Ep. 109-The Interview: Douglas Tsoi

Meet Douglas-Franciscan Spiritual Director, Grace facilitator, and creator of sacred spaces. We talk about "dark grace," and how maybe, just maybe, it's what gently (or not so gently) puts us on the right path. Douglas' miracle? Getting fired from a dream job...and that has made all the difference!

Transcript

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Bite-Sized Blessings Podcast.

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Now,

My guest this week,

The unstoppable and frankly astonishing Douglas Soi.

He is so many things.

It's so hard to kind of describe everything that Douglas does,

But he is a Franciscan spiritual director.

He used to be a lawyer,

A twist of fate,

Or rather he would argue a twist of grace,

Kind of pulled the rug out from underneath him and set him on a new path in life.

But the path that he's on is creating gifts and grace for so many people.

I don't want to spoil it.

I don't want to go into too much detail.

I'll let Douglas explain everything.

He's much better at it than I am.

So now,

Episode 109 of Bite-sized Blessings.

When I was 28 years old,

I was a lawyer,

Making $150,

000 a year and miserable.

I really disliked my job,

But I had been taught,

Chinese immigrant family,

This is what it's supposed to have.

I did well in school,

I got a super high paying job and had a nice apartment,

A nice car,

And this was the life I was supposed to have.

And I got fired or laid off in the 2001 dot-com bust.

And at the time,

That was the most difficult experience of my life because on some level,

My parents disowned me.

Yeah,

So I would say,

It's funny because I change the answer every five years,

But currently I would say that I'm a Franciscan spiritual director.

I'm a spiritual director trained in the Franciscan tradition.

And my mission or goal in life is to help people participate in grace.

So I've got a bunch of projects around helping people participate in grace.

That's really wonderful.

And I'm so curious,

How did you choose the Franciscan path?

Wow,

That's a long story.

But the short of it,

I'm sure we'll get into it later,

Is that when I interviewed with Sister Mary Jo for my Franciscan spiritual director program,

She said,

There's two things you need to know about Franciscan theology.

Number one,

God loves you extravagantly,

Period.

And I'm like,

I've never heard that before.

I grew up Christian,

And I've heard,

God loves me,

But I'm a sinner.

Or God loves me,

But Christ had to die for my sins.

Or God loves me,

But you got to obey these rules.

And you learn very quickly in life that anytime anyone tells you something but,

You don't have to pay attention to the thing before the word but.

The only thing they're really trying to tell you is the words after but.

So I've been told all my life that,

You know,

I'm a sinner,

That I got to obey these rules,

And Christ had to die for my sins.

But no one ever told me,

You are loved extravagantly by God.

So that's number one.

And number two,

God's extravagant love shows up as your daily life.

So you know,

The Christian word,

And I don't even actually consider myself a Christian,

But the Christian word is grace,

And I do believe in grace.

The whole idea of Franciscan theology is grace is all around us.

We're in fact,

We're drenched in it.

And all we have to do is wake up to it.

That's so beautiful and so true.

And I love that.

I hadn't,

I've not heard that before.

You know,

God loves you extravagantly,

But that's such a perfect word.

It is such a perfect word for what she's trying to convey.

You know how God loves.

It's so beautiful.

I just,

You've kind of blown my mind right now.

I have to take a minute.

Also,

I mean,

You have a master's in theology.

What did you learn?

Oh,

Gosh,

You know,

I have a master's in divinity.

So I have to say that my one of my favorite classes was God in Tupac Shakur.

Really amazing.

I loved that class.

My final paper was on the theme of resurrection throughout Tupac's life and his music.

And then another favorite class was body and sexuality in the Hebrew Bible.

And boy,

That Hebrew Bible is steamy.

If you're looking for those passages.

It was actually kind of a shocking class,

Because I had no idea.

I learned a lot in divinity school.

I'd have to say that my most boring class was infant baptism during the Protestant Reformation.

And what was shocking to me was reading all of these historical texts about people killing each other over when babies should be baptized and what was legit.

They were literally going out in the streets and killing each other for that.

And I just could not comprehend why that would be necessary.

Which I guess,

You know,

Goes back to show that religion has been fractious and filled with conflict for quite a long time.

Let's see,

As far as grace goes,

I would say just living my daily life and having spontaneous interactions with people that are unexpected.

That has shown me that grace is moving in my life.

I mean,

I remember walking the Camino.

I went from France to Spain and France has impeccable directions when you're hiking.

Spain is more like someone threw out a bunch of Legos and you have to try to figure out where you're supposed to be going.

So I was walking through this pretty big town and the signage was not good.

And I came to this roundabout and,

You know,

I just thought I could walk through this roundabout forever in a circle and never know which exit I'm supposed to take.

And this man drove past me,

Honked,

Waved at me,

Then drove around the circle again and came back and looked at me,

Caught my eye and pointed in the right direction that the pilgrim was supposed to go.

And I thought,

Oh,

There's grace.

He could tell because I was wearing a giant backpack and I looked utterly confused.

But I have to say that that was absolutely one moment where I thought,

Thank you.

Whoever is watching over me,

God,

Thank you.

Spirits,

Energy.

It just felt like such a grace-filled moment because I was no longer lost.

Yeah,

It's so funny.

Yeah,

It's so funny.

That's just like a little tiny,

You know,

Moment of grace.

And it reminds me of Father Richard Rohr.

He says,

Like,

The real question isn't really about evil.

The question really is a question of good.

Like,

Instead of why is there evil in the world?

Like,

Why are people good to each other?

Right.

Like,

Why does a stranger take time of their day to just point you in the right direction?

And that's just a tiny example of,

Like,

Why there's good in the world.

Like,

It's confounding on some level.

Why are people good to each other when there's no need to be?

It really is.

I think for me,

It's more fun to be good and,

You know,

Maybe tell someone they have amazing hair or buy them a cup of coffee.

That's more fun than being mean.

But that's just me.

Yeah,

I grew up some of the Adventist.

And I just never believed.

Like,

You know,

When I went to summer camp,

Christian summer camp,

I don't know if you went to Christian summer camp,

But like,

You know,

You spend the week doing really fun things,

Going to swimming pool,

Learning archery.

And very last night,

Like they had this big bonfire and,

You know,

All these teen counselors who you'd like totally spent the week idolizing.

They're up front and they're singing guitar and they're like,

Hey,

You want to,

You know,

Be saved by Jesus Christ tonight?

Like,

Come on down and keep on singing and dancing and more people come down and then like,

Hey,

Do you want to be like,

Recommit,

You know,

To Jesus Christ?

And people,

More people come on down.

Like,

If you've ever been baptized,

Come on down.

And,

You know,

And everyone's singing and dancing at the bonfire.

There's always like a few kids up in the bleachers and the cold that refuse to come on down.

That was me.

Wow,

That takes so much guts.

I'm so impressed.

Good for you.

Yeah,

It's fun.

I don't think of it as guts.

It just,

I realized that I have some sort of oppositional personality that like,

I just don't,

If I don't believe it,

I'm not going to do it.

And that's caused all sorts of problems and all sorts of opportunities in my life.

So was it specifically a Seventh-Day Adventist camp?

Or was it,

It was,

Okay.

No,

I saw,

I grew up with my aunt and uncle,

And my uncle died.

And my aunt has become more of a Chinese Buddhist.

But I think,

You know,

They still believe in God and,

But they've become much more ecumenical.

Like,

They have sort of like,

Created some synergy between,

You know,

Chinese Buddhism and Christianity.

I'm so selfishly interested in this answer.

But for example,

The beautiful program,

Your creation,

The Gratitude Dojo.

How did you have the,

How did you get the inspiration for that?

How did that happen?

Yeah,

Well,

So I have,

I have a number of projects,

And they all sort of fit underneath the general umbrella of helping people participate in grace.

So like the Gratitude Dojo and the Appreciation Effect are two of them.

But the Gratitude Dojo,

I just conceived of,

I don't know,

Five years ago.

Like,

You know,

If once you let go of all the,

All the words,

You know,

Someone described all religions as fingers pointing to the moon,

But they're not the moon itself.

So don't confuse,

Don't confuse your fingers with the moon.

And like,

When you get down to it,

Like gratitude is,

Is the root practice of every single religion,

Right?

And,

You know,

It's sufficient,

Right?

Like,

You don't need anything else,

If you can feel grateful.

I think Eckhart probably said that,

Like,

If you can feel grateful in the moment,

You need nothing else.

I was just curious,

Because,

You know,

You,

You've created these really beautiful events,

And kind of gatherings where people can participate.

And for me,

You know,

Those inspirations and those creative moments where one has these epiphanies of,

Of what they can create the possibilities in the world.

Those are a kind of grace,

You know,

And so I'm,

What I know about you,

And everything I've read about you,

Since I've done a little research,

You're like,

Pretty much walking around,

Smothered in grace all the time.

Because it seems like you're just,

You have these wonderful ideas,

Pretty much constantly.

Well,

Yeah,

I mean,

So it's funny,

I started doing the Gratitude Dojo,

Because I have a background as a teacher.

You know,

For a number of years,

I had a business called Portland Underground Grad School,

Which was,

Which,

Which was a school for lifelong learners,

And,

You know,

All sorts of courses for adults,

Basically people who want to keep on learning and growing in community.

And when I sold that business,

I was like,

Well,

What is the most important thing I would want to teach people?

Like,

If I,

If I wanted to represent like,

You know,

Parker Palmer,

Who is this Quaker teacher says,

Like,

Let your life speak.

So like,

What am I going to be about?

And it's like,

Oh,

Like,

I want to help people live in gratitude and get connected to each other in gratitude.

So the Gratitude Dojo is a two hour event,

And I think we're going to hold one pretty soon here in Santa Fe,

Where people get together and they just practice gratitude with each other at 12 different science based stations.

So one of them is like,

Thanking your ancestors.

Another one is like thinking about all the things your body does for you that you never,

You know,

You just take for granted,

Right?

Like,

And gratitude is just sort of the anecdote to entitlement.

And like,

You know,

People have,

You know,

One of my other specialties is around teaching personal finance.

And one of the things I recognize is people have huge issues about money.

And,

You know,

If you stop to think about all the things,

All the ways that money comes into your life,

And all the things that money gets you,

Like electricity or Internet or food,

Right?

Like,

If you could develop a different relationship around money,

If you just felt grateful around it,

Like less fear based,

I would assume.

Yeah,

And yeah,

And once you start feeling grateful,

You there's a certain freedom to it,

Right?

Like,

And you,

Once you accept things,

You can change when you resist them,

Nothing changes.

So,

Yeah,

So there's 12 different gratitude stations.

And,

You know,

The amazing thing is,

As you say,

Is like,

Because I hold gratitude dojos,

I get to be grateful.

And like,

What else do what else do I want?

Really?

Right.

It's true.

I never thought of it that way.

That's the added bonus.

On some levels,

It's really the reason I do it,

Right?

Like,

Again,

The interesting thing is,

You know,

Again,

In the Franciscan theology,

If the whole world is a manifestation of God's love,

That means we are the manifestations of God's love for each for each other.

Right.

So and I think that is actually the hardest thing to accept.

That like,

We are good and we are creating grace for other people.

And I'm like,

You know,

You have all these projects and I don't know,

How do you feel about this idea that you're creating grace for others?

It's exhausting.

What do you mean?

I mean,

It's it's,

You know,

I do have all these projects,

But as I was explaining to someone today,

I also.

Try to be mindful of the smaller acts of kindness,

So there's a widow here in town.

Whose husband was on the podcast and died unexpectedly,

And I try to have lunch with her.

At least once a month because she's really isolated and alone.

I try to be,

You know,

A little bit bring a little bit of grace into other people's lives.

I love every time I have lunch with her.

She is just this wonderful,

Hilarious,

Enchanting human being.

And so for me,

It's like the little acts of grace,

Like maybe someone will come into the coffee shop and I buy them a cup of coffee or maybe I let someone go ahead of me in the line at the grocery store.

But then,

You know,

I'm in this new position where I get to do events and it's still in its nascent stages.

It's super exciting because there's so much possibility.

I think after the first year where we've got some things that are set in stone and things start kind of flowing,

Because right now they're not flowing,

I'll feel a little more grace filled.

Or I love lifting people up.

So that author night that would happen last week felt so good to me because four really exemplary human beings,

Each one so different,

Got to read from their works and explain who they were so people could get to know them.

And it turned out to be such success.

That kind of stuff,

You know,

The grace is in the room with the authors,

With the audience who is so clearly connecting with them.

And then for me to witness these people who are my friends,

You know,

Shine in front of other people.

There was there was lots of grace happening that night.

So beautiful.

Here's the thing I see about you,

Kirsten.

I don't know if you know this idea,

But the soul doesn't want success.

It wants struggle.

And your soul loves creating and it just loves constantly being on the edge.

Making new stuff,

Not sure if it's going to be successful or not,

But that's where you feel most alive.

Right,

Like you have not chosen an easy path,

Right?

Like.

Because on some level,

Your soul demands this creative process,

Right,

Which is super anxiety producing and super like on the edge of failure at all times.

And bravo,

Right?

Like you,

You have you have scored a victory over all those safe fuckers out there.

I should have a T-shirt that says that.

My God,

Thank you.

So,

You know,

One of my other projects around gratitude is the appreciation effect.

And it's a platform where like.

Well,

Let's say your mom,

Like you want to actually create an appreciation campaign for your mom.

So what you do is you put her name in the email and to our website and what it does is spits you out a link and you share the link with all her friends and loved ones.

Everyone writes her appreciation note.

And what we do is we'll send it to her automatically one per day for as long as they last.

So I just actually had one for my 50th birthday and 100 people wrote notes for me for 100 straight days.

I felt seen and appreciated and fundamentally,

You know,

It's interesting because we talk about gratitude,

Right?

Gratitude is an amazing thing,

But there is an extra element when gratitude is shared,

Right?

Because it puts us in community.

And have you read the Body Keeps the Score?

Yeah.

So in the Body Keeps the Score,

What Bessel van der Kolk says is that the thing that actually heals trauma and creates resilience is when you feel seen and recognized by a secure other.

And it's not just being like connected to people,

It's actually having a sense that other people see you as who you are.

And fundamentally,

That's what the appreciation effect does.

You feel seen and held for days on end,

Right?

Because like a normal birthday,

Everyone wishes you a happy birthday and it's gone,

Right?

But if you feel seen and held for weeks or months,

It's a qualitatively different experience.

So the platform is free because we just want people to spread appreciation and gratitude in the world.

Again,

It's participating in grace.

So if you have a loved one with a birthday or graduation or they're feeling ill or they're going through a very difficult time,

Start an appreciation campaign.

The other thing I was thinking of is,

Again,

Under the theme of participating in grace,

I actually teach personal finance.

I teach a course called Financial Freedom.

And it's really about taking control of your life to live the life or taking control of your finances to live the life you want.

You know,

One of the untold stories in this was that I actually got laid off again at age 42.

But since I had been 22 years old,

I had lived on about twenty,

Twenty five thousand dollars a year and saved and invested the rest.

And so when I got laid off at 42,

I realized I just didn't have to work anymore.

I had saved enough money.

So all these projects that I do are actually a function of a past self creating a life for my future self.

And so that's one of the things I talk about.

I really love the idea that,

Like,

You know,

When you borrow money or you don't save enough money,

You're asking your future self to make up the difference.

And when you actually get a hold of your finances,

What you're doing is you're actually creating a life.

You're becoming the blessed saint,

As David White says,

The blessed saint of your future.

So,

Yeah,

I'm really interested in intersections of grace and money.

And so the last thing is the Jubilee Fund,

Where I got a bunch of friends.

We collected a hundred thousand dollars and we just paid off a hundred thousand dollars of credit card debt of other people.

What we did is we asked them to pay back a zero percent interest over five years and we donate all the money to reparations.

So the whole idea is that we're all participating in grace,

Right?

We can if those of us who have resources can give money to pay off the debt.

Of other people,

And in turn,

Those people become donors.

So our whole thing is we turn debtors into donors or debt into donations.

And by doing that,

We're all participating in grace.

We're all recognizing we all belong to this and money should flow to the places that we need it most.

One of my questions is going to be if you have an honorific,

But now I'm thinking it's saint.

You know,

There's just,

You know,

Talk about the whole idea that we're drenched in grace.

Like one of the things I think about is what I call dark grace.

Like the things grace is not always like,

You know,

Pretty flowers and perfume and doggy,

You know,

Doggy hugs.

There is a there's a fierce,

Dark quality to grace,

Too.

And sometimes things happen that like you do not want,

But are actually,

You know,

A manifestation of the things that you truly needed.

So like when I was 28 years old,

I was a lawyer,

You know,

Making $150,

000 a year and miserable.

I really dislike my job,

But I had been taught,

You know,

Chinese immigrant family.

This is what I was supposed to have.

Like I did well in school.

I got a super high paying job and had a nice apartment,

A nice car.

And this was the life I was supposed to have.

And I got fired or laid off in the 2001 dot com bust.

And at the time,

That was the most difficult experience of my life,

Because on some level,

My parents disowned me because I was not good enough.

Right.

Like and,

You know,

They came from an immigrant background.

They fled the communists.

They they lost everything.

And so for their one son to reject it all,

I knew I was not going to be a lawyer anymore.

I became a Quaker schoolteacher.

They it was a rejection of everything that they had done for me.

Which is curiously related to the second story,

Which in 2019,

I had a psychedelic experience called Five MEO DMT.

And there's an experience of,

I don't know,

Ego dissolution or ego extinction.

And I merged I died and merged into infinite light and came back.

And,

You know,

The words are not very.

They don't describe the experience,

And that experience is what actually led me to become a Franciscan spiritual director,

Because after you have that experience,

Like what else is important in life?

And when I came out of that experience,

My facilitator,

I said,

You know,

Hey,

Hey,

Douglas,

How are you doing?

And I looked up and I said,

It's a cliche until it's fully understood.

Like I said.

Everything's going to be OK.

Right.

And he sort of nodded and like five minutes later,

I still in silence and he said,

How are you doing?

And I said,

I actually took his hand and I put it underneath my shirt and put it on my heart.

And I said,

I don't have to try anymore.

And,

You know,

The way I interpret it now is like,

You know,

We spend all our lives trying,

You know,

Trying to wear the right clothes,

Wear the right.

You know,

Makeup or like have the right job or live in the right neighborhood,

Have the right partner,

All of it is like we're just desperately trying to feel loved.

And once you have an experience where your ego goes away.

You realize all of it is unnecessary,

And so I relate both of those experiences of like the everyday magic in life is surrender.

You have to surrender and sometimes surrender is forced upon you.

And failure is just.

It's the best way to learn that you are not in control and our egos constantly.

Keep us desperately grasping for control,

But,

You know,

The funny thing is.

You can't even control your own thoughts,

Thoughts just running through your head and the fact that you can't control your own thoughts or anything that happens in reality should be a message like all you have to do is let go.

And just participate in life.

So,

You know,

You ask for magic,

There's magic everywhere.

There is grace everywhere.

I kind of equate it to because I love physics,

You know,

And it also lines up with some guests that I've had talking about Star Wars and the midichlorians that are supposedly all around us.

And,

You know,

The Higgs field,

Which is supposedly out there,

Which we're trying to or the Planck field.

And it's so much easier to imagine grace if you imagine grace as something like that,

Something that is within and without us,

That we're constantly moving through and walking through and are surrounded by maybe even breathing in grace every second of every day.

And that's really beautiful.

Your story is so interesting because I've never heard of dark grace before.

And I find that phrase really provocative because it is so true.

You know,

I just recently experienced a breakup last year.

And I would say that that event was filled with a lot of dark grace because I was in a life that was very comfortable and I was too lazy to get out of it,

Even knowing that it wasn't where I was supposed to be.

And the whole breakup was not something that I wanted because I was so lazy.

There was a lot of dark grace in it because now I've emerged on the other side and my life is 10,

000 times better.

But when you're in the middle of those situations,

Like when you lost your job,

When you were a lawyer,

It's sometimes there,

There's some time where at least for me,

It took a while for me to understand that this was probably the best thing that I could do.

And it was probably the biggest gift in the universe for me.

Did you experience that as well?

Yeah,

I mean,

The fact that I'm no longer a lawyer is sort of the basis of everything I've ever done since then.

Right.

But yeah,

What you're saying is so wise.

And it's such a cliche,

Right?

Like the worst things that ever happened to me are the best.

No one really fully believes it.

Right.

And it's totally true.

It's true!

I think for me,

If there's any element of wisdom that I can offer as a spiritual director,

It's like the more you surrender,

The more that you can be okay with it all,

Right?

Like including all the ugly things in you,

Which is like a lifelong practice,

The easier life becomes.

What I find so intriguing about your story is you're this highfalutin,

High achieving lawyer,

You know?

Live in the dream,

Right?

The American dream.

Success,

Money,

You know,

I think you lived in Southern California at that point.

Everything one dreams of.

And then in one second,

It's taken away from you.

And since that experience,

Your life,

At least from my point of view,

Has branched out in all these beautiful and diverse and gorgeous ways,

Which you wouldn't have,

Which wouldn't have happened unless you lost the job initially.

And it's so intriguing to me.

Yeah,

I mean,

I think fundamentally it's about participating in grace,

Right?

You have to surrender.

And surrendering is the most difficult thing.

Just like you and your relationship.

Surrender is the most difficult thing.

I know,

Because we want things the way we want them.

Well,

It's interesting,

Because we have such a tight grip on life,

Right?

And one of my favorite quotes,

I forgot,

It's from a Buddhist teacher who said,

The bad news is you're falling.

You're just falling.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

The good news is there's no ground.

And that's it.

That's another episode of Bite-sized Blessings,

The podcast.

I'm recording this in a crazy windstorm here in Santa Fe.

So if there are weird sounds and artifacts in the background,

I do apologize.

I want to thank my guest,

My fascinating and just unstoppable guest,

Douglas Soi,

For sharing all of his stories today.

And for all of his good works in the world.

We need more people doing good works.

With this podcast,

I get to meet a lot of people doing that kind of stuff.

So for me,

That's kind of a huge gift.

And it's part of the reason I do it.

I need to thank the creators of the music used for this episode.

Henritt,

Frank Schroeder,

Winnie the Moog,

Palash Sunvaya,

Frank Schroeder,

Stephen O'Brien,

And Sasha End.

For complete attribution,

Please see the Bite-sized Blessings website at bitesizedblessings.

Com On the website,

You'll find links to books,

Music,

Cool art,

And changemakers like Douglas,

That will lighten and brighten your day.

I'll also include a link to his website,

So you can check out all the cool stuff that he's created.

The Gratitude Dojo,

The Appreciation Effects,

And all that other groovy stuff.

So make sure to check under the episode show notes,

Click on it,

And it'll take you to the world that Douglas has created.

Thank you for listening,

And here's my one request.

Be like Douglas.

Live with the idea that grace is all around us,

Whether it's light grace or dark grace.

We're breathing it in,

We are walking through it.

It is everywhere,

Inside and outside.

Live with that idea,

Just knowing,

Knowing,

That it's okay to surrender,

Because you'll always be taken care of.