How To Overcome Negative Body Image

Today, we are going to be talking about body image and how the way we view ourselves is often distorted and how that distorted view of ourselves can lead to pain, depression, and anxiety and hold us back from doing so much!  Please note:  This topic may be very sensitive to many.  We are doing this episode to expand awareness of these challenges and the subsequent problems they may make even worse.  Please be aware this episode could potentially trigger some very raw emotions and reactions.  

Transcript

Raw,

Uncut,

And unapologetic.

Welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness with your hosts John McCaskill and Will Schneider.

Here we focus on helping men and those with men in their lives solve some of life's complex challenges through understanding the practices of mindfulness and how they can help.

Each episode is in an environment free of judgment and criticism with a focus on authenticity and inner peace.

Let's dig in.

Here's food for thought.

When boys and men are unhappy with their bodies,

Their quality of life is affected just as much as girls and women who experience body image issues.

The idea that boys and men are not concerned by their appearance isn't only untrue,

But being so is becoming more common.

According to the Australian Psychological Society,

Research has shown that the number of men experiencing body image dissatisfaction has tripled from 15% to 45% in the last 25 years.

Body dissatisfaction or negative body image can often result in overwhelming feelings of disappointment,

Shame,

And guilt.

It can also lead to unhealthy behaviors such as fad dieting,

Disordered eating,

Exercise addiction,

Depression,

Steroid abuse,

And even suicide.

This is from the website for Eating Disorders Victoria.

Hello and welcome to Men Talking Mindfulness,

The show and the podcast.

We are so very thankful for you joining us for today's show.

Before we get any further,

For those who are joining us live,

I want to give a shout out to my fellow veterans for Veterans Day.

I'm so thankful for each and every one of you and for your families for your service and sacrifices.

I hope that you have a wonderful Veterans Day and weekend.

Now here on the show,

Men Talking Mindfulness,

Each week my cohost over there,

Will Schneider in New York City,

And I,

John McCaskill over here in Colorado Springs,

We work to break down and demystify an aspect of mindfulness and make it meaningful to you.

Today we're going to get into a sensitive topic.

We're going to be talking about body image and the way we view ourselves and how that is often distorted and how that distorted view of ourselves can lead to pain,

Depression,

And anxiety,

And it can hold us back from being so much more,

From doing so much more.

Though we will talk broadly about body image,

We're also going to get into specifically talking about men and how men deal with this.

As this is typically seen as something that affects females more than males,

And that is in fact true,

But it is still a problem for boys and men,

And we want to make sure that just because it's more prominent in females,

That doesn't make it not a problem for men and boys,

And we want to make sure that it is in fact addressed.

Why?

That was a mouthful.

Before we get any further in this,

I know Will has some announcements.

Will,

Brother,

Good to see you,

And over to you.

Thanks,

John.

Great to be here,

And thank you for your service.

It is Veterans Day coming up.

Veterans Day is today?

I'm sorry,

I haven't included it today.

And yesterday- That's November 11th.

Yesterday was the Marines' 247th birthday.

That's right.

Happy birthday to the Marines out there.

Yeah,

Dr.

T is a Marine,

My nephew,

Lots of Marines out there.

Thank you all for serving our country,

And thank you for being on the show today.

Just a few announcements.

Get on our YouTube,

Follow us on YouTube,

And subscribe,

And make sure you hit the bell to notify when we have new content coming out.

You can also,

There's an easy link now on YouTube,

Just at Men Talking Mindfulness,

Easy way to find us at Men Talking Mindfulness.

Two other things,

John,

This both are really exciting.

Save the date.

Our next in-person mindfulness adventure retreat will take place on May 18th to the 21st in 2023.

It's going to be here on the East Coast in upstate New York,

And we're in the,

I mean,

I literally just signed the paperwork today.

The check is in the mail.

So this is happening.

I actually went to visit the location this past weekend,

And man,

It's really the perfect place to let go of your responsibilities,

Detach from all the stress-inducing technology,

And immerse yourself in peace and serenity as we practice together.

So again,

Save the date.

That's May 18th to the 21st in 2023.

The space is going to be limited,

And we'll have all that information up and a place to book within the next few weeks,

Probably that first week in December.

And also,

Hey,

I'm offering a free meditation and breathwork class,

Just 30 minutes on Insight Timer every Wednesday at 6.

30 p.

M.

Eastern Time.

Just 30 minutes,

No experience necessary,

And you can drop in.

It's all on Insight Timer.

It's on my Instagram,

At Will Not Fear,

As a way to kind of get there,

Or if you already have an Insight Timer account,

You can just find me and then access that.

So it's a great way just to kind of hit reset in the middle of your week,

Drop into a meditation,

Maybe learn a little bit more about meditation,

Definitely learn a little bit more about breath.

But what will we do,

Jon,

To start the show?

We'll do our five breaths just to kind of chill out,

Relax the show.

I'm a little nervous about today and excited.

You too.

We're going to share some of our own shit today,

Our own stuff,

Our own body image stuff as a means to,

I don't know,

Create more awareness and help people become more aware of theirs for sure.

All right.

Well,

Let's take those breaths,

Everybody.

So we're just going to do five breaths.

You want to close the eyes,

Close the eyes,

Ground those feet might be helpful,

Or maybe put both hands on the steering wheel and just really begin to find that contact if you're driving and listening.

Let's exhale out the breath through the mouth like you're blowing out a candle.

Big,

Giant breath in.

And exhale out five,

Four,

A few more.

Begin now for five.

Out easy five.

Just a few more in.

Really try to fill a big belly breath at the bottom of where your belly is,

Middle of the chest,

Top of the chest.

Exhale and let it go softly.

Good.

And again in.

Exhale.

Last one,

Everybody.

Exhale out.

Just take a moment and just notice if that's changed anything,

Whether you're super amped up or anxious in some way and just notice,

Just notice.

And then make some movements and open your eyes,

Come back,

Make a little smile on your face,

Which is a good way to kind of up your dopamine levels and make you feel a little better about yourself.

But all right,

John,

Body image.

How do you see yourself?

Let's dive in.

Where would you like to start?

Well,

I think you're always the definition guy,

But this time I'm going to do the definition.

I want to jump on it.

Absolutely.

Let's start with that.

And I think the definition sets the foundation that we can build everything else off of.

So from the national eating disorder associations website,

Body image is defined as how you see yourself when you look in the mirror or when you picture yourself in your mind.

So it's not just what you see in the mirror.

It's also what you picture in your mind.

It encompasses what you believe about your own appearance,

Including your memories,

Assumptions and generalizations.

It also encompasses how you feel about your body,

Including not only your weight,

Because I know that's one that people automatically jump to,

Right?

But it also includes your shape and your height.

It also comes from how you sense and control your body as you move,

How you physically experience or feel in your body.

And then many of us internalize messages starting at a young age,

Which we're going to get into here.

I may actually tear up on this show because when we talk about how early this starts as a parent,

It absolutely breaks my heart how early this starts.

But having that healthy body image,

How important it is for mental wellbeing and then preventing eating disorders.

So that's the,

Again,

The definition and some encompassing parts from the national eating disorders association website.

So that's the foundation of our discussion today.

And again,

As I covered in the beginning,

We're going to cover this broadly,

But we're also going to delve into specifically for men or masculine types,

What this is,

How it affects us and how we can overcome it.

So let's talk about when it starts.

Well,

Since I just mentioned that,

And then our own personal struggles with this.

So in doing our research,

She says that negative body image can begin at a surprisingly early age.

According to 2020 research,

40 to 50%,

40 to 50% of first and second graders already don't like some aspect of their body.

And again,

Like I said before,

That hurts my heart as a mirror because I have a kindergartener five year old,

Five and a half.

She would definitely correct me in saying that because she's not five,

She's five and a half.

We went to a pumpkin patch the other day and you pay by the age,

Right?

And I paid for a five year old.

I said in front of her,

I was like,

Oh yeah,

She's five.

And she was like,

No,

Daddy,

I'm five and a half.

But that's neither here nor there.

So anyhow,

It starts very early.

Starts very early.

And because these negative self images potentially negative can start so early,

It is a critical time to be very aware of what you do as an adult,

As a parent and see how easily these young ones are influenced by their friends,

Their family and media.

But it's also that perfect time to really start providing that positive feedback,

Right?

Pulling them how wonderful they are,

Not just in how they look,

But in their hearts,

Their spirits and everything else.

And allow them to build that self confidence that is built on more than just image.

So that all said,

Let's talk about,

Let's get real raw,

Real fast.

I don't know,

Do you want to go fast or first?

What's the question?

What do we,

What do we,

Yeah,

I'll gladly go first.

What have some of our personal struggles with this been or what are they currently?

This brings up a lot for me.

So I have a story when I was 25,

26.

You know,

I was always like a really grown up,

Like I was just a skinny kid,

Like and people make fun of me for,

I just remember,

You know,

People call me a beanstalk and I just all bones and what,

Ass and elbows or something like that.

And I just was like,

Yeah,

I just,

I always literally would just picture myself.

I mean,

Like the reality was something different in my mind would just see this really skinny,

Skinny,

Skinny,

Skinny kid.

And you know,

I really started hitting the,

You know,

The weights and you know,

I mean,

I was lifting weights and doing,

You know,

Like all through college because I played basketball and I always thought I was really,

Really,

Really skinny in college and you know,

Maybe I wasn't,

But it wasn't until I was like 25 or 26 that I really started getting to the gym more often.

And I was like,

Where I kind of,

That's where my sport went or just like,

You know,

That was just kind of what I did.

I just go to the gym after work like,

You know,

Four or five times a week and I was even benching like 225 pounds,

Like 10 times or like a couple sets.

Like that's a lot of weight.

I mean,

Especially 10 reps.

I mean,

So,

But still I would just be,

I thought I was always really skinny and really scrawny.

And then I remember,

I don't know if one of my,

One of my friend's girlfriend's was visiting or something like that.

And she said something like,

Like,

Wow,

You got,

You're really jacked.

And I was like,

What?

I thought she was like making fun of me.

You know what I mean?

It's like,

Oh yeah,

I'm just skinny.

Thanks for making fun of me.

It's like,

You know,

Fuck off,

You know,

Like,

Cause I was getting it kind of my whole life.

And she's like,

No,

Like,

You know,

You really got some serious muscles.

I'm like,

Really?

And then I had a few other people kind of share that with me and then it was just like literally in that moment,

Like I just saw myself differently.

It just like the reality just shifted like so quickly.

And then,

I mean,

Then it became like,

Not negative.

And it was like,

Then like a year later,

I'd be still at the gym.

And I remember asking my roommate at the time,

I was like,

You know what?

When I'm at the gym,

Mike,

I was like,

I don't want you to call me Bill.

That's what,

That was my name back then,

Bill.

I want you to call me FJ.

He's like,

FJ?

I'm like,

Yeah.

I know where this is going.

I was just fucking jacked,

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we all got a big laugh out of it as a big joke amongst our,

You know,

Our friends.

But like,

You know,

That's how it went the opposite direction.

Not like I was like,

You know,

But I just,

It was just really fascinating to like kind of flip that script.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean,

It flipped the script.

Like hearing from someone else that you were fucking jacked,

That changed your image in your mind of what you look like.

But what did it do to like further propagate the need to look like that,

Right?

Now you are looking that way.

And someone comes up to you like,

They feed that fire.

They feed that ego.

Like,

Hey,

You know what?

I heard that I am looking good.

So now I need to maintain this.

Which is great to hear that about yourself and change that body image.

But what does that do?

So that's another topic.

And I'll get into my personal struggles here shortly.

But that's another side of things is how we say something to someone if they are dieting,

If they are working out.

If we say,

Oh,

Wow,

You look great.

You look like you've lost a lot of weight.

What does that say?

Right?

So you're fat ass before.

I mean,

What is that's terrible,

Right?

So and for someone who is working out,

If we tell them,

Hey,

You look so much more jacked,

You look so much better,

Stronger,

What does that do?

And I'm not looking for you to answer that.

I'm just saying for a topic for consideration for our audience to think about.

And yeah,

If you have an answer for that.

No,

Like,

I mean,

I definitely,

You know,

I gotta say,

Like,

As soon as like,

You're like,

Hey,

Let's do an episode of body image.

Like,

Oh,

My God.

It's like,

You know,

So that moment,

Like,

And I started seeing myself differently in a mirror and I've like,

I gotta say,

I'm lucky with,

You know,

My metabolism,

My genetics,

But I've kind of built a life around health and staying healthy and like maintaining a certain,

You know,

Physique,

To be honest,

In some ways,

Like,

You know,

An external physique.

But I know like,

But when I,

But in order to make do that,

Like,

I need to put the work in so like,

It actually has a natural health and I feel good better about myself when I'm,

You know,

I've never really had,

You know,

A belly or never really got fat.

Like,

I think the most I ever weighed was like 212 pounds or something like that.

And when I got out of my senior year in college and drank the last month,

You know,

Before I left or something like that,

I really put on some weight.

But it's like,

You know,

I think it's a good thing for me,

You know,

To just kind of be able to go to the mirror and be like,

Oh,

Okay,

Looking good,

Looking good.

But it does like,

You know,

I definitely have a,

You know,

I wouldn't say maybe a healthy obsession around it in some ways,

But it's like,

You know,

Making sure,

You know,

My core looks still,

You know,

Chiseled a little bit,

Even though,

You know,

I'll be 50 next month,

Which blows my mind.

And you know,

So I think it's been a gift and a curse because I definitely check myself in the mirror way too much.

I have a big,

Huge mirror in my apartment.

But yeah,

Go ahead.

And that's,

I'm glad you said it's kind of been that blessing and a curse because I want to acknowledge that,

That working out,

You know,

Getting stronger,

Eating better,

So that you can feel better in your skin is not necessarily a bad thing,

Right?

I don't want to say,

Hey,

Going to the gym or eating clean is a bad thing.

Obviously,

That's not what we believe.

But we've covered staying healthy on the show.

We've covered eating healthy on the show.

And the benefits that come from that,

And the benefits that come from that,

That's what I that's what I want to focus on.

The benefits that we mentioned are not looking good in the mirror,

Right?

The benefits are not being able to jack a whole lot of steel in the gym.

It's the fact that you feel better,

The fact that you feel better in your skin,

The fact that you literally are living a happier,

Healthier lifestyle.

The flip side of that,

Where it becomes dangerous is when it becomes an obsession.

Yeah,

Right,

An obsession.

So that's what then that's what we want to talk about is that obsession and how to prevent it from becoming an obsession,

First of all.

And then if it has become an obsession,

We want to talk about how to get out of that.

That session that action essentially is what it is.

So yeah,

Man,

I'm sorry,

I cut you off.

So coming down to it,

Anything else?

No,

Not at all.

I mean,

I think at an early age,

I had an obsession with my hair.

I still do have a little bit too much of an association about my hair.

And I remember combing my hair as a kid and like I could try to keep it long on my parents.

And then you got to get your hair,

Your hair is too long.

But then I hit like,

I remember getting my first like handful of hair in the shower and I was like 26 or 27.

I was like,

Oh,

No,

I'm not losing my hair.

And then like later on,

Because I really didn't want to lose my hair.

I mean,

Here's like an admission,

Like I actually went on Propecia when I was like 30,

I don't know,

33,

34,

Something like that for a few years and it worked,

It really,

Really worked.

Because I have just a little note about the genetics of male pattern baldness.

It follows your mother's genes,

Her family genes.

So my mom's dad was bald and I have two brothers,

Like one brother,

My youngest brother,

He's a complete baller,

Just shaved his head now.

And my older brother is like,

He's fighting the good fight,

But you know,

Losing madly and wearing hats and I could see he's conscious about it.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

Being bald,

Right?

So we've talked about that the way that you see yourself,

Right?

And again,

We started the show off with talking about size,

Shape,

Weight,

Height,

But it also you're talking about another one.

And why is being bald seen as a negative thing,

Right?

It's against society that has said that being bald is a negative thing.

It's not.

I know plenty of bald guys that are some of the best guys I know.

60% of the population jump.

Yeah.

When you reach 60,

It's a majority.

So it should be like,

Oh yeah,

It's like everything is cool.

Like,

Hey,

I'm bald too.

It's a part of life.

But that was your perception that you wanted to keep your hair because it was part of your identity and you felt that losing your hair and being bald,

Or at least this is how you felt.

I'm not saying this is how you feel.

And don't let me put words in your mouth here,

But it sounds as though that that was your perception is that being bald was not where you wanted to go because being bald was seen as old or weak or some other unattractive or something like that.

That's right.

I don't like that's like,

It just did not a place that I wanted to go.

And if I had an option to fix it,

Fix it.

And it did.

I mean,

It was like,

It really,

Really worked.

And I think it's,

I don't know.

But if it hadn't,

You would have been fine.

I would have been fine.

I mean,

I think I would have been,

I don't know.

I mean,

I don't know what it's like to go down that path because I haven't had that problem.

I'm still losing some hair now.

And I'm just like,

When is this all going to go away?

But I don't know.

It's been totally strong for a long time.

So I don't know,

Slowly over time.

But yeah,

That's just a couple of things with me that really,

My teeth,

I had my teeth knocked out.

I just like,

My one front tooth knocked out.

So I really look at,

You know,

Watch the,

You know,

My smile I'm conscious of.

So you know,

Which is stupid,

You know,

Like,

I mean,

Some people don't even notice that there's a,

That there's like a slight defect or that's even a judgment,

Right?

So,

Yeah,

So that's like,

Yeah,

So I mean,

I definitely have,

I got some shit,

Jon,

Around this.

Yeah,

Sure.

You are challenged by this still,

Right?

Yeah.

And I don't say that as,

Well,

Look at me.

I'm not challenged,

But you are.

Well,

Let's talk about that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

Even here,

We're on the screen right now.

I'm like,

You know,

I mean,

Literally,

I'll be like,

Oh,

What's,

How's my hair doing?

You know,

I know,

I know.

It's like,

It's a weird kind of session sometimes and it's just like,

I don't know how to let go of it in some ways.

So maybe that's what we're going to talk about.

We're going to talk about it.

Let's do that.

Well,

I mean,

So again,

You know,

As the show starts off,

You know,

Every episode is one free of judgment and we're here to discuss that and there's no judgment from me for the way that you feel and hopefully the other side of that coin is true and I know that it is.

There's not going to be any judgment from you for what I'm going to delve into here because,

Because I,

I too am challenged by this.

I would say that I still am challenged by some level of,

Um,

Audio image,

Uh,

Dysmorphia,

Um,

Or,

Or,

Or some,

Some level of dissatisfaction with my body and coming back to when it starts,

It did start young.

I remember,

You know,

Um,

Watching some show,

I think it was actually called hero.

It started with that song.

Like I need a hero.

There was,

There was,

Yes,

I finally sang on the show.

There it is.

Now you,

Now you understand why I don't sing more often on the shows because I've got a terrible singing voice.

Uh,

But,

Oh man.

So that's negative image too is my,

Is my voice.

So anyhow,

Obviously I am struggled,

But I watched the show and there was this guy that was a hero on the show and he was,

He was very fit,

Very good looking.

And I was,

I was like,

I don't know,

10 years old watching this show.

And I remember after the show,

Going back into my room and working out at 10 years old and knocking out sit ups and pushups until I just couldn't move anymore because I wanted to be jacked like him at 10.

I wanted to be what Hollywood portrayed as,

As manly.

Um,

And then,

You know,

Fast forward into my high school years,

I'm a track and cross country runner where it pays to be skinny,

Right?

It pays to be light.

So I wanted to be light.

So I watched what I ate and,

And then we would be running on the track and the football team would be there and they'd be like,

Whoa,

Look at all these bird chested kids.

So you're not,

You're not even a bird chest.

Right.

Um,

So,

So then I was struggling with this because I was like,

Okay,

Well I want to be skinny for track and cross country,

But I also want to be attractive for the,

For the ladies and I don't want to be called bird chest.

So you know,

I,

I would work out in the gym like you did,

You know,

Trying to get stronger,

Which didn't help my running.

So it was,

It was a weird kind of struggle there.

And then I fast forward even further into,

Into my time in the,

In the seal teams.

And I remember being called the skinny fat guy because I was skinny,

But I carried fat around and,

And I was like,

I'm not going to be that skinny fat guy and I'm definitely not going to be a bird chest anymore.

So I'd go and hit the gym to the,

Again,

To the point of obsession.

And when I would age with this,

John,

Sorry,

I know it's like,

Uh,

No,

Yeah,

Probably mid twenties.

And then again,

Again,

Uh,

It happened when I was like 35,

36,

37.

You know,

Those are times that I was in the best shape of my life,

Or at least that's how I perceive myself.

But here's,

Here's where things get scary,

Right?

Is that when I was stronger and I,

And I actually looked that way,

I was looked at differently and not,

Not only by women,

I mean,

That was nice to be looked at differently by women,

But also by my fellow men.

Like they treated me differently.

They treated me with more reverence.

When you had like a bigger,

Like my shoulders were bigger,

My body bigger.

And my waist was smaller,

You know,

When I was,

When I was quote unquote ripped.

Right.

Yeah.

And,

Uh,

You know,

Fast forward to here,

I am now 45.

Can you give us example,

Sorry,

John,

Before we go to the 45 of,

Of,

Of like what the,

How they would treat you,

The words they would say,

Or,

You know what I mean?

Like similar to what you said is that,

Um,

You know,

People would come up to me like,

Whoa,

Man,

Your shoulders are huge or wow,

Man,

Your,

Your chest is looking great.

Your chisel,

That kind of,

That kind of shit,

Which feeds your ego,

Right?

You're like,

Oh yeah.

And now you're going to pop your chest out and you're going to feel better.

And you probably,

Because you're going to,

You feel better,

Or at least you're,

You're getting this false feed into your ego.

Then you walk around differently.

People,

They just act differently around you.

So there's,

There's a danger that we are propagating this in society,

Not just in Hollywood,

Not just on social media,

Which we're going to talk about here.

Uh,

But there,

There is a propagation in the words that we use coming back to the,

You know,

Saying,

Hey,

Oh,

You look great.

You have you lost weight?

That kind of thing.

But the words that we use,

The way that we act around people,

Um,

It it's,

It's empowering,

And it can feel good,

But it's also dangerous.

It's a double edged sword.

Which is a lot of judgment in those statements.

Think about it.

It's like,

Oh,

Hey,

You look so good.

Whereas like,

Uh,

You know,

I mean,

Yeah,

Right.

Right.

Or like,

Look how big your shoulders are.

It's like,

Oh,

Well you noticed that my shoulders weren't as big last time.

So it's immediately like,

So you start comparing with it.

They're comparing you or like saying the statement.

And I'd imagine like you're comparing yourself to,

You know,

Who you were a year ago or something like that.

You're earlier or something,

But yeah,

Right.

So that's 45.

Sorry.

So I didn't mean to cut you off,

But all good,

Man.

There's going to be a lot of back and forth here.

So I appreciate it.

So I mean,

Okay.

So here I am 45 today and I'm doing this show as I'm currently dieting.

I am literally dieting right now.

So I've got some eggs over here to eat for later today.

I'm doing the Bulletproof coffee in the morning.

I'm trying to do a keto diet and I'm primarily doing that so that I can feel better right physically and and like have the energy to play around with my kids because I have found that when I am a little bit lighter,

I have more energy to get up and play with the kids and carry myself through the day,

Blah,

Blah,

Blah.

But it's not an obsession.

Right.

And I'm doing it for what I believe to be the right reasons.

But I will I will say,

Yeah,

Sure.

I would like to look better in the mirror.

Not that I look bad,

But there is in my mind sometimes I see something in the mirror.

I'm like,

Oh,

You know,

I want to adjust that.

I want to adjust this.

But that is how I perceive myself.

If I were to look at myself at or through somebody else's eyes,

I wouldn't see that.

We are our worst critics,

Not in just the things that we do,

But also in the way that we see ourselves.

We are our worst critics.

So we we need to be very careful in what we're telling ourselves.

We talked about negative self-talk before and then the positive self-talk and how powerful that is.

We need to be very careful when we look in the mirror,

Highlight the positive attributes,

Because a lot of the time those negative attributes that we see aren't real.

They're not real.

We're seeing a distorted image.

And that's what body dysmorphia is.

And we're going to come through the different types of this negative body self-image that body dysmorphia,

Muscle dysmorphia,

Anorexia,

Bigorexia,

Which bigorexia,

Bigorexia,

They call it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're going to talk about that.

We're going to talk about how we truly know how we really look,

Not just how we perceive ourselves.

And then as I'm dieting right now,

I have to be very careful in how I phrase that for my kids.

Right.

They see that I'm not eating the candy.

They see that I'm not eating the ice cream that they,

Because I,

You know,

Going to going on an ice cream date with daddy has been a thing.

And now I'm not doing that.

Now I can still take them to ice cream.

But then when they see that I'm not eating,

Then they're going to ask questions.

I'm like,

Well,

I don't want to be fat.

Well,

No,

Of course not.

That's not how I phrase it.

I want to be healthier.

But then what am I,

If I say that even,

What am I telling my kids?

Well,

The ice cream that you're eating is not healthy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a slippery slope.

It's a very slippery slope.

So even like even Dutch John,

Just even saying that you're on a diet,

You know,

Might even,

I mean,

It sounds like to me like there's something wrong with you or like you feel like there's something wrong with yourself is what I mean.

Right.

I mean,

That's even just a—and I just think about how that word has just been,

You know,

Has been totally fucked society in some ways.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

The whole diet,

I'm on a diet or diet pills or,

You know,

It's like versus I'm what would be something—I mean,

So in this,

You know,

So what would be something that you could have it more of a positive and affirming lifestyle change,

You know what I mean?

Or like a way that you could speak to yourself instead of on a diet which means like,

Oh,

I have all these things wrong on me so I need to change it in the form of a framing in the diet versus like you want to be healthier or something,

You know what I mean?

So what I'm trying to tell my kids is that the ice cream causes—and I nerd out with them and I try to talk to them as I don't try to dumb language down too much for them because they're actually a lot smarter.

Kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for.

So I tell them,

I'm like,

Hey,

Well,

The ice cream causes my energy to go really high and then I get really low and I might be able to play for 10 minutes but then I need to rest.

But if I don't eat the ice cream,

I can play for a few hours and like I actually have experienced that.

I've experienced super high energy for just a very short period of time with the kids and then they're like,

Well,

You only play with us for 10 minutes.

Well,

Because I'm eating crap.

So now they start to see that I'm doing it for the right reasons and it's not just to look good in the mirror and that kind of thing.

And it's also helping them understand sugar in some ways because then maybe they'll take a pause and be like,

Oh,

Maybe I shouldn't have that ice cream and a lollipop because this happened to daddy so it might happen to me.

So I mean that's like actually a great way of… It does happen with the kids.

They're that much more sensitive to those spikes and when they come out of that spike,

It is hell on wheels,

Man,

When those kids come out of that.

So it's a lesson that they need to learn early and I will admit that I do give my kids treats for things and I know that's been boo-booed on as far as a parenting tool.

But sometimes when you're desperate,

You pull out the big guns.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Sometimes sugar is… Yeah,

It's an easy one.

I mean that's why Molly Carmel in our whole thing about breaking up with sugar,

She talked about how her mom had kind of just whenever she wanted her to do something,

She's like,

Oh,

Here have some candy,

Have a treat,

Da-da-da.

And that again,

Talking about slippery slopes,

That's a slippery slope because it may help in the moment,

Right?

You get your kid to do what you want your kid to do.

But two hours later,

They're coming off of a sugar high.

One,

The sugar high is also hell to deal with like they were just running around the house like crazy.

And then them crashing off of that is also hell.

So you're creating a reward system too.

You know,

If you're doing that,

It's like,

So therefore it's just like Pavlov.

It's like,

Oh,

Well,

Or maybe could I have a candy if I'm really good or if I make my wish,

Which has been proven that extrinsic motivation only works for so long and only in certain environments.

In other ways and at other times,

It's actually detrimental.

But that's a whole other show.

We're now going down a rabbit hole.

No,

That's okay.

Yeah.

So let's talk about what drives this self image,

The negative side of things.

So I know that if I got on,

I've cut myself off of Instagram for my own personal reasons.

But I also remember when I was on Instagram,

A lot of the stuff that's on there is people who are working out to obsession.

They have like 3% body fat.

They're very lean or they're very muscular or for the females,

They're in their bathing suits and they're perfect,

Quote unquote perfect.

So I think Instagram in particular out of the social medias is a dangerous one,

Especially if you look at it and you accept that as reality.

A lot of the time,

The stuff that we see on social media is crap.

It's doctored,

They're photoshopped.

And so I think social media is a big one.

As I talked about before,

The TV shows that used to drive me to work out to obsession as a 10 year old.

So movies,

Hollywood is one that's showing what manly should be or what the perfect woman should look like.

I'll tell you,

Pornography.

Pornography is one that will drive people to think that their body should be a certain way.

Well,

For men,

Jon,

One of the things that as I'm doing the research is genitalia.

Yes,

Absolutely.

Is my balls big enough?

Are my penis big enough?

You know what I mean?

Like,

Does it look good or whatever?

And I was like,

Oh shit.

Like,

Okay,

That's a real thing too.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

I mean,

Yeah,

Let's not exclude.

We're talking about body image.

Let's not exclude those parts,

Right?

There is that.

And that's a huge part of what can drive our negative self image is stuff that we see on social media,

Stuff that we see in Hollywood,

Stuff that we see on magazines.

You go to the checkout line in the grocery store and like five of the 10 magazines are ways to lose weight,

Ways to lose weight in five days,

Ways to lose weight in diet,

Ways to pack on 10 extra pounds of muscle,

The other side of things,

Right?

I mean,

How about the pills,

Jon?

How about the pills to male enhancement,

Like make your penis bigger if you take these drills?

Yeah,

Right.

And I feel like all the things that you just mentioned,

Jon,

And then what marketing does and commercials and they just prey on that whole idea of not enough.

They just pull it.

They try to like… Money maker.

Yeah,

It's a huge money maker.

It's still a huge money maker.

It's going to continually be a big money maker as we move forward in the world and hopefully it will begin to shift because what's happening now and what's been happening for a long time is like this extrinsic validation,

Validation from the outside.

Therefore,

If I do these things,

Act like this and then begin to maybe get some feedback but like,

Oh,

Hey,

Your shoulders have gotten bigger or like your chest has gotten bigger.

It's like then you get that reward but then you're trapped.

You're trapped in like how do I – please tell me world how I look versus like coming from the inside and being comfortable with yourself and just being like,

Well,

This is how I – this is who I am.

One thing I've heard,

There's like the kind of maybe I love you self-talk.

It's like looking in the mirror.

This is really – I've heard this is anecdotal,

Not like – but just really accepting yourself,

Saying I love you.

Dr.

Rob Kelly talks about this.

He's saying I love you in the mirror and I love you.

Maybe it's I love my eyes or I love my face or like maybe those parts that you don't – that have been criticized and you have been critical of yourself and then just literally flipping the script,

Coming from the inside out and accepting yourself for who you are.

When you do that,

Jon,

Other people are going to accept you for who you are.

I think there's a certain energetic projection of insecurity that I mean people just can – maybe they're not even consciously picking up on it or – but they're attaching to it in some ways and then they're just reflecting back to you in some ways the insecurities that you already have on the inside in a lot of ways versus like taking time and really going in,

Going in and what – we'll talk about some other things that might work for you,

But like really later changing the mind.

The mind is plastic,

Which we talk about so much on the show that we can really begin to change our relationship to ourself,

Maybe just some through some positive affirmation,

Positive self-talk and then also maybe surrounding yourself with people that are supporting you and your goals and aren't so aesthetically judgmental of you and – Jon Foreman I like that,

Aesthetically judgmental.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

So real quick,

I want to come back to a couple of things that my mind jumped to while you were talking.

One,

For boys and young men,

Another one that really highlights to them that they should be a certain way is sports,

Right?

And we've talked about – Jon Foreman Oh,

Agility,

Yeah,

Ability.

Jon Foreman Yeah,

Agility and your ability and we talked about it,

Right?

When I was young,

I was a cross-country runner,

I needed to be a certain way.

When you were a basketball player,

You needed to be a certain way.

But in watching NFL and basketball,

NBA and you see these role models for these boys and they are all in incredibly good shape,

Right?

And that's what we see.

Jon Foreman And we're gifted athletes too in a lot of ways.

Jon Foreman We're inspiring ourselves to them.

Jon Foreman Yeah,

Exactly.

Jon Foreman But there's a reason they look that way,

Right?

That's their job.

That's their mission in life is to work out so that they can be super athletes on the football field,

On the basketball court,

Wherever that's – they are sinking,

I don't know how many hours a day into training.

Whereas the rest of us who are living as students in school or as grown adults working out in the career fields as parents,

We don't have that kind of time.

We shouldn't be as obsessed about looking that way as these sports stars are.

And they're also revered as heroes,

Right?

They are a super basketball player and we revere them as heroes.

And I've done that.

I still do that.

I think very highly of really good athletes.

But is it right,

Right?

And then,

You know,

This is not really tied to that same thing.

I guess it is in a way for the women walking through the mall.

I remember walking through the mall and,

You know,

I was a dirty little boy and I passed by Victoria's Secret and I was like,

Oh,

Wow,

Look at those beautiful women.

But Victoria's Secret models back in the late 90s,

They were – or early 90s,

They were super skinny,

Right?

And now what I love to see is that walking through the mall,

The models are way more realistic.

And they're beautiful.

They're beautiful women.

They've got beautiful bodies.

They're way more realistic.

I don't know if you've noticed that.

If you've been to a mall recently,

That's one thing that I will applaud some companies for doing is that they're getting more realistic in their portrayal of what beauty is.

And it's not all super skinny,

Super muscular.

You know,

If you're looking at some men,

It's real and there's beauty.

It's not the 1%.

It's not the athlete.

It's not the athlete that just like has incredible gifts and ability and usually has a body that kind of fulfills that role in a lot of ways that need to have that strong body that – in order to – whatever sport it is.

And then the other side with women is like that 1% of the 6-foot-1 absolutely chiseled jawline is beautiful,

Like perfect proportions and stuff or like perfect in the sense of like what the marketing and the media and the fashion and beauty industry wants us to aspire to because they – again,

They just pull those strings on our insecurities all the time.

So they hold up all these beautiful women.

So it's like,

Oh,

I need to be like that and therefore in order to do that,

I need to be doing these things.

It just really turns into a very toxic relationship to yourself and the world.

The other side of that is so like as a man passing by Victoria's Secret and all we see is skinny,

Skinny,

Skinny,

Then what does that tell us is that if we are not in a relationship with somebody who is perfect,

Then – Or hot.

Or hot,

Then we are failures.

And I say that and we both say that in quotes,

Right?

So there's double-edged there in their advertising.

So again,

That's just one example.

I do see – And it's another rabbit hole that – No,

No,

No.

It's okay.

As I walk,

There's just the vans,

The shoes,

The van shoes.

Yeah,

Yeah.

They just have like a very non-typical 90s kind of woman dressed.

I mean she's overweight.

She looks funny.

She's overweight.

I like her clothes.

She's wearing her shoes but it's just like – it's definitely a different way of marketing,

Definitely a different way of messaging.

Is she overweight though?

She is overweight.

Oh,

Yeah,

She's bigger.

She's definitely bigger.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah.

Okay.

So like physically overweight in that it could be detrimental to her health.

Yeah,

I mean I would – I mean not judging just medically.

It's not a healthy body.

It is a – in our society,

We're approaching 50% obesity now.

One in every two people is obese.

Like that's just stats.

So it's just like – I mean so I guess we need to market or whoever is selling whatever needs to market in that way.

I'm not a big fan of like us growing in obesity because what's going to – that's just – it's just not healthy for society.

It doesn't create healthy people.

It doesn't create the healthy mindset.

Again,

You don't have the energy in being able to do what it is you want to do there.

So let's come back,

Kind of roll back a little bit to what's causing this in boys.

So we talked about sports.

We talked about social media,

Magazines,

Pornography,

That kind of thing.

But I remember also coming back to my youth.

I was South African.

I am South African.

I was born in South Africa and came to the States when I was seven years old.

I experienced a lot of bullying for my accent,

Right?

But then I also experienced because I had a – I still have a big nose,

Quote,

Unquote,

Big nose.

Never thought that,

John,

By the way.

Never fucking thought that.

Yeah,

Well,

I've become comfortable with it in my more mature years.

But I remember being picked on like these – some kids called me Sam.

And it took me a while to get what they were talking about.

And they were talking about two-can Sam from the Fruit Loops,

Right?

And I go,

Because you have a big nose,

You're two-can Sam.

And so I was bullied about my nose.

So I had this negative self-image.

I was bullied essentially before by the football team calling me the bird-chested kid or we as the cross-country team were a bunch of bird-chested kids,

Bird-chested boys.

So there's a lot of bullying that leads to these negative self-images too.

And it's not just among young men.

We were talking about the movie Mean Girls before.

And as funny as that movie is,

There's a lot of truth in that,

Right?

For young women,

They are bullied.

Even though they may not perceive it as bullying,

Somebody might tell them that they're too fat or that they look a certain way in a certain outfit.

So there's that bullying on the playground.

There's a bullying in later years in sports.

There's bullying in the workplace,

Even today as grown adults.

There's bullying.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

We've got to really address the bullying.

I think we should do an episode on bullying.

No,

We will.

We definitely will.

Yeah.

We need to.

So there's that that can also cause that negative self-image.

And I want to make sure we address that.

We'll talk a little bit more about that.

Well,

I think it's interesting,

Jon,

That you bring up your nose.

And I've never thought of anything,

You know,

Whatever.

But it's like,

It stayed with you.

Like from those early days,

You probably still think you have a bit of a big nose.

From something that was drilled.

I mean,

Do you?

Like,

Sometimes you just turn over it?

Well,

I mean,

It's still a complete transparency.

So I got in,

I did get in a lot of fights growing up because I was picked on and,

You know,

I was picked on,

But I also started to develop and I was able to defend myself.

But in,

Let's see,

My sophomore year,

I got into a couple of fights and had my nose broken twice.

And so it wasn't only big,

But it was also crooked,

Right?

And so later in the Navy,

I was having trouble sleeping and they were like,

Oh,

It's because you have a deviated septum.

We need to get in there and fix that.

And they're like,

So this is,

This is,

Makes it that much worse.

The doctor's like,

And you have this giant,

Remember this doctor had zero bedside manner.

He's like,

And you have this giant hump on your nose.

Do you want us to go ahead and fix that for you?

And I did.

I had them while it,

While they were in there fixing my deviated septum,

Which I don't know if you've ever seen that surgery.

It's crazy.

They basically snip the bottom right here and then they lift your entire nose up onto your forehead.

It's pretty gnarly.

But while they're exposed to bone,

I guess,

So they take away the flesh,

Which is,

Which is rectile.

Remember it's rectile.

That's right.

That's right.

It's rectile tissue from our episode with James Nestor on breath.

So they went in there and they actually shaved it down.

So that's where my insecurity about my nose carried forward into my adult years.

And I've had it fixed.

It's straightened now and it's less of a hump.

And a lot of that hump came,

On my nose came from it being broken,

But it was larger before.

But yeah,

There I was,

I mean,

Insecure about my nose size because of the bullying.

Because of the bullying.

Right,

Right,

Right.

Thanks for sharing.

Yeah,

Man.

And it was reinforced,

You know,

They kept calling it,

Kept calling it and then you keep questioning.

Yeah,

As a child,

Yes,

But also,

You know,

As an adult or somebody can,

You know,

In our adult years just bring up something that we can just be obsessing over our mind and therefore we go into the mirror and we're like picking ourselves apart.

And again,

It's like,

And it's just,

It's just a really,

You know,

A poor psychological loop obsession.

For sure.

That really,

That really,

Yeah.

Let's talk about that,

That psychological side,

That the stigma,

Right?

And specifically for men.

I want to highlight something that we did in our research.

According to the Newport Institute,

Men are less likely than women to talk about this kind of thing,

To get help for these issues.

If they do,

In fact,

Have an eating disorder,

Anorexia,

Bigorexia,

Megaraxia,

Whatever it may be,

They're less likely to talk about it and admit to their friends that they're struggling with it.

And while the body positivity movement among women has grown substantially over the last decade,

Male body positivity isn't focused on nearly as much.

Therefore,

The stigma around male body image issues often prevents young men.

I would just say men,

Period,

But it says young men,

This quote from the Newport Institute,

From speaking honestly about their experiences and seeking treatment for related mental health challenges.

Why is that?

Why is that?

I think a lot of it comes from the same things we've talked about on past episodes,

Even more specifically the masculinity kind of sub-series that we have,

That masculinity,

Confined masculinity.

You know,

When we were talking to Ed Fraunheim in his book with Ed Adams,

Where they talk about reinventing masculinity,

And then they define confined masculinity as really sticking to three main areas of focus.

The provider,

The protector,

And the conqueror.

Well,

The provider looks a certain way,

The protector looks a certain way,

And the conqueror looks a certain way.

And they all have a lot of common maladies as far as how they look.

And also,

They all behave the same way too,

In the sense like there's no problem.

Don't ask for help.

I have no emotions.

You know what I mean?

And just imagine if you come out and you would come out as a man and speak about your body dysmorphia or something like that,

What would you immediately be thought of as a woman,

Wouldn't you?

In some ways,

Right?

As weak or as a woman.

Yeah,

Here's the thing.

We'll have to take that even one step further.

When we talked about doing this episode,

And I thought about admitting that I've got some of these challenges still to this day,

And the fact that we're talking about it live right here,

Even in the back of my mind,

As we're talking about it,

I'm like,

Oh my gosh,

People who watch that,

People who watch this are going to perceive me as weak.

That's why it's there.

It's that bravado,

That false bravado.

Hey,

Look,

Look at me.

All right,

I'm going to pop my chest out right now and my shoulders are going to look bigger.

It's ridiculous,

But that's what we tell ourselves is that we as men have to fit a certain mold.

Even right here in doing this show on this topic with all the work that we've done in these areas,

It's still there.

Yeah,

But I got to say,

The work that we've done and just talking about it,

John,

There's also a level of freedom that comes too.

There's a certain level.

I'm like,

Oh my God,

Let's … I have images of some of the guys and our retreats are for men and women,

But they'll be saying something about me that we might have said in the show.

It's just like,

Ugh.

But there's something like,

Fuck it,

Man.

Just let it go.

Let it out there.

Authenticity and vulnerability are the way,

John,

Is how I think that we're showing,

Teaching,

But also experiencing how to be more of a true person and also to be really like the authentic man,

Like the one that really … It's like,

I mean,

Talk about just fuck it,

Just to hold that attitude right there and it's just like in the healthier way of living.

It is.

It's obviously a much healthier.

It's very freeing,

Very,

Very,

Very,

Very freeing.

So yeah,

But keep going,

John.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Well,

Okay,

Let's talk about some of these associated disorders,

Right?

Okay,

So it can be associated with eating disorders and or the dysmorpias that we talked about,

Which we all know that those,

Both the dysmorpias and the eating disorders,

Which are quite often linked,

They're very real.

I don't want to minimize those in any shape,

Form,

Or fashion,

But they are also terribly unhealthy physically as far as what's going on biologically in your body.

I mean,

If you're not eating or if you're eating too much,

Trying to get big is the other side of that dysmorphia,

That's terribly unhealthy on your digestive system biologically.

It's also terribly unhealthy mentally,

Emotionally.

And this often is led,

A lot of these disorders are anxiety disorders,

Anxiety of wanting to fit in,

Wanting to be liked,

Wanting to be revered.

And so a lot of that comes from the fear of not fitting in,

The fear of not being liked,

The fear of not being revered,

And that's the anxiety.

So they truly are anxiety disorders.

And we're going to talk about,

Or some of them are,

I want to talk about how to treat that later.

It also leads to depression,

John,

It leads to isolation,

You know what I mean?

It could just keep you locked in,

It could keep you antisocial,

All these different just horrible affects of the mental game,

Of again that extrinsic like,

Oh,

I'm not like a super athlete or I don't have the perfect body that I see in men's health all the time.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani It's the feeling of lust then.

Dr.

Jeff Altman Yeah,

Exactly.

I'm not enough.

I'm not enough.

It just comes back to that basic I'm not enough,

I'm not enough,

But I will be enough if I go on this diet or if I do this or develop this bicep or this whatever kind of or have this chin or maybe,

You know,

They've also,

You know,

John,

We in this research talked about how much plastic surgery has done now on men and it's really escalated what I thought was interesting in the last 25 years,

Right?

That body dysmorphia amongst men has really rapidly escalated.

And just think about how is that,

How does that,

I know it's a correlation,

But how is that parallel with the amount of media that's been continually shoved in our face,

Right?

Because of the internet,

Like 25 years ago,

What would that,

What would that,

You know,

So that's when the internet started like in 94,

93 in that kind of area.

It was very,

You know,

It was just a way of sharing information but then Dr.

Justin Marchegiani I remember back then that's when you were connected to the phone and it took like 25 minutes to download like one image,

Dial up one line at a time,

Right?

Since then,

You know,

You get an image instantly on your phone,

You get like thousands of images thrown at you through Instagram or Facebook or YouTube and that,

You know,

And now this,

All these different social medias have a way of like feeding you more and more the algorithms,

Hey,

If you look at one picture of a guy working out in the gym now,

Instagram is gonna be like,

Oh,

Since you like this,

I'll show you 1 billion pictures of men who are in good shape.

That fucking algorithm.

Yeah,

The algorithms are terrible.

They just feed it.

They feed it.

I mean,

Yes.

I'm locked in cat videos right now,

John.

Surfing videos are awesome.

That's a good one.

Yeah,

Cat videos,

Surfing videos are really good.

I'm doing like hustle porn kind of like,

You know what I mean?

Like people work out shit,

You know what I mean?

I get it.

I get it.

So I'm in a good kind of groove right now and I gotta remember not to deviate.

That's right.

You know,

Keep positive messaging.

Yeah.

Positive messaging.

Hey,

That's a tip.

That's a tip,

Right?

So if you do have the algorithm accidentally locked in because you clicked one time on a guy or a gal that looked like they were in really good shape or what you perceive as good shape and now Instagram or whatever social media is that you're using is now feeding you tons and tons of that,

You can click on it and say,

See less like this,

See less like this,

And actually change the algorithm.

But I want to come back to those,

You know,

What you were talking about,

What it causes,

What it can lead to,

And I want to read a very disturbing or several very disturbing stats here.

Social counseling or therapeutic interventions have been shown to successfully help people overcome BDD and that's body dysmorphia disorder,

Body dysmorphia disorder.

However,

Many people with body dysmorphic disorders do not receive counseling and instead undergo procedures.

You talked about this just a second ago to alter their appearance.

One study found that more than 75% of people with BDD seek surgical and dermatological treatment.

I just talked about me.

I got my nose fixed.

When I had the opportunity to do it,

I did it and I'm one of those percentage and more than 65% of those people received the treatment they initially sought.

Now coming further,

The risk of suicidal thoughts or behaviors associated with some form of body dysmorphia,

Whether that's,

You know,

Seeing yourself as too fat,

Too skinny,

Not muscular enough,

Too short,

Too tall,

Whatever the case may be.

The risk of suicidal thoughts is higher among those.

One study found that nearly 80% of men with BDD had contemplated suicide and nearly 25% had attempted it.

Twenty-five percent of those who are diagnosed with some form of body dysmorphia,

Body dysmorphic disorder attempt suicide.

Now that's alarming.

So we need to change this.

We need to change this.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's amazing.

What are some of those things,

John?

I mean we can go into changing in a second.

I would like to before we can go into prevention.

One thing I would actually like while we're kind of on this BDD,

The body dysmorphia disorder,

Is the – I don't know if it's bigorexia or bigorexia,

Megorexia is the same word.

I have it somewhere.

I can't see where I got that.

I forget how it's actually pronounced,

But this is a word that both of you and I learned yesterday.

Yeah.

So you got body dysmorphic disorder is typically when people want to be skinnier,

Smaller,

Lose the fat.

They see themselves as large.

They see themselves as fat in the mirror.

The other side of that is the muscle dysmorphic disorder.

That's where they see themselves as too skinny,

Right?

And that's the bigorexia or the megorexia.

Yeah.

Let me actually – let me read this one,

John.

This is from Wikipedia,

Right?

So it's under the umbrella or it's not the umbrella.

It's muscle dysmorphia,

Right?

So muscle dysmorphia is a subtype of the obsessive mental disorder,

Body dysmorphic disorder,

But it's also – but it is often also grouped with eating disorders.

In muscle dysmorphia,

Which is sometimes called bigorexia,

Megorexia or reverse anorexia,

The delusion or exaggerated belief is that one's own body is too small,

Too skinny,

Insufficiently muscular or insufficiently lean,

Although in most cases,

The individual's body is normal or even exceptionally large and muscular already.

Muscle dysmorphia affects mostly men,

Particularly those involved in sports where body size or weight are competitive factors,

Becoming rationalizing the gains of muscle to become leaner.

The quest to seemingly fix one's body consumes an ordinate time,

Attention and resources as on exercise routines,

Dietary regimens and nutritional supplementations,

While the use of anabolic steroids is also common.

Other body dysmorphic preoccupations that are not muscle dysmorphic are usually present as well.

So that's like – I mean that's just a real – that's like the guys that are at the gym always kind of checking out their muscles and doing this and always comparing themselves to Arnold Schwarzenegger or Lou Ferrigno,

The Hulk,

Right?

You know what I mean?

And just like which are again,

They're that 1%.

Those are like – I mean not the best word to use right now but freaks.

Those are the people that have just been gifted with this and maybe start working on it.

Yeah,

Go ahead.

That was literally what they did for a living,

Right?

Arnold Schwarzenegger,

I think he used to work – when he came to this country,

He worked for eight hours a day in construction.

Then he worked in the gym for eight hours a day.

Then he did acting for – acting lessons for not enough hours a day because his acting was terrible initially.

But he like – he obsessed about this.

I would argue that a lot of those people who are highly,

Highly successful in the bodybuilding arena have these challenges too and I don't want to speak negatively about them but they and we – because here we are,

Me and Will are admitting on this show that we have challenges with it.

But I would argue that a lot of these stats that we're reading and reporting,

They're probably underreported.

I would say that – For men,

I feel like everything – so much of men's stuff is underreported because nobody's going to admit there's a problem.

Yeah,

I'm perfectly happy in my skin.

Yeah,

Perfectly happy.

Yeah,

In the back of their minds,

They're like,

I could definitely lose some fat.

I could gain some muscle.

Or they're on antidepressants or drinking or whatever,

Consuming some sort of substance to make themselves feel better or something.

Yeah,

Crazy.

Before we get into the what can prevent this and then ultimately what can heal it because I know we're – people who are tuning into this show,

They're like,

Oh,

Well,

Normally this show is an hour long but today,

We're going to run a little bit longer because Will and I really feel passionately about this.

But I want to touch on what this prevents us from doing,

Right?

If we look in the mirror and we see something that others don't,

Like we see ourselves negatively when others see us in a completely different light,

We look in pictures and everyone's like,

Oh,

My gosh,

You guys look so great.

And all we see is,

Oh,

Man,

Look at my belly or whatever the case may be.

We see something and we look at it in a not just a negative light but a completely distorted light.

What does that prevent us from doing?

Does it prevent us from being bold enough to like start a new relationship,

Whether that's a relationship with a friend or with a romantic relationship?

Because you're like,

Oh,

Well,

There's no way he or she is going to like me because I am not good enough because I am not big enough because I'm not small enough.

I'm not enough.

Just not enough.

I'm not enough.

You put all the bullshit after that.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

And what does it do?

Yeah.

It works against you.

It's just like,

Oh,

I'm not going to go out.

I'm not going to do this.

I'm not going to go up for that promotion because I'm not enough.

It's not just psychologically you're thinking,

Well,

I'm not good enough professionally.

But you're like,

Well,

I'm not enough.

So my self-esteem is actually affected.

So it really prevents us from living the best lives because we're falsely feeding ourselves this false image,

Or rather we are feeding ourselves this false image of ourselves.

And it keeps us,

It's confined.

Going back to combine masculinity,

It's confining us to be much less than what you're fully capable of being.

And again,

I say that as I admit that I have my own challenges with this,

But as I journal and I write the positive stuff about myself,

As I look in the mirror and I know that some of the negative things that I say about myself are in fact distortions.

I know that.

Like cognitively,

I know that.

And I can reframe it and say it differently or counter it.

That's really helping.

And we'll get into that here shortly.

But it does.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Well,

It's also you're doing the work,

John.

Yeah,

You're doing the work.

You're doing work.

You're actively,

Proactively,

You know,

Literally,

You know,

Knowing that we have this plastic mind,

This plastic brain.

We can change the way that we look at ourselves in the mirror.

We can change the way we talk to ourselves.

We can change the way we feel about ourselves from the inside out.

I mean,

I think one thing and I'm looking at some of the comments here.

We're gonna really talk about it,

Maybe we touched on it or just mentioned it.

But just meditation can help with all this stuff.

Meditation is the opportunity to get to know your mind.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani And to know the bullshit.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

Very much so.

You know,

Meditation is the opportunity to help relax that anxiety about your—what body does more feel or the way you're feeling about yourself.

And then—and the more you sit,

The more—and the more you relax,

The more you get to know your mind.

You know,

You create the opportunity for—to change or at least you open up the opportunity to—to just look at other possibilities to see yourself in a different light and—and to seek you know,

Positive ways of being with yourself and being in the world and also have positive relationships with yourself and—and incorporate and begin to bring positive relationships into your life instead of—instead of—you know,

And also maybe your relationship to your social media.

You know,

We just talked about you can flip the script and you're freaking real.

It's not the be or whatever.

You know,

You're—you're— Dr.

Justin Marchegiani The algorithm.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah,

The algorithm.

You can change that shit.

They make it work for you.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Right.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani You know,

And so it's just like we have—we have the ability but it takes work.

It takes—it could—it could be generally.

It could be meditation.

I think both of those two have—have served us and a lot of other people tremendously.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani But you have to make the time.

It's not gonna change just by—and I'm glad.

Whoever's listening,

I'm glad you're listening to this show.

I think it's wonderful but take the next step.

You know,

Whatever it looks like for you,

Take the next step and—and realize that you're valuable.

Realize that you are enough and begin to change from the inside out by taking on these—on—on just even a meditation practice or just finding your breath and just calming the fuck down.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Uh-huh.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani And getting away from your mind,

Getting away from the trappings and the negative,

You know,

Thinking and—and activity of the mind and then taking those actions,

The emotions that come along with it.

You can change.

Okay,

There's my PSA,

John.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Boom!

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Wow,

Man.

I—I love it.

Like,

How do we go from there,

Man?

But let's—let's do it.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Let's—let's—you talked about,

You know,

That's a bit that you talked about how to change and—and we'll get a little bit further into healing and treating once you have identified that you are having these challenges that you may in fact be fighting this.

We're gonna talk about that in a second.

But let's—let's kinda back up further down the stream.

What I mean by that is like,

How do you prevent it from ever becoming a problem?

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Mm-hmm.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani In yourself and in others.

So I think a lot of it starts early on with like I talked about my kids.

I want to tell them how—how beautiful they are on the inside.

I want to promote that positive—that positive self-talk.

My wife,

She sits down with our—our 5-year-old quite often and she's like,

What—what are you telling yourself?

Because my—my 5-year-old,

I—I love her to death.

She can be very sensitive and you know,

If we—if we discipline her,

She will say,

Oh,

You guys don't love me anymore.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Yeah.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Right.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani It's personal.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani That's—that's a—that is a negative narrative.

That's a negative story you're telling yourself.

So we—we will literally sit down with her and be like,

Hey,

What negative things are you telling yourself?

And she will—she will admit it and be like,

That's not true.

So I think starting early on and being proactive as parents,

As teachers,

As adults for our youth,

We can help them to change and literally flip that script and not be so focused on their—their outward looks,

Right?

It's very easy to tell your little ones how beautiful they are physically,

Right?

Man,

There's a giant buck that's running right by my—my window here.

Sorry,

I got distracted.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani John,

Fuck off,

John.

I'm in the goddamn city.

There's cars.

There's like—you know what I mean?

Like,

Yeah,

Thanks,

John.

Thanks.

Thanks.

I'm just kidding.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Anyway,

It's—it's very easy to tell your kids how their physical attributes are.

Oh,

You're so cute.

Oh,

You— Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Look at your nose.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Your hair is so beautiful.

You know,

Look at your little cute button nose.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani Exactly.

Dr.

Justin Marchegiani And you know,

There's nothing necessarily wrong with that alone.

But if that's all you do is focus on the physical attributes as a parent,

As a teacher,

As maybe a church leader or whatever,

Then—then you start—start like feeding that—that that's what your identity and worth is based upon,

Is your physical attributes and it's not.

So you have to build other—other positive physical attributes or identify those to—to our youth.

And that's a big piece of it.

And there's actually a great—a great resource that's out there.

It's called Confident Body,

Confident Child.

We'll make sure that's—that's in the—the show notes.

Confident Body,

Confident Child.

Check that out.

And that's for parents that want to encourage that positive body image and healthy eating patterns in young children.

The other piece coming back to teaching and—and as adults,

Work to end bullying.

We talked about how,

You know,

How impactful bullying is on your—your—your negative self image.

Oh,

You—you know,

You—you've got a big nose.

Oh,

You're a fatty.

Oh,

You're a bird chest.

Oh,

Whatever.

We've got to stop that.

And not just in our youth but in the workplace as adults.

We got to—we're grown ass adults.

We got to stop bullying as adults.

Just thinking at the gym,

Like thinking about pumping iron again,

It's like,

I mean,

That whole that the fucking false bravado at the gym,

Like with all the guys,

Like,

You know,

With the muscle shirts on and walking around and it's just like,

You know,

Just putting—pulling a nose up.

Well,

I'm not—you know,

But like when you're like—when you're carrying yourself in a way that's just like,

Look how fucking big I am,

Man.

Like,

You know,

And then holding your nose up to other people and shit.

Oh,

It's completely insecure.

Like it's—it's complete insecurity.

Instead of welcoming people,

It's like,

Oh,

Hey,

Man,

Let's,

You know,

Let's—oh,

You're working on your shoulders?

Are you working on this?

Like,

Oh,

This exercise really worked well for me.

Pull people in,

You know,

And create a community.

Support one another.

I mean,

We all thrive when we support— Like,

I remember a few times walking through the gym and personally I've done this.

I'm guilty of doing it.

And seeing,

You know,

Somebody smaller than myself lifting way less weight and in my mind like,

Oh,

Shh,

Weakling.

That's a weakling right there.

Watch out.

Our REA is going to come off and shut you down,

Man.

But yeah,

That's the kind of—but instead—and now we're just like,

Oh,

Man,

I'm going to do this.

And now I try to do this is I—if I'm in the gym and I see someone and they're working out,

They're bettering themselves wherever they are.

They're bettering themselves.

And I just celebrate that and be compassionate and be like,

You know what?

Right on.

Good job.

Right.

Wherever they are.

So that's a reframing that we need to do personally in the gym on whatever side you are.

So whether that's you,

The one like walking around and seeing someone lifting less than you and rather than being like,

Oh,

Well,

They're lifting less than me,

Celebrate them for being there or the flip side,

If you are the one that's on the bench,

Perhaps,

And you're lifting less than everyone else,

Don't compare yourself to them.

Compare yourself to you the week before and celebrate the fact that you are there bettering yourself.

You're not there to be the bodybuilder.

You're not there to be Arnold Schwarzenegger.

You're not there to be the fitness model.

You're there to better yourself and get healthier for the right reasons.

So celebrate that.

The only way is anything is going to change is by showing up first.

That's the only way you're going to get,

You know,

Have those muscles or whatever like or just anything is going to change.

It's just to show up.

I mean,

So I mean,

That's all that's the biggest 90 percent of success and that should be 90 percent of your celebration.

Just getting there.

Having the will and the wisdom and the ability to get yourself there is huge.

So celebrate just that and then work hard if you want and do the work and do the work and discipline.

I mean,

The gym really helps me,

John,

Especially when I do things that are really hard at the gym.

I'm doing this treadmill,

The Remiad Eeleke I did it this morning.

I last two days in a row,

Man.

I've seen it.

15 percent incline.

I'm doing it 3.

7,

3.

6,

3.

8 miles an hour,

20,

21 minutes.

It crushes me,

But I see my mind.

It's like a meditation itself.

I get to,

You know,

Like – But you're doing it for the right reason because it helps you to like push past your mental limits.

You're not doing it because I would be like,

Oh,

Well,

I want to be lean and mean.

And if it is that,

You're not obsessed with it,

Right?

No,

No,

No.

It's okay to want to – It's a byproduct.

That's a bad byproduct.

Yeah.

It's okay to want to better yourself,

But don't become obsessed with it.

That's,

Again,

What this whole show is about is the difference between obsession and knowledge.

So coming back to kind of preventing it,

Again,

The onus is on us as adults and helping to prevent it amongst our youth is really sitting down and having the heart-to-heart conversation is like maybe they're teenagers and they're starting again as social media.

You're like,

Hey,

You see this right here?

This right here is not real.

This right here is Photoshop,

Right?

Or this right here is someone who works out obsessively and they're on – this is what they do for a living.

This is not realistic,

Right?

Don't set your expectations here because this is not where you're going to get because it's not healthy.

And then show them what healthy looks like by modeling that yourself.

So I think that's a big piece of it is the onus is really on us as adults is to change the language we use and then change how – and help to change our kids' perception and help them to be more critical of what it is they're seeing in social media,

On movies,

Magazines,

Everywhere else and really show them what true beauty is.

It's not just external beauty.

We've got beauty on the outside but there's so much beauty on the inside that we're missing out.

That's all we focus on.

I think anybody in a leadership role,

Whether it's a coach,

Whether it's a teacher,

Whether in an office,

Like you can create an environment.

You can create a positive,

Healthy environment that just affirms everyone's – that we're living.

We all have the same needs and the way that we attain more of those needs is by being kind,

Being loving,

Being – but that's going to take work of being kinder to yourself.

And that's how we come back to the practice.

Like meditate,

Meditate,

Meditate,

Meditate,

Meditate.

Maybe what's going to help you lead the meditation is just like getting a little healthier in your body in some ways.

Go for a walk.

All of these things have just shown to enhance our brain chemistry so we have a more positive outlook and a feeling about ourselves and therefore we're able to take like a more positive step forward or maybe just don't do the negative stuff.

Don't take a step in the direction that hasn't been serving you or keeps you locked in your mind in some ways.

That isn't producing positive feelings and isn't producing positive results.

Right?

So yeah.

All right.

Well,

So now those are ways to prevent it.

So that's kind of further upstream,

Keeping people from getting to this point.

But once they are to this point,

Let's talk about ways to treat this.

And I love that you highlighted this in the notes.

We are not medical professionals.

We are just two guys talking about this stuff and we are reporting on the research that we have done with our helpful friend Google.

So if you want to truly know what it is that you are challenged with,

We definitely want you to go and see your doctor,

Your clinician and seek out professional diagnosis on this and then professional treatment.

That said,

We do have some things that we have found through,

Again,

Through the interwebs that we want to make sure we report to you and you can talk to your professional about this.

So over to you,

Will,

If you want to go through a couple of these.

Yeah,

For sure.

So again,

There's not a ton of – there is information out there for sure.

And there hasn't been – for men,

There hasn't been a lot of – there's not a lot of data out there for what does work or what doesn't work.

So first is correct diagnosis of BDD,

So body dysmorphia disorder.

So physicians can usually diagnose this in men by asking a few basic questions.

These questions are designed to determine if a man is concerned about a perceived flaw,

Perceived keyword flaw in his appearance,

Whether the flaw is small,

Imagined or more significant or whether or not the concern causes a significant amount of distress or whether or not that concern interferes with an aspect of their lives.

So again … Interference,

Hey,

What is that interference?

It could be not going out for that promotion.

It may be not seeking out a relationship,

Friendship,

Romantic relationship.

What is it limiting you into?

Yeah,

It's huge.

Yeah,

It's very huge,

Right?

So I mean,

So just – I mean,

So if this episode is kind of like,

Oh,

Wait,

Wait,

Maybe I got to – go talk to a professional.

Get those questions asked and see where you are.

Next is SSRIs,

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors have shown to be promising.

So maybe that's a course of action.

And behavioral therapy has also been effective in treating BDD.

For this disorder,

The therapy is designed to help patients develop positive opinions of their physical appearance as well as quelling any negative behaviors caused by their skewed perception.

Again,

How many times we come back – it also helps patients to face their fears.

So there's definitely something – there is behavioral therapy out there that can help you with this as well.

Yeah,

I just have some suggestions here.

I already mentioned a couple,

Meditation,

Stop doing and reading and absorbing things that feed this obsession.

OK.

Shout out social media.

Maybe psychedelics would help,

John.

Again,

I'm not a medical professional but like they've been shown a very,

Very – have a very,

Very positive effect on so many of the psychological disorders that the pharmaceutical industry has been battling for years.

They've been shown in many – and we're going to see a lot of research coming out over the next several years of how it's like,

Wow,

How this stuff really – because it's not just – it doesn't just help and change your brain chemistry with their findings.

But like in higher doses,

In my experience with psychedelics,

It gives you that opportunity to self-reflect in a positive way,

In a kind way.

You can really see who you are at your core which is loving,

Kind being.

But then it shows me like what is getting in the way of me being that loving and kind being to myself.

Maybe that's something that can – maybe an experience like that – it's interesting about those psychedelic experiences,

John.

You can have this massive epiphany,

This massive awakening,

This massive love that you can feel.

Rewiring,

Man.

Rewiring,

Exactly.

Right.

But the rewiring really starts after the psychedelic stuff.

You can have it.

But if you don't do anything,

You just be like,

Oh,

You know what I mean?

It's like,

Oh,

That was a lot of fun and then you're going to go – like a very,

Very high likelihood that you're going to go back to the same way after just a few weeks of doing the same thing and thinking and feeling and being the same way.

But just with like,

Oh,

I remember that.

I remember that.

So if you're going to take that opportunity,

Take several weeks afterwards and get yourself into some sort of integration program or something that's going to help you sort through the experience,

Right,

But also help you to take active steps in beginning to be more of that self that you probably will be shown.

It's amazing.

It goes right to the truth of who you are in my experience.

So those are just some ways that can definitely help if you are kind of stuck with any one of the things that we had talked about here that can help you kind of pull yourself out and maybe it's just going to take a couple of times listening to this episode again and again.

One thing I will also say,

Jon,

Is if you're around a bunch of shitty people that are very judgmental and always picking you apart and always picking apart other people,

Then I would trade up your friends too.

I'm glad you hit on that last part right there,

Picking on other people,

Right?

But sure,

It's easy to not want to be around a group that's going to criticize you,

Right?

If you come in a group and they're like,

Oh,

You're fat,

You're not muscular enough,

Sure,

We don't want to surround ourselves with those people.

But if you're around a group that's also pointing at other people and then like,

Oh,

Look at that fatty or look at that weenie.

How scrawny they are.

Then now they are also feeding your perception of what perfect looks like or should look like.

Right.

I'll show you your friends.

Yeah,

You show me your friends,

I'll show you your future.

That's right.

And what kind of future do you want?

And if your friends aren't matching that future,

Fucking get rid of them.

I mean,

Hey,

Love to all.

But if they're not helping you and putting positivity in the world,

In their own lives and into your life,

Then I would really question those relationships.

And if they are talking negatively about others,

Chances are they're talking negatively about you behind your back.

So yeah,

It's a great point.

Cut them out,

Man.

Cut them out.

I love them.

Love them and cut them out.

But love them.

I love them as humans.

It's like all that picking apart other people and you touched on it,

Jon,

Earlier.

It's like that's just their insecurities talking.

That's just their insecurities manifesting and spinning or like kind of they're speaking it through their own ugliness that they feel for themselves.

Because if they're able to pick apart other people so easily,

How are they picking apart themselves on a continual basis?

So it's all like it's just outward reflection of what's going on on the inside anyway.

Right.

Wow,

Man.

We've definitely come a long way in this journey.

It's been difficult but also freeing,

Like you said.

And I'm so thankful that we did this episode.

And hopefully for those listening,

We'd love to hear from you.

We'd love to hear what your challenges are,

Whether it's right here in the live comments or whether it's later on on YouTube or on our Facebook or LinkedIn,

Wherever the case may be.

Let us know the challenges that you have faced in this area.

And maybe we can point you towards resources that can be helpful.

Point you towards people that can be helpful.

Point you towards meditation,

Journaling that can be helpful.

If you don't want to,

If you don't want to put that in the comments,

Obviously we're not going to force that upon you guys.

But if you want to,

Feel free to share that with us because we want to be the resource to help positive change.

That said,

Will,

Unless there's anything else that you want to cover,

I'm going to delve right or jump right into that closing practice.

No,

You know,

I just say,

Just we have a retreat coming up May 18th to the 21st.

I'm so stoked for that.

We're also going to be in Durango,

Too.

So we have two retreats next year,

East Coast and in West Coast,

I guess,

Colorado's West Coast or West where I am for sure.

I'm a little bit of a Western of me.

Yeah,

So I mean,

So yeah,

But we'll be announcing all those very shortly and getting them up on our website and you can really do a great,

Wonderful immersion with us and be around a lot of positive people.

We really create a wonderful,

Positive environment,

Myself,

John,

Dr.

Theresa Larson and anybody that works with us.

We make sure you vet them to just be good,

Positive people.

We all have stuff to work on,

Too.

So yeah,

I think we're good,

John.

I don't have anything else to really say.

But I really want to thank you.

Normally I say or we say something to this effect after the final meditation,

But I'm guessing that sometimes after the final meditation,

People would hit stop and don't listen to this very last bit.

Hey,

For our audience,

Thank you for joining us here today and we sincerely appreciate you,

You tuning in.

And if you've got something out of this episode,

Please share it with your friends,

Your family,

Your colleagues,

Whoever you feel could benefit.

Please give us a review,

Subscribe to the podcast and get access to exclusive content that we're putting together and the link will be in the show notes and follow us on YouTube.

As Will mentioned,

You just go on YouTube and type in at Men Talking Mindfulness,

That's us.

Subscribe,

Hit that little bell and that will help you to be notified of new content as it comes out.

Boom,

Got that out of the way.

Now let's get into this final meditation,

Man.

You got it,

Man,

It's your time.

Yeah,

Well,

Let's,

You know what,

In light of,

And this is kind of a spur of the moment thing in light of the conversation we've had,

I'm just going to guide something that's based around breath,

But also focus on our positive mantras,

Our positive stories that we're going to tell ourselves.

So let's do an I am meditation.

All right,

So let's bring your attention to the here and now,

The space and time that you are filling,

That you are feeling.

Noticing your breath,

The physical side,

The physical attributes of your breath.

Your breath is with you always,

We often forget,

But it is with us always.

Focus on that for a few seconds,

Paying attention to the rise and fall of your diaphragm with each breath in and each breath out.

And now take a second to think about the last time you saw yourself or thought about yourself and think about your thoughts,

The metacognition,

Thinking about your thoughts,

Being aware of your thoughts and the emotions that are driven by those thoughts.

And without any judgment,

Note those thoughts,

Note what was true and what was not.

Again,

Even without judgment for the thoughts that were not true,

Don't feel the need to judge it.

Just be aware of the fact that it was not true.

We often view ourselves through a lens that causes distortion.

Being aware of that,

Being aware that we see ourselves through this distorting lens,

We can change the way that we see ourselves,

That we perceive ourselves,

That we present ourselves in this world and in this universe.

You are good enough.

You are better than you think you are.

Love yourself outside and in as that is where this all starts.

Self love outside and in.

Start to think about the way you think about yourself and give yourself more self love.

And with that we will close with two deep cleansing breaths.

Begin by breathing out as much air as you can,

Emptying your lungs,

Bringing your belly to your spine.

Holding empty,

Deep breath in,

Down into the belly,

In through your nose,

Pulling all the way up,

Holding at the top and release.

Empty empty empty,

Holding empty at the bottom,

Last one together,

Deep breath in,

In through your nose,

Filling up,

Filling up,

Holding at the top and now letting it go.

Start to bring some movement back into your body,

Rolling your shoulders,

Your beautiful shoulders,

Rolling your neck,

Your beautiful neck and releasing.

Thank you all so much.

Thank you Will.

What an awesome conversation.

Thank you for being so raw and honest about this.

This was fantastic.

I got a lot out of it.

I feel better for it.

So thank you for sharing that with me and thank you again to our audience who tuned in today.

Will,

I'll let you wrap it up brother.

Thank you John.

I think it's,

Thank you because I got to say it's a hell of a lot easier to have this conversation with a brother like you who's willing to go there and put it out there and not be afraid because we're united in this mission and this is just a little manifestation of our friendship,

Of what we're trying to do,

How we're trying to help all people out there.

And yeah,

So thank you John.

I have nothing more to say.

I think we all said it during the episode and I just want to thank the audience out there.

Thank you,

Thank you,

Thank you for listening and if you have,

Maybe share this with your friends.

I know there's a lot out there that might need this kind of information.

That's right.

Awesome brother.

All right,

Until next time everyone.

Have a great Friday.

Have a great Friday.

Happy Veterans Day to our veterans.

Have a great weekend.

We love you all.

Peace.

Peace.

Peace.

Thanks for joining us today.

We hope you walk away with some new tools and insights to guide you on your life journey.

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