Language: Meaning & Interpretation | Mindful Q&A #9
Wendy Nash and I explore language and the variability in interpretation especially in the light of how we use English terms for ideas and may not actually understand them. We also mention Wendy’s work with transportation, home retreat, love, belonging, the myth of impartiality, the dream-like nature of reality, waking up, “whatever we think the truth is it’s always other than that,” Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta – Wrong Interpretations, etc.
Transcript
You're listening to another Meditation Q&A with Wendy Nash and Josh DuPont on the Integrating Presence Podcast.
Today I'm joined again by Wendy Nash of kindlycutthecrap.
Com.
Wendy,
How's it going?
Yeah,
Good.
I'm calling from Gubbi Gubbi country in Queensland.
So we are cold,
Not like you.
It's probably warmer than it is for you.
If I'm doing this on Wisdom App,
For them to hear you,
I have to turn up my speaker so I can see if this works like this.
This is our ninth installment of Meditation Q&A.
I'm calling from Wales.
I'm at an Airbnb.
Just to catch people up really quick,
I finished a retreat with Insight Meditation Society,
IMS,
In the East Coast of,
Or roughly of America,
Barre,
Massachusetts.
But I was doing it online.
It was really good to practice in nature here a little bit and to do it from an Airbnb.
It's interesting how the retreat got closed down because they had plumbing issues.
So they were trying to deal with it for a while,
But then they called it off and the people went home early and joined online.
So it's interesting.
It's their first hybrid retreat.
They spent so much time in cameras and stuff like this and then they had plumbing issues.
But before that,
I stayed at a monastery for two weeks and I had never done that outside of retreat.
That was really interesting,
Planning on going the whole month of June at Amravati Buddhist Monastery.
And so that's going to be quite an experience,
I feel.
So that's just to kind of catch up what's going on here.
Wendy,
Oh,
You know,
And I have a new,
So,
You know,
Traveling,
Walking and whatnot and riding buses,
This remind me of something that Wendy sent.
And Wendy's been doing some work on the public transportation front.
And I think since we're not due to technically start here for another four minutes,
I wanted to ask Wendy about that and give her a chance to say kind of the work she's been doing on this.
So Wendy,
What you been up to with this?
So there's been,
I had questions about the meditation retreat.
I was like,
Oh,
I wonder how it's gone.
But we can talk about that.
So yeah,
So the group,
It's a community movement called Get Around Cabo Carfree,
Because I live in a place called Caboolture.
So it's the vernacular term for it is Cabo.
So Get Around Cabo Carfree.
And I guess it is really a big expression,
An extension of my Dharma practice.
So usually we have the Dharma practice in a Western perspective.
And it's about me,
How am I feeling?
How am I engaging with the world?
What am I doing?
What are my problems?
And when I moved up here a year ago,
So I moved up here a year ago,
Which is kind of amazing.
I don't know if you and I were online.
We must have been online only in this,
While I've been up here.
And I just sat on the bus and I went,
This is rubbish,
This bus trip.
It takes an hour and a half to go something which is 11 minutes by car.
It's absolutely rubbish.
And so I've been looking at how to make it better around here.
And basically,
Cars are the most financially,
Fiscally,
Economically,
Landscape,
Land use,
Community.
It's the most expensive,
Most inefficient,
Least good use of land and money.
And there's this idea that it's efficient,
But it's sort of not because it's limiting.
It's a very linear process.
So it starts with this idea that you just want to go A to B,
And there aren't implications if you get in a ton of metal and you do that.
But of course,
There's a whole lot of larger picture about it.
So I do it because I care about the community.
I want everybody to be able to get around Kabooltcha car free,
Because it's not good for the planet.
It's not good for the community.
It's not good for people who don't have the means.
It's very exclusionary.
And it's very gendered,
Because women often learn less than men.
And so owning a car takes up a greater proportion of their pay.
So what have you been doing?
I know you have a Facebook group,
Right?
And just connecting people,
Bringing awareness to what's going on,
What people might not know about the issue,
Right?
And just kind of maybe playing interplay between officials or what you're rolling out?
So a lot of education for myself,
Actually,
Because I just started it and I didn't know anything about it.
So I just a lot of education,
Meeting council officials,
Municipality,
Being inspired.
So giving speeches,
Learning facts and figures.
Yeah,
Working with volunteers.
So learning how to lead a community group and how,
You know,
When someone's a volunteer,
I always think,
You know,
I teach high tech startup founders how to be good leaders of their business.
And I just think they should all just start a community advocacy group where everybody volunteers because you get one person off one time,
They're gone.
They do it for the love and no other reason.
So you have to really honor their presence.
It's a very interesting process.
So yeah.
That's really good too.
And the culture is what the culture around tech and any businesses is huge too.
So what I guess the only other thing I really have this now is what's the reception been for your work around this and how has it been received basically?
You know?
Yeah.
I mean,
It's good.
Some people get it.
Some people really get it.
And I give them an answer and it's fantastic and they love it.
And then some people are going,
What are you talking about?
What do you I don't get like and what I really notice is that when when you sit within the more objectifying mind,
Then what I'm describing is underneath that objectifying mind.
It's exploratory.
It's curious.
It's open.
Whereas people who have a very objectifying mind,
It's much more shut down.
And so they don't get it.
So it is a better a bit of a they either get it or they don't kind of thing.
In all truth,
I find that people under 40 much,
Much more,
You know,
They've figured it out.
They're all they totally get it.
People over 50 kind of don't not even not even close.
So on the whole,
That's pretty much how it is.
Pretty wild that how the these generational gaps and divides can be so significantly different.
You know,
It's it's it really amazes me time and time again.
So,
Yeah.
So,
So you said,
Well,
Cool.
I'm glad to see your work on that and exploring that and see what what comes of that and see if you know what kind of momentum or just even,
You know,
If it helps people out,
You know,
Even individually,
You know,
That can it makes a huge difference.
So so you said you're going to go you said you were going to ask about retreat stuff.
Yeah.
I know we talked a little bit about your retreat,
The home retreat you did.
I wanted to ask you about your retreat.
Yeah,
Yeah.
That's what I reminded me of you sharing a little bit about your home retreat,
Too.
And so for me,
It was it was really interesting.
I haven't really practiced in relationship on a home retreat before.
It's just been me on my own before.
So it's a completely different dynamic.
So I don't know what to say about it publicly at this point other than,
You know,
It was different.
And yeah,
There's I guess if you have specific specific questions about it,
Maybe you will see what I can say about it before we get into the topic today.
And of course,
Anybody listening and watching,
You're welcome to chime in with questions at any time.
And did you do it with your girlfriend in the in the B&B?
Well,
I mean,
She didn't join me per se,
You know,
Doing the retreat as I did it.
She was there while I was doing it for most of the time.
Right.
And so you've got one person doing the retreat and one person just in the background.
She's quite a keen meditator,
Though,
Isn't she?
Well,
She was early on in her career and practice.
So yeah,
So not so much anymore,
Though,
As far as formal sitting practice.
It was actually her.
She wasn't familiar with the retreat container in Buddhism and how it's structured and whatnot.
So that took a little bit of.
Oh,
I don't know.
Yeah.
So she was she became familiar with that as it unfolded.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because I guess it was I guess I didn't spend enough time explaining exactly what it involved and entailed.
And so,
Yeah,
It's notice that what I say is completely different from what the not completely different,
But it can only vaguely point to what actually it is.
Right.
Yeah.
The thing is,
It's all an inner experience for the most part.
However,
There's a times where we're interacting with those we live with to on home retreat or possibly if there's not enough space in the area and it's not structured in a way.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
So let's let's start the topic.
Sure.
So we are talking about translating the nuances of translating.
So you're learning Danish slowly,
Slowly.
And actually,
I think that would be too much of a compliment.
But plan and planning to learn it.
Yes.
Yes.
That's the thing.
So I have done a few free things online.
But yeah,
That's a kind way to put it.
Let me just let me just read what Wendy wrote.
It's on the blog post.
In this ninth installment of the ongoing life series with Wendy Nash,
Acquiring into Meditation Practice on and off the cushion,
We plan to explore language and the variability and interpretation,
Especially in light of how we use English terms for ideas and may not actually understand them.
So that's a big one.
These just everyday English terms we use and how we might not actually fully understand them.
And then when he said,
I was thinking about the history of translating poly terms and how culture has played a big role in poor translations.
For example,
Dukka,
Sunyata,
Sati,
Dhamma,
Sangha,
Bodhi.
Now that you,
That's me,
Josh,
Live outside the United States and learning Denglish,
Danish,
It gives a new perspective on how tricky it is to translate well and how easy it is to misunderstand what people are trying to convey in their own language.
Yeah,
It's a huge thing.
And so I gave these lists to these articles specifically in Pali since Wendy and I have studied Buddhism.
And the biggest one I found the most that I might refer to here is Anicca Dukka Anatta.
But I've thrown in how those those key things,
Those key characteristics of existence may not actually be what the common translation that we've come to be,
Which I find fascinating.
But so the big topics here just to reiterate is just language in general and the variability in interpretation,
You know,
And how we think one thing can mean something,
But it actually might mean another.
And then how these terms maybe have cultural implications in the translation.
And then the Anicca Dukka Anatta,
Which basically are commonly translated as,
You know,
Impermanence,
Which is I think not very good one.
Suffering,
Which is okay.
And then Anatta,
Not self.
Maybe we'll see how I'd like to bring,
Shed some new light on there.
But Wendy,
Where do you want to start with this?
Ah,
See,
I was thinking actually enlightenment,
Because that came out of the idea that it was somehow associated with the European Enlightenment movement.
And that's what,
But they got the,
They didn't have the academic knowledge,
The language skills to properly understand it.
So,
And so that's one,
Which I think is,
Is difficult.
I think another one is wisdom.
And even we're on an app called the Wisdom App.
And when I meet people and they go,
Oh,
Yes,
It's about wisdom.
There's this idea that you're,
You're using your inner knowledge.
And there's some imparting the great wisdom.
This is our own cultural knowledge.
So,
And it's not at all that,
You know,
I think I found the best translation was Bodhi,
Which is why I put that word in.
But it's nothing to do,
Bodhi is nothing to do with wisdom.
And Dukkha,
Obviously,
Is usually translated as suffering,
But it's just,
It's kind of discomfort,
Sort of discomfort.
Anything that feels a bit uncomfortable,
Really,
From tiny to completely awful.
Yeah.
Yeah,
Dukkha,
I think the literal translation is,
It meant like a chariot axle.
And so if there was a,
You know,
It was a little bit off and you get a really bumpy ride,
It was just,
You know,
It just,
You know,
Had to go a long way like that.
It was just not smooth sailing pretty much.
To go to the first one,
The challenges that early European scholars had,
Just from reading the site Pure Dhamma,
And I read the Search for the Buddha too.
And you know,
Supposedly Pali is a oral language.
It didn't,
It wasn't written down until a long time after,
And it didn't have its own script to write it down.
So it was written in the Singhalese,
Is it Singhalese script?
Yeah.
And so it never was translated word for word until these early European scholars started translating and they were faced a daunting task because they were translating Sanskrit at the same time.
And you know,
And so they,
It's a completely like foreign to them.
And so,
And then they had to,
They had to figure out what was Pali and what was Sanskrit because some of it's quite similar,
Right?
And not only that is the,
The Buddha was said to not even speak Pali.
He was,
He was said to speak Manga,
I forget the exact language,
But then after it was preserved in a language called Pali and it was a spoken language,
But it didn't have its own script.
So all this stuff,
And supposedly it wasn't even translated into,
Was it Singhalese until 2007,
A complete word for word translation,
Early mid,
So this is like,
This is so baffling.
I mean,
That's only a few of the challenges of this,
But okay,
But so I'll put that on hold and maybe come back to that because Wendy talked also about the wisdom,
But there was one more thing in there,
Wasn't there?
I said Dukkha,
Which was uncomfortable.
Oh yes.
So yeah,
Dukkha,
That's a good one I can get to when we talk about Nitya Dukkha Natta,
But the wisdom thing is really,
Really key here.
I find this is really helpful.
So my definition of wisdom is it does come into knowledge,
But it's the application of knowledge.
So we get,
It goes from information,
We get information,
Then with that information we can gain knowledge sometimes,
But then to apply that knowledge in everyday life.
So wisdom to me is how I am in the world acting skillfully from what kind of how I know,
Not from a book.
I mean,
There's wisdom in books too,
But it's just like,
How do I know this for myself?
How do I really know something to my core,
To my bones?
And then using that to inform how I am in the world and how I can do skillful actions that lead away from suffering,
Not towards more suffering.
Now this is interesting with this notion of Bodhi,
Which what's your translation for it?
Some people say it's the enlightened,
Right?
Or yeah,
How do we want to look at this or how would you look at this?
Yeah.
I mean,
For me,
It's just about seeing clearly.
Really?
That's,
You know,
And it's seeing clearly and then does it cause harm?
In which case that's Dukkha.
Does it,
Is it,
Are we making it solid?
And that's interdependence or emptiness.
Is it,
Are our minds very stiff?
Then it would be the opposite of mindfulness.
We are not mindful,
Which is Sati.
Is it according to this sort of way of life,
Which is Dhamma?
So and the word I thought actually,
Sangha.
So Westerners use this word in a very different way to Asians.
So Asians,
The Sangha is the monastic community.
But I heard a teacher,
I can't remember her name now,
And she said,
Oh,
What you call Sangha,
That's not what we call Sangha.
What you call Sangha is a congregation,
Like the Christian term in a church.
And I thought,
Yeah,
That's completely right.
That is how we use it.
We use it as,
You know,
We all come together as if we are the community,
But we're not using it according to the Asian terms.
So it's sort of misappropriation in some ways.
We're not using it correctly in that way.
This is a really good point because when I,
When I was in the monastery for two weeks and it's a Thai forest tradition and they talk about Sangha and,
You know,
I've had the kind of the Western watered down notions of it too.
I think it has different meanings and different layers for other people.
I think it,
Yeah,
It can mean just the monastic community.
And I don't even know if the Anagarikas or the novices are technically included.
I still have to learn that.
So I don't know if it's,
But obviously it applies to the fully ordained bhikkhus,
Right?
That,
However,
You know,
It's sometimes I think if I'm getting this right,
It was used in the context of the,
Everybody that was involved there.
But it wasn't used as much of that as just the monastics.
And to take it one step further,
I've heard to Sangha also,
I mean,
Is,
Well,
Is just kind of the entire,
Just a spiritual community,
Right?
Really loosely defined.
But the one that I really want to point out is the inner Sangha.
And this could be a total distortion,
But I've heard this mentioned and it resonated with me as,
Well,
How does that express on the inner?
When we're talking about Sangha here,
It's all expressed outerly,
But within it talks about was this notion of Kalyanamita,
Spiritual friendship,
But then also how our heart is,
You know,
How the chitta is,
How we're touched by what goes on and how we can bring forth from the inside this kind of awake awareness,
This loving awareness,
This connection that's commonly associated with spiritual friends,
Spiritual community.
And the,
Yeah,
From the,
But from the inside out instead of from the outside in.
So the inner version of that.
Yeah.
And then the topic you were talking about before that was,
Is it Dukkha?
Or was it?
No,
Bodhi.
Bodhi.
So yeah,
In wisdom,
This,
The seeing clearly is one thing that it's so important and that I completely overlooked.
So I'm not seeing that clearly,
Right?
It's seeing things as they more as they are instead of how we want them to be.
So you know,
This,
This kind of this alignment with the importance of that,
That's,
That's closer to truth to me instead of what I want things to be,
How they actually are and not denying that or pretending it's not that way.
But then once I can see more of how it actually is,
Then I can better respond to it.
Right.
And also set aspirations around where I,
You know,
How I'd like to interact with it and these kinds of things I can aspire to.
But if I'm not seeing something clearly,
It's,
It's,
It's a really hard going to do anything else really I feel.
And people,
I don't think people see the importance of that.
They just like to live more in a dream world.
You know,
And I don't know.
Not to discredit that,
But in this,
This comes around waking up as well.
So I thought that was a really important point to highlight around this as well.
Yeah.
I mean,
But I,
I sort of feel like we're always in a dream.
And it,
You know,
I guess until we're a Buddha,
We're always in that dream.
We're always caught in that seduction,
You know.
Yeah.
But we were talking about translation,
The impact.
And I think,
So there is a big Western cultural overlay that meditation is all pared back,
That it's somehow separated from the,
The people who do it.
And of course,
The people who practice meditation are fully embedded in that,
That there's somehow an impartiality.
Now here in Australia,
We've,
We've had a big thing in the last couple of days.
One of our really fantastic journalists has resigned.
He's Aboriginal.
And he said,
I'm just tired of the racial torrent.
So my family,
I have to protect my family.
So I'm going to just come offline.
And one of the commentators was saying,
You know,
The thing about journalism is it's about impartiality.
This is the point of journalism is to be impartial.
And I think in Buddhism as well,
There's this idea that somehow each person,
We're supposed to be impartial.
But we are there,
In there,
In the mix with our blind spots of culture that we come.
So you're a guy,
You're white,
You're middle class,
You're American,
You've got that cultural thing that you don't really know how much you're in that.
And I'm white,
And I'm a woman,
And I'm middle class,
And I'm from Australia,
And I've lived in a couple of different countries.
And so I also have a particular cultural perspective.
And so we,
These kind of our cultures,
We don't know how much we don't know.
So these are good points.
I think the impartial thing is something,
Speaking of misinterpreting words,
That I think is a real key thing to understand around this.
But I wanted to pick up real quick on the dreamlike nature of reality.
And yes,
You know,
It is,
I think that's the best way to describe,
You know,
What this is or isn't,
Because saying it's not real,
To me,
Isn't helpful.
I mean,
That can be helpful sometimes,
But that's why I tell people,
If you think that tree's not real,
Just go run into it at full speed and tell me it's not real,
Right?
Okay,
So there's a type of reality to it,
Right?
But a dreamlike nature,
It's more like what we once,
You know,
Waking up from a dream,
It seems so real,
Right?
Like it's this,
This is,
I can't believe,
You know,
This is this and this.
Then we wake up and it's like,
Wait,
What happened?
That's completely gone.
That was just a fabrication of whatever,
You know?
And so that's why I like this notion of waking up,
Even though it's become kind of cliche.
And yes,
It is.
And I feel it's just as important to set an aspiration to wake up though,
Instead of just writing it off as completely a daunting task that,
You know,
We'll never achieve in eons and eons,
Which may be the case.
But I feel the more we can set an aspiration to wake up,
The more we can,
The more helpful it may be to actually be that way,
To have more degrees of awakening.
Yeah.
And so if you want to comment on that maybe,
And then this,
And then I would ask you,
Well,
What is,
What is this notion of impartial?
What do you mean by that?
Yeah.
Because that's a really key here.
Yeah.
So what is,
What is impartial?
Well,
It's,
It's that I'm not bothered.
I'm seeing the world through a distance and my emotional landscape,
It chimes in with my gut reaction,
Jonathan Haidt.
So I listened to a talk recently with,
Or I watched it online with Jonathan Haidt.
Do you know his work?
He's a psychologist.
It sounds familiar,
But not particularly.
I'm pretty sure he's a meditation practitioner.
And,
And he said,
People don't do it.
People,
What people do is their,
Has as their ethical landscape is their gut instinct.
It just feels wrong.
And that's their ethical landscape.
And then we justify it and we go,
Yeah,
Because it's in the Bible or it's in,
In the teachings or it's in this or yeah,
But,
But not really because of that.
You know,
You might,
Some of the more complex topics.
So I thought that was really interesting.
I feel like I've missed one of your questions there.
What was it?
Oh,
So yeah.
What is indifferent?
And then also,
So is he saying that we should ignore our gut feelings or that we shouldn't base ethics on them or what,
What does he mean by that?
I get how he says that they can be justified with,
You know,
Religious things after the fact.
I get that.
So he's really saying when you're speaking with someone and saying,
And,
And thinking about ethics,
Why,
Why do you do that?
Then we have to include sort of our gut instinct in the picture that it's not part of the reaction.
It's not part,
It's,
It's included in,
In our conversation.
That is,
We can never not be impartial.
Like we can never,
We can never be impartial.
That's what I'm saying.
We are always partial.
If you like,
We always have a position.
We just don't realize it.
And yeah,
So,
So that's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
This is,
This is really important,
Especially,
And this ties back to what we were talking about earlier,
How some people say it's all about wisdom,
But you know,
In the Buddhist teachings,
Right?
It's,
It's Sila,
Samadhi,
Panya.
And so Sila is the ethics and Samadhi is the meditation practices.
And then Panya,
Prajna and Sansra is wisdom.
And so it's these three things that we're,
We're cultivating.
And yeah,
That,
That's right.
Yeah,
That,
That's right.
The gut instinct or the gut feelings and everybody has an agenda.
I have an agenda.
That's as soon as we can realize that,
That we all have an agenda.
If we,
If you don't,
Then you're just probably a slimy blob on the couch.
And then even then you have an agenda to,
To,
To,
To,
I don't know,
Slimy,
Yeah.
You know,
To maintain my sliminess or whatever,
But yeah,
It's,
It's a really good point.
And so with that known,
What is the best agenda we can have?
You know,
What I think,
That's where I look at it.
Yeah.
And being open-minded I think is,
Is really key to all this because if I'm,
If I'm not open and willing to consider something else,
Especially something I don't really agree with or don't even find value in,
Then I at least need to be open-minded to it because once I'm shut down,
Then there's really no room for growth or change or,
Or anything to even consider anything.
So it's just like a completely shut down thing,
Closed down thing.
And there's really no opportunity for growth or significant,
Um,
Skillful change at that point.
So that's why it's,
And that's why there's this open inquiry,
This doctrine of open inquiry to looking into things,
Investigating things,
Finding out things.
And the one way,
The only really way to do that is have an open mind and listen and hear.
Yeah.
And,
And I think it's not only about growth,
But it's,
To me,
You know,
I've,
I've long pondered what is love?
You know,
What,
What is it that when we feel love,
What does that mean?
And you love ice cream,
Right?
Well,
I think it's that I,
I feel that when I'm with someone,
They really get what I'm talking about.
They care about,
They have taken pains to understand and what it is that I care about.
And they've taken on board something that is important to me.
So even with somebody who is very against me,
So to speak,
Or who has very different ideas to me,
To me,
It's not so much about growth,
But about feeling that I am reaching them in a way that they can feel that they are loved.
So to me,
That's,
That's the dhamma.
And to stop,
To stop.
So my habit is to shut down the mind.
So how do I not shut down the body and mind?
So that's it.
Yeah.
Oops.
It's really beautiful,
Wendy.
One of the best definitions I heard,
And it's tricky because it seems like the more I talk about love,
The less of a service it does it just because of me.
And,
You know,
But the,
One of the best definitions I've heard of it is love demonstrates,
It's a demonstration,
Not an explanation.
So love demonstrates.
And it's a tricky word because,
You know,
I love ice cream.
Oh,
I love to do this.
It's kind of been polluted a little bit,
But those who really find it of value,
They love it.
They tune into what the,
The,
The,
The,
The,
What's really behind that word and the,
The,
The useful part of that word,
The,
You know,
Where it really touches something deep inside and stirs.
And then that's where these,
Um,
Notion,
What I'm talking about,
It's a demonstration.
And if that,
It doesn't have to be an outwardly thing either,
Like Wendy's talking about,
It's just kind of being seen and known and,
And touched.
And,
Uh,
Yeah,
It's,
Uh,
It's a really,
It's,
It's a good one because it doesn't come that natural to me,
You know?
And then,
And then especially in like a semi-public forum like this,
You know,
It's like,
Oh,
Okay.
Is my authentic,
You know,
Is authentic,
Authenticity being questioned here?
You know,
What about these do just a typical red blooded male show love differently,
You know,
In private and public and around certain situations than others.
And,
But I,
At the end of the day,
It's just,
I think it's just tuning into the heart and we just,
We just,
We kind of know where we don't know,
You know,
If,
If,
If this is being expressed or not and,
And,
And not to beat myself up either when,
When I'm not at the levels that I want to be around it.
Right.
Or yeah.
And I don't even know if it can,
It's,
It's one of these,
And this is where I'm trying to find words for this.
I really find the Brahma Vihara is very helpful for this because then it's just like,
Okay,
Now I know what you're talking about.
There's,
There's,
There's compassion,
Acknowledging pain,
Wanting it to release,
You know,
There's this kindness,
A well-wishing there's this,
This,
This being happy for other people's happiness,
Rejoicing,
You know,
Feeding on that instead of all the other crappy food the world offers us to feed on,
You know?
And then this equanimity,
This,
This,
This notion of,
You know,
I,
I care deeply,
But I don't need to get entangled in this right now.
It's not going to do me or the other person any good.
They need to make their own choices in life.
Doesn't mean that I don't deeply care,
You know,
And this,
This,
This kind of more grandparently love and it's,
It really is a,
Yeah.
So it's,
I don't,
I don't know.
I love people talking about love.
I just,
I just kind of fall short when I try to talk about it a lot of times,
Perhaps.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I,
I've been contemplating a lot.
So I started the project when I was about eight.
So it's been,
I'm not eight anymore.
So there's a couple of decades between then and now for sure.
Yeah.
And then just the,
The artists that we have,
You know,
In,
In,
In types of music and,
And,
And painting.
And so there's,
There's a few things that are really beautiful displays of this,
But there just seems so much pain associated,
Associated around love.
And we talked about,
You know,
These different types.
There's a,
It's a familial love,
A friendly love,
You know,
There's a romantic love,
Friendly love,
And then there's a,
Like this highest unconditional love and it's all these different flavors of it.
And yeah,
I,
I think,
So it's interesting and then it ties into,
That's what the Dharma is about.
And this is,
This is where it turns into Kalyanamita,
I feel,
You know,
This,
This spiritual friendship,
This,
This connection between folks on the path.
And that's what it's all about.
The Buddha said that was the entirety of the path.
Yeah.
How are we relating to other people?
You know,
That,
That is kind of what I,
To me,
That's what I feel is,
Am,
Am I being sincere to myself?
Am I being sincere to the other person?
Am I shutting myself down to myself?
So I was,
As I was listening to you before,
I was aware of kind of this,
We,
We have a mind,
There's,
There's a part of the mind that's very judging and there's the part of the mind that is judged.
And it is,
It is difficult to,
It's when we fall short,
You know,
Of our ideal.
But that is also caught in this idea.
I think there is something in the West,
And I don't know whether it's different in other cultures.
It's not that I think other cultures are different.
It's just that I actually don't know enough about other cultures.
But there is something about,
I think,
I think there's something about the individualist perspective,
Which says,
Unless,
So I have an idea of myself,
And unless I live up to that,
Then I'm not able to be included in society.
I'm not worthy of being part of society.
And to me,
Love in meta kind of way is,
Is that bridging that sense of disconnection.
It really is.
And it's this recognition that we talked about almost kind of blame earlier,
The Buddhist said,
The bliss of blamelessness.
Yeah,
I know.
And I,
Yeah,
That's,
That's,
It's so then,
But I find myself falling back into blaming Yeah.
Time and time again,
Then,
But then I touch into where there doesn't really need to be blame assigned a lot of times,
You know,
And it's so blissful in a way when there's no blame.
Now,
That doesn't mean that there are wrongs in the world and that people should be held accountable for the action.
That's not what I'm saying.
It's like,
You know,
Does there need to be like a person created to blame either be it me as a person or someone else's a person,
You know,
Things are in full,
I know there's causes and conditions to everything is,
You know,
I'll just ask the question,
Where is it helpful and what is it not to,
To create,
You know,
This,
Someone did that to me or someone else and then they're wrong and I'm right.
And then,
You know,
So it opens up a huge can of worms.
It's just like,
Well,
I like to look at remedy and resolve around these things instead of just justice and judgment.
And,
And it's tricky too,
Because we need this not to confuse judgment with discernment.
So there's this faculty of the,
The heart and mind that,
That is served very well by discerning and knowing one thing from the other,
Knowing how to be with something,
How not to be,
You know,
How to respond to something,
How not to respond.
Yeah.
And,
But this,
This,
This love of,
Of Metta and the sense of belonging.
Yeah.
It's like,
It's so helpful,
Especially for the sense of connection.
And it was really important to me at a time in my practice,
But now it's just almost like,
I don't know how to disconnect.
There's the opposite where I just went to unplug for a little bit or disconnect from things.
It's just like,
Well,
Where can I find some refuge from all this over-connection almost,
You know?
And then when we're connected almost to the wrong things,
You know,
Things that,
That don't help us and other people.
And where is the true heart connections that,
That are really beneficial,
That really deeply nourish us and others.
I think that's,
That that's the sense of belonging we need.
And we can get that in nature,
Especially we can get it within ourselves too.
And I think the more we can give that to ourselves,
The more able we're able to find that sense of belonging among others too.
And so if,
I know that's a lot,
But I want to get into then how this goes into this definition of helplessness of anatta instead of not-self.
So I wanted to kind of lay that out briefly,
But I want to give you a chance to respond to this and then maybe we'll go into anicca dukkha anatta in another way.
Just a heads up,
We've got 10 minutes.
Yeah.
So my feeling about anicca dukkha and anatta,
Or anatta,
So no-self,
Is it's one of those things that you get when you're in that space,
But the minute you come out of that space,
You kind of can't get it.
It's,
It's,
It's hard that one.
And the same with impermanence.
I'm not sure I've ever felt myself to be within a space that feels timeless.
Yep.
And that's what this,
This,
This guy is saying that those are actually wrong interpretations.
So anicca was conflated with the Sanskrit word that's,
It looks similar,
But it's not the same.
And that's because everybody knows everything's impermanent,
Right?
I doubt there's hardly anybody that knows that on a cognitive level,
But then that doesn't,
That's not,
I mean,
If that's supposed to help us get enlightened,
There would be,
It seems like there would be a lot more people enlightened in the same way with anatta.
It was,
It was another trend.
I was confused with this word no-self,
But okay.
So what he's saying is that,
Okay,
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There's unhealthy strategies,
You know,
Maybe like breaking the law or getting in,
You know,
Doing questionable things to try to get ahead,
To climb the ladder at the expense of others because I feel helpless and I don't know what to do.
So just to kind of,
And then this is where our meditation practice to bring it back into meditation,
Can really see this moment by moment when,
When,
You know,
Training the mind,
Seeing the mind the way it does,
Reviewing things that are alive,
Seeing things differently,
Having space to open up to,
To see this process in action and really deeply embed it in the body and know it from the body.
Yeah,
I think that's definitely,
I'm just sort of looking at the website here about,
You know,
For impermanence,
I do one and Ani Yata,
I didn't even know.
So there you go.
So,
Yeah,
It's just interesting.
I have not,
Anatta is not no self or not self.
It's,
Yeah,
It's Anatma,
Yeah.
It's huge.
This is a huge revelation because we've been in Buddhist communities,
We've not,
I'm not saying that stuff's wrong.
It's just like,
Well,
Where was this information?
I'm so grateful this information's come up.
And so it can be,
You know,
Interwoven into the mix to explore and look at too,
Because it just,
It resonates so well with me,
You know,
This way of knowing it.
And it makes sense with all the translation challenges and all this.
So yeah,
I definitely think it's worth a wider audience in looking at within the Buddhist communities,
I feel.
And even if you're not,
Because I don't still,
I don't consider myself Buddhist.
It just,
It just makes really,
Makes a lot of sense.
It seems fairly skillful here.
Yeah.
I mean,
You have to be fixed in order to be a Buddhist.
You have to be what?
Fixed.
You have to be static.
That's right.
Yeah.
And just to me,
It's not an ism.
To me,
What those teachings were is some very loving,
Kind,
Caring,
Wise being said,
Oh,
This is what I found out.
Check it out for yourself.
You know,
Don't believe me.
You have to do it.
You have to check into it for yourself.
And if it's not,
You know,
Up to snuff,
Then drop it and do something else.
Yeah.
And this is a translation.
So my understanding about what it was,
What,
It's just when Westerners arrived in Asian countries and they said,
Well,
What is this?
And they'd say,
It's the Dharma.
Well,
Who's the person?
Buddha.
Okay.
So therefore it's Buddhism because you needed to contrast it with Christianity or Islam or Judaism.
So it's again,
A poor translation.
Yeah.
It has nothing to do with religion as far as I'm concerned.
You know,
It's a,
To me,
The way I look at it,
It's a deep investigation into reality,
The most skillful ways possible.
You know,
The best way to going about that and the best way of going about that is kind of with a kind,
Open heart,
You know,
To view and respond to reality of why we're investigating what is this dreamlike nature that we're in and how do we see it,
How we best see it and how do we best respond to it,
You know,
For our own happiness and for the happiness of everyone around us and all beings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean,
What it does say,
So I was raised in a family where I had to get the correct answer.
And if you didn't have the correct answer,
You know,
It was a lesson in humiliation.
So what I've,
What I have learned with the Dharma has been that there is no correct answer.
There is no definitive correct answer for everything.
And it's very culturally overlaid.
There's no,
Everyone is subjective except me.
So everyone is subjective.
Yeah,
That it's,
That we are never not within,
I guess,
The Dharma at some level,
But separate from it as well.
This is a really good point because there is truth.
There's this saying that,
And I talked to Ajahn Amaro about this,
Whatever we think the truth is,
It's always other than that.
So it's always kind of elusive.
It's there,
But it's just like,
Okay,
You know,
It's like we can't talk in absolute truths,
But that doesn't mean that to me,
That doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist.
Absolute truth doesn't exist.
It's just not formatted for our everyday life as far as a cut and dry definitive thing,
As far as the ultimate truth.
Now there's things that are,
Yeah,
Two plus two still equals four.
In a relative,
Yeah,
That's right.
Yeah.
So it's right.
It's to bring this dynamic into and investigate it and see what is this all about.
Yeah.
Well,
I think coming up,
We've got two minutes to go.
So what final wise words from Josh coming in from Cardigan in Wales.
And I am wearing a cardigan,
So I am very happy about that.
The old joke,
I forgot what movie it was,
The cop was pull over,
Pull over.
Oh,
Thanks for noticing,
But it's actually a cardigan.
Oh,
I see.
Okay.
Yeah.
The wisdom app crashed.
It said something went wrong.
So I'm interested in seeing how much that went around.
And thanks for anyone that joined us on the YouTube live and on wisdom and enjoy if you're listening to this later too.
Now the next month,
Since I'm going to be at monastery,
I don't know for sure if I'll be more than likely won't be able to do one next month.
So it'll have to be,
You know,
At least until probably mid July or later July.
And we may or may not catch up for June one.
We'll see.
But if again,
Anybody that has questions,
Please go right in any ideas,
Comments.
It's good,
Wendy.
Yeah,
I think we're booked in for Thursday the 29th,
Australian time and UK time.
But I think it's a different day if it's the US or something.
So yeah,
Thursday the 29th,
We're booked in.
So see if that comes to anything.
Otherwise,
We'll do it another day and we'll figure it all out as we go on the fly as per usual with technical equipment that may or may not work.
Yeah,
That's right.
And I plan to be back in Denmark for that one.
So that's the plan 29th.
And I've got what's it 9am British summertime for that which will be 10 central or 10 central European,
I guess.
So I've got that at 4pm here and I'd be happy to move that to an hour later.
Oh,
No,
No,
Let's just I'll just I'll adjust it to 4pm Brisbane time then.
No,
It's actually better for me to move it to 5.
30.
So I'm going to send it to a new time.
And we'll just do that on that Thursday,
The 29th of June.
Yes,
There's no no no June I'm going to be I'm sorry.
I'm looking at the wrong one here.
No,
June I'm going to be in I'm going to be in the monastery.
So I my bad.
No,
You didn't tell me and I kept it in there.
All right,
So we'll go into July the 27th and I'll move it to 5.
30.
Okay,
So so 5.
30 July 27th Brisbane time as of now.
There we are.
We figured it out.
All right,
Josh,
Have a great month.
Enjoy monastic life.
How beautiful is that?
Well,
I'm about to find out right?
Beautiful.
It's wonderful.
All right,
Wendy.
Good to chat.
Take care.
Be well.
Bye.
Bye now.
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