Episode Forty-Three: The Interview-Kari Kaiser Niedermaier

Kari has known God since she was a child. In this longer interview, hear how her miracle, at the birth of her twins, reminded her that she is beloved, and how deep listening, openness and inviting those we disagree with into our tent will save us all.

Transcript

When I approached the priest for communion.

And so when I took the bread and dipped it in the wine and put it in my mouth,

It felt like light was just coming out of me.

And I just assumed that that was true for everybody.

So I've had a deep connection with God since I was young.

What a beautiful thing.

And I love that as a child,

You're looking around,

You're like,

So did you feel that?

Yeah,

I know.

I'm like,

What?

So I guess I'll cheat and use the tag that I have in my emails.

And that is that I primarily describe myself as a lover of the divine.

And I usually end that with,

That means you.

And so I love exploring like the sparks of divine around me,

Whether it's in other beings,

Human or otherwise,

Or communities,

Or just any time there's like weird connections of people or things and looking for the spark of the divine in that.

But I also love to hold space for community.

And so I approached my ministry and my parenting and my life a little differently than maybe other ministers,

Because I was a doula first.

I lived in the birth world for a long time.

And so I carved out my own language when I worked with couples.

And one of the things that I really,

That resonated with me and with the people I worked with was teaching partners or anyone that was gonna be assisting a woman to see themselves as holding womb space.

And so that's kind of how I envision like my ministry and my parenting as well.

And I don't do it perfectly by any means.

But like when I'm thinking of,

Like when I prepared,

For instance,

The Easter liturgy,

I'm thinking like,

How can I hold womb space for anyone that's going to join us to encounter the beauty of the way of the cross and the beauty of resurrection?

You know what I mean?

Like,

How do I do that?

And so I'm thinking about that when the musicians and I are deciding,

You know,

What music or how we're gonna do different pieces of the liturgy.

I'm always asking,

How can we hold space not only so I can encounter the divine spark and whoever's there,

But also so that I can hold space for others too.

Wow.

So we unexpectedly got pregnant while we were in college.

Actually,

Fun fact,

And you can totally put this out there cause I don't hide it,

But my husband and I knew each other six weeks before we conceived our first daughter.

I mean,

It was a whirlwind romance and I was still,

We both were still in college and I intended to take some time off to just like figure out parenting and all that,

But I just fell in love with her and just fell in love with the whole vocation of parenting.

And the birth process was amazing.

Like talking about being a seeker of the divine.

I mean,

There was a spark of the divine in that whole process.

And again,

Usually when there's a divine spark,

It's beautiful and scary as hell.

And I don't know how else to explain birth,

But that was a good description.

So,

I was kind of hooked after I had her and we had gone through a Bradley method childbirth class while we were pregnant with her.

And I just really liked it.

It was very,

There was a lot of research,

But there was also a tuning into your body.

And so it was kind of a both left brain,

Right brain kind of process.

And so I was trained in that and that led to then working with couples,

Not only for teaching childbirth classes,

But also sitting with them in preparation during birth postpartum.

And it really was,

I didn't know that it was a ministry while I was doing it.

I just loved doing it.

But as I went to seminary,

I was like,

Oh,

Like I was doing ministry.

And that really shapes how I continue to do ministry.

I was raised Catholic,

But my parents weren't really practicing.

We lived in a small town and they got a divorce,

Not once,

But twice,

Which was sacrosanct in a small Catholic town.

And so I was raised Catholic,

But my parents weren't really practicing.

We lived in a small town and they got a divorce not once,

But twice,

Which was sacrosanct in a small Catholic town,

Like to each other.

They got married and divorced and married and divorced again.

So,

But I always was drawn to that divine spark.

In fact,

I remember at my first communion,

So I went to a Catholic school,

So I still had all the milestones,

Even though my parents weren't particularly practicing.

And I remember at my first communion,

I wholeheartedly bought the idea that I was gonna encounter God when I approached the priest for communion.

And so when I took the bread and dipped it in the wine and put it in my mouth,

It felt like light was just coming out of me.

And I just assumed that that was true for everybody.

So I've had a deep connection with God since I was young,

An intermittent and sometimes hostile relationship with the church,

But always connected to God.

When I was in college,

I got,

I kind of waited for a little bit in Campus Crusade for Christ for a very short amount of time,

Because it felt very militant,

But it gave me some language to talk about God and my relationship with God more.

And so I went back to this parish where I had gone to parochial school and where one of my grandmas had been a member forever and said,

I wanna tell my faith story.

Can I tell my faith story?

And the priest said,

Oh no,

You will rock the boat.

So I turned away from the church for a while cause it just didn't seem like there was room in the boat for me.

And it's also kind of amazing that your parents were not dogmatic.

So what do they think of your vocation now?

What are their thoughts?

So my dad jokes that he listens as long as my sermons are under 10 minutes.

So he's still very much a very casual Catholic and he wants religion on his own terms,

Which is fine.

My mom still struggles with alcoholism and I think there's a lot of guilt.

So I'm not sure that she thinks that there's room for her in any tent.

Does that make any sense?

So she just kind of ignores it all.

It's not a topic.

For instance,

When I was ordained,

Neither of them attended,

Which didn't bring me a lot of pain.

I just didn't really,

I didn't expect it.

And I wasn't surprised that it wasn't a big deal for them.

So where to start?

I,

Again,

I mentioned when I was young,

I had that experience with communion.

So I've always felt like I've connected with God since I was young.

And so there's been some times where I've directly heard God's voice and there's times when I've been given visions.

And so I have no,

Like,

I don't have doubt in the way that people are like,

Is God real?

I mean,

I have lots of doubts about how we define God or how we try to contain God and how that gets in the way.

But there's something bigger than anything I could ever understand that brings me peace and clarity when I'm most confused.

And usually it's when I'm in turmoil.

I mean,

I remember that my twins were born at 27 weeks and I spent 11 weeks praying the Psalms over them,

Just because the Psalmist were the only place that I could find voice for all of the feelings that I had.

And I was a control freak when it comes to parenting and birthing and kids.

And,

You know,

I didn't have any drugs up until their birth.

And then I think I had to have several procedures before they were born.

And I think I ended up having like four epidurals in like two weeks or something.

I mean,

It was hilarious.

It was talking about a bitch slap,

Like,

Oh,

You thought this was horrible.

Like,

Well,

Let's see how horrible it is.

So there was a lot of humility and recognizing that,

Like,

You never know what God's going to hand you and you just have to do the best you can.

But I really thought they were going to,

At least one of them,

Tommy was really,

Really sick.

I didn't think he was going to make it.

And I just remember praying fervently for him and then also feeling guilt.

Because when you're in the NICU for 11 weeks,

There are babies that don't make it.

So,

You know,

Why do you get to keep praying for these babies?

And then there's other parents that don't get to.

And I remember driving home and we were homeschooling at the time.

So I had four kids at home and I was trying to manage people coming in a week at a time to help with them while also being in the NICU.

And I mean,

I was pumping like a fierce woman because I wanted to try to get them breast mugs,

Keep them healthy.

And it was just insane.

But I remember driving home and just pouring out my heart and my soul and this sense,

Like God saying,

I got this.

And it wasn't this sense like that they were going to live.

That's not what I felt.

I was like,

I got this.

Like,

Just be,

Like,

I got this.

I'll be with you.

I'll be with them.

I got this.

And that was enough.

I never felt that like control and that anxiety,

You know,

That builds up when you feel like there's something out of your control.

And so for the rest of their journey,

I was good.

And then a few years later,

It was tumultuous after we brought them home.

They were sick and I was nursing and pumping.

And I mean,

Dan and I joke that that year of our marriage just doesn't count,

But we wounded each other deeply in those two years.

I mean,

Deeply.

There were some marital indiscretions and there was a lot of anger and it was just really,

Really horrible.

And I love to play the victim.

I mean,

I am a codependent to heart.

So I love to play the victim.

And I kept repeating these stories over and over in my mind of how unfair it was and how I was a victim and et cetera,

Et cetera.

And I remember probably about maybe a year and a half into this turmoil,

I mean,

We'd seen a couple of different marriage counselors and it just was,

It was ugly.

And I remember pouring out my heart to God and all of a sudden I heard God's voice say,

How do you think I feel?

And it like took the wind out of me.

Like this idea,

Like,

Who do I think I am that people aren't gonna harm me when God,

Like love,

Is constantly,

People are turning their back on love and are doing harmful things in love's name.

And that just,

It just caught me.

And immediately I knew,

Who are you?

You're no one,

Like shit's gonna happen.

You know,

Like shit is going to happen and you can choose to figure out how to move forward in love with everyone involved or not.

And it wasn't easy.

And I had to pray every day,

Like,

God let me see my husband as you see him because lots of days I couldn't see him that way.

I'm sure he couldn't see me that way either.

And so it was a lot of choosing a path of love instead of choosing hate or turning away or turning in on ourselves or whatnot.

But like,

God showed up for real.

Like I tell people the only reason we're still married is because of that.

And it's beautiful.

I remember one time in that midst,

I was sitting at the park and I was just crying to God,

Like,

Please just let me leave.

Like,

I just need the pain to stop.

Just like,

Let me leave.

And God gave me an image of Dan and I old walking hand in hand.

And again,

It was one of those things,

Just like when driving home from the NICU,

Where it was like,

All right,

Like there was no promise it was going to be easy.

There was no promise that it was always going to be picture perfect.

But it was like,

If you can stay the course,

There's going to be worth it.

Things are going to be holy.

And that was enough.

First of all,

Yeit,

You made me cry.

I'm crying a little bit because that question,

How do you think I feel?

That's so powerful and so beautiful.

I'm just,

I kind of,

My jaw just dropped there,

But have you ever read The Alchemist?

Yes,

Actually.

Okay,

And the little boy goes on this journey,

But basically it's to get,

The journey is essentially to get closer to the soul of the world.

And so that is the language that I use for God,

That God is the soul of the world.

And I have certainly,

I have had God speak to me and I've had visions and sometimes it feels to me like I'm skating very,

Like almost too close to the soul of the world.

Do you ever feel that way?

Like there's a very fine line between,

You know,

Being on one side of the line where you're privy to these messages and these visions and the other side of the line where you'll get incinerated because you're,

You know,

It's like flying too close to the sun.

Do you ever feel that way?

Absolutely,

It felt so true.

I don't remember which of Nadia's books she wrote this.

Someone had asked her,

I heard her speak and so that's why I know it's in one of her books because she quoted it.

But she said,

Or someone said to her something along the lines of like,

What do you do for quiet time or how do you stay connected with God?

And she was like,

Why the hell would I want to do that?

And I was like,

Yes.

So I totally get that.

Trying to figure out how to be centered yourself,

But also like take time away.

I mean,

One of my biggest,

This has been true since seminary,

But you know,

Self-care is always my biggest thing.

I'm the child of two alcoholics.

I'm codependent to the core.

So like I'm in my brain constantly.

I'm constantly analyzing like how things work and people and like looking for solutions,

Which is beautiful.

It's a gift.

It's also a hell of a shadow.

Like I do not know how to play.

So my kids help with that a lot,

But it's something that with my spiritual director,

I've talked a lot about is like when the kids are gone,

You have to figure out how to play.

Catherine Turpin at ILIF did a book study with me one of the summers that I was at ILIF and it was the artist something.

I'm not gonna remember the name of it.

I'll have to text it to you or email it to you.

So if you want to word over what it is,

But it's like 12 things and they're all artsy things like write a haiku poem for a week or work with clay for a week or whatever.

And they were totally imperfect,

But it was like you only had to commit to it for a week.

Do you know what I mean?

And so that's one of the things I know I'll be working on forever.

And I think that speaks to feeling like you're gonna get burned because I think that happens sometimes when we can't just be us,

Like not us deeply connected to God or deeply connected to everyone else,

But just like breathe,

Rest,

Play,

Like just chill.

And that's a work in progress for me.

I think the story of you accepting your first communion and having that light kind of strike you or inhabit you,

It just,

What a benediction.

Yes.

It's a beautiful thing.

And I love that as a child,

You're looking around,

You're like,

So did you feel that?

Yeah,

I know.

We all felt that.

Yeah,

You too.

But it was a singular experience for you.

Yes.

And I think- I honestly hope that it wasn't.

I hope that there were others that felt something not because it matters that they felt it,

But I just hope that,

Because it felt less like it was coming from the outside,

As much as it was like emanating.

And so I think everybody needs to feel that.

Not many people would confide and say,

Oh yeah,

I hear voices sometimes and have visions because 800 years ago,

You were run out of town,

You were run out of the village,

You were stoned to death,

And now we live in a society or a world where we can talk openly about those things.

Teresa of Avila and Hildegard,

They were nuns.

And so they had these experiences,

But they were venerated.

And I think that was probably because they were within the church.

If you had those experiences outside the church,

I think it's not an ideal.

Yes,

You're a witch.

Yeah.

I also really love your sentiment about Nadia Bolt's Weber saying,

No,

I don't go looking.

I'm like,

Give me a break.

And then I imagined her being in that place,

In that position where she's like,

Okay,

Boundaries,

God.

Boundaries.

Yes,

Yes.

Okay,

I need some space here.

That's a beautiful image.

And we live in a time where I guess we're cheeky enough where we feel like we can say that,

Okay,

Back off,

Okay?

I just need some time off.

I think it's a beautiful thing to be called,

It's a beautiful thing to live so close to the soul of the world,

But it is also exhausting and it is very hard work.

Did you ever feel like you had a choice where you could say,

God,

This offer's pretty enticing,

But I might pass.

Did you ever feel that way?

I don't think I felt that way with God,

But with the church,

I think that's a whole nother story,

If that makes any sense.

I mean,

Like I said,

I don't feel like if I would have went the midwifery route,

That I wouldn't have been filling God's call.

That just wasn't the path that God had set out for me.

Does that make any sense?

Like,

I feel like that is a holy vocation where you're doing that womb space and that womb making and looking for the divine as much as a minister.

But I still,

And I have honest conversations with my synod about this and with some of my congregation leadership,

But sometimes I know that sort of that holy community that God is calling to live out,

How God calls for humans to live is meant to happen.

I don't know what relationship that has with the institutional church.

And it's something that I struggle with.

The institutional church in the sense how it exists right now,

Not like across the time of life.

Like I think that the ways that whether it's a church or a sangha or a synagogue or whatnot,

That God forms those communities for a time and for a reason,

But as humans,

Sometimes we cling to them much longer than they need to need or continue to serve their purpose.

And so it's hard because a daily wonder am I moving the institutional church towards that way of being in community that God is calling us to or am I actually lost on my way and maybe afraid to go outside of the institutional church to make it?

So it's something I'm constantly maybe not too fervently asking God because I don't want to get slapped in the face,

But at least sometimes.

So God,

Let's talk about that again.

Right.

People everywhere are discovering that maybe to create true social change,

To live in community with diverse peoples of diverse cultures,

To embrace the world and all of its multiplicities,

They cannot do those things authentically within the religious structures as they are now.

Correct.

And I feel that people,

Society,

Even the world,

You know,

These articles keep coming out saying people are more and more people are spiritual,

But not religious.

And that's happening for a reason.

It's like,

What does it mean to be fed in today's world?

Like spiritually,

Relationally,

In community?

What does that mean?

And why aren't churches able to do that for so many?

So I think it's really interesting.

It'll be interesting to see where all of this takes us this next century.

It's fascinating.

And this is my dilemma when it comes down to it.

And I think that this captures it well.

I have been participating in the People's Inauguration.

Valerie Kaur launched this around the time of when Biden and Kamala Harris were inaugurated.

And they did like 10 days of,

It's kind of like community organizing training,

But it's also just like,

How do you do it in a way that's whole,

Kind of?

There's a lot of community organizing.

The left can be as militant as the right can be over their different things.

And there's not really a central way,

You know what I'm saying?

And so she was interviewing the one that I was really meditating on this week,

And they did it 10 days straight,

And I need more space than that.

So like,

I've been listening to like one a week,

And just like slowly like savoring it,

Letting it like sit in.

If I need to take a week off,

I do.

But so the one this week has been on listening.

And she interviewed Van Jones,

Who's a CNN commentator.

And he said,

And this is my feeling on the church,

He said,

You know,

If you're like,

Well,

You know,

Forget it.

I'm,

I'm not going to pay any attention to Trump.

Clearly,

He's an idiot,

Like,

I'm just gonna throw him away.

And then I'm not going to listen to the 10,

000 or whatever insurrectionists at the Capitol because clearly they're idiots,

And I'm just gonna throw them away.

Or the what 30 or 40 million that think that the election was stolen or that what,

I don't know what the numbers are.

He knew them because it's his job.

I don't know the numbers that voted for Trump.

But he said,

Our trash is extremist treasure.

And that's how I feel about the church.

Like we know there's,

There's research that shows that the institutional churches is one of the most racist places in America.

In a lot of spaces,

It's probably one of the most homophobic.

So if if I just leave,

If I just go do my own thing,

Which I could do,

Like maybe it's fear.

But maybe it's also that I actually believe that there's room in the tent for everybody and that everyone's redeemable.

Not that like I have it all figured out,

But I want to walk with people who are so sure they have it figured out,

But their tent is so small that there's not room for anyone in it.

And so I'm torn in this place because Van Jones is right.

Like if we all just walk away from our current institutions and leave them,

We could.

So there needs to be people who are dreaming and building new things.

But we also have to stay in relationship with the old institutions or our trash is extremist treasure.

And that's horrifying.

Like what would our society look like?

This has been episode 43 of Bite Sized Blessings,

The podcast all about the magic and spirit that surrounds us.

If only we open our eyes to it.

And whether you choose to listen to our Bite Sized offerings for that five to 10 minutes of freedom in your day or the longer interviews,

We're grateful you're here.

I need to thank my guest,

Carrie Niedermayer for sharing her story with me today,

As well as the creators of the music used.

Taiga Sound Productions,

Music L.

Files,

Evan McLeod,

Winnie the Moo,

Sasha End,

Frank Schroeder,

And Raphael Crux.

For complete attribution,

Please see the Bite Sized Blessings website at bite-sized-blessings.

Com.

On the website,

You'll find links to other change makers,

Books,

Music,

And words I think will lift and inspire you.

Also,

If you get a chance,

Reviews and ratings are where it's at.

It helps others find us.

Please leave a rating and review wherever you find your podcasts,

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Thank you for listening,

And here's my one request.

Be like Carrie.

Think of the other,

You know,

The other with the capital O,

Those you disagree with,

Those you don't particularly like.

Think of them and make your tent larger.

Include them,

Hopefully changing hearts and minds along the way.