Interview: Lewis Mehl-Madrona~This Entire Episode Is Magic!

Spirits are real in Dr. Mehl-Madrona's world (in mine too, babies!) and potent, and just waiting to begin relationship with us, to help us co-create a world and a reality in which everything is sacred. I hope our talk heals your hearts and opens you to the possibility that so much more is possible in this world than we have been led to believe!!

Transcript

Hello,

Babes,

And welcome to the 200th,

Can you believe it,

200th episode of this podcast.

And I have a really special guest for you all.

And I'm so excited that I get to introduce you to Dr.

Lewis Mel Medrona.

Now,

You have to know,

I picked up his book,

Knowing nothing about him or his work,

His book,

Coyote Healing,

And I read it and was absolutely gobsmacked and smitten with the idea that the author was trying to present,

Which is that even though he is a Stanford MD,

He believes there are other ways in which we can heal ourselves.

So yes,

Use Western medical technologies,

But maybe there are other forms of healing out there that we can access.

At any rate,

He was on my get list.

And that's my list of dreamy,

Over the moon guests that I kind of only hope and pray to get on this podcast.

So about a year and a half,

I emailed him and didn't hear back.

And I thought,

Okay,

You know,

Probably went to the junk email box.

That's okay.

Not a big deal.

And then I kind of waited a little bit and read a couple more books of his and was even more enchanted.

And then I sent him a message and then we were off to the races.

I can't even tell you how nervous I was interviewing him,

But our conversation was free flowing and fun.

He has a wicked sense of humor is so generous of spirit.

And really,

I think has a lot to say about how we humans engage in healing ourselves.

I found an article written by Dr.

Louis Mel Medrona.

It's called connectivity and healing,

Some hypotheses about the phenomenon and how to study it.

And so in this,

And I'm just going to paraphrase a little bit.

It says that sometimes people heal from,

Let's say cancer in a spontaneous remission.

And the doctors say,

Oh,

Well,

You know,

Yes,

That's incredible.

It's rare,

But it is within the bell curve of possibility with these kinds of diseases that some people are going to indeed spontaneously heal and the cancer is going to go away.

But Dr.

Mel Medrona believes that there are many different other ways we can use to heal ourselves besides for just using Western methodologies.

And in this,

In this paper,

He gives the example of Bethany,

Who was a 36 year old woman who had completed treatment for thyroid cancer and pronounced cured.

She then met Dr.

Mel Medrona.

She had some stress related symptoms and they confirmed that she had a temporal lobe tumor.

She had surgery and the tumor was removed.

They say that most patients with this diagnosis die within 11 months,

But she's still alive eight years later.

And how do we explain this?

She underwent standard chemo and radiation.

The best estimates at the time were that these treatments would prolong her life by 4%,

Which isn't like a dramatic increase.

Some people said you should just skip these things,

But she disagreed and went ahead.

In addition,

She also joined Dr.

Mel Medrona's weekly healing circle.

They did extra visualizations and energy healing sessions.

And then she attended sweat lodges and healing ceremonies in the local Native American community.

She also reinvented her life because she started surrounding herself with people who believed that she would be healed.

She left a stressful job that she hated.

She left a relationship that was going nowhere and she created a new life for herself and new reasons for why she should live.

And it also says in the paper that she continues to avoid pessimists and surrounds herself with loving friends and family.

And so here she is eight years later,

As of this paper,

Still alive and still living her best life.

And so Dr.

Mel Medrona and I in this episode,

Yes,

We do discuss some pretty fantastical and fabulous miracles,

But also we talk about relationship,

Relationship to each other,

To the world,

To the environment,

Relationship to ourselves,

Our stories.

What are the stories that we tell ourselves?

What are the stories we tell about the world?

How do we take care of ourselves?

How can we do that better?

And also he brings up a really interesting point that perhaps it's about time that all of us start looking at the world with Native American eyes.

And you will understand when you listen to this episode,

We will get to it about three quarters of the way through,

But we will get there and you'll understand what I mean by that.

Now,

I want to thank all of you who have listened so far to all 200 episodes.

You have no idea how grateful I am.

I'm so thankful to all of you who have left ratings and reviews,

But most of all,

I am so excited to introduce you to this incredible,

Incredible human being who's written multiple books among them,

Coyote Healing,

Narrative Medicine,

The Use of History and Story in the Healing Process,

Coyote Medicine,

Lessons from Native American Healing,

And Coyote Wisdom,

The Power of Story and Healing.

He has many other books.

You need to check them all out.

There will be links to his Amazon page if you want to just click on it and buy one of his incredible creations.

But I'll stop talking now because I'm ever so excited to introduce you to Dr.

Louis Mel Medrona.

So thank you so much.

I just want to let you know,

I'm going to fangirl here for a few seconds and let you know that I discovered you at Book Mountain in Santa Fe,

Which is just this really eclectic bookstore.

I think the woman,

She was 89 years old.

She's owned it for decades.

She just sold it,

But it's kind of this rabbit warren of a building and you keep going further and further back and there are more books as far as the eye can see.

And I'm going to And so I found Coyote Medicine there and it looked so intriguing and so I picked it up.

And of course I was hooked and had to buy the rest of your books.

And so right now I'm reading Coyote Healing,

Which I think is just one of my favorites,

Partially because Popular Mechanics just had an article that came out that said,

Scientists think they're close to what consciousness scientists think they're close to what consciousness is.

And it said,

Hint,

It's connect,

You're connected to the entire universe.

And I thought to myself,

Well,

My gosh,

That's exactly what I'm reading in your book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Isn't it great that science is finally catching up to the Lakota?

I love that you say that finally catching up to the Lakota.

Yes,

It is.

I mean,

There are all these really ancient and beautiful ways of believing about what this world is comprised of and what it's made of.

And we can get to that a little bit later,

But I would love to hear you.

Would you introduce yourself for my audience?

Just tell a little bit about who you are.

Well,

I'm still trying to figure out who I am.

So I'm Louis Mel Madrona.

So my birth name was Louis Eugene McKinley,

Jr.

And I was,

I was adopted and then took on the name Madrona after my daughter was born.

And because I didn't like the name Mel,

So I became Mel Madrona.

Madrona is a tree in,

In the West Coast.

And my daughter was born at home amidst a forest of Madrona trees.

So we decided to make her last name Madrona.

So eventually everyone became Madrona or not everyone,

But a lot of us became Madronas.

So I grew up in Southeastern Kentucky in Rockcastle County,

Which is on the Tennessee border and was part of,

Of a enclave of Cherokee expatriates.

And through ancestry and me,

I've tracked down a bunch of them,

Which is kind of cool.

It seems like they arrived in Rockcastle County somewhere around the Trail of Tears.

And there's some interesting relatives I have.

There's Abraham Lincoln Shurer and Ulysses S.

Grant Shurer.

So I suspect my family supported the union.

So anyway,

I eventually,

Well,

My,

My mother got us to Ohio and we were part of that exodus of Kentucky,

Which is described in that book,

Hillbillyology.

So that's exactly where we went to a town called Hamiltucky.

Actually it's called Hamilton,

Ohio,

But everyone calls it Hamiltucky.

And then my mother arranged for me to be adopted by the guy that she married,

Who was not nice,

But that's another story.

We won't go there.

Eventually I started off college at Miami University in Oxford,

Ohio.

And then I transferred to Indiana University where I graduated and I was able to get admitted to Stanford Medical School,

Which is where I went to medical school.

Stanford was quite a shock to me.

And it was really a couple of Cherokee elders who helped me to survive the medical school experience.

And other native students in my class were really helpful and particularly Henrietta Blue Eyes.

Then I went on to family medicine residency at Wisconsin and then eventually finished my training at the University of Vermont.

And here we are today.

Yes.

One of the things that I found particularly intriguing,

I believe it was in coyote medicine,

Was you spoke about how you kind of brought in other,

I mean,

I would say other,

But non-Western,

Let's use the word non-Western methodologies of healing people.

So that it wasn't just this kind of clinical Western directed way of viewing the patient,

Having a conversation.

You really talk beautifully about including different methodologies,

Talk therapy,

Storytelling.

I find it so intriguing and even having ceremonies for patients or for people who were open to it.

How did you arrive at incorporating?

I know this is a big question,

So you don't have to attend to every single part of it,

But how did you evolve into that?

Well,

I grew up being doctored by Cherokee people and I had pretty severe asthma as a child.

You know,

It was the,

I guess you would call it folk medicine and touch therapies that helped me a lot.

And so that was just what I knew.

I mean,

I also had occasionally some conventional medicine,

Which in those days was just an oxygen tent.

You know,

This was in the 1950s.

There wasn't specific treatments really for asthma in those days.

And that was really what I knew.

And when I was in medical school,

I did a rotation where we spent a half day a week for a year in the general medicine clinic and they gave us an hour for each patient.

And I found that I would run out of time.

So I didn't want to stop early because I figured then they'd give me more patients.

So I started telling stories to people in the way that my grandmother did.

You know,

It just seemed like a lot of fun and it,

You know,

It occupied the time.

And one day another medical student sat in with me and he was a student of the Spiegel's,

Who were the hypnosis people at Stanford.

I think it was Herbert Spiegel,

Because the younger Spiegel wasn't really up and coming yet.

And he asked me,

Where did I learn hypnosis?

And I said,

What's that?

And he said,

That thing that you're doing,

It's hypnosis.

And I said,

Oh,

Okay.

I guess I'm doing hypnosis.

Also,

When I was at Stanford,

I,

You know,

Stanford was pretty liberal in those days.

And so I did a six week elective in acupuncture.

And after that,

I did that before my year in the general medical clinic.

And so I was also doing acupuncture there,

Which was kind of novel for,

This was 1973.

So that was a bit novel for 1973.

You know,

My supervisor said,

I don't believe in this crap,

But it's great placebo.

He said,

And that's why I'm letting you do it.

And I said,

Wonderful.

You know,

And my experience with the two Cherokee healers who helped me through school,

Gila and Grandfather Roberts,

You know,

They did a lot of touch therapies.

And so I picked up on those.

And then when I,

When I left Stanford,

I went to the University of Wisconsin for a couple years.

And,

And there,

There was a Ojibwe healer who helped me get rid of my asthma,

Which is,

Yeah,

Which is basically gone,

Except if I'm in a closed room with six long haired cats,

It'll come back.

I've tried that out and I don't recommend it.

Then,

I went back to California and I went to a conference.

I was looking for a teacher and I literally tripped and fell into the lap of Marilyn Youngberg,

Who became my teacher.

She said,

I guess this means I'm supposed to be your teacher.

So,

So I was her helper for a number of years.

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

And,

Helping her with ceremony.

And also during that time,

I was learning Cherokee hands-on healing from some people in Oakland,

California,

You know,

It's kind of an organic process of just learning all these things.

And I remember,

You know,

Mostly I just hung out with elder,

But the day that I started doing,

There were two things that happened.

The day that I started doing ceremonies for people,

A woman walked into my office and she said that she had rheumatoid arthritis in her ankles.

And,

And she was,

She'd heard about me and she was convinced if I did a ceremony that she would get better.

And I'm like,

Well,

I don't know what to do.

And so I,

I called one of my teachers in Northern California and he said,

Well,

Just make it up,

You know,

Pretend that you're me and do what I would do because she already has faith and that's the most important.

So whatever you do,

It's going to work because she's already told you it's going to work.

So just pretend you're me and do whatever I would do.

And,

And so I did that and it worked.

You know,

That was part of my education and the power of belief and the power of faith.

So,

And the same thing happened for me for leading Anipi ceremonies,

Which the Jesuits call sweat lodge,

But we don't call it that anymore.

You know,

I was a helper,

You know,

Carrying the rocks and taking care of things for many years.

And I went with a group of people to a place in Tennessee.

We were at a conference in Nashville.

And now,

Of course,

We know the place is famous,

But in those days it wasn't,

It was called the farm.

And so,

So we went there to go to a lodge and,

And they were going to put marijuana in the pipe and the sacred pipe.

And I'm like,

We don't do that.

That's not what we do.

And they're like,

Well,

Then screw you.

And they walked away and we'd driven two hours to,

To go to this ceremony.

Someone,

One of the people who was with me said,

Well,

You've been around this for years.

Why don't you do it?

I'm like,

Gulp.

And so,

So I said,

Well,

We're here.

I guess so.

You know,

I apologize to the spirits for all the mistakes I was going to make and,

You know,

Yada,

Yada.

And we did it.

And then I,

I,

Afterwards,

I,

You know,

The next day I called up Marilyn and told her what happened.

And she said,

Well,

You did the right thing.

So,

So I said,

Okay.

So I,

I don't know,

I never really had a plan for how I was going to do this.

I just sort of fell into things.

And,

And one of the things that I did over the years that,

That was really wonderful was taking people to work with elders,

You know,

Preparing people and taking them to the reservation or to the home of the elder and,

And just,

Just experiencing the incredible healing that happened,

You know,

Being a facilitator of that,

Being around that.

And sometimes,

You know,

I got to work with people and amazing things happened.

And sometimes they didn't.

One elder told me that,

You know,

It's really important not to take any credit for healing because the spirits do it.

He said,

And also don't take any blame if it doesn't happen,

Because that's also up to the spirits.

He said,

But if they offer to pay you,

You can take that.

So he was pretty funny.

Thank you for explaining all that.

I'm so grateful.

And I would,

I just want my listeners to know that you do such a gorgeous job of explaining how essential it is to set up a ceremony in the proper way.

And that there are certain things you do at certain times,

You know,

You have to be so respectful of the entire process.

And I just love that you told me that you were put in this position where you had to lead the ceremony.

And everything I think,

You know,

With right intention,

The spirits know,

You have the right intention,

And that it was received.

Well,

Do you agree?

Yeah,

Yeah,

I do agree.

And I think,

I think for the most part,

They think that we're cute.

You know,

We're,

We're,

We're,

We're nice little pets.

And they enjoy us,

You know,

And and they forgive a lot,

Just like you would forgive your dog if he ate your dinner off the table.

I mean,

And of course,

There are people who go to the dark side.

I mean,

I'm not saying that doesn't happen.

Because we're well aware of that these days with the mess the country is in.

You know,

I think for the most part,

The spirits that help us for healing are pretty forgiving.

And they're also pretty funny.

Somebody asked me,

How do you know if you're getting a message from a spirit?

And I said,

Because they're smarter and funnier than me.

I appreciate how much humility you have and how funny you are.

I have to tell you,

I read such a beautiful book,

The World We Used to Live In by Vine Deloria,

Jr.

And,

And he talks about these ways of having ceremony and healing ceremony with people and,

And just the things that were witnessed during these ceremonies that,

You know,

In our,

I mean,

Somewhat sterile world,

Because I call it a sterile world that I live in,

I'm endlessly searching for,

You know,

The magic or possibility,

Imagination.

But we live in,

The Western world is a little bit constricted and sterile and locked down,

I guess,

Maybe.

And reading that book really helped me and your book,

Frankly,

Because you talk about some of these occurrences that are that are inexplicable,

Like the tent shaking or moving.

And,

You know,

Flashes of light being seen where,

You know,

Nothing should be causing that flash of light.

But I think it's important to read these books so that we understand that there is a lot more,

There's so much more possibility out there of,

Of kind of co-creating or having a relationship with things that we cannot see than we currently understand.

Indeed.

And,

You know,

That the Vine Deloria book was just amazing.

And I just,

I'm,

I'm like,

Wow,

You know,

I can't do those feats of power and magic.

I mean,

One of my wife works for the agency who serves the tribes of Maine.

And one of her clients told her about his grandfather turning into a wolf before he died.

And,

And she said,

Are you going to do that?

And he said,

No,

I'm,

I'm too,

I'm too tainted by modern civilization.

He said,

In order to do that,

You have to grow up in that.

You have to be born into that and grow up in that.

And he said,

We can't do that anymore.

And I thought that was apropos to what Deloria described.

You know,

Because he described very well witnessed events.

Like,

I think about the,

The,

The man who was shot with bullets and spit them out.

I mean,

You know,

I would die.

I'm really sure of that.

But,

But,

You know,

He was really sure he wasn't,

He wouldn't.

And,

And it's just so,

You know,

Deloria talks about how he talked about one tribe who said that matter is frozen thought.

I don't know if you remember that from the book.

And he said,

So all you have to do to,

To change matter is to unfreeze the thought and then refreeze it.

And he said,

You know,

The ancestors were quantum mechanics.

They knew how to manipulate thought and matter.

And there's still a couple of people who can do that.

There's a guy,

Warfield Moose,

Who lives in South Dakota.

So there's this thing called a Uipi ceremony.

And it's if they tie up the medicine man,

And it's all in the dark and amazing,

Crazy things happen.

And all the doors were locked in the room where this was going on.

And so when the lights went on,

There was no Warfield in the room.

So he was knocking on the door outside the room from the kitchen,

Which was locked from the inside.

And,

And people will think I'm crazy.

But there were like 30 people there who witnessed this.

This is not just me saying this.

This is like witnessed by all kinds of people.

And,

And,

You know,

He said,

Well,

You know,

The spirits just put me on the other side of the door.

I mean,

How do you explain that?

So I don't know many people who can pull that off.

But Warfield is an amazing person who can.

And I don't know,

I feel like I probably have too much education to pull off anything like that.

You know,

I'm,

I've been too exposed to the wet to the conventional world.

You know,

I'm,

I mean,

I'm a doctor,

You know,

I,

I like treat people in the hospital.

And it's just,

It's daunting to think about what could be possible.

And how far we are from that.

And I don't know how to get it back.

I don't know how we could.

I don't know what we would have to do to get it back.

Or if we can ever get it back.

But I sure wish we could.

Me too.

I'll be right behind you in line saying me too.

Well,

You referenced earlier,

You talked about,

You know,

Because I brought up the quantum consciousness subject,

First thing in this conversation,

And you referenced the Lakota,

Because I'd really like to talk to you about coyote healing.

So what did the Lakota believe?

Well,

I should preface that by saying my,

My drive to connect with Lakota came about because the Cherokee guy on my original birth certificate turned out not to be my father.

And he,

He told me I found another guy who might I had four possible fathers.

Welcome to the res.

And anyway,

He told me that the guy who was most likely my father was this Lakota guy from Rapid City,

South Dakota.

You know,

My,

My mother was a very,

Very much a non drinker,

But occasionally,

On special occasions,

We could slip her a glass of wine.

And when we did,

She would talk about Frank in Rapid City,

South Dakota,

And how she was went out there to see if she could live with him.

And she decided it was too foreign and it was too far from her mother and whatnot.

So anyway,

When I found this out,

I went looking for Frank.

I never found Frank,

You know,

But I did find Lakota.

I started studying with that with a guy out there,

Sonny Richards.

And Sonny brought me to Joe Tiona.

And I started sun dancing with them.

And this this year will be my 27th year of sun dancing.

So you know,

I found it was sort of like looking for my father,

And not finding him but finding Lakota.

You know,

I was really,

I've had times of feeling distressed that I couldn't find him.

And,

You know,

My friends out on Pine Ridge and Cheyenne River,

They're like,

It doesn't matter.

We like you.

You're fine.

And I remember once this elder took me into a pasture to test me.

You know,

There were a bunch of horses there.

And he said,

The horses will tell me if you're okay.

And so this one horse came up and started nuzzling me.

And just,

You know,

He said,

That horse don't like nobody said,

You're okay.

Yeah,

I mean,

I've had an identity crisis for my whole life,

By virtue of uncertain paternity and being adopted and yada yada.

So the Lakota view,

As I mean,

And not everyone agrees in Lakota country,

Because they don't even pronounce the words the same,

You know,

20 kilometers down the road,

Sometimes.

But,

You know,

It's the idea that,

That we're spirit beings come into physical form.

And it's very much like the Bhagavad Gita,

Actually,

You know,

Which talks about how the goddess comes to earth and,

And talks about how her thoughts are so slow,

Because they have to go through a brain.

And her movement is so slow,

Because it requires legs.

And I mean,

The elders that I that I hung out with,

Talked about how we choose to come to the earth.

And,

Of course,

It's,

It's not a reincarnational cycle,

In the sense of having to be reborn,

They believe,

Pretty much everyone I met believe that if we come back,

We choose to come back and for a purpose.

And sometimes we bought off more than we can chew.

Because it looks so easy in spirit world,

And it's not.

And so they talked about how we have to be compassionate to the people who are suffering,

Because,

You know,

They're here for a noble purpose.

And I always appreciated that,

Because it just seemed like there is so much suffering in our world.

And it's so sad.

And,

And I keep wondering,

You know,

Why can't people just get along?

Like,

Like,

What's the problem here,

People?

I don't know.

It's funny,

Because I guess people,

It's always been a problem.

I mean,

Well,

Maybe not always,

But,

But you think about when war began,

Which I think was about 10,

000 BC,

In what's now Ethiopia,

The theory was that it came about because of,

Of overgrazing.

And so deserts were being created.

And people wanted to take other people's land for themselves.

And so,

So I,

I guess we have at least a 12,

000 year history of selfishness,

You know,

Of the Ferengi laws of acquisition,

All for me and none for you.

But it's just,

It just seems tragic and sad that this is how the world is.

Well,

I mean,

We've seen it,

Right,

Easter Island,

They said that it was deforested,

And they ran out of,

Well,

Everything that you need to live.

And then possibly in parts of Guatemala,

With the ancient Maya,

That humans just have this propensity to kind of soak every last item from the land,

And then say,

Oh,

Why?

Why is the land?

Why can't we live here anymore?

Why?

Where are all the animals?

Like,

Why is it a desert,

And never really take responsibility for how they're cultivating the land or interacting with the environment.

So it seems like we keep making the same mistakes over and over again,

Without actually learning anything.

I love that you brought up touch before like touch therapy,

Because I don't think people understand how potent it can be.

To actually,

Because I think a lot of people I see people walking around these days,

And I,

They're not in their bodies,

They are everywhere else,

But in their bodies.

And I think partly,

It's because people are stressed,

They're having anxiety,

It's hard to reside in the body,

The mind is just always has to go because they're stressed out.

But one of the things in coyote healing that I really loved was,

You brought up the fact of stories residing in the body and stories needing to be unlocked and worked with,

So that healing could happen.

And some of the examples that you give are just astounding.

And that's kind of in my mind,

You know,

When something happens to you a trauma or,

Or a repetitive event,

And you take it on,

You if it gets locked in the body,

That's kind of a quantum event,

Because you store it in there.

And I,

You know,

It could be massage,

It could be rolfing,

It could be reflexology.

I know,

I don't reside in my body as much as I should.

But we need to,

We need to make friends with our bodies.

And I feel like touch therapy is so important in that respect.

Absolutely.

And that's been part of indigenous healing the world around.

Some of the most amazing touch therapies that I've seen come from New Zealand,

The Maoris,

I saw this really huge Maori guy,

Basically sit on a person while he was doing bodywork.

And the person got up after the session was over,

Quit his job,

Got a bicycle and and and rode to the bottom of South America.

That was a transformation.

I think the important thing is,

You know,

You can go in for what you perceive as one thing,

But really,

It might not even be the root of what you need to engage with.

Right,

Right.

Yeah.

And,

Um,

You know,

I was fortunate enough to learn Cherokee bodywork.

I mean,

That is bodywork that I learned from Cherokee people.

So I'm calling it Cherokee bodywork.

But now we know that that was all over Missouri in the 1850s.

The Shawnee,

Pawnee,

Cherokee,

And Potawatomi were all doing that sort of work with themselves.

And,

And a couple colleagues and I wrote a paper about the indigenous origins of American osteopathy.

Because Andrew Taylor still came to Missouri and was fluent speaker of Shawnee and was incredibly influenced,

We believe,

By those tribes that were living there at the time.

And you know,

Our our argument and also there's a couple other scholars that are making the same argument.

There's Raphael Zagara-Parody,

Who's Peruvian and French,

And Ron Ellis,

Who's American and French,

Both osteopaths,

That still was already considered a weirdo in his time.

And the worst thing that you could be in the 1890s was an Indian.

Like that was worse than being black.

And so it still had let out that he learned anything from Indians.

It would have been the end for him and his,

And his technique.

So he couldn't,

He couldn't talk about it.

But some of his students wrote about one of the things he said was he was trying to teach people to take a look at the body with Indian eyes.

And,

And his philosophy was decidedly indigenous in the sense of mind,

Body,

Spirit,

And all of that.

And the spiritual foundations of the work and,

You know,

The beliefs are,

Are not very European,

And they are very indigenous.

So,

So we argue in in our paper,

As do a few other scholars,

That American osteopathy came from the indigenous people of Missouri at the time in the,

You know,

In the 1850s.

I have to say,

I was seeing an osteopath in Santa Fe who had like a two-month waiting list,

And he was known as the wizard.

He was Welsh,

And he'd walk into the room always eternally in a t-shirt and giant welly boots and overalls every single time.

And his white hair,

He looked like Einstein.

It went everywhere.

And you felt like some sort of druid had just sort of spelunked out of the woods.

But I swear,

I have never experienced what I,

I mean,

He put his hands on the back of my neck and he said,

Whoa,

You have had way more trauma than you told me.

And I thought,

What?

How does he know this?

But I mean,

Honestly,

The stories that he could read in my body,

When I hadn't told,

And he said them back to me,

And I thought,

Okay,

What is going on here?

What is happening?

And I,

Of course,

Fell in love with him because I knew that I was getting some really potent work.

But it's,

It's real.

Osteopathy is,

Is real.

And it's powerful.

And it's amazing.

Yeah,

Yeah,

For sure.

Yeah.

And I think what he was doing was taking a look at you with Indian eyes.

Absolutely.

You know,

One of the things that I always try to be cognizant of and aware of is,

You know,

We were talking earlier about these really incredible,

I don't know if you call them secrets or ways of being,

But you know,

That Vine Deloria Jr.

Talked about were disappearing,

And that you were lamenting that they're disappearing.

We both were.

And it's really,

It's interesting because,

You know,

There are,

I went to Chaco Canyon,

And it's,

It was so interesting to me.

And I learned so much.

But the guide who was Native American said,

He was Indigenous,

He said,

Look,

Even the people who are descendants of the builders here can't agree how we should manage this site.

You know,

Some people are saying we should let it decay into the desert,

Into the land.

Other people say,

We want to be proud of what our ancestors have done.

We want people to come and witness it.

And with,

You know,

The Indigenous eyes,

As a white person,

I feel really respectful and aware that those secrets,

Those ways of being,

Those ways of healing might not be for me.

And they're not knowledge that I should possess,

Because I'm not Indigenous.

Now,

I did talk to a woman who said,

Well,

You're,

You're Norse,

You know,

You come from a Norse lineage,

Scottish lineage,

You can study and learn healing in that vein.

And so I think,

You know,

It's important to note that even if you're not Indigenous,

There are other ways of studying and being respectful,

Being respectable of groups and lineages and communities.

But you can still become a healer in your respective,

Maybe from the country that you descended from.

Yeah.

And I suspect that this wasn't such an issue in 1850,

That,

You know,

Before the Blood Quantum Act of 1904,

You could just join a tribe,

If they would have you.

I mean,

That was,

Of course,

The big question,

Would they have you?

You know,

The,

The,

The head chief of the Cherokee,

And at the time of the Trail of Tears,

Was technically seven,

Eight Scottish.

And his name was John Ross.

But Blood Quantum wasn't a thing in those days.

And,

And the there's,

There's a lot of interesting stories about women who were kidnapped,

And deciding to stay with the tribe rather than be rescued,

Because it was a lot more fun to be with the tribe.

And they were full members.

So it seems like it,

It's a relatively modern phenomena.

This,

This whole notion of,

Of follow your,

Follow your genetic heritage,

Because I don't think people had an understanding of genetics.

Previously,

You know,

People just showed up and you either like them or you didn't.

And if you didn't like them,

It didn't matter what their genetics were.

I mean,

Certainly at Sundance,

I've seen,

You know,

The elders turn away full bloods and allow non-native people in some cases to dance,

Because their criteria was to,

To look at the soul and not the skin.

And,

And I'm sure,

For some people,

That would sound politically incorrect.

These days.

I do think it's complicated.

I don't know.

I suppose if I'd grown up believing that I was Scottish,

Which I don't think I am,

But if I did,

I would look to that.

I would have naturally looked to that.

You know,

That would have been my reference point.

Certainly,

Healing is all over the world.

Wherever you go,

There's healing.

And we went to,

To Baton in France and found out that there's a saint for every body part.

There's a saint for your little finger,

Your fourth finger,

Your third finger.

And,

And we were gifted with this book of saints for all the body parts.

And we thought,

You know,

This isn't exactly dogmatic Catholicism.

This is kind of like indigenous grafted,

You know,

Onto Catholicism.

And,

And you certainly see that in Latin America where,

Where Catholicism and indigenous beliefs have sort of morphed into something different,

Maybe from both of them,

But interesting.

Like you see that in curanderismo,

Where there's,

You can see the Catholic influence and you can see the indigenous influence.

And they're an interesting group because they've,

They formed associations and schools and they have an annual conference in Albuquerque and,

And they don't exclude people by virtue of their genetic origins.

So it,

It's interesting the way,

You know,

The different ways people are,

Are responding to this.

I did think it was really,

Really cool that the college there,

The university in Albuquerque offers a course on curanderismo.

I thought that was amazing.

Yeah,

Isn't it?

Unbelievable.

Well,

And they host,

It's UNM that hosts this conference every summer.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It's so fascinating.

Well,

I know our time is,

Is drawing short.

So the main question of this podcast is,

Which you kind of already told a few stories,

But I always ask my guest and,

And I know the answer here is already yes for you,

But I always ask my guests,

I would love to hear a story or stories where you feel like you've witnessed something magical or miraculous in your life or something inexplicable.

And,

And how did it change you?

I think,

I think the story that comes to mind,

Two stories come to mind and maybe,

And there,

Maybe I can tell both.

So when I went to my first Sundance,

I had no idea what I was getting into and,

And Sunny,

My teacher just said,

Come with us,

You know,

Do what we do.

And so I did.

And it was one of the more challenging experiences of my life because I,

I wasn't actually prepared and I didn't actually bring the right gear.

And so I was either boiling or freezing or wet the whole time.

And in spite of that,

I saw spirits and,

And that was just so uplifting.

I feel like they'd been with me ever since,

You know,

I was drawn to buffalos,

Bulling buffalos.

And eventually I,

I was gifted with the name of Tatanka Witkoikasha,

Which means crazy buffalo man.

So,

So I would say on the one hand,

Sundance has always been a source of transformation and,

And inspiration for me.

And,

And the other thing that came to mind was going to a night ceremony with a yaki healer.

We had brought a woman who had cancer to him for,

For work.

I think I wrote about this in one of my books.

I can't remember which one.

So we smelled while he was working on her,

We smelled roses and we saw,

Several of us saw what we interpreted to be the face of the Virgin Mary in the clouds.

And she saw it too.

And it was just magic.

And,

You know,

When she went home,

Her tumors had,

She'd had multiple tumors and they had coalesced into two and they could both be removed.

And that was just incredible.

And,

And,

You know,

I,

I'm totally aware that I didn't make that happen.

I was just there for the ride,

But that was transformative in so many ways because it's,

It's not just sort of Hispanic Catholics who get to see the Virgin Mary on the side of Barnes.

Welcome to Arizona and New Mexico,

By the way,

As you well know.

I'm a big fan of,

I mean,

I did see a Quirin Dera for a while in,

In Santa Fe.

Obviously,

I think I,

Just by virtue of hearing me talk,

You can tell that I investigate other ways of being in this world and other possibilities,

Because I think they're out there and I,

I'm inquisitive and,

You know,

I want to learn more.

I always say that I'm never going to live long enough because my curiosity and just how in love I am with the world is,

Will never be satiated.

So,

But yeah,

I did see a Quirin Dera and had some things happen that were inexplicable,

Including,

You know,

It was so funny.

I came one day and I said,

What are those dinosaur looking plants?

And she said,

Oh,

That's peyote.

I'm growing them.

And I thought,

Oh my gosh,

They look so ancient.

They look probably like they looked a million years ago.

And she said,

Yes,

They do kind of have that look.

And then I came back a couple of weeks later and I said,

Where's,

Where are all those peyote plants?

And she said,

Well,

They're right in the same place.

She said,

That's funny because peyote doesn't like to be seen by certain people.

And so it'll hide.

And I think that's interesting that you couldn't see it.

And I said,

Oh,

Must not have wanted me to see it then.

I guess it was hiding in plain sight,

But it is these things,

They have life,

They have intention,

They have breath.

They're,

They're in this world with us.

They're our partners.

And we just don't,

Sometimes we don't treat them as well as we should.

Indeed.

Yeah.

And the,

The whole materialist reductionist,

You know,

Positivist worldview just erases them.

And is exhausting.

Yes,

It is.

It is.

Well,

I hope you loved this 200th episode of the podcast and my delightful and insightful interview with Dr.

Louis Mel Medrona.

Again,

I want to thank all of you for supporting me and for supporting this podcast.

I need to thank all of you who have texted me,

Sent a message or just reached out and said,

Hey,

I love your podcast.

It makes my heart happy.

As you can imagine,

It is a lot of work.

It is so much work,

But those words that you send me,

Those things that you tell me,

And then the fact that I get to meet such brilliant human beings like my guests this week,

Well,

All of it keeps me going.

So thank you everyone for the support and kindness and love that you've shown me over these last few years.

I hope to keep doing this for as long as I'm able and bringing you more people,

More miracles,

More stories that will help heal your hearts.

Thank you for listening.

And here's my one request.

Be like Dr.

Mel Medrona,

Believe in the power of healing and all the healing,

Whether it's going to a sweat lodge,

Whether it's going to a neighbor's house and sharing a cup of tea and telling each other the latest news in your lives,

Whether it's getting rid of those people in your life that are toxic and bringing in people that love you and want to cheer you on and support you,

Whether it's going on a walk every day or singing your favorite song in the shower,

Embrace all the modalities you can to heal your heart,

Heal your mind,

And heal your soul.

And if we all did just one act every day,

One act to help heal ourselves,

To make our hearts happier.

Can you even imagine how gorgeous this world would become?

How gorgeous the other people would become in this world,

The animals,

The plants,

The environment,

Everything.

We would just look at it with what kind of eyes?

Well,

Hopefully as Dr.

Mel Medrona suggests,

We'd all start looking at the world with Indian eyes.

And so with the ending of this 200th episode,

I wish that for all of us,

That we can wake up every day and look at the world with fresh eyes,

With eyes that appreciate it and love it and have so much gratitude for all the beauty that surrounds all of us.