Eight Worldly Winds | Mindful Q&A #30

In this thirtieth installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion we focus on the Eight Vicissitudes or Worldly Winds. I sometimes consider these as somewhat a psychology class crash course. While these don't often seem to have a direct connection with formal meditation practices they are so interwoven into nearly every aspect of our lives in this world that their residues can easily carry over onto the cushion while the benefits from our practice naturally allow us to more skillfully navigate, meet and respond to gain and loss, pleasure and pain, praise and blame, fame and disrepute.

Transcript

Hey Wholeness Wendy,

What's going on?

Hello.

I'm very grateful to have you here.

This is our 30th one that we're doing today and it's called the Eight Vicissitudes or Worldly Winds and I know that's a big word but I'll just go ahead and read the little description I have here.

In this 30th installment of the ongoing live series with Wendy Nash inquiring into meditation practice on and off the cushion,

We plan to focus on the eight vicissitudes of worldly winds.

I sometimes consider these as somewhat a psychology crash course.

While these don't often seem to have a direct connection with formal meditation practices,

They are so interwoven into nearly every aspect of our lives in this world that their residues can easily carry over onto the cushion while the benefits from our practice naturally allow us to more skillfully navigate,

Meet,

And respond to gain and loss,

Pleasure and pain,

Praise and blame,

Fame and disrepute.

Okay,

So I thought maybe we could mention these kind of in general first or maybe real briefly what to say about them all then just dive into them and then maybe at the end just then once we have dived into them what can we say about them in general overall too.

So and if you'll give me just one moment,

I forgot to turn on the lights here so I'm going to make Wendy's screen maybe big when she talks.

No,

You've gone the other way around.

I've gone the other way.

I'm small.

I know what happened,

I don't know.

I should get this text up.

Well,

Praise and blame,

Fame and disgrace,

Aren't we just talking about the worldly winds?

We're right here.

Exactly,

Exactly.

That's what this is.

Yeah,

That's what this is so.

You should have got it right,

Josh.

You should have got it right,

You know.

If only you had,

If only this,

If only that,

You know all these little ways that we undermine everything.

So let's go into it.

So I just want to bring up the vicissitudes here.

So let's go into vicissitude.

I mean for me a vicissitude is a sort of a minor turbulence that's irritating or something.

The vicissitudes are the ups and downs of life.

That's what I remember from my life and all the rest.

So it's a funny word.

It's so many of the words that we have in Buddhism come from this Victorian era and it,

I think,

The translations,

Yes.

Yeah,

The translations.

So I think the,

It's like the life's ups and downs basically and it can be defined,

Sort of divided into four rough pivots.

So gain and loss.

What did you get?

What did you lose?

Pleasure and pain.

What's comfortable?

What's pleasant?

What's unpleasant?

Praise and blame.

Oh,

I think you're amazing,

Josh.

In fact,

I did that once in a,

You know,

Insight dialogue retreat and I was going,

We had to just go praise and blame and just,

And I just went to my partner,

It's a dyad,

And I said,

Oh wow,

Gee,

Yeah,

That's quite a nice t-shirt you've got going on.

I got great teeth.

And he was like,

I could see him all brainy.

And then he said,

Oh,

You're doing praise.

Can I get your number?

And I was like,

No,

You have a girlfriend.

No.

But he was like really hooked by all that praise.

I mean,

We were doing praise actually in the class and then he was like,

Oh wow,

She thinks I'm hot.

Let's,

Let's catch up.

I was like,

No.

This is really funny.

So that's exactly what happens with praise.

And then blame is exactly what before it's like,

Well,

Josh,

You know,

You should have got this organized.

You should be better at this.

Why don't you know the tech by now?

And then there's fame and disrepute or fame and disgrace.

And that's like,

I actually had this in my own little world recently,

A bit of a misunderstanding at the gym.

And now I am,

They don't want to talk to me,

They don't have anything to do with me.

They're like,

Yep,

You can go.

I'm,

I'm done.

So it's like,

Oh,

That's,

I was fine.

Fame,

Like they were,

I was in the good books.

Now it's all over Red Rover.

So,

And when I reached out to them to go,

Can we talk about it?

Radio silence.

So this is a really sort of perfect example of fame and disrepute in ordinary life,

Fame and disgrace.

We're not talking about,

You know,

Crazy sort of situations or people,

You know,

Famous people.

We're talking about boring people that we have to deal with on a daily basis.

So what do you reckon about that,

Josh?

That's a really good point with the fame and ill repute,

Because a lot of people think,

Well,

I can't relate to that because I'm not famous.

That's a beautiful example.

If I may,

I might,

I just want to go in here,

This word vicissitude,

I actually,

I was reflecting on this this morning,

How,

You know,

The English language actually has way more possibility than what we're used to now in everyday life.

I mean,

I'm not advocating us going around talking like Shakespeare plays and getting Shakespeare dramas and comedies right here or living in a postmodern novel where everything's all flowery language all the time.

And at the same time,

Our vocabulary,

I mean,

You look at the Western TV news and it's on the level of like a fifth grader,

Fourth grader,

You know,

It's really dumbed down.

So in a way,

Yeah,

There's a time and place for these things,

And then there's not.

But anyway,

So vicissitude,

I'm just going to read the definition here.

A change or variation,

An economy vulnerable to the vicissitudes of the oil market.

That's the example sentence,

A change of variation.

Number two,

A usually unforeseen change in circumstances or experience that affects one's life,

Especially in a trying way.

A difficulty is a synonym.

The vicissitudes of childhood.

And number three,

The quality of being changeable,

Mutability,

The vicissitude of fortune.

And I really resonate with this worldly winds too,

Because what do we think of when we think of winds,

You know,

They just blow people around,

They blow things around.

Really,

It's hard to control them.

A lot of people don't know when they're coming or how strong they'll be,

How regular they'll be,

You know,

What kind of effect they'll have.

Although,

You know,

Sailing,

Some people take these and use them to their advantage.

So that's kind of an interesting metaphor too.

But as far as the specifics here,

Or we'll start with generalities,

I think these are what drives and motivates most people in the world,

Especially if they don't have a spiritual,

I mean,

We're all subject to them,

Of course.

But if we don't have any kind of spiritual practice or any kind of training that we're doing beyond just the ways of the world,

Then these pretty much dominate people's behavior,

I would say.

You know,

We just look at the praise and blame,

The nice colorful thing that Wendy talked about here.

And yeah,

For this one,

I can see the power of this,

You know,

And me used to being a charmer,

I could get a lot of ways with just scanning people.

I mean,

This is almost sociopathic,

Some people can use this as.

You can scan people and you can look at their strengths and weaknesses,

And then you can tailor a compliment,

You know,

That's really kind of go straight to their heart,

Or maybe push their buttons and things,

Especially on blame.

And then with the intent,

Oh,

How can I butter this person up to get what I want,

You know?

Now that's the unwholesome part of praise.

Now there can actually be compliments that can support wholesome qualities,

I feel,

You know.

The tricky thing with this one is that people,

They can feel so good about it when it's really authentic that they start reinforcing habit patterns around it,

Where they don't want to deal with anything other than that.

And in fact,

They start seeking it out from outside themselves.

They start doing things in order to get praise from other people.

You know,

This is when it can kind of turn into a big issue.

Some people live to please others,

And some people live to get praise,

You know,

These accolades and awards and social standing,

Which goes into fame as well.

And yeah,

So that's what to say about that.

Now the blame is a whole other one.

Like,

What am I doing to avoid blame too,

Instead of taking responsibility as well?

But the Buddha talked about the bliss of blamelessness.

I don't think I need to go into examples.

I want to touch on Wendy's other example here of the fame and ill repute.

Yeah,

These are things where we thought we had some kind of standing in people's opinions of us,

And then something happens,

And then,

No,

They want to outcast us and throw us out.

And then what does that lead to,

You know?

A lot of times it's bitterness.

I know when people kind of shun me like that,

Sometimes it leads to bitterness,

Which is not that helpful either.

Or like,

In worst cases,

Revenge,

Trying to kind of one-up them or do whatever I can.

We see whole industries now,

I mean,

This is where it's really apparent is in the social media space,

Because anybody that's just,

There can be social media famous,

But like in real life,

Nobody really even knows them or pays attention to them.

That's one interesting phenomenon.

There's whole industries about reputation management,

Going in and rebuilding people's reputations after a journalist or whatever,

And the social control of social media shaming,

You know,

Bullying online.

I mean,

This is a kind of soft control,

And credit scores are another one.

In the West,

You know,

We don't need this hard lockdown like some of the eastern countries do with making sure they don't say anything,

You know,

That's against the stream or whatever,

Against the current government policies.

People can be taken out on social media these days.

If their finances aren't in order,

Then they're very limited,

I think,

In a lot of the things they can do.

But,

Oh,

I think I've said enough on this.

Maybe we should touch more in detail on,

Let's see,

I'm sure you have plenty to say on this too,

And one of the other ones as well.

Yeah,

Jump in here.

All right,

So just a couple of things.

We have somebody listening,

Sagar,

And I don't know,

It says Sagar or Sager,

7CN,

Whatever that means.

Hi,

Nice to,

And a little clapping hands.

Thank you very much.

Nice to see you,

Or see that you are here,

That's lovely.

And I also,

Regarding the word vicissitude,

I'm a great believer in the etymology of a word,

Because that really helps you drill down to what does the word actually mean.

So it comes from the old French,

And it means change,

Interchange or alternation.

So,

As in changeably,

On the other hand,

In turns.

So there you are,

It's a turn or a change.

So to bend,

To,

I don't know whether it's to,

It must be to wind.

So to bend or wind.

So there you are.

So,

So to change from one state to another.

That's brilliant,

Yes,

Yes.

So I think that's really useful to look at that.

And just looking through more of this,

Where I'm going through it,

That's basically it.

So I think of a flag wrapped around a flagpole after it's been blown around,

Our clothes on the clothesline can twist or turn from the wind.

Yeah.

All right.

Something blowing around the wind.

Yeah.

And we have the fantastic Mrs.

Reid again.

So hi,

Josh,

Hi,

Wendy.

This is very nice.

And I wanted to apologise to Mrs.

Reid,

Because last time I was on the wrong tab,

And I didn't see your comments.

So I was like,

Oh,

She's gone,

I'm really sorry.

So I felt really bad about that.

See,

There you are,

I have my loss of reputation at stake here with Mrs.

Reid,

She might think I'm really,

Really a rude person.

So this is disgrace.

And then I have internalised that.

Now,

You might make light of that.

But I was going,

No,

I don't want to do that.

I don't want to be held in a bad book.

She might never come back.

Might be like the gym where I'm cast out and into the oubliette,

You know.

So yeah,

So I just put in that about the vicissitudes.

So is there a particular one that I can I tell you my great story about I think it was praise and blame is the most this is this is a really,

Really good example.

So I'm glad you're Mrs.

Reid that you're okay with us.

That's great.

So I was my French is a little bit rusty,

But it's so it's but I was helped I was in France a few years ago.

And there was an Australian monk there called Buntis Sajato,

Who I know.

And I was on a retreat with him.

Prolific translator,

By the way.

Prolific.

And so yeah,

He's very,

Very translated.

But I was going from English into French.

And so I was helping him out.

And then he left and a nun came.

And so I was helping with that.

And at the end of the retreat,

This woman came up to me in French and she said,

Oh,

You were amazing.

You were so wonderful and helpful and supportive.

And you were like the White Queen of Spain.

And I'm going,

White Queen of Spain,

Who is this person?

And I was really caught in this.

Who's this White Queen of Spain?

I've never heard of the White Queen of Spain.

And I don't know if there's a White Queen of Spain and whether I've misunderstood,

But there you go.

And then I was sort of still there and she was very effusive and I was just,

Just amazing.

Like she was a very exuberant character,

Just a beautiful,

Like exuberant person.

And then she left and I was just standing there going,

Who is the White Queen of Spain?

And somebody comes up to me and she goes,

Oh,

Didn't you think you owned the place?

You were here,

You were there,

You were everywhere.

Oh my goodness,

You just absolutely took over the place.

It was so interesting because those two people said exactly the same thing,

But one said,

I was really helpful and supportive.

And the other one said,

I just owned the place like it was mine.

Exactly the same behaviors and a really good example of praise and blame.

Yeah,

That's,

That's amazing.

You know how,

Yeah,

It's how the interpretation of that,

You know,

And I think it comes down to people's preferences.

A lot of times if they see something,

If they,

They're like,

Maybe like me,

That was more anti-authoritarian at some point,

They might look at that and say,

Well,

That's oppressive.

You know,

Why didn't you share more responsibility and power?

But the other person's like,

Wow,

Now someone else can take care of this.

So I didn't have to worry about that.

And I can,

So this is why I find it so important to kind of weigh the pros and cons and,

And,

And look at things as objectively as we can and be honest and kind about it,

You know,

And really look at my own preferences.

And,

And of course how pleasant or unpleasant I'm viewing things.

Cause when that comes up,

You know,

How,

How we interpret things is,

Or how things land as pleasant or unpleasant are going to have a lot to do with this as well.

And I just want to mention about the,

And,

And Mrs.

Reed too.

And another thing we do sometimes is we have something happens in the,

Because we don't have all the information,

We start filling in the gaps,

Right?

I saw this so well on my retreat and I talked about this,

But with Ms.

Reed,

She oftentimes she just,

She listens to everything,

Even if she doesn't show up live and then comments on the YouTube comments.

So she's really,

Really engaged and yeah,

Has been continuously so pretty much.

And I really appreciate that.

And so then,

But where Wendy's coming is,

You know,

Is,

Is that she wants to,

You know,

Be there and we don't want to be interpreted in a wrong way.

We want to be understood,

Right?

And so when there's kind of a,

Either a miscommunication or a what's being perceived as maybe falling short,

Then we want to go and correct that.

And,

You know,

Like Wendy and I,

We,

We do that a lot.

And some people might think,

Oh,

That's,

You know,

That's too much or maybe going overboard.

It really wasn't that big a deal.

And so these are kind of personality traits that some people have,

You know,

And again,

All these have pros and cons too,

You know,

We could easily just blow it off or something like that.

But to,

To actually care,

To take the extra step,

To start,

You know,

Investigating of,

You know,

What may have happened or,

You know,

What didn't happen.

And so these are these interesting things too,

To deal with an internet land when we're not really face to face with someone where we can ask and fill in the gaps with what's going on.

So we do,

We do our best sometimes to,

You know,

To have this and I could be totally wrong too,

With my assessment of what's going on there as well.

So yeah,

To,

At the end of the day,

It's,

It's,

And even when we're in the same room with someone or face to face or whatever,

We still can't control how they interpret what we say,

You know?

I'm responsible for what I say and the intent I have it,

But I can't control how the other person takes it and make sure they get it exactly how I want it to say too.

So yeah,

We've talked about this as well.

Yeah.

So I just want to do a couple of things.

One is Mrs.

Reed said,

Yeah,

Being authentic is our greatest tool and a little,

Is that a thank you that I think that's that symbol.

I'm never quite sure what that means,

But I think that's what that means.

The pray,

The pray,

Right?

Yeah.

Pray is pray.

Anjali,

Anjali Mudra or yeah.

Okay.

Appreciate it.

I guess the other thing I want to talk about is the environment is a mirror for us too.

She says it's true.

It's true.

Now I also want to put some caveats in here.

So my husband is,

Goes into work and he's having a really bad time.

He's being bullied at work.

And one of the,

One of his colleagues is casually cruel.

He's just sort of goes,

Yeah,

I'll just be cruel.

Like he,

He's just like that.

And another of his colleagues is actually quite malicious and intentionally malicious.

So I,

I think it's really important to put into place that just because if,

When somebody is being me,

When there is,

There is something about the constancy and the vindictiveness and you can feel that quality of difference.

And I think when you're enlightened,

You might be able to take it all with a bit of a grain of salt,

But I'm not there.

My husband's not there.

And I,

I think it's really important to recognise that we are limited,

That we are not enlightened at this point.

And I spent a long time trying to appease a relative of mine because I was often on the receiving end of unkind comments and a lot of criticism,

Blame,

Excuse me.

And then I realised actually I,

I actually couldn't do that.

So,

So I,

I,

I just want to say that it's true that it's important to say,

I have a responsibility.

But we also have a responsibility to remove ourselves when our body-mind is overwhelmed by the harm that comes our way,

If we can.

You know,

If you are a black person,

An African-American or a coloured person in,

I use that term like black and brown skin,

I meant in that way,

Terminology.

Then,

And you are often on the receiving end of unkind comments,

That's not to say you have to rethink how you understand that.

That is a systemic issue that needs change.

So I just wanted to put that within that caveat that,

That there is,

If there,

You're on the receiving end of sexism or racism or classism or ageism,

These things are true.

And then what do you do with that is another thing.

But I,

I really didn't want to kind of go,

Well,

If you feel bad,

Then that's your problem and you can change it.

I just wanted to put that in the place.

What would you like to add,

Josh?

No,

These are really important points.

As far as the workplace bullying and things go,

Yeah,

It's easy for me to say this in hindsight,

Because I'm not dealing with this anymore every day.

So I just want to,

The most important thing here that Wendy mentioned is the boundaries,

If they're possible,

You know,

So setting these clear boundaries and enforcing them.

Now,

When it comes,

There's some other approaches that I've learned around this too,

But they're not always accessible and that's okay.

So,

And they have to deal more with perception and their considerations here.

So when some,

The casually cruel,

I mean,

That's,

This is,

It reminds me of passive aggressiveness,

Which I have instilled every once in a while,

Of course,

It's challenged with this,

You know,

When I feel hurt and wanted to do a defensive thing,

Then sometimes I'll respond passive aggressively and it's really not okay.

You know,

And sometimes I don't even realize I'm doing it until later,

It had become a habit.

And,

But if we're looking at someone that's casually cruel or just downright,

What was the other term you used for the bully of the other one?

Vindictive.

Vindictive,

Yeah,

That's serious.

So,

So this is,

You know,

Of course the boundaries are the most important thing and it might not apply in a workplace position where you can't really set up so many boundaries and get it.

So in that case,

Sometimes I feel that to use maybe like a keto move,

The same,

That type of energy coming at you,

Now I don't know how to do this,

I have to be an example,

You kind of turn it back and disarm them.

So,

You know,

That's,

That's one thing that people do,

Right?

Without trying to hurt them.

So meeting the same type of energy with the same type of energy,

But not harming it.

So it's easier said than done,

Right?

That's one way.

The,

The,

The other way is to,

Another solution or thing that I've tried out too,

Is it's an energy,

Kind of a war of energy.

So they're coming at that,

You or me with that certain energy they have.

Okay.

So usually the tendency then is either to match that,

Which I don't want to do because that's not helpful.

And then it just adds more of the same type of energy,

But that's kind of what most of us naturally do.

We meet people where they're at and our energy just kind of matches theirs automatically.

If we're not,

Especially if we're not being mindful,

If I'm not being mindful.

So,

So then I can,

I can go into that with this interaction with,

Okay,

What energy do I want to bring here?

And I'm going to have to amp that up,

Rev that up.

So then it becomes like,

Okay,

Then it's a game of energy.

And I'm going to have to really amp up like the loving kindness or compassion,

Whatever I want to bring to it because they're coming at that.

It's,

It's a really kind of dangerous energy.

That's very habitual and very ingrained more than likely.

Right.

So I have to keep building that up and using that and,

And get in that groove too.

So that's challenging as well to do.

That's another option.

The,

The other option I see is actually on the perceptual,

This is what I want to start with is that whatever they're saying about me,

It actually has little to nothing whatsoever to do with me.

It shows me where they're at on their path and actually what's been done to them,

You know?

So in that way,

It can't,

It doesn't mean that it doesn't approve of what they're doing and that the harm that they're causing in the,

The hurtful words that they're saying and their behavior,

Not at all,

Not none whatsoever.

It can,

Instead of me feeling completely maybe victimized by it,

Or maybe not,

Then I can have some kind of different perspective shift and say,

Okay,

This isn't about me at all.

You know,

This is,

This is what's been done to them,

You know?

So it may or may not help it.

So these are just some slight strategies that may or may not apply because it really have to go into the details of what's happening and of course,

Yeah.

So yeah,

Those are some things that come up around it.

Yeah.

So just thinking about a few years ago,

I was working in a place on a temporary assignment and somebody,

The person who I was replacing,

Didn't think I was any good and just talked about me and I never got a job ever again after that.

So I think there are things like,

You know,

Now you have five stars and you have comments and all this side of things and it can really shift how,

How,

How your,

Your livelihood in a real,

In a very real way.

So yeah,

I've never really worked since that time because that person,

That person did that and I think I felt so undermined,

You know,

Undermined in that process.

And yeah,

So it was,

It had real world consequences for me personally and a lot,

Yeah.

So I think these are larger things than we're talking about with Fame and Disgrace and yes,

So all this is true.

So I wanted to put that as a caveat that there are real world consequences and that people are nasty,

Some people are really nasty and this is true.

So with that caveat in place,

A little bit of a container there,

Let's talk about the rest.

So we've got Gain and Loss,

Profit and Deficit,

Acquisition and Deprivation,

Wealth and Poverty.

So would you like to say anything about that?

I would and I just pick up here the,

This,

We look at Yelp reviews,

There's some people that won't even,

Unless a place has a great rating or praise,

They won't even consider it anymore,

You know,

And it really affects people's views and things.

Now,

I will say though that this is,

These are temporary,

Right?

We can hit the lowest of the lows.

We hear so many stories about that and then they rise way to the top and vice versa.

So just because we've been defamed doesn't mean that we're going to not necessarily be able to rise even way above where before and in vice versa,

Somebody could be at the very top and just crash and completely be done the rest of their life when it comes to worldly things.

So I think it's important that these things fluctuate,

Can fluctuate,

They could stay.

So we don't really know the winds of these things.

So the,

I think the point of going into these and pointing these out too is to what is the alternative and to go beyond these and how much are we valuing things in the world,

Worldly ways,

And how much are we valuing things that go beyond worldly ways?

And it doesn't necessarily mean we have to shun all things of the world either,

Right?

It's just what kind of,

What kind of stability can we have in these winds?

Okay,

So now profit,

Gain and loss.

Now,

This is one that the Buddha said to reflect on every day is everything that I hold dear and pleasing to me,

I will be separated from.

This is everything in our lives,

Even our loved ones,

At least temporarily,

If we think about maybe those are into,

Maybe we'll be reunited after this body sheds off somehow,

Some way.

But at least it will,

When it comes to the end of life,

At least temporarily,

Everything we hold dear and love will be taken from us.

And so reflecting on that,

I think brings us into alignment with the truth that loss is an inevitable part of life.

And so when I reflect on that and really let that deep truth sink in,

Then when we do face inevitable loss in our lives,

Be it minor or major,

The pain and the grief is not as devastating in a way,

Right?

Because we are ready in alignment with this deep truth that sometimes devastation can actually help bring out deep inner truths within us.

That's kind of the silver lining of devastation.

If we really reflect on that,

Yeah.

So,

But if we're in alignment with that already,

Then I know in my practice,

I haven't been,

Some of the loss in my life were completely devastating,

But reflecting on that really helps.

Now it doesn't have to get all bummed and party pooper.

Gain,

We're going to experience gain whether we want to or not.

And it's not just monetary gain either.

It could be gain of friendships,

Gain of influence,

Gain of certain properties or objects,

You know,

Possessions,

Gain of good fortune.

Yeah.

So we can gain all kinds of things and lose all kinds of things.

It doesn't necessarily have to be physical or monetary as well.

And yeah,

Whether we want to or not.

So yeah,

I guess the part is what do we do with our gains and how do we view our gains and losses and what do we do with our gains and losses and how do we respond to these things?

And I think one of the things is being generous with our gains,

Right?

And maybe going to friends and other support mechanisms with losses and in reflecting that this is inevitable,

Just like gains are.

So a couple of things.

One is a few years ago,

I was thinking I'd actually had my heart broken quite a lot of times in my life and I was really tired of it.

And I thought,

I just don't want to meet anyone ever again.

And and then I thought,

Well,

I will meet somebody and there will be.

.

.

That will be painful.

If I don't meet somebody,

Well actually I am quite lonely and I.

.

.

And I.

.

.

That is painful.

So whether that person comes into my life or not,

It is painful.

So whether I gain and then lose or now I am just in a place of loss,

That's what I was thinking at the time,

That.

.

.

That has.

.

.

That made me go,

Okay,

So this is going to be.

.

.

It's true,

Chances are I'll outlive him and I think that's still true.

That,

I mean,

Who knows,

I'll ride a bicycle so I might be splattered.

Who knows?

But that.

.

.

Just that is really,

Really true that actually knowing that you.

.

.

Everything has a loss and maybe even you're experiencing loss at the time is helpful.

So I just.

.

.

But that doesn't mean to say that when my husband dies,

You know,

It won't be completely awful.

It will be absolutely,

Truly abominable.

I fully anticipate that.

And that's just how it is because when you love somebody,

That is the nature of that.

When you are close and emotional,

That is just the nature of it.

So that is the loss.

That is.

.

.

That is and we cannot avoid that.

These are really important points,

Especially when it comes to relationship with loss and I was in a similar position,

You know,

And the pain of the one was.

.

.

It was.

.

.

It was.

.

.

I think it was so great that this.

.

.

The kind of unconscious strategy was,

I'm going to stay in loss so I never have to experience the pain of losing again.

So if I just stay here,

Then I'm not going to have to go through that again,

You know.

And so that's.

.

.

That's not very helpful either.

And on the other hand,

Just like Wendy so beautifully said,

I mean,

We're thinking about if we.

.

.

If we do wedding vows,

I've heard these Buddhist wedding vows that just like any other relationship,

This relationship will come.

.

.

Will come to an end either in.

.

.

In death or estrangement.

And that's how all of our relationships end and it's.

.

.

It's inevitable whether we want it to or not.

Every relationship we have will end in death or estrangement.

So that's.

.

.

That's just the honest truth.

And when I don't try to sugarcoat that or pretend,

We don't have to dwell in the.

.

.

The how horrible the loss is going to be when it happens.

I mean,

That's not the point of what I said.

It's to be,

Okay,

This is the.

.

.

This is the truth of the matter as far as I can see.

That's how it's going to happen.

And so when I don't pretend to deceive myself and deny the truth,

Then.

.

.

Then I can be.

.

.

I can go and live my life a little bit happier and.

.

.

And.

.

.

And more straightforward as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I just wanted to say,

I haven't said to Mrs.

Reed,

I'll just say aloud her little comment here,

Which is,

I say it in gratitude,

Thanks.

The pray hands means that for me,

Gratitude.

So that was a little bit of a reference because I wanted to know what that.

.

.

That was.

So the hands coming together.

Yeah.

So today I led a mindfulness class and we had a big class as.

.

.

As it happens.

And there were a bunch of seniors and there was a lot of.

.

.

There were a lot of people who were lonely,

Who'd had difficult childhoods,

Who'd done a lot of personal work,

Who were interested in knowing more.

But there was this overall sense of.

.

.

They had gained,

They'd worked in their life and they were,

You know,

They have children,

But there is a loss there.

They're in their seniors,

Their family are further away,

They may or may not be married,

Or if they were in marriages,

They,

You know,

I heard stories that that was not a great situation either.

So there can be a.

.

.

A thing about loss and not loss.

There's something called ambiguous loss.

I don't know if you've ever heard of this.

Well,

It makes sense right away.

I'm just thinking of my folks and family,

How far away they are right now,

You know,

In a way it's.

.

.

It's not a loss because I could go there anytime and visit them or call them anytime.

But,

You know,

A lot of people never leave the area where they grew up because they don't want to leave their friends and family they grew up with.

So in a sense,

It's a loss.

In a sense,

It's not a loss or it kind of seems like a loss,

But it's not really clear if it is or not.

Yeah,

It's ambiguous.

So this was somebody called Pauline Boss in the 1970s.

They were Vietnam vets.

So all these American soldiers were in Vietnam or were in Vietnam.

And the wives would go,

Well,

He's missing in action.

So is he alive?

Is he dead?

Can I move on?

So this was this real deep,

Deep,

Ambiguous loss because that was in the 70s.

You couldn't just remarry.

But then the women had to,

Like they.

.

.

They're people.

So what do you do?

And then what do you say to the children?

All this very complicated stuff.

And it's increasingly being used in terms of dementia.

So the body is there,

But the person is gone.

So that's another aspect of loss there.

And gain,

I don't know,

I'm always,

I'm going to be honest,

I'm quite nervous about gain.

Because I think if I gain,

I'm so nervous about the loss.

You know,

And I've had money,

And then I've lost it.

And I've not lost it,

But I've spent it,

You know,

It goes.

But I'm hopeless with money,

And I don't have much money.

But I did want to tell you about the story today.

So I live in quite a low socioeconomic area,

A high level of disadvantage.

And a couple of weeks ago,

There was a woman at the supermarket next to me,

And she was on her phone,

And she was asking how to get the internet working,

So she could get into her bank.

And she was going,

I don't have enough money.

And I said,

It sort of breaks my heart.

And she had her little girl with her.

And I said,

You know,

How much do you need?

And she said,

Well,

It's $13.

And I've only got $5.

And I said,

Hang it,

I'll just pay that for you today.

Like,

I really don't care.

And then I gave her some money as well.

Just because I said,

You will need this,

You know,

It's not,

You've got a little girl,

I haven't got much money,

But I've got a bit of cash,

Here you go.

And,

And I actually,

I did the same today,

This afternoon.

I stopped in at the supermarket,

And the guy in the till next to me,

He was buying lots of candies or whatever.

And he was 10 cents short.

So I was like,

Oh,

He has 10 cents.

And then I gave him $10 as well.

So there's a practice about work,

Because I grew up in a family where money is really tight.

And it means a lot.

And it's a power thing.

And it's,

There's a lot of angst about that.

And I tend not to do that.

And in my area,

You know,

There's so many people who have,

I mean,

There's a lot of homelessness in my area.

And people are hard,

It's,

People have hard bodies,

They've lived,

You know.

So my $10 doesn't mean anything that I gave the fellow today.

But to him,

It's like,

Oh my gosh.

So,

So that's a loss for me.

There's no two ways about it.

I don't have much money.

But it's a game for him.

So,

So there's that.

And then there wasn't a loss,

Because it was a shared thing too,

You know.

So,

Yeah,

But I think it's really important also to receive gracefully.

I'm big on that.

So it's not just about giving to others.

But it's like,

For the sake of five bucks,

You know,

Like,

Really?

So,

But then there are some people are like,

Well,

He deserves it,

She deserves it.

What have they done?

I,

You know,

I'm going to hold on to all my cash.

These are,

These are so great points when it comes to our monetary system,

Which I think at the core is just some made up thing,

You know,

Pieces of paper,

Or digits in a computer.

So it's so bizarre in that sense.

And then so many people tie their worth and value and everything they do in life to these things.

So in that way,

It's completely absurd,

Right?

But at the same time,

It's very practical,

Because we need this to operate in life.

Otherwise,

We're not being responsible.

We're a weight and a burden on others or can be potentially so.

And then there's so many ideas and emotions around money.

So,

And I don't want to get new agey into the,

You know,

The law of attraction and abundance mindset,

Which is all,

You know,

There's all pros and cons to all this stuff.

But what I like about the the Buddhist teachings around this,

And Wendy,

You know,

It's framed in the world around gain and loss,

Right?

But the alternative to this,

I feel,

Is generosity.

And Wendy,

You know,

She illustrated that so wonderfully here,

How this is actually a gift from the heart.

And,

You know,

It feels good when considering being generous,

It feels good when giving generously.

And then afterwards,

To receive it's almost an immediate feedback and benefit of how it brightens and uplifts the heart.

Now,

I'm not saying here that everyone should go into poverty and give everything away immediately.

Some people can,

And that would be great.

But they have to have practical reasons of what they're going to do afterwards,

Or maybe not,

Or be okay with living on the streets or whatever.

But you know,

That aside,

How can we be generous,

And it doesn't have to be with money either,

You know,

Just spending a couple extra seconds,

You know,

Looking deeply into somebody's eyes,

Or even giving a smile,

Or just remembering,

Okay,

What can I contribute?

What can I be generous with my energy,

My time,

You know,

My attention?

Or just even considering that as such an act of generosity,

That we would take the time to even just take a few moments to scan and think,

What can I contribute?

And even if I can't contribute anything,

Just the mere act of being willing and able to do that,

You know,

Is such a beautiful thing.

And I think another thing to keep in mind here is,

Yes,

We're not going to get everything we want in life.

But once we start getting more of a kind of a trust that everything we need will be provided one way or another,

You know,

Some things that we need will come into our lives,

And we won't even imagine how they possibly were provided to us.

So I think the more the trust that we're going to have what we need in this life,

No matter what,

Takes a huge burden off of this hamster wheel of financiality,

You know.

So that with generosity,

And it really starts to ease this notion of kind of lack and things around money.

Now,

Yeah,

What do we really need is the other thing when it comes to finance.

That's,

I think that's another thing.

How willing are we to just get our basic needs met?

Or how much do we,

That's not acceptable.

And so if that's not acceptable,

Then we're going to have to do certain things in life that maybe we don't want to do in order to have what we quote unquote want.

So all these balancing acts.

I also want to say,

Wendy,

Hopefully,

I mean,

You're please be safe on your bike and all the best safety.

I know we make these kind of dark jokes,

But I just wanted to say that too.

Because yeah,

It's,

It kind of,

You know,

It's true,

Though,

We don't know what we're gonna I mean,

You know,

Driving in a car is probably just as dangerous,

If not more dangerous.

So many people die in car.

I know,

I don't want to get you going on this stuff.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's just,

It just hits up is the people driving cars who are the terrible ones.

They're the ones killing everybody.

They're the ones.

They're the ones.

Don't say you have to be safe.

It's like the drivers have to be safe.

You don't need to tell me.

However,

I wanted to just be safe,

Everyone,

However,

You're propelling yourself forward in space,

No matter your means or methods.

Be safe.

Be well.

So,

All right,

I'm gonna ask you a question.

Josh.

Are you in Denmark?

Right now?

Yes.

Do you have a bank account in Denmark?

No,

I don't.

So,

I'm using this thing called Revolut.

So,

It's an international thing,

But I can easily transfer money,

Convert money with it.

But anyway,

So yes,

I have bank accounts.

So,

You have a bank account in the US?

Yeah.

Okay.

So,

That account that you have in the US,

Who owns the money?

Yeah,

That's right.

So,

This is so watered down and ambiguous.

The simple answer is I really don't know.

Who literally owns the money?

If I had to guess,

I'd say the bank does.

Well,

The bank doesn't own the money.

Well,

The bank has the money.

Yeah.

They have the money.

That's not who owns the money.

Yeah,

I don't know.

Who prints the money?

That needs to be considered.

You would think it would be me.

You would think it would be me,

Right?

No.

It's the government.

I mean,

I can't speak for the US,

But I mean,

I think it's the US Treasury,

I think,

That owns it.

Well,

That's right.

In Australia,

It's the Commonwealth of Australia,

Whatever that term is.

But we also have the Federal Reserve,

Which is another huge ball of wax that people have to pay interest to,

And that's a whole other thing to go down.

But anyway,

Yeah.

But okay.

So,

Whether it's your Federal Reserve or,

I mean,

I think that's like the Reserve Bank of Australia.

That's a different thing.

But you've got,

Basically,

It's the government,

The sort of institution of government,

Federal government,

Whether that's in the US or Australia,

That owns that money.

Now,

If we were like France or Greece or wherever,

Where there were French francs,

And then you've now into euros.

So,

The franc is no longer a valid currency.

And I don't know whether francs are still available,

But,

Or,

You know,

They still have value in them.

I do know that in the UK,

When you have old British notes,

They're valid for a while.

And then at some point,

They're no longer valid.

Like you can't take,

They're no longer tender.

You can't take them to the bank,

Even.

So,

Yeah.

So,

It's an interesting inquiry.

And for me,

Who was very tight about owning money and poverty mine,

I was like,

Well,

Who owns the money?

Well,

It's the bank.

It's not the bank.

It's the government.

And the bank is storing it.

And actually on my,

It's money now.

It's often just pixels on a phone.

So,

And that's it,

Or some bit of plus inside the chip of a plastic,

You know,

Card.

So,

That really helped me ease up about my sense of,

It's my money.

I don't really care.

Now,

I'm aware,

Josh,

That you and I have talked about gain and loss.

We've only done one.

Maybe we should do one session on each of them,

Well,

That's,

It's a possibility.

But no,

We have talked about,

We have talked about fame and ill repute.

And what's the other one?

We have talked quite a bit about fame and ill repute too.

Pleasure and praise and blame.

And we did go into praise and blame,

Wendy.

So,

The one we haven't done though,

Is the pleasure and pain,

You know?

All right.

Okay.

I think we could,

We could maybe do it.

But I think we've covered pretty much all of them except for pleasure and pain.

And we have a little bit of,

This is a really interesting one,

Because this is so ubiquitous.

I will just say,

You know,

Every single experience we have is either pleasant,

Unpleasant,

Or neither of these.

And while something is unpleasant,

It doesn't necessarily qualify as pain,

But a lot of times it does.

So,

The natural human tendency,

And there's nothing I don't think super wrong in and of itself,

Is if something's pleasant,

We want more of it.

We don't want it,

We don't want to let it go.

And if something is painful,

We don't want it.

And we want to try to prevent it from happening.

So,

These are,

These are okay strategies.

The only thing with these that comes up is that sometimes we're not in a position to do this,

Where we can't avoid pain and we,

You know,

And,

And we can't hold onto pleasure.

So,

There needs to be other alternative strategies around pain and pleasure than simply maximizing pleasure,

Minimizing pain,

Because sometimes we can't do that,

Right?

And it,

A lot of times it takes a lot of energy and time to do so.

And is that really the best use of our time is to,

To basically chase sense pleasures all the time.

So,

I have some,

Some,

There's some alternatives to this,

But I want to maybe just throw it back to Wendy here real quick about this and anything else with these other ones too,

If you want to say anything about it.

Yeah,

So there's a Buddhist teacher called Vidyamala Birch,

And she's been in a wheelchair since she was 15.

I think she's now 60.

And she says it's like having a toothache in the middle of your,

In the middle of her back.

And it's been like that for 45,

50,

What is that?

45 years.

So,

She has,

She's a really,

Really skilled practitioner and obviously a lot of loving-kindness meditation because it was actually a surgeon who performed surgery that caused that pain.

So,

And she's gorgeous,

Like she's this lovely,

Beautiful woman.

And she's also had to deal with pain because she lives with chronic pain,

You know,

For her to do a long-haul flight.

So,

From New Zealand,

She comes from New Zealand,

But she lives in the UK.

So,

Long-haul is,

I think for her,

It would be sort of 28 hours on a plane.

So,

You just stop once for that.

So,

In Australia,

That's what we call long-haul,

Is 2 times 12 or something like that.

So,

She,

For her to get on that plane,

She's on opioids.

That's how excruciating it is.

And it's bliss.

And then she comes off the plane,

The opioids wear off.

And then she goes,

Okay,

I've got to deal with this.

She says when she goes in for surgery,

It's like,

So lovely,

There's no pain,

There's no pain.

And then she knows it's going to wear off.

And she's like,

Excruciating pain that she lives with.

And so she describes the difference between there is pain and then there is suffering.

And she says you have the pain,

Which is the physical pain.

And then the suffering is when she goes,

Oh my gosh,

Here we go,

Here we go,

Here we go,

I know this is going to be awful.

And that's the suffering.

And you can split those two.

That's what she encourages to do.

You can do this with emotional pain as well.

And I think that's quite useful to understand and to be with,

Particularly as we age,

That that is a big thing.

And as for pleasure,

I often think that pleasure is a bit of a problem.

You know,

You can have a chocolate biscuit,

And then you've got all that sort of sweet chocolate cloying thing,

It's not very nice either.

There's pain,

So pleasure,

Pain.

So I think often pleasure,

I actually,

I don't know,

There's,

You can have something delicious,

And then it goes.

But it doesn't mean to say you have to have more of it or something.

There's a different quality.

I think about,

You know,

If I have a rich chocolate cake or something like that.

Now,

It happened to be my husband's birthday yesterday,

So I made a gluten-free,

Dairy-free,

Vegetarian cake.

And we have pudding,

Which is tofu and chia seeds and fruit,

You know,

It's like,

Talk about wholesome.

Anyway,

But we had it,

And it was really delicious.

And then we get to the end,

I was like,

Oh gee,

I feel like I've eaten a lot.

But I didn't feel that awfulness.

So there is pleasure,

Sometimes that feels good,

That leaves a nice aftertaste.

And then there is pleasure,

Which feels yucky afterwards.

So anyway,

There you go.

Very good distinction.

And this is where I think some of the classical Buddhist teachings shine around these things like this,

Because everybody knows this can be a potential problem,

Right?

But they don't really know what to do about it,

I think.

Not,

I wouldn't say everybody,

But let's start with the,

Well,

Let's just start with pleasure,

And I'll go back to pain.

So the classic example that's given is ice cream,

Right?

Oh,

It's great for a little bit.

And then how much are we just going to keep eating?

And then,

Oh,

Even it feels horrible at a certain point,

But people won't,

Well,

Some people will still keep eating that,

You know.

And so that's an interesting thing.

That's an interesting phenomenon,

Right?

And then we can have pleasure about wholesome things.

And that's kind of the Buddhist teachings alternatives.

When he was talking about actually wholesome food,

Actually kind of,

I wonder,

You know,

On a base psychology level,

Is this is kind of,

And we talked about value too,

And money.

Another thing that goes around with money,

Just a quick aside,

Is how,

What are we valuing,

You know?

And especially ourselves,

Do we value ourselves?

And not necessarily it's tied to money,

But this internal valuing of ourselves,

It kind of plays in a way to that too.

Perhaps,

Perhaps not.

So back to the pleasure though.

So what is a wholesome pleasure?

And the ultimate wholesome pleasure the Buddha recommended is jhana,

Is concentration,

Because it's,

And there's also the bliss of blamelessness that ties into before about blaming that,

You know,

It is quite blissful not to assign blame to see things happening due to causes and conditions,

But that's,

That's a little bit more complex.

So okay,

This is how I keep bringing it back here,

Josh.

So this,

This bliss of meditative states,

Now there's a potential danger that people crave meditative states,

And it won't want it,

And don't know how to function without it.

But this is,

When it's not done with that,

When it's done in service to the path,

Then it's a wholesome thing,

Because it can't be really blamed other than if I'm clinging to it like something else.

But still,

Even if that,

It's,

It's,

I think it's way better than the dangers of sense pleasure.

So we're supposed to look at,

Why am I doing this?

The benefits of what I'm doing?

What is the danger in this?

And then what is the escape from it?

So this is a great exercise to look at where we're going after pleasures.

You know,

Why am I doing it?

What am I benefiting from it?

What actually the danger in this?

And then how do I escape?

You know,

What's the healthy way to go about this?

And so that,

That's the pleasure.

And I don't think,

I love this saying that pleasure is not the problem.

It's clinging.

Clinging,

That's the problem,

Right?

So we're going to experience pleasure whether we want to or not.

There's just certain things in our life that are going to be pleasant regardless of whether we seek them out or not.

Now I know at a certain point in my practice that I was actually fearing pleasure,

Like Wendy was saying too,

Because I kind of knew that the opposite would come at some point.

But the problem with that is that then I can't enjoy it because it's going to happen anyway,

But then I can't get into it.

There was a fear of,

Oh,

If I enjoy this,

I'm going to be like a bad Buddhist or,

You know,

I'm,

I'm,

I'm going to,

It's going to condition my clinging to pleasant things.

And well,

I don't know,

Maybe,

Maybe not.

But the fact is that it wasn't that helpful because I couldn't even enjoy it.

It's going to,

It's going to pass anyway.

So it's kind of like the inverted version of some people are like really want pleasant things and they get upset when it,

When it goes away and they try to cling as much as they can.

So long story short,

Clinging is a problem,

Not pleasure.

So how much am I clinging to whatever it is?

However much I don't want pleasure or however much I want to hold on to pleasure.

Now pain,

This is where it's really helpful too.

I've been fortunate enough not to experience a lot of physical pain in my life.

It's been more kind of emotional,

Mental,

Psychic pain that I've dealt with.

So I've been very grateful for that.

But like Wendy said,

It also applies to that.

And this is a classic teaching of the two darts,

Right?

We're going to get hit with the dart of pain in life.

That's just part of being human.

We're all going to experience some kind of pain at some point in our lives,

Probably quite a bit.

You know,

It's just,

That's part of the human gig here.

There's no way out of that now,

But we,

What we can't avoid is shooting ourselves with a second dart.

That's the psychological pain on top of it saying,

Oh,

What was me?

This shouldn't happen to me.

Maybe.

What did I do to deserve this?

Why,

Why,

Why,

You know,

Why,

Why am I like that?

Why is this happening?

It shouldn't be this way.

What am I going to do to get rid of it and start strategizing and micromanaging every little thing around it,

Which maybe sometimes can be helpful or not.

But this is the psychological pain that we can have a training over that can,

It's optional,

Right?

They say pain,

There's a saying that says pain is inevitable.

Suffering is optional.

Meaning the psychological suffering that we add on top of the pain,

That's already going to be there from time to time.

That's unavoidable.

So.

Yeah,

Well,

We just,

We just got one minute left and I'm going to conclude with a little story.

So I met somebody once and she sat down to meditate for the first time as a,

I don't know,

In her twenties or thirties or something.

And she spent the next six months in pure bliss and it was an absolute nightmare.

So.

Well,

Tell me more.

I don't know anything more than that.

She just said it was really difficult.

I wanted to be able to sort of have some sort of variability,

But I didn't even have the variability.

I was just in this total bliss state for six months.

Driven nuts.

And some people would be like,

How do I get that?

I want that.

But I just think that it just goes to show,

You know,

A bit like the ice cream,

But you know,

Some of them aren't more pleasant than others anyway.

So that's a good note to end on.

So it's been really lovely having people here.

We had a couple of people today,

So that was very lovely and great having a chat with you.

And I'm here on Gubbi Gubbi Country in Queensland,

In Kaboolture,

In Australia.

And from Viking land here,

I think,

Maybe I don't know if that's appropriate to say or whatever,

Or how accurate that actually is.

But as far as I know,

There were Vikings around here as well.

So very interesting.

Yeah.

And I would just end with the pleasure thing.

Yes,

You know,

Some people are actually unwholesomely trying to get to that.

And some people,

Like you said,

But I think the next stage will then be equanimity.

And yeah,

Maybe it's a training,

The opposite.

It's not all having to deal with pain all the time.

How do we deal with extreme bliss states for the very few of us that are there,

Right?

But all right.

I'll tell you when I'm there.

All right.

Well,

May you all face the worldly winds wisely and be well out there.

Absolutely.

Have a good one.

See you next time.

Bye.