Progressing Contact Beyond The Human Realm: Sutta Study

Randi Green and I read and study At Gaia Head (AN 8.64) using Randi's own terminology which mixes around the standard established three realm classification of desire realm, form realm and formless realm. However, plenty still meshes and aligns with this standardization too while bringing her direct experience to this sutta on stages of progressing through contact with beings in various realms

Transcript

Hey wholeness,

Welcome.

Josh here,

And today I've got Randy Green with me.

Randy,

What's going on?

Not much.

Yeah,

Good.

Hey,

This is our first sutta study,

And well,

I call it a zin story in sutta study.

I actually did two,

A really short sutta and then a longer zin story.

We've talked about some of the suttas before in past chats.

Perhaps I'll link those in the show notes or not,

But let's get dive right into this.

And we'll do at Gaia Head,

This is AN 8.

64.

And from the numbered discourses,

That's what AN is.

And I forget what that is,

But this is,

I've got two different translations here,

And then a couple of chat GPT translations.

So I'm just going to use the main one of Sujato's translation,

Ajahn Sujato's Sutta Central,

And I'm going to put in a couple of little changes.

So I'll point those out as I go.

And all right,

Here it is.

Oh,

Some little,

Before this,

I want to give a little discussion or a little preface that this is when he says light informs.

This is not the everyday light that we see in our physical world,

Central world.

He's not really talking about that for say,

Or forms like a coffee cup or another human being next to me.

This is higher level things in this.

And you'll see as we go along here.

So don't let that throw you off at first,

Like it did me.

At one time,

The Buddha was staying near Gaia or Gaia head.

There the Buddha addressed the mendicants.

Mendicants,

Before my awakening,

When I was still not awake,

But intent on awakening,

I perceived light,

But not see forms.

Okay.

So another translation has this,

I perceived auras,

Which is a spiritually or a kind of new age loaded term,

But actually I think it gets closer to what we're going for here.

And mendicants of course,

Is someone that,

You know,

Someone has not really into making a lot of money and that,

You know,

Goes for alms rounds for their,

Their meals.

Then,

Okay,

Back to,

Then it occurred to me,

What if I were to both perceive light and see forms,

Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.

And of course,

Another comment,

I,

The reason I chose this as you'll see,

Because of Randy's unique gifts and her experience.

After some time living diligent,

Keen,

And resolute,

Or I like the words ardent,

Diligent,

Ardent,

Resolute,

But we'll just go with this.

So after some time living diligent,

Keen,

And resolute,

I perceived light and saw forms,

But I did not associate with those deities,

Converse,

Or engage in discussion.

Okay.

So right here,

I want to,

This is the main thing,

Address the word deities.

So one of the translations has devas.

One has,

I think he comes later about gods and,

But I want to just say entities,

Because this,

This seems to be higher level beings,

Not on the lower,

You know,

In the Buddhist cosmology from humanity on up,

You know,

Not from humanity on down in the realms,

But I'll just say entities because the Venerable Maha Moggallana has a whole section about how he talks to hungry ghost,

But this seems maybe higher level,

But to have a broader application,

Maybe I'll just say entities or maybe I won't,

We'll see.

Okay.

So let me read that again.

Sorry to get in the weeds there.

So after some time living diligent,

Keen,

And resolute,

I perceived the light and saw forms,

But I didn't associate with those deities or entities,

Converse,

Or engage in discussion.

Then it occurred to me,

What if I were to perceive light and see forms and associate with those deity beings,

Converse and engage in discussion,

Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.

So after some time,

I perceived light and saw formed,

And I associated with those deities,

Conversed with those entities and engaged in discussion,

But I didn't know which order,

Or I'm going to change the language here.

I didn't know which order or what realm,

What group or community of gods or deities or entities these beings came from.

Then it occurred to me,

What if I were to perceive light and see forms and associate with those entities,

Converse and engage in discussion and find out which order or realm or group or community those beings came from,

Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.

So after some time,

I perceived light and saw form,

I associated with these,

With those beings,

Dot,

Dot,

Dot,

And I found out which order they came from,

What realm,

What community group they came from,

But I did not know what deeds caused those beings to be reborn there after passing away from here.

So after some time,

Dot,

Dot,

Dot,

I found out what deeds caused,

So the dot,

Dot,

Dot,

So I don't have to go through the whole thing again.

I found out what deeds caused those beings to be reborn there after passing away from here,

But I didn't know what deeds caused these beings to have such food and such experience of pleasure and pain.

So after some time,

Dot,

Dot,

Dot,

I found out what deeds caused these deities to have such food and such experience of pleasure and pain,

But I didn't know what these beings have of lifespan of such length.

So after some time,

Dot,

Dot,

Dot,

I found out that these beings have a lifespan of such a length,

But I didn't know whether or not I had previously lived together with those beings.

Then it occurred to me,

What if I were to perceive light and see forms and associate with those beings,

Converse and engage in discussion and find out which order or realm or group or community those beings come from and what deeds caused those beings to be reborn there after passing away from here and what deeds caused those beings to have such food and such experience of pleasure and pain and that these beings have a lifespan of such a length and whether or not I have previously lived together with those beings,

Then my knowledge and vision would become even more purified.

So after some time,

Dot,

Dot,

Dot,

I found out whether or not I have previously lived together with those beings.

As long as my knowledge and vision about the beings was not fully purified in these eight rounds,

I didn't announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods,

Morals,

Moras,

And divinities,

This population with its exotics and brahmins,

Its gods and humans.

But when my knowledge and vision about these beings was fully purified in these eight rounds,

I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods,

Morals,

Divinities,

This population with its exotics and brahmins,

Its gods and humans.

Knowledge and vision arose in me.

My freedom is unshakable.

This is my last rebirth.

Now there will be no more future lives.

And that is the end of the,

Um,

Uh,

Gaia Head AN 864.

So as we see,

There's,

There's eight levels and these are not normal waking human experiences of worldlings.

You know,

This is seeing into other realms and experiencing other realms.

So we just,

To recap,

We've got light form and then,

Um,

Associating,

And then we get into discussion and then,

Uh,

What order or like location or community,

Um,

They come from.

Um,

And then what caused those D what caused their rebirth,

Basically their deeds that they did,

They got them there.

And then,

Uh,

What food they took and experience of pleasure and pain and,

Um,

How long they live their lifespan.

And then we go,

Uh,

Whether or not the observer has actually,

Uh,

Had a previous incarnation since beginningless time with these,

Uh,

With these beings.

Um,

And so the,

The only thing I want to point out before I throw it over to Randy is this parallels,

Uh,

The Buddha's nine of awakening is to said where he first discerned his,

Well,

One of the stages was he discerned his own lives,

But then he was able to view this and other beings.

And part of the past life recall was exactly this,

That remembering where one lived,

You know,

Who they lived around with like this clans or the group of beings they lived with.

And then what they ate for food.

And then how long their lifespan was,

What gave them pleasure,

What provided them pain,

You know?

Um,

And I guess,

I don't know,

I can't remember whether or not they've,

You know,

If it's linked to another previous,

But that would,

That would make sense if you,

If it,

You know,

If it,

Uh,

Associated with a previous past life.

And so,

All right.

I think that's,

That's all I've got.

Um,

It's interesting though that this seems to be linked and associated with full awakening,

Right?

So,

I mean,

This would seem to imply that without this kind of experience,

Maybe one couldn't fully awaken.

So,

Uh,

When we have an academia and certain things that people just blow off these experiences as,

You know,

Myth or fairy tale or something like that,

Then this,

This seems if taken on face value like this,

It seems fairly important that this,

That these abilities are there in order for have awakening.

And it seems to mesh with the Buddha's night of awakening too,

Where he recalled this in himself and then others to the transmigration or whatever,

And seeing this in other beings.

So,

Yeah,

I got some classification questions first,

Um,

Eight rounds,

Eight,

Let's see what it says.

Bottom of the text,

It says something about the eight rounds,

The eight rounds,

Eight rounds.

Yeah.

Let me see how the other interpreters cycles.

Well,

It's these,

There's eight different rounds.

Oh,

No rounds,

Rounds,

Rounds.

So the first you get the light and form all these different stages he's talking about.

That's what it means by that rounds.

I'm pretty sure.

Right.

So is it areas or cycles?

No,

It's,

It's,

It's these,

These stages,

Basically first you see light and form,

Then you talk to them,

Then you find out what order they come from,

You know,

Then you find out what food they take and pleasure and pain.

And then whether you live,

You know,

That those different stages.

So that's,

Yeah,

That's a,

That's not really,

That's not really a great translation word there.

I was just clarification.

Yes.

Okay.

In the original text,

When you say form,

Does he then use the word Rupa or Arupa?

Yeah.

See,

I need to look at the original Polly and I use Arupa because these are the formless rounds.

It's translated soft.

I think what I think form is meaning that very subtle,

Subtle matter realms,

I would think,

You know,

Because the formless beings,

I don't know,

Maybe it applies to the formless beings too,

Are often associated with the Arupa.

So for me,

It's kind of,

For me to,

For me to understand that he begins first with,

As far as I talk about the text first,

And then my opinion later on,

As I understand what he's saying first is that he began investigating the world from the known features that he normally would work with,

With his faculties as eyes and ears and the tactile perception as it touches reality.

This,

From what I understand,

This is my thing,

This is seeing above the human realm.

So Davis on up.

And from my understanding of the Buddhist cosmology that know that the formless beings don't get into the Brahma realms,

But the things that we can't normally see with the physical eye are considered form realms,

But subtle matter,

Where you,

They do have a form that's discernible,

But it's very subtle and most people can't discern it.

The matter is most subtle,

You know,

And then it's not until you get to the formless Brahma realms,

Where there is no even subtle form.

Right.

And I think so.

So anywhere,

I don't know,

If I had to guess,

It would say just anywhere above the human realm is what he's mentioning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm just trying to understand the process that he's going through.

That's investigation.

So as I perceive it here,

He first begins,

He has now worked his way through the understanding of how his eyes and ears and smell and senses are acting with the worlds of form,

The Rupa worlds.

And that goes from,

As you've just said,

The four realms beneath human and the human realm with the Rupa realms.

Above the human realm.

No,

That's the Arupa.

Above humans Arupa.

Human realms is the last Rupa realm,

That the form realm.

Yeah.

Beneath us are four other realms that are Rupa realms,

Form realms,

Dense realms,

Where we take on form that is slow and dense and not subtle.

There's the animal hungry ghost,

I think the yaka or something like that.

And then the hell realms and there's many hell realms.

So that's below the human,

I think,

Considered and I might be missing something in the human and above would be human in certain class of devas,

Then then the Brahma realms.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And the Brahma realms is where we go into what we typically associate with the manas,

The putras,

The mind born,

The Brahmas are the mind born.

So there we go into what we could classify as a monastic,

Or the manas,

The mind,

In its more subtle form,

Where again,

Associated these realms as I see it,

And I know this is not how people typically interpret it.

But for me,

The eight jhanas only makes sense when we begin to talk about the different stages of subtle energies of the different realms,

Because the eight jhanas and that's why I wanted to understand the eight stages you were talking about,

Because that could be associated either with directly with the eight jhanas,

Or perhaps sub levels of the eight jhanas,

Which I don't know,

Because this is not a practice that I'm doing in this life.

I'm just putting together here how I perceive what you read there and how I would address it.

So the first most important thing is,

Of course,

To have the right words.

And I think,

I think the the aura is perhaps better than light.

Because when you begin to go into the subtle energies,

And you begin to connect with the devas,

The rupa realms that are in our rupa realm,

That is the devas that are in nature,

The devas that are around us that the devas that that,

As when I woke up was the first I came in contact with as well,

I began my own practice in this life,

In meditation and deep contemplation.

And I began with the heart qualities,

I began with the compassion exercises,

As actually Dalai Lama,

Teaches his people to do the great in breath and out breath and compassion and breathing in the pain of the world and breathing out the transformed level of it in compassion.

And with that,

Got myself situated in the understanding of being able to see the world pain and accept the world pain.

And with that associate myself with the world pain,

But also disconnect from the world pain.

Tonglen,

I think is the name of that.

So in that way,

That that kind of ignited my kindness within myself to realize that,

Yes,

This world is full of pain,

It's full of stress,

It's full of disorder.

It's not in harmony anymore.

And people are suffering under these that we call it unlawful,

Disharmonic,

Disharmonious,

Yeah,

Ways of existence that we are now currently put under.

And as far as I recall it from my past life,

As a practitioner within a Tibetan monastery,

A little outskirts in the mountains,

Which I don't know what's called,

I don't know where it is,

Because it's a past life,

I only have my memories of in situ,

Seeing myself being there,

I'm not thinking about what the name of the place is,

I'm not thinking about my own name,

As we don't do in this life,

We don't walk around saying,

Oh,

My name is this or that,

Whatever,

We're just existing,

Which is us here,

Experiencing reality and past lives go come about that,

Unless someone says something,

Or another past life I have,

Where I actually look myself in the mirror,

So I can see but this,

We didn't have mirrors.

So I don't know how to look,

I know I'm a young man,

That's all I know.

And I know my demise,

But that's another story.

So in the practice of reawakening what I already had practiced in a previous life,

But in within a different system.

So that's important for people to understand here as well,

That where I found the most relief in understanding the way I had been trained was within the color chakra.

And that's why I reverted to Dalai Lama and his teachings,

Even though that he is not what I would see as a teacher I would follow in this lifetime,

Let me put it this way.

So I'm not following the practice.

So we're here relying on my current knowledge.

What I've studied mostly within what we could call the esoteric teaching systems.

And that's where I have my terminology from which might not be the same as people who are studying the text.

For people who are new to me,

I have a bachelor's degree in theology.

And that's why I'm very keen on the words to begin with,

Because when we talk ancient languages,

Each word has multiple meanings depending on the context it's in.

And we must also remember the cultural setting,

And where the Buddha came from,

And what path he was on,

And the narrative around his story,

As well as the narrative around the situation around himself,

The in situ,

Where he was at the time of his existence.

But what I'm hearing here,

And we'll take the text as face value,

As if it actually was from the Buddha,

It doesn't really matter,

Because I can,

Whether this is written actually from the Buddha,

Or someone else claims to be teaching the stories of the Buddha,

And using the traditional old trick of these old texts,

Is to have a conversation with the Buddha,

And then pretend to either be one of the listeners,

Or one that I have heard,

Or actually are a little bit cheeky,

Let me put it this way,

And pretend to actually be the Buddha saying that.

That's typical for ancient texts,

We have that,

Both within Christianity,

As well as Judaism,

The Abrahamic religions,

And we're also seeing it in the other types of text that we have got left as a remnant from these ancient or early civilizations.

So in that way,

Let's just put that in context,

So we are not blindly stepping in,

Oh yeah,

This is actually what the Buddha said,

Because he was teaching orally,

And it was not written down until later,

And that means a lot of things could have slipped in the meantime.

And there were also decisions and councils that decided which were the right teachings,

And which were not.

But this is one of the rare ones you found.

Yeah,

Exactly.

It was hard to define that.

And if you don't mind,

I'll just read a summary recap,

Just through it again.

And this is from ChatGPT,

And I'll just read it verbatim.

At one time,

The Blessed One was dwelling at Gaia,

Gaia,

Gaia Sisa,

There indeed the Blessed One addressed the monks.

Monks,

Before my awakening,

When I was not yet fully awakened,

Still only a Bodhisattva,

I perceived light,

But did not see forms.

It occurred to me,

If I could both perceive light and also see forms,

Then my knowledge and vision would be even purer.

So then I'm going to skip down to the last paragraph.

So I,

Monks,

After going through all these different ways,

This is a summary of it.

So I,

Monks,

At a later time,

Dwelling diligent,

Ardent,

And resolute,

Indeed perceived light,

Saw forms,

Stood together with those deities,

Conversed and engaged in discussion with them.

And I also knew these deities belong to such and such a group of deities.

And I also knew these deities,

Due to the results of their kama,

Have passed away from here and been reborn there.

And I also knew these deities have such food and experiences such as pleasure and pain.

And I also knew these deities have long lifespans and endure for a long time.

And I also knew whether I had previously dwelled together with those deities or not.

As long as my divine knowledge and vision had not been purified in this way,

Monks,

I did not yet declare in this world with its Devas,

Maras,

And Brahmins,

With its ascetics and Brahmins,

Its beings and Devas and humans,

I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment.

But when my divine knowledge and vision was purified in this way,

Monks,

Then I declared in this world with its Devas,

Maras,

And Brahmins,

With its ascetics and Brahmins,

Its beings and Devas and humans,

I am fully awakened to unsurpassed perfect enlightenment.

And knowledge and vision arose in me.

Unshakable is my liberation of mind.

This is my final birth.

There is no further rebirth.

" So basically,

Yeah,

There's these different ways to discern once you meet a being in a different realm,

Right?

That's higher than the human realm,

Which is referred to as divine by this more literal interpretation by Chachi Pt.

So yeah,

Yeah.

As I see that text,

And again,

When we work with the ancient text,

The question we should ask ourself is always what's the purpose and function of that text?

What is it that it wants to convey to us that are studying these texts,

Not because we want to get the answers,

But because we want to understand how the path works.

And what the contemplation practices are on the path.

And what is it that we need to derive from our own practices,

Our own practice?

So using that as a model of how to do this?

Sure.

The answer for this would be is when his divine knowledge and vision was purified in the way that was laid out,

Then he could then he could declare,

I'm fully awakened unsurpassed perfect enlightenment,

Unshakable is my liberation of mind.

He's no longer going to reverse.

So that would be the Buddhist purpose for doing that.

Supposedly,

Well,

That's what Yeah,

Exactly.

That's all we have to work with.

You get in contact with the Deva realms doesn't mean you're done with your rebirth cycles.

No,

No,

That's right.

So that's why it wasn't just contact,

Right?

It was all these different stages.

So I would still if I would still say that the last bit is an interpolation that's been put in later.

Yeah.

And there's that common thing among scholars now that say this might have been been added.

But you know,

Yeah,

That's it's a good question.

I would say what I guess in your opinion,

What I would ask is what is the do you find value in and having this level of knowledge with other beings,

You know,

Going through,

You know,

What what order or rank they're from basically classification,

You know,

That you can see them,

You can discuss and talk with them,

Which you've had interface basically,

Right.

And then you can tell what group some of these come from.

And then,

But I haven't talked heard about so much is this knowledge of Okay,

You can see what what now actually have used their past actions,

And then where they are now,

You've talked to being a releaser.

So you've talked about something on that level,

I would like to stay with the text for pleasure and pain,

Because I find it super important.

And I hear where you want to go.

But for me,

I want to point out here that those who are starting these texts,

They need to understand how to look at this first methodically.

And as I said,

I'm not using scholastic methods here.

I'm not I haven't studied this as a scholars that have come up with this or that or whatever.

What I'm going with here is first and foremost,

I'm doing what we call a kind of psychic energetic interpretation of it.

And the first thing that first I need to understand the words,

So I get the right understanding of the words,

Because the words themselves,

These keywords,

Rupert Rupert Davis are super important.

Well,

That's the so we've got a we've got a challenge right there.

Because this is this is an English interpretation of a Pali.

And it's also said that Pali wasn't the language of the Buddha was written down later.

And then you know,

Then we've got the different counsel.

So there's a whole line of things.

So all we really have to work with is this right now.

Yes.

But the reason why I am doing that is because when we work with first and foremost,

The words in these texts,

And I need a little bit longer time here to show you just just remember that the other Zen stories,

Eight pages,

So yes,

But please.

Okay,

So am I kind of on a limitation?

No,

No,

No,

No,

There's no,

Just a limitation of my hard drive.

Okay,

So first and foremost,

The light,

The latter part of that one is energetically dissimilar to the rest of the text.

And that's why I right away spotted it was an interpolation.

So I want to take that away when I said what is the purpose and function of this text.

So first,

I'm classifying the words themselves,

Because each of these words are part of a thought form.

And the Buddhist teachings,

As well as with all ancient teachings that are working with the ancient or the otherworldly realms are always connected to thought forms.

First,

The word themselves tell you which classification we're dealing with.

So we're here saying,

Okay,

We are in the Arupa realms,

That is clear from the text as I see it.

Okay,

But just say,

Because this is me getting how I interpret that.

I see.

That means formless.

So this mentions form.

Yes,

Because the Devas are per definition formless in the manner of compared to the Rupa forms,

As I began in the first five realms.

Okay,

I guess that's not how,

But anyway,

We'll just go with that.

Yeah,

Because I think they just call it subtle,

Subtle form,

And then formless.

So yeah,

Anyway.

Yes.

Again,

I'm not using the way you're interpreting things.

So I need to do it within my system as I understand it.

So the first five levels are what we call the Rupa forms that you have classified.

We have,

As I have seen them and experienced them myself.

This is not me studying some text and saying,

Oh,

This is what I read somewhere.

This is how I've seen it,

How I experienced it.

Technically,

Even though that it is often said that there are only four realms beneath the human,

Which is in the esoterics are talked about the mineral level,

The plant level,

The animal,

And then we have as the fourth,

Actually the human.

The Hindu teachings talks about seven lesser realms in the underworld.

And for me,

When I look at that classification system,

There are the base level of it is the Naga realms.

I know there's a round before that's kind of called the hell realm.

That is where you have the different fires.

That is not just fires,

We understand it,

But it's different types of fires that are purging the forms from being so,

So,

What do you call it dense,

That only the fires can purify them.

At that point,

The beings that are there no longer have any essence,

They no longer have free will,

They no longer eat,

They no longer they are just in these purging,

Purging fires.

That's all that they are in.

And they're not fires as we understand them.

Some of them are blue,

White light,

Some of them are other forms of lights.

They're kind of what we could say,

A type of flames more than fire.

So that's how they're associated.

And they purge these very,

Very dense,

I always say gross,

But they're gross as a kind of very,

Very raw,

Dense type of matter thing.

And then you go up to,

We have around where we have all the Nagas,

Kind of the snake realms.

And we have around where we have the Yakis,

These are kind of the evil demons,

The evil spirits,

Which are demons,

Because they're organic,

When you come in contact with them,

Psychic energetically,

It's like being in contact with another human.

So that's what I mean with the root pack,

When you are in contact with them,

It gives a tactile sensation,

It gives us,

It uses the normal human senses to investigate it,

You sense it by your normal human senses.

But it is 4D though,

Right?

No,

No,

No,

Let's go,

We stay completely within the text of this one,

Completely within And just so you know,

These are,

These are,

From what I gather,

These are divine realms above all those.

Yeah.

Yes,

We're not talking about the four realms below human,

The Rupa realms.

So the Rupa realms are associated with in the practice,

When you investigate them,

When you come in contact with them,

You use your human senses,

It,

It touches your human senses,

It touches your smell,

Even though it's kind of what we say a high order type of sense,

Because you're not smelling it physically,

You can actually,

If they come very close,

You can actually smell them with a human smell,

They will give an order in the room,

An inner scent,

An inner smell.

Yes.

And you can actually hear they can,

It depends on how close they get to you in this realm in the human realm.

But they the thing with the Rupa realms is that they they are kind of joined together in a pattern,

They're interacting with each other.

And when the person or the Buddha in the text says that,

That that he is sitting in that and first using his his senses as within that he normally does in this reality,

Then you will get in contact with a certain class of entities,

A certain group of entities that are associated with that same type of sensing mechanism.

And that's why you need to go into the more subtle energies,

The more lesser what we call Rupa oriented or foam oriented introspection of what you are experiencing.

And that goes as well with if you're as as far as I know,

In the practice,

As I did as well,

I can't say what the Buddha did,

Because I wasn't there.

But as far as the text goes,

It appears as if he's mostly meditating outside.

So that's kind of it's under the tree,

He's sitting out there,

He's wandering on the on the road he is.

So we rarely hear him a story where he sits in a house meditating.

Well,

There's,

Yeah,

There's a lot of stories of him dwelling in forests.

There's also a certain like Anandapindika's park in pleasure parks,

But also in pleasure palaces.

There are some that have built monasteries for him at Jedha's Grove,

Places like this,

But yes,

Both in monasteries that have been built in power,

But but mainly a lot of times outside.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And with that,

Of course,

When you go into the subtle energies,

And you then become in your jhana practice,

Again,

As I said,

As I experienced,

And I understand it,

Some,

There are different levels of the jhana practices,

The first four of them associate with what we call the more Rupa oriented experiences that levels this up and makes it more and more subtle.

And then you have the latter four that then goes way beyond but within the first four jhanas,

You will have the Rupa and Arupa experiences.

And I have to use that terminology.

That's right.

Doesn't make sense,

Because technically,

Even though it is a Rupa,

It does still have a kind of form.

It's just a form,

As we can say of light or a form of auras,

A form of,

Of a different mechanism of which you come in contact with them.

So instead of having the five senses that you're normally using,

As it said,

In other text material that you have read up,

That's part of your your work.

I forgot which text it is the ear consciousness and eye consciousness.

Sure,

Sure.

That's the Scott.

That's the,

You know,

The senses.

Yeah.

And it's a five senses plus in Theravada,

The six senses mind in that encompasses pretty much everything else.

Yes.

And so there's mind consciousness,

I consciousness in when it when a physical eye meets a form,

And there's contact,

I consciousness arises.

That's what it said.

Same way with all the senses,

Even mind.

Yes,

Exactly.

And that's,

That's what happens when you are in the Rupa realms,

When you use your,

Your your Rupa faculties,

You will engage with what is in the Rupa realms,

What is associated energetically,

Or in,

In various,

Quote,

Unquote,

Forms within that realm,

Then you go into the more subtle energies,

And suddenly there is a different type.

That's why we kind of move a little bit.

And I'm not saying it's the same.

But there's a little bit same idea that we have with particles and waveforms.

Little bit,

I'm not saying it is the same.

But the idea is similar,

There's a similar idea of something is touchable,

Something is non touchable,

Something works in a one way in within physics,

And another thing works in another way within physics.

And that's where again,

I'll just throw in a little bit here where,

As we have discovered in mindfulness practices,

Where psychology is now discovering,

Oh,

That's very similar to what we can actually use,

Etc,

Etc.

So people around the planet that have used contemplation meditation techniques to investigate reality have come up with very similar ideas.

And when we squeeze modern science,

We will see that some of the greatest thinkers were sometimes practitioners of meditation,

Or had visions,

Or had other insights that technically came as visions,

As pop up ideas within their head.

And that text that you have picked up shows that very well.

It shows that in his meditation,

And contemplation over these questions,

Ideas arose,

Answers came.

And with that,

He got more and more nuanced ways,

More and more subtle ways of engaging with reality,

Instead of just relying on the senses.

He began to rely more on what we say the faculties of mind,

Which is not completely accurate.

Because when we're talking about the deva realms,

The first ones you get in contact with are typically the ones I associated with nature.

That's why I want to point out that he might have experienced this in nature,

That that mesh as well,

Because that's the lower level of the data is part of this reality.

And they come in,

As far as I learned.

That's why I pointed out first the content,

The compassion practice,

Because these the divers in nature,

They are like,

The less they have different classifications.

So the first one,

They in this,

In a way,

There are similar to the four realms beneath the human that are associated with the form realms that are associated with our being where humans are technically the highest level,

But we can easily slither back into the previous four realms.

And does it then mean that we are going through the life cycles from the lesser realms into the human realm?

And my answer would be a clear no.

The human realms,

As I understand these teachings,

Including as I far,

As I remember within these processes of ideas,

Is that the human realm is where we get born into,

And then we can only revert back,

We can regress.

We're not kind of once we regress,

There are two stages,

The first two stages under the human where we can get back into the human realm,

The two,

The devil realms of the flame realms.

Once you're there,

You don't have mind,

You don't have faculties,

You don't have perception,

You're just part of it.

And with that,

It's a kind of you're stuck there,

You don't get out there.

Once you're there,

You're stuck there.

But you can through your actions in this life become part of the yakka or the demon realms,

You can turn into demon by the actions in the human realm.

And so just a brief note,

I don't think that meshes entirely with the Buddhist understanding.

And like,

This is just me repeating things.

So I don't have enough knowledge to say on my own.

But they're just basically saying due to past actions,

That's what's caused wherever birth you take,

If we're taking this more literally,

Right?

And that once the time lifespan runs out in like a hell realm,

Well,

Then you're going to take another birth,

Whether it be in the hell realm again,

Or due to really long,

You know,

Or who knows how long previous life that you might have actually done something good in one of those lifetimes that just hasn't fruited yet.

But then after that life in the hell realm,

Well,

Then that karma actually then will take effect,

Where then you can take a higher birth,

But there's no guarantee or knowing,

You know,

Or whatever.

And so it's basically you can go up and down these ladders based on based on one's action with intent.

But you know,

That that's my limited understanding.

And that's not based on anything other than than books.

So yeah,

But this is where it's important because it's hard to know that's more like a Christian interpretation,

Like,

Like a hell will last forever.

Right?

Not I shouldn't,

I shouldn't.

But they also believe a hell is forever,

Right?

No,

I don't.

I don't want to bring Christianity.

Well,

We can stay with the two pieces here.

As I said,

From the beginning,

My,

The teachings I have from my past life is based upon very similar to what's called Kala Chakra.

Yes.

And it is rooted in Tibetan interpretation of Buddhism.

Yes.

And that means when we talk about the people of Tibet that that became Buddhists,

They in their teachings are a lot of realms of different forms of entities that you don't have in Theravada.

Yes,

They have a lot of deity practice.

And some say they borrow from the bond tradition in Tibet.

No,

It's as far as I know,

And this is not me studying this.

This is what I know.

I'm talking about my knowledge.

And it could be correct and could be completely incorrect.

But as far as I recall,

And I remember what I was told,

Living there,

Being a Buddhist monk in Tibet,

That the traditions within the different systems,

We could say,

The thing that kind of pops up in my mind was that since we incorporate,

I have to say we let me just go right back into who and what my previous version of myself here.

The way I was taught it was it was so natural part of our practice that these entities were there and entities are often associated with below human devas and deities above human.

Exactly.

That's what I was saying.

So we can't call the ones above human entities that would be wrong.

It's below human.

That's where the mistake I made.

The reason I chose entity was just to have a broader scope on interface.

But yeah,

I was wrong because all these interpret all these translations didn't use entity.

That was my bad.

They're all gods,

Devas,

Or divine beings.

And let me put right here,

Right here,

When we talk about the devas,

They are some of the first classes over the human,

The deities above Brahma realms.

So let us put this into that's why I was confusing all these different words.

And the only reason why they're addressed as quote unquote deities is because above the Brahma realm,

These entities,

Which is wrong,

But these beings more correct,

Are seeing themselves as gods.

It's not the same as we need to see them as gods,

But they see themselves as gods,

Because they live for so long spans,

That they have kind of got that's the issue with the Manasaputra is this mind born is that they are in such a subtle energy that they,

Their their cycles of existence is so long.

And they get all I have to use human terminology here,

They get all hyped up with this ability to stay almost eternal.

And that way they see themselves as gods.

But that's not the same as they are.

And that's one of the thing that that in in the in situ in the situation of my past life,

We were fully aware of the self deception of these different classes of Arupa beings.

And that's why I wanted to go with Arupa Arupa,

Because it's a it's an important critical classification and understanding how to deal with these beings.

So your step one,

Rupa,

Good,

We have the first five classes of which the two bottom classes are no longer able to undo their acts,

Or regain the ability for a higher manifestation or prefer manifestation over rebirth.

Because when you are part of these cycles,

It's only within the human realm and the animal realm and the bird realm inside this realm that we are part of that people get born.

That's right.

And because they call it spontaneous birth,

Like the Deva realm,

Brahma realm is a spontaneous birth,

Not a womber born,

Not waterborne,

Not egg born.

So it's spontaneous.

That's the word.

But then the hell thing would they say,

Yeah,

All you can basically do in the hell realms is wait for the lifespan to end.

That's it.

You only have anything else other than complete suffering and tell that lifespan is no really choice to do that.

And that's even though flames come in,

Because then then you literally are purged completely into nothingness.

Although there is one Jataka tale where the Buddha offers to help somebody in hell realm and he's immediately reborn out of it,

But I don't know how that works.

Anyway,

It may be go to a john put a demo who specializes in the stuff to find out about like this,

But or chatty Pete or something.

But anyway,

Yeah,

That's fascinating.

So please continue.

Okay,

So there can be beings that are drawn into the two lower hell realms,

Not by their free will or volition,

But because they're dragged there due to trickery,

And these you can release.

And I've done that personally.

So you can go in and snatch them and bring them out.

But there there will be their cost doing so.

So it's not something you do out of your goodwill,

Whatever.

Okay,

So so that's a whole other discussion.

Then there are the two intermediary realms that one is the demon realm and the snake realm and the demon realm.

And the snake realm is often associated with the Nargis and the Nargis they have a lot of palaces there and they have they're associated with gemstones and diamonds,

And all sorts of things.

And that is also a kind of a version of,

Of wisdom.

A gemstone is when you're in contact with the Naga realms,

A gemstone is associated with a type of wisdom,

Which is interesting in itself.

So so when people are saying,

Well,

I got this gem,

We are using it in our language as well.

Even the three jewels in Buddhism.

Yeah,

Exactly.

So that's the Naga teaching.

So when you're again,

Language is super important.

Maybe I should say maybe.

No,

No.

But when we talk about language in these texts.

Yeah,

A gem of wisdom,

It's a gem.

I came across this wisdom gem.

It tells you what you're dealing with in your contemplation practices,

Because people,

Again,

When we're studying these ancient texts,

They are not to be interpreted,

Literally,

They are having hidden wisdom within wisdom within levels of wisdom.

They are never directly telling us.

So here the understanding of the words tell us the classification,

The different kind of concepts,

What's ever thrown in there tells us how we are to work with this in our contemplation.

You see,

Studying these texts on for me on the right level,

As far as I recall it,

Again,

Two steps here is the understanding of what to look for.

And that,

Of course,

Could be a projection.

It could be an interpretation that is way over beyond whatever it was said.

But that's my tradition.

So in where I came from,

First and foremost,

We grew up with the understanding of all of these subtle forms,

The Aruba realms and all the beings that were there beneath us and above us,

Completely natural,

Born into it,

Part of our everyday life.

That's part of the Tibetan tradition.

It's there because the people that lived before the time of the Buddha were living with nature,

Which we now call either heretic or pagan or whatever they would call it today.

But that was a natural way of living.

These are mountain people.

When you live in mountain areas,

There are mountain beings.

There are the beings of the soil,

There are beings of the sun,

There are beings of everything that,

Not the sun itself,

But they emanate using the energies of the sun,

Or they emanate through,

And I use the word instead of birth,

I use emanate,

They emanate from the wind,

They're associated with the wind.

If the wind has certain faculties or things to it,

Then these beings can emanate out of it,

They can get a short span,

Quote unquote,

Emanation or birth into this realm where you can contact with them.

If they can get in contact with you,

They can prolong their existence.

So in that way,

It's a completely natural understanding of having these different realms as part of your cosmology.

And that's where Tibetan Buddhism differs highly from Theravada.

When we talk about the Buddha himself,

As far as I know,

And what I have learned in this life,

And whether it's true or not,

We don't know,

But he was born as a Raja.

That means he came from a royal lineage.

And he was born in a heart,

Which was not just about having faculties and knowledge and information from previous birth,

It was also specific classification within the priesthood lineages.

So he was born with a specific concept of reality that was tied to Hinduism,

And the different gods,

And the worshipping of the different gods.

Well,

I'll just throw a little bit of,

Not corrections,

But from my understanding that he became an Arhant after full awakening as a title,

Meaning a certain thing,

But I know what it's kind of predestined or prophesized to become that.

So I guess we could say that.

And then also what was the other thing you said?

I will call that a manipulation,

Actually.

Again,

I'm remote viewing this.

It could be true or not.

I'm remote viewing this.

For me,

As I understand the Raja and the royal lineages.

No,

He was of the royal class in India,

But Arhant is a title.

No,

That came later.

Later.

That's what I'm saying.

In the original,

As far as I know,

The original teachings and the original understanding of the classes of India,

A Raja or a royal lineage and nobility,

Nobility,

Pay attention to the word noble.

Noble is a heart.

A heart means noble.

So you're born a nobility,

You're born in a heart.

And again,

There are different interpretations.

The word that they're at least modernly translated as noble is Aryan,

Actually.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And I'm avoiding that word deliberately.

Oh,

I see.

Okay.

So sorry about that.

So Arhant is,

From my understanding,

There's four stages of awakening,

A stream enterer,

Once returned,

Non-returned.

That's later.

Right.

It's a fully awakened being.

And let me explain why that's later.

Because again,

People,

This is not studied.

I'm just tapping into this information,

Thought forms right away.

First and foremost,

The teachings of the Buddha has later by the councils,

Which the Tripitaka councils or whatever.

The Buddhist councils.

There have been several of them.

Yes.

Were made from being a teachings of nobility and a heart lineages,

Iron lineages within the Brahmins and the priestly cultures into becoming an every man teaching.

The Buddha resigned,

Let me use that word,

From his birthright.

He stepped out of his birthright as a noble nobility,

Royal born with all of the cast prerogatives you has as a nobility,

As a Roger,

As a noble born.

He's normally classed as the military and the warrior and what was the other?

I guess,

Yeah.

Ruling like kings.

Kings and warriors were one class.

And supposedly in ancient Egypt,

There was one above them,

The Brahminical and the priest class,

Basically.

At that time,

They were classed above and he was known for going against the social order of India and allowing anyone to learn about awakening and whatever.

Yes.

So that was strictly within specific classes within India.

So what Siddhartha did was he renounced his birthright.

Renounced,

Yes.

Yeah,

Renounced.

So he left the palace and he went out into the world and he took on him different practices.

Yes.

What we then have later on is that when you try to build a bridge between something you're born into and something you achieve by practice,

You have to have a keyword that bridges these two things.

And that's where they retailer a heart to become something you can become via the noble eightfold path.

So you can get the same prerogatives as the ones that were born into the nobility.

And this is a completely different level of information.

So but that's the point.

That's why I'm saying,

Again,

This is my internal information,

Why they changed the concept of the AHA from being something you could only be born into as a caste prerogative into something you could achieve through your practice.

And this goes along with what he taught the Brahmins that you're not a Brahmin by birth.

You're a Brahmin by deed,

Action and practice.

Right.

It doesn't matter.

And that's why we have the word noble in the noble eightfold path.

And it's not kind of,

As you say,

The correct behavior.

It's the noble behavior associating you with the heart prerogatives that you can achieve not by birth,

But by practice.

Study.

And that's how every manization,

Every man can become a become enlightened because he can achieve these noble traits that earlier were associated with the priesthood class that you can achieve yourself.

And at the same time,

Not shaking the apple cart by it's the noble truth of suffering.

Right.

We have some of these beings that feed on causing suffering,

But the Buddha didn't necessarily go against that.

But he said is the noble truth of suffering,

But there's also the noble truth of the cessation of suffering.

Yeah.

So that's,

That's where the noble gets changed into the ability as a warrior concept of being awake and aware of being in the,

The,

The,

When you become and a heart through your own practice,

And you get that,

That classification,

Then that means that you are fully aware of what you're dealing with.

You become as,

As kind of,

You see,

In the,

In the system of India,

When you're born as a noble,

You were aware of the system,

You had the governing faculties,

You were the one that were aware of how to work with other classes of society,

You were governing the other classes of society,

You were the ruling factor,

You were the ruling hand,

You could go in and determine the destiny over other people.

And the priesthood classes did the same thing,

You had the ones of the kings,

And then you had the ones within the priesthood classes.

And they were a completely different breed.

And I don't want to go into that,

They were playing on other tangents of how they had their power.

But what the Buddha then taught people,

That through the noble,

The right use of energy and your awareness,

I'll use awareness here instead of consciousness,

Once you gain the prerogatives of becoming a noble and at heart with your own rights,

Then it would be by your own work,

Your own effort,

Your own investigation,

And your own experiences that were then nobility in that manner,

Were then associated with true wisdom,

Seeing reality as it truly is,

Not but when you begin by birthright and what were to kind of strengthen your own power position within the caste system,

Because they used that with wrongful use of energy and power to govern through their birthright,

Quote unquote,

And if there were any disputes,

Birthright.

That's just how it was.

If you were poor,

You had no choice.

And he called into question that when they did the hymns and the Vedas,

He said,

How many of you in this day and age actually have direct,

Basically I'm paraphrasing have direct experience of this,

Basically reciting these things,

But how many actually can go to those realms and verify where this information comes for oneself,

And none of them could really do it.

But the Buddha claimed to and he said,

So yeah,

That's right in this.

So what the Buddha did,

Again,

Let me speak on the behalf of the Buddha as I understand it,

Whether it's true or not.

But what he did was he broke down that entire caste system.

That's what and he takes the same concept of breaking down the caste system and,

And kind of superimposed onto the deities as well.

And saying that after he had worked with people inside the Rupa realms and all the different levels,

Because he meets a lot of different entities beneath himself while he's out in nature,

Why he's going through his different stages,

And he's tested by Mara and all of these kind of things.

And he afterwards,

He invited a certain time of his day for other beings to come visit and ask questions too,

From what I understand.

But Mara is the king,

Quote,

Unquote,

Of the yakas,

Or the demon realm.

So Mara is the king of the demon realm.

So of course,

Because Siddhartha is a king himself,

Then he will only meet the highest level of the different kingdoms or realms of these entities.

And also Mara claims to be the false leader of the highest central heaven realm,

Those who delight in the creation of others too.

He claims to be the god of that realm too,

But he's not anyway.

So go ahead.

Yes.

So of course,

That's why he meets the highest level.

And he also meets the lesser,

But just put it this way,

When we meet the different deities and the different devas and the different entities,

These different classes of Rupa,

Rupa beings,

They pop up according to the type of energy we're in.

And that's the Sutra you got there that talks about that too,

In this little bit clunkier way,

It talks about how you,

Through your different interpretation of what your senses meet and come in contact with,

You come in contact with the equal type of entity or deva or deity.

Well,

Yeah,

Whatever he was doing,

He then finally started talking to them,

Found out what their realm,

What realm or classification they belong to.

Then he found out,

You know,

What they did,

What did they do to lead them there in their past lives?

So he determined their karma,

Karma,

And then found out,

And this,

This is a really interesting one that blows kind of my mind to determine what gave them pleasure and pain and what kind of food did they eat?

You know,

A lot of these deva realms are said to eat this amrita,

This divine nectar or whatever they eat.

And some of these deva realms in the stories are said that they can't miss a meal.

And it's a really kind of subtle substance that they have to,

That they live on.

And then there's been wars with the jealous gods over some of this stuff.

But yeah,

I don't know.

And then also if whether he actually lived amongst them at some point in previous lives or something like that.

So that's a lot of stuff to figure out in these realms that most people don't even have contact with,

You know,

I think the contemplation of whether or not he lived with this in the last realm is the first if we're saying it's a legit text would be,

It could be another one who had let me put this way,

The text has authenticity to it.

This is someone who has experienced something I'm just highly doubting it's the Buddha.

Okay,

Let me put it this way.

My parallel would be your remembrance of working who you worked with on the workstations,

Right?

Yeah,

I don't want to put that let's keep it within this because otherwise we're confusing people.

This is about when you do Sudha studies,

I know,

It's important to understand which context are you working within?

Sure.

And we can't spread it out to all sorts of other things.

And this is where my bachelor degree kicks in.

Well,

But this is why I'm asking you for this,

Because this points to direct experience.

And while it's a text,

Yeah,

It's actually something with the devils because I plan to experience with the devil.

Let's do that.

I got with the demon realms as well.

We'll just keep it within the context.

So yeah,

We'll keep it in the context.

So were you ever able to determine what they ate?

And how they were going to get pleasure in playing?

So sorry,

And we're we'll have to do a part two on the next text,

Because we're almost up to an hour here.

But yeah,

My personal experience is they don't eat,

They don't eat,

They absorb.

Oh,

That's part of the realm of quote,

Unquote,

Food.

They're part of the realm.

They're,

They're,

As I said,

They emerge out of the wind.

So they are,

Quote,

Unquote,

Fed by the wind.

Oh,

Brilliant.

They are emerging out of the trees.

So quote,

Unquote,

Once they go back into the trees,

They are part of the tree,

The processes of the tree.

I would say that that what you refer to where they are,

Quote,

Unquote,

Eating certain things,

We've heard gods eat certain things,

Or whatever we have that are called across many cultures,

That came into be when humans began to figure out how to,

To get the benefit of the gods,

What you call grace,

Yeah,

You you figure out,

Okay,

They're eating honey,

Or whatever you would put out honey,

So that they would look good kind at you.

So they would protect your household.

Sure.

So that's a human manipulation of quote,

Unquote,

The gods.

But they are what here we're talking about,

If we're talking about some kind of sustenance to be ingested,

That's a rupa realm,

That's a form realm that belongs to the lesser realms.

Yes,

Because it said the,

The higher Brahman formless realm,

They eat joy and bliss,

That's their food,

Joy and bliss.

Yes.

So yeah,

Which is again,

I would highly Yeah,

But I mean,

Whatever that means,

But yeah,

No,

I again,

This is where I find the translations bad.

But we must remember that the ones that wrote this,

They were not highly trained and educated,

Philosophy,

Philosophical oriented with a broad spectrum of words.

So they,

Of course,

Would a lot of them probably didn't have the experiences either.

So it's these words,

These words are used symbolically.

So what it means when they say that they feed off joy,

And what you say,

Bliss,

Bliss,

Yeah,

Means that,

That they thrive in environments where there is joy and bliss.

So when you are in your meditative state,

Enjoy and bliss,

It is easier to get in contact with them.

Yeah.

And that would make sense.

Because there's a correspondence between which jhana there is in which realm beings associated with whatever realm that is.

So that would make it would lie.

So they are attracted,

Because they have desire.

Again,

We need to use the terminology that Buddha used himself,

He used the words thirst,

Desire,

Attraction,

We're drawn to,

We crave it.

And that's,

That's where we get to this.

But that doesn't mean that he's talking about eating.

And he might say,

What are they,

Instead of saying,

What are they eating?

What are they living?

Subsistence?

Yeah,

How are they human interpretation of what it means?

And it's not particularly the pleasure and pain.

Yeah,

What what gives them what are they doing with their time?

You know,

What do they prefer their preferences,

Right?

Like,

Yeah,

What?

Yeah.

And that's,

Again,

Also,

When we talk about the ancient languages,

Especially the languages in the quote,

Unquote,

Esoteric text,

Or the text that I work with their,

The multilayered aspects of our reality in the hidden realms,

They might be associated with a specific way of a word like like food,

In the human realm in our traditional language,

That word would be used as food.

But in the politics,

As well as in the Hebrew text,

As well as in some of the Greek text,

We're talking about a language where one word has multiple meaning.

Well,

Exactly.

And even that one,

There's the four nutriments,

One of only one of them is physical food,

The other ones,

Emotions,

Thoughts,

And consciousness,

Right?

So yeah.

So you could say,

Well,

What kind of as we already said,

But just to be understanding,

When people read this in English,

Good point,

They need to question themselves,

Is this an actual?

Sure.

Or is it a symbolic?

Yes.

Because the ones that wrote it didn't have another word,

They didn't have the word sub sustenance,

They didn't have the word of being emerged into they didn't have the word to,

To kind of an osmosis effect.

They didn't have these fancy words.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was easier just to say,

Well,

They feed of this,

Then everybody would understand.

And I've got that flaw too,

Because I think my early years,

Having been in a Christian day school where we didn't do much,

Maybe just one hour,

It was,

It was basically taught literally.

And so that,

That,

That runs maybe deep and okay.

So now this last one,

Before we start wrapping up here about whether or not they have some memories of actually being born or living with those,

That group of beings,

Or maybe they meet it means in a broader realm,

If it just has to be in that realm,

You know,

That fourth genre realm,

Or,

You know,

Associate with that,

Maybe it's a wider thing than just like a group of beings,

Or maybe it's this,

I don't know,

Yeah,

Could you discern whether or not you had lived amongst the them before,

Or my first natural instinct would be that would be against the natural laws,

If you are born reborn in a deeper realm,

I don't you.

Once you're there,

Your energy is so subtle.

So what would pull you back other than a type of magic or something?

Let me put it that way,

Because we're now in that realm where there are different groups within the priesthood classes that have the ability to draw in more subtle entities.

Sure.

And that would be one one thing.

And I just go back again,

To what I think that's commonly said,

And I have no idea myself is that due to past actions,

That one day,

The lifespan will eventually end.

So then depending on one's actions in the Deva realm that time,

And due to who knows,

Beginningless time,

Potential beginningless existence in time,

Due to past actions in that or that are taking longer to ripen in their common then,

Then due to that past common that that's maybe ripening around that time of that death,

Well,

Then depending on all that,

How that plays out,

Well,

Then there'll be some kind of affinity for the next birth,

Whether it be higher,

Lower or the same.

And I don't know how that works.

And I don't know if that's accurate.

Again,

That human interpretation doesn't mean much to me.

I'm sorry,

But this is my that this is where when sometimes when these when people try to when people who have these extraordinary,

Extraordinary experiences of reality,

Are sharing this with people who do not have these extraordinary experiences of reality,

Then the group not that they're less or anything,

But they're trying to put it into a system which they can work with to get that understanding.

And in that process,

Too many words to put in there are too inaccurate and has very little to do with how it is experienced.

And one of the things that I think is super important when we talk about the current enormous amount of text that is around as we saw it,

With any oral teacher that has been in human history,

Including what we understand as Christianity,

Whatnot,

Is that we have the teachers that are teaching it orally,

And then we have all the interpreters that later on produces tons of mind forms to to explain what they don't understand.

There's official commentaries and sub commentaries to all these texts,

Which is a huge amount of more.

That doesn't make it better.

No,

Actually,

It goes against the entire as far as I see the entire teachings of the Buddha.

Well,

Then this is a very hot topic.

And I will just say,

I'm more diplomatic on this.

On one hand,

I've got the thing where people completely dismiss them,

And they won't even look at the commentaries.

And then you've got the other kind of extreme,

Where they say,

Oh,

No,

You can't really understand the text with our level of awareness,

Because we've kind of stooped so low that you have to go to these commentaries of really high level practitioners that are going into that can actually understand this and extrapolate on because the Buddha only taught a certain way to certain people.

And part of the picture is just not there without the commentaries.

And I fall somewhere in between these things.

But let me just rephrase this last one.

I would like to address that so I'm not misunderstood,

Because that's not my standpoint.

I didn't say that.

I know that.

No,

No,

I'm saying these are the two extremes.

You already just said that.

My standpoint is that absolutely,

I as part of also a bachelor degree in theology,

There are the exact same build up.

It's not big difference.

This is where the scholars work.

The commentaries can be super useful.

As long as we remember,

These are commentaries for people who have studied this is their interpretation.

It's we can also say the enormous corpus of text that is around the quote unquote,

Teachings of the Buddha and the suit is the primary suit is that has been deemed these are the primary suit is and all of the corpus of text that's been built on later can also be very helpful.

As long as you remember,

These are interpretation of other like we're doing here.

It is not the truth.

Yes,

It is not the credo of Buddhism.

This is I totally tend to lean towards that,

Because that's somewhere in the middle,

Right?

Because some people dismiss it completely out of hand without even really having read the commentaries.

And I wouldn't say that's entirely the Thai forest school.

But they don't tend to put as much importance on these commentaries and sub commentaries,

Like the Burmese and the Myanmar Burmese kind of schools,

Which really put a lot of emphasis on the commentaries and sub commentaries.

And I'll just say with this,

We don't even have English translations of these yet.

So I'm just like,

Why is this not there?

People chat GPT can project can get this not too long.

So yeah,

I would say before I have any kind of further thing other than what I just said,

We have to at least have an English translation of these things.

But But anyway,

So just going back to this last one before we wrap up.

So maybe I'll rephrase this last one instead of one having a past life memory of whether they were born into the same realm.

I guess maybe it could be rephrases.

Is there any kind of past life memory where you remember meeting either this realm or being in another?

I think that might be a little bit more easily discernible.

Or maybe we can at least look at that question and then say,

Oh yeah,

I remember like five lifetimes ago,

I met this being.

But if we see this in the text too,

Where Sokka,

The king of the gods is actually just a title.

So there's the Buddha was Sokka at some point,

You know,

At some of his,

You know,

Whatever,

It was just a title that is bestowed upon a certain being.

And so yeah,

Who knows?

And then all the Jataka tales,

How,

You know,

Different,

Even my tray,

I think it's in a couple of Jataka tales where he had interactions with the Buddha.

So yeah,

I think that's later additions.

Well,

I know,

I know.

That's,

That's another thing.

But let's just as an example,

Let's just say,

I think,

Yeah,

Like,

As you just agreed that maybe instead of knowing whether you were reborn with them,

That you just met this being at some point in the past.

No,

I would put it differently.

Again,

What's,

What's the purpose of the text is to round this up.

For me,

That text is an instruction.

So that you in your meditation,

Contemplation practice,

When you're beginning to go into the subtle faculties,

Where you understand how your faculties,

When they come in contact with specific realm,

Will also allow you the contact with the beings that are existing there.

And in that you ask yourself,

Since I am now in contact with these beings,

Does this then mean that I have had a previous contact with them?

Which naturally in that line of thought goes in,

Have I had an earlier incarnation there?

And then of course,

You need to contemplate on,

Well,

If I once were a deva,

Why am I now back in human form?

Which would then imply that if that's the case,

Then I must have to some degree done something that pulled me back into Rupa form,

If I had achieved non Rupa form,

Or could it be because I was in a section of the deva realms,

Where I had still had not been saturated yet,

I still had thirst for some of the faculties of the Rupa realms,

I still had a thirst for taste,

I still had a thirst for hearing,

I still had a thirst for tactile sensation.

And that's why this is called a desire realm.

Yes,

Humans.

So in that way,

If I through a lifelong practice had been meditating under a Bodhi tree,

For instance,

Sitting in this garden of non pleasures,

Which were an overabundant garden of pleasures,

And in that one had got myself into that subtle realm of coexisting without perceiving,

Coexisting without hearing,

Coexisting without smelling and tasting,

And just being the word would be bland,

But still be in the light realms where there would be sensations of bliss,

Where there would be sensations of meaning and purpose,

Sorry,

There would be sensations of a unified beingness within this,

But there would be no distinction between a sense of self and my surroundings,

Because that's the deva realms,

You just become what you are in contact with.

So if you are in contact with a tree,

You become a tree.

And these are different types of experiences that are super rich,

But they are they are not leaving an imprint of a sensation,

They're not leaving an imprint of an experience,

They become different types of transition,

Different types of transparency,

This is best way I can put it,

Different states of existence,

That's just like waveforms.

And if there is after been there for a while,

And having all of the bliss that follows with that,

That's the best word as in being in unified,

In unification with all of these different levels of energies that are in the deva realms,

There might have been this little craving this little Yeah,

This is not what I thought if you for instance,

If you have have purpose,

Purposely,

That's what purpose,

Purpose,

Yeah,

Plus Lee,

Perhaps pushed your meditation practice beyond when what you actually read it for,

You had might use jhana techniques that you for some whatever reason,

Were really skilled at,

Perhaps in a past life,

You were a priest,

And you knew how to manipulate energy,

You knew how to get yourself into a bliss state,

You knew how to get yourself into the different forms,

Then the laws of the cycles would naturally at the time of your you're,

You're leaving this physical matter form would naturally draw you to the Europa forms.

But it doesn't mean you belong there.

It doesn't mean that you're ready to be there.

It doesn't mean that you then are aligned with where you are there.

It doesn't mean you're ready for the eternal realms of,

Of non self,

Eternal.

That's a long time.

Yeah,

No,

But it's not.

It's not eternal.

But that's how it feels.

You see,

The sensation of time comes with the sensation of of Adam,

The sensation of self,

Self is the one that determines if I exist or not self is the one that determines if,

If this eye contact with how I value it,

How I perceive it,

How I but once you get into the deva realms,

There is another you don't have self,

You don't you are unified with whatever you're in contact with,

You can see not the gross level of self we experience here.

And that's the whole that it's often said that these they get more subtle and subtle and subtle.

And with that you lose your sense of self,

Hence the teachings of another.

And that's why you become part of your meditation object.

Hence we are practicing the ability to be absorbed so that we don't freak out.

I was going to say that once we get to the places where self no longer has,

Because self is connected to rule performs in the arrow performs,

You don't have self as we understand.

So point being,

For me,

The way that is what there is to investigate,

Once we get in contact with these Aruba rounds,

Investigate,

Why is it that we now are able to come in contact with these Aruba round?

Is it because we have had a rebirth,

Then as we contemplate on have I had a birth prior in an Aruba round?

If that's the case,

Why have I now regressed?

Yes.

Why am I now back?

Does that mean I have a certain thirst?

Does it mean I still have a certain craving that I need to look at?

And that's what we then need to investigate.

Yeah,

That was that was one of the stages.

Because of what deeds and that's what I would interpret that what what deeds have led to a birth in that realm.

And so even though it's pointing actually towards other divine beings in this particular instance,

We're just always that's right.

So it's similar,

Though,

But I mean,

That he's actually discerning divine beings and stuff like that in relation to himself.

But it's the same thing,

Because he did determine this in his own past lives on his night's awakening.

And like,

Yeah,

Like you're saying,

What what that practitioner also saying is that the first questions that pop into his mind are similar to the faculties and the way he interprets the Aruba rounds.

And I think there's something of that text that's missing.

It very well could be.

And so you say that practitioner and that's that's a good point,

Because it's pointed out when I was an unenlightened bodhisattva bent on awakening.

So it doesn't necessarily what I mean,

That could have been who knows how many lifetimes ago,

If that was actually said,

Hartha,

You know,

500 lifetimes ago,

Or 1000s of lifetimes ago,

You know,

We don't know exactly when in his progression journey or whatever,

That what that's being referred to is,

You know,

Part of the context you didn't gave me.

While I was still an unenlightened bodhisattva,

Intent on awakening,

Intent on awakening,

Because that might have indicated that he private pre or previously pre or prior has had used techniques.

Yeah,

Oh,

Yeah.

That where he got himself into a rebirth that he was not really entitled to by doing certain practices.

We don't know.

That is part of it says monks before my awakening when I was not yet fully awakened,

Still only a bodhisattva I perceived only light but did not see forms.

So that doesn't say which no,

No.

Yeah,

So we don't know exactly how long in the past this could have been during a lifetime doesn't stipulate.

But for me,

Again,

This is a roadmap into asking the questions that lead to the practices of contemplation that begins to get you into the understanding of how these realm works,

You need to ask questions to be able to get some kind of answer.

So of course,

We begin with the questions that are in alignment with our current state of being.

And then that's the terminology that's used there.

It doesn't mean that he actually thought they were eating.

He was just for me,

That's just showing metaphorically,

This is what we ask first in this,

This aligns with my meditation experience,

Or you have some kind of experience or realization,

And then it can occurs to me,

Oh,

What happens if I were to do this?

And just like we see he kind of goes progressively,

Oh,

I saw I saw lighter auras.

But then I thought,

Well,

What if I see forms?

And then what if I actually talked to them instead of just being?

And so it occurred,

You know,

As it progresses.

And from that,

We then if we then at this,

Then he mentions the eight stages.

Because if you then understand this is the primary stage,

Then you take the same question,

And then you put it through the eight stages.

And that's why I mean,

I think there's some of the text that's missing.

Because then you do contemplate on the same question through the eight stages,

You ask that question in terms of light,

You ask that question in terms of that,

You ask that question in terms of,

And you go into a more more subtle level of the same question,

Which then allows you to contemplate and experience via that question in the different stages,

Different kind of associations or types of energy that is connected to this.

Well,

That's brilliant,

Because there's so many times in the suttas where I remember,

He just says,

Oh,

And then it occurred to me,

I was like,

Well,

How did that happen?

Well,

That can happen out of the blue.

Well,

Sure.

And I've had that experience,

Too.

But it's also nice to have like a particular method or a particular question that's just progressively applied to different areas.

Hence the practice with the jhanas while you work through the eight stages of the jhanas.

So that's was sure.

You see there,

There is a key point here,

The eight path noble path,

The eight levels of the noble,

What is called the eightfold noble path,

The eight states of jhana,

The eight stages of different forms of energy,

There is a significance with the number eight here.

And we can't overlook that either.

It's not random.

Good point.

Yeah.

And then as nothing is,

Well,

Randy,

This has been fascinating as ever.

And I'm glad I could pick one here to get your expertise.

I was just blown away as I usually am.

And I'm glad this,

This,

We use this sutta as a context to bring in what you have to offer here.

So thanks again.

And yeah,

And we'll go on to a zin text and then the next recording.

A little story.

Thank you.