060 Brittnee Bond: From Cult To Community Builder

Brittnee Bond is a business consultant and world traveler. She was born into a cult. Now, she travels the world and helps empower women in life and business. Ruwan and Brittnee talk cults, man vs. woman strategies in getting it done, and other fun things. We recorded this podcast right before a life-changing party.

Please note: This podcast may contain explicit language.

Transcript

Today's guest is a wonderful Brittany Bond.

Brittany is a consultant coach.

She also runs the Bond Women's Festival,

Which is Asia's first women-led festival.

So she and I speak a lot about male-female stuff,

Women in power,

Women in business,

What it's like from the female perspective in patriarchal or men's world and what we all can learn from that.

She also grew up in the Jehovah's Witnesses and speaks about her what I would call a cult experience.

She was as communicated and had a beautiful transition into becoming a global community manager with an exciting career and exciting life.

And I'm not gonna go too into it in this intro,

But basically Brittany came over to my place in Chiang Mai,

Recorded this very interesting podcast,

And then I had a party with some people.

It's supposed to be an innocent game of board game playing.

We all went to a very trippy headspace and I think all of our lives have been drastically different,

Including myself since.

I'm not gonna go into it now,

But in the next episode of the podcast,

In episode 61 on subversalism featuring my buddy Aaron,

Who has also been featured in recent podcasts,

Who's also here in Chiang Mai and at that party,

We kind of reveal what happened between.

.

.

What happened?

Crazy stuff.

Anyway,

Get ahead of myself.

That's for next episode.

Right now,

You're listening to episode 060,

Women in Power,

Featuring Brittany Bond.

You're listening to the Ruwando Podcast,

Perpetual Orgasm,

Infinite Play.

Please subscribe on iTunes and enjoy the show.

Brittany Bond.

Hi.

I feel like we should have done this a long time ago,

But we met,

What,

A year ago?

Something like that?

Yeah.

Alright,

So I actually don't know everything you do other than you're an interesting person and you're the go-to person for social things for people like me in Chiang Mai.

Yes.

But do you want to introduce yourself a little bit?

Yeah.

So,

My name is Brittany Bond.

I have a background in intellectual property law.

I worked in corporate law for six years in the US,

The last place being New York City.

And in 2016,

Two other people and I co-founded a clothing travel company.

And I traveled the world doing that for a year.

I exited the company.

That company is still going.

And a place that I really liked was Chiang Mai,

So I came back here,

Started a couple more companies.

And this is still my home base in Thailand,

But I traveled the world making a remote work documentary.

I also consult businesses on how to create remote work teams and I do everything to empower women entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

I'm also interested in this last piece right now because it's not kind of a newer thing for you or like a newer shift or focus.

I've always done it,

But I never thought about doing it more for business,

I guess.

Like I've created a women entrepreneurship accelerator boot camps.

I've done that.

I do a women's festival every year.

I do women entrepreneurship meetups around the whole world.

Yeah.

And they've got like 60,

70 people.

So when I just walk up to town,

I just create a meetup and everyone comes.

Yeah.

So what's interesting for me is that I know a lot of women's coaches in my space,

But they usually come from the opposite end of like spirituality.

I mean,

You know the same people I know basically.

That's why I have a hard time being a coach in that way because I've done a lot of it's fake.

We don't have to.

Well,

We could go into that in a sec.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

I know because I get what you're saying.

That's why this is interesting for me that you're dealing with the most concrete things,

Which are money.

I don't know how time is spent.

I mean.

Yeah.

The business accelerator program,

We went over how to do a business plan,

How to raise funding and investments and how to do all things digital marketing.

And then actually how to do your sales pitch.

So I worked with them on how to do a self-inelligater pitch and we did it in front of a hundred and fifty people.

Yeah.

So do you find that you're working with women?

Well,

Actually,

Let me just ask you why,

Why women specifically for you?

Probably a few reasons.

I think it's underrepresented.

And I always worked in a,

Like,

I was the only woman most of the time in a law firm that I was in.

So I thought it was normal.

I just did my thing without really wondering if other women were doing it.

And then when I got out into entrepreneurship world,

Traveling world,

I realized how much women,

A lot of women face confidence issues and just really,

Really don't go after things.

And I don't understand why.

And so I wanted to research that and help support it and fix it,

I guess.

Yeah.

So I actually don't know what your views are on this.

Well,

We're going to get into it.

Do you think it's like on the high level,

Do you think that it's that women have been conditioned to not be as good or do you think the world is set up for a male brain?

Something in between.

I've been reading a book called Sapiens lately.

I love Sapiens.

I just finished it.

Yeah.

We talked about it at lunch.

But I just went over the section about women and they tried to explain why women,

Why the dynamic of men and women are the way it is today.

They went into,

Is it because men are physically stronger?

And they were like,

No.

Is it because this?

No.

And basically the point is there really isn't a reason why there's a difference except for the fact that there is one and then like religion has reinforced that and culture has reinforced that.

And so we're born into a system where it's just the way it is,

But we all see it evolving and changing right now.

And I think that's for the better.

I don't personally think,

I don't think the answer is to villainize men.

I don't think that's really even the problem.

I think a lot of it is women within themselves,

Their own confidence issues,

Their own perspective on the world and what they think they're capable of.

And I think that will feed out and to change the world.

Yeah.

So I want to get into the practical stuff in a sec,

But philosophically,

Like,

So I love Sapiens.

I probably told you that I love Sapiens.

I read this book.

It's so good.

I feel like I've said that to a few people recently,

But one chapter I actually didn't like,

Or one piece that I didn't agree with was around that.

He was saying something like,

Yes,

The differences between men and women perhaps make being a soldier easier for a man,

But being a general shouldn't make a difference.

I was like,

That's actually not true because I mean,

We have different reward circuits and like most women I know who are like,

You know,

I don't think it's conditioning that they're not as aggressive or violent or interested in domination.

Like,

I think that is kind of a male brain thing.

So I am wondering,

Like jumping to another thing,

If could the business world be changed?

Like if the world was run by women,

Do you think women would have a different and easier time if it was structured from agriculture?

But that's the point.

So just to go back to what you said in Sapiens,

Because I read that chapter recently,

And what he said is it's not that women,

I guess women are less aggressive and geared towards violence and rage or whatever it was,

Like things that would help in war and like making strategic decisions when it comes to warfare,

Right?

Because you have to kind of make people disposable and just be like,

Oh,

Let's kill them.

I think the point is that women would answer that very differently.

Yeah,

I think there'd be less war.

I think there'd be less war.

It's not that women,

We'd have more women generals.

I don't think that would be.

.

.

I don't think we'd be fighting the same war.

There would be a different conflict.

And I think women are a lot more collaborative by nature.

But if you look closely at the political dynamics in the world right now,

Things are changing that way.

And I think in the next 5-10 years,

You'll start seeing more collaborative spaces,

More,

We call it like the co-sharing network of people co-working,

Co-living,

All this stuff.

But a lot of that is if you look at who's leading it,

It's a lot more women leading those things.

Like I'm one of those people.

So I think that that's a dynamic that you'll see shift.

And I don't think it's a bad or a good thing.

I think it's just,

It's evolving.

We're evolving as cultures.

It's the safest time in all of history right now.

I mean,

It's like becoming,

It's like less hyper masculine.

None of us have to walk around with a sword because it's actually very safe in the 21st century for the most part.

Yeah.

So,

I want to talk about cult stuff too.

So I don't know how much I've shared about mine,

But one reason I was drawn to my cult was that it was matriarchal and they had all these co-living egalitarian tribal spaces that were like,

They weren't,

At least internally,

They weren't capitalist or consumerist.

Like we shared all our food,

We shared our rent,

Cost,

All that stuff.

Do you see the whole world going in that direction?

I mean,

I think what we've seen with communism is that a lot of times it doesn't work.

There's the advance between entrepreneurship and communal shared living and space and resources.

So I think a lot of people will do the sharing economy where they share their resources.

For instance,

If I have a power tool,

I only use it once a year,

Maybe I can share it with my community and use it like that.

But when they did communism in Russia,

I didn't work because people only worked just enough to,

They were trying to work as little as possible to gain as much as possible out of the system.

So there's no,

It's not incentivized.

So to answer your question,

I think that it's going to be more like sharing economy,

But I don't think we're going to go to like full communism.

Do you think that mindset of trying to maximize your value is also conditioned?

Or is that.

.

.

Maximize your value.

You were saying they weren't incentivized,

Right?

But like in Sapiens,

I think this is in Sapiens,

One of these anthropology books was like prior to agriculture,

It was much more likely that people did things just because it was good for everyone.

They didn't even think like,

Oh,

I'm like,

I'm gaining value or net worth or something.

It's just like,

Oh yeah,

I mean,

My neighbor needs their house built,

I'm going to help them tomorrow,

They'll help me.

Like that,

If people really thought like that in communism,

No one sees power,

It might've actually worked,

But that's not human nature nowadays.

Well,

It's because we went from tribe to tribes where you actually just helped the whole tribe because it naturally helped you because you're all just moving together.

You don't have anything set that is yours to agricultural revolution where you have your plot of land,

You have your house and you only have that thing and you have to like guard it with all your life because if you don't make money off that,

Your family dies.

So it went from a tribe mentality to an individualist like mentality and I think it is going back to a tribe mentality,

Especially as us,

I don't want to say a younger generation,

But like more millennials.

Yeah,

Millennials don't care as much about owning a house,

Owning this,

Owning that and they just want to have more experiences.

I think we will go to more of a sharing economy.

Why do you think that is,

Internet?

I mean,

I graduated high school in 2008 when the stock market crashed,

My parents lost their house,

All of my friends' parents lost their pension.

I'm from Northern California where people have a lot of money and they lost it all.

And I think that I saw that and I was like,

Not doing that.

Like,

You're sold a lie that if you follow the system and you get paid out a pension or 401k or whatever and we saw very clearly that people got screwed over.

Yeah,

I was in college in 2008 and I had saved my first thousand bucks.

I was so proud of myself and I was so responsible to put in the stock market.

Literally,

Like in six weeks,

I lost my entire life savings.

It was terrible.

Two summer jobs.

But anyway,

I'm interested about the communal stuff and like,

Because you're mentioning how women seem to be in charge more.

I don't know if that's what you said,

But something like that.

Yeah,

So I am a consultant for coworking and co-living spaces because I had the co-living company.

I started in Southeast Asia.

I'm like the go-to person as a consultant.

So if someone's launching a coworking space,

They'll call me up and I'll fly out and help them set up and scale and do everything.

And I see a lot more women involved just in general,

People,

Whether they're the manager or the volunteer or whatever,

I think they're just,

They like that work more.

Yeah.

And I don't know if it's super relates,

But I just made a video recently on bottoming.

It's kind of a sexualized term,

But like it's a different form of power dynamics.

We're not trying to like dominate.

It's like,

It's kind of like the feminine mystique.

Like you make it feel really good for people to do what you want.

So I just came up because I got into a fight with a Thai cop yesterday because like the driver's license thing,

I have an international license,

But a thing was wrong.

We were yelling at each other.

It was the worst,

Bad behavior by me.

I shouldn't have yelled at a cop.

It was stupid.

But I was like,

Oh,

I should have bought him to him.

If I was nice to him,

He probably would have been nice to me.

That was silly of me.

Very silly of me.

But I was thinking like,

That's like a way more effective way to lead or not even lead.

It's like organize a community.

You're not trying to be the top dog,

Which I do think is like an more instinctual way women operate,

Which is way more effective for like,

I wouldn't want to live in a community led by like a super masculine dude.

It'd probably be uncomfortable.

Yeah.

And I think another,

You know,

Maybe less nice term is like women are really good at manipulating situations.

And I don't think that's even a bad thing.

Like if a mom needs her kid to do something,

She probably will manipulate him to get into bed when she wants him to or whatever.

But it makes things work.

I think for me,

I'm actually really bad at that because I've been told that I have like really,

If I'm on,

If I'm like on point and I'm after a goal,

I can do it.

But when I'm in my everyday life,

I just don't have time to bullshit.

And so people actually tell me that I have very masculine energy when I go about things,

Which doesn't really work in Thai culture.

So I work a lot with a lot of Thai businesses and consultants.

And I try and say,

Well,

You know,

I have a foreign consultant,

You know,

This is how I work.

But I've had to really soften myself because I'm being from California,

We're very,

Very direct.

And also I lived in New York for a long time.

I was going to say New York is,

I haven't seen you in a work environment,

But I've seen you in jiu-jitsu and I've noticed,

I just might feel.

Yeah.

So you tell people we actually do jiu-jitsu together so they know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What else would people think?

I don't know.

I was peering through the window while you were doing jiu-jitsu so much.

No,

No.

I was just like,

I was noticing,

I hope you don't mind me saying,

I was noticing the way you speak to the instructor.

Your voice gets a little higher pitched.

And I'm like,

I just thought I had this thought a few times,

Like,

Oh,

I bet this is what Brittany was like with her parents when she was a little girl.

Yeah.

To get positive attention.

I noticed that I do that with the coach and everything,

But in a business environment,

People have been telling me that I'm really scary.

Like I'm very stern and direct and like,

I want to say forceful,

But you know,

If I'm the manager,

I need to run a team,

Then you have to come in.

People need to know that you're in charge.

And I don't mean that in a mean way.

Yeah.

So I think it's a balance in the middle.

Most days I'm good.

Most days I can balance in the middle.

And it's gotten me so far.

Like I've been able to go so far in my career as a business owner and also traveling around because I think I'm able to navigate both of those.

And I don't take things personally very often.

I don't really take anything personally where I think a lot of women internalize what everyone's saying and like immediately go past a filter of like,

Is this,

They go into the filter of like this,

He's doing that against me personally.

And I just don't have that filter.

I'm like,

I don't know,

Whatever it is you're wrong.

I think that's one of the worst memes of like patriarchal thinking,

Which I actually think is ironically perpetuated by feminism,

Like this idea of like,

You gotta be top dog.

Like everything is being like the top.

So like you see all these women,

A lot of my female friends are trying so hard to play a man's game and maybe they're not good at it.

Maybe they are good at it,

Which is a stressful way to live.

Like maybe,

Especially with Thai people,

It should be a little.

Yeah.

And I actually had this discussion with my boyfriend a lot because you know,

There's been certain business negotiations I've been in with investors and this and that where I felt like I needed to be super strong and like super,

I don't want to say tough or anything,

But like,

Yeah,

More male energy.

Right.

And my boyfriend was like,

You know,

The reason why you do so well with people is because you are able to be soft,

Even though you're strong,

You know,

Like it's like the feminine,

But strong.

And then I,

That I have to remind myself that too,

Because I think it's cultural.

Like we're so used to just trying to be dominant,

Do it in a man's way.

But really the reason why I've gone so far is because I'm strong,

But also a woman.

Cause like the beauty of bottoming is the term I get.

You need to come up with a different term cause I'm just like picturing like gay sex right now.

Okay.

I've got taken it from the BDSM world.

Okay,

Fine.

I don't know.

Feminine,

Whatever.

I don't know.

I don't,

I don't,

Whatever it is.

It's like,

If you do it effectively,

You're not overriding someone else's will.

You're actually,

It's making it feel good for them to do what you wanted.

It's like,

There's no conflict.

Like if someone tops you,

Like someone dominates you,

You're like,

Ah,

I'm doing this thing cause they made me,

You know,

Which was like a big theme in my cult actually as a matriarchy.

They would try and.

.

.

No,

They would make everything feel good.

It's like,

Like they're being investigated with FBI right now.

I think,

I don't know,

I'm speculating,

But it seems like the FBI is having trouble,

You know,

Getting a paper trail because everything was like subtle feminine communication.

Like they would get people to do things,

But it was always the person's idea.

It's kind of like a little girl getting her dad to do something.

It's like,

It's the dad's in his power,

But he's doing exactly what his daughter,

Like Lucy K has jokes on this.

But,

Yeah,

Anyway,

Feminine mystique,

Bottoming.

I would say,

To me it sounds like subtle manipulation.

Yeah,

Same thing.

Yeah,

But yeah.

It can be done in a loving way too.

I don't,

I think if you're trying to move people,

I would rather take that over violence any day.

Like say people did that in like a political situation.

Imagine how things would be different across the world.

Anyway,

Sorry,

Go on.

No,

That's the end of the thread.

I'm thinking like what's a better word than bottoming?

I should have thought about this before we started.

Cool.

So,

With the women you work with,

Do you find that they need help with one or the other more in terms of like being forceful or being…?

Oh,

Confidence is the issue.

So,

I was thinking about this.

I think we talked about this before we went on,

But I did mushrooms for the day.

I had this big like,

Gives me a moment of how I can help women because a lot of people think,

A lot of women that I talk to that are feminists,

They think that men are the problem.

And I really don't think that that's the answer.

I think men perpetuate the existing problems sometimes.

Not all of them,

But some of them do.

And I will have a very,

Case in point is I organize a women's festival every year.

It's a women-led entrepreneurship festival.

Ten women like organizing and leading with me full time.

We had the exact same problems that you would probably in a male-women environment.

And the same dynamic of them feeling insecure,

Them turning to me and feeling like I hurt their feelings or that I run over them.

Did your man explain to them or something?

Yeah,

It's like all the things that maybe women would blame men for still came up.

Those insecurities,

Confidence issues,

All those things.

And we had no men in the room.

There's no male influence involved whatsoever.

And to me that was a big proving to me point that a lot of this is within our own selves and we need to work out.

And then once you build yourself up,

Then if those men come at you or whatever,

The ones that are being inappropriate,

They won't affect you as much anymore.

You don't care or you'll have different tools on how to deal with it because you're not going to take it personally and you're not going to,

You're just not going to put up with it.

Or I think right now they're like a little bit insecure,

Not confident,

And then they take it super personally and then you see all those threads on Facebook.

Yeah.

And if when someone takes something personally because they're insecure,

They usually heighten the conflict and then think escalate.

Yeah.

And I mean,

I have from being one who has been trolled online unnecessarily and just because I'm doing women entrepreneurship stuff,

I do think there are men out there that have nothing better to do with their lives and they feel threatened.

So that is a thing that exists out there.

But I think if we can just work on ourselves and I plan to help with this,

You know,

Like maybe I do have a lot of male energy in me,

But if I can use that to say like,

Look,

You as a woman,

I understand you,

But I also can help build you up.

Like give you the tools that I have.

Because a lot of times I'm like,

Am I the only person,

Woman in this room that feels this way?

Because I talk to all my girlfriends and they are insecure about different things and I'm like,

I just don't have that insecurity in me.

So then I feel like I'll have one out.

Yeah.

It's easier to,

Uh,

I think that's also like just a general personal growth challenge is that the more you develop,

The more,

The more you become secure,

The less peers you have in that way.

Yeah.

I've been really feeling that lately because I want to keep growing,

You know,

And I have a couple of people in my life that are on a business level,

Financial level and emotional level.

People I look up to,

But there are so few and I don't say that facetiously.

I say that like,

I want more of them.

Where are they?

Like,

Can I,

Can someone please help me?

And to find those as women.

I can name one person because the rest of them are men that I look up to.

Interesting.

Do you mind sharing with the woman is someone knows,

Is it Oprah?

No,

No.

She's my friend Daria.

She lives here in Chiang Mai and she owns a digital marketing agency.

She had her own business in London.

She decided to pick it up and travel with it and her husband works with her,

But like she's the founder of that and it's her business.

And they make like,

She's super open about it.

They make like upwards of 60 grand a month on her business.

And she's like,

Yeah,

I'm going to,

It's going to grow to this much this year.

And this,

And she's like just killing it and so proud of it and so confident in herself.

And I'm like,

Yes,

These are the people I want to surround myself with because I'm on that level.

I'm curious,

What is her balance like in terms of like the forcefulness?

She's definitely like me where she has a lot more,

I would say male energy in her.

But she also,

What's really nice is her,

Her husband and her have like a very good balance where like when she is feeling down,

He's super understanding of her and super supportive.

And I think like whether you're a guy or a girl,

If you have to be the strong one or the leader in the business or relationship,

Sometimes it's hard to show weakness because you feel like,

Well,

I'm a strong one.

I'm not allowed to.

But I think that's the perfect balance.

You know,

Maybe she's strong in business,

But he can be strong when she comes home and she's stressed out.

And I feel that with my boyfriend,

Like I definitely,

We started a business together and I'm the leader of it and he's had some hard times,

But like I was able to,

Cause I have a lot more business experience than him,

That I was able to help him with that.

But then there's times where he's just like,

Let me handle this thing.

And I'm like,

Okay,

Yeah,

I am stressed out right now.

I need your help.

And maybe it's a pride thing.

I don't know.

But I think if you can find that balance with your partner,

It's a really amazing thing to be supportive of each other in that way.

I think it makes you stronger as a person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One thing you said about the women being strong enough to,

Even if something comes out,

Like I think you're talking about trolls,

It reminded me of how,

In my cult,

We can talk about cults soon,

But in my cult,

It was a matriarchal cult and women put themselves in physically vulnerable situations.

And we did like sexual things and it was mostly on women's bodies.

And I would always think like a lot of men would go in there being like,

Oh,

I need to protect these women from creepy dudes.

Like anyone could walk in here,

That kind of thing.

But the women in charge would always tell the guys,

Like,

Don't do it for us.

Like we're confident women,

We're solid ourselves.

Like we,

In there,

It's kind of magical thinking,

But like we'll create a feel that will keep creeps out.

And that's kind of what happened.

Like they had a way of communicating with like unsavory characters in a way that they always chose to leave.

Like they became so like uncomfortable that they would leave.

And I think that there's something there,

I'm trying not to make it mystical sounding,

But like there's something there that is exactly what we were talking about.

I think women have a lot,

I mean,

It's a female energy that can really move things without having to muscle it.

And I just think it's so curious,

Especially in applications in business,

Because there's a lot of evidence that women,

When they try to do corporate America,

Like our corporate world,

I keep saying corporate America to my Australian friends are like,

I work for corporate Australia.

Anyway.

Yeah.

I mean,

Just like spikes cortisol in a healthy way because it is built for a male brain.

A lot of work,

Conventional work.

Yeah.

I mean,

I can say that I'm right now with my remote collective stuff,

I'm talking to heads of businesses like head of Zoom,

Head of LinkedIn,

All these people,

And they're all men.

But the way I speak to them is not,

I don't speak to them as like a guy talking to a guy.

I speak to them as a woman.

Like I'm like,

Hi,

I want to be your friend and see how I can support you.

And I can't tell you how many conversations they're thrown off by because they're used to a traditional,

You know,

You can have a business meeting with someone and you're like,

This is what I can do for you,

This is what I can do for me,

Let's see if it lines up.

And I'm like,

Hi,

I just want to meet you and like see where you are.

When really I have an XYZ in my head and we're going to get this across and I always get what I want,

But I do it in a way and I'm not flirting with them.

I just,

I think it throws them off guard because I'm really nice.

And I'm just like,

Okay,

Human to human,

How are you doing?

Why did you start this?

How can I support you?

I do have solid business experience under my belt,

So I'm not just making it up.

I remember I somehow got on the phone with the head of partnership for zoom,

Like for the whole company.

And he was just like,

He even said to me,

I don't know how you got on this call with it.

I don't normally other people handle this.

And I was like,

Okay,

Look,

I heard that you guys are expanding into the UK and European markets.

I have done tons of partnerships around the world.

This is what I think could help you.

I want to see if I can help you out.

And I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.

So we talked about those things for a while.

And then at the end of the call,

He was like,

Wait,

Why did you want to be on the phone with me?

And then he ended up like doing a lot of things to help me with my company that he didn't have to do because I was able to just be there and be present and help him first.

And I don't think a guy,

Definitely not a Western male.

So I did a,

When I was in college,

I did a study abroad in Singapore and one of the professors was explaining how Asian business is very different than American business.

You get drinks first,

You meet each other's families,

You have dinner,

And then you talk about the contract later.

And they were saying how in China,

If you make an offhand remark,

If you insult someone by accident at a party,

They'll just rip up the contract.

If their son is in your town and you don't buy him dinner,

Those business deals off.

It's called man in rule instead of paper in rule,

I think is the term they use.

But it's all relationship.

It's completely feeling based,

Which is,

Yes,

I think it is a Western idea that everything's on paper is what matters.

Because it's all a zero,

Like with masculine dynamics,

It's all a zero sum game.

Like that's what I think you're describing.

Like what can I do for you without giving away too much that I can get what I want?

Whereas what you're describing is kind of like super win-win.

Yeah,

Like let me see how I can support you.

Yeah,

Make the pie bigger.

If everyone did this,

If you got on a call with someone or you had a name with someone and you showed up and said,

This is how I think I can help you,

And stop,

And just let the other person talk,

Let them ask you,

Wait,

What can I do for you?

Because they're going to be so confused and happily surprised that you just won't help them,

That they're going to genuinely want to help you and probably do more for you than what they thought they were going to.

Yeah.

So maybe that's a bottom thing.

Yeah,

I'm trying not to use that word.

That's bottoming for sure.

It's also child-do-you-need-reciprocation principle to put a more masculine spin on it.

Okay,

So I wanted to speak to you about your past because I think it actually makes your present so much more interesting.

I don't know enough about it.

I read that one article you wrote about your experience in the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Can you speak a little bit on that?

Yeah,

So I grew up,

I was born into a religion called Jehovah's Witnesses and my entire family are witnesses.

My great-grandmother just passed away recently at 102 and she was a witness.

Like,

All sides of my family,

Everyone.

So every person I've ever known growing up and my friend group,

My whole community were all witnesses.

I got married when I was 18.

Is that because it was community standard to get married that young?

No,

It wasn't encouraged but you are not supposed to have sex before you get married.

I met a guy.

Oh,

You wanted to know.

So once you start dating,

People expect you to get engaged within six months.

That's pretty standard.

So I think they encourage you just not to start dating until you're ready for marriage.

So I just happened to start that younger than most people.

So no one dates in high school?

No,

It's like,

Yeah,

Totally not.

I like told my boyfriend,

I kissed him,

I was expecting what my dad found out.

And my dad also is super controlling.

I have a dysfunctional family already.

My dad was abusive and then we had the dysfunction of the religion.

So it was like double dysfunction.

And then when I was 24,

I wanted to get divorced.

I didn't have anyone on the side.

I wasn't dating anyone else.

I just didn't want to be married to this person anymore and I didn't want this life anymore.

You were married for six years.

Yeah.

So I tried to make it work.

I'm like,

You know,

You go and talk to the religious leaders and they just keep telling you to lean in more,

To pray and you'll fall in love with them.

Like God will help you put effort into it.

And I really took to heart the fact that I was an adult and I made an adult decision to get married and I tried my best to follow that.

It's so funny to look at my life today.

Like I feel like I live a very different life.

I'm a different person.

I was like a housewife.

We had a house,

I pick a fence,

A dog.

I worked a law firm full time.

I went to school at nighttime.

This is when you were a New Yorker?

No,

I lived in Salt Lake.

My ex-husband is from Salt Lake.

So I moved there because he had a good job there.

And so when I got divorced,

We signed.

I'm just curious,

How did you meet in 18?

So you didn't go to high school together?

No,

I moved out when I was 17.

My parents split up the summer I graduated high school.

The parents are from Oregon,

So I moved there and lived with my aunt for a while.

And then I moved to Salt Lake when I turned 18 because I had friends.

Your parents got divorced?

Yeah,

Well eventually.

And that was a big deal too because my dad was just so abusive to my mom.

She finally just couldn't deal with it anymore.

And that was a big deal in our religion and she got like recruited for it and everything.

She didn't get kicked out of the church,

But she got recruited for asking for a divorce.

Because in the church you're only allowed to get a divorce if someone dies or if someone sleeps with someone else.

So for me,

I applied for a legal divorce and because I went to a law firm,

It was like the fastest divorce ever.

I got approved within two weeks.

And so on paper I was legally divorced,

But spiritually,

This is what they call it,

Spiritually I was still married to this person.

And that meant that he wasn't allowed to get remarried either until we were officially divorced.

Like he was in the religion.

So six months after we signed the papers,

I slept with someone else and I told the religious leaders that I slept with someone else.

And they,

Within 10 minutes,

Were like,

We're excommunicating you from the church.

And I was like,

Okay.

Because usually that's not how it works.

Usually it's like,

Okay,

Well don't do it again and we'll give you a private reproof and get some privileges taken away,

But you're not kicked out.

So from 18 until this point,

24,

How emotionally or intellectually committed to the religion were you?

Oh my God,

I was like a full-time minister.

I was as committed as you can be.

But I think it's also my community service side.

Like I just love helping people,

So I volunteered a lot.

But what about in the ideology?

Because when you came to the religious leaders to say this,

You must have known you're kind of,

You're saying something they really weren't going to like.

Yeah.

And also it was my ex-husband's family who were the religious leaders.

So it was all like a white male club and they got it aside.

But I think in my mind I wanted to be done with him.

So I was like,

We,

And this is how crazy it is.

In that religion,

You know,

People do get divorced.

Sometimes they'll hire private investigators and to go spy on the other person to see if they're with someone else just so they can go start dating again.

Because they're not allowed to date.

Like if I had just left and fallen off the face of the earth,

He would never have been able to get remarried.

Because he was still married to me spiritually.

And so he got remarried within six months to like a high school sweetheart apparently.

And I was like,

That's fine.

Well,

First off,

He tried to kill himself twice and he blamed it on me.

Like he wouldn't let anyone else in the room.

And so I went and got him and took him to the ER.

And he was like,

This is all your fault.

We need to come back with me.

We need to be a family again.

And in my head I'm thinking,

You're crazy.

And no,

This is solidifying my decision.

This is the reason why I shouldn't be here.

You know,

I need to go take care of myself.

I was in such an unhealthy situation.

So then I moved to Costa Rica and I moved to New York and I still tried to get reinstated into the church because I couldn't talk to my family.

So that's how they hold it against you.

My whole family wouldn't talk to me anymore.

And I got it.

I did everything.

So they make you go to church.

You're not allowed to talk to anyone in church.

You're like this invisible person.

You go and sit in church on Sundays and people walk right by you and don't say anything to you.

And then you're not allowed to speak to anyone who's not a witness to wilderness.

So I technically was not supposed to speak to anyone,

Anyone,

Have any friends for two years.

And it's the most depressed I've ever been in my life because I'm 99% extroverted.

And yeah,

Community is everything to me.

And I had that completely ripped away.

And you tried to do this for two years to get back in?

I did.

I went to church for two years and spoke to no one.

Wow.

And I just worked.

I was working at a law firm.

You're 28 now,

Right?

So this is not that long ago.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah,

So this was like four years,

Five years ago.

Yeah.

So yeah,

Basically just work.

I was a workaholic.

I just worked at my law firm in New York and went to the gym.

And that's all I did for two years.

And then I started working on this company and I got the,

They announced that I was reinstated in the church,

Like the week I moved to Europe.

And at that point,

Once I got reinstated,

I talked to my family again.

I think all of it,

You're in survival mode trying to get to be able to talk to your family.

Right.

Like imagine being on a stranded island and you're just like,

I just want to see my family again.

But then you realize that you didn't have to be on that stranded island the whole time.

Some like middle-aged white men decided that you had to be there.

Yeah.

And that's when all the anger came back and I was like,

I can't,

I can't realistically put myself in a situation where like middle-aged white men get to decide whether I'm worthy of my family and my friends.

And that felt super unemotionally,

Super emotionally unsafe.

And I just,

I will never do that.

And I think especially women in the church,

They have so,

You're not allowed to,

Like my,

When I was married,

They wanted to discipline me.

They had to go tell my husband and my husband had to discipline me.

And I,

And also who the heck is disciplining people?

But what I mean is like,

Women are not allowed to have a voice and like your husband is your head.

And like,

It's very male dominated,

Very patriarchal.

And like,

Like,

So for me as a woman trying to get reinstated and I didn't have any men in my family that were high up in the church that could speak for me,

I was completely on my own.

And even your mother,

Like she was,

All of her family is still totally in it.

Yes.

Super in it.

My sister has a little baby girl who is going to be three this month.

And I only seen her once.

So I got reinstated and then I went back to California with an ex-boyfriend of mine.

He had a job in San Francisco as a developer.

So we were living there for the summer and went to go see my family.

And once they found out that I was living with a guy,

My boyfriend of two years,

They,

Um,

They said,

Yeah,

You're not good association.

I'm not going to hang out with you anymore.

So even though I'm raised and stated in the church,

They,

My family won't speak to this now,

To this day.

Um,

And that's super hurtful.

I'm really close to my two sisters.

I'm super close with them.

I love my niece.

My aunt was such a big part of my childhood and I want to be there for my niece.

Are you still close with your sisters?

I want to be,

But they won't speak to me.

Gotcha.

So I,

So that was another thing this week too,

Is like my little sister,

She really got kind of,

We all moved out when my parents got divorced.

She stayed with my dad and my dad is super abusive.

And so she was like 15 at the time.

I really realized to speak how much we all kind of left her behind.

And so she still lives at home and I think she's super depressed.

And so I've been calling her this week and was telling her that I love her.

And I was joking with my boyfriend that like,

If they're going to brainwash her with a religion,

You can brainwash her with love.

And he was like,

Maybe not brainwash,

Maybe you just love her.

And I'm like,

Okay,

Well I'll try.

I think brainwashing is great.

Good intentions.

Wow.

Thanks for sharing all that.

Does that answer your question?

I don't remember what my question was.

Sorry,

I guess I was rambling.

No,

No,

It's not because I mean,

I was in a similar system.

Some mechanisms were the same,

But I was only in there for two years.

So like some of the things you're sharing,

I can relate to,

But like in such a smaller scale,

Like it wasn't like my family ripped away.

It was like people I spent a lot of time with for two years ripped away and like,

It's not,

I know it's not the same thing.

So I can imagine the pain that goes with that.

Yeah.

I mean,

I think it's,

I think it's built into my body somehow.

There's like trauma in my body that I probably on a daily basis don't recognize because I have to live my life.

I also think the best way that I can show that I love them and be there for my family when they are,

When they come around one day,

It's just to live my fullest life,

You know,

Because in their religion,

They say,

If you leave,

You will always have a terrible life.

That's the way they try and brainwash me.

Like this is the best life you'll have in this religion.

And so I'm like,

I'm out here,

Like traveling to all these countries,

Building my business,

Going on adventures all the time.

I just booked my tickets to South Africa today.

I'm so excited about my life.

Yeah.

And I'm like,

Are you seeing Jesse out there?

Yeah,

I'm going to be staying with him.

Nice.

Anyway,

Yeah,

I like his Instagram photos.

Yeah,

He's making me a clothing line.

Yeah,

You mentioned,

That's really cool.

Jesse's a designer right now.

Yeah.

For context.

Yeah,

So how do you,

Coming back to the first topic of like how you help women help people,

How much of that do you bring with you?

Do you think?

I mean,

This is the only life you've lived,

So maybe it's a hard question to answer,

But.

You mean like how much is influenced by the other?

How you operate a business or how you build community.

I definitely think that a lot of it,

You know,

One thing,

Like there's been a lot of studies about travel services because they're very good at marketing.

They're very good at building communities and keeping people together.

And I think I got a crash course in that,

You know?

Yeah.

So I think if I can use that for good and then also take the things that I didn't like about that situation and try and do the opposite and empower women,

I think that that's,

Then like that's mission accomplished.

I've also had,

I was like really sexually abused as a child by a neighbor.

So I've had like all the terrible experiences you can have as a woman.

I've had them.

But I also live a very fulfilled and empowered life here.

So I think like just by being open about it and being like,

Yeah,

That happened to me,

But it doesn't define me,

You know?

And I've worked through it and I confronted the person.

I turned them into the police.

Like I have all these stories of where I've like stepped up for myself and if I can show that to women,

I think like that can be really powerful.

And not even with me,

I have a lot of guys that come to me for business consulting and just for a pep talk.

I'm always there for my friends,

You know?

Because I think if we all can just help each other out,

Then we can be better people.

It's all about your support network,

You know?

Yeah.

I'm super introverted.

So a lot of like your views are kind of like alien to me.

Like the idea of like,

I don't know how many events you go to in a week.

It seems like a lot.

I'm like,

Oh my God.

But I,

Like when we first met actually,

I had the same like kind of skepticism,

Like what does she want?

Because like she really is out here building community and meeting cool people.

So I was curious about that.

Why is everyone so,

Why do people think that's not real?

I'm a little jaded.

Maybe it's because I grew up in New York.

Remember I'm just jaded about things.

I just assume like when someone,

Like I get added,

You added me randomly on Facebook.

When people add me randomly on Facebook,

They usually,

Not usually,

I shouldn't say,

I shouldn't be this cynical.

But half the time they want something from me that I don't want to give,

You know?

It's like I was a little like,

I was like,

Oh,

This person actually just wants to get to know me.

How nice.

I'm going to support her dream as best I can.

I do know that I don't normally add people like that on Facebook.

Okay.

I didn't know.

I don't know.

I'm the one that gets hundreds of ads a day and I'm just like,

Can't believe it.

Do you mind hitting that light?

Yeah.

All of them?

No,

The middle one's the bathroom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So also like when you're,

I don't know if you're still going to do this,

But I know you're trying to take over a hotel and build like a,

Like,

I would totally love to live in a space curated by you.

Because like I'd be,

Oh,

There's nothing,

She's not going to sell me into some course or something.

It's just actually a community.

Yeah.

I think that that's,

You know,

So many people when they travel and work remotely,

They just want to show up and know that everything is taken care of.

So we're building out a landing package where airport pick up,

SIM card where you live,

Co-work and your whole community is built into one.

Yeah.

Well,

The community,

I mean,

I already have a home here.

It's like to be around cool people that have been curated is huge because like,

I'm so introverted that could go months without,

Actually I've been in Chiang Mai for like three months.

I think the first time I actually went out was when you invited me out like three weeks ago or something.

It's like,

I could totally like forget to do this.

That's funny because I'm so extroverted that it,

You know,

Like when we did dinner last week,

I put together a group chat and like 25 people showed up the next day for dinner.

Yeah.

And that's just normal.

And those are people that are my close friends in town.

That's not like the wider network of people that are like,

What are we doing?

Can you make an event?

Yeah.

So I don't know.

I think I have a thing where I can see very clearly through people so I know who to invest in my energy.

But yeah,

Like you were saying,

There are a lot of people who just want something,

Things from you.

Sometimes it's not a big deal.

I'm being a little cynical,

I think,

But sometimes they just want attention.

There's some neediness.

And yeah,

I appreciated that.

I haven't felt that from you ever.

Well,

I don't think that's me.

I don't.

Well,

If I do need something,

I'll say it clearly.

I'll just be like,

Hey,

I need help with this.

If you can't help me,

No worries.

I think it's really important when you're asking for support or help to always give the person an out.

Because maybe they do want to help,

But they don't have time or they're not able to do it in the way you need.

And you don't need to make a conflict out of it.

Where it's like,

Oh,

You don't support me when I'm not friends.

That's stupid.

But I will say,

You know,

Like,

I was just talking to girlfriends about this last night.

Like so many people reach out to me about sharing mine specifically because I've been here for years.

I used to manage the co-working space,

Well,

I used to do all the events here.

A lot of men that reach out to me,

The conversation,

If I do choose to help them or say like,

They'll ask me where to stay,

What apartment to stay in or whatever.

Sometimes I try to be helpful if I can,

Right?

But I've started to help a lot less men because then the conversation turns to,

I'm not even joking.

What are you doing next week?

Yeah,

Like,

Oh,

I literally had this guy tell me,

Oh,

Are you married?

And I just avoided the thing and I just gave him the information he asked for about the apartment.

And he just kept going.

He was like,

Hey,

Beautiful.

Why aren't you telling me if you're single or not?

And I wrote back to him and I said,

Look,

I'm giving you all of this value.

You know,

Like I'm a business consultant and I'm taking time out of my day to help you get set up here.

Why are you being creepy right now?

Like,

You don't need to do this.

And then he just,

He hearted the comment and then continued to be creepy.

And if he's an RA,

He's not like this old creepy guy.

I immediately imagined like an old Arab dude.

No,

He's like,

Trying his early thirties or something.

And it's just so disappointing because I'm like,

You really aren't making men look good right now because I'm giving you every out of the book to just snap out of it and be normal.

And you know what?

When I posted about our dinner last week,

He wrote on that post,

Oh,

Can I come to your guys's dinner next time?

And I just blocked him because I was like,

You're being creepy and you also expect me to invite you to my things and that those two do not go together.

Yeah.

Someone you met,

I mean,

Scarcity,

Sexual scarcity in men is a thing.

Hold on.

Explain that to me.

How does that situation equal sexual scarcity?

It's that to him,

Female attention is such a valuable thing that he'll compromise.

Because I assume he's probably not the,

If I met him,

I probably wouldn't think he's that weird.

Something about him,

I assume comes out when he gets attention from a woman,

Which is like,

I'm getting attention from a woman.

Everything,

You know,

I'm willing to compromise everything about being a normal person.

It's like,

They're so thirsty for this thing.

It's like,

If you're starving,

You do some shit for food.

And I think,

Yeah,

All the quote unquote toxic male behaviors comes from scarcity of something.

But even if you're thinking from a logical perspective,

It doesn't make sense for him to ask for a ton of advice.

So,

I'm looking at it as almost a business transaction,

Right?

And then just go straight to like sexual harassment.

Like if I keep saying no.

Yeah,

Logic's out the window.

This is like,

My logical brain is like,

Those things don't go together.

Why would you do that?

Yeah.

Well,

This guy,

I assume,

Probably has not had much success with women.

Probably has not gotten much loving attention.

So,

For him,

Everything's a Hail Mary.

Like,

It's probably not going to work,

But I'm just going to try it.

Maybe one out of a thousand will say yes kind of thing.

Do you think they're only like that online or do you think they're like that with women in person?

I think online,

It doesn't feel real online.

I mean,

Like the same people who write really terrible trolling comments would probably not say that to someone's face ever.

You know,

Like,

You know,

You get extra confidence and you could hide behind your laptop.

I also notice sometimes if I do see a guy be creepy towards me or troll me online,

I'll click on their profile and they have like this submissive Thai wife.

And that just really bothers me.

Because I'm like,

You're basically creating a world where because you're Western,

You probably have money that you can spend in Thailand,

You get a wife who only cares about your money.

So,

She'll say yes to whatever.

And then you're like reinforcing your fake world and then you're going online and like being aggressive towards a woman who's being confident.

Yeah.

It makes me sad.

All this pain.

All this pain in the world.

Like for me,

I just kind of like laugh at it.

I'm like,

You have such a sad life that,

You know,

I had this guy like go through every single article that had ever been written about me,

Go through my LinkedIn and create a timeline of what he thought my life was.

And like things that he thought I had lied about in my business.

He sent a student a message?

He posted it on a Facebook group.

Like people in Chiang Mai.

And I got notified of it because people sent a screenshot to me.

I wasn't even in this Facebook group.

So then I joined it and I was like,

Hi,

I'm here.

And then I happened to be,

It was the day of my women's festival.

And so I said,

Oh,

I'd love to comment on this,

But I'm organizing the festival.

Everyone's invited to come.

And then people were like,

Oh my God,

The troll just got trolled.

Because I was just like,

So I was like,

Ah,

This is making me famous.

It's putting this much effort into this,

You know.

And he just didn't respond.

Of course.

So,

I mean,

I.

It's like if you punch a bully in the nose.

Or you can just laugh at them,

You know,

Like that to me is like a funnier thing to do.

Because I,

Instead of wasting time getting upset about it,

I'm just like,

You're sad and you're pathetic.

And go live your sad life and I'm going to go run a festival here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the only way to do it trolls.

Cool.

We're about to play board games soon.

It's board game,

Right?

I know,

I'm so excited.

I feel like I probably have more questions,

But they're not coming to me in this moment.

But I'm glad we hit all these things.

I learned more about you.

Yeah.

I'm glad that we did too.

Anything you want to plug?

How can people find out about your women's work,

Your consulting work?

Yeah,

So I have a YouTube channel called Remote Collective.

And it's all about me traveling and working remotely around the world.

And then I organize a women's festival every year.

My last name is Bond.

So,

The Bond Women's Festival dot com.

Bond Women's Festival dot com.

That's what I'm talking about.

And if you're coming to Chiang Mai,

You probably will see me somewhere.

Yeah.

Lying or offline because I'm everywhere.

So,

Yeah,

Reach out to me,

But don't be creepy.

Yeah,

Don't be creepy.

And that will work out.

Fellas,

Ladies too.

Yeah.

Don't be creepy ladies.

But yeah,

Thank you for having me on here.

Yeah.

Hey,

Thanks for listening to the podcast.

If you want to catch the rest of my work,

Go to Luwondo dot com.

Catch me on social media at Luwondo.

And please do not forget to subscribe.

Bye.