Talking Love With Sharon Salzberg

This is an excerpt from the Look Again Podcast. This is a clip from an episode where we interviewed Sharon Salzberg. We discuss acceptance, the definition of love, tough love, loving communication, and other topics.

Please note: This podcast contains explicit language.

Transcript

Well,

I mean,

There's a lot of conditioning,

You know,

That we're incomplete without someone else's approval or a lot of people don't even know what they feel.

And we kind of count on that reflection from somebody else to know who we are.

You know,

We forget that.

Of course we enjoy it.

I mean,

These things are delightful and wonderful and we have a connection,

But nothing stays exactly the same.

And if we're counting on it to stay the same,

Then we're really lost,

You know?

Or if we think like,

I've got to have this kind of acclaim from everybody,

You know,

Like 100% of the people who hear me give a talk must love it,

You know,

Which is lost because that'll never happen.

Someone's in a bad mood.

It has nothing to do with us even,

You know,

Like someone won the lottery.

They're in a great mood,

You know,

They didn't care.

That's what we say.

You know,

But we take everything so personally and usually,

And you know,

We have to understand that things are,

People change and they go through stuff that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with us.

You know,

We get more joy out of sheer connection and generosity than we will out of needing someone to be a certain way.

When we're not,

I mean,

We're in a not so suitable living or family situation and talk about one version of the way love shows up.

How can we work with what we got and also more of our definition to suit a bigger idea of love?

One of the things I really emphasize in what I teach these days is that love is like an interstate,

Like you said,

And the action that we take,

You know,

What we say to somebody or the sense we create or whatever it might be is also based on discernment or wisdom.

You know,

It's like we tend to morph those things together,

You know,

And we say,

Well,

You didn't give them any money,

Therefore you're not loving,

You know,

Or you're not compassionate.

But maybe you have like deep compassion,

But you also have some compassion for yourself and you have some discernment.

Like I gave them 58 times and didn't pay it back,

You know,

So I can't really enable them in that way anymore or whatever.

You know,

So,

You know,

Love can manifest in a billion different ways,

Much more fierce and creating space for yourself because you can't too.

And so I would really try to separate the loving heart from the action we deem that's wisest to take in some situation.

I also go back to the Buddhist statement about speech,

Where he said,

Say that which is true and that which is useful.

And so that might mean really deeply listening inside.

Like,

You know,

Sometimes people want to say something really malicious,

True,

But malicious about somebody else.

And if you just stop and think,

Well,

Is this going to do anybody any good,

You know,

To know this or,

You know,

What if I set this person against this other person?

Am I going to get any benefit from that?

You know,

Anybody that you just stop and you don't go there.

Yeah,

I feel like that's so hard to do,

Particularly in close relationships,

To not say those hard things about people that may not benefit anyone,

But it's just built up inside of you.

And if you don't have an even,

I mean,

Like I know I meditate every day.

I can't remember the last day I skipped a meditation,

But it's like,

I still have those moments where emotions well up at me and those things come out.

I feel bad about it on the back end and know that it's not serving me at all or serving the universe at all.

But I mean,

It still happens.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Well,

You know,

Like life is about beginning again,

You know,

So we have to have ways of doing that too and saying,

I'm sorry,

I blew it.

You know,

I meant to not do that on you.

You know,

I meant to just release some of my frustration.

But then you have to ask like,

What is loving holding the thing you need to say back or like actually saying it in some way,

I guess some positions are really hard to explain with a lover or family member or any situation that you're connected with when in a friendship or just a relationship in general.

But I guess what love would do is find a compassionate way to say what needs to be said.

Well,

Again,

You know,

I try to separate the sort of intention behind something from manifestation because there is such a thing as tough love,

You know,

Such a thing as fierce compassion.

So I wouldn't limit a loving expression to being sweet and nice and compliant and saying,

Yes,

You know,

You might be really fierce and intense and have a strong boundary and say no,

But it doesn't mean you have to have hatred in your heart.

Is there a difference between fierce compassion and tough love?

Or would you consider those the same?

I consider them like the same.

Okay.

You know,

It's like a strong action coming from a caring place.

Yeah,

Yeah.

I mean,

I think that's important because,

You know,

Oftentimes the things that people need to hear,

They don't really want to hear,

You know,

So I think that,

You know,

If you do really love somebody,

You sometimes just got to say it,

You know,

And I think whether you are saying it with like intensity or you have the,

You're trying to be sweet,

Whatever it is,

I think the overall point is,

Hey,

Look,

You know,

I think so long as the message is I'm doing this because I care about you,

This needed to be said and you needed to hear this and it may not be what you wanted to hear right now,

But trust me,

This is,

You're not,

You're not seeing this correctly or you're not doing whatever it is that you're trying to say to them.

You know what I mean?

I think it's important for people when they see something and they feel a certain way and they're adamant about it and they're like,

Man,

I think this could help.

I think it should be said.

Yeah.

I feel like if you're hesitant to say it,

But you're trying to find a skillful way to say it and you know they're not going to like it,

But you say it anyways,

That's kind of where the tough love comes in because you love them enough to step in an uncomfortable situation for yourself and for them.

And I really think that you would have to really take the emotion out of the delivery because sometimes if you have that emotion involved,

That's when you know a heated argument or you will say something that you regret will come up.

So you know,

Definitely taking the emotion out of the delivery will definitely help out as well.

Yeah,

But I still,

I feel like sometimes that emotion is what helps people hear it sometimes.

Like I feel like sometimes if someone's going through something tough and you're talking to them and you're really calm about it,

It kind of breezes over the shoulder when they feel in the moment,

They might not like that passion and that fire behind what you're saying,

But if it's,

I think like Andy and Sharon were saying,

If it's coming from that place of love and it's got that,

The delivery might not be what they want,

But it's what they need in that moment,

I think they're more likely to hear it once they sit back and reflect on what was being said.

But you know,

I mean you're a dad,

Right?

Oh yeah.

He's been practicing.

Yeah,

Right.

It's true.

I don't think everything you said is true.

And there's also,

We can learn some skills,

You know?

Like you don't want to say to a kid ever,

You're a bad kid.

Like even though they just did something dangerous and you're freaked out,

You know,

There's probably another way of saying it.

I guess I need to stop saying that,

Huh?

No,

I'm totally joking.

I'll never say that to my kids.

I'm totally joking.

But it's like that global condemnation and like one of the,

I guess,

Basic principles of better communication is be specific,

You know?

It's like if you're supervising someone at work,

It doesn't help that much to say you're an idiot,

You know?

You're also not giving them the information they would need if they choose to want to change,

You know?

So in order to,

Depending on your motivation,

But if your motivation is to be helpful and not to be hurtful,

You know,

You have to have some specificity there.

But tell me about talking to your kids.

So I feel like with my kids,

I try,

I always try,

My first delivery is always the calm one.

Like the,

Hey,

You guys need to do this.

Hey,

You guys need to do this.

And every once in a while you gotta,

I mean,

You gotta show your fangs,

I feel like,

As a parent.

Like you can't be like the Papa Bear and just sit back and be like Yogi Bear all the time.

You gotta give them the Grizzly Bear every once in a while.

But I mean,

Let them know.

Like even in moments when I do that,

I feel like afterwards I'll sit down with my sons and talk to them about like,

Okay,

You understand why I delivered this message in this way.

Like I love you more than anything on this planet.

But you weren't listening.

Like we've,

This is the fifth time we've gone over this,

Right?

They'll be like,

Yeah,

It's the fifth time we've gone over it.

And it's like,

And it's the same thing.

I feel like there's running themes with the things I choose to use those delivery,

Like the delivery of those messages in that way on.

So like they know,

Particularly my oldest son,

My oldest son's 12.

So we've,

We've been going through it for a while.

My youngest son's seven,

So he's still getting his feet under him.

But my 12 year old in particular,

Asuma,

Will have conversations where there's certain things that he knows I get upset with him about.

And it's,

And it's just because I want the best for him.

And after I do get upset with him,

We'll have,

We'll sit down and give him a big hug and we'll have a conversation about it.

So it's,

He knows why I'm getting upset.

And it's just cause I want,

I want the best for him.

I love him so much.

I don't want to see him sell himself short.

I think just people want to avoid confrontation.

You know,

They don't want to stir the pot that much.

So when they are faced with these scenarios,

I think oftentimes it's like,

You know,

I could say this,

But God,

There's so much is going to come from this.

You know,

Maybe I can just let it be.

And I,

And I can continue to be comfortable and just let them work it out themselves.

I feel like that's a common thing that people do.

And I don't know if it's really the right thing to do.

You know,

I feel like that breeds resentment.

Exactly.

Like you just have to resent somebody.

If you just hold onto it for that long and you're constantly holding onto it and holding onto it,

Like it may not come out in your words,

But it's going to come out in your actions and your energy and the way that you treat that person eventually.

I agree.

I agree.

I mean,

Going back to the emotions thing,

Like I'm not really sure if you do have to get your emotions into delivering a tough love type of message.

I think you can still deliver it because y'all know me.

Y'all remember when,

You know,

I used to roll with anger and yell all the time when I'm trying to deliver a point.

I never got the desired results.

I can say now,

You know,

I'm still dealing with a lot of stress and chaos,

But I'm alleviating it out of my life by directly doing some tough love with keeping the emotion out of it.

I don't think I'm talking about like anger.

I think I'm talking more like in a passionate delivery.

You know what I mean?

Like not just like coming from a place of anger where you're just trying to tear that person down,

But delivering what you have to say in a more passionate manner so that they understand like the gravity and the sincerity behind what you're saying.

I think that that's totally true.

One thing that I've definitely noticed with myself is just that,

Like I said,

Once again,

Y'all know I can get emotional in my delivery if I'm upset about something,

But you know,

I've had a couple things to be upset about in these last couple months and I've really handled them in a very diplomatic way in my opinion.

I've gotten the desired results and I've just been more articulate about expressing why there is a disagreement.

I think there's a difference when you have those situations with people that are close to you and in your circle all the time.

You know what I mean?

I feel like there's a difference if you have a disagreement like that or you have something you need to passionately say to someone that's not in your circle,

You don't have to deal with.

It's easier to kind of not deal with it or push it away,

But if it's someone like my kids like I have to deal with,

Like I can't not have that discussion or if it's like your significant other,

You can't not have that,

But if it's someone on the periphery,

I think it's easier to do,

But I feel like the closer they are to you,

The more you have to get out and sometimes you have to let them know how passionate you are about something because that's the only way they're going to get it.

I think the follow up is the key to that.

With my sons,

I always have that follow up.

They may be a little angry with me,

They may be a little upset,

But I feel like they always get a big hug after those conversations and we also have sit down and not just me talking at them,

But us having a discussion back and forth about what that was about,

Why was I so passionate with my delivery,

Why was I so upset with you in that moment and not me telling them,

But they have to answer the question for me.

So I feel like sometimes you got to let them know what you're fired up about.

I agree with you kids.

Yeah,

I think that I think y'all are saying the same thing.

You know what I mean?

It's a level thing,

Like if we were measuring it.

I think back in the day,

I mean when you would get frustrated if it was the Richter scale,

You would be off the Richter scale sometimes when it's your delivery.

Where now you're still,

It's on the scale,

It's just like a 3.

5 or something like that or a four.

I think that's what he's saying is he starts out as just a one,

Or it's a tremor or whatever.

But sometimes you might have to move it up a little to like a three just to let them know like,

Hey man.

I'm serious about this.

You really need to either stop doing this or we need to talk about this.

It's that fierce,

What was the way?

Compassion.

Fierce love.

Reviews

Expressing something with fierce compassion with a follow up talk is a really helpful and healthy communication tip. Thank you for sharing this honest and relatable discussion.

Really clear honest loving sharing and reflections. Thank you.

Thank you 🙏

Excellent...Thank you 🙏

That was a great talk excerpt, love to hear more. As a single mom with two teenagers I'm an dealing with issues daily in which I must check my communication style. Often I get it right, sometimes they listen and learn, often I snap as I'm repeating myself, over and over and over ........ Yet, like was said, kids are the most important things in our lives, whom we love more than anything, and the goal is to do it right.
🙏✌🏻🌎

Great discussion about compassionate resolve in the moments of conflict. You guys are great! I really enjoyed listening.