me my heart just starts like pounding like this and then I know I'm supposed to say something I hold back you know you hold back you wait like three times there are lots of little things like that but basically it's a body um indication that there's something that's trying to come through I I you know I'm nervous about speaking in front of people so I can't imagine being in a meeting and worshiping with a bunch of people and then feeling like I had to say something I don't know if I would have the guts to do it was that ever an issue for you oh yeah yeah but it really doesn't it's not a good thing to hold back it's just you learn it's just not a good thing to hold back you it's just you know it's part of what you're here for if you're it's just like everything else of doing what you're told to do that's one of the things you know you're you're actually you're holding out on somebody else who needs to hear it that's what I learned that is a good way to think about it thank you for that because I've really been um questioning voice and how to use voice with integrity and and authenticity and and what's real for my heart or true for my heart but also I really do think about the words I use are true path or right path and you know there is a sense that I've done all this before and it's like every time I live this life I have to find the path the right path where I get where I'm supposed to be so that I can show up for other people or organizations or even for myself in a way that that furthers the growth and the beauty in this universe and this you know in this reality and and so I think about that not I'm not obsessed with it but I do you know when I make a choice or I make a decision I say is this does this feel right like really what I say is um does it feel familiar is this something I've done before and then when I get that sense oh yes this is the road I've done this before I'm just like all right I guess I'm gonna do the same thing again but I don't feel bad about it I have a um a tattoo on my back that says Amor Fati which means to be in love with one's own fate and um I talked with Shabana about it that for quite a long time I was I was really really angry with the knowledge that you know that it felt like I'd lived this life before and that and that I was supposed to show up in certain places to help others or help the world or whatever and I got really resentful and angry about it because I also felt that if I didn't show up and help those other people I was going to get cancer it was like this is the way to do it but then underneath it I have um I aim to misbehave so it's it's meant to remind Amor Fati yes there are fated events that I'm supposed to show up but in between I can misbehave a little bit so free will and fates that's great I do think feel like I misbehave quite a bit but it's a good thing two thumbs up to the misbehaving so yeah yeah thanks for letting me um kind of talk on there a little bit um because it really was um I had this dream that was um really really powerful um I don't even know how long ago but it really disturbed it was disturbing because it was um it was so potent and so I mean I say it was also unwelcome like it really was unwelcome because I was like I don't want this knowledge and now you've like ruined everything and I mean it was short I was floating out in the universe and in front of me was pitch black but with stars it was like everything it was the void filled with everything and and I was just marveling at its beauty and this figure came on and said oh oh you think that's real hmm let me show you what's real and it reached down to the bottom and pulled the universe back and behind the universe was I again like you can't use words there there was it was like if my heart would have exploded but and to say that it was love is like the most ridiculous thing to ever suggest because it was more than that it was it was like all things it was everything it was every possibility every you know and um I woke up and it that was in my room my entire room was full of that energy and then I was like well this sucks because as time went on I realized that it was um this isn't real and that I'm stuck here and that I wanted to be in that place I didn't want to be here and there you know I always talk about this and I hope it's not upsetting for you followed like two years of me just being like I don't know what the point is of me being here because I don't want to at this point and by the way F off for giving me that information because you've totally like broken my heart and I'm really angry about it I mean I was so angry for so long and then I went to go see a an acupuncturist who also does a bunch of other healing and finally I told him what I was going through and he was like all right Kirsten I mean so pragmatic he's like all right all right well we're gonna you're not gonna commit suicide we're gonna figure this out and we're gonna fix it because you have work to do and I was like oh I hate you but it's it's like sometimes those revelations are very unwelcome and yes disturbing they're disturbing and they they are they can just be heartbreaking I guess heartbreaking is the only word I can use like that knowledge is not even now I'm like I don't like that knowledge because it's like it's a little bit like it's haunting me yeah so yeah that's my story that's one of my stories so you know all these people it's so interesting to me I mean I find it fascinating that there are all these people who now self-style as gurus and shamans in the United States or wherever you know and I always think to myself look like if you nobody who's real wants to be that that's like it's like you actively run away from being a guru or shaman because you know it's gonna like suck and it's gonna be lonely and it's gonna be horrible and um you know I don't I'm just like I mean that's part of your path I guess for them to self-proclaim that they're this but in reality this this um mantle I guess you could say is is not it's not fun and it's not supposed to be a party 24 7 it's actually horrible so I don't know if you feel the same way yeah it's I mean all the shamans I met I mean no one would ever say they were a shaman for one thing you know they would never if they said they were a shaman I would say you're okay I don't need to interview you because they don't say it you know they don't want it they've done everything to to not be that person but they don't have any choices yeah yeah I've interviewed a lot of people and and you know some young people like I remember sitting at a restaurant in the city of Ulaanbaatar with this young woman probably about 20 she said you know they've they've come to me they've told me I have to you know or the energy comes to me and I've they've told me I'm a shaman and I need to go and have this training whatever the that really hard stuff that they do and she said you know I really like to drink so I'm not going to do that maybe later but right now I'm just going to party you know and I thought interesting you know they have a different kind of concept of it in Mongolia because they're very familiar most people have many people have a shaman in the family who takes care of the family and so it's not it's not a wanted job really I mean I would say we need more people like that in the world to help us heal a collective level you know but I think um one of the most I don't know things little gremlins that I fight with too is hubris it's in in whatever so there's a difference between being proud of something you've accomplished and then um getting drunk with power and rampaging through the village um and it's it's a slippery slope and it's difficult but I really appreciate you saying that the shamans don't call themselves shamans I think that's a big never fine yeah I mean they might say I'm going to do a ceremony tonight but I don't think they even called a ceremony I'm going to do a something tonight I forgot what they call it but uh you know we're going to have a something tonight but they don't know they wouldn't say I'm a shaman and you can see it in my movie um ceremony it's on um Vimeo that's a movie that Shabana edited for me okay you know I'm so scared of watching it because I think I'm gonna have serious heartache about wanting to experience what you experienced um this will give you a little taste of it okay sharing it with you thank you thank I'm excited okay I I feel like I can be brave enough I feel like I can be brave it's pretty mild it's very mild um the beginning is talking about different aspects and then one person does a ceremony and then the next year we went back and we interviewed him and said okay what's happening here what's happening here what's happening now and we asked other shamans too like what's going on what oh he's coming in oh he's going out oh he's you know oh he just became a a wolf and you know like you really when you're at a ceremony you have no I'm not that culture you know so I have no idea what's going on but the other shamans even if they aren't of the same exact lineage or ethnic group they they know what's going on what was one of the more beautiful things you saw in Mongolia oh wow oh wow I think the way the community works there in East Taiga there are 11 families or 21 11 families I think there's 300 people all together in the East and West Taiga they're two separate groups and uh so they all live in tipis so when you ride the horse in first you see the reindeer which is just amazing and then you see all the tipis or orts on the against the mountains the mountains are beautiful the land is beautiful but then when you just stay there and hang out they just go from one or two of the other and like the men are out in the pasture nomadic being being herders with the animals and the women you know they're like they have a crank sewing machine and uh and they make things and they fix the drum and for the shaman or you know but they all work together and it's almost like it's like they all hear the same note I would say they're just so harmonious with each other I'm not saying they don't argue or get angry or you know all that kind of stuff but they they just are so connected and connected with their horses and reindeer also and the land you know the land according to them has spirits so this space this river has this spirit they have names for the river spirits and name for the mountain spirits and they're just everything is connected I think that's the thing that's most beautiful to me yes I think that is absolutely such a gorgeous way of being and to like to every day wake up live your day go to sleep dream just knowing that you're part and parcel you're like one cog in this gorgeous machinery of like the rivers can be your friends the clouds can be your friends I mean it's it's just a more I don't know it's a more gorgeous way of being frankly because who doesn't want to have a river who's a friend or a tree you know it's yeah it's just to feel that you are part of something that's so beautiful I think can be such a gorgeous thing for your heart and your soul to comprehend yeah and I think I opened this movie with uh ceremony it's funny we keep going back to that one but Sanja uh no Sanja I'm talking to him and he says the way you walk on the earth is how the spirits know who you are like as your feet touch the earth they know exactly who you are I think that's beautiful because just yesterday I went for a walk in the park and I brought a little bag and I pick it up garbage so I think I maybe got a few points yesterday I mean it's not entirely altruistic because my mom said why do you go to that park all the time and walk in that circle and I said that's why I pick up the garbage because it makes it more like a treasure hunt and it makes it more exciting plus I actually do have this thing about picking up garbage when I go places it's like this not an obsession close to it but I just think to myself you know I want why is anybody else picking up garbage and um it's I want to make this world more beautiful and if this is like a small way I can do it then I'm mother always did that my mother always picked up garbage wherever she walked yeah yeah it's it's like an easy act you know what I mean you still get your walk yes you know you're making your the world beautiful so um well I would love to hear any and all stories that you have to share about anything magical or miraculous you may have participated in or witnessed or or just embodied in your life I'd like to hear anything I have plenty of time so please don't feel rushed I'd like to hear whatever you have to share okay oh you know every single thing like the the um movie I've also written two books and it was the same thing just here it is I love that my latest book is called marrying Mongolia it's about how everything that I did like I was a hippie in the in the 60s and I lived in it I lived in a tent while we built a house on some land in the northeast kingdom of Vermont so we lived without electricity and running water and uh telephone then and I had a home birth in the house that we built so on and on you know it my whole life has been this way but it seems like everything that has happened and I've done so many different things like I've done pottery I've been a teacher I've been a nurse I've been a killer um all that stuff has fed into what I needed to do in Mongolia because it a lot those people are so holistic you know they're not breaking down when you live when you're a herder and nomadic herder you're not breaking down the parts you know you're not it's all connected that's what I said in the beginning the connection is so important and so I needed everything I need everything when I go there because everything you know they're used to everything being connected I don't know why I just got this vision of my first movie Gobi women's song we the second year I went to shoot that movie we went um into the people's um land where they lived and took care of the animals and it was like 100 degrees seriously no shade no nothing and they were making felt on the ground in the Gobi desert so they they would collect all these all this um felt all this um wool from the sheep and they would they had a piece of canvas underneath on the on the ground and they would each take a comp of put and put it down and pat it next to each other overlapping it was about as big as it was about 15 by 15 feet well big and the whole community was doing this then they pour water over it and pat it down more and then they put another piece of canvas on the top they rolled it up and tied it together so it was a big round thing about this big and they pulled it in back of a camel for a couple hours because for felt you need to have heat you need to have water and you need to have uh agitation and just watching them do that I could barely be there five minutes it was so hot but they did it it was great I mean I don't know why I just came up with that but that was just a a picture that I whoo just that picture of them putting it down just the men and the women at the whole community putting it down and and creating this puffy little thing and putting water on it and anyway yeah that's just sort of a an image that gives you a sense of how they work together.

I'm so curious when you were um shooting I'm only bringing this up because um are you familiar with Molly Domasomi?

No.

Okay he wrote this gorgeous book called Of Water and the Spirit it is just astonishing and he was I mean the short story is he was abducted when he was about six or seven from his village in Africa and raised by Jesuit priests and so he escaped when he was about 19 made his way back to the village on foot and they wouldn't accept him because he hadn't gone through the initiation and so he had to go through this initiation in which boys died because it was so rigorous and so he and he says in the in the book you know I'm going to try my he passed away last year he's like I'm going to try my hardest to explain what this initiation looked like in the places we went because they're not here they're not in this reality but yeah like words are not sufficient so it was it was he's written several books they're all gorgeous um but one of the things he talked about was before he was born the women when his mother was heavily pregnant and about to give birth to him within a few weeks they all went into the woods and they all started singing and the village the village women came up with his individual song of him and who he was and through that song kind of sang to the fetus and and let the fetus know who was going to be what the community was that was going to be receiving the baby and potentials for the baby's life who the baby could be which I thought was such a gorgeous and beautiful image and I thought oh my goodness every baby should be welcomed into the world in that way and so when you were talking about the movie you were making with the women did they engage in that same no um one one thing that happened was you know the Soviets kind of were had their thumb on Mongolia from 1920 to 1990 and when I was making the movie that Gobi women's song it was just 2000 so they were they were all brought up in the Soviet uh time and they had lost a lot of their culture um especially well the people in the Gobi had lost a lot of their culture but that's why I I was taking movies of up in the taiga because they they held on to their culture um I don't know if they did that when when I did it they didn't do it to the baby it was in a hospital but they were all women it was a woman doctor woman assistant woman nurse and us three of us translator and camera person to me and we were the ones that were there for the whole birth so yeah but that that's amazing I had that happen once somebody a shaman once sang my song for me it was I didn't know it was my song he sang it and I was just crying and he then he said I said that was the most beautiful song I ever heard and he said that's because it's your song I was like oh yeah yeah and I wanted to talk about singing too and um music you know I uh this happened in 2000 I was teaching spiritual readings and how to connect to the spirit and so every week I would just be in a place and people could come if they were interested I'm not I didn't have the same people or anything I just did whatever I just winged it because that's all there is to do anyway and so and so these three women came I had never met any of them and they all were in a very needy place in their lives and they said well can you do this for us every week and I said well I can't do it here I'm and you can come to my house but I'm not coming up to Burlington so they we started this thing and we did it for three years and it turned out that at one point one of them was kind of like choking like she couldn't speak and I put my hand on her neck and it turned out that she was supposed to let music through and all three of them were beautiful singers and they started singing it was like coming from heaven and they wrote and they sang songs I was just thinking I was just thinking about this last night I was telling my friend it ended up that over the years that we went to people who were ready to go and they were maybe in a coma ready to pass over and and we would just sing but it was kind of like toning or sometimes one of them would have a special message that was so beautiful for the person and it usually worked but here's a funny story my writing teacher who I just love she was the age of my mom and she was really sick and so I took my students and we all went into the hospital and we sang to her like that and there was another woman in her room who was also really sick and they were both you couldn't tell who if someone was going to leave you know so we sang this whole whole thing to marge this person and she ended up leaving the hospital and living another year but her roommate left I mean it's just amazing because you don't know I mean you're just not in control that's that's the thing I mean we're not in control here on the planet it's not our thing you know we're if we let it come through and do what we're supposed to do that's a whole different thing I wanted to ask I mean I would assume maybe I'm assuming too much but was it a very large honor to be able to attend those ceremonies as a white westerner you know they do it more now because they know they're going to make a little money from it but at that point yes it was a big honor like I went to Mongolia for let me see I went up to the taiga for five years before they invited me to to come to a ceremony and so I it's sort of like I had to know them a little bit because it really wasn't for me you know you know they were they're shamans for their family and and they're close people so the other is almost like a show if they do it for westerners they were usually doing it for some kind of healing purpose somebody that needed something or needed protection or their animals needed protection or they did it each season but to be allowed to go in that's a that's a big honor I remember one time a few years ago the son of one of the shamans that I used to know and and the nephew he's the now he's now the shaman and he's in his 20s we got to his place and he said well there's this other family this other tourist over here in that other uh orts who wants me to do a ceremony but I said I can't do it because it's not the right time of the month and I said okay I don't think you should do it if it's not the right time and he said oh no sass you've come so far we're gonna do it so he did a ceremony and you know they couldn't get me because you know something you said in the beginning about how you feel about shamanism just that you want to kind of understand it that's how I am I don't want I don't want them to do anything for me I don't want to ask them any questions I just want to see how someone else goes across the veil you know because I do that and you know I do reading spiritual readings and connect with people's higher selves and things like that I just wanted to see how how other people did that and I'm fascinated by it so every single shaman that I met I just thought that was that's what I was looking for they'd always say you don't have any questions what is your question I don't have any questions I know how to connect and answer my own questions but sometimes they give me a message anyway you know yeah so yes it is an honor I think you know I just maybe one of the reasons I'm so enchanted or enamored of you know shamanic healing shamanic connection shamanic conversation with the spirits and the world is because I think I hunger for that because you know I know that to make this world a more beautiful place or to you know help another who is suffering or to reconcile someone's I don't know family or whatever whatever kind of beautiful act can be brought into the world I can't do it myself like I need I need the help of every spirit and angel that's out there I mean tree spirit and you know maybe grass spirit or the river spirit and there's also something really nourishing to my heart to know that I can be in close communion and I can be have deep friendship with these other living beings and that they just as much of a right to exist as I do and that you know after I'm long gone or maybe even the whole human race is long gone they will still be here and they will still be you know surviving thriving and and just eternally beautiful yeah um and so I think that's uh that's kind of where I'm coming from as far as with my my kind of endless quest for you know reading every myth under the sun trying to understand culture and you know I also blame my parents because I grew up overseas so it's like I just have this hunger like um in Guyana in South America and then in Lahore in Pakistan wow um you know I mean as a child like you can imagine I didn't get to see very much in either of those places because we were kept kind of sequestered away but I would have to say I was talking on a podcast the other day that the most beautiful place I've ever been is Kashmir because we got to spend a week on a houseboat there uh when they weren't fighting and at war for a brief and I I've never experienced such beauty in my entire life as as Kashmir it's like something out of some other reality which you know I was five or six years old and the fact that I can remember it so well I think just it was just this insane experience for my senses that just was forever imprinted wow me so um you know I I'm I have this hunger I think as you were talking about for for just um finding new ways I mean I'm always looking for new friends right so why can't that friend be a river sure there's no reason it can't be a river right as long as he doesn't want to borrow any eggs I'm okay with it borrow any what eggs eggs yeah like a neighbor coming over and saying hey do you have any eggs and then you've got two eggs left and you think ah I should give these eggs to my neighbor because they need them I don't really need them then I've got to go to the store to get more eggs that's great I hope that you all enjoyed my conversation with sass carry and I have to say that these interviews are really feeding my soul and my heart and I hope that they're doing the very same for yours I'm so grateful to sass for agreeing to be on the podcast and for sharing about all the work she's doing and has done in Mongolia and the documentary films and books that she's created I'm so grateful to her for preserving this way of life and for sharing that knowledge with all of us the work that she's doing is so very important and it's helping not only we who choose to check it out but it's helping those who live in Mongolia those nomads and the reindeer herders she's helping to preserve a way of life and she's helping to preserve knowledge of a way of life that is rapidly disappearing in that part of the world I need to thank all of you for listening and for writing those ratings and leaving those reviews they're so very important to me and they help other people find us and find these stories these stories of magic these stories of miracles these stories of ways of life that are happening all over the world so thank you for listening and here's my one request be like sass be open to the adventure you never know when you travel in this world where it's going to take you what kind of encounters you're going to have what kind of fabulous stranger is just waiting to meet you so be like sass be ready for the adventure and when you find yourself in the middle of it have faith and trust that this universe knows exactly where it's taking you see you next week for another fabulous story for another fabulous adventure for another fabulous miracle because they're happening all around us to all sorts of people and I have so many more amazing people that I can't wait for you to meet you know interviewing the shamans is a very interesting thing because since they don't call themselves shamans it's like interviewing a regular person sort of but they've had other experiences and then when they're the shaman you're not going to interview them because they're they bring through someone else one of their relatives or something you know so I don't know if I'm clear on this but you know I think of them as one person whether they're a shaman whether they're doing their shaman thing and bringing the ancestor and I think of them as a person but I don't think they do they think they think they're just a regular old nothing and then they're bringing the ancestor through their body I don't know if that's clear but so so it's almost like um they're channeling an ancestor who might have more knowledge or answers or different knowledge and I'll talk about channeling I want to say there are two different ways in my my experience one is to be a medium and one is to be a channeler you know channeler you're still I'm still there I let the energy come through I speak but a medium you leave and so when sometimes when we've interviewed shamans I remember my assistant said you know I'd like to ask a question and she said to him how do you feel before you do a ceremony and he said I'm scared because I never know what's going to come or what I'm going to need to do so it's like a completely different thing you know you put that costume on and you aren't yet that you're your own person anymore whereas where my work is I'm here all the time you know and okay it's like being pregnant or something you have another kind of energy going through you but you're not that person and I remember did you ever hear of Rosalind Breer she was a famous healer she was a medium and she talked about how it was to leave her body and just you know didn't really know where what she would be made to do or I don't really do that I'm I sort of like a control freak I like to know where I am it's actually very interesting um before I started seminary read this great book called the divine horseman by Maya Daron are you familiar that yeah she was like a cultural anthropologist filmmaker who went to Haiti in like the 30s and 40s I think um anyway she wrote this incredible book called the divine horseman which just blew my mind and is basically she spent so much time down there and really just became embraced by the community and allowed to sit in on ceremony and worship services and she describes you know the god comes in this this god comes in and mounts a human being so the human being like loses who they are and then starts speaking through them yes fencing wisdom you know advice maybe ideas of something someone should do and it's and it's you know the people they never know who's going to be ridden by the god it's just everybody's in the ceremony chanting dancing um and like who knows who's going to be the vessel for this god and um you know it's it sounds a little scary but they're not scared because it's so normalized down there that's it's totally normal and each god has a different personality a different way of being likes different foods different colors and and but it's very it's very obvious when the person gets mounted by the god um and then the god you know enjoys himself herself or themselves and and then they just depart you know when it's time when they're maybe sick and tired of all the whining from the people or who knows and um it's fascinating because she ends the book um talking about what it feels like to be mounted because it happened to her but there's like a place where she can't go any further because she loses all sense of self and conscious she has no idea what transpired and happened during those minutes where the god was in her and i just think that that would be terrifying for me yeah you know so it makes me think of two things one is um quaker meeting you know that we were talking about before where you nobody knows who's going to be asked to speak it could be anyone it could come from any person because we don't have clergy or you know some quaker places do but ours isn't called an unprogrammed so that's one thing the other thing is this whole issue of drinking smoking um things that you do with your body when you're a shaman when someone else has taken over your body and they want vodka or they want a cigarette and i've had um i know there was one shaman i talked to europe who wasn't her health wasn't that great and she was a year younger than i and she was a shaman i saw her do a ceremony but she said sometimes she would just one time she said to me i had to take the year off because my health is not that good and even though it's not me smoking smoking or drinking vodka i have to do it if i if i say yes to this so i mean it's just an interesting thing when you're talking about mounting a body you know yeah that stuff that stuff of alcohol and you know they they do this like come here like give me not i can't get my hand in here but yeah they do this and they're they always have an assistant so it's usually their wife or husband um and that person knows what that means and what to give them but sometimes they might give them some milk and they'll go you know or get really angry and then put their hand out again no i want the vodka you know and they don't say it they just put their hand out and expect the vodka so um it's it's it's very there's a lot i don't understand you know i'm just an observer of it because i'm not that i'm not mongolian so i miss it sometimes one uh person i think it might be the one we made the movie of everybody got a white strip and it was about having a wish or or um a question or something and you tied it on the back of the ceremony and he wouldn't let me do it as a foreigner so yeah had to be mongolian he said just interesting stuff you know that um i yeah that i don't understand at all i have just one last question and i'm just interested to see if you have anything to say about it but um in the cosmology of these these herders of the people living in mongolia do they believe that time is a circle that everything repeats itself i mean how do they view death did you were you ever able to have conversations about that yes they believe in reincarnation um they believe even in what they call a mole that means that somebody could have a birthmark that was their ancestor had the same birthmark and they came through as that ancestor like one of my really good friends actually who's on my board and went to middlebury college mongolian she she explained this to me that she had her uncle i think or aunt had died around when she was born and they had the same kind of mole or or a birthmark so they do believe in reincarnation as far as when the shamans die they take them out to the forest and leave them out there and um i have some good stories about that kind of thing like one person the first person that told me a story about it said they had hung up the costume this leather shaman costume on a tree and that it rained and then snowed but there was a circle around it where it didn't snow