Interview: Dr. Kate ~ Experiencing Samadhi And Timelessness!

Dr. Kate tells a story about herself, and in it she admits that she has always been a very linear thinker. She's a high achiever, someone who likes to get things done, but she's always willing to learn new things. So it was to her surprise, at a retreat in the middle of nowhere, that she experienced something so far outside of the realm of her knowledge, it shook her to the core!

Transcript

Hello,

Everyone.

I think those of you that know me,

But especially have been listening to this podcast for a while,

Know that I absolutely love having guests that are in the sciences who are willing to talk about things that are ineffable.

And Dr.

Kate Raines Goldie is exactly that.

She's a PhD trained business and cultural anthropologist,

AI keynote speaker,

TEDx speaker coach,

Business news tech,

And innovation columnist,

And is the creator of Super Connect,

Which is a proven tool to foster human connection,

Boost psychological safety,

Ignite curiosity,

And most of all,

Enable better conversations about difficult things.

But mostly what she and I talk about in this conversation,

You know,

Besides for the magical,

Miraculous part,

Is play.

And when I was interviewing her,

Behind her on the shelf,

Well,

There were all these Lego heads,

Giant Lego heads.

And so it was pretty charming to be looking at her and talking about these things while seeing these hilarious,

Funny heads behind her.

Now,

Dr.

Kate shares a story of something that's really mysterious and really beautiful.

And essentially,

Well,

I don't want to spoil it,

But I wanted to give you a little background about her miracle and just how not only mysterious these states of mind are,

But how probably with enough practice,

Most of us can attain them.

And specifically,

What she talks about is entering this period of timelessness,

Or as it's known,

Samadhi.

And so what Samadhi is,

Is a state of deep absorption,

Focus,

And stillness,

And meditation,

Often considered a peak experience of spiritual training.

And it's a state of consciousness where the mind is unified,

Calm,

And non-reactive,

Leading to a sense of bliss and enlightenment.

It's a Sanskrit word,

Meaning concentration,

Absorption,

Or to bring together.

And people who often experience this have this sense of timelessness,

Like they've gone beyond time,

Or time does not exist,

Or it falls away.

And it's really this,

I mean,

Some people might call it flow.

Some people might call it,

Well,

Samadhi.

And it's really this mysterious place.

It's almost beyond words to explain.

So we talk about this in this episode.

And once again,

It reminded me that not only the world,

But our very own internal workings,

Our brains,

Our minds,

Our hearts,

And how they all come together,

Well,

It's all incredibly mysterious.

So without further ado,

Here's my conversation with the absolutely fabulous Dr.

Kate Rains Goldie.

She invited me to come to one,

And I didn't really know what it was,

But I just said,

Okay,

I'll come.

And so we get there.

And I think it was just shortly before I,

I think I was packing and I was reading the materials.

And then I realized that it's,

There's no eating.

So it's like four days of fasting.

So I was like,

Okay.

So I was thinking like,

How are we going to eat?

Like for what we're doing?

How is this going to happen?

How are we going to get food?

I was like,

Okay,

Well,

That answers that question.

So I was like,

Okay,

This is fine.

I've never done that before.

My first question that I ask everybody is how do you self-describe?

So let's say you had to go to a conference and you have to get on stage and you're addressing 5,

000 people in this conference room and you have to introduce yourself.

How would you do that?

Well,

I usually get someone else to do it for me.

But I would say I'm professionally playful and professionally curious.

And I am all about celebrating the power of difference,

Of doing things differently and being different.

So I know actually,

That's so funny because I just for the last several months worked on the International Literary Festival.

And in some cases for the really big authors,

They would have one person get up to introduce,

Then another person to get up and say something else.

And then the author would come up and have their conversation with their moderator.

And so you're right.

Someone else would be introducing you.

And there's a psychology behind that actually.

So my business coaches,

When I was going through business coaching program,

They talk about the halo effect of having someone else.

So get the most authoritative person in the room with your audience to come and introduce you.

And that's a way to have them go,

Oh,

Okay,

Well,

That person,

It's just kind of human nature,

Right?

If that person thinks that that person is,

If person A thinks person B is great,

Then I'm going to think person B is great.

Oh,

I like that.

It's like algebra,

Right?

Yeah.

Well,

You know,

One of the things that really struck me when I was familiarizing myself with you and the work that you do is that you are a cultural anthropologist.

And that for me is fascinating.

So was that something you,

I mean,

Could you see the thread of becoming a cultural anthropologist when you were a kid?

Was this something that you kind of saw?

No,

Definitely not.

And this is,

I think,

Another reason why I love to get other people to introduce me because depending on who is asking,

It really makes a difference because I can be so many different things and there's so many things that I do and so many hats that I wear.

And that,

I actually didn't realize I was a cultural anthropologist,

Even though I actually literally have a degree in cultural,

Like in my PhDs,

Cultural anthropology and internet studies.

And so maybe two years ago when a good friend basically was like,

Well,

You're a cultural anthropologist.

So I was like,

Wait a second.

So it's,

I think helpful to also know what other people think,

Like what's the most interesting thing for them.

And that really varies.

So no,

I didn't,

I didn't actually think about,

Like I was,

I'm always,

I would say I'm fascinated by games and play and people and curiosity and technology,

But I'm not always like,

Not always a fan of technology.

Sometimes technology is not the answer.

So that's another way I describe myself is those things.

And I think it's that it's really the intersection of people and technology and community.

And so culture is a part of that.

And just always being fascinated by what we do as humans,

Because we're very fascinating.

And so yeah,

My fascinating when I was a kid,

Which may make sense now,

Given what I do with Lego and video games and the internet,

That was my obsession.

But again,

It was because of like,

What is the,

The,

Even with games,

What's the connection with,

With culture and people and bringing people together?

So yeah,

I guess it depends on like,

What angle you want to come at it from.

Yeah,

It's really interesting.

You know,

I've subscribed to Netflix for a number of years,

And now they're really pushing the games on Netflix that they're creating,

Which just annoys me to no end,

Because I'm like,

I don't want to play games online.

I,

I have the type of brain where online,

I get too overstimulated.

And then I can't actually do anything,

I get overwhelmed.

But in person,

You get me in front of Monopoly,

You get me in front of the game,

Sorry,

I'm really dating myself,

Right?

Because games have evolved.

But board games,

Card games,

I'm all about it.

Games online are a whole other kettle of fish.

Yeah,

And it's funny you say that,

Because I hate multiplayer games,

But I love in person games.

And so the games that I used to work on,

Were things like escape rooms,

Or like Pokemon,

Like artisanal craft Pokemon Go,

Things that were about,

It could have tech in it,

Like running through it,

But it wasn't about the tech,

It was like,

Facing other people rather than facing the phone the whole time.

And I loved what,

What would happen when,

When people would play these games together.

And that's how the connection of LEGO Series Play happened,

Was seeing that same thing in a much easier way,

An accessible way to get those results without having to build a whole game,

New game every single time I wanted to accomplish a new,

A new goal.

Yes,

I am all for anything,

Anything that gets us to actually look up from our phones,

Look up from our screens,

And actually talk to another human being.

I mean,

What a novel thought.

I'm,

I'm 54.

And so I remember the time when computers didn't really exist in every household.

And,

And when we got our computers in junior high,

It was this revelation.

And suddenly we had to take six weeks of very basic coding to sort of,

You know,

Prep us for the future.

But it is,

It is a little,

You know,

I have nieces and nephews and their entire life and their friends are on screens.

And it's very rare for them to look up and actually interact with other people.

And it's astonishing how quickly that happened.

Yeah.

Yep.

So,

Well,

You know,

When you were studying,

Well,

Cultural anthropology,

Which I find it so funny that your friend was like,

You're a cultural anthropologist.

And you're like,

Wait,

What,

What,

What,

What,

What,

What,

What was,

You know,

What did you learn that was completely astonishing to you?

I wouldn't say it was astonished.

The most,

The most,

I would say the most important thing that's like,

So it's so simple that it makes so much sense.

And it's really this idea that,

And it's interesting because one of the core tools of cultural anthropology is ethnography,

Which is basically from translated from the Latin,

It means like writing culture.

And the,

One of the core things of ethnography,

Which is interesting,

I'm teaching this in the university here.

I'm teaching this.

They brought me in to teach this course on stakeholder engagement,

Innovative approaches to stakeholder engagement.

And so ethnography is one of the tools.

So I'm teaching it,

But the thing that I think is the core about it isn't in the texts that we're using,

Which is a great text,

But it's not there.

But the core thing for me is we're really bad at self-reporting.

We're all about,

Like,

If you want to know the truth,

It's,

You watch what people do rather than what they say.

And that's what to me,

Ethnography is all about.

Because you're basically going and doing field work and watching what's going on.

And then you're asking people about it,

You know,

Talking,

Clarifying,

Like,

I saw this,

Is this what's going on?

And then one of the examples that I use in the class is the Aeron chair,

Which if anybody remembers during the dot-com bubble,

This was like,

I think it was $1,

000.

It was like the status symbol.

But the chairs,

It looks completely different than normal,

Like,

You know,

Cushioning chairs.

It's the one that's really mesh looking,

And it looks really ugly and kind of uncomfortable,

But it's really comfortable.

And so when they were talking to people about what kind of chair they want,

People said,

Oh,

I want like a really cushy chair,

Lots of cushioning,

And I want to be,

You know,

Really smooshy.

And then when they,

They watched people use those chairs,

They would actually get hot after one,

Start to fidget.

And so the mesh chair is actually like to solve the problem of getting hot.

But if we give people what they thought they wanted,

It's actually different.

And so there's so many times that that is,

Is true.

And so that to me is like the,

Yeah,

The core of what ethnography is all about.

And so,

You know,

Then getting them to do it again and talking to them about it.

So it's triangulating all those different things together.

And I think that's a really powerful tool.

And that was the tool I used in my PhD that was about Facebook and privacy,

That very serious,

Total opposite of what I do now,

But shows some of the power of,

Of ethnography in terms of seeing the future.

If you want to talk about that,

Totally unrelated to games and play,

But interesting in terms of,

Yeah,

What you can discover from watching what people do and say.

That's actually really,

Really fascinating.

I've,

You know,

I'm a huge fan of,

I mean,

Discovering,

Okay,

First of all,

You have to know,

I love cooking.

I love finding recipes,

I love baking,

All of that.

But I really love the history of food.

And Toni Tipton Martin created this,

She did this really deep dive on early African-American cooks and chefs from the time of slavery,

The ones where she could find old cookbooks or old notebooks.

And,

You know,

Sometimes inside would be a story of the person's day or how they were walking through the woods,

And they found this patch of,

You know,

Maybe asparagus and they harvested it.

And it was,

It so was about place and what emerges or what can emerge out of place and experience and,

And need in a lot of cases.

And I think about,

You know,

The work you're doing now,

Or some of the work,

Because you are so multifaceted.

It's just kind of mind blowing.

So I should say some of the work that you're doing now,

Which engages with play and curiosity,

And everyone needs to know that behind Dr.

Kate is a shelf with Lego giant Lego heads on it.

I mean,

Like the biggest Lego heads you've ever seen.

And so I'm curious,

How did your work that you're doing now with play and curiosity and Lego emerge out of what you were doing?

So I think I think it's always been there.

It's just um,

How,

How much it gets expressed.

So what I was trying to be a serious academic when I was doing my PhD,

And discovering all this stuff about privacy and Facebook,

And what Facebook was really about.

Back in this was,

I think,

2007 was when I started.

So Facebook was three and Facebook was like 20.

Now 2019 2021 21.

Yeah,

2004.

Because I was I wanted to do an ethnography study how people use what was then called the social web,

Which is now social media,

That's a long ago was,

But everybody was talking about Facebook,

And everybody was talking about privacy,

Although they weren't using those words.

But so I wasn't intending to,

To study that I was just fascinated by how the internet brought people together,

It didn't bring people together.

But the more that it got into this,

Oh,

Wow,

We're profoundly changing how we use the internet and privacy and all these things.

And no one seemed to be really as concerned as me.

That's when I started doing,

I was always interested in games and video games.

And that was like the thing my parents would,

You know,

Get,

They'd be like,

I wish you would stop doing that,

You know,

The games in the internet were like,

Please don't do that.

And that's my core to my career.

But,

Yes,

I was always,

Always interested in games.

And so at the same time,

It sort of was like this therapy for myself to cut to counter is like a counter,

You know,

If you do yoga,

It's like a counter posture.

And I Jane McGonigal,

Who was it wasn't very,

It wasn't,

She's pretty famous now.

She's sort of the gamification did much Ted Talks on gamification.

So she was in her early career,

And I was in New York for a conference.

And she was running a game called cruelty be kind,

Which is like a physical street game that you play by running around the streets of New York.

And that was my introduction into what was then called like alternate reality games or pervasive games or community games.

And so I just became fascinated with those and started working on those projects with some other folks and started creating my own as like a thing to balance out the seriousness of my PhD.

And it's really hard to be an academic as a young woman.

And I had this choice where it was like,

I could either keep trying to sog away at university on these like tenuous employment contracts.

And I basically said,

If you're not going to,

You know,

Be serious about keeping me here,

I'm gonna,

I'm gonna go do something else,

Like run away and join the circus.

And,

Yeah,

So I ran away and joined the circus and started a game company and was the first director of the games interactive program at the Film and Television Institute.

And so build up their games program and supporting other people.

So it's like this fighting doors moment where it was like,

It was I can go this really serious way and keep like being really sad and having tenuous employment or go and do this really fun thing and help other people have fun.

And it's kind of funny now because I'm still,

The university still bring me in to teach like special classes,

Short classes and short courses.

So I still get to have that teaching.

That thing that I love about teaching and being at university is the teaching and the learning.

So I still get to do that,

But still also get to play and make games.

And so I think it's just that thread.

And it's like how much of that is part what I do.

Thankfully,

It's always been a part and is much more part of it now.

Oh,

My God,

How fun.

I'm so jealous.

I'm so jealous.

This is amazing.

Also,

I just want to you know this already,

I'm sure,

But people love Legos,

Like love Legos.

And when I lived in Portland,

Oregon,

My neighbors every once in a while,

Well,

No,

I guess at Christmas more,

They would invest in this massive,

I don't even know how many pieces it was,

Giant,

Often it had a Star Wars theme.

They're always the Star Wars sets are huge,

The huge ones.

Yes,

Yes.

And they would invite me over after they had built the entire thing,

Which was huge.

And they were so excited.

And they,

I mean,

I don't even know how long it took them to do this.

But,

And then I went to visit a friend in Colorado.

And she said,

Oh,

My son,

He just finished his Lego Death Star.

And I was like,

Cool.

She's like,

Do you want to see it?

And I walk in and it's like,

It's so huge.

I was like,

What is happening?

This is amazing.

But you know,

The my mind is like,

That is a lot of work.

But they're like,

So fun.

Yeah,

I have to admit,

I'm not one of those people.

I'm more of like the freeform Lego,

Like,

You know,

Having those big piles of like,

I'd build it once and then take it apart and then just make something else entirely.

Okay,

Thank you.

I got a mad respect for those people who have the discipline.

I'm just like,

I'll build half of it.

And I'm off to something else.

Oh,

Yeah.

You know,

My parents,

The craziest they ever got for building games was Lincoln Logs.

Okay.

I vaguely remember.

Yeah,

They're so boring.

And you can just make cabins basically,

Or like,

You know,

I do remember this.

They're like logs that have little like notches.

Yes,

Yes.

Yes.

That's how crazy it got at my house.

So it was,

You know,

That,

As you can imagine,

You get very bored of that very quickly.

It's like,

Okay,

I can make a lot of square stuff or rectangular stuff.

And that's kind of it.

That's the end here.

Well,

I am curious,

Because I asked this question of every guest,

But did you grow up in a religious household?

And if so,

Has that evolved over time,

Your understanding if you have a connection to what's out there that we can't define?

How has it evolved over the years?

Oh,

That no one has ever asked me that.

And that's a great question.

Yeah,

No,

I was raised Anglican.

And my parents accidentally sent me to fundamentalist Christian camp,

Twice.

Where it was like,

Because I was also into Dungeons and Dragons,

Of course,

And they're like,

That's worshiping the devil.

And I had a First Nations friend that I met on the internet,

Because you could,

You know,

Meet interesting people back on the internet,

Back in the day.

And they were like,

Oh,

That's worshiping the devil,

Like just all this stuff.

It was like,

Well,

This is really out of alignment with my values.

And so that actually really pushed me away from Christianity.

I will say,

Though,

That I used to live behind this really cool church here in Fremantle in Western Australia.

And the Reverend is just this awesome badass lady who has piercings and short hair,

And she's vegan,

And she's adopted a kid that,

You know,

That is like,

Just kind of was there and needed some support.

And she was like,

That's what I'm going to do.

And she runs yoga classes.

And she's this awesome lady.

And when I would walk by the church to go,

You know,

Get my groceries,

Whatever,

And they'd be singing their hymns in there,

It was like,

I get the same feeling from when I because I'm probably closest to a Buddhist now,

Is kind of how I express that,

Or what,

You know,

There's a functionality in that,

Like,

I actually feel something from that.

And I remember going to church and not feeling anything.

But I would walk by and I'd hear them singing their hymns.

And it was like the same feeling of like hearing Buddhist monks chant or be in,

You know,

A situation where I have some friends who have a yurt and a weed belt,

Sort of sort of like the Outback,

Like the pre Outback here,

You know,

Doing some chanting in there.

So I was like,

Okay,

She must be doing something.

And I think when I started substituting the word love for Jesus,

Because when you hear people talk about Jesus,

And if you substitute love,

It's like that really is like,

Okay,

That makes sense to me.

So yeah,

I would say I'm probably not like a,

The closest thing is probably a Buddhist is to what I am now.

Yeah.

Okay,

Great.

I mean,

I am a panentheist,

Which means that I think everything sentient,

You could call it panpsychism,

That everything is alive and conscious.

And just waiting for us to initiate conversation or just be in relationship.

And so you know,

One of my favorite gods from the the old gods,

Because my father's Norwegian and Swedish is Loki,

Because Loki is a trickster.

Yeah,

I really,

Really resonate with any god that is out there like coyote,

In indigenous traditions,

Any god that is out there,

You know,

Where,

First of all,

Comes in to not humiliate you,

But maybe,

You know,

If you have a lot of hubris,

Deflate that bubble a little bit.

Also subvert expectations.

But there's also a lot of creativity and play in trickster.

Trickster is always getting in trouble because of trickster's curiosity,

Like always,

Always,

It's like Wile E.

Coyote in the States,

Always falling off the cliff,

Because the roadrunner is like,

Fooling the coyote every single time.

So tricksters always,

Always resonated with me and inside tricksters play creativity,

Curiosity,

Just,

You know,

Getting in trouble,

Maybe in hilarious ways.

And I just think that so resonates with the work,

You know,

Some of the work you're doing in the world right now.

And I,

This might be,

You know,

Self evident,

But I don't think it is new,

Because at some point,

As we get older,

We're kids,

We get older,

We mature,

You know,

Maybe even starting at age 20,

We think of play and curiosity as things that aren't needed that aren't necessary anymore.

Or that maybe the types of play change,

Maybe we don't nurture that enough in ourselves.

So why is play so important?

Yes,

I mean,

I think part of that is,

Is,

You kind of alluded to it already,

It's it's bringing ourselves back to what we've lost from being kids.

And I think it's something that so play is still a bad word.

And I use curiosity as a way into talking about play,

Because play is like radical curiosity,

Or it's a way of doing curiosity.

So when we play and even,

You know,

The neuroscience starting to show this as well,

Our brains are actually different.

And they're more elastic,

And we're able to be open to more possibilities.

And so there's this concept that I borrowed from game studies called the magic circle.

And so basically,

It's when we are playing when we're inside the magic circle,

Where the normal rules of the world don't apply,

We're able to do things that we wouldn't normally do outside the magic circle.

And so this is backed by developmental psychology,

Game studies,

Neuroscience,

There's all of this research now emerging around it.

But there's a little video snippet that I like to show in my keynotes,

Which is,

I did a games workshop at Deakin University in Melbourne,

And teaching a bunch of academics about games,

Game design,

And kind of looking at the future of experiential technologies.

And some very hands on.

So of course,

It involved,

We had to go outside and play a game.

And so to win the game,

You had to hold hands and spin around and pretend to be a helicopter is basically this like,

This card that they drew that required them to do it.

But the video is just them doing that,

Like holding hands,

Like in front of,

You know,

In the courtyard in front of all the students,

Potentially their colleagues,

And they're spinning around and holding hands and making these ridiculous helicopter noises.

And the reason I show this is because like,

If I said,

Okay,

We're gonna go outside and you're gonna hold hands and spin around and pretend to be a helicopter,

There's no way they would have done it.

But because it was like,

Part of a game,

It was like,

Safe for them to do that.

So the when we do that,

When we're playing,

We are able to be more bold and brave and try new things.

And it's like failure becomes.

So Amy C.

Edmondson,

Who is sort of the grandmother of psychological safety,

She really popularized the term.

When we're when we're in the magic circle,

And when we're feeling safe,

We can do what she describes as failure,

Failure becomes useful information,

Negative,

Negative,

Useful information rather than something bad,

Something we can learn from.

So reframes failure,

And it helps us to connect with each other.

So all of these things,

When people are playing,

You see,

You see them doing it,

Even if you watch kids play in the playground,

They they're playing a game,

And iterating the rules and trying something new.

And it's like,

Oh,

It's not failure.

They don't see it as failure.

They don't see it as like,

Let's try something new.

They're not scared to do it.

So it allows for all these new possibilities.

And when I'm thinking about,

You know,

Like Lego series play,

Of course,

There's the word serious in there,

Because otherwise,

We wouldn't take it seriously.

But when people are creating with Lego together,

And this is just to clarify,

Because it's not,

You know,

We're not building the Death Star.

It's not perfect.

It's not from instructions.

It's totally unlike what most people experience of Lego,

You're building metaphor and story and feelings and emotion.

In doing that people are able to,

To access things and do things and express things they wouldn't normally.

One of my students recently called what you create in the Lego series play session,

A neutral island.

So it's like I can express myself with this neutral island of expense.

It's a way to to take something else in your brain and visualize it and also just like take it away from depersonalizing it as well.

And so the things that come out from these sessions,

Like people share stuff that they've never shared before I've had one person after just building one thing completely change your business.

It's incredible what happens.

It's like totally transformative.

And seems so simple,

Right?

It's just like Lego,

But maybe that's the power of it.

So it's just the stuff that happens.

And I feel,

You know,

It's similar to my,

My meditation or my spiritual practices.

It's like,

I'm not,

I'm just there,

Like holding the space,

Like something else is happening.

It's and it's just like,

Unlike any other facilitation method that I've ever used.

Wow.

You are,

You're creating a channel for joy and laughter and creativity and spaciousness and generosity of spirit to come through.

Wow.

Have you ever watched Dispatches from Elsewhere?

Have you heard of that show?

That name does ring a bell,

But I okay.

It came out a couple years ago.

It's I think it's on AMC now,

Maybe.

Anyway,

I loved it.

And it's based on in the early 2000s,

A real world game that happened on the West Coast.

I believe it's in San Francisco.

And it was a whole bunch of people,

Lots of artists,

Lots and lots of artists that got through to do this to create this massive because when you think about when you watch the show,

You really understand the scale.

To create this real world game,

Where,

You know,

Basically,

You'd be walking down the street,

And there would be one of those,

A page on a lamppost tape to lamppost,

And it'll say,

Communicate with dolphins telepathy,

And it'll have the number at the bottom,

Then you walk to another block,

And it would say,

Become impervious to everything with our special ammunition,

Ammunition,

Like repulsing vest or something.

And but the pamphlets,

The things that were hanging on the lamppost were so bizarre,

And,

And strange that,

You know,

Most people walked by and thought,

Oh,

This is someone's weird idea of a joke.

But there were some people that grabbed the number called it,

And then they were automatically brought into the game,

Where they went to an office had this little induction ceremony in this office,

And then were launched into the rest of the game with everyone else.

And one of the things,

Because in you know,

They did a documentary film on this.

And they interviewed some of the players.

And one of the players said something that was so fascinating to me.

They said,

Do you know how when you go into a movie,

And you watch this movie,

And it's fiction,

And it's so beautiful,

And it moves you so much,

It kind of changes your life.

And then you walk out of the movie theater,

And everything is brighter.

The entire world has changed.

Everything is shifted.

And it's like,

The hope and beauty of the world is just so apparent,

And readily available to you.

And they were like,

That's what it was like being in this game.

It like lifted their level of awareness of joy of community building a participation of life being an adventure.

And it changed these people's lives.

Now it was also millions and millions and millions of dollars to put this thing on.

And I think it was,

It lasted for about a year,

Maybe a year and a half.

Which still is a lot of people.

I mean,

One of the things that happened was you went to this pay phone,

The voice on the phone said,

Just start dancing.

And then a Sasquatch would appear out of nowhere and dance with you and give you the next,

You know,

The next thing to do in the game.

So a lot of it was just really joyful and silly.

And I think that is what adults miss.

You know,

Life becomes so serious,

It becomes,

And rightfully so for a lot of people,

Rightfully so.

But I think we should all make room and time for play and being silly.

Because it's okay if we make mistakes.

It's okay if we fail.

But there's such a panic and a terror around making mistakes and having other people see or even failing.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Totally.

And that Gordon Neufeld,

Dr.

Gordon Neufeld,

Who's a developmental psychologist,

Who's done some work with Gabor Maté,

They wrote a book together,

Who folks may recognize Gabor Maté.

Yeah,

Yeah,

He was recently here,

You know,

Very famous Canadian.

As a Canadian,

I'm,

You know,

Proud to have him as a fellow countryman,

Countrywoman,

Country person.

But they wrote a book together called Hold On To Your Kids.

But yeah,

So I spoke to Dr.

Gordon Neufeld on my podcast back during COVID,

When it was like,

How are we going to imagine the new future?

And so he talks about how play is like this place for us to,

It's like true rest for our emotions,

We can process our emotions.

And so it's like,

It is actually like a mental health thing.

And he talks about how during COVID,

Like during the worst lockdowns,

He would,

Him and his wife to stay connected and healthy and happy,

Would do things like paint together and make music together.

And so it is,

It isn't just like a thing that we should do.

It's,

You know,

He talks about it being like,

As important as,

You know,

Exercise or meditation.

It's like something that we need to do as humans.

And Peter Gray,

Who's sort of a colleague of Neufeld and Maté,

Looking at what's called play deficit.

So if you don't play enough as a kid,

There's a strong link between that and becoming a violent criminal.

So that's how fundamental it is for us to play.

You know,

Not to say that that's what's going to happen,

Right?

If we don't play as grown-ups,

That's what's going to happen.

But it just shows you how important play is to be a human,

To be a good,

Healthy,

Happy human.

So it's definitely a thing that is more than just you know,

I think we feel guilty about playing or feel guilty about spending time not being serious,

But it is actually really important.

And that's what's an excuse to not feel bad about playing.

Oh yeah.

Oh my gosh.

Well,

My childhood was not very easy and I had to be the adult in my home.

I was the oldest of the kids,

So I really didn't get a chance to play.

It was just insane stress from the age of three or four for lots of different reasons.

And it was no one's fault.

You know,

It just what needed to happen.

And my ex-partner made a comment,

We were together because I said,

I am the only like 45 year old person or 47 year old person I know who's like completely goofy and silly.

And I'm like ready to jump in the mud.

And he said,

Well,

Yeah,

I mean,

Of course,

You weren't allowed to have a childhood.

He's like,

You're having your childhood now.

And now you get to play and have fun and be silly.

And I'm like,

I kind of love that because I love being this age and being ridiculous and being silly and just being feeling free,

I guess,

You know,

Not constrained by the expectations of others or not caring about the expectations of others.

And it is just it's psychologically so powerful to have that period of time now in midlife.

It's really kind of astonishing and also helps me with the wisdom I've accrued in my life,

Helps me to understand the really fertile soil.

Everybody keeps talking about midlife.

Oh,

My God,

You're old.

You know,

Just pack it in.

We're in a youth obsessed culture like life is over.

Give up.

But being as silly and playful as I am,

I understand the rich soil that I have to cultivate and curate beauty for others or beauty for myself.

And also,

I appreciate the freedom that I have just intellectually.

I'm like,

I am so lucky because I see a lot of people around me who are so miserable and so unhappy,

But they they don't even allow themselves to think of playing or being silly.

Yeah.

And thank you for sharing that story,

Because I think I had a similar and or not dissimilar childhood.

And maybe that's why,

You know,

Very,

Very serious and very serious for many,

Many years.

And maybe,

You know,

That's why we love play so much now is it something we didn't get to do and we value it.

And I think there is a freedom of,

You know,

Middle age,

Right,

Especially like middle aged women.

Although it's funny to think that we're like,

Oh,

It's like a weird,

Strange thought.

But yeah,

It's.

I don't know,

Maybe it's us coming into our power in a different way,

Because play is really powerful,

The things that they can do.

Right.

And it's deceptive and it's simplicity to yeah,

Power,

The power that we can get through simplicity and joy.

I mean,

I'm I'm just going to tell you,

I'm shameless in that when I meet a new person,

I mean,

I have very good intuition,

But I have realized recently that my default is can I play with this person?

Can we have fun?

Can we hang out and be silly?

And if not,

You will be an acquaintance.

But if you can play with me,

We're going to like have some serious fun.

And I'm going to introduce you to everybody else who wants to play.

And we're all going to have some serious fun.

It's so important in building.

It's funny you say that because so I had a dating project.

I'm currently writing a book about this,

But I went on 50 first dates.

And this is actually how Super Connect,

Which is my flavor of like a serious play,

Came into the world.

Because the dating methodology I was using just required going on,

Like accepting a good invitation.

If it was a good date,

You would go on it,

Even if you it's almost the guy.

As long as you felt safe,

And at least you were neutral,

You didn't have to be like,

Wow,

That guy is super hot.

It was just your neutral and you feel safe.

It's a good invitation,

Then you would go and it was part of like,

If you're making bad choices in dating,

It resets your man picker.

But I was going on all these dates,

And I was getting so bored.

And so I just done my Lego serious play certification.

And I brought I had Lego in my bag,

So I was giving demos to people.

And so of course,

I was like,

Okay,

Well,

You know,

I,

When I play Lego and do Lego serious play with,

You know,

The business context,

Somehow we become friends.

So I wonder if the same thing will happen on dates.

And it did,

It worked.

But what I found really interesting to your point about around,

You know,

Play is like a way to know someone's going to be your person.

When I would invite people to play,

You're basically saying,

Do you want to be vulnerable with me?

And so it was really telling when people would say no.

Um,

Because it's like,

You're,

Well,

If you're,

Well,

One,

What are you gonna do with me if you don't want to play?

Like,

Come on,

You know,

Like,

Look at my house.

It's full of Lego.

But also,

It's,

You know,

It's just it would,

You could tell that they're not like in the place that they're wanting a serious relationship,

Because that requires vulnerability.

And so that was a really interesting thing that came out of that,

That discovery of like,

Play as vulnerability.

And,

Yeah,

That is fascinating.

Okay,

I just got to tell you,

I didn't even think about taking it to that next level of dating,

Which is,

I'm so glad not to date.

And I just don't care if I ever date again.

It's so nice to just be like,

Alone with my never do it again.

I found my guy.

And that's it.

I'm like,

If you stopped existing,

I'm just gonna be single the rest of my life.

And that's it.

Good.

Well,

You know,

Before I get to the meat of the podcast,

Which a lot of this has just been meat for me.

So you did a TED Talk.

And I always am so intrigued by TED Talks,

Partially because I'm terrified of getting up in front of people and speaking.

How did this happen?

What did you speak on?

And were you terrified?

Yes.

Well,

Of course,

I had to speak about games.

So it was called what games can be.

And it was,

Very much what we've talked about.

But it was,

I think it was 2010.

So quite some time ago now.

And so I hadn't got it got into Lego series play yet.

But it was basically talking about all the things we can do with games that are beyond just having fun.

And yeah,

It was,

I remember,

So if you ever watch a TED or TEDx talk,

There's that red dot.

And I think it was first year that they did it,

The one in Perth.

And so I think they hadn't really calibrated things properly.

But I remember standing there,

And I couldn't see the audience at all.

And it was just like in this white,

Just circle,

Like,

You know,

You're like getting abducted by aliens.

So I couldn't see anybody,

But I could just like,

Kind of see like outlines of people being pretty close to me.

And my leg was was like shaking.

I've never had that happen before.

And it was just shaking.

I was just thinking,

Can they see?

Can they see that in the front row?

And when the video came out,

I couldn't watch it for a year,

Because I was like,

Oh,

My God,

It's gonna be horrible.

When I finally did,

I was like,

Oh,

Actually,

It was pretty good.

But yeah,

It was it was probably the scariest talk that I've ever done.

But I think somehow after that,

Maybe it was like,

You know,

Having the scariest one,

It was like everything else,

Like I still get nervous before I go on stage.

But I used to a long time ago,

I used to get panic attacks before I would speak.

So it's not something that comes naturally to me at all.

But yeah,

That was definitely like peak,

Peak scariness.

I was gonna say congratulations on just facing that fear and walking towards it versus running away screaming,

Because I always have a,

You know,

Running away screaming thing.

And then I catch myself and I'm like,

No,

Turn around.

It's okay,

Whatever this is,

You can do it.

Whatever the story is,

That's out there in the zeitgeist about you not having permission to do this or you not being capable is it's not really your story.

And it's from something else.

So maybe just ignore it and move it along.

And so that's,

You know,

It's helped me.

Quite honestly,

I don't know if you experienced this,

But having a podcast and being a guest on other podcasts has helped me as well,

Speaking wise and thinking on my feet,

So that I can be a valuable guest and participate.

I think of every podcast interview is play,

Frankly,

Because a I'm meeting someone new,

And you never know what they're gonna say.

And it's always fun.

It is always fun.

I hope I hope it feels fun to you.

I guess I just put that on.

Yeah,

No,

I think that's actually really great advice.

And I do a bit of speaker coaching.

And I was I was a speaker coach for TEDxPerth as well.

And I think,

You know,

Having come from that,

It being terrified of speaking,

It makes it easier to teach other people how to not be terrified.

And one of the things I tell them,

Is to do podcasts,

Get on to pod match and do podcasts.

Because it's a really great way to just practice in a playful way.

And also,

Just to have interesting conversations with interesting people.

And I think just the way that I think I got over it was when I was doing my PhD,

They have this weird thing where you're somehow qualified to teach.

So you just start and,

You know,

Teach the undergrads,

The undergrads,

The captive audience.

And so it was like,

Here,

Can you go teach this course,

Like once a week for 12 weeks?

Oh,

And we have the curriculum is really old.

So can you update it?

And it was kind of just like,

You know,

I had to do it every week and nothing bad happened.

That really helped.

And improv also really helped.

You know,

Similar thing.

It's like,

If you've ever done improv,

You know that you basically get into these really embarrassing situations with other people also getting into embarrassing situations,

And you're in it together.

And you're like,

Well,

I've done the most embarrassing thing that I could do in terms of public speaking.

And I didn't die,

And it's okay,

And I can handle it.

And so that was,

I think it's just almost like exposure therapy.

Just keep practicing.

That's amazing.

That's scary.

Yes,

Yes.

And the other thing that I think is particularly powerful about Podmatch and the platform that they've created,

Is that,

Frankly,

I can see the web of connection that is spreading all over the globe with the people that I know,

And that I'm meeting.

And now they know there's someone in New Mexico that they can come and hang out with.

And wherever they are,

They're like,

Hey,

Come hang out.

You know,

It's actually been really,

Really powerful,

The web of connection that's been created.

And really beautiful,

Too.

And I think we need more of that,

Frankly.

I'm sure you would agree.

But I would love to ask you the main question of the podcast,

Which is,

I am here for a story or even more than one story that you'd like to share around something magical,

Miraculous,

Something mysterious that might have happened in your life,

Where there's no explanation.

I've had everything from people who've had near-death experiences to mothers that have changed people's lives,

To best friendships.

So whatever you'd like to share,

I would love to hear it.

Okay.

So maybe unrelated,

Maybe in the telling of it,

I'll realize the connection.

But even though I do a lot of work in play and have a PhD in research evidence-based science,

All that stuff,

The other side of me that I bring in and have only started really telling,

Like,

I'll tell certain people if I know that they're ready to hear it.

But the general consumption has been more recent.

But I've also,

For 20 years,

Been practicing Qigong and Reiki and nearly completed a year-long energy healing certification.

So I've done all the coursework,

But just need to finish my practical.

But that's like bringing shamanism together with biocranial sacral massage.

And so all of these kind of esoteric practices,

But really powerful when you bring them together with facilitation.

So I spend a lot of time doing interesting things,

Let's say.

And so one of the interesting things was a few years ago,

I had a friend who she does these for nature retreats.

And she invited me to come to one.

And I didn't really know what it was.

But I just said,

Okay,

I'll come.

And so we get there.

And I think it was just shortly before I think I was packing and I was reading the materials.

And then I realized that it's there's no eating.

So it's four days of fasting.

So I was like,

Okay,

How are we going to eat?

Like for what we're doing?

How is this going to happen?

Why are we going to get food?

I was like,

Okay,

Well,

That answers that question.

So I was like,

Okay,

This is fine.

I've never done that before.

But it was a basically,

We go out to this amazing land.

And that was how I met my friends who have the property in the wheat belt,

This off-grid property.

So that was the one connection was meeting them and getting to hang out with them.

And you were talking about every,

You know,

Everything having a spirit.

So there's this amazing rock there that anyway,

That's a whole other thing.

But there's just this amazing magical land where magical things happen.

So we go there and the it's called nature quest.

I think it's a methodology methodology that she uses that involves nature is kind of like a meditation and healing practice.

So it involves basically being by yourself,

Not eating for three or four days.

So you're out secluded in the wilderness,

Basically sitting on a rock.

You know,

There's,

There's nothing,

You just have a sleeping bag,

A tent,

And that's it.

And I think by day three,

I just woke up one morning.

And I just was like lying on this rock.

And I just woke up and just sat up.

And I just stared at this tree in front of me.

And just time,

The time stopped existing.

And I could tell that the time had passed after maybe three hours,

Three or four hours,

Because the sun had moved or the shadows had moved.

But it was just like there was the noise,

The talking in my head,

There's just complete silence,

It was like time,

Thoughts,

Nothing existed.

And I've never had that happen to me before since.

And it was just amazing.

It sounds like it.

Well,

I was just thinking that sounds like a vision quest.

They do those in the desert Southwest,

I mean,

Really all over the world where you go somewhere without food for three or four days,

And then something happens,

You encounter an animal or anything,

Really,

And you have this kind of revelation.

But it sounds like you had this deep connection with this tree to where you lost your sense of self.

Would that be correct?

Um,

I think it was definitely losing my sense of self.

I don't know if the tree was just a way for me to know that time had passed.

And it wasn't particularly.

Yeah,

But it was definitely there's,

Yeah,

That that my sense of self had stopped existing.

But I believe it is based on on vision quests.

That is where it's rooted in,

But it's not.

And from indigenous traditions,

I have been sent home one of those by my parents that was sort of a culturally appropriated version of it.

It was a bit problematic.

But that's a whole other story.

But I yeah,

So I am familiar with with those as well.

And this is,

I think,

More of a yes,

Similar aligned,

But different.

Okay,

Wait,

Your parents sent you on one when Yeah,

My parents had this thing about sending me off in the summers to random things that were not so great,

And I never had any choice in it.

So this may be part of my life.

You know,

Let's play to to recover from this,

Because I was probably I think the first time they sent me off on something I was about 11.

But this is I think 13.

And it was run,

I found out recently,

I was talking to my mom about it,

That it was the first time that they ran it.

And it was,

It was a non indigenous person running it.

So I think there is a lot of pride.

And this is back in like the early 90s.

When you know,

We would do things like that.

I mean,

I guess we still do.

But it was more permissible back then.

I was gonna say,

Hey,

Wait a second.

This might be a bit problematic,

Like not just from cultural appropriation.

But I think also just from a,

You know,

Connection to that,

There's just so much energetically,

That is important as well.

And I just found the whole experience really traumatic.

Where's this nature quest one was actually really great.

My god,

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Sorry,

I got sent to Girl Scout camp a couple of times,

Which,

You know,

Was pretty benign.

You know,

It wasn't like nothing weird happened.

I mean,

Yes,

Something weird did happen.

But I don't talk about it.

And then later on,

My father sent me to a horse camp up in Wisconsin for two weeks.

And yeah,

As a kid,

You don't really have a choice.

No one says,

Hey,

Do you want to do this?

They're just like,

Hey,

Go pack a bag because you're leaving tomorrow for a week,

Two weeks.

And it's sort of sometimes it's a good camp.

And sometimes it's you're like,

Well,

Who was what is happening here?

So I like to think parenting has evolved a bit since then.

There's a bit more like,

You know,

Consent sometimes,

I hope.

Yeah.

But what I think is really fascinating is that your parents was this in Canada?

Yeah.

Okay.

So this is pre internet,

Right?

So your parents are finding all of these things everywhere,

Not on the internet,

Right?

Well,

I'm just trying to remember because I got on the internet really early.

And I remember part of the reason that they would send me off on these things is because they wanted me to stop using the internet.

So I can't,

I think I got on when the X files came out.

So that was probably like,

Yeah,

When I was about 13.

So this could have been one of the ones that was in reaction to it.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Actually,

No,

It was.

No,

Maybe not.

I'm pretty sure it was,

But I'm not sure.

But yeah,

They wouldn't have necessarily been using the internet to find it.

So I'm not sure how.

I'm not sure how they found these wacky that they sent me on.

Yeah,

That's,

That's so funny.

Because I think every kid has had that experience where it's like summer comes and Oh,

Summer camp.

And do we look forward to it?

Do we dread it?

But also,

You get 10 stars just for loving the X files.

I assume you love the X files.

Of course,

You have to love the X files.

Every once in a while when I want to just have some comfort food in the form of TV,

I start X files over from the beginning.

So because it's just so familiar.

And it's like,

It's an earlier time.

You know,

I will.

I'm like,

Looking at what their phones look like.

And I'm like,

Good God.

What was going on back then?

I can't even believe these people are carrying these things around.

Well,

That that is actually really fascinating,

Because it's my understanding,

Practicing qigong,

The Reiki work that you're doing,

When you do these trainings,

When you do this work,

It allows those energies,

Those spirits,

Those ancient gods,

Whatever you want to call them,

They start to wake up to the fact that you want to have a conversation and co create with them.

And so,

You know,

Maybe they lend you their power,

Maybe they teach you to channel your power,

But it's it's a really sacred,

Sacred work.

And kudos to you for inhabiting it and going out and getting the training that you need.

But also,

You know,

In these spaces as well,

Kind of inexplicable things can happen.

And they can be scary.

And so that takes a lot of bravery.

So yay for you on multiple fronts.

Well,

Well,

Thank you.

And I think it's,

It's also I think,

You know,

It's requires bravery,

But I think also creates safety for people as well to have to have those modalities because the when I'm doing the facilitation using super connector,

Like a serious play,

I'll do the same practices that I'll do.

I would call it an energetic facilitation,

Not energetic healing,

But energetic facilitation.

So I'll do the same practices to prepare as if I was going to be doing an energy facilitation,

Energy healing session before doing the Lego serious play session.

And I noticed that it's,

And if I also get other people to do that as well.

So when I'm starting to teach it now,

I call it energetic safety.

So I'm teaching other people serious play and super connect.

There's a module called energetic safety.

And when I practice,

But also get the other people in the room to practice as well,

They I'll notice that the energy at the end of the day is a lot lighter.

So I don't feel as blasted.

And so there's,

You know,

Level one is I do it.

Level two is we,

We all do it.

And then that's where you notice the difference.

And so bringing that in,

It's like the,

The energy is,

Is lighter and people have more energy,

But also I find just the things that happen and the things that have been reported to me,

Like I'll do,

Sometimes I'll do a session for 800 people at a conference and people will come and tell me after the things that happened at their table.

So I'm just at the front,

You know,

Doing my thing.

And people will come and tell me like this happened at our table.

This person shared this thing that like this deeply personal thing that they've never shared before.

And it's,

It's,

You know,

It's like this thing that is,

I'm just there holding space,

But it allows for this.

And it's,

And some people say,

You know,

I can tell it's not just about the Lego.

And that's the thing is it's not,

It's like the entry point that makes you feel comfortable.

But yeah,

All of those things I think allow for this something to happen for people if they're open to it,

For this really transformative stuff to happen.

When people feel safe,

That's what,

That's what can happen.

Oh,

Yeah,

It's,

It's like alchemy.

I mean,

I think you can say that if you're in a room of very,

Very grumpy curmudgeons,

The energy in that room is going to be very different than if you're in a room full of people who want to laugh and have fun and,

And just enjoy the moment.

Do you think,

For my final question,

Do you think that everybody has the capacity for play?

I mean,

I think it's just part of being human.

It's just,

I think,

Yeah,

To refer to the question,

It's can everybody remember,

You know,

Can we,

I think we all start out playing and then we forget.

And I know this because when I teach game design,

When you teach it to adults and to kids,

It takes the kids like two seconds to learn the basics of it,

Whereas adults,

You have to spend extra,

It's like twice as long to get them back into that mindset.

But yeah,

I think it's just remembering,

Right?

It's just remembering how to ride a bike,

If you're ready to learn how to do it.

It's more,

Do you want to?

Does everybody want to?

Maybe not.

And you know,

We all,

We have reasons for not wanting to at the time.

But yeah,

If you wanted to,

Yeah,

Everybody can play.

That's,

That's what we do as humans,

Right?

Okay,

I love how generous and kind you are.

Because I would be like,

Hello,

Person over there.

Why aren't you playing?

What is happening?

Get over here and play with all of us.

And you're so compassionate and loving.

And you're like,

In your own time,

This is open for you.

When you're ready.

We're,

We're ready for you.

And so I think maybe I'm a little bit of a militant player,

Potentially.

Is there such a thing?

Well,

Thank you.

And I think maybe it's because I got when I was doing my PhD,

And all that Facebook privacy stuff,

I got really serious,

Right?

So it was like,

I know what it's like,

Like,

If you look at photos of me being a serious academic,

You get,

I just had a totally different vibe.

And it was like,

I had to come back to being playful.

So I think I maybe can have the compassion,

Because it's like compassion for myself to know that,

You know,

Sometimes we do that,

Because we have to,

And we think,

Well,

We don't have to,

But we think we have to.

And yeah,

It's always having that invitation there,

That it's there when we're ready to come back to it.

I hope you appreciated this conversation,

And you got a sense of Samadhi,

A sense of timelessness.

It seems like it stole up upon Dr.

Kate,

Somewhat unawares,

And she got lost in this time.

You know,

The old poets might call this period that Dr.

Kate experienced a reverie.

I think there are so many cultures all over the world,

And the words used to describe these experiences are all different.

But whatever you may call them,

Whether it's Samadhi,

Timelessness,

Or reverie,

It's all very mysterious,

And I think magical,

Because where do we go?

And in that place are all things possible.

I'm so grateful to Dr.

Kate for spending some time with me,

For sharing her stories,

For laughing along with me,

And explaining or sharing about an experience that no doubt deeply changed her life.

To read more about Dr.

Kate,

And the work she's doing in the world,

And the work about play,

And fun,

And curiosity,

And all those delicious things,

Well,

There will be a link in the episode show notes.

You know me,

And I'm all for more play.

I'm all for more fun.

This world needs it,

And I think we all need it too.

In essence,

I think by listening to this podcast,

You are entering my playroom,

Where I'm encouraging us all to dream bigger,

Understand this world is far more grand than we can see with our regular eyes,

And that mystery and promise await for each and every one of us.

Thank you for listening,

And here's my one request.

Be like Dr.

Kate.

I mean,

You already know what I'm gonna say.

Play,

Have fun,

Have curiosity,

Build the Death Star,

Or do whatever floats your boat as far as playing and being in this world.

And sometimes it's gonna mean we're gonna get off our tablets,

Our phones,

Our computers.

We're actually gonna go out into the other world,

Into the outer world,

And meet people,

Have real conversations,

Do silly things,

And maybe laugh so very much.

So be like Dr.

Kate.

Go out and play,

Build community,

And find others to play with,

And have fun,

And be silly,

And I suspect that within no time whatsoever,

You're gonna wake up every day,

And you're gonna think,

My gosh,

This world is so bright.

This world is so beautiful,

And I can't wait for the very next excuse to be silly,

And play,

And have fun.