Non-Confrontational Conversations With David Deighton

David Deighton and I explore the intersection of art and human connection. David shares his journey as an abstract artist who engages strangers in public spaces to discuss sometimes taboo topics. We get into the limitations of free speech zones, the importance of active listening, and the transformative power of art in fostering dialogue while also touching on disillusionment, the role of AI in communication, and the future of human interaction in a digital age.

Transcript

Holness,

Welcome.

This is Josh,

Interskilled,

And today I have David Deaton with me.

What's going on?

Well,

It's a pleasure to be here and explore whatever we're going to explore today.

Well,

Right on.

So who is this guy,

Daniel Deaton?

What kind of work does he do?

Well,

I'm an abstract artist,

And six years ago,

Fueled by the outrage that I see online and greater societal divides and seeing people spending less and less time talking to each other,

I thought,

I got to go do something in person,

Face to face.

And how do you do that?

Right?

I mean,

How do you go talk to strangers,

For example?

Where can that be?

What spaces are those places in our society?

How do we speak to strangers that we may disagree with and disagree about what?

And so I thought,

Well,

Politics is polarizing.

Let's do the hardest one,

Or one of the harder ones,

Let's do that,

See what happens.

And so I embarked on a journey,

A transformative journey to find strangers in a place that's suitable for conversations to happen.

And that brought me from street corners in New York,

Which are a bad idea.

I mean,

It's an okay,

Give it a go,

But it's going to be difficult,

You know,

To airports,

To wherever the encounters would be.

But it brought me to go to national parks in the United States and to free speech areas,

Which are designated areas where you might see somebody,

Jehovah's Witnesses or something like this.

And they invest that space.

I would bring art to that place and bring and take art speech to another level and be outdoors in places where people don't expect it.

And then engage with people walking by with artwork,

Art installations,

Questions,

And just experiment and use that space and see where it takes me and have conversations with strangers on the taboo subject of politics,

Non-confrontationally,

And see what happens.

And it's brought me to amazing,

Amazing places.

Well,

Cool.

What a great idea,

Actually.

I mean,

Speaking of confrontational places,

I mean,

We could just easily stay and complain about this curtain and how horrendously gaudy it is,

Right?

And complain about that.

But you are,

You know,

Do something safe behind a keyboard and complain about something or doing something like this,

Which is kind of ironic because here we are on a podcast online.

But you know,

I think it's really admirable to do this.

When I read this,

My politics tend to be kind of anti-politics.

I look at politics as an emotional con game that's designed to trigger people out and then divide people.

And so then the ruling class can kind of look upon these plebs.

They can't even,

You can't even get along amongst themselves.

So we need to step in here and do some control.

And we kind of have a right now to control people because they can't,

They obviously can't get along amongst themselves,

Look at their behavior,

You know,

They're like little children and things like this,

Which I think is ridiculous because of these divide and conquer tactics they do around politics.

And it's kind of designed to trigger people out emotionally.

And yeah,

It is a taboo topic,

You know.

So I thought that's my,

That's where I come with politics now.

I just try to not do anything whatsoever with them anymore because I've almost written off the entire thing.

So when I saw what you're doing here,

I thought,

Oh wow,

He's actually trying to help in a really unique way.

And I consider my way a unique way and maybe helpful,

But I don't have any real solutions in a sense,

You know,

Other than internal spiritual things and eventually getting to the point where we can all take self-responsibility and help each other voluntarily and not need another group of individuals to control another group of individuals.

But we're so far from that now,

You know.

I can't have this anarchy without rulers now because we're just not at this level on a collective yet.

We're not self-responsible enough.

We're not willing to help each other enough,

I feel,

Yet.

So of course we need some kind of governance yet,

Which govern,

Government,

Govern means to control and meant means mind.

So it's basically a kind of mind control,

Right?

I mean,

We don't have to have people on every street corner with guns making sure people follow rules and do as the leaders say.

It's a soft power.

It's in the mind.

It's kind of a war on consciousness.

So I thought,

Well,

You know,

I normally wouldn't approach this thing like this because it would take a lot of my time and energy and put myself at risk for no real reason because a lot of these problems,

You know,

They seem to have politically created to begin with.

So how is another political solution going to solve a problem that was started with politics to begin with?

And so usually I'm drawn to things that I know that I get kind of maybe uneasy or would write off.

So there's something here I need to look at because I normally don't want to be interested in something like this.

So I deliberately took this on.

But this one has the added benefit of you're actually doing something new and unique and doing it at a kind,

Peaceful way.

And you're putting yourself out there and yeah,

It's taking,

It takes a lot of effort and experimentation,

Things that I like to do too,

What it's called for.

So tell me about,

I mean,

Just let's start off with more of a kind of a click baity thing here.

Like tell me some of the more maybe extreme situations you got into when you did this.

Like what's the kind of the worst and the best that happened from traveling around and doing this,

You know,

And then I want to get into this so-called free speech so,

Which I think is a kind of a joke.

I mean,

Free speech should be anywhere,

Right?

Except for no fire in a theater,

You know,

That's causing harm and danger like that.

Right.

But I mean,

If we're relegated to being able to the first amendment to whatever,

You know,

Little tiny place we're confined to do it.

Yeah,

Of course I have to,

Don't really have any other choice because that's the thing.

But to me,

It's completely,

Absolutely ridiculous to have these things.

We should be able to exercise this whenever we see fit,

You know,

But also have to deal with the consequences potentially too.

So,

All right.

Where are those places?

Where are the places we'd be able to talk to one another outside of our in-group,

Outside of our own echo chambers?

That's right.

It should be everywhere.

But it takes courage and willingness to do it.

But where are they everywhere?

Where would that look like?

So,

I'm driving in my car.

I'm driving in my car.

Anywhere I can open this mouth,

Anywhere I can open this mouth should be a free speech.

So,

I would say the free speech zone would be the place,

Every place that I'd be able to listen actively to the other person.

Yes.

And that's really important too.

So that also comes with listening.

That's right.

So,

The very important point where I can also listen to others' free speech.

Good point.

Right.

So,

For example,

The car,

A lot of Americans are in their car going from one place to the other.

So,

That's definitely an echo chamber of sorts.

So,

That doesn't help.

That's not a good place.

You're at work.

There's a lot of constraints in that space as well.

But that is a place where it could happen.

That's definitely a place where it can be done.

I don't have one of those places.

I'm an independent artist.

I don't work in an office.

But other people have used my practice and used it in offices and that works well.

Okay,

Churches and other type of echo chambers is difficult.

That is one space where everybody kind of,

You know,

There's disagreement on things.

There's a lot to explore.

But I'd rather see the one extreme to the other and to see how that functions.

There's a lot of other places rather than national parks.

It's just that it's about when we speak to others,

It's about the space that we decide to use.

And all our senses are more in tune to our surroundings and we're able maybe to use more of our other senses.

You know,

There's the winds blowing,

You feel the wind upon you.

It might be smells.

So there's a feeling of touch and there's the light and all this.

And if you're on a busy street corner with a lot of traffic going by and you have a place to go to,

The presence of mind is difficult to ask somebody,

Can you please be present with me right now?

All right.

That's asking one thing.

If you're going to ask them political questions,

You got too many questions.

So I chose an area where people can be or naturally more present,

Maybe unconsciously without even knowing so.

So I was confused here.

I was commenting on these designated free speech zones.

Like the first one I saw was in an airport and I'm just like,

Yeah,

I can see the convenience.

There's probably a lot of people giving people hassle.

So I understand the practicality of it.

But for me,

It does something in the mind where,

Okay,

You have free speech,

But condition one,

Condition two.

Right.

I get it.

I get it.

But yeah.

But no,

You're talking about like a conducive space for speech where it actually supports both speaker and listener and connection and more things that are natural.

That's right.

And something outside of an echo chamber.

So yeah,

The two different things we're talking about here,

I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm able to.

I have these conversations on the top of a mountain.

I go to popular hikes,

Go to the top of a mountain and have conversations up there.

Not a problem.

It's when I set up an art installation that might blow away and hurt the public.

I have to like show why,

How that it's secure to put in this space.

And people.

You mean literally,

Right?

You're not talking about like,

Okay,

This is such a political message.

It's going to knock your socks off.

No,

No,

No.

Literally,

The art installation can fly down the Grand Canyon.

How heavy is this thing?

And I have to,

Of course,

You know,

I get it.

It makes sense.

But there are spaces that they want this.

They delegated for free speech to happen.

And apparently that's an offset of the repercussion from our Occupy movements.

And so it's a,

It's a need of control.

And the superintendent that runs the parks decides where these places can be.

And they can be at the back of a parking lot where nobody goes.

So those are very interesting.

And as an artist,

I want to explore those spaces even maybe not for a week,

But for a day,

I'll go to the back of a parking lot and see why,

What,

You know,

What is this?

Just to,

So I'm not talking to anyone,

But at that time,

But I am having that,

That exchange.

And that does help me in the process.

But that's just my,

My personal experience in my,

My journey.

If you want,

Where,

Where it's most fruitful for me is when I'm actually,

You know,

Of course,

Engaging with somebody new and they,

They take up wanting to answer my,

I have three questions I always ask,

Always the same last six years,

Always the same questions.

And I'll share them right now.

I asked people,

How would you describe the political system of the United States of America?

People can change that for India,

Canada,

Whatever,

And they can change politics for religion if they want to.

The point is that at this point,

I'm just listening and using all my senses,

Including the mind and calming it down in order to be there and present for the person.

And of course it didn't start that way because I'd be triggered by often the facts and opinions that people would say,

I let that fall upon me like rain and let it go.

I'm looking for other,

I'm looking for bridges,

Commonalities and what they're saying.

And the second question is,

Describe your feelings or reactions to the current state of U.

S.

Politics.

And once again,

You can change U.

S.

Politics to Canadian religion,

Whatever,

I don't know,

Whatever.

You can change it.

I use,

I use that.

That's my taboo.

That's my subject.

And then people talk some more and,

You know,

I'm leaning in,

We're leaning in,

All of a sudden sounds disappear,

Leaning into one another and they're opening up.

And then the third question is kind of a game where we finish,

I asked them to finish the sentence,

Politics in the United States,

Blank,

And then they keep on going.

And so that happens.

And you know,

The first few years I'd hear all these things that just really make me upset as I can't,

I can't believe you're saying this,

But this is insane.

You're insane.

I'm not insane.

I'm not insane.

Of course I'm insane.

You're not.

Things like this.

And then slowly leaning in,

I was no longer concerned so much for facts and opinion about the politics,

If you want,

Because me,

It's not,

We're all political animals that every one of our actions with intention is a political act.

So rather than the politics of politicians,

Which I don't concern myself with,

Is the act of us as,

As community,

As humanity.

So anyway,

They answer those questions and then usually ask them to find one word that kind of brings it all together.

Yeah.

You know,

One word that you want to put out there and then they give me one word.

And that word usually is the opposite of all the rage that they had before on,

On the questions and how,

Uh,

You know,

Infuriated they were with the state of affairs or whatever.

They usually have a message of like hope and cohesion and,

Uh,

That's what they're aiming for and that synthesizes inside of this one word.

And when we've done that,

You know,

I invite them to do just the same,

The practice we've just done and to do it with someone else.

And I'll share some tools with them of how they can do that.

First of all,

The story of our encounter in person,

Face to face,

Just as our conversation is today,

Speaking to one another.

And we are face to face in a sense of through the screen.

I can see you,

You can see me,

The listeners can hear us virtually.

That's the story that they can take in the tool that they can use as to start their own conversation.

You know,

I was listening to David and Josh and they were talking to one another about this and I want to ask you these questions and because where,

Where does it,

Where does it take us?

That's what's interesting.

It takes us into a space,

First of all,

Where we've,

We're speaking,

We're opening up to someone else,

To a stranger.

We're hearing what they have to say.

We're finding bridges and these bridges are,

I don't look for facts or opinion,

They're just an emotion.

Okay.

You're frustrated about the state of affairs.

Guess what?

I am too.

And not only that,

I'm that libtard.

I'm that,

I'll even be that commie for if you want,

That's a person you were complaining about.

I'm that person.

Guess what?

I'm that person.

I share something with you.

And they resonate with that.

And hundreds of conversations,

I was so surprised.

I don't have any conversations where it went badly because people were curious enough to have this conversation to start with.

So that type,

You know,

That,

That person is willing to have that exchange with me,

But I never had one with a confrontation that ensued because all I was doing was giving them the space to express themselves.

And and also to share that there was this commonality to show them that we can find a bridge even from our polar opposites to show that,

You know,

There's no them or other.

It's us,

You know,

That we were in that moment and they could do the same with others.

And I invite them to speak to relatives,

The ones that they no longer speak to because of their,

They've had political arguments and they no longer want to talk about it.

I say,

Go for it.

Try it out.

You know,

And it's going to be painful.

It's going to,

It's not going to be easy because you're going to be triggered.

Try to let that go and find something you have in common.

Look for an emotional,

Emotional word.

Share that.

Start from there.

Unfortunately,

We have to go all the way down to this foundation and consolidate this.

And that's where our power is.

I think we're extremely powerful in this space as political animals.

The politicians do their things.

The algorithm does it.

Trying to create outrage and divide this and capture our attention.

But as individuals,

We have this power that we can do small acts at any time,

A political action at different times during the day,

During the week,

When the occasion arises,

We can jump in and do this.

And that's where I've come to currently,

And it's still evolving,

But that's where it's been really beautiful in a sense.

There's a lot of beauty.

It's been transformative for me because a lot of my anger is dissipated because I've been bombarded,

Maybe,

That I don't feel the shocks of what I'm hearing.

I'm also finding things,

Redefining some of my own ideas,

Thanks to them.

To us,

Or whatever you want to say.

And moving ahead.

And it resonates.

The weirdest thing is when people,

I think,

Would cry.

It's the first time they have somebody in years that's listened to them on this taboo subject.

And it's sometimes easy to open up to a stranger more than it is to your actual relatives,

Somebody who's close.

And that creates awkward situations in public.

I've had a few people start to cry and then their spouses come over and say,

What did you do to my spouse?

What did you say?

It's like,

No,

No,

No,

I was just listening.

That's great.

That's in the incomprehension of the situation where things happen.

But when we lean in,

We have understanding.

Well,

I applaud you for your courage and kindness,

Too,

Because those are some of my core values,

Courage and kindness.

It takes a lot of courage to do what you did.

And I would say,

If I had to guess,

One of the things that helped with anger is that kindness.

Because that is the classic antidote to anger and ill will,

Is love and kindness.

And if I have any kind of politics,

It's that,

Ideally,

For the most part.

But now I fall short of it all the time.

That's where my heart really feels like it's being useful and nourished and uplifted.

Sometimes that kindness means,

OK,

May you,

Not you,

But in the royal you,

Come to learn the errors of your ways and change for your own well-being and for that of others.

Sometimes that's the kindness that's called for,

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's kind of the more practical kindness instead of just,

You know,

Normally think of in Buddhist circles as loving kindness,

You know,

Well-wishing and,

You know,

Upigupi,

Which is great and,

You know,

Very good for goodwill.

But sometimes it needs to be more practical like that.

Yeah.

What's upigupi?

Upigupi,

To me,

You know,

Before I got in touch with my heart,

There's this one teacher online that he taught saying these I love you's to your own heart.

And it just didn't,

From where I was at at the time,

It didn't,

It felt too saccharine or sugary.

It didn't feel honest and real.

So but even that acknowledgement of that is kind and loving,

Right?

To be honest with myself,

OK,

This just doesn't feel like,

It doesn't,

I don't like the way this feels right now.

But that honesty,

But I could see the value into it where I was aspiring towards it.

But right now where I was at,

It just didn't feel the way that,

You know,

How can I put it?

Yeah.

Everybody else seemed to be into it and getting benefit.

And at the time,

You know,

It just didn't feel right.

But I could also recognize that,

OK,

I can see if I keep at this,

That it will lead to that and do that.

So instead of lying to myself,

You know,

Or pretending that wasn't the way it is,

Then that honesty is an act in itself of that self-love and self-kindness.

Yeah.

I just want to say,

I went through upigupi too.

I went through upigupi as well.

Yeah.

Is that a word?

Is that an English word?

No,

I think I just made that up,

But it might actually be.

We need to look at the dictionary.

It should be.

It should be.

It's kind of an onomatopoeia,

Isn't it?

Like it sounds almost like a kind of the effect we're after here,

Yeah.

So let me just,

Let me jump in and answer these questions.

I want to get to your,

Well,

The other comment,

Like what I'm triggered by,

To me,

I tell people I like to be triggered because then that shows me what I need to work on,

You know?

It's whatever I have left to work on.

You know,

If I'm triggered by something,

It's,

You know,

It's not necessarily the person just as if I say something,

I'm a hundred percent responsible for my intent behind saying it,

But I can't control how the other person says it.

I may want them to take it another way,

But I can't reach in there and say,

Hey,

No,

No,

No.

You can't react like that.

You can't take it that way.

That's not what I meant.

But I am still partially responsible because if I wrote off all responsibility for what I said,

Then that doesn't work either.

Right?

So that's,

That's,

Um,

I had a teacher that said that it really resonated a lot because we got into these arguments of,

Oh,

The impact is more important than the intent,

Right?

No,

No,

It doesn't work like that.

It's not this kind of all absolutes.

To me,

It's about responsibility,

You know,

Responsible,

Taking responsibility for my intent and then the outcome that will feed back into my intent and okay,

Is it them or is it me?

Is it us?

You know,

How do I need to change in order to,

To have a better outcome for me and them,

But also realizing that I can't control how people respond entirely.

Right?

So let me,

Let me jump in here and answer your questions.

They'll be fairly brief,

But I think they're really good questions.

The America has,

What is it?

The politics of,

Oh,

You want to answer the questions you want?

Yeah.

Just really briefly and see,

So I know that,

Yeah.

And through your,

And,

And through your,

Uh,

Your own filters,

That that would be very good.

Yes.

How would you describe the political system of the United States of America?

Well,

It's supposed to be a democratic Republic from what I understand,

A mix of these.

So how would you,

How would you describe that?

And I would say we're,

We've come,

It's not on track to be that it's not really that anymore.

And even just one brief aside,

It's almost like we need a constitutional convention to maybe redo a lot of things.

However,

I don't advocate that either because we're in a,

Such a state,

I think of low consciousness that we would probably make it worse.

We would probably come up with a constitution right now that's worse than it actually is.

So yeah.

So,

So I don't,

I mean,

Yeah,

Hopefully we can get to a point where we could do that and improve on it.

But for now,

I think we're so far from that it would,

It would be kind of a disaster with all the kind of corruption to go in there and rewrite it or something,

Have a constitutional convention.

Okay.

The next one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Describe your feelings or reactions to the current state of U.

S.

Politics.

Complete and utter disillusionment that I just want to put it on a shelf and I do put it on a shelf for now and don't get entangled and involved with it for the most part.

Yeah.

And the last one's like this game,

Right,

Where you have to finish the sentence.

Sure.

So politics in the United States.

Is triggering divisive?

Is it really worth my time?

What are the solutions?

And I've kind of don't want to deal with it.

You know,

I think that yes,

It's used for divide and conquer tactics for the most part.

Yeah.

And to control people.

Oh yeah.

And then this word,

Right,

There's this word we,

You know,

Find one word that you want to put out there.

Like,

That's the hardest one,

Right?

It's hard.

And sometimes it's like the first one that comes through.

And I can't,

I can't.

It's two that keep coming up.

Self-responsible care or care with self-responsibility.

So the best of the left and the right,

You know,

Because that's a dichotomy.

We're told we have to choose one or the other.

There's so many other choices,

You know,

We don't have to be locked into a false dichotomy.

So to me,

All the caring of all the good things on the left and the self-responsibility,

You know,

From maybe the all,

Anything and all things good from the right,

If there is any of the salgible from either side these days.

So both a caring,

Open heart and self-responsibility.

So I don't know how to fuse that into one word,

But you could,

I could just say middle.

But you had care,

You had,

You had care.

So those things surround that.

You know,

It's interesting.

Well,

So there's a lot of words that of course I have in common and also your,

Your discourse.

I agree with several of the things in there.

So we're not at a polar opposites,

But it is good to acknowledge the areas where we,

We do have commonality.

I'm less disillusioned than I used to be.

Let's throw that in through this,

Through,

Through this artistic practice of mine.

But there is one thing I do with that final word.

I like to try it with you,

You know,

In a different circumstance,

I get these words and then I'll have,

And I'll ask other people.

I have these words that other people gave me after asking these three non-confrontational political questions.

And they're already baffled,

Like what's that mean?

But I'll say,

You know,

When we listen in and we're,

We're doing active listening,

We should use all our senses.

And I'm having a really hard time today with taste.

So if the word was care,

Right,

Let's say it was care.

What does care taste like?

Oh,

That's maybe comfort food,

The most healthy,

Nutritious comfort food.

So I don't know,

Pick,

Pick your poison,

Not your poison,

Pick your,

Your care food there.

I don't know.

That's a really good,

Great question.

I never really engaged my senses on that level.

So I don't know if I have to be more specific,

But I would just give that as an instruction set maybe for choosing the taste.

Yeah.

There's no,

There's no.

Nourishing,

Let's just say it tastes nourishing.

Nourishing,

Nourishing.

It's not as sweet or salty or earthy or,

You know.

It's no correct answer.

It's yours.

You know,

It's the process,

Right?

I think what happens is that we,

We,

It creates new questions.

I'm just happy with ask a question and the other person's got more questions.

Of course,

Yeah.

Very good.

There's no absolute answers.

And that also brings us into another place when we start thinking of taste and smell those things that we don't use as much as maybe we used to centuries ago.

And just to bring in a word and kind of put the two together and see how those things might happen and it gets people thinking about it differently.

And I also found that through that I use it when I get triggered about something,

I wonder,

Oh,

What would that taste like?

You know,

Just in my mind at the time,

It like takes it down.

First of all,

I'm not reacting to it.

I'm like wondering what that was.

And I'm visualizing this additionally,

I don't know,

Sour grapes or something like this,

You know,

But then,

You know,

It just,

It's a way it just,

It's a,

It's a quick way to,

To release that tension as well to,

To bring it,

Bring a,

An association or parallel and release it.

And those are some of the funnest days I do is when I ask people what these words taste like.

And they're like,

Well,

And some words are not polite words,

You know,

People give me their words,

You know,

And it's like,

Well,

What does that taste like?

Cause I do them one after the other.

I don't skip a word,

Whatever the words were given to me,

I asked the next word I got.

So I'm really sorry.

You're the one that's going to have to do with this work.

And,

You know,

They usually go for it.

And it comes up with some interesting responses.

It's just,

We all find different ways to different,

You know,

Different practices that,

That,

That fit for where we are at a certain time.

And that's where,

That's part of my process too,

In a world that I,

You know,

I used to be more disillusioned by the outcomes of all this.

What I do have is outside before I go to my car and I drive off,

I have a few rocks that I bow to.

And I,

And I remind myself of,

Of impermanence,

Dukkha,

So Anitha Dukkha,

Anika Dukkha Anitha.

And so I,

So I remind myself to calm my mind and impermanence and suffering and non-self before I drive off,

Just to bring it down.

And I do the same before I have a conversation with someone to try to be as present as possible in the moment.

And as an artist,

I want,

I want things to be almost quick and immediate,

Right?

There's this artistic practice that I,

That I invite other people to use.

You know,

It's,

It's also,

I read a ton of literature on the subject and it's like,

You need a college course to do this stuff.

This is ridiculous.

We're never getting anywhere if we got to get that deep into it,

You know,

And you got to read this and do that and check your sources and blah,

Blah,

Blah,

And all this.

Whoa,

We need something far more simple that gets straight to the point.

And,

And the one I'm experimenting with that I find really working out is to engage with the quotation,

Unquotation mark,

You know,

Other and to listen in.

And it's not just listen to that person is to listen to yourself and find commonality.

And that,

Wow.

I mean,

For me,

It's been,

Like I said earlier,

Transformational,

Really changed my entire outlook of all things.

Things are a lot quieter in my mind.

My hikes,

My hikes through the wilderness are more imbued with the beauty of what I'm rather than ruminations.

A lot of ruminations been left behind.

And that,

That,

That space right there.

That's a good space to be in.

It's got pain for sure.

But that's good.

I'll take the sufferings part of it all.

It comes,

It comes along with it,

Right?

Until we're totally free from that.

So what I meant by disillusionment,

It's not that,

Okay,

I'm going to be bummed out by politics or it's all hopeless and stuff like that.

That's not necessarily,

I guess I meant it more on a deep kind of spiritual level of that.

No matter what we see in the world or experience in the world is not going to provide lasting satisfaction.

So it's included in that too,

You know?

So yeah,

I don't think the answers are necessarily in politics.

I don't think they're necessarily outside politics.

It's just another sphere of existence where,

Yeah,

But it's kind of a paradox too,

Because I see the value in what you're doing here and actively engaging.

And I love this notion of putting,

We don't normally think of using our sniffer in our mouth when we're engaging with politics,

Right?

So it's this great disruptor and it brings us back to our senses because it's an immediate,

You're kind of forced into something,

You know,

Association you don't normally make.

Because usually when we're having certain types of really,

Certain types of food,

It's a completely different experience,

I think,

Than what we're normally related to politics.

So,

But it can be a great relational aspect and something we normally wouldn't think of something outside the box,

Something that brings more consciousness and awareness and noticing and observation to just a certain area of life that we normally wouldn't do because of your kind of ingenuity and creativity around experience like this.

So it's kind of a great gift you're bringing beyond the narrow confines of how we've been corralled into viewing and responding to certain things.

So it's a great disruptor,

But a skillful one.

So holding kind of an ultimate disillusionment,

Meaning that,

Yeah,

That there's,

I guess,

There's more to what we're led to believe there is.

And what we think of the world is not necessarily the way it is right off the bat.

And what's really going to end stress ultimately in the world,

You know?

But we have to kind of see and know it,

Too,

In order to end it fully.

So balancing these two things,

I think it's a really great notion which you came up with here.

Trying to think,

There's something else in there you said,

Too.

But I'm blanking right now,

But it may come back to me.

You know,

I was thinking of when you were talking of illusion,

Disillusionment,

I also see,

You know,

Illusion like Mara,

You know,

All the illusions that are before us.

Certainly in my artistic exploration,

The great disruptor in the sense of not being able to find commonalities for the other and greater divide is the more time we spend on our digital devices,

How we use AI in the future,

Right?

Being conscious of these things,

There's a lot,

They're great tools.

But,

You know,

Will the tools take over our mental process and how we function with one another?

You know,

It looks like we're not going in the direction of speaking to one another anymore directly.

So we're going to have to make the painful moves.

And some of us,

The kids are having a harder and harder time.

I also teach in the public schools on communicating to one another directly on a more emotional level than the memes and the short videos that they're getting.

I mean,

They're conversing,

They're having dialogue,

But there's a few elements that are missing.

And what is that going to look like in the future?

Will they be able to exit their echo chambers and explore other echo chambers?

Or are they all going to calcify within their in-groups?

And that preoccupies me.

Is that what's missing?

What else did you,

You said something's missing.

Is that primarily what's missing or what else?

What is missing that you see?

Well,

There's,

Of course,

You know,

In the communication with others and finding the depth in our relationships.

There's also,

Of course,

Having the moment to be able to have presence and calmness in order to quiet the mind,

Especially when we are constantly bombarded with messaging over and over and over on so many emotional levels and only on two of the senses.

I mean,

It's auditory and visual.

We're missing on the other things.

We have no concept of the mind for that's not really taught in the schools.

I mean,

There are classes in mindfulness.

I do admire that.

It's got to be hard to do that when,

On the other hand,

You say,

Okay,

We're finished now and I go back to your computers and you can go do this through their games and bing,

Bing,

Bing,

And it does all this stuff.

You know,

The modeling we're doing,

We have,

That's where our power lies.

Okay,

So I do see those as other forces to be reckoned with that are political powers that are manipulating us as people in order to go in certain directions.

And unfortunately,

I think it's untested and we don't know really what the outcome is going to be.

But there's one thing we do,

Like you were mentioning earlier,

Is our own personal reaction to things.

And reaction,

I'm thinking of action and non-action,

How we relate taking the step to speak to other people,

To engage with them when the opportunity arises.

And I would say that's our greatest political effect,

Political action.

So I see us all as political animals.

Yeah,

Let's get involved.

You're not going to go vote.

You're not going to go do this and you're not going to join.

One thing you can do that's super powerful is that.

Yeah,

It's great.

And I've said this several times,

But the most profound,

I've heard somebody say this,

The most profound thing we'll ever do is speak with another human being.

And I kind of wrote it off,

You know,

Oh,

No,

That can't be the case.

But like,

As I see more and more how language and speech is so powerful and how I misuse that and abuse that in the past and how I don't actually give it the credence that it does,

That it can be really powerful.

And that's we just look at these free speech zones.

Obviously,

It's a threat to somebody if they're relegating it to such in some areas to such obscure little instances where most people won't even bother.

Right.

So obviously,

To me,

That just OK,

This is a powerful thing if they're doing that to it.

It used to be like,

I don't know,

You know,

It was just kind of,

Oh,

You know,

Talk,

Whatever,

You know,

There's no.

Of course,

You might get in a fight or something if you say something.

But to do to politicize it so much,

You know,

Outside of the normal means of like papers and stuff like that.

But I also want you to say,

What do you mean by politics anyway?

So that's outside of what we're normally conditioned to see as politics.

There's politicians,

There's the left and the right in America.

Right.

And and,

You know,

There maybe there's lobbies and there's a court and there's an administrator,

You know,

Now being maybe more of a dictatorial branch.

But that's neither here or there right now.

But so,

Yeah.

Like,

What do you mean like human politics outside of what we're normally conditioned to do?

And then I want you to go.

So I so I don't forget these things.

Sorry,

It's too much here,

Maybe.

But I'll try to remember.

Right.

I'll help you remember.

But to come back to I mean,

AI,

This is a huge thing right now,

You know.

And yeah,

Where is our how do you see this in the solutions?

Because,

Yeah,

I do see it where people are getting dependent,

Especially if people get so dependent.

They can't make choices for themselves.

I already find myself consulting it for a lot of choices now,

You know,

And if it conditions over generations,

I can imagine how people won't even be able to make their own decisions,

Basically,

On some things.

Right.

They'll have to consult it for everything.

And then we have to it can help like a tool,

But we can't have it.

I don't feel take over.

We still need like natural human consciousness and beingness to have a place,

You know.

Otherwise,

We're just turned into machines.

I mean,

That if you extrapolate this out way far in the future,

I can imagine this is where it leads to androids and cyborgs,

You know.

So in the transhumanists that want to merge with machine,

It's just so crazy to me like,

Oh,

That's a threat.

So let's merge with it.

Wait,

What?

You know,

It doesn't make any sense to me.

So OK,

So we've got we've got a political definition and then the AI thing.

Yeah,

I thought there was one other thing I mentioned,

But where does it take us?

Yeah.

So politics,

I just see it as polis,

The people.

Right.

So it's the forum of us all.

And so and all the actions,

If we either if we're in the forum or not,

That also has a political effect.

If we don't vote,

That is also a political action.

When we go out and vote,

It certainly has an effect.

And also by all the multitude of small things that we can do,

Right.

If we decide to take a bicycle over a car,

If we hit a rock and do this and all those things have there's always action reaction.

But I'm going to share something that just came to me last night and I lost a little bit of sleep over it.

Is after having this about AI,

I was having an interview interview like we're having now,

Except we weren't having a conversation.

I only understood after the interview that.

The host was using an AI,

I don't know which program they were using to have a transcript of everything that I mean,

As an aid,

I get that.

But the all the questions that they were asking were AI generated and they were they were deep and bland.

I'll tell you how deep and bland and they were right on the dot.

And as soon as the next question came,

It wasn't from a list of questions.

It was just really on subject of where it would go next.

Right.

And all the questions.

And so it dawned on me that the host was not actually listening,

Didn't know anything about my art project,

Anything about who I was,

You know,

Who am I was not interested and it was trying to generate content.

So really feeding into the machine and using me to feed his machine.

And then I thought back and I went back because I'm still kind of new at this.

My third week going on podcasts and I went back to the list and I've done 14 or 16 of them,

But four or five of them.

I'm pretty sure also use that same thing.

Like your questions are real,

But their questions were generated.

So where does that take us in the future?

That's where I want.

That's where I'm going.

Like that outcome is,

Well,

That's a cyborg.

Yeah,

That's where we're going.

So you're saying this was created in real time,

Like AI was generating these based on your response.

It was feeding in that.

And then it would choose from,

Okay,

Which algorithm,

The algorithm is saying,

Okay,

This is the most,

The question that's going to get the most engagement,

The most SEO value,

The most,

You know,

SEO juice or rise to the algorithms or even accomplish some kind of agenda that they want to do,

You know,

Breadcrumb you into feeding into their agenda to make it even worse agenda.

Well,

Right.

That's right.

Yeah,

Exactly.

Who's this?

They right.

But yeah,

So right.

And then even,

Even further troubling is deep fakes.

So once they have enough material on anyone,

You can just make someone appear to say something they would never say.

Basically,

You know,

They've already showed this on the BBC years ago,

Right?

That they reconstructed like a president saying something he didn't even say.

So that's,

That's really concerning if it gets in the,

In the wrong hands of that.

And then sometimes it's so subtle that maybe they only throw one little fake line in there,

You know,

And kind of breadcrumb just right.

And then over gradually over time,

You think of huge podcast hosts or something like that.

And who's behind this and what's real and all this.

It's,

It's fascinating mind F,

But I didn't know that this is a real time thing right now.

Yeah.

So I,

So I had to look it up.

And of course,

Where did I look it up?

I looked it up online and there was such a thing.

And yes,

Where does that take us in the future?

And of course,

There's,

There's going to be AI podcasts coming up specifically for the individual artists.

You can feed it into this one thing and it will have these two AIs.

You tell it a topic and they'll start having conversations with itself about this topic.

I forget the thing that it's called.

There's one podcast company that is flooding the podcast directories with AI produced podcast.

It's just,

It's completely no humans and the choices we have now.

Yeah.

What are we going to do?

What are we going to do?

Right.

And the only thing I can think of is at the base,

At the,

Like the bottom where it goes so far at the bottom that can have these conversations,

Less we're listening and finding one thing we have in common.

And it's got to be face to face because soon we're,

Yeah,

Soon we're not going to be able to do even what we're doing today.

You know,

You and I with your listeners and sharing that.

So we're going to be ended up one-on-one and then it's the force of numbers.

And that doesn't look good.

No.

Why do you think we won't be able to do this in the future?

Well,

There'll always be the,

Because there'll be mistrust,

Right?

Is it real or is it not?

You know,

Right.

We won't know very much,

Just as much as I was fooled yesterday and thought this.

Well,

You know,

I kept on complimenting the host and I did with the other hosts.

Like you've got the best questions.

These are amazing.

You've really researched the subject a lot.

You've spent a lot of time.

I really admire that wrote a review,

Five-star great question.

Best questions.

But then I lost the humanity.

I thought it's like,

Oh,

How,

How come this person,

This is like such an academic on the subject.

And not only that,

Not only that,

These conversations here,

Of course,

AI is scraping them and learning from them to even improve their models.

I mean,

It will get even more far out.

If we go into metaphysics,

You know,

You have some metaphysical people are saying that people's,

I mean,

This is crazy kind of more paranoid stuff,

But who knows,

Right?

I mean,

I don't know.

I'm just repeating information.

This is not my own personal view that AI can be remote controlling people.

There's this thing called remote neural monitoring by a next CIA guy called Dr.

Robert Duncan.

Well,

You have to take everything CIA says with a grain of salt because you know,

They basically lie for a living.

So who knows if it's real or not?

But basically monitoring brainwaves from,

From remotely,

You know,

It's just,

It's just so bizarre what we live in.

Like you said,

Yeah,

The kind of having face to face reaction,

Interaction,

And then,

You know,

Discernment,

Discernment,

Discernment,

And being open because it's so devastating to learn that we've been lied to,

Deceived.

And that's one of the other reasons I withdraw from politics because there's just so much lying.

There's so much money that's anonymous buying,

Uh,

Buying politicians basically.

And you know,

Art,

You said our vote has an effect and yeah,

Sometimes I would say locally,

Uh,

Local elections,

But yeah,

Cause they,

They tell you in,

In political,

Um,

In political science and in university,

I remember it's that your vote,

Unless your vote's a tiebreaker,

It doesn't matter,

Which technically yes,

But there's other things and causes and conditions involved in that,

You know,

And then the,

The presidential election is by electoral college,

Not popular vote too.

So it's kind of like this release valve.

I see that,

Um,

If you certain institutions,

They've already,

They,

They come to the people and to like a forum as almost window dressing because they've made up their mind and maybe not,

Maybe this is not the case,

But it seems like it could be if it's not in some situations,

They've already made their decisions on what they're going to do,

But they don't tell you that.

And they present it like,

Oh,

Your voice is going to make a difference.

It's going to have a,

It's going to have a say,

You can air your concerns here and we'll listen to you.

But all the while saying,

No,

We've already made up our mind.

This is how we're rolling it out.

So this is like a pressure relief valve for people,

Um,

You know,

That,

Okay,

At least I'm letting off some steam.

I feel like I'm being heard here,

But actually,

You know,

The,

The money and power behind it is,

Is going to do what it does anyway.

So,

I mean,

I'd not to get so negative around this and I'm not saying that's always the case.

And sometimes we can say something that will really penetrate and change and go deep either into the system or like you said,

The people,

This is supposed to be by the people,

For the people,

You know,

Of the people or whatever.

So all it takes is for people to kind of come together and,

And have a,

Um,

I guess a consensus or,

You know,

Some kind of choice and then people in power are going to have to pay attention to that,

You know?

Mm-hmm.

So there's all kinds of different tactics to do otherwise,

But there's something very powerful in our voice and in our hearts and our minds too.

So that leads me to the question I want to ask too is,

Uh,

Your intention behind all this,

You,

You said a little bit of it,

But was there some kind of outcome you were hoping for or some kind of reason or you just wanted to find out what happened?

I mean,

You kind of talked about the impetus towards getting you to do this,

But was there other intentions involved in,

In this project you took?

Well,

Uh,

You know,

At first I just go with the flow,

But,

Uh,

Now looking back and having all these conversations and exchanges and spending time on the subject,

I,

I realized that there's such a thing as a cognitive bias called the just world fallacy for those that believe that there can be a just world.

And I am definitely a victim of that,

But I don't see myself as a victim.

Justice is the opinion of whoever's in charge.

I like that somebody said that a long time ago.

Justice is basically the political or the opinion of whoever's in charge.

That's what it is.

A just world and compassion for our natural world and for,

For our communities.

That,

That's where I'm going.

Yes,

Your word of care.

Yes.

All of that.

That's,

That's,

That's what drives me.

And of course,

Every time I see it,

It just confirms my bias.

So,

But nonetheless,

Not only does it,

Does it,

It's when I see it in other people and how they take it up as well.

And they take my,

The encounter that we have as the pretext and excuse the invitation to go out and do the same.

And that just blew my mind because I've always been like,

You gotta do some big messaging and art that does this and in your face and talk to as many people as possible.

No,

This is the one it's,

It's where we have the greatest control,

Right?

And it has so much more power.

And the research says it does too.

The interpersonal contact,

The conversations,

The storytelling between two people is much greater than hundreds,

If not thousands of memes and whatever,

You know,

That you get online,

It's a lot better.

And we can do this.

So that's how powerful we are.

And why not exercise it?

If there's a,

They,

They don't want us to do it.

So that's exactly what we need to do.

It's beautifully put.

I mean,

We look at some of the biggest name podcasts and a lot of times they're just one on one conversations,

You know,

It can be really,

Really powerful,

Obviously.

That's,

That's right.

Even if people don't follow through and do that,

It's just like you had with me with put a taste to this word.

You know,

In the political context,

It's just,

Oh,

Wait a second.

I never,

It never occurred to me that way.

And then all these doors kind of start opening up or it stops my habitual patterning for just a second.

And I see something,

Oh,

There's another choice here.

There's a disruption where,

Okay,

This could be skillful.

Like I can't figure this out immediately.

So maybe I need to contemplate what's going on here.

No,

Just like going to talk.

Maybe I would never have enough courage to go do what you did,

But wow,

That's admiring and I can like,

What is it?

Vicariously live through you or consider something vicariously.

And just as we know,

Like watching things on TV sometimes will have an effect,

Right?

Like,

Like sports,

Right?

If you're watching sports,

It can,

It can help one's performance,

Even if you're not actually going and doing that right.

Or something like that.

So I think I've heard these things,

Right?

Like the mere neurons or something like,

Yeah.

So just even considering it,

I think is significant as well.

Even if one is not going to go follow through and do the exact same thing you did,

It could lead to some inspiration for something else.

And then like the pizza effect,

Maybe you find out somebody got inspired by you to go do something and then you learn about what they do.

And then it informs your,

Your process.

And then you go and then just keeps compounding like that.

So I think this is a really great thing you're doing here.

I like artists because,

You know,

This notion of kind of poetic license and in a way it gives us good excuses sometimes to try something outside the box that most people would think,

Oh,

That's just a weird artist that,

You know,

Big deal.

So it gives us kind of an allowance or to get away with certain things under a guise.

But I feel sometimes when I do things like,

It's like some kind of infiltration or some kind of secret mission or something.

And,

You know,

That's my cover.

I don't know what,

It's just great that we can have people in today's society that do things out of the ordinary like this that are actually admirable and skillful.

So that I applaud and admire.

So,

Oh,

Wow.

A lot of big words there.

My ego is going fireworks.

Yeah.

I've got to be careful about that.

Pump in my spiritual ego.

Right.

So,

Yeah,

Good point.

Bring me back down the earth here.

So,

All right,

David,

I think this has been,

This is a good place to start wrapping up.

I really appreciate your help and time here.

Thank you so much.

Thanks.

Thanks you so much for having me.

It's having me on and having this conversation.

Sure.

I've learned some new things and it's always great to share.

Yeah,

I'm definitely going to be at some national parks.

I'm planning in the spring to go to Mount Rushmore in the United States.

Never been there.

That should be good.

And yeah,

There's always new things coming up.

All right,

David,

I appreciate this again.

Bye everybody.

Thank you.