Interview: Catherine ~ The Cat Who Saw A Ghost!

Catherine tells about an unexpected encounter-with her grandfather, long after he was gone from this world. She was lying on her chiropractor's table, completely relaxed, when her chiropractor began giving her messages from the other side. One of those messages was about her cat, and a behavior she had witnessed, and that message changed her life forever!

Transcript

Hey,

Everyone,

And welcome back to the Bite Size Blessings podcast.

I just want to let you know that these last few weeks have been totally crazy,

And I've been trying to get my guest this week,

Dr.

Catherine,

I've been trying to get her for an interview,

And things just kind of went sideways once in a while.

The day we finally decided to have the interview,

All the power was shut down to the neighborhood.

I thought to myself,

Okay,

I have to be losing my mind.

This cannot be happening.

I called her and I said,

Hey,

Look,

I can drive into town and use my hotspot,

And I will interview you in my car,

And so that's what I did.

It was so hot in my car,

But I just could not let this chance to interview Dr.

Catherine slip away,

And she was so gracious and kind about it.

Here I am sitting in my car like a weirdo,

And she looks amazing,

And I'm sweating,

By the way,

Because it's so hot.

But I kept my cool,

Sort of,

Dr.

Catherine absolutely kept her cool,

And we got it done.

All this to say that sometimes interviewing people for the podcast and working on this podcast can give you some curve balls that you don't quite expect,

But yeah,

I'm trying to figure those out and make them work for me.

So Dr.

Catherine is a pretty cool human being.

I really,

Really wanted her on the podcast because she dances in the areas of myth,

Folktale,

And fantasy.

She has her own podcast called Myth Matters,

And she's someone that is deeply invested in the stories in the world,

The stories that humans make,

The stories that cultures make,

And how in general,

You know,

All of us who are kind of groping around in the dark are trying to figure out why exactly we're here.

But the one thing that I was really drawn to was her spirit.

It's just utterly extravagant and fabulous.

And on our website,

There's a great quotation from the mystic Kabir,

And it says,

If you don't break your ropes while you're alive,

Do you think ghosts will do it after?

And I think that quotation is urging all of us to just live life wholeheartedly.

And that means with every atom of our hearts,

Every single day,

Go out there and take a great big bite out of life.

Like it's the juiciest apple or the most delicious piece of pie or whatever item of food floats your boat,

That we have this life,

We're in it,

So why not make it count?

So that's my intro for Dr.

Catherine.

So now here's the conversation.

I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

And I said,

Well,

The only Henry I've ever known was my grandfather,

And he has been dead for more than 10 years.

And this chiropractor's name is Daniel.

Daniel says to me,

Well,

Henry is here and has some things to say to you.

How would I introduce myself?

Okay,

Well,

That's an interesting question.

There are a couple of things that immediately come to mind.

So one,

I guess drawing on my background as a mythologist,

I see myself as kind of a phoenix.

And by that,

I mean someone who has reinvented herself a number of times.

I've lived more than one life,

Which is what the phoenix does.

She periodically burns herself up,

Puts the fire out with her own tears and like rises from her ashes.

I feel like I've lived that a couple of times.

But then I would also say that I'm a conversationalist.

I've noticed over the years,

And I've had a few years,

That my central metaphor,

The way that I think about my experiences and what I'm doing,

Is that I'm in conversation with someone or something,

Another person,

The squirrels on my walk,

The stories that I tell.

And conversation is where I really feel my life energy rise up and where I find communion,

I guess I would say.

Amazing.

I really am grateful that you emphasize the idea of the phoenix and multiple lives within our own one life this time and reinventing ourselves and how sometimes that reinvention happens even when we do not want it to happen.

It's just going to happen and you either find some peace with it or you are dragged kicking and screaming through the process.

Would you mind sharing some of the vocations or jobs,

Personalities you've had in your life?

Uh-huh.

Well,

So my first job out of college,

I was a community organizer for a network of public interest research groups.

And I ended up working my way up through those organizations.

So for a while I was running this network of public interest organizations.

And that was one set of things.

And at the Phoenix,

I went through a real dark night of the soul in my early 30s that precipitated my quitting.

And so in a way,

I carried forward that impulse to activism and to empower other people.

I see that as something that I still do.

But that was a very definitive chapter.

And then I went through kind of a long period of wandering around trying to figure out what I should do.

And in that case,

I wrote research papers.

I worked in a body shop.

I became a massage therapist.

I was a baker at a cafe,

Actually in the Sandia Mountains outside of Albuquerque.

I moved a few times.

I was a painter.

I have made for a while.

I made a good amount of my income from selling my artwork.

Yeah,

So that's a few things.

And then I kind of morphed into being a consultant for nonprofit organizations.

And then ultimately,

I decided,

Oh,

Go to graduate school and became a mythologist.

And that was in terms of vocation.

That's where I've been for the last.

Amazing.

OK,

Love,

Love,

Love.

I want to ask you about this baking piece because I have celiac.

So I'm always envious of people that can bake fresh bread or a pastry.

And it's just fresh and delicious.

And before I found out I had celiac,

I used to make my own bread.

And there was always this moment,

You know,

I found this beautiful book of incredible breads and I thought,

I'm going to make every bread.

I'll just go through this book.

I think I got a third of the way through and then I had to stop.

But there was this moment I discovered when I was working with the yeast,

When I was working with the dough,

As I did it more and more often,

It's almost like I began to feel the conversation between the dough,

The yeast in my hands.

And it just became this intuitive process of where I didn't even have to think or worry because I learned how to know or or listen,

I guess you could say,

To the dough.

Did you have that experience?

Yeah,

I love that you.

I love that you bring that into the conversation.

Yes.

I mean,

It was a very meditative context anyway,

Because I was at this cafe and so I got up at like two o'clock in the morning and walked down the road and let myself in and,

You know,

Turned on the lights and turned on the ovens and turned on the music.

And it was just me for like four hours or so in there.

And I made a range of things,

Breads and some yeast pastries,

But also a lot of muffins and carrot cake and pies and pie crust is very similar,

I think,

To bread dough.

And that the more you do it,

The more you can just feel what's going on or what's right.

But baking is something I started doing when I was a girl.

It came very naturally to me.

I've always enjoyed that more than cooking.

Can I ask you,

Just because I love these questions,

About what was your favorite pastry or bread to make?

I think,

Hmm,

For my own purposes in eating them,

Pecan rolls.

But in many ways,

Carrot cakes,

Because the local fire department came in every Friday.

And once the owner of the cafe told me that,

Then I made sure that I always Friday morning baked the carrot cake because they would come in and eat it.

And that was really satisfying.

Well,

I have to tell you that carrot cake is probably one of my favorite.

That in cinnamon rolls,

Like there's something about a cinnamon roll.

It is just so insanely delicious.

But carrot cake,

Oh my God,

It's just,

You know,

The marriage of the carrots.

And of course,

That insane icing.

And then if you put some nuts in it,

I don't know,

That's like my ultimate dessert.

Not to make,

To eat.

I kind of changed the subject there for a second.

Well,

You know,

Doing this work that you do now and getting,

Getting,

You know,

Your master's degree in mythology,

Becoming a mythologist.

Can you trace anything back to your childhood that would have indicated or suggested that you,

This was going to be a passion for you later in life?

Well,

In retrospect,

Yes.

And actually,

I got a PhD in mythology.

The,

I wasn't aware of it at the time,

But it was,

But a couple of things occurred to me later once I was really working mythology.

One,

You know,

Getting a PhD and even doing what I do now,

There's a lot of research and reading and which I really enjoy.

And one of my dad's favorite stories to tell about me when he was still alive is how when I was like two and he was in graduate school for a degree in math,

One of his classmates would come over to study and my mom was working.

She was a nurse.

And so during the days I would,

When he wasn't in class,

I was at home with him and I would go and get my little cardboard suitcase of books and sit at the kitchen table and work with them.

So,

So I said,

Conversationalist,

I could also say like,

You know,

There's something deep in me that is the study or researcher.

You know,

I'm always,

Always doing that.

But then when I started telling stories,

Which has been a primary part of my work as a pathologist,

At a point I remembered that when I was a girl,

I used to do that.

You know,

I can remember sitting with the posse of childhood,

Of kids in my neighborhood in the shady parts of the yard,

You know,

On a,

When the afternoon sun got really hot in the summer.

And we'd sit in a circle and people,

And I would say,

Okay,

I'll tell you a story.

What do you want in it?

Oh,

A horse.

What color?

Oh,

White.

Oh,

Okay.

And then I would just make up these stories or I would tell them stories that I was reading.

But I'd completely forgotten about that,

You know,

Until years later.

Well,

I,

You know,

I'm a firm believer in sometimes in our childhoods,

What we're going to be or how we're going to show up in the world,

Kind of like already shows up,

You know,

Or is,

Is like a beacon to what we're going to do later in life.

I am intrigued.

You do,

Obviously,

I know that you have this incredible podcast,

Myth Matters.

How else do you utilize your PhD?

Um,

What's your vision for the,

The work that you were doing and you're studying for your future as well?

Well,

I,

I went,

I started studying mythology and,

You know,

And this will,

Hopefully this will sound coherent.

But for a lot of the years that I was figuring my way through this,

You know,

It wasn't necessarily.

I think I have always wanted to have some lens,

Some thing,

Way of understanding what we do.

You know,

Why do people do what they do?

I mean,

It might seem like a complete tangent,

But my undergraduate degree was in economics,

But I studied it because the teacher that I had who really inspired me understood it as a way of thinking about human behavior.

So mythology is a way of bringing together what we now call psychology,

But also religion and art and,

You know,

All of,

You know,

And in the language I use now,

Like the things that we long for,

You know,

As individuals,

As souls,

As,

So it's,

It allows me to think about the world we create and what we do and who we are,

You know,

And what our aspirations are.

So that interest combined with my desire to empower people,

You know,

And,

And find some way to change the world without assuming that I know,

You know,

What this better world looks like.

I do believe that it's out there.

And so my,

Everything that I have done with story has been designed to help people understand the power of stories as a tool for understanding yourself,

For understanding your life,

For finding your own authority in your own life through both sharing the stories and demonstrating,

And then also demonstrating that,

You know,

How I do that or leading people through a process of it.

So there's been the podcast,

Lots of workshops,

And,

You know,

I work with people individually as well.

Great.

Thank you for that.

You know,

A lot of people,

I don't know if I would say conflate is the right word,

But,

You know,

They think of mythology.

They think of those great mythological figures.

And then of course,

We talk about archetypes in our lives and our,

You know,

I mean,

I always think about William Blake and his work that he's done.

Now,

Would you say that when we're working in the mythological context,

Or,

You know,

If you have a client,

Do you bring in archetypes?

Do you see those,

You know,

Mythological characters and ancient archetypes as the same thing or slightly different?

I'm so curious.

Well,

So the way that I understand all of this,

Part of the power,

The power of myths comes from their relationship to the archetypes,

Which Jung said were,

You know,

He postulated,

Because there are these things that repeat and repeat so much that there must be these core patterns in our psyche.

And that makes sense to me,

You know,

Based on looking at the myths and also,

You know,

Just the way that our experience is formed by the fact that we're human,

In human bodies,

In human societies.

But I don't work with archetypes very much because I found more value in James Hillman's idea of the archetypal.

And James Hillman followed Jung,

You know,

He was,

He,

That's his,

He was the president of the Jungian Institute in Zurich and everything.

So he saw this as an extension,

Not a rebuttal of what Jung came up with.

But the difference is that rather than saying,

Oh,

That is an archetype,

So therefore we can identify a set of archetypes,

When you think about archetypal,

Then that's a quality in something.

So,

You know,

In my podcast,

Myth Matters,

When I tell a story,

I invite people pay attention to the moment that attracts your attention.

It's an opening into the story for you.

Okay,

Well,

One of the reasons that I do that is because that feeling of significance suggests that that moment is archetypal,

That it's a locus of meaning for the person.

And it may,

Depending on how they work with it,

They might trace it back and go,

Oh,

You know,

This really resonates with me because this takes me back to,

You know,

My mom and mom,

Mother is an archetype.

But it might not,

It might be obscure in terms of the literature of archetypes,

Because that tends to focus on,

You know,

Just a handful of the ones that are super important.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Oh,

That's,

Thank you.

Thank you.

Because I was interested in how,

You know,

If you'd find relatedness,

But that was really beautifully said.

So thank you.

You know,

Again,

I'm like a fan of favorites,

And some people hate these questions.

So,

But do you have a favorite myth and why?

There are so many gorgeous myths from all over the world,

But I love to just pick people's brains around their favorites around whatever it is.

Well,

You're right.

There are a lot of really great stories.

And in a way,

Whichever one I'm working with at the time is kind of my favorite.

But having done this for as long as I have,

The Sumerian myth of Inanna is an enduring favorite for a few reasons.

I mean,

I think the one thing that I just love about this story,

And I find so compelling.

So this,

The Sumerian,

I mean,

This story,

The written records of it are like 4000 years old.

I mean,

We're talking before Homer,

We're going way back.

And if you read the Wolkstein,

Diane Wolkstein's translation of the myth,

And she did that,

She was a very,

She was a really important storyteller here in the United States.

And she worked with this guy,

Samuel Noah Kramer,

Who was one of the premier scholars in Sumerian culture.

So it's legit,

As well as being this like wonderfully poetic translation.

It's so resonant,

The psychology of the characters.

I mean,

It's true.

It's like,

We're not running across the steps chasing sheep,

You know,

At least I'm not.

But the metaphors and the psychology,

It's like,

And it blows my mind,

You know,

With all the ways that the world's changed,

You know,

All the ways that we change the way that we live with technology.

And yet in our core beings,

We're just like those people living in the Neolithic.

To me,

That's profound.

And then there's the arc of her story.

And many people who are familiar with Inanna know the story of her descent to the underworld.

But there is a bunch before that and after that talk about how she comes into being,

How she decides what kind of goddess she's going to be,

How she fulfills all those ambitions,

Gets her powers.

She gets her powers because she gets her grandfather,

God Anki,

The god of wisdom,

Drunk,

And he gives them to her.

I mean,

So we could stop right there,

Too,

Right?

In terms of how fantastic that is.

Yeah,

So her entire story,

I think,

Speaks to a complete cycle of life.

And I just think that's remarkable.

Yes,

I've always been a fan of Trickster.

Trickster is like my favorite,

Favorite,

Favorite,

Favorite,

Favorite.

Would you say Inanna's a little bit of a trickster?

Yes,

You know,

The thing about her.

So Tricksters,

I have a thing for Ravens.

Raven's one of that.

That's why Raven is,

You know,

On the podcast,

The artwork for Myth Matters.

It's a raven sitting on a spiral.

Yes.

So one thing about Tricksters is that they tend to be in the middle.

You know,

They occupy those liminal spaces because they're on the edge of things.

That's the nature of their creativity.

And Inanna is also kind of in between.

I mean,

In a way,

She's everywhere because she's everything and she's eminent.

You know,

She's the divine in the earth.

But she's associated with the edges of things like the marshlands,

The places that aren't really solid ground and aren't really water either.

And she,

In some of her other myths,

She does a lot of flipping of things.

She creates rules by establishing justice.

She flips genders in people.

So yes,

In that sense,

Trickster.

You are speaking my language.

I just have to say,

I'm just,

Uh,

I could say I'm verklempt right now because I'm just overwhelmed by how amazing this is.

Well,

I'd love to ask the second question,

Which is,

Did you grow up in a religious household?

And,

You know,

If so,

What did that look like?

And,

You know,

How has that evolved?

Maybe that connection with the divine or that which we cannot name.

How has that evolved over time?

Well,

I did grow up in a religious household.

Yeah.

I grew up in a pretty conservative Lutheran church and was very much attached to Jesus for quite a while.

But I think like a lot of people,

As I got older and I started contemplating this whole notion of who goes to hell and why that happens and um,

The hierarchy of lives,

You know,

Humans are at the top.

So we get to do whatever we want to do to everything else.

And by the way,

Men are above women.

That was a view of the divine.

Me,

What I usually refer to as the mystery that seemed far too human and limited to me.

Uh,

So that's another way in which working with mythology has helped me rethink and re-enter a more active spiritual life after some years of just going,

Well,

Whatever,

You know,

I don't fit in any of these paradigms.

Yeah.

I really do think,

You know,

Um,

Religion sometimes,

You know,

People join various churches,

Synagogues for community.

You know,

They might not necessarily ascribe to the certain God or goddess,

If you want to talk about pagan religions,

But they they're looking for community and belonging.

Um,

I think sometimes people are perfectly happy and rightfully so going through the world without those connections,

Without,

You know,

A connection to either community or to a particular God.

Um,

You know,

I do think we're living in a very exciting time and,

You know,

You were talking about,

You know,

What is the conversation around mythology,

Mythological context,

How mythology moves in the world.

There are whole conversations happening that are really,

And,

And of course,

You know,

With archaeology and,

You know,

Um,

Sciences discovering more about old stories and finally deciphering so many cuneiform tablets that have been languishing in museums.

We're discovering more and more about the stories that,

Um,

The ancient peoples told.

So like living today is very exciting as far as I'm concerned for both mythology and religion,

Because we're in this gorgeous place where new thought around both,

You know,

Is encouraged,

Maybe not with religion so much,

But I'm hopeful.

But I mean,

Would you agree that it's an exciting time for thought in both of these places?

Oh yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I,

I totally agree.

I mean,

This is,

This is kind of an over,

Maybe,

I hope not an oversimplification,

But an easy way of looking at it.

I think that,

Well,

From what we understand now,

You know,

We have been going back and forth in this conversation about myths,

And I put religion in the same category because I see that all as like narratives and attempt to describe experiences of the unknowable,

You know?

And so you can either believe it,

Historically the positions have either been either you believe it,

And so then technically most people wouldn't call it a myth,

Because we think myths aren't true,

But again,

I don't think about it that way,

Or you dismiss it because it's not true,

You know?

And just go,

Well,

And I think that history has shown us that you can't do either one of those things,

Or we can't do either one of those things anymore.

We can't just all believe the same thing.

And that just blind belief keeps us in the dark about a lot of our motivations and what's really going on in us as individuals and as in societies,

But on the other hand,

We can't just dismiss it either,

Because it goes into the unconscious.

And then we're still,

We're still dictate,

You know,

We're still living in it.

So,

You know,

Like in the case of we're both here in the States,

Regardless of whether or not you are a Christian believer,

Your consciousness is Christian.

And so what do we do about that?

See,

And that's where it gets exciting to me then,

Because I think our relationship to these things has progressed enough that now we can have this kind of conversation and go,

Well,

What's a value here?

What isn't?

What is driving this?

Where are their new metaphors showing up?

What does that tell us about where our psyche is going,

You know,

Collectively and as individuals?

So,

Yes.

And that is just so thrilling to me.

And,

You know,

And what we're talking about is,

You know,

The next iteration or evolution or,

You know,

Painful birth,

Shall we say,

Of a new maybe paradigm or thought around religion or mythology or what have you.

But I think it's equally as important to understand how much,

How deeply,

Like you could say Christianity owes a lot of its inspiration and other religions,

Of course,

To ancient myth.

And the reason I bring that up is because I had a class,

I think I can't,

I'm going to ruin the name,

But it was about the body in the Hebrew Bible.

And I had never given that any thought whatsoever.

But we had to do a paper,

Our final paper.

And I love writing papers.

I am sick like that.

I love it so much.

And I found this really interesting,

And I was not Christian,

So it gave me a lot more freedom to just go my own way.

And I found these interesting papers that were written about Baal,

And I think Inanna and other gods,

And they were examinations of songs that were written about Baal and Inanna or Baal and other gods and goddesses.

But you can directly trace those songs to song of songs in the Bible.

And,

You know,

The imagery,

Some of the imagery is exactly the same.

Some of the language is exactly the same.

You know,

It's a very racy,

Racy book in the Bible.

It's very racy.

But a lot of people don't like to talk about it.

Some Bibles don't even include it.

But you can trace the lineage of the inspiration,

The mythological story,

The gorgeousness of those much older songs,

Much older creations.

And they were just co-opted and slightly changed into the Bible.

And I know you would probably agree with me.

There is so much in our modern religious world that can be attributed to myths that came earlier.

Oh,

Yeah,

Absolutely,

Absolutely.

And in fact,

I mean,

So you mentioned Baal.

So Baal was part of when the Babylonians came in and they and overthrew the Sumerians.

The Sumerians developed a really rich and sophisticated culture.

In many ways,

They were like the first city culture.

And of course,

Then over time,

As their influence and their innovation spread out to other peoples,

Then,

You know,

They get overthrown.

And so my point is there's a direct relationship between those stories and the Sumerians.

An interesting story about the Sumerians shortly after this was in the late 1800s,

I believe,

Early 1900s.

I'm not great with dates.

I always have them written down.

The after the cuneiform,

Sumerian cuneiform,

After that code was broken.

And so then they could translate those tablets and everything they were finding.

An archaeological society,

I believe it was a combination of people in the UK and the United States,

Got together to do a big project to investigate all of that literature because they thought that it would validate the Bible.

And what they discovered is that actually all of those old stories predate the Bible and include things like the flood.

And it really upset all of the arguments that they wanted to make about the primacy of the Bible as being this unique transmission that came in,

That had no predecessors,

That had no,

You know,

Other,

No corollaries.

So,

You know,

From a certain perspective,

Bad news.

But see,

Again,

From my perspective,

And I think this is where you're going with this.

No,

Absolutely fantastic.

Because it shows how from the earliest records that we have of ourselves as humans,

We've had this engagement with this thing,

This force,

This mystery,

This like,

And have done the best that we can to capture the significance of that.

So,

Yeah.

Thank you.

I just love talking to you.

This is just really fun for me.

Because I wasn't a Christian in seminary,

I was able to go to other places and read other papers that were non-Christian to flesh out my ideas and my papers.

And for me,

That's just the height of what,

You know,

Discovery looks like and having an open mind and how exciting that makes writing papers for me way more exciting,

Which made it less painful.

Okay,

I'm just going to put that out there.

Well,

I would love to ask you the main question of the podcast,

Which is,

I would so appreciate if you would share one story or two stories,

However many you feel comfortable with about something that you felt was magical or miraculous,

Maybe even mysterious.

I'd love to hear what you want to share.

Okay,

Okay.

Well,

There's one thing.

Okay,

So one thing that immediately comes to mind,

Requires just a little bit of setup.

So,

Some number of years ago,

So this was like 2000,

I was living in an artist's loft in LA.

So,

In this big space that had this metal staircase that went up to a loft area where the kitchen was.

And I was living there with two cats,

Atticus and Harriet.

And when Atticus was a kitten,

His favorite thing to do was run up and down the steps in the house that I was living in then and be chased.

So,

It's like every night when he was little,

You know,

He wanted to be chased up and down the steps.

So,

So now he's a much older cat,

But still,

You know,

Likes the game.

And I'm living in this other place.

And he starts jumping up from wherever he's sleeping in the evenings and running up and down this metal staircase,

Like someone is chasing him.

And it wasn't me,

I wasn't like,

And it didn't,

At this point,

It was,

It had been years,

You know what I mean?

And I'm like,

And I would say to him,

You know,

What are you doing?

Like,

Who are you playing with or whatever?

So,

This was,

Went on,

Was,

Went on for a while.

And at the same time,

A friend told me about this chiropractor who also sometimes like was a psychic who also sometimes channeled,

Channeled things.

And I was getting ready to do some big things or whatever.

And I thought,

Well,

I don't know.

I don't know what's going to happen,

But I go to this other chiropractor.

I mean,

I made an appointment with this guy and I thought,

Well,

Whatever.

So,

I go,

I make the appointment,

I should go,

We meet,

You know,

He's like,

Why are you here?

And I tell him,

You know,

My back.

So,

In the course of the treatment,

Which was very subtle,

He was like,

Just mostly just had his hands on my back.

At a point,

He stops with his hands on my back.

And then he goes,

Do you know anyone named Henry?

And I said,

Well,

The only Henry I've ever known was my grandfather.

And he has been dead for more than 10 years.

And this chiropractor's name is Daniel.

Daniel says to me,

Well,

Henry is here and has some things to say to you,

You know,

And I mean,

I'm pretty open-minded about things,

But I think skepticism is an important part of that,

Right?

Like,

I'd like to think I'm not gullible.

And so,

You know,

I'm thinking,

All right,

I'm sorry.

This is like,

I'm not sure,

I can't explain how this guy could have pulled the name Henry out,

But,

And so I said,

Oh,

Okay,

Is that so?

And then he says to me,

Yeah,

So your grandfather,

I mean,

For one thing,

He wants you to know you are living a very interesting life and he loves playing with your cat Atticus on the stairs.

Okay,

Now I'm face down on the table.

So,

You know,

I am like freaking out.

And so then he went on,

You know,

And then he goes on and he tells me some things,

Including one thing that I remember,

He said,

You know,

You drive too fast and you need to be more careful driving.

And he told me a couple things about my mom.

And at a point I said,

You know,

He was like,

Do you have any questions for me?

And I said,

Well,

How is this happening?

Where are you?

And Daniel says to me,

This is like,

There's not any way really to communicate what this is going on.

Like he can kind of send me some impressions,

But you know,

It's like all circuits blowing,

You know,

I don't really,

All I can say is that.

He's had things to do here on this plane.

And it's a much more complicated what happens after death than many of us realize.

Yeah.

And so then,

So that was kind of the end of the conversation.

And then when I got off the table,

By the time I got off the table,

I was in a a different state of presence.

Like,

I don't know if you've ever done any holotropic breath work or like anything that like really suddenly where you suddenly it's like,

Oh,

This is what actually being fully present in the moment is like,

At least I'm getting to do it for a little while.

Yeah.

That's where I was.

And that lasted for about a day.

Now,

The last part of this story is that,

So he continued,

I mean,

He continued to run with the cat.

And so then I would just say hello to him.

And not that long after that,

I moved to the desert near to Joshua Tree,

California,

Which is where I lived for quite a long time.

And there were no steps there or anything.

And Atticus,

Unfortunately,

Died very unexpectedly.

Yeah.

But then I would go hiking in the desert.

And there were a couple of spots standing up high where I would go up high and be like looking out over everything.

And I could feel my grandfather there,

You know,

At this point,

He'd been around enough and I'd talked to him enough.

Yeah.

And I would just stand up there and,

You know,

Talk to him.

And that happened a number of times.

And then at a point I noticed I was like,

He's gone.

I could feel it.

And he hasn't,

I have not been aware of him being in my life since then,

Like around with me here.

Wow.

Wow.

I mean,

The last thing anyone expects when they go to the chiropractor or something like that,

They're like,

I'm just here for some body work.

Yeah.

Well,

I did kind of set myself up,

But I,

You know,

But I didn't have any expectation.

I mean,

Yeah.

I also want to say kudos to you for the cool cat names.

I love both of those names.

When you said them,

I was like,

Oh my God,

I'm in love already.

Just the names people give to their animals,

Just sometimes they're so inspired.

So I love that name.

I'm curious,

Did Atticus,

You know,

I've had this experience a couple of times with beloved pets.

Did Atticus ever come say hi to you or tell you that he was okay after he passed?

He didn't.

That was a pretty traumatic.

And also that was the first time that had ever happened to me.

Now,

I did,

See,

This would have been two and a half years ago,

Maybe.

When I moved here to Fort Collins,

I moved here with two very old cats,

Brothers,

Harry and Wilt.

And Harry died not long after I got here.

And then Wilt and I were together for another year.

And then he died.

He was 18.

And the day after Wilt passed away,

I was just consumed with regret about things I'd done or hadn't done.

And in a way,

It was kind of pointless.

And I knew that,

You know,

I mean,

The upshot of it was that I'd taken him to the vet that morning.

And I,

But I already knew that.

And we'd had a conversation the night before.

But nevertheless,

I wished that I had said some other things to him.

So,

You know,

So I'm grieving.

Now I'm living in this town where I don't know anyone and I'm new.

And it was going to be the beginning of my new life.

And now both of my companions are gone.

And I'm just,

I just can't stand it.

You know,

I'm like,

I just can't stand it.

The regret that I feel about what has happened.

And so I say,

I was out in this park.

So I just say,

I'm like,

Look,

Wilt or whoever,

Anything,

You know,

Whoever's with me right now.

And this,

Can I just get a sign?

I'm dying here,

You know,

With this,

Like some,

Some sign.

And so,

So I made this prayer.

And then,

Okay,

I'm not gonna,

I'm just gonna try not to think about it anymore.

And then the next morning,

What woke me up was Wilt's morning sound.

And it was right in my ear as if he were right there.

And I could,

It was,

I could feel him next to me.

And the second I heard it,

I knew everything is okay.

He's fine.

I don't need to be dragging myself through all of this.

And that was pretty huge.

So,

Well,

I do have to say that I'm trying to keep myself from crying.

Because I'm sure most of us and most of my listeners have had that experience of loving a pet so deeply and then eventually having to say goodbye when they've gotten too old or elderly or sick or what have you.

And it is,

You know,

It is an excruciating thing to go through.

I know that my favorite cat,

Fatty Lumpkins,

I had an experience that I will never be able to explain after he passed away that allowed me to understand that death is not really what we think it is.

It is not what we think it is.

And so with that being said,

Did this chiropractor,

You know,

When he said death is a lot more complicated or what happens on the,

Did he ever tell you what he meant by that?

No,

But I didn't.

I don't think I asked,

You know,

Because as I say that,

By that,

When I got off of the table,

I was in a different state and subsequently I've had other experiences and I've also met other people and tuned in to things that other people are sharing,

Like along the lines of,

Well,

Like the telepathy tapes.

I don't know if you listen to that podcast or not.

Yeah,

Because,

You know,

Because the combination of that experience and others that I've had and studying mythology,

It's just very clear to me that it is more complicated than what we're really able to express.

But there is a certain,

There is a recycling of souls.

There is a,

You know,

There is an evolution of consciousness that is part of some set of repeated visits back to earth.

I mean,

To me,

That seems obvious.

Now,

I wouldn't ask anyone to take that on my word,

But yeah.

How did you know I was going to ask you what you thought death was or what death is comprised of or,

You know,

It's,

I mean,

Honestly,

Myths,

Love,

Big stories are on love and thwarted love or stymied love or illicit love.

And then death,

You know,

The end of all things,

What's on the other side of that veil or that door,

That threshold,

You know,

It's the great mystery.

It is the greatest mystery of our lives.

And I think many of us get glimpses,

You know,

Whether it's through the visit of a beloved pet after they passed away.

You know,

One of my guests said a couple of years ago,

There's no doubt to me that what survives after death is love,

That energy of love.

And that's what can come through,

Especially with pets.

The love is able to go across the barrier to let all of us who are still in these bodies know that there is mystery still to be found,

That there are things we can't even conceive of yet happening somewhere that,

Again,

We can't even conceive of.

But it is a little bit fun trying to conceive of it.

Do you think?

Yeah.

Oh,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Um,

And I love the idea of love being what crosses the boundary.

I think that's true.

I mean,

That's certainly what I felt with Wilt and even with my grandfather.

You know,

He was not someone that I was close to as a child.

He was,

You know,

He was he was a lot older.

My mom was the youngest of the children by quite a bit.

So,

You know,

You always think your grandparents are old.

But I mean,

I thought mine were real.

I thought that set was really ancient.

And yet,

Yeah,

It's like this,

You know,

This concern,

You know,

He's like they're like giving what has advice for me or like things that he thinks that I need to know.

And what would motivate that?

What else would motivate that,

You know?

Yes.

I mean,

Love and concern.

And,

You know,

Every I've heard several people say,

Oh,

Well,

You know,

Our souls come into this life because we have work to do on our own souls and and what have you.

And we're like clarifying ourselves.

But,

You know,

As in your grandfather's,

I was just thinking,

Oh,

The work,

Even when we're dead,

Like we still have work to do.

So I guess there's just work everywhere,

No matter where we go.

Right,

Right,

Right,

Right.

Something more,

Something more to know.

I mean,

You know,

I guess it's.

Amounts,

You know,

And when you were saying that and I was thinking,

Oh,

Yeah,

Right.

Something more love,

Love and work always needing to work.

It reminded me of that.

I can't remember where he said it,

But where Rilke said.

That love and loving another that that that's the greatest task.

That's the great challenge.

It's the hardest thing to do.

And everything we do in life is directed at that,

At having at developing that ability and having that experience.

I agree.

And it's exhausting.

Yes,

It can be.

I hope you got some kicks out of the conversation that we had this week.

And I just hope that each and every one of you just loves hearing about myth,

About folktale and fantasy as much as I do,

Frankly.

Yeah,

It's kind of an addiction of mine,

But it's a good addiction.

And I think that each and every one of us should have at least one good addiction.

I myself,

You know,

Believe deeply in myth,

Believe deeply in the stories we tell ourselves,

The stories that our cultures create,

Because,

You know,

Whether we like it or not,

Those stories,

They really influence all of us.

And,

You know,

Me,

I'm a firm believer in liminal spaces.

And so any excuse to talk about the places where archetypes can come alive and work their magic in this world.

I just want to thank each and every one of you for listening.

It means so much.

Don't forget to share this podcast with everyone,

Even strangers on the subway,

Because sharing is caring,

As we all know.

So thank you for listening.

And here's my one request.

Be like Dr.

Catherine.

I mean,

Live in the mystery.

I know so many of my guests live in the mystery,

But Dr.

Catherine is really deeply entrenched in it,

Deeply invested and is almost like swimming through the myths,

Swimming through those energies that the myths create,

Those archetypes bring into our world.

She's really immersed in it.

And by,

You know,

Kind of immersing herself and making her way through,

She's coming to a deeper understanding,

A more powerful understanding of what it looks like to live into myth or live with myth and fairy tale and folk tale,

And then bring those understandings to the world.

So be like Dr.

Catherine and whatever your mystery is,

Whatever your magical liminal space is,

Live with it.

Try to bring it into the world because honestly,

All of us out here,

We need that magic.

We need those myths.

We need what you're going to bring from those liminal spaces because they're out there.

They might be hiding,

But I have so much faith in you and the fact that you'll be able to navigate those kind of effervescent liminal spaces.

And then I will be first in line,

Waiting to hear and waiting to listen and waiting to experience the kind of treasure that you have dug up and brought back to all of us.

See you next time for the very next episode.

And until then,

I hope that your summer as it is slowly,

Slowly,

Slowly ending.

We are in the dog days of August.

I hope that you're enjoying the sun and I hope you're enjoying picnics and parties and afternoon teas and good art and good food.

And I hope you're enjoying a whole hell of a lot of fabulous and joyful community.