Worshipper & Worshipped: Radiance Sutras Verse 142-143

During this session, we discuss Verses 142-143 of the Insight Verses from the 'Radiance Sutras', a translation of the Vijanana Bhairava Tantra by Lorin Loche. A meditation follows our discussion.

These sessions are recorded every week, and all are welcome.

Transcript

So today we are reading from the Radiant Sutras.

This is a book written by Lauren Roche where he interprets the ancient tantric text Vijnana Bhairava Tantra.

Not only does he interpret it,

He puts it into a poetic form so that our hearts can hear it.

One of the great challenges of studying tantra is that it's not something that we can learn intellectually.

It's not something that we can sit and just study the philosophy and now we become tantric.

Now we can study the philosophy to sort of replace maybe some of the philosophies we've been taught about life.

We've often been taught a lot of ideas that tell us that we're very small and very restricted and very powerless.

Or we've been taught ideas about how the world is that again keep us very small and keep our lives and our choices very restricted.

So in that way we can definitely study tantra and expand those ideas and replace those with philosophies that actually allow us to get bigger.

It's funny,

I'm questioning every single thing I've ever been taught these days.

So I'm going to tell you this but I actually don't know if it's true.

But they used to say that a goldfish will grow to the size of its container.

So if a goldfish is in a very small container,

It will stay a certain size to allow it to have the right amount of oxygen.

Put it in a bigger tank,

It will grow bigger.

Put it in a river,

It will grow to its full size.

Oh Marielle says it's true.

Brilliant.

I thought it was.

I just it's so funny the things we say.

Ah yes,

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

And it's like are we sure?

Who said that?

And why are we repeating it?

Things like that,

Like really foundational spiritual axioms.

I'm seriously questioning and not in a bad way,

Just in a where did that come from actually?

So hence the goldfish question.

So very similarly,

The philosophies that we were raised in from our family,

Our church,

Our society,

These are like the size of our fishbowl and we can only grow so big.

So learning the philosophies of other ideas that resonate with us allow us to expand bigger and bigger and bigger.

So in that way,

Understanding the philosophy of Tantra can allow us to expand because of course the foundation of Tantra is that we in this physical body are also infinite divinity.

That's a really big fishbowl.

Like suddenly all choices are before us.

There's nothing limiting us.

And that's an entirely different way to understand the world,

To understand our own choices,

To understand where we are right now.

So this is good.

But then when we truly want to step into what it is to be Tantric,

To live in a way that that divinity is like gold sparkles in everything we do.

And I don't mean out in the world necessarily,

I mean in our own lives.

That we have to experience.

That only comes through practice.

That only comes through contemplations,

Meditations,

Kriya,

Healing.

It only happens through experience.

It's kind of just like in life.

You can go to school and you can read all kinds of books about painting,

Deep sea diving,

Raising children,

Being married,

Running for office,

Whatever it is.

And you can have all the intellectual ideas in the world.

But until you do it,

You know nothing.

It's the same with Tantra.

We have to have the experience.

And the experience happens in our heart.

It doesn't happen in our mind.

And our world is extremely mental.

We've really been trained that just knowing it is good enough.

And it's not.

And so these Sutras of the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra are written in Sanskrit.

And Sanskrit is a very rich,

Rich language.

And when you know it,

You can read it.

And each word can change in its meaning enough for you to understand the spirit of what's being taught.

But when you or I read the Sanskrit,

It's too flat.

It doesn't land because we don't understand the language itself.

Doesn't even translate into English.

Not in its fullness.

You know,

It's kind of like,

You know,

They say,

How do you describe red,

The color red to a blind person?

Well,

You can't.

How do you describe transcendent experience to someone who's never had one?

You can't.

There's no English to describe it.

And so what our wonderful friend Lauren Roche has done here is he has taken the Sanskrit and he has done immense study and meditation and deep,

Deep dives into this.

I mean,

This is an older book.

It's not a new book.

And he has created poetry out of the Sanskrit so that our hearts can hear it.

And our hearts are bigger and more multidimensional than our mind.

So in many ways,

The tantric path is when our heart actually leads us in an experience,

Even though our mind is like,

Yeah,

But what about this?

And yeah,

But that can't be true.

That's not right.

Because our mind is stuck in the old philosophies.

Our mind is stuck in fears and all the things that constantly limit us.

And so it's a very,

Very interesting journey of listening within.

And that's why I love this book so much,

Which is why we've been studying it here for over three years,

Because it allows our hearts to hear it.

So today we are doing verses 142 and 143.

And if you have a book,

We're on page 155.

And the last thing I want to just mention about these sutras is the book has three parts of the verses.

The first part is called the banter verses,

Where it's a conversation between Bhairava,

God,

The divine,

And Devi,

The goddess,

The human,

The manifest.

So in many ways,

You can imagine this as a conversation between your divine self and your physical self,

However you want to understand that.

Or you can imagine it as a conversation between Bhairava and Devi.

And then the next 112 verses are called the Yukti verses,

Which are all contemplations,

Practices,

Ideas,

Things that can kind of go into our hearts and become part of us and change us.

And then the last section are the insight verses.

And we are reading from the insight verses now.

If you are new to these,

I have a huge playlist called the Radiant Sutras here on Insight Timer.

Where you can go back and listen to all the past classes.

And you can do them in any order,

And there's a little meditation and all kinds of fun things.

Angie says,

Lauren spent 27 years translating the sutras.

Wow.

No small,

And you can tell,

Right?

It's so beautiful.

So let's close our eyes.

Let's breathe deeply.

Deeply.

Expanding the belly as we inhale.

Contracting as we exhale.

Connecting with that part of you inside that never changes.

The part of you who was the same when you were five years old,

And has always been there,

And will continue to be there.

So this reading is a continuation of the conversation where Bhairava says,

If you focus on a single meditation,

A single practice,

And go all the way in,

You will achieve total bliss,

Total joy,

And you will transcend all things of this world.

Today's reading is The Goddess Then Asks.

If this is the nature of the universal self,

Then who is to be worshipped?

Who do I invoke?

And who do I meditate upon?

To whom do I offer oblations?

To whom do I sacrifice?

If everything is to be worshipped,

If everything is divine,

And consciousness merges with that divine essence,

Then what happens to the distinction between worshipper and worshipped?

What comes to you when you hear that?

I have often wondered this.

Mm-hmm.

Great question.

I'm stumped.

No separation.

Merging with the divine essence.

Love.

Divine as one.

Becoming your own beloved lover.

Maybe it was a small fishbowl that told us we must sacrifice to the divine.

Worshipper and worshipped become one.

We offer ourselves to ourselves.

I only know that I exist.

But if only I exist and I am God,

Then you are also a reflection of God,

Too.

Mm-hmm.

Unity.

I'm going to read a direct translation of these two sutras.

I'm reading this from this book called the Sri Vijnana Bhairava Tantra by Swami Satya Sagananda Saraswati.

The goddess said,

O great Lord,

If this is the nature of supreme reality,

He is liberated while living and not affected by the activities of the world while active.

Thus,

She said,

O great Lord,

Tell me,

In the established order,

Who would be invoked and what would be the invocation?

Who is to be worshipped or meditated upon?

And who is to be gratified by that worship?

Because there's two sutras,

I do want to touch on,

I've done this before where I've taught two sutras and then regretted it and gone back.

But this one really does,

These two belong together.

In all the translations and commentaries that I read,

They all blended these two together.

The first part of this,

It's all about he is liberated even while living and carrying on all the activities of life.

He is not affected by them.

This is actually the first sutra,

143.

I've always been fascinated by spirituality.

I was raised deep in the Anglican church.

My grandfather was a minister,

My uncle was a minister,

You know.

But it was spirituality that really always intrigued me,

That mystical experience of God,

The direct experience without any books,

Without any people telling me what I should believe or how I should believe it.

It was that mystical experience in all the religions,

The Sufis,

The Hindu mystics,

The Muslim mystics,

Everybody.

That was always what was interesting to me.

And so then you go on a journey to discover how to experience this merging.

And we study yoga,

We study meditation or we practice meditation,

We study tantra,

We study all the different faiths.

But the funny thing is,

There's this weird sense that you don't ever actually get there.

We're going to do all the yoga,

We're going to do all the kriyas,

We're going to do the meditations,

But we're always just going to be a messed up human,

Right?

Like,

Yeah,

I'm going to keep doing these meditations,

But I'm still going to be pissed off at my family,

Or I'm still going to be annoyed by politics,

And I'm still going to be upset about that.

I mean,

Obviously,

Right?

I'm still part of the world,

And there's all these things that I really need to be upset about.

So I can only be so enlightened,

Right?

I can only go so far on this path because you need to understand the world I live in,

And the life I've had,

And my current situation.

Again,

It comes back to that small fishbowl,

That it's almost like that fish knows,

But it can't lose the fishbowl.

And I think about that a lot.

I mean,

There's a lot of stories or ideas going around spiritual communities that say things like,

Oh,

Well,

You know,

The healing journey never ends.

You know,

You're always on a healing journey.

Are you?

Do you have to always be on a healing journey?

And it's almost like there's some part of us that doesn't actually believe that this stuff works.

Here we are on Insight Timer.

Thousands of teachers,

Millions of people in the community.

Do we actually think this works?

Do we think that sitting in meditation actually heals our nervous system?

Do we believe that sitting and doing a pranayama,

Doing a kriya,

Do we think that it actually brings us closer to God,

Closer to divinity?

Or is there some program in us that says,

Oh,

No,

It's basically just like an exercise program.

You know,

It's just like going to the gym.

You know,

If you stop doing it,

You lose it.

It's an interesting question,

Because if we really believe it works,

There will come a time that we're happy.

That's all enlightenment is,

Literally becoming lighter.

Imagine just letting yourself be happy,

Letting the meditations work.

And so,

Of course,

This first part,

The first sutra is this sort of like goddess says,

Oh,

Great Lord,

If this is the nature of supreme reality,

He is liberated while living and not affected by the activities of the world while active.

And she's kind of confused by this,

Like,

How does that work?

And the challenge is,

Is that normally in this belief system,

You achieve moksha,

Freedom when you die.

And then all your concerns and worries of the world go with your body.

But what this is saying is that you would be liberated while alive and still in the world,

Still living in the world.

What do you guys feel like?

Can you imagine that?

Let's do an experiment for a second.

Let's close our eyes.

Let's just breathe for a moment.

Let go all the thoughts.

Can you imagine feeling pure happiness,

Pure connection with nature,

The divine,

The stars,

The oceans,

And walking through your life unaffected by the things that take you out of that?

And there's no right answer to this question,

Because I think it's a very difficult thing.

But what are some of the ideas or things that come up for you when you imagine that?

Because I think it's very significant on our path.

It would be bliss.

Support from,

To the community on earth as it is in heaven.

Or that the kingdom of God is within you.

And don't get me wrong.

When I think of that,

When I do that experiment,

I have thoughts that come up and say,

Yeah,

But I mean,

You've got to worry about that,

Right?

You got to care about this.

What about that?

Like it's a real challenge,

Freedom from running and clinging.

It is no small thing.

But the crazy thing is,

This is why this sutra is all about.

It's sort of reflecting on the previous sutras that say,

If you do even one practice and dive all the way in,

You will achieve this.

And the crazy thing is,

Again,

In my experience,

Is I can be completely upset about something.

And then over time,

Maybe I'm doing practices,

Maybe I'm getting counseling,

Maybe I'm getting help from this,

Maybe whatever.

And then five years later,

I actually couldn't have fathomed how I saw it five years previously.

Sometimes I look back at myself when I was married,

Maybe if I go back 25 years,

And I think back to that woman,

And I think,

Wow,

She felt so limited.

And my entire world at that time was so defined,

And I was so constricted.

But I'm not that person today.

I actually have an entirely different view of the world.

There's really something about having faith in that,

That when there's a practice you love,

And you do that practice,

That it is changing you.

It is actually changing you.

And so this is why it's always interesting.

We have topics in our mind.

Imagine there's sort of a ticker tape of various topics that are sort of floating around in your mind right now.

It could be anything from finances,

To family,

To love,

To kids,

To politics,

To who knows what you want to do tomorrow.

It's just a little list of all these things that are floating around in your consciousness.

Well,

The reality is,

There's always a ticker tape of topics floating around in your consciousness around you.

They've always been there.

They always will be there.

They're simply the circumstances of life.

They're just whatever's going on around us,

Because we're human and we're here,

And we're a part of the world.

But who we are changes.

All those same things that I'm,

If I were to say,

Here are all the things I'm thinking about today,

And I was to go back in time and get my 25-year-old consciousness and come forward,

Me,

Same person,

Would interpret all those things differently.

So imagine really diving into whatever practice you love,

And knowing that all the things that are really upsetting you today,

You will see differently a year from now.

You will be more enlightened.

You will be happier.

You will have greater insight.

You will have a broader perspective.

You will be able to find solutions.

It's no small thing,

Especially in this year.

It's 2025 and beyond.

We live in a different time.

You know,

We don't have to suffer with things like we did 50 years ago.

What I genuinely believe is in the 80s,

All these energy things came forward.

All these,

The explosion of Reiki,

And the understanding of chakras,

And energy,

And seeing all these things.

And then yoga,

Meditation,

Tantra,

All these things started to rise.

And it was almost like for a while we were just sort of playing with them.

We were exploring them.

They were expanding our consciousness.

And then 2012 came,

And something big changed.

That suddenly all of these ideas that we'd been playing with in the 80s and 90s,

They became medicine.

And now we just do it.

And we do the meditation.

We do the practice.

We do the Kriya.

And we are different.

And we're growing so fast.

And I just think it's so inspirational and so wonderful to know that we really,

Really can change.

That's what the foundation of this sutra reading's about,

Is imagine living in that place.

And we can all do it right now.

We can literally just suspend all of our fears and concerns in this moment,

And just imagine what our heart feels like in that state of oneness,

In that state of enlightenment.

And so then the second part of our sutra reading is all about another,

It's again,

It's another stage of confusion based on that small fish tank.

Because then the next stage is,

Yeah,

But so if I'm all in one,

And I am the divine,

And I am enlightened,

And everything is divine,

And I am divine,

And you're divine,

Well then who do I pray to?

Who is above me?

Who do I pray to?

Who gives me answers?

And this is an interesting question.

There was a teacher,

Paramahansa Ramakrishna,

And he revered the goddess Kali.

And often,

So of course in this tradition you would give things to the goddess.

You would lay food before her,

You would put a garland over her,

You would put lights over her,

You would do all these things in honor of the goddess.

But he would go into a trance,

Into this pure enlightened state,

And instead he would take these lights and he would flow them all over himself.

And then he would take this beautiful garland and he would put it around his neck.

And the prasad,

The sweets that normally would be laid before Kali,

He ate them.

Because he is the divine.

What does that feel like for you to hear that?

To imagine living like that?

Does it feel sacrilegious?

Does it feel wonderful?

I genuinely want to know,

I would love to know how you feel about that.

Does it feel egotistical?

It feels right.

It feels foreign but exciting.

Kind of scary.

The within that is within you is eternal.

I struggle with the egotistical part.

If the premise is that I am a divine expression of God,

Then I worship myself.

Holy God,

My ploy.

It makes me question what is there that is not divine.

Exactly.

It feels amazing.

I think of the artist who sacrifices themselves for their art as they become one.

To be responsible for our own happiness.

It feels like this is what's missing on my God-shaped.

Stuck between being part of the divine and the divine.

It makes me question,

Do I think I'm worthy of it?

We are never alone.

Vine,

Human.

Particle,

Whole.

You can feel how important a question this is.

This is the foundation of the tantric path.

You know,

When I think of this,

I imagine,

Wow,

No wonder the tantrics were considered rebels.

Those in the more orthodox religious path spent so enjoying,

You know,

Putting all these sacrifices before the goddesses and doing all these oblations.

And then for someone to walk along and say,

But you are God.

You are the divine.

Worship you.

This is so counterculture.

Across the board,

Probably short of Buddhism.

It would be considered pretty radical.

I align with being a particle of the whole.

Why isn't this the most important teaching from earliest childhood?

So every person here experiences this differently.

So I want to say how I see it,

But to deeply know in your hearts that this is,

These are just words that I am trying to speak my best guess.

But for me,

I imagine the way it works is that we're actually speaking of different dimensions.

So that in the dimension of duality,

That you and I,

That all of us here are in,

Where I am Katrina and Kathleen is Kathleen and Angie is Angie and Amy is Amy.

And,

You know,

We are particles.

We are manifest beings here in Maya.

But in another dimension,

We are all divinity.

It's like I have this vision of this bright golden light pouring out of me that extends into all of your golden light.

And we all have this golden light that we truly are.

And we are all individual beings.

But they don't necessarily exist in the same dimension.

Like they all exist in the same space.

But we don't necessarily experience it all in the same dimension.

Until we shift consciousness.

So you imagine all of us here right now are sitting in a room and we're meditating together.

We're breathing,

We're doing pranayama,

Maybe we're chanting.

Maybe we've done a beautiful yoga kriya.

And at the end,

We are truly all on the same wavelength,

The same vibe.

And we are one.

And we open our eyes and we look around at everyone in the room.

But there is really no sense of difference.

Even though you are looking at other people,

You're all the same.

There's a saying in Christianity,

Jesus says,

Where two or more gather,

I am there,

Or something like that.

We can experience this oneness.

Worship is an action.

Hearing this makes me want to use,

Not use that word.

Rather than engaging in worship,

I want to try and just allow and feel reverence.

There was a question earlier by L.

Do you think with this growth of enlightenment,

The opposite has also grown?

I don't know.

But what I wonder about sometimes is,

Am I just seeing it more now?

Because I'm not so enmeshed in it.

You know,

It's almost like imagine you're on the playground and there's bullies.

And there's all these social dynamics.

And you hate it.

For me,

For example,

High school was so brutal.

It was just torture for me.

I was very awkward and uncomfortable and bullied.

And I hid in the library for a couple of years.

And it was just a very,

Very difficult time.

And I just kept telling myself,

This isn't the rest of your life.

This isn't the rest of your life.

One day you'll graduate and all of these people will disappear.

And you'll start a new life.

And I had to repeat this mantra to myself a lot.

And while I was enmeshed in it,

I couldn't see.

I couldn't see what was going on.

But if I was to observe myself back then,

I'd be able to see it.

So is it worse because I can see it?

Or is the difference just that I can see it?

And I don't know.

It's a very important question that we could probably talk for a long,

Long time about.

And I think there's probably 20 interesting angles to look at.

So it's an important question.

So what I'd like to do is I'd like to,

I'm just going to do a short meditation.

And then I'm going to reread the Sutras.

So let's close our eyes,

Wherever you are.

Just breathe deeply.

And I want you to imagine yourself in your 95th year.

And you're sitting on a porch,

Watching the world,

Watching people.

And you're remembering,

You,

Throughout your life,

The ups,

The downs,

Challenges,

The joys.

You're looking at it from 50,

000 feet,

Watching how it all works together.

And then you feel this perspective inside of your heart.

And it starts to fill every cell of your body.

This awareness,

This understanding of humanity.

And all of a sudden,

You are you,

At this age,

With all of that understanding,

With all of that wisdom.

And you breathe deeply,

Observing the world,

Observing the people,

Observing yourself.

And you realize what an interesting life this is.

What an interesting reality to be able to see the big picture and all the small pictures.

And then close your eyes,

In your mind's eye,

And feel the divine spark inside of you.

Some believe that the spark that causes our heart to beat,

The sinoatrial valve,

Is our divinity.

Imagine,

With every heartbeat,

Divine energy flows through your whole body.

Infinite,

Eternal,

Beautiful light.

That you are this divinity,

In human form.

The goddess then asks,

If this is the nature of the universal self,

Then who is to be worshipped?

Who do I invoke?

And who do I meditate upon?

To whom do I offer oblations?

To whom do I sacrifice?

If everything is divine,

And consciousness merges with that divine essence,

Then what happens to the distinction between worshipper and worshipped?

And let's take a deep breath in together.

Exhale.

So thank you for being here,

And we'll see you soon.

Reviews

I enjoy your talks so much, Katrina 🥰. I love the questions that you ask. And I love that you can say "I don't know" and just sit with a question. I see your wholeness and it is beautiful 🤍🤍🤍

So interesting 🧐. This shone a little light in my darkness. I reckon you are amazing Katrina 🌸

Dearest Katrina, When I walk through my orchard these days and I stop by the rose bush which arbors a beautiful rubi color grape and I pick a bunch and bring it into my mouth, it really does feel like I’m worshipping the worshipper. When I walk into my front garden and I pick a cherry tomatoe and bring it into my mouth and it bursts into a juicy flavor of sun and water, I do feel like I’m worshipping the worshipper. When I contemplate the forest of giant sunflowers right in front of my porch (hopefully the same porch I will be standing on at 95;), I truly feel like I’m looking at the most beautifully adorned alter worshipping me, the mountain beyond, the field mice that feed on it, the wild ponies who also reach from over the fence to grab the sunflowers they can eat, the divine all around. I don’t feel guilty, just very grateful for the practice of tantra giving me relief from the crazy desires that still hunt me so often of receiving unconditional love from my daddy, unconditional love the practice of meditation helps me find within. You sharing this book with us reminds me so much of when I was younger studying the bible, verse by verse. Like you, I have always been fascinated by the spiritual. Thank you for sharing with me your fascination. 🙏🙏🙏