Interview: Angela Petrilli ~ The Ghost Inside The Frame

Angela tells the story of her beloved best friend, artist Jen Pagliaro...and how their collaboration was set to take them to stardom. Then, Jen got diagnosed with breast cancer, and everything changed...and Angela had to find her way to wholeness on her own.

Transcript

Hey,

Hey,

Everyone,

And welcome back to another episode of the podcast.

This time,

I'm introducing you to Angela Petrilli,

And it's yet another human being where when we got on the Zoom call and we began talking,

I just wished that she and I could talk for hours and hours and hours.

She's absolutely enchanting.

She's hilarious.

She has a great sense of humor.

And she has some really seriously powerful things to say.

Now,

I don't want to ruin her miracle moment,

But suffice it to say that when she got on the call,

I let her know that one of the songs that she has up online,

I was listening through her catalog and Ghost Inside a Frame absolutely gobsmacked me.

And then later on in the conversation,

That song was part of her miracle.

So everything kind of dovetailed really beautifully when we began talking,

And we kind of were on the same wavelength.

And I really love that.

Now,

In 2019,

Angela was one half of Los Angeles Americana duo Roses and Cigarettes,

Along with her bandmate,

Songwriting partner and best friend,

Jenny Pagliaro.

They'd already generated a ton of buzz on the L.

A.

Scene and opened for some pretty fabulous people.

And honestly,

Roses and Cigarettes were poised for a breakthrough.

They had a tour in the works.

And then on March 25th of that year,

Rolling Stone named Roses and Cigarettes' new single Fast As I Can,

One of its 10 best country songs of the week.

But then fate intervened.

And I'll let Angela tell you about that.

Sometimes life ends up taking us in directions that we don't expect.

But I'll let Angela tell you her story,

Because truly,

She's an incredible speaker and has a really astounding tale to tell.

So without further ado,

Here's my conversation with Angela Petrilli.

I was talking with my mom soon after Jenny had died,

And my mom said,

You know,

What's really strange is when you look at pictures of someone who's died and they will always stay the same and you are the one that changes,

But they are stuck.

And I'm like,

Oh,

You know,

The creative in me is like,

That's a good idea for a song.

I need to remember that.

I remember writing it in my little like red notebook where I keep all my like lyric ideas and stuff.

Well,

The first question I always ask everybody is,

How do you self describe if you had to,

You know,

We know you appear on stage a lot,

But if you had to get on the stage at a conference,

Let's say,

And introduce yourself or you're at a party and you have to introduce yourself,

How would you do that?

Oh,

How would I introduce myself?

How would I self describe?

That's such a great question.

I would say I'm a good listener.

I'm very proud of my listening skills.

I would say I'm a good listener,

Obviously,

Because I have to for my job.

What do I do?

You have to be a good listener.

I yeah,

I'm a good listener.

I'm a student of life.

Yeah,

I'm a student,

Perpetual student.

That's how I would introduce myself.

Because so many things fall into that.

So I would say,

Yeah,

Hi,

I'm Angela and I'm a perpetual student.

Well,

Yes.

And I think,

You know,

I'm always telling people that I have an endless well of curiosity and mostly I don't get into trouble with that.

Sometimes I do.

But I love to learn about the world.

And I think along with that goes listening.

You have to be a deep listener.

Now,

Are you saying that you're a good listener because when you're creating your music,

You have to be,

You know,

On point with that,

Listening to the melody or the the idea that's in your mind that's coming out or wants to come out?

I think it's both of those things,

Definitely.

But even in conversation,

Like I just I find people so interesting,

You know,

So I too like like to know people's stories.

And,

You know,

What are things that really inspire you and keep you curious and life and you know,

What are things you love to do?

What are things that,

You know,

Right in your day?

I like I like those kind of conversations.

It's like,

What's it you know,

Like what's a song that really like gets you going?

You know,

I like knowing that about people like stuff like that.

I think it's really cool.

But yeah,

With music,

Too.

I mean,

It's it's always what's going to best serve the song.

I know that's the perspective that I always come from when I create and the best idea,

You know,

Is what's going to is what's going to best serve if a song doesn't need a guitar solo,

I think it shouldn't get one,

You know,

Even as a guitar player,

That may be kind of a strange thing to say,

But it's true.

The song will let you know what it needs and you need to be present and give it space to tell you what it needs.

Yeah,

I'm hoping at some point you're going to tell me eventually you'll come through Santa Fe.

Oh,

My gosh,

You're kidding.

I was literally just there.

What?

I was lit.

I was there and I was there in February.

Reason why is that I had never been me and some friends from high school.

We were like,

God,

Let's go somewhere.

You know,

Let's do like a weekend trip and let's all pick a place we'd never been.

And Santa Fe has been like at the top of my list.

So,

Yeah,

I was there in February.

I loved it.

It was great.

I had such a good time.

It's so beautiful there.

It is really beautiful.

Well,

Now I know someone who lives there.

This is great.

Yes.

Well,

You know,

And maybe I don't know.

Do you you obviously tour?

I mean,

Yes,

No,

You do.

Sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just I don't know if you ever,

You know,

Create a tour for something.

Think about Santa Fe,

Because we have Meow Wolf,

Which has a weird and strange stage,

You know.

It's kind of funkalicious.

But then they have amazing,

You know,

In the summer in the rail yard,

Outdoor concerts curated by the Lenzek and stuff.

It's a great.

So just put it in the back of your mind to think about.

OK,

We'll have to chat about this after this deal.

Yeah,

I would.

I so love like the energy there.

And the food is incredible.

My God.

Oh,

So I just had like some of the best food.

It was so good.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Meow Wolf.

I went in completely blind.

I wouldn't.

I had no idea what it was.

I went in completely blind because I kept seeing it on lists.

I could like because I'm so into art and all of that.

And like,

Oh,

Like an art installation with different artists.

That seems kind of cool.

OK,

Totally did not for like the first half hour.

I'm like,

What is this?

This is so cool.

Yeah.

Loved it.

OK,

Let me ask you,

Did you go through the fridge?

I did go through the fridge.

Yeah,

It was a trip.

What I'm bummed about is that I didn't know that the washing machine was a slide until after I left.

Yeah,

I was kind of bummed about that.

I would have liked to have done that.

Well,

It is it is pretty fabulous.

So,

Yes.

OK,

We'll talk afterwards.

But I wanted to ask you when you were a kid,

Like,

Did you sense this about yourself that you were endlessly curious?

Is that what kind of propelled you into music?

Like,

How young did you start?

Did you like,

I don't know,

See someone playing the guitar or even playing another instrument?

And you thought,

Oh,

My gosh,

That's what I want to do.

I know those are a lot of questions.

I'll try to do both of them.

I'll try to do as many as I can.

I always knew I was musical.

I knew from very young age,

Like four years old,

I remember listening to music with my mom and dad and just knowing I would be musical.

It was always encouraged,

Whether it was art and drawing or painting or picking up an instrument,

Things like that.

Just that creative energy was always just so,

So welcomed and encouraged.

In our house,

Which was just such a gift.

My mom plays a little guitar.

So I remember being really little and watching her play and just knowing I could do that.

Just like breathing.

It was just a very like,

Oh,

Yeah,

Like I could tie my shoes and I can also do that.

And I wasn't until I was about eight years old and asked for a guitar.

And and yeah,

I just I loved it.

I loved it.

I pick I would pick it up.

My parents say they knew I was into it when they would hear me every morning,

Like picking up my guitar before I went to school.

So,

Yeah,

Yeah,

That that's what,

You know,

Kicked things off and then got lessons right away.

They saw I really liked it and,

You know,

Just really flourished with it.

And yeah,

Now we're here.

So.

And here we are,

Which is pretty fabulous place,

I think.

I mean,

I was telling you before we started the interview that one of your songs just totally hit for me today.

How would you describe the music that you create?

Hmm.

First and foremost,

I create it for myself.

I create it for myself.

I don't come from a place of,

Oh,

This will be on the radio.

I don't do that.

I like to write music that I know I would like to listen to.

And what's most authentic to me,

I try not to self edit too much.

If it is if it is something where I'm getting a very like like a passionate result,

I'm like,

I'm going to keep following this.

Like there's something here I need to follow through.

I write the music for me and it is such a joy.

Like if other people like it,

That's so great.

But I really come from that perspective.

I'm like,

This is my creative outlet.

And I'm doing this for me because this brings me joy.

And this is what I'm hearing in my head and what I'm feeling in my hands to play and create when I when I pick up the instrument.

I would say,

You know,

I'm just I'm inspired by so many different artists,

You know,

From Led Zeppelin to Pink Floyd to,

You know,

Patti Griffin to Ray LaMontagne.

I just I'm such a fan of music and the craft of it.

And,

You know,

From things to,

You know,

Really heavy rock and roll to jazz to singer songwriters,

I love all of that stuff and just try to take little things.

And I guess through osmosis and through this inspiration and,

You know,

Tipping the hat to the people who've inspired me,

I try to come up with something,

I guess,

If we had to put labels on it,

Kind of a rock,

Blues,

Americana kind of thing.

Kind of,

I guess.

I don't know.

I don't really think about like the labels of it.

It's strange.

It's just like,

Oh,

This is what I like.

And,

You know,

This is what comes out.

And me and the guys and the players were just such a great,

Like cohesive unit.

And those guys inspire me to be a better musician every day.

And it's just it's fun to see,

You know,

How songs evolve with those five different voices.

So it's cool.

It's still inspiring to me every day.

Yeah.

Oh,

My gosh.

I just have to tell you that I have like a pathological fear of being on stage.

Everyone who listens to the podcast knows this because I talk about it all the time.

And I just look at you and look at what you're doing.

And I just OK,

I need to know how you got to where you are today.

And the first time you had to get on stage,

Were you terrified?

Oh,

OK.

So I started like playing out.

I guess like in front of people when I was about 10.

Wow.

Was I nervous?

I mean,

I would think so.

I would think I would be nervous.

Sure.

Yeah.

And there are like certain gigs where you get like little butterflies.

My big thing is I don't get nervous because I'm afraid of being in front of people.

I just really want to do a good job.

I want to do my best.

That is always my thing.

So if I get like kind of those jitters.

I know it comes from.

I just want to do my best.

I just want to do my best.

But then I get up there and then the jitters go away.

And it's like,

All right,

Let's do this.

You know,

It takes time and that confidence.

And I tell all of my students this,

Too.

The more you prepare,

The more you have fun.

So when you're not,

You know,

You got a gig coming up,

It's like,

All right,

Like get yourself in a really good space.

I'm a big fan of meditation.

I say this a lot.

I think that really helps keep you grounded and gets all of the kind of the jittery,

Maybe negative self-talk out.

I,

You know,

I tell myself like,

All right,

What are the things I have control over?

The things that I don't,

You know,

It's like,

OK,

I have control over how much I prepare for this show or I have the control over making sure,

You know,

My gear works before I play.

Because that is a huge bummer is when your gear doesn't work.

That makes me I don't I don't like that feeling.

So I make sure that everything works.

But there's other things that's like,

Hey,

You know,

Maybe the sound system isn't going to be super great.

Is that in your control?

No.

So you just got to let it go.

You know,

So it's it's for me,

That's the big thing when I'm on stage.

It's like,

OK,

What am I in control over and what am I not in control over?

And I have a lot of reminders like on my pedal board,

Like I have a deep breath.

I have that on my pedals when I am looking down.

I see that.

So it's deep breaths,

Like remember to breathe.

Oh,

Yeah,

I got to breathe that,

You know,

And it just keeps you centered.

That's my thing.

I always look to keep myself centered.

And it's it's a practice.

You know,

I'm still I'm still getting better at it.

I'm still,

You know,

A student of it,

But it's a practice.

OK,

How old were you when you first realized you were a badass?

Oh,

I don't know.

I'm so I'm still working on it.

I'm still my awkward phase.

Still my awkward phase.

OK,

We're getting there.

I don't know.

It's just I just love what I do.

And it's it just brings me so much joy,

You know?

So I don't know.

I don't really consider myself a badass.

Just consider myself,

You know,

Someone who loves to play music.

Right.

I know.

But you know what?

Putting yourself out there,

Putting what you create out there.

There are a lot of people who a,

You know,

Never even get to the point.

Like they have an idea.

They never even start because they're afraid of putting themselves out there.

Then you have people who start something,

Which is the majority of the people,

And they don't finish it.

You know,

They just don't see it through.

And then there are people like you who finish.

They start and they finish.

But over and over and over again,

Because you have many songs.

So,

I mean,

That takes quite a commitment,

Passion,

You know,

Some intensity because you're like,

I'm going to get this done.

I'm driven.

And so,

I mean,

Those people are badasses,

The ones that like have a vision and then they see them through and get the stuff done.

And I just always,

You know,

Try to remind people that if you can dream about it,

You can do it.

You just have to get your butt off off the couch.

Right now,

I'm living in a place I'm house sitting for four months.

No Wi-Fi,

No cell phone service.

And the guy who lives in the casita that's near me said,

You know,

I can come.

Yesterday,

He said,

I can come and put on the antenna so you can have Wi-Fi.

And I was like,

Are you kidding?

I'm actually reading a book these days.

Like otherwise,

I'd just be watching something on my computer.

I'm getting something done.

So,

Yes,

I have big plans for this next four months.

But as a fellow,

Like creator and artist,

I want to honor you for actually starting and then finishing things,

But then putting yourself out there,

You know?

Yeah,

It's yeah.

Social media can be such a blessing.

And then like,

You know,

Then there's the whole other side of it.

Try to ignore the other side of it.

I don't read comments because I feel like they can absolutely ruin your day.

So I just don't.

Yeah,

I just.

You got to you got to put yourself out there to see,

Like,

I don't know,

To me,

It's just like,

Here's the art and here's my perspective on how I see things and through,

You know,

And it's expressed through my music and I don't expect everyone to like it.

That's OK.

We you know,

It's like I don't like every genre of music and that's fine.

And no one does,

You know,

So it's it's it's like it's OK if they're haters,

It's OK.

I feel like you're kind of doing something right.

If if folks maybe say things that are hurtful,

I'd like to think that,

OK,

We're mirroring something in them that they wish they could do.

And,

You know,

You just got to send them light and.

Yeah,

That's that's it.

And again,

And that goes that's also in the category of like that's out of my control.

You know,

Once it's out there and the way I look at the music,

Once it's out there and released,

It's not mine anymore.

You know,

Belongs to everyone else.

I wrote it and I was a conduit of it.

But it's it's released and it's,

You know,

It's for everyone to enjoy.

So everyone or,

You know,

The majority of people,

You know,

Maybe there's some people don't like it,

And that's OK.

You know,

But to me,

It's.

I don't know,

It's kind of part of the process,

You got to put yourself out there,

It's it's it's that's the that's the part,

I guess,

That is scary.

But,

You know,

Life is life begins outside of the comfort zone.

I forget where I read this,

But it is just so,

So true.

It's where life begins.

So you have to step out of that.

And,

You know,

For years,

I didn't sing lead at all.

I was absolutely terrified of it.

I was absolutely terrified.

And then,

You know,

I was like one day,

I'm like,

Like,

Why?

Why does this why does this make you so scared?

And I didn't have a reason.

I'm like,

Well,

I guess you got to start doing it now.

You know,

I didn't have a reason.

I didn't have a reason.

So,

Yeah,

And getting outside of my comfort zone and doing that has really led to some beautiful things like I could have never expected.

So I'm glad I took that risk because you just never know what's on the other side of that.

You just got to do it.

I do have to tell you that,

You know,

After I lived overseas,

When we came back to the States,

We lived outside of Chicago.

And maybe because of proximity to Chicago,

I have a huge I'm like a blues fan.

I love the blues so much.

Oh,

My God.

I just but I also love folk music.

I love,

You know,

A lot of genres of music that aren't heavily produced,

That are kind of simple,

I guess you could say.

And so when you said rock blues,

I was like,

Yes,

OK.

It's fun stuff.

I love it because it's so the blues is something is I feel like it's an emotion we've we all have.

You know,

And it's a beautiful genre because all of us can.

Yeah,

I felt like that before.

Yeah,

I've wanted to say that before.

Oh,

Yeah.

I've walked in those shoes before.

It's a cool it's it's a beautiful genre.

I absolutely I just I love it.

I love it.

I love that you love it.

Well,

You know,

The second question I always ask,

Even though I've asked you 10,

000 questions already is did you grow up in a religious household?

And,

You know,

If so,

Did that,

You know,

That maybe that connection to the divine or spirit or whatever you call it,

Did it evolve over time to where you are today?

And how would you define that today?

Hmm.

I didn't.

We weren't religious,

Like going to church every Sunday.

We weren't like that.

So I was I was like baptized,

Like Roman Catholic.

And and,

You know,

First communion,

The whole thing confirmed the whole thing.

What we our house,

How we were is,

You know,

God,

The universe,

Right?

That higher being is everywhere.

It's not just in four walls and you go every Sunday and you act good for a couple hours and then you leave.

And then,

You know,

You have like crazy road rage or whatever.

My yeah,

My my mom,

My mom in particular,

It's it's and my dad,

Too.

It was just treat people the way you want to be treated.

And that was really the big thing in our house was just treat others the way you want to be treated.

And,

You know,

If people,

Especially as a kid,

Oh,

My gosh,

Like I was pretty good when I was younger in school.

And I just remember my mom is like,

Listen,

You know.

It's it's hard and it's not fair,

But you don't know what other people are going through and you haven't walked in their shoes.

That was always when I would get upset.

You know,

My parents and like especially my mom would just,

You know,

Bring me down.

It's like you don't know.

You don't know what's going on.

So you just you know,

You just need to continue to be a good person.

And,

You know,

And in the words of Ted Lasso,

You know,

Doing the right things,

Never the wrong thing.

So I love it so simple.

And you're like,

Yeah,

It's totally it.

But yeah,

It's it's you know,

We went to I guess we went to church on the big holidays if we,

You know,

Christmas and Easter.

We were those we were those kind of folks.

But yeah,

And I went to Catholic school,

Too,

As a kid through through elementary school and then through high school as well.

I went to I went to a Catholic school and.

Yeah,

Again,

Just that over that that's just all encompassing of just treat others the way you want to be treated,

Just be a good human.

Yeah,

Just be a good human.

I really it's it's really that simple.

It's really that simple.

Just be a good person.

Yeah,

Can I ask you now your last name?

I might be taking a leap here,

But it sounds a little Italian.

It's it's very much so.

Yes,

I'm Italian on both sides.

My mom and my dad.

Oh,

Really?

Yes.

Oh,

Wow.

Yeah.

OK,

So because you you're I was like,

I think she might be Italian.

And then you said Roman Catholic.

And of course,

I think many people know that Italians are they love the Roman Catholic Church.

I mean,

Italy,

Rome.

Yeah,

The papacy.

It's very it's like a thing.

And so both your parents were Catholic,

I'm guessing.

Yes.

Yes.

OK.

And my my grandparents are from Italy weren't,

You know,

They weren't the most religious people.

They weren't folks.

Yeah,

Yeah.

My grandma.

Yeah,

It's it's funny.

Like I talked to other friends of mine who were Italian as well.

And,

You know,

It's like,

Oh,

Yeah,

No,

I don't want to church every Sunday.

I'm like,

I don't really do that.

But it was still we were encouraged to be good people just because,

You know,

We didn't go to church,

Didn't mean we were bad people.

You know,

That was never that was never a thing.

We went to the high holidays.

You know,

We went to,

You know,

Catholic school and learned about all that stuff.

It's funny,

Like whenever Jeopardy's on,

You know,

And it's like the Saints patron saints,

I always get them all right.

You learn it in school,

I guess.

I don't know what it sticks somewhere in some part of the brain.

But yeah,

The the the over and the all encompassing thing,

You know,

With our family,

It's,

You know,

Just to to be kind and and as Italians,

We show our love and our kindness through food.

So there is always room on the table for one more.

Always to this day,

Always.

And it's still my greatest fear in life.

I still even have bad dreams about this where I have a dinner party and I don't have enough food.

To me,

That is just like the worst thing.

And in the world still to me,

That would be a nightmare.

Yeah.

So it's it's we,

You know,

We we show our love.

And,

You know,

In many ways,

Making people feel welcomed.

That was always so important in our family because we would always have visitors and family from from Italy and everywhere,

Like all the time and,

You know,

Making people feel at home and feel special.

And,

You know,

Most importantly,

Be fed.

So I love my non-assessful up to here.

I love it.

So let me ask you,

Did you make your own pasta?

Oh,

Yeah.

It's not hard.

It's really not hard.

It's not hard.

OK,

Well,

You can totally do it.

It's really hard.

Yeah.

Dough like making your own bread is not hard.

I think a lot of people realize this during COVID,

Too.

Like,

It's really not that difficult.

You know,

You just need time.

You need time to let the yeast and like the flour and the water do their thing.

And you're you're good.

But yeah,

Making your own pasta,

It's it's it's insanely easy to do.

So I'm you know,

I wanted to ask two questions because we were talking about,

You know,

Your mother played a little guitar and you saw that when you were a kid,

Were your grandparents musical as well?

Like,

Is this a genetic thing?

So my my great grandfather on my my mom's side,

He played everything.

He wrote music.

Yeah,

He played piano.

He played cello.

He like built a violin.

He we and we recently found this is a stack of music he wrote like an or like an orchestral piece.

And it's all in his writing.

So I need to figure out like how to put this to music because I would love for my Nana to hear this because she's in her 80s now.

So but she remembers like little little motifs of things that you would play on the piano when she was a kid.

So I guess it is.

Yeah,

It is in the blood a bit.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow.

That he he sounds like a polymath.

You know,

Someone who is incredibly good at lots of different things.

Also,

You know,

Just like there are people who can pick up 14 languages and you're like,

How is that even possible?

Apparently there are people who can pick up many different instruments.

I am not one of those people at all.

You know,

Was your I just want to ask,

And this might be a generalization,

But was your grandmother an incredible chef?

Like,

Did she pass down her recipes to you?

She is still here.

She just turned 89.

She is still she is still with us.

Yes.

Very much so.

Both of my Nana's are still here.

Yeah.

Some some fantastic,

You know,

Even some regional dishes that are really cool that I've never seen anywhere else.

Like,

Hey,

Like,

How do you do that and how do you make this?

I.

I make sure to,

You know,

Go over there and film her,

Even though like I know like I'll know how to make gnocchi already.

Wait,

Nana,

Can you show me how to do this again?

Like,

How do you what do you do?

Like,

Do you put eggs in this?

Do you put cheese in that?

You know,

And I'll ask all those questions and stuff and just sit with her.

And and yeah,

It's really special.

It's really special to have those videos.

And oh,

Yeah.

Yeah.

OK,

I have to tell you,

Gnocchi are like I think they're like dessert.

I consider them a dessert because they're so delicious.

And when I eat them,

I feel guilty because there's they're like little pillows of perfection.

I don't whoever invented gnocchi should have won some,

You know,

Worldwide prize.

Yeah,

It's it's it's one of my favorite things in the world,

Too.

They're so delicious and so easy to make.

Like if you actually so if you haven't made pasta before and you want to start like making gnocchi is a really,

Really good place to start.

OK.

Yeah,

It's flour.

It's some potatoes.

Yeah,

It is not.

You could totally do it.

OK.

I mean,

Yeah,

I I saw a recipe for interestingly enough,

Sweet potato gnocchi.

And I hadn't even thought about that before.

But I thought that's so interesting.

I mean,

I don't know.

I love to cook.

I love to cook so much.

So I'm always,

Again,

Wanting to learn how to do things.

I'm endlessly curious about recipes,

About handing down recipes.

So with this,

You know,

The regional dishes,

What is your favorite that she has made?

So polenta,

I know,

Is like a big right now.

It's all bougie.

You know,

It's a very simple.

It's a very simple dish.

When I was a kid,

I didn't like it so much.

But learning about it through her,

Like she was,

You know,

She was the baby of the family.

And,

You know,

In World War two in Italy,

It's,

You know,

Sometimes it was polenta for many,

Many,

Many days.

And that was it.

You did not have a protein.

You had that.

She puts beans and cabbage in hers and it melts in.

At least the cabbage does.

So it brings the sweetness.

Yeah.

I've never seen that anywhere else.

So I hope not.

I hope you're not mad at me for telling everyone this.

So so so,

Yeah,

She puts cabbage and it melts and it gets really,

Really sweet.

And then she throws beans in there,

Too,

Because,

You know,

There wasn't a lot of meat back in those days.

So that was your that was your protein.

And,

You know,

What we'll do is she'll make a red sauce that goes on top of it.

So you make these little divots.

You pour the polenta into a plate.

You let it kind of say you're just laughing.

I know it's really delicious.

You,

You know,

You put it on a plate to like solidify a little bit and then you make these little divots and you put the sauce on it.

She makes some rapini or broccoli wrap and a white like pork sauce thing.

And I don't like pork and it's delicious.

Yeah.

And it's and she'll,

You know,

Kind of tell stories.

You kind of have to get it out of her a little bit.

But,

Yeah,

When I was younger and I did this and this and this when she starts talking,

Because if I try to put a camera in front of her and ask her about her life,

She gets she doesn't she doesn't like it.

But,

You know,

We talk about food and oh,

Yeah,

When I was younger,

I used to milk the goats and then make cheese and then,

You know,

Get the donkey and bring the cheese and bring it down to the town to sell the cheese.

Like,

Oh my God,

I go to the store to get my cheese,

You know,

And my Nana did this.

So and it's really special to whenever we go to Italy,

Like I get to see those places.

She's like,

Yeah,

This is the road that I took.

And here's where I was born.

And here's where I went to school.

And I still have a lot of family there.

So when we go,

It's just it's so beautiful and so precious to me.

I can just kind of tear up now thinking about it.

It's just such a special thing to see where you come from.

And then to see like those recipes being made by my family there.

It's yeah,

It's a beautiful thing.

And they have a restaurant there.

So before,

You know,

Everyone starts working,

We do family meal and it's a big,

Long table.

And,

You know,

It's like,

Okay,

Yeah,

I went and picked mushrooms with my Nana.

So there's some funghi porcini on the on the table that we picked today,

You know,

And it's being it's either it's kind of roasted or,

You know,

Cooked in like butter,

Which is delicious there.

I feel like all the dairy in Europe is like way better than the dairy here.

Anyway,

So and you know,

And then we have some on pizza.

Yeah,

It's and I make sure to always talk with my cousins like,

Hey,

So how did you make this and this and this?

I always like to ask because they have like this beautiful kitchen.

That is just awesome.

My God,

So awesome.

But yeah,

I like to,

You know,

Like to sit and chat and like,

Okay,

How do you do this?

And how do you do that?

That's fine.

Yeah,

I mean,

Those stories are precious.

And good for you for recording them.

And maybe,

You know,

Taking videos of your grandma telling stories do because she is the one that knows those stories.

And we're losing that knowledge.

Losing,

You know,

And you and I both talked,

We love people's stories.

So here you are getting to know her in a deeper way,

In a way that's really beautiful.

I'm glad you brought up Italy because I want to ask you something.

So I read on your website that you took some time off and you traveled all over the world and you went to Italy.

But I was reading it and it said that you spent a lot of time at sea.

And I was like,

What does that mean?

So I was like,

I don't know about that.

Really?

Oh,

It says it says you.

What does it say?

Okay,

Well,

My press release wrong.

Well,

I was first of all,

You have to know why I kind of like is because being on the ocean makes me want to throw up all the time.

Yeah,

That's so that's why I'm like,

So it says along the way,

She spent a lot of time on the ocean.

And so I was like,

Oh,

My God,

Was she in a sailboat?

Was she on a yacht?

Was she on a cruise ship?

Like,

How was she on the ocean?

So how did she not throw up all the time?

One,

If I was on a sailboat,

Which I do not like open water.

So that is like a hard pass for me.

That is not that is not fun for me.

I know it's fun for many people.

I went whale watching a couple years ago.

And I could still see the land.

Oh,

My God,

There's like these 10 and 12 foot wakes.

I was so miserable.

And we didn't see a day we didn't see a whale at all.

We didn't see anything.

We didn't see dolphins.

We didn't see we didn't see.

I was like,

I'm never doing this again.

Oh,

My gosh,

I couldn't wait to get off that boat.

And I'm like,

I need a margarita like right now.

Yeah,

I'm sure like maybe I just didn't do it the right way.

I'm not ready to try again,

Though.

I'm going to be totally honest.

I'm just not ready.

As far as like time on the ocean,

I would say.

All the places I went,

I got to see the ocean like I was in northern France and saw the ocean.

I was Italy,

Saw the ocean.

I was in Australia and saw the ocean.

That's it.

OK,

Yeah,

I was not about I was not about I'm going to I'm going to X that right now.

Yeah,

OK,

Not for me.

Yeah.

Like I said,

It captured me and I was like,

Oh,

My God,

She must have a stouter stomach than I do because I could I could not do that.

Yeah,

I definitely do not like that's not I think it's so wonderful people like who love to do that.

Like I really like running water.

Oh,

That's actually really funny.

Where were you in northern France?

I was in Normandy because I've always wanted to go.

OK,

I've always wanted to go.

And it was really moving because you hear about,

You know,

Just the incredible things that that happened there during World War Two.

And I'm such a history buff,

Too.

So I'm like,

If we're going to be in France,

Like I would love to see that,

You know,

Because we you know,

Like Paris is so wonderful.

And I just absolutely love it there.

It's so cool.

And but I wanted to see something else that maybe not everyone sees.

And just as a as a huge history buff and especially with World War Two,

I just find that time in history so interesting.

It was really moving.

It was very moving to go there.

It was very moving to see Omaha Beach with people surfing and swimming and on the beach.

It was really strange.

And we had a tour guide.

And she said,

Like,

How do you feel about this?

I'm like,

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I thought they would just leave it,

You know.

And and I was there during the 75th anniversary of D-Day.

And,

You know,

They asked some of the the men who were there.

It's like,

Well,

What do you think of this?

And they go,

That's why we fought so that that could happen.

And I was woof.

That hit you like a ton of bricks.

It's really moving,

Really.

Yeah.

And again,

To hear those stories from from all sides of of the people who were there,

It was it was very moving.

And to see,

You know,

Just the scars of what happened.

You see the bunkers and you see where,

You know,

These big divots in the ground from where things were thrown and just the size of these cliffs.

You're like,

Oh,

My goodness,

People climbed these cliffs.

And yet the landscape was so breathtakingly beautiful.

It was very moving.

It was very moving.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm glad I made the time to go there.

It was just stunning.

It was stunning.

Yeah,

I actually I walked the Camino and I ended my I walked from southern France to northern France and then I walked along the Spanish coast.

And I did not get a chance to see Normandy at all on the French coast.

But,

You know,

France was ridiculously beautiful.

So I can imagine how and coastal places,

Beaches are usually gorgeous.

But what a surreal kind of I don't know.

That would have been really interesting to experience,

Knowing the history,

Knowing the the loss of life.

And then you have this the juxtaposition is so kind of jarring for me.

It's I can't really even put it into words.

I can't.

I try and I can't still.

And that was,

You know,

Many years ago that I did this.

It's beautiful.

It's beautiful.

Yeah.

Just the juxtaposition,

Like you said,

Very,

Very interesting.

Well,

I'd love to ask you the main question of the podcast,

Which is I would so appreciate,

You know,

I've Gretchen is hilarious,

OK?

She's like,

I've got three stories for you.

I've got more,

But I can tell you so wonderful.

I know she's so she's really funny.

I mean,

We did spend an extensive amount of time talking about her sweetheart,

Ferdinand.

So,

Yeah,

He is a good boy.

But it's I would love for you to share,

You know,

One story,

Two stories,

However many you feel like sharing something that you consider to be magical,

Miraculous or mysterious.

All right.

I'm going to I'm going to tie this into to Ghost Inside a Frame,

If you don't mind.

Yeah.

OK,

So so my song goes inside a frame.

It was inspired by my friend Jenny Pagliaro.

So we were in a band together called Roses and Cigarettes.

And two months into the release of our first album,

She was diagnosed with stage stage two breast cancer at 31.

And yeah,

It was.

Yeah,

We got something thrown at us for sure.

And yeah,

It was really it was hard.

It was really hard to see like a friend and a sister go through what she went through.

It was just it was really hard.

And in 2019,

She she died of stage four breast cancer and she was thirty five.

And,

You know,

We had built this whole,

You know,

This really cool thing together.

You know,

We made these two albums and we got to travel around and play and write music.

It was a really beautiful it was a really beautiful time in my life.

And again,

Like talk about juxtaposition,

You know,

This horrible thing that's constantly looming.

And,

You know,

Yeah,

You know,

Tried our best to make something beautiful out of it.

And with the time that was that was given and.

After she died,

Like,

You know,

They say like music is healing,

But like it wasn't healing for me for a while.

It just wasn't because because I was just so reminded by everything,

Couldn't listen to our music,

Still can't.

That was about six.

You know,

She died about six years ago.

I still can't listen to it.

It's still really hard for me.

And I was talking with my mom soon after Jenny had died.

And my mom said,

You know,

It's really strange is when you look at pictures of someone who's died and they will always stay the same and you are the one that changes.

But they are stuck.

And I'm like,

Oh,

You know,

The creative in me is like,

That's a good idea for a song.

I need to remember that.

I remember writing it in my little like red notebook where I keep all my like lyric ideas and stuff.

And for years I would.

So so Jenny died in 2019.

For like two years,

I would try and come up with stuff and did it and just nothing.

It sounded it sounded dumb and it sounded too forced.

And that's something I try not to do.

I try not to force things like things to just when they are meant to come to you,

It will be very natural and just very easy.

You have to think about it.

Is so I was in Austin.

I was playing some shows.

I think this was 2022.

I believe I'd have to look at my notes.

I think it was.

And I was just watching some stupid,

Like dating show on Netflix because I find those incredibly fascinating as as someone who studied like,

Yeah,

Interpersonal communication and,

You know,

Mass media and stuff.

Just yeah,

Nonverbal communication.

I find those shows incredibly fascinating.

So,

Yeah.

So I was just in a chill zone.

I was in a chill zone,

Had the AC on because it was really hot outside and I had a guitar with me.

It was my friend's guitar I borrowed.

And then just all of a sudden,

Like my hand was like kind of tingling and like it was really strange.

Even,

You know,

And I try to remember all the stuff that happens,

But I remember it felt like very miraculous.

I really have never felt so much like a conduit than I did in this moment.

And I had that red notebook and I grabbed it and I just started writing and writing and writing and writing and writing.

And there was a last line where now I'm just now I'm just a picture of a ghost who doesn't age.

I'm like,

Let's click.

And then I crossed out a ghost inside a frame and I'm like,

There it is.

I'm like,

OK,

I was looking at this the wrong way the entire time.

I was trying to talk from my perspective of the person who is alive.

Nope.

The song needs to be in the perspective of the person who is no longer here.

That is going to be in that like crack the nut of that song.

And from there,

It's just five minutes.

Those lyrics were done.

And then,

You know,

Maybe another five,

10 minutes,

Maybe the chords were there and it was just a and then it left.

Yeah,

I've never felt so much like a conduit in my life.

It was it was I just totally cried after because I knew like she helped me right now.

I'm certain of it.

I'm certain of it.

So that was really that was really moving.

I have to say,

Like,

You know,

Miracles.

That's definitely one of them,

For sure,

Because I know that song really helped me in my grief journey.

And I have had so many people since I released that song,

Send me messages on how it has helped them.

And just saying thank you for the words that I could not find.

Oh,

I'm a mess.

Every time I read,

You know,

Messages like that.

Yeah,

I feel like songs are given to you.

And that one,

I was a conduit.

I was a conduit for sure.

I can't even really explain like what it felt like.

Yeah,

That's the best that I can do at this moment in time.

But that was it was like it felt like tingles around my whole body and just it was in and then it left.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

First,

I just want to say I love the band name Fruits and Cigarettes.

Yeah.

So it comes from where we were both really big fans of Ray LaMontagne.

It's one of his songs.

So and I always thought like,

Oh,

That'd make a cool band name.

And then she's like,

Yeah,

You know,

I'm a big fan of Ray LaMontagne.

I'm like,

I think I have a band name.

What do you think?

And yeah,

It kind of it kind of stuck.

So well,

Let me ask you,

Well,

I do want to say,

First of all,

That some first,

I think it's really interesting that I start off the conversation telling you how much I love the song.

I you know,

Just it's practically the first thing I said to you when you got on the Zoom call.

I was like,

You know what song I like?

And here we are talking about it and the story behind it.

I think sometimes and you would probably agree,

You know,

That muse or that energetic force.

It's like I'm coming through.

I'm coming through now.

And you better be ready.

You better be ready because this is happening.

And it sounds like that.

That's kind of what happened.

Oh,

It's 100% what happened.

That's 100% what happened.

And it's it's a beautiful thing to have been absolutely present in that time and being open to it.

I constantly ask the universe all the time.

I'm like,

Please,

You know,

Allow me to stay open for ideas and creativity and to,

You know,

Be be a storyteller and tell stories from my heart and my my heart's perspective.

I always try and check in with the universe on that.

Yeah,

I think it's.

Oh,

Yeah,

I I am.

Yeah,

I just that song is just enchanting and gorgeous and a little haunting,

You know,

For me,

I just it was like,

As I said,

Sometimes the songs are a mood for your day.

And that's kind of the mood I was in.

And I was like,

This song is absolutely enchanting,

Really,

Really gorgeous.

I wanted to ask if you don't mind me.

I'm always intrigued how,

You know,

People meet and decide to collaborate because it is it's hard to find someone that you can collaborate with where it isn't angsty or frustrating.

And so I'm wondering,

Did you two meet when you were kids?

No,

No,

Isn't it all how we met?

I had been let go from a band because we had too many band members.

And we had yeah,

It was it was for like a kind of a corporate thing.

And there were seven of us,

But they're like,

We need bands of six.

So my buddy who was leading the band,

He's like,

Oh,

My God,

I'm so sorry.

I have to let you go.

And I'm like,

Oh,

Man,

It's all good.

We're still friends and everything.

It's all good.

And I remember driving home and like,

OK,

I need a reset.

I need to do I would like to be a part of a band that is playing regularly paid gigs.

You know,

I don't want to drive in any freeways for a while in a genre I'm not comfortable in so that I can grow as a musician.

And I went on Craigslist and found like exactly all four of those things.

I'm like,

Wow,

It's a lot to ask of the universe.

And the universe is like,

Here you go.

And I remember what I remember going through their website and I saw,

You know,

Jenny Pagliaro as the as the lead singer.

I'm like,

Oh,

She's Italian,

Too.

It's going to be easy.

If I can win over the singer,

Then I can get this gig.

And we just hit it off.

It's like we had been friends since high school.

It was just a very.

Yeah,

It was just like a click.

It was great.

And we were in that band for a little bit.

It was a country cover band.

And she had been,

You know,

During our breaks,

We would talk.

It's like,

Oh,

What are you up to in music?

Like,

What do you do?

And,

You know,

Kind of get to know each other.

And she's like,

Yeah,

You know,

I'm writing my own thing and writing my own music.

And I got a producer and and,

You know,

Just going to do that.

And I remember thinking,

Like,

I need to be a part of whatever she's a part of.

It was just a very guttural,

Like you need to you need to do this with her and be a creative partner with her.

And it was it was very easy.

It was very easy.

The ideas were always really cool.

And she came from more of that country singer songwriter perspective where,

You know,

I had a lot of the blues and the rock.

So what we did together,

I,

You know,

I'm really proud of what we did together and the stories that were told and all of that.

And our producer,

Mike Lyons,

Was just like such a such a wonderful light for us.

And it's still he's like a big brother to me.

And I still play with him all the time.

And and yeah,

That's how that's how we met.

And it was,

You know,

Five and a half years.

And it's strange to think now that she has been dead longer than I knew her in life.

You know,

It's yeah,

Like this year has been.

Yeah,

It's it's it's strange.

It's really strange that,

You know,

They don't the relationship doesn't end.

It just changes.

You know,

Through.

Yeah,

Because grief is a grief is a weird thing,

Because,

Yeah,

We had released our second album and she died a month later.

And we had been in Rolling Stone the day before she died.

Like they had talked about one of our songs.

And I feel like,

You know,

Her spirit was like,

OK,

I saw that through.

And then she was able to transition.

I really believe that.

Yeah,

I still I still carry her in the music that,

You know,

I write and certainly and that's and ghost inside a frame.

But,

You know,

I grabbed inspiration from other,

You know,

Dear people in my life who have,

You know,

No longer here physically.

But,

You know,

They come and see me in my dreams still every once in a while.

So that's always nice.

Yeah,

Yeah.

That is why I do love going to sleep every night.

I never know what kind of adventures I'm going to have.

I wanted to say,

Of course,

I'm so sorry about the loss,

About her loss and how sudden and young and quick.

And I mean,

I was reading your website night.

I was like,

What?

Thirty five.

I just get yourselves checked,

Ladies.

Go and get all the stuff.

She found it.

She found the lump in her breast.

She found it at thirty one.

Oh,

My God.

Yeah,

Go and be proactive.

Yes.

Yeah.

Go and go and do it.

I'm so sorry.

Can't even imagine.

You know,

Grief.

Where I'm at with it now is,

You know,

It's something we're all going to have to go through.

It's not it's not going to be avoided.

We all are going to have to go through it.

I you know,

And everyone deals with it differently because it's a it's a heavy thing.

And I feel like the deeper you love,

The deeper the grief is.

You know,

That's just that's just how it is.

Like I read somewhere that that,

You know,

Grief is the receipt of love.

And it is so true.

It is so true.

She is my life's greatest teacher.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And.

Yeah,

Like where I am with grief,

I'm you know,

And it's still there's still some things that are really raw for me still.

Still,

Like the music thing is just like that's I can't do it.

I can't do it.

I'm thankful that we cross paths,

You know,

And I feel like this part in my journey now where I'm at with my band and just just what a joyful life I have.

She's made me really appreciate all the little things.

And,

You know,

My bandmates and my friends and my family probably think I'm so cheesy.

But it's like,

You know,

I always if I love someone,

I tell them,

You know,

Because you just never know.

So it's like you just tell them,

You know,

And if you're cheesy about it,

After every gig,

I write my bandmates like little notes,

You know,

Like really,

Really thankful to have you in my band.

It's really,

You know,

Just like love playing with you.

And I'm so inspired by your art.

They probably think I'm cheesy,

But I just it's important.

It's important to feel appreciated,

Like tell people if you appreciate them,

Tell them if you love people,

Tell them they need like they need to know.

And and that's something I really through through her through her death is something that's just like I live in love so hard,

So,

So hard.

I'm thankful for every day.

Man,

I've never been more thankful for my health,

My life.

Yeah,

I got little like shoulder things I deal with.

And,

You know,

My right hip's a little tight because,

You know,

The way I stand when I play on stage,

You know,

These little things.

And but man,

It's like I'm saying that's the first thing I say every morning is like,

Like,

Thanks,

God,

My legs work and my lungs work and my heart beats.

And I don't have to tell it to and my family's healthy.

And I have,

You know,

I food in the fridge that nourishes my body.

And,

You know,

I'm loving,

Supportive family and group of friends.

And I get to do what I love for a living.

Like,

Life's good,

Man.

Life's good.

Yeah,

I can't sweat the small stuff.

I just I just don't.

It's like if it's not my control,

I can't can't stress about it.

Can't do it.

No,

It doesn't mean I can't pay my taxes.

Like,

Don't worry,

Man.

Like,

I pay my taxes,

You know?

No.

Well,

I love I mean,

I completely just am two thumbs up for all of that.

And in a way that you have gratitude,

Because I think a lot of it is gratitude.

You just you're able to see and understand and then have gratitude about what's important,

What to have,

You know,

What to be thankful for,

Who to be thankful for,

Right?

You know,

Whether it's the tree outside that gives you shade or the apple that you're eating or what have you.

I wish more people were like that,

Frankly.

So,

You know,

And sometimes it takes like a really big life shattering like.

Here's life and here's something that's been handed to you.

You know,

I think you have a choice like in my in my grief.

It's like,

OK,

Could I have,

You know,

Really been reckless?

And,

You know,

Just went to,

You know,

Do harm to my body,

Like mentally and physically,

You know,

Through,

You know,

Maybe like I'm just going to get drunk every night or I'm just going to do this.

I'm just going to do that.

I I wanted to talk to the grief,

Which is the hardest thing.

I wanted to talk to it.

And it was really hard.

I remember,

You know,

Talking to my friends and my family.

I'm like,

Listen,

I'm gonna be sad for a while.

I'm gonna be really sad.

I just need you to let me be sad and let me just talk to this,

Because that's the only way that I'm going to get through it,

Because I know I have so much beautiful life to live and so many so much like cool stuff I want to do that I just need to talk to this grief and learn from it and see what it because it's here to teach me something.

And I don't know what it is yet,

But I have to talk to it to find out.

It was really hard.

It was really,

Really hard and definitely,

You know,

Needed help and learning the tools to get there.

But music was not it just didn't help for a while.

Took me like almost a year to be like,

Oh,

Maybe I should,

You know,

Start writing music again.

It's almost a year.

Yeah.

And I'm thankful I got there and,

You know,

Just have some incredible friends and bandmates who really who really nurtured me and really made sure I felt like I was in a safe place.

I will be so forever grateful to them for that because they they saw everything.

And so it was.

Yeah,

I just felt I was like,

OK,

This is this is the next phase.

And this is,

You know,

We're going to get our footing and we're going to get there.

And,

You know,

I think it's led to some really beautiful music.

And and yeah,

I'm grateful for that.

And just,

You know,

Different.

I would say a different perspective on life,

But something that's.

Like,

There's just a lot of there's just a lot of gratitude.

There's a lot of gratitude,

Even for the little things,

You know,

Because I feel like when you put that energy out there,

It does come back to you.

I really believe that.

So even,

You know,

After my body sore after a workout,

I'm like,

Good job.

Even though I'm going to be real sore tomorrow and it's going to hurt to sit down,

You know,

But you just yeah,

You just you just take it a day at a time.

And,

You know,

And there's those bad days,

Too,

Like you're going to have hard days where you feel like,

You know,

It's like,

Oh,

My gosh,

Was this a good decision?

Was this a you know,

Is this a bad decision or whatever?

And you just I don't know.

You got to give the space to the bad days,

Too.

I know that,

You know,

The good ones make it maybe a little easier.

Give some perspective.

So I don't know.

Again,

I'm still learning.

That's where I'm at.

Aren't we all?

Aren't we all?

Has anyone ever told you that you're really funny?

Uh,

Yes.

Yes.

Like why?

Yes,

Because you are.

Thank you.

I try.

Gretchen and I,

We yeah,

Our text threads are pretty hilarious,

If I must say so.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I can imagine.

I wanted to ask you the last question.

So you have to know over the last week,

Week and a half,

The Odyssey has been coming up for me over and over and over,

Whether it's someone me hearing it,

Someone say it at another table.

I've read it like three different times in different places.

Just this morning,

I was reading a book that I did not expect to even have.

And he says the Odyssey in the night.

I'm on your website.

And it says that Red River,

It draws inspiration from the ancient Greek classics,

The Odyssey and the Iliad.

That's true.

Yes,

And I'm so what is it about those tales that inspires you or inspired your work or captivates you?

I think it's the search for self.

Really,

Simply put,

That's just such an epic story.

And you just think about all the things those people went through just to get home.

Think about Odysseus,

Just all the things they had to do just to get home.

It's like,

I just want to get home.

I want to go home and see my wife and my son,

Jesus,

You know,

I,

I was always really intrigued by like Greek and Roman mythology.

I thought it was so like as a kid,

I love I'm reading a book now,

The Sacred Band.

Yeah,

It's,

It's really,

Really interesting.

Yeah,

Yeah,

It's it's Yeah,

Check it out.

It's a really interesting read.

I had for that song in particular,

I had started off with a guitar riff.

And then I was just kind of humming,

Because that's how all my melodies kind of start.

I just don't judge it.

And I just kind of hum a melody and maybe like a couple words start to come out and it starts to form.

I try not to judge it,

Even though it sounds absolutely ridiculous.

If you're like a fly on the wall,

You're like,

Was she you know,

She's summoning demons,

What is happening?

So yeah,

I'm playing it's a guitar that I that I hang on one of the walls.

And it's like a dobro.

And yeah,

Red River sent me to my hallowed grave.

Whoa,

Okay,

That's dark.

Let's like,

You know,

And with that one line,

I'm like,

Okay,

What does this feel like to me?

Is that we are we are summoning something?

Is there a story here?

You know,

Reverse the tide move me as I sail away?

Hmm.

What if we do this from the perspective of,

You know,

A sailor?

Okay,

You know,

And you start building that imagery?

Okay,

You know,

With the red sky with the warning and all that.

And again,

That search of self.

I'm like,

Oh,

Yeah,

The Odyssey and the Iliad.

What a beautiful kind of let's let's be one of those characters.

Let's be one of those characters in this.

I always think of that song as a prelude.

Because it doesn't really follow like there's not a chorus.

And here's the verse.

And here's the chorus.

And then there's a bridge like it doesn't do that.

I wanted it to feel disjointed and kind of like unsure and uneasy.

It just felt like that's what the song wanted.

So I'm just like,

I'm okay.

I'm like,

I'm following this,

Like whatever you need,

Like we're going with this.

Even at the beginning,

That really interesting sound.

What that is,

Is my my great,

Great,

Great uncle.

His name was Harry Bertoia.

So he was a you familiar?

Very Bertoia.

Okay,

So he was a mid century modern artist.

Go ahead and look him up.

So he's my great,

Great uncle.

I'm sure I'm certain you've seen his chairs.

I'm certain you've seen you've seen his stuff.

He has he has artwork in the all over the country,

All over the country.

Really incredible,

Incredible artist.

And he created these musical sculptures.

And my great grandfather kind of helped him out with that too.

And they're called Synambient.

And I found I asked my cousin,

Who was Harry's daughter,

I said,

You know,

Is there someone in LA who has like a big one of these?

Because here's the idea I have for the song.

I want someone to listen to it and be like,

What the heck is that?

That was my first thing.

I didn't want it to be something sweet and like,

Guiding you in gently.

It's like,

What the hell is that?

So we went to a private owner in LA,

And I got to play this thing.

And it's so cool.

There's a video on YouTube,

You can check it out.

And we go in and record it.

And it was such a blast.

And again,

I'm always,

You know,

Like,

That's part of my that's part of my lineage.

And I just wanted to include,

You know,

Some of his art into some of mine.

And it just so captured the vibe of,

You know,

That search for self.

And just there's something about,

Again,

You know,

Going back to water,

You know,

And just and rowing and contemplation.

Like,

It was just,

That was the energy I wanted to give to that song.

And,

And,

You know,

I think I think we did it.

I think we got it.

Yeah.

Oh,

My God.

I'm like,

You know,

Of all the possible answers you could ever give,

There was just that was so meaty.

And like,

Also,

All these unexpected,

Like,

Side streets that we went down.

And I mean,

It's very clear,

Very clear that your family is creative,

Talented,

Driven.

You know,

It's,

You've got a lot of art in your family.

I mean,

Honestly,

I mean,

Fortunate.

Yeah,

We're tapping into something in the blood.

I don't know.

But it's like,

I can't not be creative.

Like,

I had a nine to five before I started doing music full time.

And I was sitting at my desk.

And,

You know,

Like,

I was good at my job.

You know,

I was able to do a lot of cool things for this company and get things moving.

And I was just sitting at my desk.

I'm like,

I can't do this anymore.

Like,

I can't do this anymore.

There's more to life than this.

I can't.

Yeah,

It was just that.

Those creative,

Like,

Bubbles in my blood.

It's just like,

Get out of the desk.

You'll figure it out.

You'll figure it out.

You can't do this.

So yeah,

It was like,

I have to.

I feel like there's a point where it's,

It chooses you.

You don't choose it.

It chooses you.

And that,

You know,

There was all these things.

Okay,

I went to school for this.

And then I got a job here and buy the book.

This is great.

And I'm like,

This book's not for me.

Like,

I can't,

I can't do this.

I can't do this.

Even just thinking about that now.

That was over 10 years ago.

I'm so glad I didn't stay there.

I'm so glad I'm doing this now.

Granted,

There are days where I absolutely,

I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

Did I make a good decision in being a,

You know,

A full time musician?

Do I question myself sometimes?

Absolutely.

I'm not going to pretend that I don't.

Because there are days where I'm like,

Oh boy,

This is getting a little challenging for me.

You know,

Did I?

And you start second guessing yourself.

But it's funny how the universe gives you little things to know,

Like,

No,

You're okay.

This is a little bit of a hard part right now.

And there's a lesson in here.

So how about you be centered and like figure out what that lesson is?

Yeah,

It's humbling for sure.

All right,

Babes,

You already know what I'm going to say.

Thank you to Angela for being such a badass guest and being so hilarious and making me fall in love with the world again,

Just knowing that there are such incredible human beings out there.

There would be no podcast,

Except that all these people keep referring their friends and encouraging other people to be on the pod and to have me grill them and ask questions about magic.

So I need to thank pretty much every guest who's ever been on the show.

And then everyone who's referring all of their fabulous friends to me.

It's really helping me out.

And I'm meeting so many incredible people.

I want to just ask you,

If you like what you hear,

Please do consider leaving a rating or a review wherever you listen to the podcast.

Those ratings and reviews help other people find this little labor of love of mine.

Thank you for listening.

And here's my one request.

Be like Angela.

I mean,

Angela does talk about what loss looks like,

About what devastation looks like,

About what heartbreak looks like.

I think most of us by now have lost someone who is close to us.

Someone that we hold dear to our hearts.

And it is never easy getting over those losses.

I mean,

I still,

My friend Linda died in 2011,

And I still cry sometimes.

Thinking about her.

I mean,

It is so difficult to go through life knowing that you'll never talk again,

You know,

In real life to that person that you love and who's already gone.

But Angela has really modeled this way of living with their grief,

Moving forward in life with their grief,

Honoring her grief,

Honoring your grief,

And still building something beautiful,

Still emerging on the other side,

Keeping that person in her thoughts,

In her heart,

But moving forward,

Even still,

To make this world a more beautiful place.

So this time I'm urging you to be like Angela and hold those people that you've lost close to your hearts.

Remember them daily or weekly,

And be grateful for what they brought into your life.

And remind people to do the same.

Grief is not a bad thing.

Sorrow is not something we should be ashamed of.

It's okay to be sad when you're thinking of someone you've lost.

And it's okay to bring that person and their memories along with you in the adventures you're going to be creating.

Because those people who have touched us,

Who have made our lives more beautiful,

They deserve to be honored.

They deserve to be remembered.

And they deserve,

Wherever they are,

To witness you making not only this world,

But your life a more beautiful and more incredible place.