Real World Meditation With Ann Swanson

This Feb 19, 2024 conversation with meditator, yoga therapist and author Ann Swanson jumps into plenty of topics such as the importance of science and research in mediation and yoga and the effects thereof, the eight limbs of yoga, the surprising effects of mindfulness meditation on anxiety, the power of loving-kindness and compassion meditation, presence, appreciation / gratitude, embodiment, tai chi as a gentle and accessible practice, dance style metaphors, meditation challenge, and more

Transcript

Wholeness,

Welcome.

This is Josh.

And today I have Anne Swanson with me.

Anne,

How's it going today?

Good,

It's morning time here.

You might hear some roosters in the background.

I'm here in Hawaii,

So they're all waking up with us.

Well,

Lovely.

So here's the standard question,

Anne.

Who is Anne Swanson and what does she do?

I am a yoga therapist.

So I work with people individually to adapt their lifestyle,

Their yoga routine,

Their meditations,

Specifically to help them with their concerns,

With their chronic diseases,

With healing,

With self-healing.

I got into yoga because I myself dealt with a lot of chronic pain and anxiety.

I mean,

It was so debilitating.

I would pass out at the most inopportune times and I needed some tools to help me get through it.

And so meditation has really been a powerful tool for me.

And that's why I've been really focusing on meditation recently in my sharing.

I originally studied meditation in India and then with my Master's of Science in Yoga Therapy,

Dove into the research behind it.

And then I now write about the research supporting meditation and how to apply it into your life practically.

Well,

Beautiful.

Most people that listen to this show know that I'm not usually a gung-ho,

Nuts and bolts kind of science.

However,

I do like that aspect.

I think we need pretty much any and all avenues to get people on board with meditation.

And I know some people,

They're just like that.

They want to know what the experts say.

They wanna know the hard science behind it and if it really works according to science in the standard paradigm before they get into it,

Which I feel is a little bit unfortunate.

But I also like to add these type of things to back up and to be able to talk to people on all levels of how it works according to these paradigms.

And so before we get a little bit into that though,

Why don't you go a little bit more into detail about your yoga practice just as a background for me.

I started yoga like a weekly practice maybe in 2013 and did it almost up until around the lockdowns and whatnot.

And I just used it as a support for my own meditation practice.

So that's my core practice.

And what I found,

I won't get into too many critiques,

But one of the reasons I gave it up is there was not too many straight men,

Which is okay,

But which really surprised me from what I understand,

Not to get into gender too much here but it used to be a thing in India from what I understand,

Only men were allowed to do it.

Now it's like the complete opposite in the Western world.

So I was a little bit befuddled by this and that there's eight limbs of yoga,

Right?

But in the West,

It seems like mostly all we ever hear about is the asana practice.

So if you wanna talk a little bit about that and then also about your own yoga practice before we get into the science here.

So when we say the word yoga,

It means an eight limb,

Eight step or part program that includes the asana as one component of eight.

But the other components are the breathing practices and most of them in that eight are really meditation.

Like four out of the eight steps could be considered meditation.

So we do the asanas and the breath work to prepare our bodies and minds for the meditation which is the ultimate.

So if you don't connect with going to an asana class,

That's okay.

Your physical practice to prepare you could be your sport.

It could be exercise done mindfully,

Infusing mindfulness and present moment awareness into whatever exercise weightlifting you do.

So really we wanna prepare our body and minds for meditation.

And we know from the science that when you exercise,

When you move your body,

You're not only improving your body from the superficial level or from the looks or the muscles or the weight,

You're also changing the neurochemistry immediately and long-term.

You're changing your brain tissue.

You're changing your immune response and you're optimizing all the systems in your body.

And even at a cellular level,

You're improving when you exercise.

So this is gonna help you get into a higher state for meditation to be able to reach those higher levels in your meditation.

And the reason I like the science is twofold.

One is it does convince me.

I'm one of the people that gets convinced by it.

I'm like,

Okay,

Well,

If this is true,

If this is really going to affect my telomeres and help me reverse cellular aging,

And there's evidence of this,

I'm gonna do it.

But also as a yoga therapist and a professional in this field,

I see that it's important for us to be able to get into hospitals,

Into schools and make these practices mainstream.

So that's my mission with science is helping more people that are in positions of power,

Whether it be policymakers,

They need the research,

School leaders,

They need the research,

Hospital leaders and the people in charge.

That's what they look at in the Western world.

And that's just how the world works.

Yes,

And that's right.

So if we're talking about mainstream everyday life,

And excuse me,

I've been out of the corporate world for quite a while now.

So it takes some memory to go back into that.

And yeah,

It just,

I've heard success story after success story of introducing these into schools and all the things that they've put really high caliber monks and MRIs and have done so many research studies on all this.

And to me,

That just seems so obvious.

I mean,

Not everybody has my experience where meditation completely turned my life around almost immediately and I committed to it almost instantaneously.

So we come from a different approach on this,

But we both agree,

Obviously,

That it's pretty undeniable of all the benefits of meditation.

I tell people that it's almost like these are the health benefits it has and it's almost like the side effect that just happens almost naturally when we do a committed daily practice and keep at it and do it in the way.

So let's talk a little bit about what you found in your research and talking to people,

Maybe things you didn't know beforehand,

Maybe ideas you had that were validated,

Maybe some other things that you were a little bit off track on.

Who all did you talk to?

Where did you go?

Let's just,

I think that's enough to start for now,

Yeah.

Yeah,

I collaborated with neuroscientist,

Dr.

Sarah Lazar at Harvard.

She is one of those researchers that puts monks and beginner meditators into those fancy fMRI scanners and looks into their brains to see the differences,

The immediate differences,

The differences within just eight weeks of practice are profound.

What I'm finding is that the science is slowly uncovering and confirming what the ancient masters knew for ages,

Right?

The intuition that you experience,

It's strong,

That the real life experiences that we've all had of transformation,

Of meditation didn't only change my life and improve my life,

But it saved my life.

These experiences are undeniable and neuroscience is just starting to catch up.

It is a field that is filled with mystery,

Just like space travel.

There's so much to explore and we know so little about it.

So I find that it kind of just confirms what we intuitively know,

Like this works,

This helps me not get sick as much,

This helps me with my mental health,

This helps me sleep better,

Like all the intuitive things.

But when we have the data to confirm it,

It's like,

Oh,

Wow,

Now people are paying attention.

So for the most part,

It's not surprising what the research has uncovered.

However,

There are some times where I get something a little surprising.

When we are looking at like,

What types of meditation are popular?

Mindfulness is by far the most popular and it's because it has the most research to support it.

The most researchers have been interested in this field of mindfulness.

That's changing.

Compassion meditation is slowly rising in the research and in popularity.

But mindfulness has been popular for a while.

And when we think of mindfulness,

One technique that's really common is just like paying attention to your breath,

Right?

It's one of the most common focal points for meditation,

Breath or body awareness.

Feel the sensations in your body.

And as you're listening to this right now,

You can notice the sensations in your body.

That's practicing mindfulness.

Now,

I have this problem.

When I go to the doctor's office and I'm in an extreme stress situation,

I pass out.

It's like fight,

Flight,

Or freeze,

But it is gone.

I am just dealing with the fact that the doctor is being dismissive.

They're rushing me by being on the floor,

Convulsing,

Not knowing who I am,

Where I am,

And going somewhere else.

So this problem,

Obviously,

I wanted to fix.

Like,

It's very debilitating.

For days afterwards,

I'm in an adrenaline rush.

I can't sleep,

So I wanted to fix it.

And I talked to a yoga teacher.

Like,

What do I do?

So they give me the classic focal point.

When you go in there,

Notice your breath,

Notice your body,

Notice your sensations.

So I'm like,

Okay,

I'm prepared.

I'm gonna use,

Meditation helps with anxiety.

I'm gonna use it.

So I go,

And once again,

The doctors and nurses are being dismissive.

The patient interaction is not compassionate.

And when that happens,

My body knows what to do.

And this time,

I start noticing my body sensations.

And I start slowing down,

And then I start to feel,

My heart is beating out of my chest,

And I taste the metal,

And boom,

I'm out quicker.

So this exacerbated my situation.

I actually got worse from that meditation type.

And if you've ever done a meditation where you felt,

Like,

Worse afterwards,

Sometimes you're just doing the wrong meditation for you or for that situation.

Turns out,

When I dove into the research,

I saw that people with acute anxiety,

Like panic attacks,

Body awareness and breath awareness make it worse in the moment.

Those are good skills to have when you're safe at home,

You're comfortable,

You build the skill of body awareness,

But not in the moment.

If the anxiety arises,

You need to use a different technique.

So I figured what techniques would work in this situation.

And I found Shu,

I can share.

If anybody out there listening also has anxiety like this,

Or you've ever experienced meditation making it worse,

Then here's what you can do.

So you can place your feet on the ground,

And if you're listening to this,

Feel the points of contact of your feet on the ground,

Your body on the seat beneath you,

Or if you're walking,

Just points of contact of your feet on the ground as you're listening.

And then with each exhale,

Feel yourself releasing and grounding down.

This makes me very present and able to answer the doctor's questions if they have them.

Now,

If I can,

I do visualization technique.

And this is where I imagine I'm at the beach,

Or wherever is a safe place for you.

I'm imagining I'm at the beach,

So I'm curling my toes,

I'm literally moving my toes as if I'm moving them in sand,

And I'm listening to my breath as if it were the sound of the waves,

And I'm going elsewhere.

So that was something of a little bit of a surprise to me in my experience and in the research,

Is that some of these techniques that we go to,

And maybe a lot of meditation teachers,

That's all they teach,

Or yoga teachers,

That's all they integrate,

They could make it worse,

Which is why I wanted to find therapeutic meditations based off of the research and experience and my clinical practice that help with specific situations,

You name it,

Like doom scrolling when you're feeling overwhelmed,

There's a meditation for that.

When you have social anxiety or FOMO,

There's meditations that are specifically suited for those situations that could help you through grief of loss of a loved one,

That are different than a meditation you might do before you exercise or before you do a sport to focus and do your best performance.

So that's the thing that surprised me,

It's not one size fits all,

We really have to adapt it for the situation and the person.

Yes,

Very important too.

We hear these stories,

People go on really intensive meditation retreats and when they start looking into the nature of their own mind due to a lot of habit energy throughout their whole life that they're really not aware of,

Or whatever it might be,

That some people just realize how out of control their mind really is and they don't realize that it's pretty much like that all the time.

They just have stopped for a second now and turned inward and saw that it was like that.

And so some things will happen.

So these are,

Yeah,

It's not just some hippy-dippy new age airy-fairy stuff sometimes.

I mean,

The human condition is a really intense thing.

It's being human isn't for sissies,

I say,

Came from a saying my uncle said that getting old isn't for sissies,

But it's no light thing to have this human experience we're having.

We're all going to experience pain in one form or another.

It's inescapable.

So what is the best way to view that and then to respond to it?

And what are the tools and techniques that we can use to notice this and then apply what's needed,

The best thing that's needed,

Like you're saying,

In the moment especially.

And then also,

Long-term,

You also mentioned when you're at home too.

And I was wondering if you've heard about loving-kindness practice,

This friendliness,

This well-wishing.

It's often an antidote to ill will,

But it seems to have a relaxing effect on some people.

And also compassion practice as well.

Have you found that works for,

I don't know what to say about your situation,

Anxiety,

Fear,

Dread,

What would you call it?

Or what kind of label?

And then labels can be problematic too,

Right?

Sometimes they're very helpful.

They give us an understanding of what's going on.

But then if we take in a label as an identity and say,

Well,

That's who I am.

This is me.

This is permanent.

This is never gonna change.

Then it's not so helpful,

I feel,

In my experience anyway.

So a couple things there again.

So like loving-kindness and compassion.

And then how do you feel about these,

I don't know,

Diagnosis labels or,

Yeah.

Great questions.

I'll start with the loving-kindness because this is perhaps my favorite type of meditation.

And the research is supporting that developing compassion for yourself and others is really beneficial for your mental health,

Obviously.

But we have data to support this as well as your immune system.

When we focus on and imagine a person happy and smiling for just five minutes,

Literally like that was another thing that surprised me in the research is that short practices,

Three minutes,

Five minutes,

Make a difference.

There's immediate effects.

So if we do this for just five minutes,

They found a decrease in specific antibodies in your,

Or excuse me,

An increase of specific antibodies in your immune system that help you fight off invaders.

So we want to have that.

It's really important to boost the immune system in a way that's,

In a balanced way.

And also it's loving-kindness and compassion towards others and self is very helpful for your own self-image,

For your own confidence,

And for your connection with others.

So loving-kindness,

I do this as a practice,

As a like 10-minute meditation where you repeat,

May they be safe,

May they be healthy,

May they be joyful,

May they be free from suffering,

May they be at ease.

But you can think of someone,

If you're listening to this right now,

Think of someone that you'd like to send that loving-kindness to.

And you imagine them glowing,

You imagine them with light.

It doesn't have to be a whole 10-minute practice.

It can be a one-minute meditation where maybe you're around someone that's even frustrating with you.

You imagine them glowing,

You send them,

May they be safe.

I find that's easy even if I'm dealing with road rage,

Somebody just cut me off.

I can say,

May they be safe.

Maybe I can't say,

May they be at ease and get to that point because I'm frustrated with them,

But I can at least say,

May they be safe.

And that's the benefit of this loving-kindness meditation is you can use it in your head anytime,

Anywhere.

It doesn't have to be this long formal practice.

I use it specifically with my partner for road rage.

We've been struggling with traffic and people and that situation,

And it's made a huge difference.

We end up laughing it off rather than letting our blood pressure rise.

So loving-kindness has been a game changer in my life.

When I do it for a person,

A random person,

I notice suddenly they're super nice to me.

I did it to the security guard in my building.

I would just use her as my person and then she just was so loving and out of the blue,

There was no connection,

Nothing.

It was just,

I didn't do anything different.

I was just sending her loving-kindness.

It makes a huge difference.

So I encourage people to do it as like a one-minute meditation,

Little bites through the day,

Little snacks of meditation.

And then to the labels,

I'm with you on this.

I feel like when we identify with a label,

We identify with our trauma,

It can be debilitating.

It's good that we have so much trauma education and that mental health is now accepted as a real concern.

I appreciate that.

But if we just focus all the time on our triggers,

The things that cause trauma,

We just focus on the past,

We're not present.

And that's the key is integrating presence.

We wanna be present in the moment and that's a key to happiness.

We've seen this,

That when you are present,

When you're doing something and you're thinking about the thing you're doing,

You are more likely to be happy.

And the researchers conclude that that is the cause of happiness.

No matter what you're doing,

Washing the dishes,

It doesn't matter what you're doing,

When you're present doing it,

You're happier.

So I encourage people to look at what social worker Deb Dana coined as glimmers.

So rather seeking out these triggers and talking about this,

I feel triggered by this,

That,

Which there's some value to acknowledging that working in therapy,

Absolutely.

But can we also through our meditation practice,

Through the way we look in the world,

Seek out glimmers.

And glimmers are essentially the opposite of triggers.

They are when you feel the sense of lightness,

A glimmer,

You feel like a little bit of a smile emerge on your face.

Maybe you see a rainbow,

That's I'm here in Hawaii,

That's a beautiful glimmer.

Maybe it's just a picture of your beloved pet.

Maybe it's thinking of someone you love,

Like we just did imagining them glowing,

Imagining them smiling and at ease.

These are glimmers.

And when you can focus on these more through your day,

You can practice in your meditation,

Then you're going to be in a higher state.

You're going to be more present rather than,

Oh man,

I shouldn't have said that.

What am I gonna do tomorrow?

Worries,

Worries.

It's gonna bring you into presence.

That's my focus is to spread glimmers in the world.

And you can also spread glimmers by doing a random act of kindness.

Show appreciation.

Bring your meditation into the world by showing appreciation.

Write a review for this podcast if you enjoy it.

When you buy an author's book,

Write a review on Amazon.

Authors read every one of those,

It makes a difference.

Show appreciation in action.

Right now,

Text somebody that you appreciate and let them know,

Just I appreciate you.

You can tell them why.

But that action of appreciation is spreading compassion and loving kindness into the world and spreading glimmers to connect those two questions for you,

Josh.

Very good,

Very beautiful.

And I like this appreciation.

That's another thing for a gratitude practice,

Right?

These random acts of kindness.

And actually,

Yeah,

In action as well.

And it's,

You know,

Compassion in action too.

We could ask someone,

You know,

Is everything okay?

Is there anything I can do?

Or how can I help?

You know,

That's compassion in action too.

But I really wanna echo the loving kindness.

But before that,

Your other point.

Yeah,

Because these glimmers,

Where attention goes,

Energy flows.

So of course,

The more time and energy we spend on our attention,

We give something,

We're gonna feed that with energy and build that up with energy,

Right?

But the loving kindness,

I think,

Is great.

And I love how you did the more visual side of it.

For me,

I guess it's more tactile.

And to me,

It's a noticeable feeling in my chest and just warmth and just an upliftment and mood and energy.

And we can do it for ourselves.

And if we wanna get really,

Quote unquote,

Spiritual about it,

All beings everywhere,

Right?

It's really such a noticeable,

Like you say,

People can sense that we're harmless and that we have their best interests at heart.

And that when I'm happy,

They're more likely to be happy.

And when I send loving kindness to myself,

I'm more likely to be in a better space to meet others where they're at.

And especially all the people that wanna be seen and heard.

We all need to be seen and heard.

So yes,

Okay.

So I also now wanna talk about,

If you don't mind,

Your own yoga practice.

When you go in and work with clients,

You know,

How do you,

Do you go into meditation?

Do you teach the meditation?

Do you do it like a one-on-one basis?

Do you just do an asana practice?

I mean,

How do you get people?

And then I wanna talk about the embodiment portion.

If you wanna mention the embodiment portion of yoga too and in meditation,

Is there anything coming to mind about this?

Yeah,

So I'm a yoga therapist.

I have a master's of science in yoga therapy and I'm certified through the International Association of Yoga Therapists.

What this means is that I work with individuals and groups with a similar situation.

So for me,

I work a lot with arthritis and chronic pain.

And then I work with the clients that are sent my way,

Have five or more health conditions.

So often even walking or getting down on the floor is a challenge for a lot of my clients.

So I'm adapting the yoga practice.

I also teach Tai Chi.

So integrating Tai Chi and yoga and meditation in a way that's accessible and therapeutic for them.

And a lot of it is embodiment,

Getting them into their bodies.

There's this term in the research called interoception.

This is your ability to perceive your inner body awareness.

Like as you're listening,

Feel under your skin,

Right?

Under your skin,

Can you feel that movement,

That flow?

Feel a little deeper.

Can you feel that pulsation in your body?

Maybe you feel your stomach grumbling,

Your heart beating.

Notice what you feel internally.

These sensations are always there.

We just don't always notice them.

It's a great way to integrate presence is when you focus on those body awareness.

A lot of people,

When they're dealing with lots of chronic diseases and concerns,

They've lost embodiment.

They've lost that ability to listen to the inner body.

And when you listen,

When you build interoception,

You listen to the wisdom of your body,

Which may be as simple as I'm thirsty right now.

I need to drink water.

I just had a sip of water and you can feel that nourishment.

It could be as simple as I'm full.

So I'm gonna stop eating.

I'm tired,

So I'm going to go to sleep.

My eyes hurt,

So I'm gonna stop looking at the screen and I'm gonna go outside and look at a tree and watch the birds.

It's really just listening to those cues that your body has.

So a lot of my work with people is getting them back in touch with their bodies and getting them listening.

When you deal with chronic pain,

You often wanna push it down and ignore it and distract all the time.

But really,

The solution,

Rather than covering it up,

The solution is to feel it,

To heal it,

To acknowledge it.

It's screaming at you because it wants to be hurt.

And then we get better at listening to it when it's a whisper rather than a scream.

And that's where I am right now with my chronic pain journey.

I've had chronic pain since I was a teenager,

Is that I can tell,

Okay,

What I ate,

That wasn't so good.

I need to get in the bathtub.

I need to rest.

I need to do whatever.

I need to do self-care to recover from whatever that trigger was.

And of course,

Focus on glimmers.

So that's a lot of my work with people too is working on that mindset related because when you are dealing with lots of health conditions,

Chronic pain,

It can be hard to have a positive outlook,

To find those glimmers of life,

But it's so critical for our healing journey.

It's beautiful and luckily I haven't had a lot of pain.

So the few things that I've heard about it too,

Working with it in a meditative context is a lot of times if we really examine it in so many ways,

It's not what we think it is,

Right?

If there's an area of pain,

We can zoom way into it and noticing like,

Is it a stabbing,

A burning,

An itching,

A throbbing,

Rough,

What's the texture?

And then notice the location and how it will actually change in all these different aspects that it's not locked in a lot of times in what we think it is.

And then we can zoom out on a huge level like you're talking about.

And how is it interrelated to all the other parts of our body and things like this?

And then how the mind affects it,

The psychological aspect.

So it's a fascinating area and I don't wish it on myself or anyone,

Obviously.

It's just,

We can use it as an opportunity in our practice to take our practice deeper and to master it because the challenges we're going through,

Then we become a hero for those once we go through it and the heroes to those who are still going through it.

So,

I mean,

Looking at the opportunity and in things as well is another practice of mine.

What if the worst things that ever happened to us were the greatest opportunity we've ever been given?

It's called the golden question by some.

So what else do you wanna talk about in this journey you've gone through,

Through India and you learned at Tai Chi?

And just for the record here,

I did one little session with a Tai Chi master and I mean,

Just that walk at the very beginning,

The opening sequence.

I mean,

I could see myself doing that for months and months and months and not even feel confident about it.

So I was doing more Yi Jin Jing and more Chi exercises,

But it's just,

It's like an art form to me.

So how,

So talk about your practice with that a little bit and yeah,

Other things you've learned in your journey of research here.

Absolutely,

I'm glad you brought up Tai Chi because that is a love of mine.

And one of the things I love about Tai Chi is anybody and everybody can do it.

Now that's true of yoga too,

But we do need to adapt it,

Right?

We do chair yoga,

We adapt it and you have to have those skills to adapt it.

But Tai Chi,

You don't get on the floor,

It's gentle flowing,

Slow movement and it's really good for balance.

So you'll see a lot of older people practicing Tai Chi because it's so beneficial for balance and fall prevention and it's gentle and accessible and very powerful for healing.

And it's one of those practices that you get better and better with with age.

Like you said,

You could practice that one exercise over and over and over again and still not master it.

It takes lifetimes to master it,

Right?

So it's kind of like something that's an investment in your health and you can trust,

I'll be able to do this into my hundreds.

I mean,

Scientists say that the first person to live to be 150 has been born.

And more recently they've said the first person to live a thousand years old has been born.

We're gonna see a big jump in Tai Chi practice for sure as it's this deep practice to allow you to go inward and develop that interoception.

And it's also a forever learning process.

It's kind of like I dance also just for fun,

You know,

Like salsa dance,

That sort of thing.

But tango dance,

Tango is one of the dances.

You go there and the people who are in their 80s,

They're the best on the dance floor.

Compared to salsa,

You don't see that as much.

It's a really hard dance on your knees and you wear high heels.

It's just really intense,

All the pounding.

But with tango,

The way the movement flows,

It's very much like Tai Chi and that it's a flow and a communication.

And the same thing with Tai Chi,

You're gonna get better and better and better with age as you develop those skills.

So that's one of the things that draws me to Tai Chi and makes it so beneficial for teaching my clients who may have some disabilities or limitations.

I mean,

I teach my 99 year old grandpa Tai Chi when I go visit him.

Anyone can do it.

And I've been working with a Tai Chi master,

Dr.

Paul Lingham.

He's a medical doctor who's been involved in a lot of research,

But he's also been a world champion in Tai Chi in China.

So he's got all of that depth of the practice.

And I've been diving into how do I apply the science and the art of Tai Chi.

And so that's my next project coming up.

All right,

Well,

Beautiful,

Lovely.

And I think we'll start winding down.

What kind of message would you like to leave folks with today?

My message to you to leave the audience is when I've been looking into the research,

There are three important things for happiness that researchers support,

That the science is unveiling,

And that are exactly in alignment with meditation philosophy.

And one is being present.

Two,

We also talked about is compassion or connection with others,

Something to celebrate.

And then the third one is gratitude,

Showing appreciation and feeling appreciation.

When you're feeling down,

Take a one minute meditation to cultivate that appreciation for what you have and do it in actions.

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It's the actions we bring into the world.

So the keys to happiness,

Presence and connection,

Compassion,

And also gratitude.

That's my message I wanna leave.

Well,

Beautiful,

May you all find the most optimal connections in your presence and in the gratitude that we have for these as well.

So thanks so much for joining again and may all beings everywhere realize awakening and be free.