Why We Practice | 1st ‘Ask Us Anything’ W/ Denny Miu 8/26/20

This podcast discusses the following topics: 1)The importance and intent of/for (a) daily (meditation) practice (for ourselves and how to help aspiring meditators) 2)The importance of feedback on/about/in/with/for meditation training/practice—including feedback from self, spiritual friends and teacher(s) 3)The Buddha’s four ways to answer questions 4)Practice wisdom and lessons during lockdown 5)How to establish a formal meditation practice

Transcript

So we have Josh and Helen with us today.

Hopefully this would be an ongoing event.

We've been talking about this for a long time,

Having some kind of regular event.

When we first talked about it,

We called this AUA,

Ask Us Anything.

Josh kind of just mentioned that a couple of days ago,

We thought that maybe we should try it once.

So let me,

I guess most of you know me.

My name is Danny Meehl.

And I have with me Josh,

Josh Dippot,

Right?

Dipold.

Dipold,

Sorry.

Strange last name,

Surname.

Dipold,

Yeah.

Okay.

Hey Josh,

Why don't you introduce yourself?

Well,

You were born in Missouri,

Very close to,

I think in fact you were born in St.

Louis,

Weren't you not?

Well,

No,

Not necessarily.

So I was actually born in Cape Girardeau.

So it's about an hour and a half away on the interstate.

And I grew up in Southeast Missouri and went to school in Columbia,

Missouri for a couple of years,

Dropped out,

Worked for about 10 years there and then moved to St.

Louis in about 2012.

And the other day when we talk about the theme and the people we should invite,

I think I mentioned,

I guess I'm kind of confused.

I think there's a saying about the 12 degrees of separation and then there's another one,

Kind of the reversal that which is six degrees of connection,

Something like that,

Right?

Correct me if I'm wrong,

Something like that.

So I'm hoping more and more people will join,

But on the other hand,

I think just having this regular forum,

Connecting with people who are watching would be already a very nice thing.

And so what is that degree of connections that you and I have?

Well,

Before we start off here and dive in,

I just want to give a disclaimer that probably some of the stuff I'll be mentioning and talking about obviously don't take it as at face value or as truth or anything like that.

It's just a reference for everybody to do their own due diligence.

And sometimes I'm not the greatest at giving the exact source material.

I just happen to remember things like,

So if I mentioned sutta,

Sutta or just different things that I don't remember where it came from,

It could just be a starting point for your own research and whatnot.

So our connection,

Denny,

Is,

Well,

We first met out at MABHA,

Mid America Buddhist Association on retreat,

Right?

Okay.

So you want to,

And I think we hit it off right away and just kind of how enthusiastic we were and are about practice,

Meditation practice.

Just a great opportunity we had there too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the reason I kind of couch our conversation that way is as much as we talk about the connection and we'll elaborate on that,

But I just want to make sure that we don't represent anybody.

We don't represent our teacher.

We don't represent a particular lineage of Buddhist practice.

We just represent us.

So you and I get together for this because we do have at least one degree of connection,

Which is that we share the same Nama master,

Master Jiru,

Who is a very interesting person and hopefully we'll talk more about him.

And hey,

It looks like Holly is joining us.

Hey,

Holly.

I was just talking about the degree of connection between Josh and I,

But as it turns out,

You,

The three of us share the same degrees of connection,

Which is that we have the same Nama master.

And I just,

I mentioned Master Jiru's name.

But so,

So,

So in any case,

So,

So Josh and I,

As Josh was saying that we met at one of the retreats in Augusta,

Missouri,

Which is an hour drive from St.

Louis.

And then the other time,

The other times that we followed up with relationship was actually a three day meditation retreat in last December.

Right.

Burlingame,

California.

Yeah.

Burlingame,

California.

Oh,

Yeah.

So we're hoping that,

So we kind of put that out there and then,

But what we're really hoping to do is use this forum to kind of talk about more on a,

Can I use the word academic or more technical?

What is the word?

Well,

I think this is almost an experiment now.

We kind of talked about,

Yeah,

We could talk about,

Yeah,

Academic,

Maybe a scholarly approach,

But also practice based too.

So if we just want to jump right into that,

That's,

I'm,

I'm good with that as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well,

How about,

How about we do this?

How about we do this?

We kind of go around the table and kind of say,

Hey,

How,

How,

You know,

What,

What is,

What is the,

What is the quote unquote practice?

What does it mean to you?

All right.

You want to do that first,

Josh?

What is your practice?

Well,

What are you trying to do?

Not necessarily.

So I was actually born in Cape Girardeau,

So it's about an hour and a half away on the interstate.

So that's,

And then I grew up in Southeast Missouri and went to school in Columbia,

Missouri for a couple of years,

Dropped out,

Worked for about 10 years there and then moved to St.

Louis in about 2012.

Well,

The other day when,

When we,

When we talk about the theme and the people we should invite,

I think I mentioned,

I guess I'm kind of confused.

I think there's a saying about the 12 degrees of separation and then there's another one,

Kind of the reverse of that,

Which is six degrees of,

Of connection,

Something like that.

Right.

Correct me if I'm wrong,

Something like that.

So,

So I'm hoping more and more people will join,

But,

But on the other hand,

I think just having this regular forum,

Connecting with people who are,

Who are watching would be already a very nice thing.

And so what is that,

What is the degree of connections that you and I have?

Well,

Before we start off here and dive in,

I just want to give a disclaimer that probably some of the stuff I'll be mentioning and talking about,

Obviously don't take it as at face value or as a truth or anything like that.

It's just a reference for everybody to do their own due diligence.

And sometimes I'm not the greatest at giving the exact source material.

I just happen to remember things like,

So if I mentioned sutta,

Sutta's or just different things that I don't remember where it came from,

It could just be a starting point for your own research and whatnot.

So our connection,

Denny,

Is,

Well,

We,

We first met out at MABBA,

Right?

Mid America Buddhist Association on retreat.

Right.

Okay.

So,

So you want to,

And I think we hit it off right away and just kind of how enthusiastic we were,

We were and are about practice,

Meditation practice.

Just a great opportunity we had there too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So,

So the reason I,

I kind of couch our conversation that way is,

Is as much as we talk about the connection and we'll elaborate on that.

But I just want to make sure that we don't represent anybody.

We don't represent our teacher.

We don't represent a particular lineage of Buddhist practice.

We just represent us.

Right.

And so,

So you and I get together for this because we do have at least one degree of connection,

Which is that we share the same Dharma Master,

Master,

Master Jiru,

Who,

Who,

Who is a very interesting person.

And hopefully we'll,

We'll,

We'll talk more about him and hey,

It looks like Holly is joining us.

Hey Holly.

I was just talking about the,

The degree of connection between Josh and I,

But as it turns out,

You,

The three of us share the same degrees of connection,

Which is that we have the same Dharma Master and I just,

I mentioned Master Jiru's name.

But so,

So,

So in any case,

So,

So Josh and I,

As Josh was saying that we met at one of the retreat in,

In August,

Augusta,

Missouri,

Which is an hour drive from St.

Louis.

And then the other time,

The other times that we followed up with relationship was actually a three day meditation retreat in last December.

Right.

Burlingame,

California.

Yeah.

Burlingame,

California.

Oh yeah.

So we're,

We're hoping that,

So we kind of put that out there and then,

But what we're really hoping to do is,

Is,

Is use this forum to kind of talk about more on,

On a,

Can I use the word academic or more technical?

What should,

What is the word?

Well,

I think we're,

This is almost an experiment now.

We kind of talked about,

Yeah,

We could talk about,

Yeah,

Academic,

Maybe a scholarly approach,

But also practice based too.

So if we just want to jump right into that,

That's,

I'm,

I'm good with that as well.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well,

How about,

How about we do this?

How about we do this?

We kind of go around the table and kind of say,

Hey,

How,

How,

You know,

What,

What is,

What is the,

What is the quote unquote practice?

What does it mean to you?

All right.

You want to do that first,

Josh?

What is your,

What are you trying to achieve?

Right?

That's,

That's,

That's a great thing.

Yes.

And also I think the intent is really important in practice,

Something I don't reflect on enough because it all comes back to it.

Why are we doing this?

You know,

What is the purpose behind this?

And I just think it's so manifold,

The benefits and reasons and purposes and,

And what kind of the end goal is.

Right.

So,

I mean,

It has just layer upon layer of that.

I guess I can go into that a little bit,

But,

If I may,

If I may,

Josh,

I,

You know,

I'm always pretending that there are other people watching this,

You know,

Like,

This is,

This is my thing.

You know,

Like you create all these,

All these followers,

You know,

Thousands and thousands of them.

So I gotta,

I gotta make sure that they understand what we're talking about first,

You know,

Cause I don't want to lose them.

This is one of the things that I learned from business is that you don't ever lose a customer.

You know,

It's hard enough to get them,

But once you get them,

You don't want to lose them.

On the audience side.

So I want to make sure that people understand that when,

What,

When we talk about practice,

We're talking about meditation.

Okay.

And there's so many different ways to explain that.

So,

So I,

So,

So,

So,

Josh,

Go ahead.

Sorry for interrupting.

Yeah.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I forget who the potential audience is anybody.

Right.

Pretty much.

So,

So yeah,

It's like,

And then I would say the core maybe is what I'm talking about is a formal meditation practice with majority on the sitting,

Even though that's not,

That's only a very tiny portion of it,

But I'll just maybe keep it at that for now.

So like on the cushion,

They call that too.

So the benefits are just the every day for everybody.

The,

I mean,

I'm sure everybody's heard about meditation,

Right?

So the benefits are really obvious.

Like less stress,

Calm blood pressure.

I had psoriasis and that's actually a scientific thing that it helps with that.

And that went away when I started this.

Yeah.

Just,

But it's called practice,

I think for a reason,

Because,

Um,

It's to better meet our everyday lives.

So where we come from a place of responding instead of reacting.

So it,

It allows more of a space where we have a choice on how we respond to our everyday situations that are everyday lives instead of being on autopilot,

Um,

Acting out habit patterns.

Um,

And just reacting out of habit,

Uh,

Seems like way a lot of times.

So it provides a space to allow to open up and be able to respond for me to be able to respond to situations instead of just reacting.

It's the ultimate personal space.

Yes.

And it's a space between your mind and your brain,

Right?

We always think that the mind and the brain are one of the same,

But they're actually,

It's actually not.

Yeah.

Cause you can actually physically find the brain.

I don't know where the mind is.

You know,

We can't,

We can't hunt that down.

We can't Google it.

Um,

And so the original question was,

Uh,

You know,

Why are we doing this?

Is that,

Is that what it was?

Yes.

Okay.

The intent.

So then on,

On,

On a higher level,

It just,

Um,

It's more,

You know,

We talk about,

Um,

There's a sudden awakening,

Right?

And then gradual awakening.

So the ultimate goal is to awaken and be free.

So the,

The awake,

Uh,

Awakening.

So it just means to,

To be less ignorant,

Um,

And to have,

Um,

Freedom.

Um,

A lot of times freedom from things.

So freedom from stress and suffering.

Um,

And it just gradually,

Um,

Increases that type of freedom.

Um,

Like I said earlier,

It allows choice and more choices to,

To,

To be able to see more choices available and just to,

Um,

Know what,

What choices are skillful,

Wise and wholesome.

Um,

That just becomes more self apparent.

It's kind of hard to explain like that.

Um,

But I'm going to pass it on.

I've talked long enough and I can come back and continue this as,

As I get,

Um,

As the memory gets more jogged.

Well,

That's another thing too.

Mindfulness is another interpretation for Sati,

Uh,

This ancient word that the Buddha said to rediscover,

Um,

Right,

Is,

Um,

It's,

It's often,

Uh,

Interpreted as mindfulness.

There's the other interpretations I like are bodyfulness,

Which is actually,

You know,

Sometimes we think it's such a mental process,

But it's actually an embodied knowing,

Uh,

Um,

Bodyfulness.

Some people interpret it as awareness,

Uh,

But also remembering too.

That's a,

That's one that,

Um,

Shifu uses,

Right?

Master Jiru uses.

It's remembering.

I love that as well.

Um,

It's just,

It's really,

Um,

That's another whole topic too.

So I'm just going to pass,

Pass it on now.

You know,

In Japan,

It's very important to understand the custom,

Which is that you'd never pour your own drink.

So even if you have a bottle of beer,

You pour for someone else and you put it back on the table and someone else pour for you.

So I asked the question and now it's your turn to ask the question.

Oh,

I like that.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um,

And then you asked Holly and then we just go around.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

If you'd like.

Uh,

So what is your,

What,

What,

Why,

Why do you meditate?

Why do you have a daily,

Um,

Meditation or a meditation practice?

Uh,

What is your,

What,

How does it help you?

What's the point?

Um,

Yeah,

I don't,

I,

Huh.

Just switch gears here.

What is the point?

And it can be secular.

I'm more aware of my journey through this body and in this world and to do to leave the world better than I find it,

You know,

As I just to the more,

I don't know,

The more that I can kind of heal myself and be aware of my own triggers,

Traumas and everything else,

The better I am able to help other people do that.

And to be of service,

You know,

I'm here to be of service to people,

Um,

In the world.

So it just helps me do that.

It helps me center.

Um,

I don't know.

It's just,

It's,

It's,

It's like a calling.

I just do it,

You know,

And the mindfulness,

You know,

It just helps me to be mindful in everything that I do.

You know,

Packing my bag for traveling and,

You know,

Interacting with people on the street and being mindful,

You know,

Especially now of everybody's feelings and fears and whatever around where we've been for the last six months,

You know.

Yeah,

You know,

And kind of stepping out of my own way and looking at it,

You know,

Without like,

Okay,

There's no judgment,

You know.

So we all have our own path and our paths intersect.

They go different ways.

They come back.

There's ebb and flow,

You know,

And just trying to stay within the flow and the stillness.

And it's just,

You know,

It's,

It helps me to remember the impermanence of life,

Of this,

Of this life,

This body that I'm in now,

The space that I'm in now.

I'm leaving it and I'm going to a different space and time.

And yeah,

It's,

I think it's important to remember that,

You know,

As we go through life.

It's just the imprint.

It's always changing.

And,

You know,

How do we flow with the change and stop resisting it?

You know,

And it's hard because we do resist it because we've become so conditioned in habitual patterns,

Whether they're,

Whatever they come from,

You know,

But just,

Okay,

So this is a way I can look at it.

This is another way I can look at it.

Does that make any sense?

Totally.

Absolutely not.

Okay,

That's what I thought.

No,

No,

No,

No.

Both.

No,

No,

I mean,

What you said,

As you're saying it,

You know,

I was,

I was,

I was talking to,

I was just telling myself,

How do I kind of just,

You know,

Bring what you said in just a few words.

I mean,

But so many things pop up.

One thing that pops up is personal hygiene in the sense that,

You know,

If you go to the doctor's office,

You know,

They put on mask.

Is it because they're sick?

No,

They're sick,

They won't be there,

But it's,

They're basically taking the responsibility of not causing harm.

And so I think one of the things you said,

Holly,

And correct me if I'm wrong,

Is that you're in the position,

Or you like to be in a position to provide service to people on a spiritual level.

So it's like putting on a mask,

It's making sure that you yourself is in a mentally healthy position before you reach out.

Is that correct?

That's very,

Yeah,

You said it better than me.

Of course,

Yeah,

I'm the marketing guy here,

Come on.

I mean,

I've actually I've been working this whole pandemic with kids and families,

I haven't stopped.

And you know,

There was always,

You know,

I followed protocols.

I had protocols set up where it felt safe,

As long as I felt safe,

They felt safe.

And in meditation,

I was able to tap into something where I just kind of instinctively knew who needed the help,

And who I could continue working with and who I couldn't work with physically in person.

And this is,

You know,

This is,

Well,

Isn't Chan Buddhism considered,

Don't they interpret it as being an intuitive path?

So I don't know if that's right or not,

But it does,

It seems that meditation also builds our intuition muscle.

So like Holly was saying,

She just kind of innately knows the right choices to make.

It's kind of hard to explain intuition rationally,

You know,

Just just kind of an inner knowing.

Yeah,

So yeah,

That's another thing.

It's just because when we take care,

This is like another teacher I have,

He calls,

Like different spiritual practices,

Energetic hygiene.

So that,

You know,

It's like,

Meditation is like a consciousness and energetic,

Spiritual hygiene.

So when we're able to take care of ourselves,

Then we can help the world,

Right?

So that's one thing I forgot to mention as well,

Because I'm in really not a really decent position to help somebody else or pretend or try to help somebody else when I'm in it,

When I'm a hot mess myself,

You know.

So this,

We always talk about the importance of physical exercise.

This is more of a kind of a mental exercise or a combining of body and mind,

Centering,

Grounding.

Because I'm going to have to go because it's nature,

Because I have to go out in nature and my friend is back home now.

That's all right.

Yeah.

So hopefully next time,

Wherever you are,

Holly,

Just check in next time.

Okay.

So keep sending them to me because I'll be in Scotland at this time next,

Next week or whenever you do them.

So the time in Scotland right now is 6.

20,

Which is great.

Okay.

Okay.

Well,

This is recorded.

So when you have a chance to come back and then you would know what we say when you're not here.

Now you can talk about me.

Yeah,

I should definitely talk about you.

Okay.

Thanks,

Holly.

Thanks for checking in.

And then Helen,

If you're interested in talking,

Just unmute your mic so we know that you want to talk.

Otherwise we'll just keep going.

Yeah.

So the other thing that Holly mentioned that in her kind of part of the conversation that kind of pops into my mind is one time my wife and I travel in New Zealand and we saw this girl walking around with a bag that says,

Just because I'm wandering doesn't mean that I'm lost.

The bumper sticker now around here,

All who wander aren't lost.

So I immediately took a picture of that and sent it to Holly and she really liked it.

And so I think part of what she said is that other than,

You know,

In addition to the work that she does,

Which is really kind of,

I would say,

Just kind of body and mind oneness,

You know,

How to fix someone who has physical illness by tapping into their more of a spiritual level.

So that's really what she does.

But at the same time,

She is really the world wanderer,

You know.

And I think what she said is to me,

It sounds to me that when you wander around the world,

I haven't thought about this,

Is it best to have a compass or is it best to have a GPS?

There's a very subtle difference there.

You might as well get both.

Yeah.

Well,

Yeah,

If you have a choice,

You get both.

But do understand the difference.

I mean,

So a compass is external.

So if you're wandering,

If you are wandering your life and you realize that you're getting direction from something external,

You have to stop and think,

Hey,

You know,

I've been I've done this long enough.

Maybe there's a different way.

And in some way,

Meditation is really finding yourself.

And it's really like developing your own initial guidance system where you're not following someone anymore.

You're following your own.

And so I think it's just what what Hani said just strikes me as someone who's in search of that,

Right?

In search of that,

Who that is.

So for me,

My own practice,

And I said this before,

It's about freedom.

It is about freedom.

It's about exploring and it's about freedom,

Freedom,

Not in a in an outward,

Materialistic way.

Because the definition of freedom is choice.

You know,

I remember back in the days when I was when I was running my own company,

People talk a lot about commitment,

You know,

That you have to have commitment.

This is when,

Like the Japanese quality circle were big.

And so they always talk about,

You know,

You have to be committed to a bigger cause.

You have to be committed to the company.

So people talk a great deal about commitment.

And I often make a joke that says,

Well,

That's what the nail thought when he stuck into the board,

That he's committed to that piece of wood,

Where in fact is actually stuck.

So you have to really understand the difference between committing something and being stuck into something.

And so that to me is the ultimate definition of freedom,

Which is,

Hey,

You know,

Do I get to choose?

So my my my own pursue is is to is is now that I do have freedom,

Now that I do have choices from on a material aspect,

How do I go further and have freedoms on more of a spiritual or mental aspect?

So that ultimately I can make better choices.

And of course,

The path in doing that is one of understanding.

Just just to know that,

Know that,

You know,

What is that you were saying?

I like the way you said is like brain is not mine.

They're actually different.

Although the problem is that we don't know what mine is.

Yes.

And those are great metaphors,

Demi.

Yeah.

And then the commitment is this is a tricky one for me.

It's a sticky one because it's what are you committed to?

I think commitment's important.

But if you're committing to all these superficial things and having all this responsibility,

Committing to things that really don't matter in the long run.

I mean,

We all have to have certain daily commitments and stuff.

But what do we really want to commit to and put our energy and time and effort into?

You know,

What's important,

What's needed?

So that's yeah.

So like you said,

So many people want so want so many people to commit to their own things,

Certain things of that.

But what is ultimately going to lead to more freedom,

To liberation,

To peace,

To ease?

You know,

All these.

That's one other cool thing is for me,

Instead of moving from gold driven.

Well,

Actually,

I never really was super gold driven,

Although those are important.

If we have core values,

Then every moment of our life can be in alignment with those core values.

So it leads to more satisfaction and what we're after anyway,

Instead of just going from one goal to the next,

To the next,

To the next.

Although we still,

You know,

We still need goals.

But like for me,

My core values are just kind of like I kind of took these from a teaching or Dharma talks and teachings like a bird.

So the wings of a bird,

You have wisdom on one wing and in the heart qualities,

Kind of like the loving the Brahma Viharas of loving kindness,

Compassion,

Equanimity and sympathetic joy,

Altruistic joy,

Vicarious joy,

However you want to.

And then so we need we can't just have one of those wings.

Both of them balance out each other.

So wisdom on one end and then the heart qualities on the other.

And then also the bird signifies freedom.

Right.

So a bird is completely free.

And then what else does a bird need to be flying high in the air?

What needs effortless courage?

It has courage is so effortless and inbuilt that doesn't even really consider it anymore because to go way up.

If we were to fly way up without any,

You know,

Just by ourselves,

It would be scary because we thought we could drop any time.

Well,

A bird can drop any time,

But it's just completely fearless in the sky.

Right.

Because it's just natural ability.

So it has courage.

But yes.

So help me get back on track here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So no,

No,

No.

I think I think I think if I if I understand right is,

You know,

When does commitment becomes attachment?

Yes,

Exactly.

So if we want to have attachment or healthy attachments,

I think it should be towards complete and utter freedom and liberation until we get close to that point.

And then we can even let go of that.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But but I think I think I think.

Yeah.

Your point.

In the end,

It's how do you know what you don't know?

Because because we don't have we don't we're not trained.

And unless you have training and practice,

You don't have the visibility.

And if you don't have the visibility,

Then they're just words.

Right.

They're just words.

So.

So,

For example,

You know,

Like like we in in Buddhist teaching,

We don't like the word attachment.

Right.

Because it means that your attachment,

Another another another word for that is we don't like clinging,

Clinging.

I like that better.

Yeah.

You take a saran wrap.

You know that that happens every time you take a saran wrap.

If you're not,

You know,

You lay it down on the countertop because if you're not careful,

Then it's really hard to take it.

Then you have to start all over again.

Right.

So.

So.

So this is we.

So one thing that we don't like is this idea of clinging,

Clinging means that you're so attached to something that that it that it's like it's like it's like it's like traveling.

You know,

It's good to have a destination,

But often we are so attached.

And so we're that the destination becomes so important that we forget that the journey is also part of the part of the part of the travel.

And so it is the same.

It's the same about attachment.

I actually think that attachment is important.

As long as we know how to do it,

Health,

You know,

Skillfully and wisely attach and then also be able to detach.

But I like the word because,

You know,

There's psychological kind of baggage around this.

The term I think in Buddhist that's more healthy is non attachment.

Right.

But then the attachment can also be needed,

Though,

To,

You know,

Like in a psychological kids want to be able to have a healthy attachment to their parents.

Right.

Also,

We might need to attach to something temporarily to really study and observe it.

Right.

But then when the time comes,

We can disengage or detach from that.

Yeah.

But this is where we comes in really important of discernment skills.

So like I mentioned before the show and some notes,

This is where,

You know,

You said,

Well,

How do we know if we can't,

You know,

If we don't have the visibility?

Well,

This is where spiritual friends are so important and then value teacher,

You know,

Master.

Yes.

So that's that's where it comes in.

So I guess we can transition maybe to feedback about our practice too and how to do that.

So just I mean,

There is that very tiny micro possibility that we at least have one audience.

OK.

That that actually stay with us,

You know,

In 30 minutes.

OK.

That just you have to be open to that possibility.

So I do want to at this point kind of give a summary,

Which is that Jim,

Josh and I and,

You know,

Whenever Holly can check in and Helen and other people that want to join us in the future.

What we really want to do is,

Is,

Is spend some time here to exchange ideas and experiences in our practice.

And one of the way that we do that is,

Is we take these terms,

Whether they're attachment and aversions and,

You know,

All those things that really like,

Like have each one of us explain how we know what does that mean to me and then to have that.

So,

So I so,

So I if I may,

One of the things that I wanted to do is summarize what Josh talked about is ultimately it's it's about discernment and visibility.

It's about knowing what is considered kusala or a kusala.

Right.

Which is a very interesting term because it's different from good and evil.

Yes.

Yes.

Because kusala is translate as wholesome and a kusala,

The opposite of kusala is translated as unwholesome.

And so one of the interesting thing that I find in Buddhism is that it's just you wouldn't use the word a is magical.

You know,

It's just like magical.

It's just like this is this is what it is and this is not what it is.

Right.

So just put an A on it and then and then that becomes the other part,

Which is different from from other religions that when we talk about good and evil,

Because when we talk about good and evil,

Implicit in that is that there's an authority.

There's someone out there who judges you.

And I think in our practice,

Whether you want to call it Buddhism or not,

Then ultimately we're talking about we are our own judge.

We have to decide if this is good for us or not good for us.

And we do it because it's kusala or we do it because it's a kusala.

So the word kusala is important that is this good for me?

Is this something healthy?

Right.

It's like it's like deciding what to eat.

It's like deciding what exercise you want to use.

Does it lead to our long term happiness and long term happiness of others?

Yeah.

So again,

In the simplest form to explain what we would like to do in this forum and what we like to do going forward is to just each of us have our own way of explaining what makes us happy and how do we go about that.

And not necessarily in a material standpoint,

Not about having a lot of things,

Although things are important.

But to ultimately put some perspective to that is that,

Well,

That that is important,

That that's the foundation upon upon which we can build more.

And it's all about knowing what is that more?

What is that?

What's going on?

And so so we talk about practice.

We talk about sitting meditation,

Walking meditation,

Ultimately to really understand the body and the mind,

The body and mind.

Can I tell me,

I want to I want to just one more thing.

And then I want to switch topic because you have you had a bunch of suggestion.

But I want to pick up on what you said,

Though,

Too.

So go ahead.

No,

Go ahead.

You do first.

You do it first.

OK,

Just real quick.

The kusela kusela,

You know,

The good evil.

This is this is really helpful for me because it just kind of sets aside this whole argument of good and evil.

Although,

You know,

I can see a purpose for that,

Too,

But to just go beyond that.

So even people who think they're good or I'm doing this good and you're bad,

That it just sits at a side and is able to connect with everybody.

Because I haven't yet to find anybody that can really go against skillful or unskillful,

Wholesome or unwholesome.

You know,

They're just it just it's a neutralizer.

It just it gets rid of all these arguments over who's right,

Who's wrong,

Good and evil.

Because it's just that that's been going on since the dawn of time.

You know,

Good and evil.

And then also,

What were you saying about the.

Well,

Now I'm drawn to blame.

Maybe maybe it'll come back to me.

But,

Yeah.

Well,

No,

No,

Let me let me let me let me continue with just as you're talking,

I just continue with that.

So so good and evil.

Kustula,

A.

Kustula.

A lot of times the problem I've been a professor for nine years.

So I'm in a good position to talk about some of the deficiency or our formal education system,

Starting from kindergarten all the way to graduate school.

And in fact,

I think that with this pandemic and and and the idea of doing remote learning and all that,

All of a sudden you're removing.

Learning from from physicality.

And that's going to change.

That's going to change.

And so one of the problem with our formal education is and knowing,

You know,

Being a professor,

I can tell you this.

The students are trained to know two things.

That for every question,

There is an answer.

And not only that,

The answer is unique.

Think about it.

Hi.

As a teacher,

That's how I look.

I put on an exam and I put out a question.

It's it's it's not it's not acceptable for me to put out a question that doesn't have answer.

And it's not acceptable for me to put out a question that has non unique answer.

Because the world the world will will go up in flames.

The academic world will go up in flames.

OK,

So so what is that problem?

The problem is that not in real life,

Outside of academia,

Not every question has an answer.

And obviously,

Clearly there is more than one answer.

And so what the problem the problem with with with institutionalized religion is that there's only one answer.

And going back to the good and evil,

That's what's implicit in the discourse of good and evil,

Is that there is only one answer.

What's also implicit in the discussion between kusala and a kusala is that for every individual,

There is an answer.

So your answer is different from mine.

And I have to respect your answer as much as you should respect mine.

I hope I.

All right.

It's a very different conversation.

It is a very,

Very different conversation.

It's like it's like,

You know,

It's like Earth and Venus.

Yeah.

And this is where the Buddha goes into.

There's I forget the sutta where is it the Kalamas where they were so confused.

They had all these teachers going and they're like,

What do we what should we pay attention to?

And the Buddha goes through and lays it out.

And that's one of the things about knowing what's wise,

Skillful,

Wholesome.

You know,

It won't be reviewed by the wise.

I forget all the exact things,

But he lays it out.

You know,

You know what?

Basically,

It comes back to knowing for yourself and that he gives a list of qualities.

Right.

I want to pick up a loose end here before that is you said happiness for each of us know our happiness.

And I love that little it's almost a cliche saying at this time that happiness is an inside job.

Right.

Yeah.

OK.

So now transitioning real quick,

Unless you want to pick that up.

Speaking of questions I had on there,

The four ways that the Buddha addressed questions.

So I don't know if anybody else knows this,

But I heard this and I forget which sutta comes from.

By the way,

It's the same four way that message you address our questions.

Yeah.

The same.

Oh,

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're familiar.

Go ahead.

And you can go ahead and help.

You can correct and refine me.

So it's well,

I mean,

It would it should be the way that it's not only the way that historically Buddha have answered question.

And it's not only the way that our teacher have asked question answer question.

It should be the way we answer each other's question.

But some of the ones are so rare that they think about doing it right.

So what are the what are the four ways that we should answer each other questions?

So the obvious ones that we hear all the time are the first two are the two that I'll say first is the well,

Kind of a quick,

Brief yes or no or direct,

Simple,

Concise answer.

The next one is expanding on that with a longer explanation.

Right.

If I'm getting this right.

But then the other ones that hardly anybody does is probably because you'll be socially rebuked is not answering.

Just just not giving an answer.

There was one story in the sutta is where somebody asked,

You know,

Is there a self?

Is there not a self?

And then the Buddha wouldn't answer.

And I guess the reason he gave later for that is because no matter which way he told which way he answered that he would have given the wrong impression or,

You know,

Not given conveyed it right.

Depending on that situation,

Because of the temperament and the situation,

The context.

But anyway,

The last one is the last one is answering a question with a question.

So sometimes we just don't have enough information about the actual question itself or sometimes the person is asking the question for a certain reason that an appropriate response would be to to respond with a question because of that unique situation.

Right.

So.

So,

So,

So,

So these are the four things.

These are the four what we call the canonical forms.

All right.

Of interaction.

One is that someone asked the question because we after all we call this show,

Ask us anything.

So if they ask us a question,

We should respond directly with the understanding that this is our experience and understanding.

Right.

At the same time,

We should then ask them to clarify why they asked that question.

And then finally,

We should ask more questions.

By exploring,

Because sometimes people don't don't understand why they ask the question,

So you didn't even explore that.

And sometimes you just have to ignore the question,

Not in a very polite way.

Put it aside by just saying that I don't know.

I'll go find the answer or I find someone else who find.

And did you know that?

Do you know that that these are the four ways of interacting customers?

That is the way that I usually train my sales staff.

Excellent.

And always answer the question.

So this is the most important thing.

When your customer asks your questions,

Don't don't don't go in.

You know,

Don't try to go in and talk about something else and thinking that,

You know,

20 minutes later,

You will come back to answer.

No answer that damn questions first.

Right away.

That's a good idea.

Right away.

And just say,

Don't be afraid to say I don't know,

Because so many people are afraid to say I don't know,

Because just because they want to appear like they know or smarter.

Yeah.

In it or they're deficient if they can't say if they say I don't know,

They think they're deficient.

And then Denny,

I'll let you finish.

I might want to come back to,

Though,

This all ties into the education system and how questions and knowledge are viewed outside of the schooling system because of the schooling system.

Well,

I can get into that.

Some ideas about that.

We have to leave something for the next.

OK,

But we got we got about 10 minutes.

So so I want to I want to pick up on this this question that you have,

Which is we've been we've been shelter in place for six months.

Wow.

Six months.

I remember celebrating the hundred day because this was like,

You know,

As soon as it was in San Francisco,

It started with St.

Patrick's Day.

It started with St.

Patrick's Day because because the mayor decided that if she didn't do that,

Then people are going to go out drinking that night.

And so she actually started to practice in place and just shut down everything,

Which in retrospect was the right move.

So so this this was the middle of March.

So it's now with them towards the end of August.

So this this is this is a long,

Long time.

So.

It's not like Missouri,

Though,

By the way,

This is California we're talking about.

Just in case you want to talk about California.

Yeah,

We're talking about California and.

Well,

Come on in Missouri,

You always should be distancing.

Come on out in the country,

Right?

Rule area.

We're used to the question is the question is,

What does practice in place mean?

What does shelter in place mean?

How did you how how did how did that affect your practice in both good ways and bad ways?

So you go first.

Well,

Actually,

I don't know if that really applies to me,

So I'm going to get you back or throw it back to you real quick.

So there hasn't really been any of that here,

I think.

And I can't even remember.

So I don't want to misspeak,

But there's really not much of a curfew or I think there maybe was for a couple of days or something.

But and then even mask a lot of times are optional in certain places and in businesses now.

But a lot of the businesses have switched to curbside service and in some of the stuff,

It's you know,

There's similarities and differences.

But what I can see,

What I noticed the most about this whole thing going on is the amount of fear that it put in people,

Especially at the beginning.

And I noticed it myself and a lot of people around me.

It's not as great,

I don't think now.

It's just that I can see where it's actually.

That could be more detrimental or just as detrimental as any kind of virus because it could run down our immune system.

Right.

If we're in a constant state of fight and flight and fear.

But then again,

If somebody is already in that state to tell them,

Oh,

You shouldn't be in fear.

Well,

Then they're just they're just going to get more in fear.

Right.

So that's kind of the kind of a paradox with that.

But that's another reason why meditation is important is to is to address our fears instead of trying to hide from them and cover them up.

Because that's one.

I look at there's the opportunities of this,

You know,

So some unmet or unprocessed fear it can bring up,

Which is a good thing.

Because how would we know kind of the opposite of fear if we didn't if it didn't come up and deal with it?

And some people probably aren't really even aware that they're in a state of fear.

Right.

So then it did.

Since everything kind of people are kind of going back to a more,

I would say,

Natural state,

They're not running around mindlessly consuming like they would usually.

Right.

So they're kind of spending more time in isolation,

Contemplation.

Yeah.

Just kind of having to look at how they are,

Their state and maybe reviewing their lives and what's been important up to this point.

And a lot of that stuff that was once important during this isn't really that they can't do that anymore.

So they're they're just kind of in like either no man's land or don't really know what to do.

So that's another thing that our practice has helped us prepare for.

I feel because this is really not that new to us.

It's just maybe a different context.

It's also,

You know,

If somebody wanted to do a self retreat or things like Denny does on Zoom,

I don't know if it's mentioned that that he does.

Well,

He's going to go back to this.

Right.

How you've been doing this practice,

Group practice on Zoom since since the very beginning of this started.

And that's what I'm going to I think I'm going to wrap it there and throw it back to Danny to to answer his own question and then build on that with what he's learned from his daily practice on Zoom.

And everything else that goes along with this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So my my answering my own question is,

Is how did this pandemic affect my own practice or affect the practice of people around me?

You can't it's it's a it's a huge event,

Huge humanity event,

But it's still not big enough to change people's way.

You know,

So you can only the effect of in terms of any positive effect,

It's it's on the edge,

You know,

It's really on the edge that that if you have people who are inclined to practice already,

This gives them a sense of urgency.

Because it's it's like it's like you roll it on the cliff.

If you already passed that point,

You're just going to keep rolling.

It's just accelerate.

And so for a lot of people,

It's I think it's very difficult to go to someone who had never practiced this spiritual,

Have you don't have any kind of spiritual practice to speak of,

And then to be able to grab them by the neck and say,

Hey,

You know,

Do this.

And they're already to do.

This is too catastrophic event.

It's they already you know what if they're going down to the incline incline,

This just accelerate.

And it's just very,

Very my experience is my experience is very,

Very hard.

Unless they said unless they seek,

They took time to seek it out for themselves during this time,

Say,

Oh,

Hey,

What can I do?

I'm going to go.

Oh,

Wait,

I'm gonna try this.

You know,

That's the old Yeah,

I agree with you.

Other than somebody say,

Oh,

Hey,

What,

What do I really need to do now?

Maybe I should look at this.

Other than that,

Yeah,

I agree.

So those those those individuals are even if they don't,

They haven't started the practice,

They know enough that they have,

They wanted to do it.

And what this what this effort,

This pandemic does is that it really puts the urgency.

Okay,

So that's that's a fine difference that I'm talking about is that,

You know,

If you're if you're in this incline,

And you already you were already going down at that incline to begin with.

This event just pushes you gives you momentum now and just very,

Very hard to grab them take it back.

On the other hand,

I think you're right,

Josh,

Is that there are people who who was thinking about it.

You know,

And then and then now they'll say,

Oh,

Yeah,

And then if you just provide them with the right condition,

You know,

Then they will think that Oh,

This is I understand that this what what this pet pandemic has,

If we're talking about positive effect is for those of us who already have a practice already have a habit.

It really puts the urgency in us.

It really puts the urgency us and also at the same time.

There's that utility aspect,

Which is a awesome,

You know,

We're not doing anything anymore.

And also,

So in our case,

We,

I just,

I didn't know if there was anybody interested,

I just knew that this is what I need.

So I throw out an announcement about a daily practice.

And also,

And people show up.

And he's Oh,

This,

You know,

Let's do this.

And some people do it just our curiosity.

And some people know me already.

And they say,

Yeah,

You know,

Let's let's do this.

And now it's,

To me,

It's inconceivable that we would stop.

Right.

Even afterwards,

Even after this.

Well,

First of all,

I argue if there's going to be an right.

Yeah,

Nobody unless you're psychic,

Right?

Yeah,

Yeah.

So,

No,

I mean,

It's like it's like putting the hands back in the clock.

Think about it.

You know,

Once you understand that a clock should have hands,

What's the point of taking it off again?

Well,

That's pretty profound.

Yeah,

I haven't heard that.

You know,

So anyway,

I think for me,

Speaking personally.

It is.

I hate to use this,

But it is what it is.

I hate this.

But I'm making the best of it.

You know,

I'm making the best of it.

And because it has put urgency back into my life.

And that urgency I actually knew.

Because when I visit prisons,

You know,

Back in the days when prisons were still open,

Which is only a couple months ago.

That was the one thing that I noticed is that when you're a prisoner,

When you're already an inmate,

And you don't have this freedom,

Quote unquote,

To speak of about your physical presence,

Then the only freedom that you will search is the spiritual freedom.

And that's where the urgency comes from.

Whereas for those of us who are on the outside,

Normally we don't have this urgency.

And with the pandemic,

It puts that urgency back.

So I'm grateful for that.

You know,

I hate to say this as if I'm happy for the.

.

.

But I'm just like personally my own feeling.

I'm very gracious.

It's hard to be upset when you're grateful,

Right?

And that,

You know,

They talk about you can put somebody in prison,

You can do all this stuff to them,

But you can never capture their spirit,

Right?

So that spirit is where the freedom lies,

Right?

Or whatever you want to call it,

Right?

The internal state,

Buddha nature or whatever.

And then there's the Pali word that talks,

It's called,

I love this word,

Samvega.

It means a spiritual urgency.

And that's exactly what this is.

That's exactly what I guess prison is.

You know,

It does.

It like really prioritizes things and kind of lights a fire under your butt,

Right?

And we notice the benefits immediately and how important it is.

It just makes sense immediately.

All right.

And Denny,

I guess the other thing,

Real quick,

Maybe we can get to a daily practice though for anybody wanting to.

.

.

What are some supports for a daily practice and the important.

.

.

Well,

We already talked about the importance at the beginning,

But what can people do to establish a meditation practice,

A regular meditation practice,

Tips and instructions?

Well,

It's very difficult if you don't have a regular practice,

A regular pattern for practice.

It's very hard to do that on your own.

It's very,

Very hard to do that on your own.

So I think it's also very hard for people to kind of jump from zero to light speed.

So it's very hard for someone to commit to a daily practice.

But on the other hand,

Maybe a weekly practice.

And so Josh and I and the other students,

At least on Saturday,

8 o'clock Pacific time,

10 o'clock Central.

You guys,

You call it Central,

Right?

Yeah,

Central time.

Okay,

I guess I said Mountain Central.

Yes,

That's right.

We get together and I like to see us focusing on the weekly practice,

8 o'clock my time.

And the other thing that I like to do is at least not necessarily sit down meditation,

But to really understand what does meditation mean and that there are other ways to do this.

That you could have both a static and a dynamic form and you could have all of those.

So if you're interested in joining us,

I like to see us developing this Saturday forum into something.

And so if you join us on Saturday,

8 o'clock my time,

We can explore.

And then I'll answer my own question real quick with a couple of things.

I like the analogy of it's like brushing your teeth.

You could miss a day,

But you wouldn't want to.

I just find the importance of a daily practice,

But we start where we're at,

Right?

So yeah,

Like Denny was saying,

It could be a weekly,

It could be anything.

There's a free app online,

Insighttimer.

Com,

That gives you a virtual community as well.

Seek out spiritual friends,

A teacher,

Explore online.

And then once you establish a habit,

Then it's not a big deal anymore.

You don't even think about it.

There's so many,

So many,

So many avenues.

A friend of mine used to say to me,

He says,

Until I was this Josh from the army,

I didn't realize that there are so many green trucks.

There's so many,

So many people online and they can just start somewhere,

Right?

Start somewhere.

Okay.

Start where we're at too.

Okay.

Well,

Josh,

I know you so long and I like this forum.

This is actually where you and I can actually have a conversation and other people who check in as well.

Okay.

We should continue.

We talk about how often we should do this.

Okay.

All right,

Denny.

Thank you.

Thank you both for sharing.

Thank you,

Helen.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Good day.

Bye-bye.

I'll just go ahead and log off now.

Okay.

Okay.

Bye-bye.