Interview: Chris ~ Magic Happens When You Least Expect It!

Chris tells the story of the loss of his beloved cousin, and how the art he was working on in those dark days saved him. But really, it was what happened on the day of the celebration of his cousin's life-what he saw that day changed everything!

Transcript

Hello everyone,

And welcome back to another episode of the Bite-Sized Blessings podcast.

I just wanted to revisit why this podcast is in the world.

I wanted,

During the pandemic,

To remind people that life is both mysterious and beautiful.

And I thought I would reach out to everyone I knew to see if they had had experiences that they couldn't explain.

Well,

Soon people were coming out of the woodwork with all sorts of stories of magic,

Of miracles,

Of things that were totally mysterious.

And so I'm so very excited to introduce to you this week another dear friend of mine from my hometown where he teaches art,

Chris Hodge.

And Chris is completely hilarious.

I adore him.

He's the bee's knees.

Let me read you a little bit about Chris.

He's been working on art since he was very young,

And he incorporates various symbols and thoughts into his artwork.

His body of work has been described as obsessive narrative,

Articulating his imagination while allowing for the work to take a life of its own.

He has the best sense of humor,

Is a sci-fi fan,

And in general,

Just an incredible human being.

I was so very grateful that he agreed and said yes to being on the podcast.

And he did say at the end of our interview that he had lots more stories to share.

So hopefully in the future,

He and I will get together again and create another podcast.

I can't wait to introduce him to you.

So here he is,

Here I am,

And another episode of the podcast.

My cousin,

Who I look at as being very young,

33,

Had passed away earlier this year.

And I was already going through some things.

I was already feeling sad about some other,

Like,

Interpersonal things.

And,

Like,

It just it really kind of hit me.

You know,

I'm like,

Oh,

My God,

What the heck?

I can put it.

She's like.

She's the first of,

Like,

My generation to pass or like my I put group people group,

You know,

Like she's my cousin.

And I it was like a real shock.

Who are you as a human being?

If you had to introduce yourself to a group of people,

How would you do that?

Well,

You know,

I think like obviously I'm an art teacher and I think I identify with that like quite a bit beyond that.

I'm also like an artist.

I think probably like my my main driver in my life since I was like very young,

Like really like ever since I can remember.

I was making artwork and it was for me a way of like connecting with people.

I really went through this like phase of where I just wouldn't talk to anybody like I was very quiet,

Incredibly quiet.

That was like the one thing,

Like the one thing that I was like pretty good at.

My parents always encouraged it a lot,

You know,

To like create art.

I just kind of felt like it was sort of like who I am,

You know,

And like how I connect with other people.

So it's been like a significant part of my life ever since I can remember.

And it's sort of a way that I was able to,

I guess,

In some ways,

Like break out of my shell as I got older,

You know.

And I think art's interesting because,

You know,

Sometimes we don't have the words for the thoughts that we have,

You know,

Like I'll have like these these thoughts.

And I don't really know how to express them through like words or maybe maybe it's that I feel shy or where I just can't quite articulate what I want to say.

And I feel like maybe I can do that a little better through the artwork that I make,

You know,

So like that another form of communication.

And there's a really funny story.

I mean,

With you and me,

Because I was back,

You know,

Taking care of my mother for six months and a dear friend took me to an art show in Batavia,

Illinois.

And I walked up to one of your pieces at the show and I I was telling her,

I said,

Oh,

My gosh,

Chris Hodge.

I've been following him for gosh,

We were talking so long ago,

But stopped and I've been following him and I love his art.

It's amazing.

And she said,

Oh,

Well,

Do you want to meet him?

And she's like,

He's literally right over there.

And so I walked up to you and we got to have this really sweet conversation.

I got to actually meet you in real life.

And then I looked at Messenger and the last time we'd messaged was 10 years before.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Messaging 10 years before I finally got to meet you.

And and it seems like when I was back home,

Everywhere I turned,

You were having a gallery show and your pieces were up somewhere.

You must just be so impressed with yourself.

I would be.

I don't know if I'd say that.

Yeah,

I I think it's important to like,

I really do feel like I have things that I want to say to my artwork.

And so that to me is more important,

Really,

You know,

And to do the shows and to to make the posts.

And,

You know,

It's like I want to,

Like,

Share these things.

And that's also why,

Like,

When I go to,

Like,

Make prints,

I try to,

Like,

Make those prints as inexpensive as possible,

Because it's more important to me that people have the artwork and appreciate it and,

Like,

Look at it and,

Like,

Put it up on a wall,

Maybe put up on a wall that's nice if they do just so it can be like a part of their life,

You know.

And I I'm like less concerned about the money.

Like I said,

I'm an art teacher,

So I,

You know,

I'm not saying it's a great wage,

But,

You know,

I'm doing all right.

And it's more about like,

You know,

Sharing,

Like sharing my my vision for things,

You know,

If that makes sense.

Vision and thoughts,

You know.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And and you do one of the scariest jobs because I don't think I could ever do it in ten million thousand years,

Which is you teach in a high school.

Yeah,

I do.

I could not.

I'm sorry.

You're so brave.

Well,

It was really hard during the pandemic.

And,

You know,

I feel like I like didn't have the same connection that I would normally have like with students.

And it's been there have been some challenges,

I think,

To just myself getting older and like not maybe seeing things in the same way.

That I used to.

And,

You know,

The weird thing about like teaching is that,

You know,

When you're young,

You're like not especially with high school.

You're not that far apart like as is as far as like the culture goes.

Right.

So like there's a lot of shared culture there.

But,

You know,

I continue to get older.

Right.

And they say the same age,

Like basically.

And it's not that I really feel older.

Like I kind of feel like I'm the same age,

But I there's like this like this this connection that happens where I,

You know,

I start to become like more aware of it where I'm like,

I don't really understand these students anymore like I used to.

And I don't feel quite as connected.

And I think like a part of being a good teacher,

Which I'm working on,

Is like just changing the way that you connect.

I connected one way when I was like 22 versus another way when I was like 32.

And now that I'm 43,

You know,

I got to change that again.

And like I'm a lot older now.

And like,

You know,

I got to be aware of the fact that,

You know,

I've shifted and changed the way that I am so that it maybe still makes like an impact on people.

Oh,

Yeah.

I bet you're a lot of the kids' favorite teacher because everyone loves art.

Yeah,

I don't know.

I mean,

I hope so.

You know,

I would love that.

But I can't really speak to that.

I think,

Too,

Like as you get older,

You're not going to be like quite as hip,

You know.

And I'm not a hip person.

I never was.

You know,

I mean,

When I was younger,

I was like an old man.

So I think I'm pretty much just an older man now.

I try to have fun with it.

So that's good.

Do you think your parents were like,

Oh,

Look at that cute little old man in the corner.

Let's leave him alone so he can do some art.

Maybe a little bit.

I always feel like I connected with like older people in my life,

You know,

Like my grandparents and like everybody's a little different.

I wasn't really as like into like what was like cool,

If that makes sense.

You know,

Just kind of went my own own direction.

But I do want to just let everyone know that people love you.

I mean,

It is just you put up your pieces of art on social media and it just I'm so lucky that I know you and I've got to meet you in person.

But it's just the energy around your pieces,

Around your art and the response.

From your friends,

Your greater audience is just so profound.

I appreciate that.

With all the different artworks that you do,

You're really striking a chord with a lot of people.

Well,

You know,

I again,

Like I really do appreciate that.

And I think like sometimes artwork is made for different purposes.

You know,

Like sometimes I'm doing like a commission.

Sometimes it's like sort of a look at like society,

You know,

Something that I feel like needs is a problem or needs to be changed.

You know,

Sometimes it's more personal.

Yes,

It is like close to me.

And so it just kind of depends on the art.

But I'm glad I do love it when people like,

You know,

Connect with my artwork.

And again,

Like that's kind of like how I do connect with people.

So,

You know,

I appreciate that.

And I usually ask people,

So,

You know,

Was this something that fascinated you or occupied your mind when you were young?

But you've already answered that question.

And for some kids,

It's like a compulsion,

Like they can't stop.

They just have to do it.

It's something that just cries out to be utilized by them,

Their creative abilities.

Was that how it was for you as a kid or was it something that you actually chose?

Hmm.

I think it's more of a compulsion or like obsession now.

And I think when I was younger,

I might.

I don't know.

It was always a part of my life.

So that's that's like one part.

But I do think that I chose to do it.

At that point,

It was more to like,

By the way,

Like fitting in with my peers,

Because like I didn't have the cool factor.

And,

You know,

I wasn't really into sports.

And like,

You know,

I think a lot of people my age,

You know,

At least the people I hung out with,

You know,

The kind of like identified people that way.

So but I felt like another avenue where I could draw cool things.

And when I was younger,

I would like share a lot of that work with people,

You know,

Like drawings.

And then they asked me to draw something.

And I always kind of enjoyed that,

You know,

Like the challenge of someone asking me to like draw something or interpret something.

But I think now,

At least recently,

It's it is a little bit more of like a compulsion or like obsession,

You know,

Where it's like I kind of need it.

But it's not always a good thing.

You know,

Sometimes art has a way of like delving kind of deep into you.

And maybe some of those things shouldn't be shared,

You know.

Now,

Were your parents creative?

Like,

Where did this come from?

Yeah,

I think both my parents,

I'd say,

Were creative.

My mom always liked to create art.

She still paints and shares her paintings with me,

Which I love.

My dad,

He can actually sculpt really well.

He had done like quite a few sculptures as I was growing up.

I got to watch him do it.

And of course,

Like for him,

This was just like one little part of his life.

But for me,

It was at the right time where it made like such an impact on me because he he did this like sculpture of the north wind.

That's like the space.

And it's like it's very,

I mean,

It's realistic.

And it has like the kind of like it looks like the wind is like kind of blowing through its beard and has like hair.

And he just kind of like whipped that out one day.

And he was working in clay and we didn't have a kiln or anything.

So he just painted it.

And just it's still around.

It's just sort of like in this like unfired state.

You know,

As I learned more about it,

I took a lot of art classes when I was school.

And,

You know,

I was like,

Oh,

Maybe I could fire that at some point,

You know,

But I don't even want to risk it.

You know,

I just kind of want to leave it the way it is.

But he actually has a lot of talents.

And I think that was one that although it made like a real impact on me.

And the fact that he was like sculpting and like creating these like three dimensional artworks that for him,

It was just like a little blip in his life.

You know,

It's like something he could do more of.

He did a woman candelabra also,

Which I thought was beautiful.

And he ended up like scrapping that.

But he does he does sound like a lot of furniture.

He helped me renovate my basement,

You know,

So that's how I have my basement.

You know,

So he's like really into like design and,

You know,

And my mom again is like a painter.

And I've had I had an uncle in Madison who was like a living artist.

Well,

He's passed now,

But like he spent his life.

That's all he did was was art.

You know,

I think that probably had an effect on me,

Too,

That it's like it's like a viable way to go.

Maybe not the easiest way to go.

So I think we can say that it's genetic in your family at this point,

It seems.

Yeah,

I'm part of that.

And,

You know,

I think it speaks to that idea that we all.

Here's your dad,

Right,

Creating all these gorgeous things in his life,

Including this sculpture,

And you said for him it was this blip.

But this blip kind of changed your life or and really.

Helped you to understand that you can do all these other things,

But also create great beauty at the same time.

And so I think it should that kind of experience should help us all to understand that whatever we do in this world,

We may think it's a small thing,

But it can it could be changing someone's life at the same time.

Oh,

That's absolutely true.

I think watching him make the work that he did,

I imitated that,

You know,

And I imitated my mom.

I do remember having some like really kind of interesting situations growing up,

Like this sounds silly,

But I think I was in the fourth grade and I was trying to do maybe this third grade.

So one of those grades and I was doing a Bart Simpson bubble paint T-shirt.

And,

Oh,

I just at that point,

I would get so frustrated with like drawing.

Right.

Because if it didn't like match with how I was envisioning something,

I would I just like,

I don't know,

I'd like flip out and I,

You know,

Rip it up and like,

You know,

Destroy it.

And I was mad because I couldn't make it the way that I was seeing in my head.

I remember I was trying to do like Bart Simpson and I was like painting the lines and didn't quite have it right.

And then my mom came up and she helped me and she just made it look so easy and so fluid.

And now I feel like I can do that,

You know,

Like I can do that,

Too.

But like at that point,

It it was like hopeful.

But then I also was a little bit like upset with myself,

Like I want to get better.

I want to be better at this.

And I do think that like a lot of whether you're talking about music or singing or writing or art,

You have this like vision inside your head that maybe can't be expressed so well.

Right.

And it's like developing your technique in a way that you can better showcase the way you're thinking about things.

Right.

And I think that takes time.

And that's a little hard.

And and I think I got to like a point,

Especially when I got to high school,

Where I felt like as far as like my skills went,

I was pretty good.

Like I like not that I'm not bragging myself,

But good enough to where I feel like I can really start to like express myself versus like trying to learn the proportions and make things look the way they're supposed to be.

And I think also when I was in high school,

I very distinctly remember a drawing that I did where.

We'd actually just watched Star Trek.

It was one of the Star Trek movies with my friends and I was having an overnight.

And this lets you know that I'm a pretty big nerd watching the Borg.

And the assignment was to do like a self-portrait.

And so I was like working on it and they all went to sleep.

It was like maybe like midnight or like two in the morning.

And I was drawing and it just looked terrible.

Like I just I just hated it.

And I I started to kind of deface it.

Like I started like just like I don't care about this anymore.

So I started to kind of draw over it.

And and because I just watched this movie,

I was drawing all these like mechanical parts,

You know,

And these like things that were like going into the face and like little like needles and pins and,

You know,

Circuit boards and all this.

I slept on it.

And I think that's important.

It's important sometimes to like distance yourself from the work that you're making,

Too,

Because like you're going to look at a little bit different the next day.

And at that time,

I was like frustrated with it.

And I think that's true for like all situations,

By the way,

That like,

You know,

When you're when something's just happened and you're like reacting to it,

It's important to like pause and think about it a little bit.

Give yourself a little time.

And then the next day you might look at it completely differently.

But I think it's like our kind of gut reaction just to react.

Right.

And so I hated this thing.

And then the next day I looked at it.

I'm like,

Actually,

It's not it's not so bad,

You know,

And then I could see it was like new eyes.

And then I kind of went back in and I like started to keep the drawing going and I kept it going and actually became probably one of my most like pivotal pieces.

And it taught me some lessons.

You know,

Like I really do think back to that,

That drawing I did.

And I was kind of like,

Hey,

This is a drawing that I hated at several points of the process.

It's one that I looked at as a failure.

It didn't match at all what I was envisioning in my head.

I had this whole different vision.

But,

You know,

Sometimes as you're like working,

It shifts.

You know,

It takes a little bit like a life of its own.

And you kind of have to just kind of go with it.

You know,

And I think that I think there's a point to say I work a lot in ink.

And I think I think probably that also has taught me like a lesson,

Because like when I was younger,

I'd work a lot with a pencil and with a pencil.

Like I just spent all this time like erasing and reworking things.

And I because I didn't I couldn't quite get it the way that I want to look.

I would like get rid of it,

You know,

And I'd like,

You know,

Remove it,

You know,

Erase it and like redraw it.

But with ink,

It's like,

Well,

You have to kind of live with that,

You know,

Like life.

Right.

You know,

You make a decision.

It's like,

Well,

I got to live with this now.

You know,

I made this decision.

I did this thing,

Whatever this thing is.

And like I say,

Well,

Now what do I do?

And at least with that drawing,

I can't say it always works out so well in life.

But in that drawing,

I was able to like make it something new.

And I adapted and I like rethought about it and reworked it.

It actually worked out.

I can't say that happens all the time,

But it worked out really well there.

And it became like something new that was like a part of me.

But also this sort of mistake became a part of what made it so great.

And so,

You know,

I think that's a good thing to remember.

Well,

And that really just beautifully dovetails with real life,

Right?

Sometimes things that we think are greatest mistakes or greatest errors can open us up to incredible beauty and things we didn't even imagine for ourselves.

Well,

I am actually curious about this.

So you teach art at a high school.

Did you think to yourself,

Okay,

I'm an artist.

I love art.

I have to choose a vocation when you were graduating high school.

Did you think to yourself,

Okay,

If I go to school for teaching and if I teach art,

Then I can marry,

You know,

I can bring along this thing that's so important to me,

Still engage in it,

Still develop it because I'll be teaching other kids.

Or were you just like,

I want to be a teacher so bad I can taste it.

I'm just like that.

No,

You're laughing.

You're like,

What?

Well,

No,

No.

That's a great question.

And I'm just going to tell you,

I had like no plans leaving high school.

Like I visited some places I visited.

Well,

I did like a summer camp.

So I won a scholarship to do a summer camp at the School of the Art Institute.

And I loved it.

I just thought it was the greatest thing ever.

It was at Oxbow,

Michigan.

It was really a nice thing.

And I was like,

Well,

That's where I'm going.

And I took my ACT test and I scored high enough to where I could get into the Art Institute.

So I thought,

Well,

That's it.

Actually,

I scored like right on what the requirement was.

I didn't prepare much,

Which was probably bad on my part.

But I didn't even bring the right calculator.

I was like,

I had this like little solar powered,

Like nothing.

And all these kids had these like graphing calculators.

Like,

I'm going to do horrible.

But I did all right.

I did good enough.

I thought,

Well,

That's it.

And then I actually like visited and I wasn't quite as interested after I visited the school.

I don't know if I want to say like why I wasn't interested.

But like,

I didn't feel like maybe that was the right place for me,

You know.

And I visited some other schools,

Too.

And I remember like we did it all on like one day in Chicago.

And my dad was driving home.

And he's like,

Well,

What do you think?

You know,

Do you like the Art Institute?

Is that where you want to go?

Is that what you want to do?

And he was very supportive.

I mean,

This is someone who kind of like a blue collar background.

Although,

Like I said,

My dad's artistic.

But,

You know,

He worked at like General Mills.

I worked at General Mills for a little bit.

You know,

Cereal processing factory,

Which was such a great experience for me.

Honestly,

I loved that.

But he kind of asked me,

He's like,

You know,

It's expensive.

It's not like a cheap way to go.

And he's like,

But that's what you want to do.

I'll make that happen for you,

You know.

And I sit there like with that.

And,

You know,

I deeply respect my dad and mom.

And I was like,

No,

I don't know that.

I don't know that I'm like sure about this,

You know.

And so I was like,

I'm going to go to community college,

Take a lot of art classes,

Just have fun with it.

And I don't if I'm not like solid about this thing,

I can't expect you to like pay for this thing.

You know what I mean?

And so that that to me,

Like really shifted the way that I thought at that point.

And so,

You know,

I went to a community college and I just like loved it.

I thought it was the best thing ever.

It was like you had this menu of classes.

Right.

And I can just like take as many as I want.

I stayed there a little long,

Honestly,

But it wasn't like I was like slacking off.

I just there were so many things that I was interested in,

You know,

Like it's like,

Well,

Shoot,

There's a Shakespeare class.

I got to take that.

There's like a poetry class.

I want to take that.

And like there's all these art class.

I took like every art class they have pretty much.

And like I just was like,

Wow,

This is great.

That's like three hundred dollars take class.

If I did a certain point because I did have like a scholarship for my my dad's work.

And you could take these classes like honor classes and they would like actually give you the money back.

So I was like almost making money taking classes.

But like I thoroughly enjoyed like every class that I took.

I just like loved it.

But then at a certain point,

I was like,

I have to like move on to something.

You know,

I got to my like third year,

Which you're not really supposed to be there for like three years.

I do remember how that went down because I didn't really I didn't know what I want to do.

I kind of thought like I honestly thought it was like literature at that point or like psychology or,

You know,

Kind of just going in a different direction altogether than art.

I was working in the PR department at the community college and I had access to a dark room.

So like I they would they shoot the photos like I'd shoot some.

But mostly I did like the processing and the printing.

And then I would like,

You know,

Kind of do some of the display work.

I remember my boss was gone and Carrie and she was out that day and I was there alone.

And I like,

You know,

I'm going to call my dad because I'm like really feeling at this moment.

Like I need to make like a major decision right now.

Like I got to decide,

Like,

What am I doing with my life?

It's not like I hadn't thought about it before,

But I called him up.

And at that point,

You know,

I'm like that age where maybe I didn't spend as much time with the family.

I was out all the time,

Like hanging out with people,

Doing projects and working on things.

And I just like talk to him like,

Hey,

Dad,

Like,

You know,

Like,

What do you what do you think?

Like,

What should I what should I major in?

Like,

What should my major be?

He's like,

I don't understand.

He's like,

I don't know why this is like so hard for you to like figure out.

I do think,

By the way,

That some of those people outside of you have a better perspective of you than you do.

You know,

Points.

He's like,

Why don't you do art?

It's like this is something that you've always had a passion for.

And you like people.

You work well with people because I had kind of gotten over some of that shyness.

I actually could like part of it was through church.

I started doing mission trips and I went to like this youth group when I was like in high school,

Like later high school.

The beginning of my high school was abysmal,

You know,

But as I got like older and more confident,

Which I have a good friend named Dave that helped me become more confident.

But I kind of shifted and I started to like connect with people.

My dad's like,

Well,

You like people and you like to make art,

Become an art teacher.

And I'm like,

Oh,

Yeah.

Oh,

OK.

And it just like it was weird because if he had told me that,

Like,

Honestly,

Like a couple of hours before,

I probably wouldn't have been receptive to it.

But I was just at that right moment where I was like ready for the next step.

And this door just sort of opened and I even went to like the next step.

I'm like,

Hey,

Dad,

Where should I go to school?

What do you think?

Because I kind of thought like NIU.

There are some other like state schools.

I was looking at Eastern for a little bit.

And he's like,

Well,

I heard North Central College has a good,

You know,

Art teacher program or you could teach your program.

Maybe you should go there.

And I don't know if he had like prep for this.

And he was waiting for me to make this phone call and like talk to him about it.

But I was like,

OK.

And like literally a few minutes later,

I made a phone call.

North College got a tour,

Did it.

And it all kind of went that direction.

And I've had a lot of things I feel like work that way.

I know I know a part of your talk is about miracles.

But like I I can't say that I'm like that decisive of a person.

And I can't say that I have this like hard idea of like maybe when it comes to art,

I do at points.

But like I've been pretty loose with the direction of my life.

And I just kind of go through the doors that are open,

If that makes sense.

Didn't even think I was going to really become a teacher like I was interested.

And when my dad said that,

It kind of made sense.

And there were some other things in my life that kind of made me think maybe that's a direction I might want to try.

I student taught at the school I'm at now.

The teacher,

The cooperative teacher that I had.

Now,

The second one wasn't the best,

But like the first one just like adored me.

And like we talked.

It was really great.

Like we had these like deep conversations and she like it just happened to be that the person who was there currently,

They weren't looking for anybody.

But Mark Cochran,

Which I had his son last year,

Which is like just crazy.

Like there's all this like synchronicity,

You know,

Like I looked up to I looked up to him,

Too.

He's Christian and he's a very like hard working guy.

You know,

He has all these leadership qualities that I just don't have,

But,

You know,

I still admire it.

And I remember like meeting him when I was a student teacher,

Like this guy's pretty cool.

And,

You know,

I'd kind of like to be like him at some point.

And then he left.

He got his degree.

He wanted to become like athletic director,

Which is something that I don't have an interest in.

And she's like,

Hey,

I've got this position.

And if you're interested,

I think you'll probably get the job.

And it involves a lot of photo.

And it just happened to be because I'll be honest with you,

I didn't really have a photography background,

But I worked in the PR department at my school.

And that's where I kind of learned photo.

And even there,

Like I did have a passion for photography.

We didn't have that in the high school that I was at.

And I didn't really,

You know,

Photo was a lot harder when I was growing up because like you didn't have cell phones,

You know,

And you had to shoot film and film was expensive.

And the idea of like processing your own film and making your own prints in a dark room was like kind of intimidating,

Quite honestly.

And I knew that that's like what the process was.

And it was funny because when I got my job at the community college working in the dark room,

I knew nothing about this.

And they really were looking for someone who like was experienced.

This girl who I knew from the ceramics class I was taking was like,

Hey,

I work in this dark room.

And she was leaving.

She was moving on.

She's going to like,

I don't know,

Go to like down south to go to school.

And she's like,

I need someone to take my position now.

And she's like,

I think maybe you'd be good for it.

And I'm like,

I don't know anything about that stuff.

Like,

I don't know anything about the dark room.

I don't know how to like develop film and make prints.

And she's like,

Well,

Come with me.

And literally in the afternoon,

I had to learn like everything.

And she just tell me,

You know how you do it.

They just tell it.

This is like a fake it until you make it kind of thing.

So just tell them that you're good.

You got it.

You have some experience.

And,

You know,

They'll hire you because they can't find anybody.

And I'm like,

Well,

I don't have that experience.

But she showed me and I practiced and worked at it.

I actually stole my dad's camera because he didn't trust me with it.

But I wanted to like really like learn how to do it.

And so I kind of like in a lot of ways,

Like taught myself how to use the camera.

I will say that I learned a lot more about photography as I started teaching it.

Because then you're really like troubleshooting and trying to figure out what's wrong.

And you're working all different types of cameras.

And probably that only took a couple of photo classes.

But like I ended up like teaching it for 20 years.

I think I'm still struggling with like the new stuff,

You know,

Because I'm pretty good with film.

I understand how to use cameras.

But like some of the new technology,

There's like a lot to it.

And I'm working.

I'm going to get it and I'll figure it out.

But,

Yeah,

That's kind of how it went and just seeing things work together.

And I ended up getting a job there.

And like,

You know,

Mark Copeland left and like became like athletic director and then went on to become like superintendent and all these other things.

And then the wild thing was last year,

I had his son in my class.

And his son's wonderful and an amazing photographer.

And it was just nice to have that like,

Wow,

You know,

Like after all these years,

Now,

I don't know,

I just started to see all these like connections,

You know,

And I thought that was really cool.

Yeah.

And it doesn't make you feel old at all,

Does it?

Right.

Yeah.

You brought this up really beautifully while you were just talking,

Because my second question always is,

Did you grow up in a religious household?

And it sounds like maybe you did.

And how did that evolve?

Yeah,

It was it was a religious household,

But I want to be careful with how I use that word only because like we didn't really go to church.

Like my dad would like read out of the Bible.

We would watch like sermons that were like on television.

And so he was a very spiritual.

He'd also I should talk about him like passively.

He also takes a lot of his beliefs out of nature,

Like kind of incorporating science and what we know of the world and the universe.

And like,

You know,

Taking that with with the Bible,

With biblical teachings and like kind of working it together and just really trying to understand like existence.

Right.

Because like in the end,

Like to me,

That's what it always was.

Right.

Like even since I was like very young,

It's really pretty much as young as I can remember.

I remember like kind of questioning,

Like,

Why what is all this?

Like,

Why am I here?

Like,

What is this?

You know,

And it's like you got to like somehow resolve that in your life.

Right.

Like and I hope that that's a question that everybody has in their heart.

Right.

Like,

What the heck am I doing here?

Like,

This is such a bizarre thing.

I mean,

I'm this like conscious being and I'm here and I exist.

Like,

What am I supposed to do?

Why?

Where am I headed?

You know,

And I think to maybe because I did think about these things before that.

But when my grandfather died,

When I was younger,

He died when I was like seven or something.

And I understood death.

I remember my mom was like trying to explain it to me.

And she's like,

Well,

He's gone away and he's he's not coming back.

And I got it already.

Like,

I knew things died and I understood death.

And I do think just kind of like the the Greek philosophers,

You know,

That momento momento mori.

Right.

Like,

Remember,

You'll die.

That's sort of like the beginning of like wisdom,

You know,

Because like in the they use the symbol of a skull to represent it where it's like,

Hey,

We're all time is temporary for us.

You know,

We're here for a short amount of time.

You know,

We're creatures of time.

And you really have to kind of figure out like what you're going to do with that time.

And I think it's very easy,

Especially in like the modern age,

To get distracted from the severity of real life.

Right.

Because like,

You know,

You're on your phone,

Which I have a phone now.

I didn't have a phone before.

But,

You know,

You've got a phone and you're watching like the Netflix.

And and,

You know,

We're we've kind of grown up in a world of our own creation.

We're in this like culture that we've created.

We're very separated from nature.

And the truth is,

Is nature is pretty brutal.

It's it's beautiful.

It's it's the most stately,

Beautiful thing that you'll ever like see is a human being.

But it's also rough.

Right.

Things die.

Things starve.

There's this fight for like survival,

You know.

And you've got to like,

You know,

Like have that be a part of your like philosophy.

Right.

Because like it's so,

You know,

We've kind of hidden ourself from like all of that,

You know,

As a culture.

You know,

You know,

You get your meat at the supermarket in a plastic bag.

You get your food in a grocery cart.

You know,

Everything's kind of taken care of.

When people die,

You make them look as though they were still alive.

Right.

Like we mask death.

We hide ourself from that because it's an evil,

Ugly thing.

And it's scary and sad in it.

And but the problem is,

Is if you're not in tune with that,

You're also not realizing like or maybe not realizing what you should where you're headed.

And like really thinking about what life's about.

What are you here for?

You know,

What are you doing?

You know,

Think about like how big the frickin universe is.

You know,

I think about this quite a bit,

Like because it blows my mind.

It's like,

You know,

You look at the stars,

But you can hardly see the stars because like we have the light pollution.

Like even our stupid like cities and like our streetlights have like made it where we can't really see the grandeur of existence.

And like where we're at and what we're at.

But it's like,

You know,

We're in this like very small planet.

This feels like a big planet.

You know,

You're traveling from place to place.

It's huge,

All this space.

But like it's nothing compared to like the enormity of the actual universe.

And it's like,

What the heck?

Like,

What is this about?

So,

Yeah.

So I don't even remember where the question was that you started with that.

But like that's that's,

You know,

That's kind of where I think I think like,

You know,

You need to think about those things.

You need to think about like life and like meaning and like in to me for like religious purposes.

Like I have to come up with something,

You know,

Like what what's how am I solving the meaning behind this?

And I can't accept that it's meaningless.

I just can't.

You know,

I just I it just doesn't make sense to me.

Like you're just going to have all this just spontaneously happen.

You know,

Like in this this whole universe where everything comes from something,

Everything causes something.

You're just going to have this one thing that just sort of happened.

And then and just accept that.

Oh,

Yeah,

It's just random.

No,

No,

No,

It can't be,

You know.

But anyway.

All right.

I'll be quiet.

No,

We started.

Actually,

It was really beautiful.

You started talking about how your family,

You know,

Watched sermons,

Read the Bible,

But you didn't go to church.

And you said it wasn't really a religious household.

You said your father was more kind of had this deep affiliation or affection for nature as far as as kind of what makes this world tick or what is sacred in this world.

And then you you just started talking.

It was just really beautiful.

I was sitting here just reveling in what you were saying.

And I was thinking,

Oh,

My gosh,

I love you.

You used a phrase creatures of time or creatures in time.

And I thought,

Oh,

My gosh,

That's a whole series of you could do.

What do the creatures in time or of time look like?

And then I suddenly got,

You know,

Images of Borg like we have.

So,

Yeah.

So I was listening to you,

But I was also thinking,

Gosh,

I just love that phrase.

And it sounds like that you grew up a little bit and went on mission trips.

And so,

I mean,

It's still called to you even when you were older.

I sought it out.

I went through a pretty traumatic thing when I was younger.

You know,

Like I,

You know,

I think all kids get teased a bit,

But I am pretty sensitive.

You know,

I'm a pretty sensitive person.

And I took everything pretty tough when I was younger.

And I just got to a point where I just stopped going to school.

You know,

Like I was like seventh and eighth grade.

I didn't really show up a whole lot.

Not that like I would just like skip school because I kind of had this like this idea that that's not right.

But like I'd find ways to not go,

You know,

And I was very resistant of it.

I know even like my dad,

Like I know you were talking about like miracles and like a miracle that he brings up a lot because he didn't know what to do with me.

It's like here I've got this like kid who's like just all in his own head and,

You know,

Like stuck at home and he can't like go to school and he's not having this normal life.

They had this class.

It was like a like kind of like a.

Oh,

Like a resource class where I was looking to get put into that,

Where you'd be there all day long and you'd have like people that,

You know,

Kind of in the same boat that you were in.

And,

You know,

It was like kind of taught by just one teacher,

Two teachers,

And you weren't like mainstreamed into like the rest of the classes.

And I didn't want to go to that either.

Like I was like,

No,

I'm I'm done.

I'm not going to go back to school.

And there was a kid that was in a class.

My dad was like,

We'd go like on these walks.

And then we took this like nature hike.

I grew up by the Fox River,

By the way,

And Devil's Cave.

So like we were on a little nature hike and there was this kid.

It was like a really cold day.

Like it was like in the winter.

I was at home like all the fall term and I was looking to not go back for the spring term.

And this kid rode up on his bike and he just happened to be the kid in this class who I was going to be going to.

And he's like,

Hey,

He talked to me a little bit.

He was like,

His name is Byron,

Which is really interesting.

And I never I lost contact with him.

I don't know what he's doing now,

But,

You know,

He I know he had some of his own like darkness and whatnot to deal with.

But like he's like,

Hey,

I hope to see you in class on Monday.

You know,

I'd like to like hang out with you,

You know,

In like I think he was kind of looking for someone maybe to talk to.

And like in my dad's like,

Wow.

You know,

Like later,

Not so much at the moment,

But he was like,

Wow,

That was something that was like a that was a moment where things came together.

Because like this kid didn't like live near me.

And we're like going on a hike.

It's like six o'clock at night on the Red Oak Nature Center.

And it's like bitter cold.

It's like below zero.

This kid's on a bike on his bike.

And he just happened to like come up and like encourage me to go to class.

And the next day,

You know,

I was like,

All right,

Well,

I'll get in the car and I'll show up there.

And then it just happened to be that my dad actually took off at work,

Which was not typical for him because like he worked,

You know,

He was at work every day.

You know,

He did not get sick,

Still doesn't get sick.

But we pulled in the parking lot and it happened to be that one of the aides in the class was there was there late and she was in the parking lot,

Too.

And she was in the car in front of us and she recognized me in the car and she basically walked me into the school.

So I do like some things almost like God's way of being like,

All right,

You have to go.

And I'm going to we're going to walk you through this and,

You know,

Make you do this.

But that whole thing was like quite an experience,

Like growing up and like definitely shaped me a lot as an individual.

And maybe in some ways helps me connect with students now,

You know,

Certain students.

Oh,

I bet I I can't even imagine.

And I can testify that winters up there in northern Illinois are bitterly cold.

Cold,

Cold.

And I certainly wouldn't be caught dead outside if I didn't have to be,

Let alone on a bike,

Even as a kid.

No,

No,

No.

That what that is kind of an astonishing,

Astonishing story.

And what I really am captured by is just the support you receive from your parents,

Especially your father.

I mean,

Talk about how much you were loved.

It's just so astonishing and really beautiful.

And the support that you've just received from all these different people,

The Byron on the bike and the aid that walked you in and your parents.

And yeah,

And this Dave that you were talking about earlier that you alluded to.

It seems like and you brought it up before that all these things kind of just these doors open for you.

And it's almost like you've been ushered to where you are today,

Like that you've been carefully stewarded on your journey to where you are today.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah.

And I think probably that's true.

I mean,

I think that's true for everybody.

Right.

Like,

I mean,

I don't know.

It just kind of seems like there's things that happen.

And like a lot of times,

I guess I go through like open doors.

So,

You know,

If there's like a pathway that's like,

Oh,

That's that's the way I probably need to go,

You know,

And so then I'll go that direction.

Dave,

You mentioned Dave,

Really good friend who I need to talk to more often.

He moved away.

But in high school,

He helped me get out of the program.

And so I was in that program and I was like,

Not in regular classes.

And I did take some classes.

They were kind of slowly putting us out into like the regular population.

And they put me at lunch.

And I remember at the time,

I was like,

I don't want to go to lunch.

Like,

That's where all the craziness happens.

You know,

Like,

No,

Thanks.

You know,

I'll just eat lunch here in this little room.

You're like,

No,

We want you to do it.

And I'm like,

All right.

And so I show up there and then here's Dave and he's at a table by himself,

Which is like really weird because like he was pretty popular when he was in like middle school,

But he just didn't happen to have his friends there.

And I did know him like a little bit.

And so,

Like I said,

He was also in art and his brother,

Ed,

Was a comic book artist.

And I really looked up to his work,

Too.

But Dave and I would like sit there and we'd draw.

But more importantly,

Dave kind of taught me to have like a sense of humor.

Like,

I don't know that I was very funny before I met Dave.

I don't know that my parents,

My parents are funny,

But like they're not quite like my friend Dave's level of humor.

He's very,

Like,

Witty and like intelligent.

And he would just kind of like make fun of everything.

And I got to say,

Like,

It kind of made me feel good.

Like,

I'm like,

Hey,

You know what?

Here we are.

We're at this table.

You know,

I feel pretty lame all the time,

But like,

Let's laugh about it.

You know,

And it was it was really a good thing.

And honestly,

That confidence I got from him.

And I spent like a lot of time in his home,

Like growing up with his parent or mom and his two brothers.

I learned a lot from them.

And,

You know,

I think I grew a lot there.

And I always remember,

Like,

Ed,

Because he had he was in the upstairs and Dave had a bedroom to the left and had a bedroom to the right.

And Ed had this,

Like,

Futon and a cool fish tank,

This wood floor.

And he had this cool old 1940s drafting table.

All right.

And it was just like the coolest table.

And I just remember watching him just drawing,

You know,

And I come over and be like,

Hey,

What's up,

Man?

And he was a few years older than me,

But like probably like six or seven years older.

But like I just was like,

Wow,

You know,

He's like making all these like cool comics and he's like his artwork is so great.

And he like tells stories and he's so creative,

You know,

And like I want to be more creative and I want to be able to do this kind of stuff.

And he actually gave me that drawing table.

I still have it.

So like that that was like a nice thing.

Again,

I need to like reach out to these people again.

Dave,

I just I time and things change and people move away and it's hard.

And but they're good people and like people that have like helped form me.

Well,

You know,

That's what this podcast is about.

It's it's about guilting you into remembering everyone that you're supposed to be in touch with.

So we're right on target.

But,

You know,

My third question,

And you can tell as many stories as you want,

Is,

You know,

Have you ever experienced something that you thought was magical or miraculous in your life?

Something that changed everything or made you change the way you think about the world or your place in it?

I'd love to hear anything that you'd like to share.

I think.

I think,

OK,

I've got a few things I'm going to share,

But like I think there's been there's been a lot more than what I'm going to talk about.

I think a lot of what did happen to me when I was in high school,

I want to say what happened to me,

Like what happened in high school.

Does anyone say what happened to me?

It's like,

Oh,

Like,

Oh,

You were teased and this and that and poor you.

But it's like,

You know,

Toughen up,

Too.

And like it was me.

It was my reaction to things that made those things so bad.

And so,

Yeah.

And I think there are a lot of things that happened that were miraculous at that point.

You know,

And I I think even just being involved with churches,

As I told you,

Like I grew up in a home where we didn't really go to church.

But I sought church out as I got older because I'm like,

Again,

I'm like looking for meaning.

I want I'm going to say quests,

You know,

And it's like I'm going to try all these different churches.

And there was a youth pastor named Ellen Lall who also did a lot to,

Like,

Get me involved with the mission trips and like,

You know,

Serving.

And I do think that if you're going to fully develop as a human being,

Service has to be a part of that.

And you have to kind of get outside of yourself and need to do more of that because I've kind of gotten away from that.

And I feel like that's like a little bit of a weakness.

But anywho,

Like more recently.

And I do think that sometimes there's like coincidences,

But it's like these events that line up in time have meaning for the people involved.

And even though,

Yeah,

It was just this thing or maybe science could explain this event or maybe there's like some explanation.

Right.

But it's like it's it's the fact that it happened when it did,

When you were going through what you were going through and how you interpreted that thing,

Which is really what makes it like miraculous.

Right.

And so,

Like,

My cousin,

Who I look as being very young,

33,

Had passed away earlier.

And I was already going through some things.

I was already feeling sad about some other like interpersonal things.

And like it just it really kind of hit me.

You know,

I'm like,

Oh,

My God,

What the heck?

I can put it.

She's like.

She's the first of like my generation to pass or like my I put group people group,

You know,

Like she's my cousin and I it was like a real shock.

And I miss her very much.

And it was hard.

You know,

There's some things that happened there that were also miraculous,

But I'm not going to go into like some of the details of that.

But I will tell you that after she passed,

I started doing this drawing of Jesus and I just felt it was something that I had started drawing about 10 or 15 years ago.

And it just sat like it just sat.

Like against the wall and kind of like looked at me like,

When are you going to finish me?

And I have a lot of drawings like that,

You know,

A lot of ideas I've just kind of left on a wall or left it,

You know,

Put in a corner like someday,

Someday I'm going to come back and I'm going to finish this idea.

You know,

I'm going to finish this this this one.

And I had this like whole vision of what it was going to be was it was Jesus as the tree of life.

And so it's like he's he's on kind of like a cross ish kind of thing,

But it's really a tree in the drawing.

And he has like branches that are like growing out of him and there's fruit.

And it's sort of going back almost like the Garden of Eden where you have like that,

You know,

That myth.

I don't want to say mythical,

But like the story of the tree of life and,

You know,

How you eat of this tree and like you live forever.

Right.

Like,

You know,

You elude time at that point.

And,

You know,

I do believe that we're we're going somewhere.

And I do believe that Jesus kind of represents this like redemption in ourself that will maybe allow us to experience time like in a very different way.

Right.

You know,

It's like you were talking about like how we're creatures of time.

Time is very linear for us,

But it's like almost like a dimensional thing.

You know,

Like if you were like a two dimensional being in like a three dimensional world,

You wouldn't experience the world the same way.

You know,

Everything would be shapes.

You wouldn't see the form of it.

You wouldn't see it.

And really all you wouldn't really see what it really was.

You know,

If I had like a like a candle,

I put like a candle down and I were two dimensional,

I would go around this like a circle.

Well,

That's a circle.

That's round.

You know,

It's a circle.

But really,

It's not that,

You know,

If you experience life in the third dimension,

You see it's like a cylinder.

It's bigger.

I think that's true for time,

Too,

Where it's that we see it in this very narrow plane.

You know,

We're only able to experience time in the time that we're in,

You know,

However long or short that is.

And,

You know,

We learn about history and we might have ideas of the future.

But you really only occupy the space,

That moment,

You know,

And that moment moment's always moving.

And then what's done is done.

And it's my belief or my hope that at some point you'll be able to experience time separately,

That you'll join that fourth dimension or that other reality where you'll see everything all at once.

And so anyway,

So I'm like going through a lot of stuff and I'm drawing this drawing.

I find out my cousin had passed.

And so I don't really like start drawing the picture.

And it just shocked me because I had just looked at like a Facebook post of where she was happy,

You know,

Having like coffee with her daughter and their friends for a birthday.

It was at like a coffee shop in Geneva.

And it was just so wonderful,

You know,

And I was like,

Oh,

I'm like happy,

You know,

Like it's nice to see her and her family.

And like and then she died that night.

And I'm like,

Oh,

My God,

You know,

It just like just shocked me.

It's like I'm looking at a picture of her and I get the email that she had passed.

I go back and I'm like,

Look at this post.

And I'm like,

What?

Like,

How is this like reality?

And I was already going through some stuff and that just like tanked me,

You know,

And I just felt like I've got to do this drawing.

I did put her initials as like one of the fruit in the tree of life.

And,

You know,

I can share these pictures with you like later,

You know,

See if you want to like have them tagged or put in or however you want to do that.

But anyway,

So that was rough.

I got through like winter break and I just I was kind of drawing a lot of sad drawings,

You know,

Just like kind of working through this.

And I started this like series of birds.

I think you well,

You saw them there at that art show in Batavia.

And in that kind of started,

I visited my sister in Tennessee and I hadn't seen her for a while.

And of course,

Like,

You know,

My cousin was like one of her like best friends growing up.

It's just like,

Oh,

My God,

I can't believe all of this.

And I got it was so nice being some time with my sister and her husband or two puppies.

And my sister's like,

Hey,

She had my mom paint her this composition of a raven holding a little scroll with memento mori written on it.

You know,

Remember,

You'll die.

She's like,

Hey,

I'd like you to draw that for me.

And I'm like,

Really?

I mean,

I don't want to like upset mom,

Though.

Like mom just painted this painting.

You know,

You want me to like draw this?

And I'd brought like a lot of dry materials with me as I always do.

And so I did,

You know,

And I drew it.

My sister liked it.

And I drew a second one,

Which was like a dove in a sort of like the the other part of it.

You know,

So you have like this kind of darker scene with these like kind of brooding trees and this raven holding this like scroll with this like reminder that like life is short.

And,

You know,

You better like figure things out.

Right.

You better like resolve and like,

You know,

Make amends and,

You know,

Redeem yourself in however way you need to make it.

And then you had the dove.

And that was sort of like life,

Like life ongoing.

And that one,

The Latin,

As I use,

Like all these like Latin phrases,

That was the light of the world.

And I sort of like this idea of like redemption and maybe like to take after life and like,

You know,

Maybe there's something else.

And I kept doing these birds,

Though,

Because I was sad,

You know,

And it wasn't just I mean,

There are a lot of things were happening.

I was like questioning a lot of things about myself.

I was questioning.

Just a lot,

You know,

Maybe it's a midlife crisis,

But I was like working through some things that were something interpersonal things.

And I got to my cousin's memorial.

Now,

This is the miracle part.

Right.

And it was like the day of her memorial because they didn't have it like right away.

And it was like maybe that maybe I shouldn't say it's like a memorial,

Like a celebration of life.

And it was a very,

Very cold day.

And I'm working on these birds and I'm sad.

I'm sad for a lot of reasons,

But I'm sad.

And and I got I got it was about halfway through at that point in the series.

I was I was going to be 12 in total and like a calendar.

But like I was like kind of like debating on which one to start next.

You know,

Like,

Which one am I doing next?

And it was the morning of the memorial.

We had like went out to pick up a few things and we came back to my parents house and there was a red cardinal that was perched on the railing.

And and I had a cardinal in mind.

It's not like I didn't think of a cardinal,

But I really nothing was set in stone yet.

I was just like sketching up like different compositions and having different ideas.

And I just like look at this cardinal.

It was just like such a cold day.

It was so cold.

It was so gray.

Just just ice.

You know,

No color.

You know,

This like vibrant cardinal sitting on the perch on this railing.

And I'm like,

I tried to get my phone out to take a picture.

It's like one of those things where it's like I don't want to miss this moment,

Though,

You know,

Because it's like I'm going to spend all this time trying to get this started.

I'm going to miss this cardinal.

And so I just kind of waited and then the cardinal flew away.

But it was really beautiful.

And then I was like,

That's that's what I got to do.

I got to I got to draw the cardinal now,

You know,

And then we went to the memorial.

And it was nice,

Actually,

It was nice talking to everybody.

I don't know that you really have like closure always on things,

But it felt good,

Like reconnecting.

And I felt like I I'm like,

I need to do this drawing,

You know,

And so now I'll be honest with you.

I didn't realize the significance of cardinals until later.

I drew the cardinal.

I posted it online.

Right.

And as I do,

Because,

You know,

I like to have that that dopamine hit from all the likes and everything,

You know,

That feedback loop.

But like I so I posted it and then all these people started talking about like how it's like represents like the spirit of a loved one or it's like,

You know,

Someone who maybe just passed who's like visiting.

And I was like,

Oh,

Because I didn't know I didn't know any of that.

And I'm like,

Wow.

Like looking back,

The timing of this thing.

Right.

Like it's like I was like one.

I was like searching for like,

What am I going to draw next?

I'm in this mood.

The state already.

My cousin had passed.

We're going to memorial this cardinal lands.

And again,

I have no understanding of the significance of all this.

But all those things came together.

And then it wasn't until later it was revealed to me that,

Hey,

You know,

There might have been some symbolism involved with this.

You know,

Maybe this is God like tapping on your shoulder or letting you know something.

So I would I would call that a miraculous thing.

Some people would call that like a coincidence.

But,

You know,

I'm going to read into it a little bit.

All right,

Everyone,

There is my episode with the incredible Chris Hodge.

I hope you loved every second.

And I so adore introducing you to some of the incredible human beings that I know in this world.

He's such an impeccable storyteller and incredible artist.

Please do consider leaving a review or writing a little rating.

This labor of love of mine,

I'm trying to get it to as many people as possible.

And those ratings and reviews help other people find it.

I need to thank Chris for being such a wonderful human being.

And then I need to say thank you for listening.

And here's my one request.

Be like Chris.

Be enchanted with the world.

I know we've covered a lot in this episode.

But what I keep coming back to Chris is his belief in the numinous,

His belief in the mystery,

His belief in the magic in the world and that we're all heading somewhere.

This is all intentional.

This creation has meaning.

And guess what?

What we create in this world,

It has meaning as well.

So be like Chris.

Have faith in the beauty in the world.

And I think pretty soon,

Or at least I suspect pretty soon,

The world will become more beautiful for you as well.

See you next week for the very next episode of the podcast.

And until then,

I hope your life is filled with magic,

With mystery and strangers who ultimately become your friends.

And I'm so glad you brought it back to what the Cardinal signifies,

Because as you were telling the story and the timing,

I just thought to myself,

Oh,

My gosh.

How serendipitous,

Synchronistic and beautiful.

You know,

What a gorgeous message.

Yeah,

I feel that.

And I,

You know,

And again,

Like I think you make art for different purposes.

Right.

And I went through like a certain point where everything was very personal and also painful because sometimes there's that too.

And it's a lot nicer doing a commission for somebody that doesn't have those emotions connected.

Or maybe you're drawing something about like the world or like artificial intelligence or,

You know,

Technology and encroaching on our on our humanity.

And like those are all like fun topics for me or the apocalypse.

You know,

I was like to draw that.

But like but yeah,

Like some of those things,

Like the bird series was emotional.

And so was like the picture I did of Jesus.

And I do think like there were some other things that happened to that were like you said,

Like synchronistic,

Just like in timing.

But it really renewed my faith,

Honestly,

Because I was questioning some things there,

Too.

And I had some things happen where I'm like,

Yeah,

I think there I think I just can't.

I can't ignore the fact that there are too many things that came together and there's there is meaning.

And it's just a matter of like having like the right bandwidth to like pick up on it.

Well,

You renewed my faith in humanity when you chose to actually enjoy the image,

The vision of the cardinal and not take a picture.

I am endlessly seeing these shots of people like,

You know,

I don't know,

Anywhere,

Anywhere in the world at concerts or at the Grand Canyon.

And everybody's on their friggin phone trying to either,

I don't know,

Get on the Internet or take a picture.

They're missing the entire experience.

I know you're totally right.

I mean,

There's a time to take photos,

But there's not to to especially.

Not that I'm like saying this is like a bad thing.

Right.

But it's like,

You know,

It's just like a little too easy,

You know,

And like just snapping everything,

Documenting everything.

I don't know that everything needs to be captured like that.

Well,

You know,

It just I was talking about this yesterday to someone at the end of my life because she was talking about her daughters and how they're just like heads down,

Bowed on their phones all the time,

Like eternally.

And I said to her,

I was like,

I don't know if I'm if you and I,

Chris Hodge and I are crotchety and old and we're like,

Darn those phones or if Memento Mori,

I think about that.

And when I'm on my deathbed,

Do I want to understand with clarity?

That's so horrific that I spent lost my entire life because I was on a screen and I didn't actually fully inhabit my life.

I didn't actually own my life.

I didn't actually consciously move in it.

I didn't actually connect with anyone in real life because I was on a screen.

And I think that's going to happen for so many people coming up in these next decades.

You know,

It's like their entire lives are spent on screens.

And the sad part is they're not even going to know like what they're missing,

You know,

And that's to me the worst part.

Right.

It's like we've we've just become so overstimulated like all the time.

And it's not even just about like wasting your time on like playing stupid games and watching.

I mean,

How many advertisements do you end up watching and things you click and the scrolling and this and that?

And it's like you but you're not allowing yourself to have solitude.

You know,

It's like and I notice that with like students more and more where it's like they're always plugged into something.

You know,

Like they're reading a book,

Watching TV and listening to music.

It's like too many things,

Too many things happen.

You're not actually appreciating any one of those things.

And then what happens when you remove all of it?

You know,

In like I think people are really afraid to confront themselves,

You know,

And I mean,

Probably a lot of people our age spent a lot of time alone.

Like I spent a lot of my childhood alone,

You know,

Or just like,

You know,

Sitting in a tree or sitting in the grass or messing around with some plants or whatever,

You know.

And you have all this time where in that solitude,

You really you really process and reflect on things and like who you are and what you've done and like where you're headed.

And I think that's like really important to develop as a human being.

And when you spend every waking moment plugged into something so that you can escape maybe the uncomfortableness of being confronted with yourself,

That also means that you don't develop into a self,

You know.

And I think that's like a real problem.

And I think I think with artificial intelligence is going to get all the worse.

But anywho,

That's why I know that.

Totally darkness to your podcast.

No,

No.

I mean,

I think it's I mean,

I think more than just you and I are aware that this is a problem.

I want to say thank you for saying people our age because I am actually older than you,

But I love being included in your.

Well,

You certainly don't look older than me.