Materiality & Mentality | 7/27/21 AUA With Denny & Beth Upton

Denny and I chat with meditation teacher Beth Upton about the Dependent Origination link Nāmarūpa, or Materiality and Mentality, which, according to Wikipedia, is “used in Buddhism to refer to the constituents of a living being: nāma is typically considered to refer to the mental component of the person, while rūpa refers to the physical.” Also: consciousness, perception, science, and spirituality, mind, physicality, Samadhi, Vipassanā, Abhidhamma, 4 elements, depth, teaching, etc.

Transcript

Good morning,

Good afternoon,

Good evening everyone.

Welcome to another episode of AUA.

Ask us anything.

As you can see,

There's something missing yet.

We're supposed to have a very special guest today,

And she has confirmed that she will be here,

But she's obviously a very,

Very busy person.

So we thought that maybe we'll go live first and then wait for her.

In the meantime,

The instigator to all this is,

Of course,

Josh,

Who's sitting on my right or my left.

I don't know which one.

Josh,

Why don't you kind of give some background information on Beth and also on how you guys met and how we managed to invite her?

Sure.

I've worked with Beth for a little bit.

I was actually a brief student of hers.

So I found her by reading this book,

Practicing the Jhanas.

So it's like these deep absorption states of samatha concentration meditation.

And it was written by two Westerners who were the only,

Or the first Westerners to go through Paak Saidaon's training on the Jhanas.

And I was going through some of the storming material,

And I've never seen visual pictures,

Representations of these teachers,

So I Googled Paak Saidaon.

And Beth's channel came up.

So Beth actually had a really brief interview with Paak Saidaon,

And I was really impressed by her questions.

So then I watched a couple other videos by her.

And then I sent her an email,

And I just really didn't think anything of it.

Didn't get a response from her right away.

But then,

I'm trying to remember exactly how,

But I might have got on a mailing list.

I probably signed up for her mailing list.

And then I got an email,

And so I decided to do a retreat with her online.

And hi,

Beth.

Good morning,

Good morning,

Good afternoon.

Not sure it's afternoon.

Well,

It's got sunlight behind you,

So this has got to be during the daytime.

Yeah,

It's 6 p.

M.

Here.

I'm not at all familiar with this platform.

Well,

There's not much to it.

First of all,

Let me introduce myself.

My name is Danny Nghi.

I'm a friend of Josh and also a Dumber brother.

We study under the same master.

I very,

Very much look forward to this.

So we had to go live because there are students waiting,

And we didn't want him to just hang.

So welcome.

So such a pleasure to have you on.

Yeah,

Thank you for having me.

Yeah,

You're coming through clear,

And everything sounds good.

The quality looks good.

Just,

We should have done this ahead of the show.

There's the question of whether our audio level between Josh and I are more or less the same,

Because sometimes he comes in kind of,

He's a kind of loud person anyway,

So.

Sounds okay?

I forgive you for that,

Danny.

To me,

It all sounds fine.

Yeah,

I just need to let you know that I have another call in just under 90 minutes.

So at 7.

30 p.

M.

My time.

Oh,

Okay,

So we have less than 20 minutes.

So I'm gonna just.

No,

No,

An hour and 20.

Oh,

Okay.

Well,

We could get our.

But I will hold Danny to that hard test.

Certificate by then.

But in any case,

Whether it's hour and a half or just half an hour,

It doesn't seem like there's enough time for us to learn from you.

Josh had told me about you and quite a bit about you for a while,

But only until I knew that you were coming on the show that I start to listen to some of your audio.

The one that really strikes me,

And I really wanna get to this one,

Is when you were introducing yourself and when you're talking about the 10 years that you spent as a monastic,

As a Buddhist nun,

And then when you finally decide to give up the rope,

So to speak,

And become a house lover again,

And you had some objectives in mind.

And one of the ones that I find so profound was when you said that you would like to quote,

Now I'm gonna quote you,

Revolutionize modern science.

Oh,

Yeah.

And look forward to having a conversation with modern scientists about material reality versus mentality.

Now,

I'm not a scientist.

I'm not trained as a scientist,

But I'm an engineer,

And I do have some appreciation for modern science.

So I thought I'd just give you this platform and let you elaborate on what you have in mind.

And Josh and I would just shut up.

If he doesn't,

I'll snap his back,

His back of his head.

Yeah,

So it's very broad.

I think what science has to learn from the Dharma is very,

There's really a lot there.

With what science can learn from Dharma,

But the few things I would want to focus on,

I think,

Are the causal relationships between materiality and mentality.

So it's something that science doesn't really understand.

They tend to try and conceive of the mind as a material thing.

So the mind as the brain is probably the most common example.

There might be some variations on that.

And they find it difficult,

In my conversation with scientists so far,

To conceive of the mind as something with no material characteristics.

And one of the reasons for that is that if the mind has no material characteristics,

If it has no place,

No size,

No shape,

No color,

No hardness,

Then what possible causal relation could it have with a physical thing like the body?

And we observe that the mind,

If there is one,

Does have a causal relationship with the body.

For example,

When we want to walk forwards,

We walk forwards.

Or when we're feeling sad,

Our body is affected.

And so the question then arises,

Okay,

Well,

If the mind is a non-physical thing,

What are its causal relationships to materiality?

And that's something that the Dharma explains very well.

It's probably a bit complex for me to go into those different types of causality now.

But that's sort of the point that I want to discuss with science,

How,

For example,

The mind can create materiality,

How materiality is in a supporting relationship with mind,

Even though mind has no physical characteristics.

Does that answer the question?

Yeah,

No,

Beth,

I was just wondering,

Because many of the audience,

And especially the ones that are practicing with Josh and I on Saturdays,

We don't always come from the spiritual background.

We've done to focus on,

If I use the word,

Would be materiality,

Our body,

Wanting us to get healthy and fitness and all that.

And so I wonder if you could speak to that kind of audience and kind of,

Not defining materiality versus mentality,

But more like for a normal layperson,

When we talk about,

I think you used the word that,

Even when we talk about mind,

We're really talking about the material aspect of the mind,

The brain,

Right?

So how could we start to appreciate?

The brain isn't the material aspect of the mind.

The mind is the mind and the brain is the brain.

So I wonder if you could just speak to that.

What exactly do you mean as a layperson?

How do we get to understand that?

I'm not really clear on what the question is.

Are you asking me what the mind is?

Josh,

Maybe you can help me out.

What did I mean?

So,

It seems like where Denny's coming from,

This academic background,

And a lot of it is,

It really is like they have to have material proof of everything,

Right?

And so,

Yeah,

The mind,

There is no,

You can't,

Right?

You can't point out and say,

Oh,

This is the mind,

Material.

But however,

There is like a,

Nama and Rupa,

Right?

In a human,

They can't be separated for indefinite periods of time,

Right?

They're linked together,

Right?

Materiality,

Mentality,

You can't really have them separated for a long extended period of time.

And the question that came to me this morning recently in meditation is how and why,

I mean,

Maybe this is too deep and complex because we can get back to the more lay understanding,

But how and why are linked together are inseparable?

Materiality,

Mentality.

Yeah,

So it sounds like the two of you have just asked me very different questions.

Oh,

Yes.

But I'm going to,

Or at least I experienced Josh's questions being completely different from Denny's question,

But I'm going to attempt to answer your question,

Josh,

In very,

Very brief.

So it's true that as human beings,

We don't experience just body without mind for an extended period,

Nor do we experience mind without body for an extended period,

Unless we're very advanced in meditation.

And the reason for that is these causal links that I was just speaking about.

So there are causal laws between materiality and mentality.

Mentality having no physical characteristics,

But having characteristics of,

For example,

The function of knowing,

The function of perceiving,

The function of experiencing something as pleasant or unpleasant,

The function of joy,

The function of mindfulness,

Many functions there in the mind,

But no physical characteristics.

And then the body that does have physical characteristics,

Like a size and a place and hardness,

Softness,

Roughness,

Smoothness,

Heaviness,

Lightness,

Heat,

Cold,

For example.

So as I understood your question,

Josh,

It's what are those causal relationships between materiality and mentality that keep them all the time together?

So there's a few,

And I think it's probably beyond the scope of this podcast to go into them in too much detail,

But I will list a few of the most important ones.

So one is that almost every moment of mind is creating materiality throughout the body.

We call this materiality mind-borne materiality.

This kind of materiality is responsible for our speech.

It's responsible for our movement.

It's also responsible for our physical,

Emotional responses.

So if many mind moments arise as sad,

Then there will be a physical response throughout the body.

If many mind moments arise that are joyful,

There'll be a physical response throughout the body.

So this is one really important causal link between materiality,

Mentality.

In this causal link,

Mentality is producing materiality.

Another really important causal link is what we call the material basis.

So we all know that we can experience the external world through the eye,

Ear,

Nose,

Tongue,

Body,

And also through the mind.

That's because there are certain types of materiality in the body that are sensitive to experience.

There's materiality in the eye that's sensitive to light,

Materiality in the ear that's sensitive to sound,

Materiality in the nose that's sensitive to smell,

Materiality in the tongue that's sensitive to taste,

Materiality in the body that is sensitive to various types of physical sensation.

And then there's materiality in the mind that actually isn't sensitive,

But it's supportive of consciousness.

So we can say dependent on the materiality in the eye,

Eye consciousness arises.

The materiality in the eye that's sensitive to light acts as a physical foundation for eye consciousness to arise.

The same structure applies in the ear.

So sensitive materiality in the ear acts as the physical basis,

The physical foundation for ear consciousness to arise.

Sensitive materiality in the nose functions in the same way for the consciousness of smell to arise and so on.

And a certain type of materiality actually located in the heart area is responsible for mind consciousness to arise.

So if we have a memory or a thought or something that we're knowing that's unconnected from our present physical experience of the five senses,

It's based on mind consciousness.

It's a type of materiality in the heart that is the material support for that.

There are other links like causal links I could go into.

I think those are probably the most two important ones that I'll explain today.

Does it answer the question,

Josh?

I'm pretty sure it totally fails to answer your question,

Denny.

Yes,

We'll go right back to Denny's question.

It just,

And we won't go into this,

I just wanted to point this out.

It's just mind blowing how powerful the mind can translate into actually changing the physical body.

And I would just love to dive deep,

And it's beyond the scope today,

But dive deep into how that actually happens.

And I guess in the Abhidhamma,

It talks more about if you get down to the minutest level of matter,

It turns into these small particles.

I don't know if I'm representing that right,

But just how it step,

The how of it,

And how the mind will step down into actually rearranging particles within the body to make that happen,

You know?

And I always mention this to folks who are into neurology,

Neurologist,

And maybe it's too harsher and critical of a judgment,

But I always look and ask if they're familiar with Abhidhamma because a lot of the things beyond the physical things that they're testing for and studying,

You know,

How does it relate to everyday life?

And the Abhidhamma has laid that out,

You know,

What you thought a long,

Long time ago,

And very detailed advanced things.

And they weren't even relying on,

You know,

High-end technical equipment,

Right?

It was just all mind and consciousness.

And I think it would be helpful maybe before we move into,

I'll let Beth comment on that,

Obviously,

If there's any comment for that.

And then maybe we could go into defining some of these terms here.

Maybe that will help.

One question at a time,

Josh,

Is it okay?

Is it okay?

Yes,

Hopefully we'll get to that.

Josh,

Josh,

Hold on,

Hold on,

Hold on.

You guys are so far away from me.

But I wanna just dial back a bit because when I talk about the brain,

I misspoke and I misunderstood thinking that the brain and the mind is related.

But then yet,

When I listen to Beth talks,

She uses the heart as something that is related to the mind.

So I wonder if,

Beth,

Can you speak to the brain,

The heart,

And the mind?

What does all that mean?

Yeah,

That's a great question.

So Josh spoke really briefly there about these small,

Small particles.

So that's a piece of foundational knowledge I'll try to explain first.

And actually,

I'll backstep even one more step.

So Josh was also speaking there about how much ancient wisdom could know just through the mind without telescopes and all the rest of it.

And the tool they were using was samadhi.

And so this is another sort of loud message I want to give to the scientific community is the power of samadhi as a scientific tool.

There's quite a lot science has managed to know through the five senses and augmenting those senses.

So like improving what we can see with the eye with,

For example,

A telescope.

It's a course example,

But improving what we can know with the ear.

We're still basically relying on the five senses.

And what samadhi does is it's a massive refinement of what we can know directly with the mind.

And consciousness is something,

Because it has no physical characteristics,

It's not perceivable through the five senses.

It's not perceivable through augmentations of the five senses.

It's only perceivable directly through the mind.

So it's perceivable with samadhi.

Samadhi is the tool that we need in order to be able to observe these things directly.

And so what is samadhi?

Samadhi is,

In brief,

It's a mind that can focus on one subtle object for a long time.

So oftentimes I give this simile of if you have a hose pipe with lots of sort of holes in it,

Hose pipe for carrying water,

It's got lots of holes in it.

So all of the water is seeping out of the holes and the water that gets to the end of the hose pipe is very weak and feeble.

But if you were to plug up those holes in the pipe,

Then you've got like a power hose.

The mind is the same.

We've got a lot of attention going off to the past or the future,

To thoughts and theories and stories and all sorts of things.

And when we learn to focus our attention,

It's like plugging up the holes in the pipe.

We can get a very powerful,

Very focused attention that we would call when it gets to a certain level of refinement,

We would call that mind samadhi.

The mind that's concentrated in a state of samadhi can know things on a very,

Very subtle level.

So on the physical level,

When we pay attention to the body,

We start to see that the body is made up of particles that are momentarily arising and passing away.

They're coming into and out of existence.

I don't think that claim would surprise modern scientists too much.

With samadhi,

We can observe on a very subtle level.

So for example,

Within the root of one hair,

We might be able to observe many thousands of particles arising and passing away.

Maybe more,

You can really like zoom in,

Zoom in,

Zoom in,

Zoom in,

Depending on how long you can sustain your attention there.

So the particles that I spoke of in the heart do the function of supporting consciousness.

There are lots of other types of materiality,

Lots of other particles in the heart doing other functions.

And there are a few particles that are doing the function of supporting consciousness.

It's not much,

Doesn't have much to do with the physical function of the conventional heart that's pumping blood around the body.

This is just the location of these particles that support consciousness.

As I said,

Then almost every moment of consciousness that arises dependent on this materiality in the heart is producing materiality throughout the body.

It's producing particles throughout the body.

And it's also producing particles in the brain.

So the mind that arises,

The consciousness that arises leaves its physical imprint in the brain.

And that's why we see in the brain,

There's a physical imprint of all of our mental activity,

But also in other places in the body,

There's also a physical imprint of our mental activity.

It's not difficult to understand if you meet a person who has a habit of anger,

You can see the physical imprint in their body,

Not only in their brain.

If you meet somebody who has a habit of meditation,

You can see the physical imprint in their body.

You don't need to dissect their brain.

So materiality is produced throughout the body and also in the brain.

Does that go some way to answering your question,

Denny?

I'm still with the process of digesting,

But that's okay.

I feel like I'm a little kid with the strength to the balloon,

I just didn't want the balloon to get too far away from me,

But that's fine,

That's fine.

Thank you for that,

Thank you for that.

If you ask a big question,

Then I have to give a big answer.

Yes,

Yes,

Yes,

I know.

But maybe one more question.

You did mention samadhi,

And I think in some of your talk,

You mentioned samatha.

What's the difference in samadhi and samatha?

They are loosely synonyms.

So we would say samatha is the practice and samadhi is the state.

So we talk about samatha practice to reach states of samadhi.

Ah,

I see.

So now,

Beth,

The particles and the noticing of those particles themselves,

That's actually perception though,

Right?

It's still perception,

Correct?

There's always perception,

And there's also something physical really there.

But the actual act of observation can't really be separated from perception either,

Correct?

That's right,

That's correct,

Yeah.

So in each moment of mind,

So in the same way that the body is made up of momentarily arising particles,

The mind is also made up of moments,

Discrete moments,

That arise and pass away one after the other very quickly.

So in each of these moments,

We could call them a mind moment,

If you like.

They're very,

Very fast,

Like thousands in a second.

In each moment,

There's consciousness that does the knowing of the object.

There's also a bunch of other mental factors,

A bunch of other mental qualities that do different functions in that moment of consciousness.

Some of those mental qualities arise in every single moment,

They're universal.

And then some mental qualities only arise in some moments.

So we all know from our experience,

Joy is only there sometimes,

Anger is only there sometimes,

Unfortunately mindfulness is only there sometimes.

And then there's other mental qualities that are always there.

So consciousness is always there in every moment,

Perception is also there in every moment.

Perception we could say is like knowing the object as,

So it's recognition.

It's not just the receiving of an object that we're knowing,

But it's the act of recognizing it as being red or being blue or being car,

Tree,

Beth,

Josh,

Whatever it might be.

And this goes into,

You know,

Perceptual thing is it's just so important in our everyday lives because you turn on news or you hear people's opinions and how people view the world.

And it's all,

A lot of it has to do with perceptual level.

And it ties into this other question that I had about,

You know,

Well,

Just for an example,

Since we're talking about science,

You know,

Some neurologists and whatever they consider things hallucinations,

Or then you get people who are doing psychedelic drug trips,

Or even maybe you were visiting these interesting realms and inner realms and meditation,

Where there's this very subtle forms and there's really no reference point.

So we're,

I guess we're on the census coming in and it's so fantastical,

But there's really not much of a reference point.

I mean,

If you had to start talking about it and start giving language to what's being seen,

Then there's,

It doesn't seem adequate when compared to like,

Oh,

I'm looking at a computer.

Oh,

I'm talking to Beth,

You know,

It's so maybe,

Maybe you can speak to this if you feel it,

If it's relevant or not.

In addition,

Beth.

It would be great Josh,

If you could just like,

Be really clear what the question is.

In addition,

I still wanna get back to the most,

The initial question,

Which was the one when you were speaking to the camera,

Talking about your own journey,

Your own spiritual journey.

And you mentioned how one of the things that you wanna do as you become a householder once again,

Is to find opportunity to interact with modern scientists.

And if I hear you correctly,

When you were talking in the early part of the show,

That you're basically appealing to the modern scientists and says,

Among all the tools that you have in the toolbox,

Whether it is a scanning electron microscope or whatever tools,

They should really consider adding Samadhi as a tool.

Yes.

Your idea of that is like the human mind is like this funnel that's full of holes and your world opens as you pluck it.

Is that kind of a correct summary of your imitation?

Yes,

I'd love to get some,

Because my scientific knowledge is massively out of date and I know the meditation side well,

But I don't know the science side well.

And so I would like to,

Like I don't know what is the cutting edge of like particle physics at the moment,

I have no idea,

Or neuroscience or quantum mechanics or any of these things.

So I would like,

My dream is to take experts in these fields and teach them to deep Samadhi and then allow them to investigate these really refined materialities and mentalities for themselves.

That's what I'd love to do.

And as for Josh's question about perception.

So yeah,

Perception is highly,

Highly conditioned.

It's perception that does the function of learning and of memory.

Again,

This quality of recognition.

So if you imagine a baby,

They've got very few perceptions at their disposal,

Very few things that they recognize.

And gradually through conditioning,

Through continued exposure,

Our perceptions are like,

If you like the shop of perceptions that we have is better stocked.

So they build on each other,

They become more refined and more elaborate until we can pull up perceptions that are really abstract like irony or justice,

Or I don't know,

Blue and pink lollipop or something.

We've got all of these perceptions in our mind that are really complex.

So what happens sometimes in deep meditation also in psychedelic experiences is our perception becomes free and all of these habits,

Grooves that we've got in of perceiving things in the same way again and again and again.

We're able to sort of like break that habit temporarily.

It's like our perception's got wings.

And so sometimes new perceptions can come in and when there's a new perception,

Something that we're unfamiliar with,

Then we're left with this question of like,

Oh,

What word to put on it?

What other perceptions is it linked to?

What was it a bit like?

So if we go into psychedelic experiences or even meditative experiences without a good teacher,

There's a danger that when these new perceptions come up,

Especially if they're associated with strong feelings,

That we can attach meaning to them that is undue.

So it's very common,

For example,

In meditation,

Maybe in states of bliss where the mind floods with light or some psychedelic experiences,

People might think,

Oh,

That must be enlightenment or I met God or wherever it might be.

This is just the mind's attempt to link perceptions.

What the Buddha told us,

What the Dharma tells us is the most important message that we need to take at that time is this simple fact that perception can change.

Oh,

There were different perceptions happening.

Perception can change.

And we stay with the changing nature of perception for long enough,

It becomes apparent that perception is also not me,

It's not mine,

It's non-self,

It's renounceable.

And this is where we start to find liberation.

So did that answer both of your very different questions?

It did mine.

I'm still fascinated the how of all that,

How that all happens each mind moment by mind moment and why.

So it's the how and the why,

The even super more profound processes and questions.

And we really don't have time to go into this,

But I've encouraged Beth before.

I would love to see how she teaches an Abhidhamma course because it's not just from books.

She sees and knows it.

I'm not sure.

Beth,

I'm sorry,

I'm not sure you answered my question,

But it did raise another one.

I'm sorry I didn't answer your question,

Danny.

No,

No,

No,

I'm sure you did.

It's not you,

It's me,

Okay?

It's always me.

But sometimes I just need to listen to it again and then it's your way to eventually click.

But the question I have now is,

It's also something else that you spoke about when I was listening to your video and it's related to what you just said,

Is that the importance of having a good teacher who can guide you.

Otherwise we're mistaking these pit stops as the destination.

That's the problem,

Right?

Yes.

But actually the problem is even deeper than that.

And so earlier I asked about samadhi and samatha,

Which helped,

Thank you very much,

You actually helped clarify that for me.

But then in the United States,

We talk a lot about vipassana,

Samatha and vipassana.

And I remember one of the video you did,

You talk about how Americans tend to have a way of dumping down.

And I know that because when I come to the United States 50 years ago,

I see what they call Chinese cuisine is nothing like what I had back home,

Right?

So Americans have a very tradition of just taking some culture and just somehow making its own and simplify it.

But that is happening also with samatha and vipassana.

And I remember you spoke a little bit about that.

And can you elaborate on that?

I think that's very important for audience.

Imagine an audience are the one that they probably start someplace and they wanna move towards someplace else.

And along the way,

They will pick up trainings that are popular in the United States.

And I think it will be important to speak to your perspective,

Since you learned it from the tradition,

The Tarawa tradition.

Yeah,

Thanks for the question,

Denny.

So I think actually what we have is a vocabulary problem more than anything else.

So there are methods that teachers are teaching that are actually really good methods.

And I think one thing that I've learned when I've come to teach in the West,

And I'm sure the generation of teachers that went before me also learned is we need a lot of methods on the basic,

Because we don't come from a Buddhist culture.

We're just about now as a culture starting to learn mindfulness.

There's a lot to do on the level of morality.

And so we need meditation methods that are quite basic.

The culture needs that.

So I've got nothing bad to say about the very many wonderful teachers who are teaching basic meditation.

It's really good,

It's helping a lot of people.

The trouble is that they're using words.

Maybe there weren't other words available or whatever.

They're using words for those practices that are actually used to describe something much higher.

And the danger is when they do that,

That people then don't make the effort to do the high one because they think they're already there.

And so I've heard all sorts of people tell me really strange things or what jhana is.

Like,

They focus on the joy in their body and that's the second jhana or something like this.

So it can be very difficult to teach people the real jhana if they have been told by someone that they've already experienced it.

Because why put in all of the months of work for the real one when they could do the not real one in like a 10 day retreat?

And the same thing with vipassana.

So if it is really jhana,

If it's really a state of samadhi,

Here I'm using the words jhana and samadhi interchangeably.

If it's really jhana or samadhi,

Then it will be a state of uninterrupted knowing of a mental object.

So it's not an object that we know through the five senses.

It's not a bodily sensation.

It's a mental object,

Oftentimes but not always perceived as a light.

And we're able to know that object for,

For example,

One hour,

Two hours,

Three hours,

Uninterrupted.

Uninterrupted means a thought doesn't arise.

We don't hear a sound.

We don't feel the sensations in the body.

We're not disturbed by anything.

We don't know the time.

All we know is our meditation object.

When we're able to do that,

There's a natural bliss and joy to the mind,

But that bliss and joy isn't our object of attention,

Our meditation object.

Usually we call that meditation object at this stage a nimitta.

It's just a Pali word that means meditation object.

That's our object of attention.

That's our object of focus for a long time,

Uninterrupted.

That's a state of samadhi.

That's what I was meaning by plugging up the holes in the hose.

All of the mind's attention is going on just one thing for a long time.

When we speak about vipassana,

Vipassana strictly starts at the level when things start momentarily arising and passing away,

Momentarily coming into and out of existence.

So the very first level of vipassana is called nama rupa paricheda jnana.

It means defining materiality and mentality,

Knowing what is materiality,

What is mentality.

The level of materiality that we're interested here is,

As Josh first mentioned,

These tiny little particles that are arising and perishing.

So we need our mind and our wisdom to be on the level that we can directly observe that.

And on the level of mentality,

We're speaking about these moments of consciousness coming into and out of existence.

So that's many moments,

Hundreds of moments in the space of one thought.

So again,

We need a refined enough level of attention that we can be directly observing that in order to reach the first level of vipassana.

So there are other practices that are being taught,

For example,

Feeling the sensations in the body or noting thoughts arising in the mind.

Those practices are really great.

They help us establish a rudimentary level of mindfulness.

They're really great,

They're helpful.

They bring skill to our daily lives.

But it's a very different use.

If I'm gonna be sort of forgiving about it,

It's a very different use of the word vipassana as is used in the Pali texts and their commentaries.

And so we need to be really careful there as we move forward in a culture because the Buddha said,

When the Dharma dies out in the world,

It won't be because anybody comes to attack the Dharma or destroy the Dharma.

It will be because a false Dharma arises that's like more tempting.

And when we engage in this culture of dumbing down,

I'm not sure we realize quite how risky it is,

Quite how much damage we're doing to the profound liberating teachings of the Buddha.

Does that answer your question,

Danny?

Yes,

Thank you so much for that.

Thank you so much for that.

Again,

Speaking as a layman,

And many of our students who come to our Saturday practice which focus mainly on materiality,

The physical body,

How do we go about taking them towards a spiritual goal?

So it's great to focus on the physical body because it's right here and it helps us to get really present.

It also helps us to get out of our thoughts.

And when we're lost in thought,

There's almost always a lot of delusion in that in the beginning stages of meditation.

So the body is a really great objective focus and the Buddha praised mindfulness of the body in many ways.

The question is how can we bring wise attention to the body?

So there are a few ways of paying attention to the body praised by the Buddha.

You can find them in the Mahasati Pattana Sutta.

Now I will mention maybe just three,

But there are more.

So the first way and really famous way is to pay attention to the breathing,

The breathing aspect of our physical experience.

It's a great object to anchor the attention.

Also the breathing has this added bonus that as our mind calms down,

Our breath calms down more.

So it's encouraging our mind to calm down even more and then our breath will calm down even more.

So the breath is carrying us into deeper,

Deeper states of calmness and peace and clarity.

A second way of paying attention to the body is with the perception of impermanence.

So we might at first think that the body is a very stable,

Solid thing.

As we sustain our attention more,

We'll notice that it's very difficult to find anything that isn't changing.

And as we can focus on that changing nature of the sensations and the different things that we perceive in our body,

We're also guiding ourselves into deeper states of wisdom.

As we hold that focus more and more often,

Then the changing will become quicker or more subtle and it's guiding us into these stages of vipassana.

Then the third practice that I'll mention today is called four elements meditation.

This is where we start to directly focus on the physical characteristics of materiality.

Things like the hardness and the softness in the body,

The heat and the cold,

The pushing and the supporting of the movement in the body,

Like the flowing and the cohesion,

We call it the sticking together of the characteristics in the body.

As we focus on those characteristics more,

It's helping to refine our mind to the level where we will eventually be able to directly see these momentarily arising and passing away particles.

So that's three of a few ways that you can practice mindfulness of the body.

Does that answer your question?

Yes,

Yes,

Very much so.

Thank you so much for that.

In some way,

We are doing all three just in a sort of a disorganized way,

But.

Yeah,

Better to just choose one,

No?

Quality over quantity.

Well,

It's hard to choose when you don't know what they're,

Anyway,

You've been,

You know,

We actually,

Josh and I actually been practicing together online since the beginning of pandemic,

And I know you have too.

I was just gonna ask you more of a philosophical question.

As you look out,

Interacting with your students and fellow practitioners,

Do you think this event,

This pandemic event would be a,

What does it mean to the sort of the spiritual community?

What do you think it would mean in time?

Are more people seeking?

No,

I can't say like that.

What I've seen in the pandemic is that it's been,

Everybody's reacted to it differently.

I don't think I've spoken to two people who have had the same experience this pandemic.

So I don't see any general trend at the moment.

Maybe that will become apparent in a few years time when we're sort of like out of the woods,

But my experience teaching people one-on-one has been highly individualized.

Some people have loved the pandemic and I don't know,

Maybe they got a good deal from their employer and they didn't have to work and they had loads of time for medication.

Other people have been thrown into chaos and anxiety.

Some people have had more time for retreat.

Some people have been stuck at home,

Homeschooling their kids.

So I don't see any general trend to you.

I would have to agree with that.

I don't think that it's the event itself doesn't drive people to change,

But if you have a tendency to be more spiritual,

It would just accelerate that.

And I think that people who have no desire to be spiritual,

Then they will drive it in a different way.

That's what I think.

That's why I have seen that.

Yeah,

Maybe that's why I'm not sure.

I think that's why I have seen that.

Yeah,

Maybe I think a lot as well is just dependent on the specifics of people's situations,

Their financial situations and the practicalities of their life.

If like the pandemic has cut them a lucky break or thrown them into chaos,

This is,

I think it's been really highly individualized.

So Beth,

If I may kind of summarize,

Because we start out by wanting to focus on this question of materiality versus mentality.

I think if I hear you correctly,

The mentality part is really the possibilities.

Most of us don't really understand that part,

Don't have the tool to experience that part.

And I think what you're saying to us is that there is that whole possibility that we can explore if we just have the right teacher and the right tool and the right setting,

Which ultimately get into Samadhi.

So that's very,

Very encouraging,

Very,

Very inspiring for us.

So I like hearing that.

Yeah,

Come explore with me,

Danny.

Yes,

Yes,

Absolutely,

Absolutely.

Now that we have the good teacher.

Now,

I wanted to go back to that original video that you did that talks about yourself and materiality versus mentality is that one thing that really hits me.

And so I think we put that aside as much as we can without really having the experience.

Unlike Josh,

Who really want to dive deeper,

I'm not there.

But there's another part that you spoke about when you introduce yourself,

Which is about why you felt that you need to be among people in order to practice spiritually,

As opposed to where you were before,

Which is more or less in seclusion.

Can you speak to that?

This is like the,

We talked about the Arahant path versus the Bodhisattva path,

If I'm using the term correctly.

Yeah,

I didn't disrobe because I'm on a Bodhisattva path.

I know.

I'm not that.

That's my word,

But I know you won't.

I know you won't.

I'm not that compassionate.

I know you would not,

But that's how I perceive it.

But anyway,

Put that aside.

Just don't let me put words in your mouth.

You speak.

You speak.

Yeah,

No,

It was a selfish move.

So I would say that my deepest attachment is probably to like growth and learning.

I sometimes joke that if they were to say to me,

You don't have to get reborn again,

You could do,

And you're gonna like burn in hell for a thousand years,

But you'll learn something.

I'd be like,

Yeah,

All right,

Sign me up.

So yeah,

Highly like addicted,

You could say,

To growth and learning.

It's this,

That it's like the sticky part of existence for me.

And one day I'll overcome that attachment,

But not yet.

And so after 10 years of monastic life,

I was so happy.

I loved being a nun.

And maybe after 10 years of doing most things you can imagine you're sort of familiar with it.

You know the game.

I was surrounded by really great people,

But it was very familiar.

It was very samey.

It was the same types of conversations with the same kinds of people who agreed with me in a very samey safe environment.

And I was just feeling the need for challenge and for something new and for growth and to maybe test the strength of my spiritual practice against some like tougher challenges really.

So I got that,

I just wrote,

I got plenty of challenges and it's been great.

So now I find myself sort of yo-yoing a bit,

Sort of throwing myself into the new challenges of life and then stepping back and taking time for retreat and taking the wisdom from that and integrating it and then back out into the world and going to find something new and then back into retreat.

So that's the speaking of in new areas.

So you're in,

I mean,

Back to the regular world here,

You're in,

You're humble about there,

Right?

And it is- I am,

Yeah.

I went to correct Denny a few times when he called me a householder.

I wish I was a house,

I don't wish I was a householder.

I love my van.

Yeah,

I'm a van holder and I'm in her at the moment.

Her name is Denny.

And I'm in her at the moment,

Her name is Delphine.

And it's like halfway between the homeless and a householder life,

I would think,

Something like that maybe if we had to,

Yeah.

It's not homeless,

She's my home.

Oh,

Yeah.

Yeah,

Yeah,

She's lovely.

I don't even know,

I just,

Again,

It's the misuse of terminology,

So forgive me.

I'm not alone in that.

I'm not alone in that.

Yeah,

No,

I'm in love with her,

She's beautiful.

You can't see her from the outside at the moment,

But she's like 1974 baby blue Volkswagen.

And like a hippie bus,

She's like right on brand Beth.

And yeah,

I love her.

I've got way more attachment to my van than a meditation teacher should have.

More fuel for practice.

Going back to the four elements meditation,

I've been collecting stuff on different methods and practices and you gave us a great overview.

And from what I understand that the PA'AK method goes even into more systematic detail and like step by step methods going further into that.

I wonder,

I don't know if it's necessary to go into depth on that now,

But I was curious if you learned any other techniques besides PA'AK side house method on the four elements meditation,

If you can just speak briefly about the different methods and modalities with that particular meditation,

Because I don't know if the Buddha actually gave in depth meditation instructions on that particular thing,

Although the four great elements are mentioned so much throughout,

So I could be wrong on that.

Yeah,

We find four elements meditation in the suttas and in the commentaries quite often,

Like the Buddha taught four elements meditation to his son,

Rahula in the Mahasati Pitana Sutta.

I haven't seen four elements meditation taught systematically in any of the main meditation traditions that we have today.

There's something sort of similar,

But much less systematic being taught in Guenka,

Which is sort of a body scan of the bodily sensations.

But it's a bit confused.

The four elements aren't mentioned in Guenka is calling it Vedana,

But very much telling people to discern the like the hot and the cold and the rough and smooth and the tingling and these things,

Which is the four elements,

But he's calling it Vedana.

So actually that the Guenka is teaching is very close to four elements meditation,

Like the beginning stages of four elements meditation within the body scan,

But it's not quite the same.

He's missing the water element there because you can't actually know the water element through the sense of touch.

So we could call it like one of my teachers used to joke that the Guenka body scan is three elements meditation,

Which is actually accurate.

It is very close to a three elements meditation.

And in sort of Mahasi based practices,

I haven't heard four elements meditation described in very much detail.

Have you heard it anywhere else,

Josh?

As far as Buddhist tradition,

Not so much.

I mean,

There's a lot of different overlappings between different teachers.

And I don't really feel comfortable to go into representing each teacher and their methods and modalities.

And then outside of Buddhism too,

It does differ a little bit,

But there's so much overlap.

And maybe if the practices that you've practiced for four elements,

Maybe is I'm interested in the internal versus external.

If there's any difference initially,

And then if that barrier tends to dissolve a little bit,

So where there's not much,

I don't know,

Differentiation between inner and outer of the four elements or how that works.

But then if it's a conscious choice to pick back up that perception in everyday life to discern inner and outer too.

Good question.

So at first with four elements meditation,

As with all meditation subjects,

We start by knowing that meditation object usually based on the senses.

So when we do four elements meditation,

At first we're very much using the sense of touch to know,

For example,

The heat and the cold of the body,

Hard,

Soft,

Rough,

The smooth,

Those characteristics I've already mentioned.

As our samadhi starts to deepen,

We're eventually able to know those same characteristics directly with the mind.

We're not relying on the sense of touch anymore.

Difficult to imagine,

Isn't it,

That you would be able to know that something was hot,

But without actually physically touching it,

But it is possible.

So as the concentration deepens,

We can start to perceive those characteristics of hard,

Soft,

Rough,

Smooth,

Heavy,

Light,

Heat,

Cold,

Et cetera,

Et cetera.

Also outside of the body,

Because we're no longer depending on the sense of physical touch.

So that's when we can start to discern with samadhi external materiality.

When we do that though,

We don't lose the sense of the skin boundary.

The reason is the skin boundary is very sensitive.

It's very distinctive.

So we're always able to discern that.

So it's not too much of an effort to discern the external materiality whilst maintaining the sense of where the physical body is.

Does that answer the question?

Yes,

It does.

Thank you,

Beth.

Beth,

If I may,

I'd like to ask a hopefully related question which is not so much about the four elements,

But the four postures.

One of the questions that was raised by one of our students has to do with the issue of between sitting meditation or just meditation-wise,

You're in a still state versus meditation-wide,

You are in a moving or dynamic states like walking or exercise or whatever.

Is that even related to the four elements or that's a separate question now?

It can be related to the four elements and it can be also related to any meditation subject.

So the general sort of rule is the more subtle our objective focus,

The deeper our meditation will go.

So if you imagine back to this simile of the hose,

If the hole in the end of the hose is really small,

The water's gonna shoot out even more powerfully.

So in the same way,

The more subtle our objective focus,

The more powerful the mind becomes,

The deeper the meditation goes.

So in general,

When we're in a moving posture,

It keeps the object a bit more course.

So it's usually not so easy for the meditation to go quite so deep,

But there are benefits of having a slightly more course meditation object.

So oftentimes I describe meditation as like chasing.

So if this is our meditation object and this is our mind,

Then we want to start off with the meditation object just a bit more subtle than the mind.

And then the mind needs to do some work to calm down to meet it,

And then it's easy to focus.

And then when we focus for a little while longer,

The meditation object will become even more refined,

Even more subtle.

It's difficult to focus again.

The mind needs to do some work to calm down and refine,

And then it's easy to focus again,

And then the meditation object will become more subtle,

The mind will refine.

And this is the basic process of deepening meditation.

Well,

What happens is if we start with this gap too big,

So the meditation object is very subtle,

But the mind is very rough and distracted,

We won't be able to focus.

We won't be able to find our meditation object.

We'll either fall asleep or we'll just be lost in thought because the object isn't attention-grabbing enough.

So if we've had a busy day,

If we're worried about something,

If our mind is really full,

Really distracted,

It can be really helpful to use a more coarse posture like walking,

Or even go for a run and focus on the breathing or focus on your footsteps.

It's a coarse object.

Your practice won't be able to go quite so deep,

But at least it can hold your attention.

So we need to use an object that works for us where our mind is at at the time.

We need to be able to diversify our meditation object based on the quality of our mind when we start practice.

Does that answer the question,

Denny?

Yes,

Very,

Very much so.

Thank you so much for that.

Thank you.

Beth,

Maybe you could go through real briefly,

And I'll throw it back to Denny.

Maybe some meditation objects that are really common for people from coarse to refined.

Oh,

Yeah.

So at the really coarse end,

We've got things like mantras,

Chanting,

Things that actually use the voice.

When we've got to use the voice and repeat something,

Then there's only so much thinking we can do because all of our work is going into saying this mantra or repeating this thing.

So that would be a nice coarse object.

Guided meditations are up there with really coarse objects.

I sometimes describe guided meditations as being like riding a bike with the stabilizing wheels on.

Like you can't really wobble before someone said something and reminded you what you should be doing.

So again,

It's not easy to go deep with guided meditations because you're all the time being interrupted by someone talking,

But it is a very coarse way to bring your mind a little bit more into stillness.

If then we're gonna remove the words and the guided meditations,

Visualizations can be quite coarse because the mind is very busy.

So if you're doing meditations that are like a story and imagine yourself and you go to this place and this person is here and this light happens and there's a cloud,

Whatever it might be,

This is usually quite coarse because the mind has to do a lot.

A little bit more subtle then would be things like focusing on really coarse sensations in the body.

Like I was just saying,

Maybe the footsteps when you're walking,

The rise and the fall of the breath at the abdomen,

It could be.

Along with that,

We could use a mental noting which can help overcome some of the heaviest of the thinking.

Then we can move into a little bit more subtle would be like a coarse perception of the breath,

Maybe with some counting.

So as we breathe in,

Out,

We count one,

In,

Out,

We count two.

And then getting more subtle,

We've got maybe just being silently with the breath or silently scanning the body for sensations.

More subtle still,

We start working with mental objects like nimittas,

Casino objects,

We start working with these material collapses.

More subtle still,

We start working directly with the mind.

I'll leave it there for now.

Beth,

When I think about our Saturday practice and when I think about the students who come to our sessions,

I haven't experienced as a businessman,

I tend to think of them as consumers.

Not necessarily,

It's not meant as an insult,

But it's like I'm thinking of them as consumer because coming here,

They're making a consumer choice.

They want to devote time for their spiritual practice and they come to us versus come to someone else,

Which is fine.

But again- No,

It's not.

Okay,

You have the mic now.

You now have the mic.

Yeah,

It's not fine.

No,

The commodification of the Dharma really isn't fine.

Yeah,

I don't know.

I think I'll leave it at that.

I don't know.

Ask me another question.

Okay,

So let's rewrite.

So people are making choices and that's one of the things in the United States is we talk about the misuse of terminologies or the overuse of terminology.

Maybe not necessarily misuse,

But overuse of terminology.

But there's something else,

Is that there are so many choices.

There's the 10-day Vipassana that we talked about.

There's the mindfulness meditation of all varieties.

There's the Zen meditation.

There's the Chan meditation.

I don't think that we necessarily have to speak to every one of them,

But if I understand it correctly,

There is the two different branches.

The one that is the Theravada,

Which is a very systematic approach.

Everything is based on knowledge that has been passed down either verbally or written form.

And then there is the whole new way of doing meditation much closer to the Zen meditations where it's just very mystique,

Very mystery.

Seems like,

Josh,

Help me out.

Maybe I'm not asking you.

Mysterious,

Yes.

It's kind of,

Yeah.

It's unclear whether it was directly passed down from the Buddha or not,

Where there's really no question in the Theravada tradition.

It is said to be the direct words from the Buddha eventually written down if Beth can clarify.

So this is,

I mean this with all sincerity,

Is that if you could speak to that,

If you could just speak to that,

There is that very systematic way approach to meditative practice primarily from the Theravada tradition.

And then there's this other one that is much more mysterious approach,

Hand down by Buddhidharma,

Things like one hand clapping,

If the tree fall down in the forest and no one is there.

You know,

There's just so much mystery that people propagate.

Yeah,

So I don't know much about the canonical history of the Mahayana or the Zen texts.

I know very little about it,

So I'm probably not best placed to comment on that.

Josh is right about the Theravada texts that there seems to be like a kind of a general consensus amongst scholars that at least the main texts are sort of reliably passed down through oral tradition then written down since the time of the Buddha.

So probably things that the Buddha was actually saying.

As for the mystery of like Zen cones and stuff,

According to my understanding,

They are usually aimed at cutting through our belief in conceptual reality in one way or another,

Like taking us out of conceptual thought and into an experience of the moment or into the absurdity of concepts.

Does that make sense?

I think it does.

I think it does.

And then Dini,

I think you were asking too about with all the different choices,

You know,

Maybe you were looking or asking for guidance or advice on how one chooses to go about choosing a practice,

A teacher,

A modality,

Is that right?

This is my personal comment,

That when Beth talked about the Mahayana approach,

The Zen Buddhism approach,

We often focus on the corn,

You know,

These very mysterious questions that really has no answer.

And then I think Beth said something that really resonated with me,

Which is it's actually meant to confuse you,

To kind of take you away from this belief system that,

Now this again,

From a businessman,

The last thing you want is the customer who knows exactly what they want.

You know,

You actually want to confuse customer because then you have some room.

I'm kidding.

So maybe that's the difference.

You think those Zen masters were just being like good salesmen,

Dini?

I think we are all in the best,

And this I mean,

I think we are all in sales.

We are all in sales.

It's just,

You know,

Sometimes we think that selling is just selling merchandise,

But we are selling ideas.

In my experience,

The Dharma sells itself.

So the Buddha was really clear with his monks,

Like don't be evangelical,

Don't go out trying to convert people.

This is not the function of Buddhist monks.

Well,

I absolutely agree with that,

Beth.

But since I'm most likely is the only person among the three of us who has done any sales,

I could tell you with 100% certainty that product do sell itself.

We overemphasize the salesman aspect.

We're just there.

But anyway,

That's all what I want.

I worked in online marketing too,

Which is not exactly sales,

But it's similar.

And well,

We hit on something I think really important here because this perception in the West,

It's just not gonna change overnight.

At least I wish it would,

But because this whole thing of the marketplace,

Buying and selling,

It's just this everyday common thing that's so deeply entrenched in our daily lives,

In our mode,

In our aspects.

So,

And how we view and interact with the world,

How we think about the world and how we relate to each other even.

So no matter how we feel about it or what our perceptions are on it,

It's gonna be there when we talk to people about Dharma.

Even if it's not in the forefront,

It'll be in the background.

So it'll be,

I think it's a really- I would say like in my experience,

That's been true of my experience with Americans and not so true of my experience teaching Dharma in other places,

Which gives me the really strong message that it's not inevitable,

That it is changeable,

That it's not conducive to happiness,

Actually sort of seeing everything as a commodity and a product that needs to be sold,

That it's actually really destructive to sense of community and human relationships and you all can do something about it.

I totally agree,

Beth.

It's just,

How do we get our foot in the door there?

Start doing things by Dharma.

Yes,

Exactly.

And this is where I wanted to tie this back in because Beth and I,

The last recorded conversation I had with her on our site,

I kind of teased a cliffhanger about our hot ship,

Which we really don't have time.

So maybe we'll kick that can down the road to maybe pick it up or not pick it up later.

And the other thing is Beth has an economic background and we talked about generosity and the culture of giving too.

And I know that here in the West,

Money is such a really complex issue.

I think I have one advantage of it,

By I entertain so many different perceptions on it and perspectives without really getting emotionally involved in one perception over another.

However,

I do tend to lean towards the spirit of generosity because if you really look at it,

Everything in our lives have been given to us anyway.

I'll let you guys talk a little bit about it.

Yeah,

Josh,

Thank you for that.

I think this is an important topic.

Again,

It is something that I believe Beth felt very strongly about when she was introducing herself,

Which is about the generosity and the gift economy.

And I think,

Let me give me a chance to redeem myself here,

Which is that I absolutely agree with Beth in that Dharma is not a commodity and a spiritual practice cannot be a transaction.

It is absolutely wrong for us to think that we have to pay tuitions and with the expectations that we get something back because the minute that you expect something bad,

You're not gonna get it.

That's not the call of Dharma.

So,

Beth,

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Just what I speak so far,

If I'm wrong,

Just correct me.

Please.

And now just continue with that and talk about the gift economy,

The dhana and the generosity that you speak of.

Yeah,

So I'm sort of mindful of the time.

I've only got maybe about five minutes left before we need to close.

So gift economy is a massive topic.

I'm not sure I'll be able to cover it really well here.

Well,

Beth,

Then maybe let me suggest then that we find minutes that you speak to our student.

About gift economy,

You mean?

No,

Anything.

Oh,

Well,

Denny,

Actually,

To make it easier for Beth,

There's actually two brief questions from a student here.

So are there any moving exercises,

Beth practices,

In addition to her formal sitting meditation?

And then the second one is who slash when one benefits from an in-person teacher compared to an online practice as we do here?

So basically that means,

You know,

What are the difference between benefits of actually being in person with the teacher versus online?

Okay,

So as for physical practices,

I wouldn't say like I've mastered any kind of physical practice,

Like yoga or a martial art or anything like that.

But just for my own sort of enjoyment and wellbeing,

I like to swim and go for a run.

And I also like to do conscious dance practices,

Like,

You know,

Ecstatic dance,

Five rhythms,

Things like that.

Yeah,

But not on sort of the level of being able to teach any of those things just for my own enjoyment.

And then the second question was when to get a teacher.

Is that right?

Like the benefits,

I guess,

And drawbacks of both in-person and then online too,

I guess like what are some of the differences?

Oh.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Oh,

If you can be with a teacher in person,

It's always better than online.

The benefit of online is you can speak to a teacher who you're nowhere near them in the world.

That's the only benefit.

But if you're around the corner from a teacher,

Don't zoom with them,

Go and sit with them in the same room.

Because it's better,

You can make eye contact and you can see their body language and the connection with them is better when you're there in person.

And then as for when it is the right time to see a teacher,

Think if you're confused,

If you're stuck,

If you're stuck with motivation or stuck because you don't know what's happening or same things are repeating that you don't understand or you're bored or you're experiencing new things,

You want to know what to do next.

Any of these things,

Then go seek out a teacher,

Do some trial and error until you find someone that you feel can help you.

Beth,

Before you leave,

Do you have some advice for Josh and I?

Oh.

I want to say before Beth answers that,

That Beth has such well interactions with her.

She has such a kind and loving way to maybe stir up things from the depth that we've been overlooking and put them in such a useful kind of way for me to see an approach that I may have not been able to,

Who knows how long.

I just want to give compliments there.

You kind of put me on the spot there if I've got advice for either of you.

So I actually,

Denny,

I know very little about your meditation practice.

So on the spot,

I wouldn't want to give you any kind of meditation instruction,

But I'd be happy to speak to you about your meditation more.

On the gift economy stuff,

I'd love to talk to you about that more as well.

And I'd also really recommend that you read the work of Charles Eisenstein.

He's written very eloquently on gift economy.

Better than anything I've written.

So read that.

And yeah,

Josh,

I know we can speak more another time.

Well,

You might do that.

Beth,

Thanks so much for joining us today and being generous with your time.

And I felt it was a little bit awkward here and there,

But I think overall,

This obviously speaks for itself.

It's been very beneficial,

At least for me.

I know I can say that.

Yes,

Same here.

Beth,

I wanted to thank you for coming to our little platform here.

And I hope maybe in the future you will join us again.

Yeah,

Happy to.

Yeah,

So I think speaking for both,

Speaking for myself and hopefully Josh will agree as well,

Is that there's one thing that you talk about,

Which is about knowledge,

About really putting the information out there.

And so there's just so many choices,

So much information,

And we're not here to change the world.

We can't.

We can't even change ourselves half the time.

But at least we're willing to stick our neck out and say the wrong thing all the time and for the purpose of learning.

And I absolutely adore you for saying that.

It is the learning part that is more important.

And yeah,

Absolutely.

Yeah,

And I actually would make the same commitment.

If I were born in hell,

So be it.

It's not as much as you can be.

That's right,

The bodhisattva stuff said they can't be afraid of wherever they go,

Hell or heaven or wherever.

And you are a bodhisattva,

Beth.

And I know you're too humble to even acknowledge that,

But you are in my mind,

In everyone's mind,

You are a bodhisattva.

We thank you for that.

All right,

Thank you.

Thank you very much for having me.

It was lovely speaking to you guys.