Interview: Catarina Lillehook ~ Miracles In The Mountains!

Catarina talks about her trip to Mongolia, and how in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by wilderness, she had an encounter that surprised and delighted her. She tells how of even in the remotest of places, life can remind you that joy and happiness are everywhere!

Transcript

Greetings,

Everybody,

And welcome back to your Midweek Miracle episode.

I have great gratitude to the dear friend who introduced me to this episode's guest,

Katerina Lilihook.

And the guest's name is Katerina,

Not the person who introduced me to Katerina.

But,

Um,

Yeah,

Sometimes people say,

Hey,

Wink,

Wink,

Nudge,

Nudge,

I have someone for the show.

And you know what?

I get to meet another splendid human being out there who's making the world a more beautiful place.

But who cares about that?

Who cares?

I am here to introduce you to Katerina.

Um,

Besides for being fluent in Mandarin,

Okay,

She was born and raised in Sweden and is a former freelance journalist.

She's also the author of two books on China.

She currently lives in Switzerland and,

Um,

She's so poetic.

She describes Switzerland as the perfect gateway to other worlds,

A place where rivers have no names and dragons rule the sky.

So,

You know,

Come on.

With my love for fantasy and sci-fi literature,

I thought we are a match made in heaven.

And guess what?

We were and we are.

She's become such a stalwart,

Just supporter of the podcast and pretty much everything I'm doing.

And we need that in the world.

We need more of that.

People who just go out and champion other people because,

You know what?

It comes back around.

So anyway,

Without further ado,

I can't wait for you to meet her and hear some of her travel stories.

So here you go.

My interview with Katerina Lilihook.

And our guide and the horseman are like,

Okay,

Let's go meet this guy.

And it turns out it's a young Japanese guy.

He's out there alone on a horse with a pack horse by his side.

And I mean,

This is complete wilderness.

So we're like,

Wait,

What?

What are you doing here?

We're at least there with a guide,

You know,

People who can help us if we get lost or something happens.

And you know what he said?

He said,

I'm searching for happiness.

I would probably say I'm a wanderer.

I really feel very strongly drawn to other worlds and other dimensions,

Which is good and bad.

It's good because it enables me to do what I do,

Which is write fantasy because those worlds feel very much at home to me.

It's also a little bit bad because I'm here now.

And it can be rough sometimes to feel that you don't belong and that like,

Is everyone else weird or is it actually me that is weird?

But if you ask me to just do one word,

I'd say wanderer.

And did you have a sense of that being a part of yourself when you were a kid?

No,

I didn't.

And I think probably because I grew up on a farm,

So I had a very grounded childhood,

Always playing in nature,

Always being with animals and always kind of feeling very close to them.

I didn't have like some actually seeing their spirit or communicating,

But I probably communicate at some level I was not aware of because I was so close to them.

So no,

It came later,

This feeling of like,

Hmm,

What am I doing here?

I always err on the side of I'm the weird one and I'm like,

I'm okay with that.

I mean,

I go through periods where I like to be around people and then there are periods where I'm like,

I just want to hide from the human race.

So I understand kind of what you're talking about.

So you're a wanderer and that's how you self-describe.

How did it happen that you went from a farm,

Which I'm going to presume and correct me if I'm wrong,

Was in your family maybe for generations?

Was your family farmers?

Yeah,

Yes and no because they moved around and stuff.

And my father was actually working in the city in an office as a consultant until he decided to take over the farm.

So it's a little bit of mixture there of sort of city and farm and everything,

But he ended up being more full-time farmer because he also felt a very strong connection to animals and nature.

So,

Yeah.

Well,

When you were a kid,

This wanderer piece,

How did you happen to kind of direct your life towards that?

How did it happen that you became a wanderer?

Because I know a little bit about you.

My listeners do not.

So I grew up all over the world and that was because my parents took us along because of course we were little.

But it sounds to me like you have intentionally and very deliberately gone wandering and exploring the world.

And so how did that happen?

I just got really drawn to traveling in maybe teens,

Kind of late teens.

It bloomed.

I'm not sure where it came from,

But there was animals,

There was nature,

And then there was this amazing thirst to see the world.

So I spent years traveling,

Just traveling and then coming back to Sweden and working and earning money and traveling,

Coming back,

Doing uni,

And not applying for a job when I graduated.

No,

Straight out traveling again.

So that went on and off for many years.

And then I came back here and stayed for quite some time,

Met my husband,

And the first thing we said is that we're going to move abroad.

And that's how we started living abroad.

I mean,

He had lived abroad before and I had lived abroad,

But only like six months or nine months or a year.

But after that,

We went and took off to Asia and stayed away for a really long time.

Now,

When you were a teen and before you met your husband,

How did you pick where you wanted to travel?

That was a problem because I wanted to go everywhere.

But if you're on a long trip and you work your way around,

You'll get lots of opportunities.

The longest I did was a year and a half.

And then you sort of settle down,

You grab a job,

You earn some money.

And then it kind of depends on,

I think,

A lot of what people you meet and who you hook up with.

Are they going to go somewhere or are you going to go on your own?

So it just kind of worked itself out in that way.

And I remember on that long trip that I came,

As far as Asia goes,

To Hong Kong.

And I remember thinking,

But China is such a special country.

But it's a year and a half,

I need to go.

And I was kind of like,

Damn,

I didn't make it to China.

But from what happened later,

It was probably not meant to happen right then.

So the universe said,

No,

No,

No.

Go home now for a while and come back later.

Okay.

I am so curious,

When you were a teen,

Because let's start there,

What was one of your favorite countries,

Cities,

Maybe places that you traveled that really resonated with your heart?

As a teen,

Not as strongly as later on,

Because I think then Europe was already,

It was already a big thing to go to Italy or France or Greece or something.

So I was quite happy with Europe for a while.

And then later,

It was like,

You start thinking Australia,

You start thinking New Zealand and then Asia.

And then Asia pulled super strongly later.

Like insanely,

I just had to go there.

Sometimes we don't know why we're pulled somewhere,

But it can change our entire lives.

Because you and I have corresponded and I've done a little research on you or tried to figure out just who you are,

I know,

Or I suspect,

And correct me if I'm wrong,

That you have a really soft spot or maybe a tender spot for the Sami people.

How did that originate in your life?

Yeah,

It's so funny.

Everybody asks me that now,

Since the main protagonist in my book is a Sami girl.

It is interesting.

I have a soft spot for ethnic minorities in general,

As I feel they are really,

In every country,

Suppressed and run over and all of that.

And obviously,

I have then naturally an extra soft spot for the suppressed or whatever you want to call it,

Indigenous people in my own country.

Also,

Because I have travelled a lot and I have visited lots of crazy places and stayed with indigenous tribes in the jungles of Sumatra and Mongolia,

Which was a super special trip,

By the way.

And then,

I think for some of us,

We travel the world and then we sort of get back to where we originate from.

And I had this drawing or being drawn up north in Sweden always,

But I didn't really start travelling up there until maybe in my 30s.

And finally,

I got to.

.

.

I can't explain it,

Other than maybe I lived there in a past life,

But I'm super drawn to Sami,

Sami culture,

The landscape up there,

Reindeer.

It's like the most magical animal.

So,

That's a hard question to answer because I don't have Sami blood or anything.

Just something in me resonates super strongly with that part of the world and those people.

Okay.

You know,

If you were to tell my audience one fact maybe about the Sami people that you think they should know,

What would it be?

Well,

I mean,

It's a little bit hard.

I'm super drawn to Sami folklore and mythology and all that,

But I also do not know a lot of Sami,

So I can't say how do they actually live today.

All I know is that there has been an upswing in the younger generation as far as creating their own handicraft.

For example,

This is a typical Sami bracelet,

Stuff like that,

And music.

And I'm not sure how many of them would be wearing traditional clothes unless it's a special day or market or something like that.

But,

Yeah.

I mean,

Yeah,

I would like to get to know a lot more.

I'm sort of,

Right now,

Really liking them from a distance,

If you see what I mean.

Obviously,

If I'm up there,

I will speak to them.

But in Stockholm,

I'm sure they're here as well,

But I haven't met any.

So,

Yeah,

I would love to meet them more since I'm so drawn to them,

And I would love to discuss with them and ask them lots of questions.

Yes,

I'm a question-answer.

Sometimes it drives those who love me crazy because I always want to know more.

They're like,

You're like a three-year-old toddler.

And I just say,

I am just curious,

Okay?

I would,

Just for my own edification,

I would love for you to share with me one of your maybe most challenging or craziest or most adventurous travel stories.

I think a lot of people are,

They travel vicariously through other people.

And I think that,

You know,

Meeting someone like you who goes to these remote places and is so brave and so inquisitive and just,

You used the word thirsty or thirst before,

Thirsty for encounter,

It helps other people be brave and understand that they can do things.

So I'd love for you to tell a story about traveling that maybe was a little adventurous and fun and interesting.

Yeah,

I've been trying to take my pick because I was thinking of that might come up and I've made so many incredible journeys,

But still it was easy for me to pick Mongolia.

Me and my husband went horseback riding in the Mongolian wilderness.

This is a while ago now,

But we went on this trip and we had a guide and like some horsemen and a cook and us,

Just us.

And we were camping out in the Mongolian wilderness for like seven or eight or 10 days or something like that.

And the landscape there,

It was so,

I mean,

Like I said,

I've been to so many places,

But here it was something palpable in the air,

Something so fresh,

So raw,

So brutal.

I had this instantaneous feeling that it was something like some energy there since the beginning of times,

Just like ancient,

Like pure.

And I've been trying to put my finger on it since,

Like I said,

I've been meeting with all these off the road people in so many countries.

Here,

I think maybe there was this Northern feeling,

Like the cold,

You know,

It was cold and crisp and clear.

But the funny thing was,

What was really made this trip so special was that at first I just felt that I couldn't tell more than like,

Wow,

I'm so sucked into these rivers and these forests and these horses like that.

And then it was weird because you meet no one out there.

It's complete wilderness.

I think the whole trip,

We met maybe twice other Mongolian writers and they were there at least.

They wore the traditional clothing,

Which is like from a fantasy world,

Put a cap for the thing and a long frock and a silk sash and they were riding horses and they were rounding up horses.

But that was it,

Like maybe twice and then nothing.

So we're riding there and we're having this great time and one day we spot a writer and we're like,

Who is that?

Like not a Mongolian.

And our guide and the horseman are like,

Okay,

Let's go meet this guy.

And it turns out it's a young Japanese guy.

He's out there alone on a horse with a pack horse by his side.

And I mean,

This is complete wilderness.

So we're like,

Wait,

What?

What are you doing here?

We're at least there with a guide,

You know,

People who can help us if we get lost or something happens.

And he was just the coolest person and you know what he said?

He said,

I'm searching for happiness.

And I'm like,

Wow,

How cool was that?

And I was just trying to digest this and he goes,

Yeah,

You know,

I've been to so many places.

I have traveled all over the world.

I've worked,

I've studied,

But nowhere did I find happiness.

So I decided to come here and look for happiness.

And I thought,

Wait,

He must mean connection to spirit because there is nothing else out here.

Nothing,

Not even roads.

And it made me think and we hung out for a few hours and we chatted to him and then,

You know,

He was on his own with this poor map.

Our horse guys were trying to help him to guide to get to this lake somewhere.

And he just waved goodbye,

You know,

And I'm like,

I'm on my trip.

I'm going to keep searching.

And that just shifted everything for me because we had,

You know,

A lot of people,

Of us spiritual people,

We move a little bit in and out.

We're super spiritual.

And then you kind of like,

You get full out of it.

And I think moving to China because that was pretty rough.

It was a big challenge and quite stressful.

I fell a little bit out of it,

Of the spirituality.

But right then and there,

He like shifted that back by that simple statement because it made me think.

And I'm like,

But that's what I wanted all along.

Connect to spirit.

And then I realized that's what I've been feeling because it's so pure in that ancient land.

I'm like,

It's spirit.

It's here.

It's embracing me.

And he just made it click,

You know.

So after that,

The rest of the trip,

Which was already fantastic,

But after that,

I just started feeling and noticing a lot more.

And,

You know,

There were forests we rode into that were not orange leaves,

But pure yellow,

Yellow.

They were like golden kingdoms.

And our guide,

He was wearing this frock with a hat.

He looked like something,

I mean,

From Lord of the Rings.

So we go through these forests and I couldn't speak.

It was just so massive.

And another super cool,

Like probably the coolest memory from that trip is we're climbing a mountain on our horses and we see two big birds of prey and they're circling on the top of the mountain.

And we're going closer and I'm like hoping,

Hoping,

You know,

That they'll stay as long as possible since I'm obsessed with wildlife.

And we come closer and closer to the top and they don't move away.

And I'm like,

What?

In the end,

They're like maybe five or six meters up.

Huge,

Huge.

We'd see like the patterns of their wings,

The tips of their wings,

Their beaks,

Their heads,

Everything.

And we're right beneath them.

And I just felt spirit so strongly.

I had goosebumps all over.

I couldn't speak.

We're just sitting on our horses just looking up for the longest time.

It was like the universe was like gifting us this.

Like don't make them move away.

Don't make them be afraid of you.

Normally when you see a bird of prey,

It's like a dot in the sky.

But when you come this close and you feel their presence,

Yeah,

That was massive.

So yeah,

That's definitely one of my absolutely coolest memories from a special trip.

That's,

Um,

I just love listening to you.

You kind of make me want to go to Mongolia right now.

It feels like,

Or I'm sensing that you have had,

You know,

Maybe several experiences where you felt close to the soul of the world.

Would you say that's accurate?

That's a lovely expression.

I'm going to use that.

Close to the soul of the world.

Absolutely.

That was like the spot for it.

Totally.

Yeah,

And I think I was going to say,

I felt like I was so close to heaven.

And obviously the mountain was not that high,

But I had this,

Like we were connected.

So yes,

The soul of the world is even better than heaven.

I love that.

Thank you so much for that expression.

I'm going to use it.

Oh yeah,

Use it.

Use it.

Use it.

I think,

You know,

In our modern day and age,

A lot of people are thirsting or looking,

Desperately seeking for the soul of the world or transcendent experience or something that takes them out of themselves so that they can feel that this,

You know,

This world has something going on behind the scenes that they can connect with.

And so I just,

I love your description of going up the mountain.

It's like you're ascending towards the heavens and you have this experience that is kind of,

I mean,

I wouldn't say liminal,

But like such a grace-filled gift.

I mean,

Yes,

I mean,

I think we're so used to animals running away from us or flying away as fast as they possibly can.

I mean,

As they should,

As they should do.

But what a huge gift to,

You know,

Not have those birds of prey move away.

It's,

Wow.

Well,

Thank you.

Thank you for that story.

I'd love to ask you the second question,

Which is,

Did you grow up in a religious household?

And if so,

Did it inform the way you orient yourself towards the mysteries of the world now?

Or did that evolve over time?

I'd love to hear your answer.

No,

I did not grow up in a religious household.

I don't think many people do in Sweden.

I think it's maybe almost a little bit too much the other way.

Like,

Nobody believes in anything,

Actually.

But luckily,

Because my dad was such a nature person and the fact that he'd take me out already,

You know,

As a toddler,

Teaching me all the plants and the flowers and we'd go check on the cows and sometimes,

Like,

If a cow was giving birth,

She'd move away and we'd have to walk and walk and walk until we found her.

And,

I mean,

I remember moonlit nights when we were out in the snow,

Just him and I looking for a cow that was missing.

And so I kind of,

Maybe,

You know,

That's already then when nature became my religion,

Growing up like that.

And I'm so grateful to have that upbringing,

As I don't think a lot of young people today get very grounded in their upbringings.

There are differences in different places,

Of course,

But that,

Yeah,

Not religious,

But spiritual.

And not spiritual in the way that they teach me to sit and meditate,

But just the way he lived,

Just the way he brought me to the animals.

I think that's very spiritual.

Absolutely.

I sometimes house sit or spend long periods of time at this ranch out here in Santa Fe and in the winter,

The best thing is to go to the hot tub and sit in the hot tub.

And right next to the hot tub is this juniper bush and I think I've talked about this before,

But,

You know,

Sometimes I just sit in the hot tub at like 8,

9,

10 at night and I talk to the juniper and I tell it about my day,

My questions,

And we have a relationship.

And then I'm like,

I'm here for you if you want to tell me anything about your day,

I'm happy to listen.

But in that way,

I feel like I've formed a relationship with my just being present to it and it's there and I respect it and that is possible.

It is possible to have a relationship with a plant.

I want people to know that.

And I think,

You know,

My father is Swedish and Norwegian and I remember that he is,

Yeah,

He actually did some genealogy,

Hired a genealogist in,

I can't remember if it was Norway or Sweden and it was so funny.

The genealogist did a whole bunch of work and I think came back six months later and said,

I don't know like how to tell you this,

But I'm your third cousin.

And it was just actually really,

Really funny.

We found out a lot of stories about our family and some great,

Some not so great.

But I was always struck by his father and how stoic he was and how just quiet and funny,

Very funny,

But quiet.

And,

You know,

My dad had a little bit of that stoicism,

But my perception has been that people from Sweden and Norway are,

They're very stoic.

They're very reserved.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah,

On the big whole.

Yeah,

Definitely.

Yeah.

Someone said to me,

Well,

You know,

It's kind of ingrained in the genetics because you live so,

The population lives so far north and it can be cold a lot.

So you get used to being in your house and being insular and inward facing.

And I just thought that was so fascinating,

Like landscape or atmosphere creating or maybe inculcating personality traits just because of it's too cold to go outside and see someone.

So you stay inside.

Yeah.

I'm someone who loves being in bed and inside.

So I think that's part of my Swedish heritage.

I don't mind being alone,

But there's also something about,

You know,

Swedish folktale and myth,

Norwegian folktale and myth that I find so fascinating.

And I think it's because it emerges out of a place where,

You know,

I sense that there's a lot of solitude and darkness.

And frankly,

You know,

500,

600,

700 years ago,

A way of life that was very different from the rest of Europe,

The European cities.

Have you done a lot of research for your books about folktale,

Myth,

Swedish stories?

Mainly I've been researching Sámi stuff only,

Not generally Swedish.

But I mean,

You are right in so many things,

Especially that cold landscape shaping people.

And I'm kind of a mixture because I'm like you.

I actually love to curl up under a blanket with candles and I can read lots of books.

But I'm also very not reserved.

But then again,

You know,

I'm not from here.

I'm from somewhere else,

Which we don't know,

Maybe Middle Earth,

Maybe Avalon.

There are many personas,

But I picked up some of the Swedish traits.

And yeah,

I mean,

I agree.

I think you're right about that.

It's a very northerner,

Nordic type of thing,

Generally speaking.

And yeah,

People bundle up,

Especially in the wintertime.

Oh,

I bet.

Yeah,

It's funny,

You know,

I've been having digestive issues and trying to figure out like what my body wants to eat.

And someone said,

Well,

Where is your family from?

What are the genetics?

And I said,

Well,

You know,

My father is Swedish and Norwegian.

And they said,

Oh,

Well,

What do they eat?

And I was like,

I mean,

I don't know.

I think,

You know,

Because they said,

Oh,

You probably have evolved to eat the way they ate,

But maybe two or 300 years ago.

And I think I looked it up and it was like a lot of fermented foods,

Including fish,

Which I hate with a passion.

I hate fish in general.

I just don't like the taste or the texture.

And I thought,

I am in a lot of trouble because I don't know,

What are you talking about?

Don't make me eat all this food.

I'm so sorry.

But yeah,

I had a friend who went to Iceland and he,

I think he,

Which is not Sweden,

Of course,

Nor Norway.

And he had fermented shark,

I think it was,

Or something like that.

And I thought,

Okay,

I would be one of the first people to die because I could not eat stuff like that.

So when you were researching the Sami and stuff,

I mean,

Have you spent,

I would assume,

That you've spent significant amounts of time with the population.

Did you have to get permission to write your book?

I'm so curious.

No,

I haven't.

I mean,

Because it's a fantasy book that gives you freedom,

Which is what I love about fantasy.

I suppose I was doing a lot of nonfiction writing before this book.

And I wrote lots of articles and interviews and two other books about China.

But then you're so limited by reality,

Which I don't like.

Yeah.

So it gives you the space,

But you don't have to go out there because this book is low fantasy,

Which means all the China-related stuff in the book is real and all the Scandinavia,

Sami book stuff is real.

And then I add on that fantasy.

But it gives you the freedom to not strictly follow whatever you research because that might just give you ideas.

And then you think,

Wow,

I could develop that into such and such.

So,

Yeah,

I have created freely just whenever it's facts,

They are real.

You can kind of tell,

You know,

When it's sort of magic and dragons and obviously,

But everything else is research.

So it's really interesting.

I am very interested in all the nature,

Like Native Americans and any nature people,

You know,

Are in touch with the great spirit and believe that everything has a spirit,

A rock,

Stone,

Water,

Tree.

So for me,

It was like,

Yeah,

Like I said,

Have I lived there in a past life?

I'm not sure.

But every time I read about it,

I'm like,

I just feel at home.

Like,

So.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I love fantasy.

You have to know my two go-tos for reading are sci-fi and fantasy.

Those are the two that make me so happy.

Huge fan.

In fact,

Sometimes when people suggest I read other things,

I get annoyed.

But I'm a massive fantasy fan.

Well,

You know,

It sounds like based on what you're saying,

That you chose to write this book because you wanted a greater sense of freedom around your writing.

So,

I mean,

Because it sounds like you wrote,

You've written a bunch of nonfiction.

You have these other books.

Would you say that's true,

That you wanted a place where your imagination could fly,

Where you could kind of play and create something beautiful for other people to read in the fiction arena?

Yeah,

I mean,

That's true.

But the interesting part is that this story was waiting to be written.

It just came to me.

Like,

I had not planned for this.

I was actually writing on another trilogy and had completed two books.

And,

I mean,

It's really interesting how it happened because I was working on that and it was very hard for me to switch from nonfiction to fiction and create freely because then all of a sudden there are all these demands.

You need structure.

How does this work?

Who governs this place?

Who makes up the rules?

Is there a law against that?

You know,

There was nothing to hang it on.

No structure.

So I have to make that up and I was kind of struggling.

And then my teacher,

I was living in Hong Kong.

I still live there part-time.

And she suddenly,

Out of the blue,

My main teacher,

Emailed me and said,

I'm coming to Hong Kong.

Do you want to meet for coffee?

And I'm like,

Oh,

Yes,

Hello.

So we're going there and straightforward as she is.

Most teachers can be very straightforward,

At least when they're writing.

We're talking about my trilogy and she goes,

Yeah,

Yeah,

That's good.

But,

You know,

To be totally honest,

There is not really anything special with that trilogy you're writing.

And I go,

No,

Probably not.

I'm aware of that because it's very hard to write fiction.

And then she said,

You should write.

So these are the keywords in my entire life since a few years back.

She said,

You should write something else.

And I'm like,

OK,

That's not what you want to hear when you poured years into this trilogy and you're more than halfway through.

So I'm sort of actually very shocked.

And she goes,

You have been in that world for too long.

OK,

Listen to me.

Get out.

You can go back anytime you want.

You can finish it.

But for now,

You need to move out of it.

And then I'm sitting there kind of shell shocked and she goes,

You know,

We have this old saying,

Write what you know.

And I go,

Yeah,

I know about that one.

And I just started thinking then because she put me on the spot and we're sitting in this cafe and it's like this stormy night.

It was all very dramatic.

And I'm sitting there going,

But then what do I know?

And I'm thinking,

OK,

OK,

OK.

I know China.

I know Chinese language.

I know Chinese thinking,

Culture,

Customs.

What else?

Scandinavia,

The same.

Culture,

Customs,

Language.

What else?

Anything physical.

I'm very much into sports.

So anything physical and those two.

And it was the weirdest thing.

We're sitting there and I just have this faint thing.

And I'm like,

I'm sorry,

I have to go.

She's like,

OK,

Nice meeting you.

Yeah,

So nice.

You know,

That kind of thing.

So nice.

Enjoy your green tea.

I've got to go.

And I remember in this stormy night,

It was dark and I was walking home and I was walking faster and faster and faster because I had this idea.

And I wanted to just get the first paragraph down on my laptop when I got home.

So I'm rushing home and in my head was this Sami girl.

And I was hungry,

Tired,

I'm going to shower,

I'm going to eat.

I'm just going to write one paragraph.

And I spent one hour,

I couldn't stop for one hour to just whatever came.

And I'm like,

OK,

There's a start.

I'm going to shower and eat.

So that's how it came.

Super interesting.

That's so interesting.

I am of the ilk that thinks that storms can usher things in,

That they can be these really wild,

Pivotal events that kind of clears away all the old energy and brings in,

You know,

Some energy that maybe might be a little wild,

Might be a little unformed,

But that we can,

You know,

If you have the sensitivity and the capacity to understand,

I don't know,

The energy that a storm can bring in or shift or move,

You can totally capitalize on it.

And I mean,

For me,

I'm a romantic,

So I'm listening to your story and I'm totally projecting onto you that the storm absolutely ushered something in or made space,

You know,

Because first of all,

I am a whiner.

Okay?

So if my teacher would have taken me aside and said,

Hey,

This is not,

You know,

Working,

Do something else,

Especially if I had done two books.

Oh my God,

That's so much energy and so much dedication.

And then the teacher's like,

Hey,

No,

Do something else.

I would be,

I would have actually just left and maybe cried in bed for a few days,

But it sounds like,

It sounds like this really kinetic event that happened and,

You know,

You couldn't run away.

I love running away.

And you were there,

The storm was happening and it's like this great download just happened.

You got home and it was like,

Like you weren't given a choice.

You were like a channel for a brief moment and it just like came through.

And I,

You know,

I've said this to people,

The muses,

They can be very persistent.

They can be very persnickety.

I sometimes describe my muses as a monkey on my back nagging me to death.

But I so appreciate that you,

You rode the wave,

You didn't say no,

You opened yourself to it and you became someone who,

Obviously that story wanted to be told.

Would you agree?

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

Yes.

Super,

Super important.

I just felt,

You know,

And the timing is interesting too,

Because I've been working on it and I tried to,

You know,

Publish it earlier and it just,

I like all the doors were closed.

And in hindsight,

I realized it wasn't meant to come out then.

It's meant to come out now and has to do with energies and the vibration of the earth and all these things.

But definitely,

Definitely wanting,

Waiting,

Waiting to be written.

So I think as a thing of your,

Like I would go home and cry,

I think I was too shocked what she said.

I just went,

Really?

Sort of like,

Are you really sure about this?

But I couldn't say that,

But I think I was just too shocked and that's why I didn't start bawling.

And then the fact that she planted that seed in my head,

So I didn't have time to sort of mourn that I've done all this work for these years,

Spent all that time and energy and all that.

There was like,

No,

It was like,

Yeah,

It was like the storm,

Like you said.

No,

No,

No,

No,

Don't waste your time on that.

You know,

We have work to do,

That type of thing.

So,

And then I've been on it ever since.

That's amazing.

That is amazing.

You know,

I don't know if you're familiar with Maya Daron et al.

She wrote The Divine Horseman.

She was an anthropologist that went to Haiti last century in the 40s and 50s when women didn't really do that.

She was also a documentary filmmaker and she describes,

This is what makes me okay and why I use the language of being ridden by the muses.

She really spent years investigating voodoo in Haiti and specifically when the gods come down and possess someone at the ceremony and then speak through them,

You know,

Dispensing advice,

Telling people things that they need to hear,

Telling them how to resolve conflict.

It's actually,

It is so fascinating.

And for me,

You know,

Just utterly captivating and interesting,

But the book is called The Divine Horseman because the gods literally come in and ride the person like a horse,

Talk,

Tell everybody everything they need to hear and then leave.

And the person who was ridden,

Basically,

You could say possessed,

Became the channel,

Remembers nothing of what they said.

And I feel like the muses,

When they,

You know,

I mean,

Sometimes they invite us,

Sometimes they mount us because they're like,

This story needs to be out there.

So I just love how you were open to it,

How you just,

You know,

You had an invitation,

But you also kind of were like compelled,

It sounds like,

And you just stepped up to the plate and you did it.

And now we have this incredible book,

Which is it,

Is it a standalone or they're going to- Yeah,

This is the series.

This is the first book on the Polar Saga.

So that's what I love about it.

There's so much to develop and dive deeper into.

And yeah,

And you know,

With fantasy you get,

Because it's moving in and out between realism and fantasy,

Whatever realism is,

We can discuss another time,

But what most people consider real,

It gives you,

Yeah,

Like what you said before,

That enormous freedom to create really anything you want while I still feel really grounded in it because the main protagonist is so connected to Earth Mother,

Matraka.

So then,

You know,

I'm connected to Earth Mother.

The story is connected to Earth Mother while at the same time moving in and out.

And for that matter,

Like we all say in spirituality,

What is real?

We don't know.

So,

You know,

Let's just leave everything open and each one can decide for themselves what they think is real and not real,

But yeah.

Yeah,

You brought up realism and what's real and I thought,

Ooh,

You're a mystic.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah,

Let's just say I believe in a lot of things.

Okay.

I've stopped saying that's not real because how do we know?

I get a little bit annoyed when people say,

Yeah,

But that's not real.

But I always tell them,

For example,

Back when we didn't have microscopes,

So doctors couldn't see bacteria in a microscope.

Did that mean that bacteria didn't exist?

No,

We just did not have the means to pick them up.

So how do we know it's not like that with lots of other things?

People say,

That's real,

That's not.

Yeah,

But you know,

How do you know that,

Really?

So I just prefer to keep a very,

Very open mind.

Yeah,

I think your gut and your heart will lead you and help you decide what's true for you.

Yeah,

I really think also reality is based on experience and perception and not everybody's going to have the same experience through their lives,

Whether it's their interactions with their neighbor who might be a war vet and so they hear all those stories and so those stories become very real for them because they've heard it.

Everybody has their different encounters,

Their different experiences,

And what's real for one person might not be real for someone else.

And I think we just need to develop a lot more tolerance in general with a lot of things going on in general.

But I appreciate your point of view because it's really generous and super expansive and also allows for space for people who might believe differently based on their experiences in the world.

Yeah,

Exactly.

I totally agree.

I mean,

People say ghosts are not real,

But if you saw a ghost,

Wouldn't it be real to you?

And I always kind of feel like just because you didn't see whatever it is,

A ghost,

For example,

You know,

Someone else did.

And how do you know you're right and not that person?

Let's,

You know,

It's totally up to what you experience and what you feel and how your senses are open to things and what they pick up and how you can communicate.

I mean,

I would love to be able to communicate with animals and plants,

For example.

I always talk to them,

And I don't particularly hear them back,

But I mean,

I do sense the connection.

And,

You know,

That's going to be enough for now,

I guess,

This time around.

Oh,

Yeah.

And I think it's with those conversations that you're having with the animals,

I think it's a start,

Right,

Of humans in your way reminding nature,

Communicating with nature that there are still some of us that want to have a relationship.

And,

You know,

That means when you walk into new landscapes or new vistas,

Wherever you're going,

You know,

Nature,

I think,

Can sense that you're an ally.

And I think that's really important.

It opens you up to maybe liminal experiences with animals or plants or what have you,

Because nature knows that you are invested in it.

And so,

Yeah,

That's really gorgeous.

You can talk to me about talking to plants and animals all day long.

I welcome it.

I welcome it.

As you heard,

I talked to the juniper,

And I don't know if the juniper's bored or long-suffering with my conversation,

But it's happening.

I try to make it interesting.

It's happening.

Well,

I'd love to talk about,

You know,

Ask the main question,

Which is,

I'd love for you to share a story or stories that can be more than one of something magical,

Perhaps,

Something miraculous,

Mysterious even,

Because I have had plenty of ghost stories on this podcast.

Whatever you'd like to share.

Frankly,

You've already shared a couple,

But I'd love to hear anything else you'd like to share.

It's just,

Yeah,

There are a lot of,

I don't have a major thing.

Like,

I mean,

I wish I could see all those spirits and whatnot.

I really do.

And I try.

I speak to the angels every day.

Would you please show yourselves to me?

They haven't.

But,

I mean,

I do feel them,

And I believe that so many times,

If you start to pay attention,

You do actually get so many signs.

And it comes from reading a lot of books.

Like,

I don't know if you know about Lorna Byrne,

For example.

She's a heavyweight within angels type of books.

And she teaches you how they communicate with you and how you can feel it and how things you might feel are insignificant or small,

But they are them.

Or if you believe in other beings,

That I believe you have a team of light beings on the other side that are helping you,

And they can be guides or angels or dragons or whatnot.

And once you start paying attention,

I mean,

When I'm grounded and pay attention,

You get a lot of signs.

And that's really special to me,

And everyone works different.

Some people hear them.

I usually get images in my mind,

And that can usually be like a tarot card,

For example,

And I know what that means.

Or it means usually they give me a crystal.

So that means I just know I need that crystal then.

Like,

For example,

I had this really funny thing with crystals when I was in New Zealand last.

And first of all,

I got another necklace like this.

This is amethyst,

But there was one with rose quartz.

So this was really funny because I felt super drawn to it.

It felt like Middle Earth.

Rose quartz is not my crystal.

But somehow I just had to get it.

I don't know why.

So I got two,

One amethyst and one rose quartz,

Because the urge was so strong.

The second strong urge was this one,

Which is black obsidian.

And I usually don't have black stones.

I've never had a black stone before.

And I have nothing against them,

But I never buy black stones.

But they made me.

It was so strong.

And I'm kind of like,

Yeah.

And I got these things.

And then several months later,

I was in some situation where I felt I really needed rose quartz now,

Because we are in the process of moving.

All my crystals are stored away in storage.

So I could never get to my rose quartz,

And I suddenly got all these messages and these feelings.

And then I had this,

The other one,

Which was the rose quartz bracelet.

And I'm like,

You guys knew I would need this three months from now.

And I don't have a rose quartz.

And at the time in Switzerland,

There is no crystal shop near where I live.

So I could also not easily get rose quartz.

And then a while after that,

I just felt super drawn to this ring.

And another friend who's an angel reader said,

You need protection right now from certain energies around you.

So this ring would flash in my mind.

And I usually get my messages in that in-between state,

Between awake and sleep,

When the mind is let go a bit.

And it just kept showing me this.

And whenever I had it on,

I didn't get the picture.

But every morning when it was off,

Because I took it off during the night,

I'd get the picture.

And so I really,

Really,

Really felt really good using these two crystals that I bought them three months earlier,

Not knowing why.

I don't want them.

I don't need them.

But they made me buy them.

And three months later,

I was just saying,

Thank you so much.

You know a lot more than I do.

So I'll try to listen to you from now on.

So yeah,

That's an example of what I find to be kind of small little miracles every day that helps me along on the path,

Which I enjoy.

Yeah,

I think,

You know,

A lot of us,

You know,

Even me,

I'm going to include myself in this,

Are so obsessed with the big miracles,

The big stories.

And then if you don't pay attention,

You miss the beautiful small miracles that are happening all around you,

That are making your life easier,

That are connecting you with people you might know,

That are showing you a choice that you might make an option for your life.

And that's so beautiful.

I also think it's interesting that,

You know,

We've used,

Or I have used the word allies.

And you talked about,

You know,

Talking with nature and the animals and the plants.

And I talked about the juniper,

But you're also,

You have an ally in these angels,

But you've cultivated that.

And I think it's good to know that we have options as far as,

You know,

Listeners,

You don't have to believe in angels.

You can believe in gremlins.

You can believe in whatever makes you happy,

But we do have options for maybe conversation or connection with things that we cannot see,

Because certainly I have produced so many podcast episodes and people who've had these experiences that are just not able to be described by Western science.

There is something going on out there.

And I think it would behoove us to understand that maybe open our minds a little bit and begin those conversations.

So thank you.

I,

I,

You know,

I don't have per se a,

I wouldn't like classify my muses or,

Or whatever.

I'm still trying to figure all that out,

But I absolutely think talking to angels is really important because,

You know,

It doesn't hurt.

And the more allies we have,

I think the more successful and,

And,

And then,

And the universe knows that you're invested,

Right?

That you're invested in co-creating.

And I think that's the most important thing.

Well,

I would love as we close out the podcast,

I would love for you to share maybe a travel story in Hong Kong.

I have never been there.

I've seen pictures.

It looks like,

Oh my goodness,

Such a gorgeous city.

So dynamic.

I'm a foodie.

So of course I think food,

Amazing food and just the,

The energy,

It just looks so kinetic.

So I'd love for you to share a story or two about Hong Kong.

Oh,

Okay.

There's so many.

I yeah,

You're right.

It's an amazing place.

It's,

I have not to date found anything that matches Hong Kong because you have this unique mixture of not only East meets West,

But of mega city with,

You know,

All the latest like,

Or,

Or whatever you want.

Restaurants,

Clubs,

Super flashy things,

All those shops and all that.

You also have a huge spiritual scene.

You have nature right around the corner.

It's like,

For example,

A huge trail running Mecca.

I do trail running and we used to do trail races or trail races every weekend in the season.

So you can literally be in the city and go to whatever Gucci shops or whatever you like.

You have all the alternative.

I go only to alternative doctors.

You have all the other doctors as well.

You have everything.

You have everything of everything.

And it's very social.

If you want to be the kind of the parties,

There's that if you want to be the spiritual person who goes to cure them,

There's that.

And at the same time,

If you're the nature person,

You just hike up the mountain down the other side and you have dirt trails,

Real dirt trails.

That's where we go running on dirt trails in the jungle.

If you want,

You can go canoeing.

You can go on a boat.

So all of that is concentrated and that's the whole thing.

It's a 7 million people city,

But because central with the area that's called central is very,

Because there are mountains.

So,

You know,

By the topography,

That's the nature of the city,

Which means that in that part,

You walk everywhere.

So it makes you feel like you're a little bit in a smaller town,

Which is after Beijing and Shanghai,

Which are vast cities.

It was super nice to move to Hong Kong and just feel like,

You know,

After the gym,

I walked to my naturopath after him.

I walked to the market after that.

So,

And you,

And you run into people,

You get to know people and,

And at the same time you can go trail running in the jungle.

It's,

It's really hard to match that.

And that's why people who move there stay for so long because after you're going to relocate from that,

It's super hard.

It's super hard.

Nothing matches that.

And I mean,

It's anything from,

I mean,

It's wild.

You've got poisonous snakes also,

Pythons and cobras and lovely little things like that.

And actually I had a snake once in my kitchen,

But that was in Shanghai.

And that's a different story,

But it was pretty freaky.

But yeah.

And then Hong Kong is also very,

I mean,

They have lots of little temples and you could go out on the islands and there are like old fishing villages and stuff like that.

So it's,

It's hard to pick a specific story because it's just such a story in itself by that magical mixture of everything.

And you have the freedom.

If you are a work hard,

Play hard person,

You hang out there.

If you're the nature person,

You hang out there and,

And we still yet all coexist.

So it's,

It's an amazing place.

Some people find the vibe a little bit too intense,

But then after COVID,

You know,

It kind of changed.

Some people moved,

A lot of people moved.

So it's a little bit calmer now,

Which I prefer because I like calm and less people.

But I mean,

I strongly advise you to go.

I'll give you some great tips if you go.

Deal.

It's,

It just,

Yeah,

It's,

You know,

Of course I've only seen pictures and videos at this point,

But I'm really drawn to the different ways that cities especially can be beautiful.

And there's something really beautiful about Hong Kong,

You know,

Despite the,

How busy it is.

And despite,

You know,

All the tech and the gadgets and all of that,

There's something there that is just captivating and it could be the energy of the city possibly,

But yeah,

I've always felt drawn to experiencing that.

So someday I hope.

You must.

Awesome.

Yeah.

I actually,

You know,

I'm such a foodie and I want to ask you what your favorite dish was there.

Can I ask you?

Yeah,

Sure.

It's a little bit hard because I'm vegan.

Okay.

I was not when we lived in China,

Thank God,

Because that would have been very,

I was not even vegetarian there,

Which was lucky because it's very hard if you don't eat any meat.

Hong Kong is slightly better,

But I mean,

Noodles basically,

Unless you're a gluten-free and kind of egg-free,

Which I was.

So it was for some years,

I only ate at home because of my special diet,

But there's lots of restaurants.

There's a very vivid restaurant scene.

It changes a lot.

And I mean,

They have anything from top.

This is what I like.

They have top-notch restaurants down to just like a super simple hole in the wall where you can get your dumplings or some noodles that are perfectly fine.

I mean,

It's fun to go to those places.

We'd love to go to those places like all the time.

So that's,

That's a huge thing with Hong Kong still.

I hope they don't change it too much,

But the fact that you have like all these super advanced,

Whatever people dressed in the most expensive clothes and,

And right next to him,

There's this little old lady,

You know,

Pushing her card or somebody selling snake meat in a snake shop or something like that.

So I love that.

I love that crazy mix.

And I think most people in Hong Kong do,

And that's why they don't want to leave.

They don't want to leave.

Oh my God.

I'm just now thinking of the snake in your kitchen in Shanghai and wondering if I just,

I don't know what kind of snake it was.

I mean,

I like snakes as long as they're like,

Not too close to me.

And I think they're really beautiful,

But I also think they're so mysterious and just,

I don't know,

A repository for human evolution or something.

I don't know.

I have a really mystical connection to snakes.

They mean transformation and evolution and a lot of early indigenous culture,

But finding one in my kitchen,

I think I might start weeping or screaming and I just don't know how I would have handled that.

Yeah.

I mean,

It's,

It's,

That's the worst,

But it's also pretty bad running into them in the forest when you go running.

I've done that so many times and it makes you jump high and run fast.

Okay.

What?

And then you still went back and went trail running.

I just,

Oh my God.

You're brave.

Well,

You have,

I mean,

Out of all the times you go trail running,

You wouldn't say it's like often,

But if you look at all the times you've run into a snake,

It's still like quite a lot.

But then if you see a bigger one,

You kind of have this very naive thinking of,

I'm not going to do that path,

You know,

As if this,

As if the snake would stay in that area.

I,

I,

I had this,

I saw a really,

I think it was a Python and it was like two meters long and that's the biggest one I ever saw.

And I did not take that route again.

And then I kept reminding myself that snake could be anywhere,

But in my mind,

You know,

It was connected to that route.

So I'm like,

Yeah.

Oh,

Well.

And that's it.

That's a wrap on my conversation with Katerina.

You know,

I am a hundred percent all for traveling between worlds,

You know,

Whether it's in your imagination or has Katerina has done between Hong Kong,

Sweden,

China,

And all the other glorious places she's chosen to visit.

I know that encounter with those that I'm unfamiliar with makes me a better person and helps me to understand the world.

And you know,

I'm always hustling for ratings and reviews.

I love ratings and reviews.

So if you listen to the podcast,

Please do consider smashing the button to give me a rating or writing a little review.

Thank you for listening.

And here's my one request.

Be like Katerina dream between the worlds.

I mean,

She doesn't limit herself.

She knows that the outward statement on how different we all are,

How we don't really go together,

How some people just can't be understood is really a fiction.

And so she immerses herself in worlds and places that she can only begin to understand,

But then living there,

It breeds intimacy.

It breeds friendship.

It breeds,

You know,

Maybe relationships with snakes that might get a little too close.

But yeah,

She's taken the chance on the world.

And now the world is taking a chance on her.

So be brave and go out there and meet people that you don't know.

Welcome the stranger embrace those who are different from you.

I think we need a lot more tolerance in this world and a lot more understanding that this world would be ever so boring if everyone was the same.

So embrace difference,

Explore the world and be brave.

My dears,

Because that great big world out there,

It is just waiting for you to take that very first step.