Awakening: Tools & Teachers (Part 2) With Randi G & Alex M

In February 2023, Randi Green and I were joined by Alex Manning to discuss awakening. In this part two we talk about how some tools can be stepping stones as well as distortions and hinderances: like tarot, astrology, crystals, healing systems, etc. Also mentioned: redefining terminology, training and teachers.

Transcript

Holiness,

Welcome.

This is Josh Dippold of IntegratingPresence.

Com and we've got a part two to our conversation,

So to speak,

With Randy Green here and Alex Manning.

And of course,

I said I'm Josh Dippold.

I'm still Josh Dippold as far as I know.

That's what they call me.

We're going to call this one on tools and teachers,

Although we kind of were joking right before we recorded that the standard cliche,

Don't do this at home,

Right?

So but this is and then why we don't do this at home.

We'll probably gloss over some of these traditional,

I don't know if they're awakening tools.

It's just things if you go into a crystal shop or a spiritual store or things like that,

It's kind of all the different paraphernalia and things you can buy that are physical,

But also their own little systems.

So I had a little list before we started about things.

Well,

Not necessarily all of them,

Psychedelics and different substances,

Healing modalities.

There are a ton of healing modalities out there and ways and systems of healing.

Then there's spiritual systems in general.

You know,

We have things like from anywhere from different religious systems to New Age and spiritual systems,

Esoteric cult systems,

All these different types of things.

There's things like astrology.

There's all kinds of different versions of astrology,

Vedic astrology,

Western astrology,

Hellenistic astrology,

I think,

Which I know very little about.

There's the Tarot and all these different card decks,

Right?

Crystals too,

I think we're all a fan of crystals,

But the way we talk about using them is far different than what's usually thought of.

But the big thing I think that we could talk about in more detail,

Other than glossing over these other ones,

Is teachers and friends.

How everyone approached that,

Like what to look for in teachers and what to look for in friends.

If we do use tools at some point along the way,

How do we vet these tools?

I know,

I'll just give a.

.

.

Well,

Actually,

No.

I'm going to pass this over to you guys now to say anything.

Yeah,

I think I would just add,

I think we can think of these as kind of gateway tools,

Right?

So when you're starting off in your process or your path,

You start to dabble perhaps in some of these tools or practices to.

.

.

You're looking for answers,

Right?

You're seeking answers,

You're learning about yourself,

You're learning about your intuition,

Trial and error,

And you're kind of finding your rhythm with trusting your intuition.

But what you alluded to and why we were talking about don't try this at home,

In a sense you're still displacing your power,

So to speak.

You're still externally looking for answers or guidance from an outside system,

An outside framework or an outside toolkit,

Right?

But I think on your point about teachers and friends,

Maybe we can talk about how that's a different kind of toolkit than some of these more esoteric options.

Sure.

And I'll just play devil's advocate here for a second and say,

Well,

Don't you think there's some kind of good reason these things are around?

All these people still use them and they get these so-called results from them,

Right?

If they're completely pointless and useless,

Why are people still into them?

And if I were to answer my own question,

I would say,

Well,

People are relying on crutches,

They're habitual maybe in their nature,

They're addicted,

Kind of,

Maybe they're scared to venture on their own.

I know the few times I've went to readers,

I usually look at people that don't have props.

I call these things props sometimes,

You know?

It's not just because I'm ignorant of them.

I have some knowledge in some ways.

But then I think maybe the one way to look at it too though is what is my take on this?

How do I do this?

Can I pick up a tarot deck or a crystal and not have to read about it or go to any kind of outside source?

And so how do I intuitively start working with this?

What's my take on this?

Because so many people will ask me,

I have a little crystal,

Like,

You know,

What does this one do?

What's it about?

And I say,

Well,

I'm interested in that information sometimes too,

But I like to just pick it up and see what I get and work with it.

And then later go on and see maybe for confirmation or to see how other people are working with it so it doesn't influence how I do it.

Because a lot of people,

Once they're told something,

They think,

Oh,

Well,

That's just how it is.

And then they disregard their own processes and their own take and their own way of doing with it.

And then we just have a more gray hive mind type things.

And people just follow into the things that have already set.

And we've got this hierarchical system of,

Oh,

I'm the knowledge expert.

This is how it is.

And so people just think less of themselves.

They think,

Well,

I don't have that kind of knowledge.

Or if I said something,

It would be really stupid.

So I'll just go along with what's already out there.

I think it's good to ask oneself when you're doing this,

What is the intention?

Right?

So usually with astrology,

You're trying to understand your own personality structure a little bit better.

Or tarot,

You're maybe not trying to predict the future.

But in some capacity,

You're looking for some confirmation or affirmation of something.

Right?

So I think that's also an important piece of this,

Is looking at your intentions.

Why are you engaging in this process?

What is the outcome you're looking for?

And what is it affirming or not affirming for you?

And I would say the big delineations here are this classic service to self or service to others,

Too.

I think that's a huge thing.

And I see so many kind of more,

I guess,

Maybe left-handed or service to self type things in these communities,

Which I don't want to completely write off because there's some people that do need to focus on themselves and work on themselves instead of other people sometimes.

But it obviously can get turned into,

Oh yeah,

What can I get?

Can I get money,

Power,

Relationships type of things instead of saying,

Okay,

Well,

Yes,

I need a certain degree of wellbeing and self-care.

But after that,

Am I just going to focus all my time and energy on myself?

I mean,

That's fairly selfish.

And then why am I doing that?

Why would I do that?

Why can't I,

Or then looking at the service to others,

The more,

Well,

We can also argue though too,

The more I take care of myself,

Since we're all interconnected,

Everyone else benefits.

But one of the guidance I've had is around,

Well,

If I want something,

Then I should also want it for everybody else.

Right?

What would the world look like if everybody had the same things that I'm after doing the same things that I do too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think the next kind of question or set of questions is what am I linking up to when I'm participating and what kind of energies and people,

Collective energies or individuals,

What am I linking up to when I participate in these rituals,

Practices?

And some people might throw it back there with the tarot.

I actually like it looking at it as the archetypal nature of humanity.

Right?

So that's one way that most people don't usually work with it,

But I think I find it really helpful to see all these different archetypes.

I actually have challenged with the minor arcana because that seems a little bit more mysterious to me sometimes than even the major arcana because the major arcana seem to have so much power in them,

You know,

And so much stand out so much.

The minor arcana,

That's the personality traits.

It's all about the lower fields.

Exactly.

I never understood that.

Why even bother with that stuff?

It turns out the other way around.

You've got the coins that are the materialistic level.

You have got the staff that are the fire that's mental compared to what many people think.

And then you actually have the cups that are the emotional level and then you have the swords but that's discernment and that yes,

That is a higher level of fire or higher level of what we call many people see the staff as the spirituality of the fire element as the spiritual realm.

But actually discernment,

This is,

But this I want to go where I go here is that this is not something I studied because the first time I got a tarot,

I call it tarot with the T at the end in my hands,

I knew by intuition what to do with it.

So I and I've discovered that with many of these tools that I kind of go into this body that I'm currently part of has its own history of having dabbled with these different tools earlier on from earlier times,

Including the Buddhist monk and already per when I had,

As I said,

This understanding of how to meditate before I was even at age,

Nobody taught me anything the same with a tarot card.

Once I got the deck in my hand,

It was just like it flowed from me.

I just knew exactly what it was all about.

And for me,

Tarot is nothing to do with divination or it goes on.

If you go to the Egyptian version of it,

Yes,

That's brotherhood teachings that's used for something within Freemason and the symbols are connected to a specific type of number system,

A specific type of pyramidical system that goes with these different levels of stages of aspiration.

And then you can say,

Well,

That's kind of the four level four lower levels of it that way you work with it on that level.

But where you have the major account of that's a collective,

The archetypes,

But they are also sometimes associated with the Kabbalah.

So you need to know which one you're actually dealing with,

What is it that you're working with when you're working with these dynamics?

Yeah.

And the deck itself and the intent behind the deck itself.

I mean,

You can get like a Crowley deck or a Thothian deck,

You get with the standard.

The only thing I've,

The way I worked with it,

I got a standard.

Well,

Then there's this maybe superstition around,

You're not supposed to buy your first deck,

You're supposed to be given it.

So I went out and bought one and gave it two of them actually,

Before I got my first one given to me.

And then I made sure I went out and gave another one.

So if I would,

But anyway,

That's kind of more superstitious,

But I took it one card at a time.

I put it on my refrigerator on a magnet.

And just every time I went by the refrigerator,

I would stare deeply at it and what kind of information I would get from it,

That kind of the meaning and the just the larger nature of the symbols and the kind of the energetics,

I guess,

And the consciousness level of it.

And just that's how I took it.

You know,

I went through the whole deck,

One card each.

But this is where you need to know what you're working with.

I didn't read anything else whatsoever.

The pictures themselves are like we would call pictograms.

They are kind of what we could say subconscious material.

That's psychological.

The symbols,

They take you into the what we could call the deeper levels of your psyche that creates bridges that opens up different gate systems,

All depending on what deck you're working with.

So of course,

If you're working with a really shitty decks like Crawley,

Then you get into some really shit show there.

And the Tothian decks and all of these,

These are dark decks.

So of course,

Unless you are an old Atlantean and you use the shitty magic in the old days,

You're not doing these decks at all.

You find something else.

For me,

The recommendation,

Which I used to do in the early times when I had my own school and here in Denmark,

I recommended the decks that were only focusing on the subconscious,

Drawing up subconscious material,

Not these heavy ritualistic magically infused decks,

Because that's for the old Atlanteans.

That's what the Rider Waite is,

Kind of the standard that they compare everything else to.

That's the one I did.

And it was heavily subconscious,

Unconscious material is what I got.

Now the numbers in there,

I was never a number person.

And just because I always see numbers as well,

You can assign anything a number,

Like you get a football player,

Right?

And you put his name and a number on there.

I mean,

Does it really mean anything?

But then people,

I say,

Well,

What are people reading meaning into numbers?

And I could see that,

But I can also see how certain numbers seem to appear or be correlated with certain types of patterns and events and things like this.

So very mysterious to me,

Just like astrology as well.

The original Egyptian decks did not have numbers.

So you see,

That's a later adding.

We are talking middle ages.

In the middle ages,

Things were added in.

Like four of swords,

They didn't have any of the numbers on there.

No,

No,

No.

How are the,

How are they?

It was kind of the picture itself.

I see.

So they didn't need to have a certain number of swords on each individual one.

In ancient Egypt,

They didn't have four of swords.

They had swords and they had images.

They didn't.

So what did they have?

I don't know.

It would be something completely different.

So what we need to discern here is about when we talk about the original tools that goes behind the history of these decks and what they've been used for back then in the temples and what they've been used for now,

Because what we have now is a production of the middle ages where everything got conflated.

We had the whole Christianity,

Symbols,

Alchemy,

Archangels,

The lots of most of the cards we have today,

They're a mess.

So they are not really of any use.

They're not,

They're not in my perception,

They're not usable for anything other than subconscious material,

As well as the collective subconscious that goes with myths,

That goes with distortion,

That goes with the astral plane.

So for me,

It's a tool to breach the astral plane,

To create a gateway,

As you said,

Alex,

Into the astral plane.

And go beyond that,

Right?

Yes.

But then you leave behind the tarot cards because they are only for use on the astral plane.

I see.

They cannot be used for high awakening processes.

And this is where a lot of people get trapped thinking they've woken up,

But they've only just reached the astral plane,

Right?

Yes.

Lower levels of it.

Lower levels.

And so,

So now we see this in cycles of consciousness,

Right?

Like in Egypt,

Supposedly there was really high levels and then they got into the pharaohs,

Right?

And then it just all devolved from there.

Are we get like,

What are some of the things like these things in nature,

They've got deified,

Right?

These processes that happen in nature.

Well,

Then all of a sudden,

I guess the level of consciousness drops somehow.

And then these natural processes that more people had a higher level of awareness and consciousness could see things as processes,

But then at a certain point they couldn't.

So they kind of deified these different processes is what I've heard some people say.

And I can kind of see how that happens.

So it doesn't make,

It's not too far stretched to say that was with the tarot deck too,

Compared to earlier systems like they might've drawn on.

Because I think the history around it too is not entirely clear or something like that.

And even the one card and we'll go into one detail here for some flavor maybe,

But the hanged man.

So it's supposedly from what I've heard,

That doesn't really have any origins or the origin of that card is not like scholarly.

The origins of it is not scholarly noted,

If I'm getting that right.

So what does that draw on?

What's your,

If I could ask,

What is your take on that card?

Well,

Not that specific card,

But what I would go into this whole kind of,

You try to trace to the origin and the root of it,

And then we go further down and say,

Okay,

Where does it come from?

Did the ancient cultures have this?

And we're talking the really ancient cultures.

For me,

We have the demarcation line 15,

000 years ago,

Where we had this new type of humans that were seeded into this reality.

And then when we talk about these tools,

They are quite late.

So that's where we have the scavenger races and the prohibitive technologies that came in.

So we might have had an original temple cult that were kind of focused on props,

Focusing on rituals,

Focused on different ways of working with the alternate reality.

But when we talk about the ancient realities and the ancient temple cults,

For me,

The priests that were there,

They didn't need these tools because they were linked up to alien technology.

So they were all infused with alien technology,

Enhanced by alien genetics,

And by that had the direct line to the aliens that were coming in as colonization of a reality field.

So for me,

Tarot and all of these divination,

Thank you,

And whatever props you can come up with for lay people.

Well,

That's right.

And so it's also been kind of turned into the materialization of some of the spirituality,

Right?

It's a trap.

It's a booby trap.

So you're taking spiritual processes,

Which means not material,

Right?

And making them material in one way.

This also goes with the technologicalization of consciousness and energy too,

Instead of relying on our natural consciousness energy.

It's a way to give you a way.

The more you work with the tool,

The more you imbue your energy into it,

And the more you become depending on that tool.

For instance,

This kind of whatever scrying crystal or what have you,

I tried that for a little while,

But my energy was so strong,

I could make it go wherever I wanted to go.

It was not scrying for me.

I made it scry.

So I might as well just look at the map and say,

What does my intuition tell me?

Right?

So for me,

And that's why I'm very,

Very cynical when we talk about all the things that people are using.

For me,

That's the old version of a rabbit hole.

Let me ask this.

What if you made your own tarot cards?

Are you still linking up to that?

Well,

Then you're just putting your own energy into some kind of visuals.

So why even make the tarot card?

Why not just work with it in contemplation and meditation?

Start directly with the image and then go from there and see where it takes you.

Explore the image.

It's a good point.

It makes me think of art now too,

Because a lot of people think of,

You know,

They call these the esoteric arts,

Right?

Or the,

You know,

The occult arts and things like this.

But there's a lot to say,

I think,

And maybe I don't want to take this in this too much a direction,

But you know,

Art,

Just the art in general,

You know,

Just standard everyday art,

Painting,

Sculpture,

You know,

Movies,

Which is one of the,

I would think even higher art forms because it can encapsulate all these other ones if done well.

But,

And then even in a way this,

Whatever this is called Josh,

It's kind of like an art project as well.

So I mean,

Yeah,

I mean,

I don't know if there's so,

And we can turn our lives into that too,

Or it doesn't necessarily have to be a formal art thing,

Right?

As well.

But then we can mix science into it too.

I don't know where I'm going with this,

But,

And evolving creationary process.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And definitely if people feel like drawing stuff,

Then we know there are drawing therapy and as a psychotherapist,

Right?

You can take your entire subconscious,

Just go into this theta state and then just draw a picture or draw something on a piece of paper or whatever.

And then afterwards,

Look at it,

Meditate upon it and do some kind of what,

What,

What does this show me?

What is it that I have surfaced here?

How am I to work with this?

And I will also recommend after that process is done,

Then burn the paper and toss it out because then the process is over.

Don't keep it.

Don't say,

Oh,

This is so whatever.

But this,

Because whatever we work with,

Whenever we put something into manifestation,

The more aware we get,

The more we understand how to work with energy.

And we also understand that this kind of putting everything into a materialistic exemplification of our energy system kind of ties us to a specific node point in time.

It also ties us to a specific version of who we are.

And if we work with awakening as a process to what we call more and more expanded awareness,

Then we tie ourself to anchor points that are narrowing us down by using these tools.

This brings up to that.

Yeah.

The thing with the inkblots,

Right?

To interpret that as unconscious material,

But also like this automatic drawing,

Automatic writing and see kind of like tune out and just see what comes on the page and then interpret it later.

These are all different types of practices too.

The burning thing also reminded me of the oral traditions,

Right?

A lot of these esoteric teaching systems and traditions,

It was only spoken.

So it had to be passed down from a living teacher,

Their lineage.

It couldn't be written down,

But a lot of these things later got written down.

And so it's not the quite same thing.

And there's rules too around writing down as the higher levels go on,

Right?

There's only so many things that can be said explicitly in books,

Right?

Or there'll be either repercussions or maybe it might not even be the capacity might not be there to begin with to be able to do that.

I don't know exactly how that works,

But.

It just works with the mere fact that the higher you get up in awareness,

The higher you work,

We can define what awareness is,

But the higher perception level of reality you're able to contain and hold,

The more complex it gets.

And thereby you understand what the complexity of the information I'm working with here is so,

So advanced that I can only take a portion and draw that as a dot or something.

But then the rest is inside our energy system is inside our capacity of perception of wherever we point that.

But we also learn we can only use snippets of it at a time.

And this reminds me now again of the historical Buddha who basically taught from almost his entire waking hour from when his point of enlightenment until when he died and people just supposedly listen to his teachings and then memorize them.

Right.

But so that's,

Yeah,

That's right.

Because he taught for certain levels,

But there's only,

And then to a discourse to whoever was present.

So yeah,

This,

It would,

It would be relevant to whoever was there,

Whoever was listening,

Their capacity.

And at the same time you can only do so much in certain ways.

So like the,

The discernment of what's the most relevant,

What's going to seep in and be the most beneficial in this little moment in time.

Yeah.

So,

And then we're,

Randy mentioned defining awareness.

So one of the other things we talked about before we started this topic is just defining these very kind of,

I don't know,

High minded,

High ideal terms,

But they're,

They're all similar but they're distinctly different.

So maybe I'll just read them here.

And if we decide we want to give a definition to these,

I find it helpful just to put a ground rule for other things or lay a groundwork for other things.

And then also maybe we'll talk about teachers and friends because that's the kind of thing that we can benefit because we're going to have teachers and friends no matter if we're on an awakening or a path or not,

I would think.

So,

But these terms,

Awareness,

Mind and heart and heart,

Mind,

Consciousness,

Mindfulness,

Attention and perception.

So where they all kind of similar,

They're distinctly different.

Let's start the big one here.

What we were going to define in the last show,

Awareness.

For my take,

The only thing that's coming to me that I think I could maybe give of note here that I've heard recently is awareness is more like a receptive thing.

It's not something so much I do,

But it's something that I just kind of allow and open up to and then it happens.

There's an awareness,

An awareness kind of maybe a knowing.

I don't know.

How would you,

How would you guys define awareness?

So I think mine is actually a little bit more aggressive in the sense that mine feels more,

My definition feels more seeking.

So a little bit more momentum,

But just a little bit different than I think than your take on it.

Make a definition of something I have no words for.

That's,

That's,

That's lofty in terms,

Because in a way I could have said,

I kind of call it expanded perception.

So for me,

Awareness is very,

Very tied into perception.

But perception is also tied to the level of capacity we have of perceiving complex information.

So for me,

That goes with how we have worked with our emotional field,

Mental field and biofields,

The three lower fields that constitutes a physical form.

So if we are tied into the emotional awareness,

Then we will perceive from an emotional level and our response system to whatever comes our way will be based upon emotional response mechanisms that goes with the limbic system to be very kind of nitty gritty here.

And that's electrochemically driven.

And that will be interpreted according to our personal narrative of reality,

Our comfort zone,

The psychological dynamics and what we kind of feel we are able to cope with.

But if we have mental awareness,

Then we kind of say that science is or that can be abstract teaching systems or the awareness of energy in itself,

The awareness of atoms on their own level,

The awareness of how to,

To interact in that way with that type of energy.

So for me,

Awareness is tied into perception as well as how I can interact with these different levels of reality.

And that's why awareness for me cannot be defined because it's a tool like everything else.

And then we can say is awareness the same as consciousness?

And I would say absolutely not,

Because awareness is an ability to actually define things because you're perceiving things on their own energetic level,

Where whether it's emotional or it's mental or it's higher energy system wise,

Because their awareness expands into a whole holographic type of technology setting,

Which is controlled by consciousness units,

Which is something entirely else.

So for me,

Consciousness,

When people talk about consciousness as being similar to awareness,

Or similar to mind,

I will say no mind is what we have in the mental processes of the brain.

Awareness is our perception and interpretation and interaction with reality.

And consciousness then goes with our higher order abilities that very few people have activated yet.

The way I look at consciousness is that it's tied to capacities,

Right?

But awareness has really no limit.

I mean,

It can be,

You know,

It's I think I look at it as more boundless and limitless.

Now our access to it,

The access to it might be limited.

And I that I usually look more at consciousness,

Right?

But I don't know.

So what was the other term?

So that was brilliantly put with the mind is more obviously,

That's it makes sense,

Right?

Mind has to do more with the brain and things like this and mental processes.

Yeah.

But I think it's important when we're talking about these teaching systems,

Including the Buddhist teaching systems,

Is that you kind of have mind as the normal,

Low level mind of the human of an animal,

What have you,

The brain processes,

Right?

But then you have the higher states of more subtle type of energies that produce a subtle type of mind.

And I can't remember how they are put together.

But I think it's something about the teacher and the manas and you know,

These these expressions.

Well,

Yeah,

There's there.

They're different.

I know in in the Theravada system,

Not the Abhidhamma system,

But the consciousness,

They talk about six types of consciousness,

And it's just the five senses plus mind.

So for to make it start with like smell,

OK,

Because there's a physical organ,

The nose that can,

You know,

Receive smells,

Then there has to be the actual scent of a smell.

And then when that meets the organ,

The the contact when that contact happens,

Sense,

I mean,

Us with olfactory consciousness arises.

I would call I would call that awareness,

Because the difference here is because I don't call it a consciousness.

For me,

It's we're going to need to read.

Yeah,

We need to.

We are we're having this automated kind of everybody's breathing.

Nobody's really thinking about the operating.

So part of it is yes,

You're not thinking you're aware that you're exactly you become aware that you are serving,

You're observing aware,

You're after breathing,

You're working with breathing as a meditation object,

And then you go in really investigating the breathing and where it does and actually goes to some of the frontal lobe,

The lowest levels of the frontal lobe,

Which is interesting in itself.

And we talk about the esoteric teaching systems,

We go in actually the olfactory,

The inner smell is the one of the last the last senses,

The inner senses that get activated,

Because it goes with discernment,

What smells good,

What smells bad.

So the meditation is the awareness suddenly become aware of breathing.

So for me,

So we could say,

Well,

Is that the awareness of it perception of it?

Does that then lead to to smell consciousness?

And I'm not sure about that.

It's really going to say you're pulling in information when you breathe,

Right.

And I'm actually a little bit biased here,

Because I do have a little bit of a psychic sense of smell.

And the physical processes for smelling in the physical,

It's a little bit different than breathing in something and getting information from your olfactory system,

And then that producing a particular kind of smell.

So I think there's a nuance there.

Oh,

Yeah.

So now I just I'm talking about on the basic level.

Okay.

So basically,

Meaning there's a scent,

And there's a nose,

And then there's smelling happening,

Okay,

Not describing what sense it is,

Or if it's a rich,

Savory sense,

But just smell.

So we look at a vision right now,

There's a distinction between seeing and looking,

Looking is more of an active process.

Seeing is just there's visual content happening.

But how many times a day are we seeing but not knowing that we're really seeing?

So it's almost like bringing awareness to the fact that vision is happening,

Right?

There's sight present now,

Because there's a we're talking about external,

But it also applies internally,

Too.

There's the physical eye,

And then there's sense object.

And when the physical eye meets the sense object,

That contact gives rise to sight,

But it's not describing the forms and the colors and the light so much as just that bare,

That bare,

Basically,

It's knowing and what's being known.

So just sight,

Sight,

Sight,

You know,

So then everything else on that can possibly be a perception added on top of that.

So what am I seeing?

How am I seeing it?

What does it look like all these things?

So that's I think that's how they view or how it's viewed in the Theravada system,

Unless I'm probably distorting this too,

But the mind thing,

That's where a lot of it comes in because there's a mind,

Which some people would say,

Well,

Wait a second,

The mind isn't a physical organ.

I'm like,

Yeah,

I don't know how that works either,

Because I can't see,

Touch,

Taste the mind the way other things can be,

Right?

But there's seemingly this thing called mind,

And then there's a mind object,

What the mind is being aware of.

And when those two meet,

Then mind consciousness arises.

So in that system,

They consider a mind the sixth sense or whatnot.

And well,

Then the Mahayana goes into,

Well,

There's other two other types of consciousness.

One of the,

I forget what the seventh one,

But the next one is this alaya or the storehouse consciousness that stores this information or something where there's that goes into rebirth and I don't know enough about that to really talk about that.

I would I would say more kind of one to if we're using our own devices to interpret whatever's going on,

For instance,

For me,

One of the reasons why I'm not going completely berserk in the Buddhist ideas is because that's that's just the teaching system.

Exactly.

And people get lost in the teaching systems.

They when we talk about teachers and teaching systems,

People get lost and then they reside all that they have learned,

Just become little parrots.

And we say,

This is that type of consciousness of that this is this,

This or whatever.

And they forget completely to investigate on their own.

So I'd rather go in as I did when I began meditating.

Again,

This kind of knowing already what I needed to do again,

Unfortunately for me,

Some have it,

Some haven't got it.

But going in and quickly going to that understanding of why am I meditating,

For instance,

As a tool for awareness.

And for me,

It's about learning to become the observer of what I am involved in.

And that goes first and foremost,

The tangible level with the cup,

Learning to see the cup as the cup.

That was one of the first exercises I did,

Because I was always,

Oh,

This is a cup and then it's perceived as a cup.

And I stopped thinking more about it,

Because someone taught me it was a cup.

But then I stopped thinking about it as what people had taught me it to be and looked at it.

And then something interesting actually happened.

My because I focused my mind on it and not my eyes on it,

But my mind on it,

And try to merge my mind with the cup.

The cup stopped having the form and it became matter.

It became energy.

It became this when I can do that now,

I kind of feel the ceramics.

I feel the molecules of the ceramic has been burned.

I got the whole history of the cup.

It's only unraveling this whole kinetic processes information system,

This kind of and if I do the table or something or a tree,

I get completely submerged into it.

I breathe because then my mind begins to perceive the energy itself and interpret the energy itself.

Similar with smell.

Smell is not just about me smelling something.

It's actually about energy that my tool,

Which is a nose to work with waves of smell and particles of smell used to combine into my brain.

But if I use my mind instead,

Then I can actually smell some of the alien visitors.

I have some of them,

They smell disgusting,

Even though there's nothing in the room,

You have a smell that's so yuck because that's the mind that's smelling.

So that's the extra sensory system that kicks in.

Yeah,

There's the internal because the internal site,

Right?

People are seeing internally and in hallucinations or vision quest,

Things like this or meditation or however their abilities,

There's still the internal site.

So that's the internal part of this and it would make sense to smell too.

But this is the most important point here for me so far is that yes,

This has to be seen and known for oneself.

Teaching systems are okay,

But sometimes I do veer into that too much because at the end of the day,

It doesn't matter what anybody says.

That's what I like about the historical Buddha too is he said,

You have to see those for yourself.

You can't take my word for it.

You have to check it out for yourself.

And so that's what it really comes down to for me,

All of this.

And we mentioned that in the last show as well.

Alex,

You want to throw in something?

No,

I think you nailed it.

I think you guys nailed it.

It's really about how you're perceiving information,

How you're processing that information,

Asking why do I see the cup immediately?

Why am I not just trying to process the information to process the information correctly versus the bias?

And I think,

Yeah,

Thank you for saying that,

Because that actually leads me kind of say,

Well,

That's the part of the awakening awareness process.

Because there you learn to really understand what you actually are perceiving and what type of energy are you working with instead of trying to conceptualize it within the known concept of what we've been indoctrinated with and what teachers tell us it is.

But actually go in and say,

Okay,

I'm experiencing this.

And then it comes all down to,

Okay,

Do I need to label it?

Do I actually need to put words to it?

Do I need to have an explanation for it?

Or could I just perceive it and just be in it and just say,

This is what it is.

Do I even need to know how to do it?

So this comes now to non-polarity or maybe it is.

So on one hand,

We have the folks that are too scared to kind of do things on their own,

Without guidance.

And that they think they have to have a teacher with everything.

Then you have other people that are just maybe way far out in left field where it would almost benefit for them to have some kind of connection to reality and saying,

Maybe I do need to bounce this off some friends or some teachers.

So I guess maybe we would look at this dynamic of what to look for in teachers and friends.

If we're on one end of the spectrum or the other,

How to get away from teachers and friends sometimes because some people are so tied into their friends,

They don't really have the opportunity to break away sometimes to do kind of deep solo practice or solo retreats so where they can clear out all these external influences from teachers and friends.

While other people,

They may be their little lone wolf or a little bit more too much hermit energy where they would actually benefit from some spiritual friends and at least checking in for some other teachers from time to time.

So I think you need to start with frameworks and terminology.

And then as you evolve,

You're keeping some things,

You're throwing out other things.

And one thing,

Randy,

I love about your teachings is that you're constantly evolving your terminology and essentially you've invented and created your own set of terminology,

Your own language,

Your own frameworks.

And so you have to start somewhere,

But it's always evolving and you're keeping some things,

You're throwing out other things constantly and it's a process.

Just to catch up on or pick up on the,

I'm not inventing out of the blue.

And plus also we've,

The old languages that goes with Greek and ancient Egypt and all of these ancient languages,

They had different word constructions where they could combine different things and then make up a new word,

But it was within a system.

So it's not just me coming up with blah,

Blah,

Blah,

Or guru,

Guru,

Guru.

Actually,

Yeah,

That takes a real,

I mean,

The etymology of words,

Like where do they come from?

There's a book I read years ago called like the professor and the madman.

It was like this really high level professor,

But he was working with this guy who was institutionalized and they were doing a dictionary.

They were going through and writing dictionary definitions.

It was this pair that was from,

I think that was mainly responsible for this.

And could you imagine,

I mean,

How much of us that aren't in language arts really know the etymology,

Where these words came from?

And then,

Yeah,

It's a huge long process.

And then,

Yeah,

We do have some new words,

Right,

That are added all the time,

But they seem so debased these days.

I'm trying to think of some silly examples,

But you know,

Like,

But it's good to get back to when we talk about people that are completely unstructured and people that are almost worshippers,

Right?

Because what I discovered in my own journey,

And it always begins with how we perceive things ourselves,

And sometimes it can be made into a generic understanding,

But most of the time,

Everything is within the individual.

But what I kind of explored and experienced was that I had all of these things coming in and all these experiences.

And one of the things I discovered very early on was that I needed structure.

I needed some kind of,

Whether it was my own system or some other system,

I needed a discipline,

I needed a structure,

I needed some kind of,

Not ritual,

Because then it becomes ritualistic and rigid,

But kind of an everyday where I did some kind of practice that kept me in a framework.

So I would have this as a grounding,

Used it as a grounding.

For me,

It was exercise,

Actually,

Because I spaced so much out.

I had this full activation of my peripheral nervous system in the 2000s.

And the way I worked around that was walking a lot in nature.

It was also doing exercise.

So I grounded myself by doing that and not doing all of these,

Again,

Sorry,

Guys out there,

The ridiculous grounding exercises.

Before you need to do this,

Then you ground,

No,

Whenever I began working with energy,

I completely,

Like a rocket.

So I needed to go out and feel my body,

Exercise,

Eating healthy,

Going to the loo when I had to go to the loo,

Sleep when I needed to sleep,

Get the whole basic level in place first.

So that was my first natural instinct with this whole,

I was awakening,

So I needed to create a counter for that.

And that was exercise,

That was right food,

That was right sleep,

That was right amount of order,

Learning to nurture myself,

Take care of my body.

So that was the first when we talk about people that are sitting in meditation,

Spacing out,

Or the old gurus,

Or you have these Buddhist monks that are nothing but flesh and bone because they're not eating anything because it's so high leveled up.

I'm saying,

Yeah,

That's all good and fine,

You're depriving the body.

Okay,

That's what you choose to do.

But for me,

This is about when I'm inside this reality,

I need my physical form,

So thereby I need to take care of it.

For me,

That's the first step in the awakening process.

Learn to take care of your own body the right way so you have the energetic foundation for the higher levels of awareness.

And also,

Some people go the other end where they just turn their nutrition,

And I can be a little bit of a health nut sometimes,

Turn that into the whole spiritual path,

Right?

And they don't really do anything other than that and get too far into comfort zones and things like this.

So they don't take the risk that's needed.

And we've talked a little bit about how crises can help.

But then,

Yeah,

The other end of the polarity,

If there's no structure,

People fall apart,

Kind of can't relate to everyday people and stuff.

I know the Zen tradition,

From what I understand,

Is that a lot of the retreats,

It's very well structured.

So you have this container where they can do these kind of inward practices,

But they don't have to worry about arranging the external world because it's this time you meditate,

Or if you go on retreat,

You meditate at this time,

You eat at this time,

And you do your yogic chore at this time.

So a lot of the time we spent arranging our external conditions,

It's already set in place.

So we don't have to waste a lot of time,

Energy,

And effort and distraction on that.

So but I mean,

That's not really practical in everyday life,

Right?

That's why we come up with some routines and things that will help with this.

Again,

The point of not turning it into a ritual because some people,

When they do,

And they can't follow through in that ritual,

Then all hell breaks loose.

And then they become compulsive.

I know I've done the same thing too.

And then it throws off my whole day.

And then I don't I don't I feel off and things like this.

So like,

Where's the balance?

Yes,

But what that leads to sorry,

When we work with our body and begin to do the self nurture,

That's where the psychological processes also kick in,

Because then you begin to observe,

Okay,

Why am I so compulsive about this ritual?

Why is it so important for me to do it this way?

Why all of the whys and then begin to investigate the emotional field that is behind the bio field.

And to be honest,

I had already begun the emotional work before I began the physical work,

Interestingly enough.

So but I learned in early childhood that I kind of had to work with my body,

But it kept slipping away because the psychological processes were more in front.

So for me,

It was I went through the psychological process,

Including taking,

Becoming a professional psychotherapist and do all the things I need to do there.

But most of the work I've done myself already.

I just needed the group again,

Talking about peers,

I needed the group to mirror back to me where I was off and where I was spot on.

So I needed other people to mirror to me some of my own ideas.

So for me,

It's always been different as in,

I'm not using other people to tell me what to do.

I'm using other people to correct my own,

What we call ideas and how I perceive reality,

My frames of references.

So they are teaching,

They become my teachers,

Showing me and all of their different responses to what I'm doing,

Whether it's good or bad.

I think it's a balance of being dogmatic,

Right?

Being really dogmatic and being disciplined.

Right?

Yeah.

So yeah.

Which one of the Ds do you choose?

Somewhere in between.

Yeah.

I think there is such a close correlation between emotions and the body and also mental processes in the body,

Right?

And there's a feedback loop sometimes between,

Or a lot of times,

Most times I would say,

Between emotions and thoughts,

Right?

A thought will feed an emotion,

An emotion will feed a thought or a thought pattern.

And all the while,

There tends to be a bodily correlation,

Right?

Angry,

There's a lot of heat.

Or if there's anxiety,

Maybe it'll be holding in the stomach or some people have frozen shoulders and hip things all seem to be either frozen into place or noticeable when there's certain emotions and thought processes.

Yes.

And that was definitely a part of my awakening process too,

In this whole working with the body and working with the ailments of the body and working with the pains of the body.

And I'm also working as a healer.

So I began working with the healer modalities.

Okay.

What is similar to the cup?

Is my body actually telling it what it wants attention?

What is that attention about?

What does it mean?

Why do I have that physical pain there?

And then really begin to listening to my own body and saying,

Okay,

Let's learn to communicate,

Buddy.

Yes.

And it's it bouncing again between going too far off in the hypochondriac,

Where it's like every little thing,

You know,

Putting so much attention on every little thing where the other extreme is being lazy.

Oh,

It's okay.

It's just a minor pain.

It doesn't need to be looked at.

Who cares?

Kind of thing.

Right.

You see,

When I began that way,

I already done all the psychological work.

So for me,

I didn't fall into these traps.

Exactly.

It's because if you think,

You know exactly how much the psychological maturing this,

I want to stress that again,

Because many people that begin on the spiritual path or whatever,

Even if it's the Buddhist path or the enlightenment path or whatever path they're on,

They have not done the psychological work.

They have not scrutinized their own emotions,

Their childhood issues,

Their childhood traumas.

And they think they are so awakened,

But they're really just projecting a lot of defense mechanisms,

A lot of safety mechanisms,

A lot of things.

Coping.

Yeah,

To cope into the mix and create systems where they are very enlightened,

But you just need to poke them a little bit and then they become enormously defensive because,

Oh,

I want to protect the system.

Because at the end of the day,

I don't want to feel my own pain.

I don't want to feel my trauma.

I don't want to feel this.

And all the things we're not working with psychologically will eventually become an ailment of the body.

So that's the approach I had when I work with the body,

Not as in kind of,

Oh,

This is,

This is,

Let me just put it this way.

I work with the pains of the body because it shows me there's something going on in my emotional field that I'm not aware of.

But my body tells me you need to focus on this one.

So for me,

It's not just the body.

It's not because I'm afraid of illness.

It's a tool of transformation.

Very cool.

And so this brings to mind a point to circle back on is the terminology because these new terms,

They help break people out of these locked in systems and things.

They think they know what one thing is by a certain name that they don't have to investigate it any deeper.

But if it's called by another thing,

That's at least,

You know,

It's somewhat similar to that,

But could easily bring in more dynamics and people have to stop in their tracks and say,

Oh,

Wait a second,

Do you mean this and this and this?

They have to draw on their past reference points and sometimes nothing really sticks.

Or if they have to think about it each time,

Then it's,

It's,

It's,

It's kind of creates this mental crisis until they kind of adopt a new perception about whatever the,

The area of investigation is or whatever.

That's how I see how helpful new terminology can be,

Or at least reinventing terminology.

So but for as far as the psychological processes,

What do we recommend people,

Some tools that people work with just on the psychological level?

I know we talked about tarot,

But that's maybe a little bit of the deeper psychological.

I mean,

The obvious thing is if people haven't done therapy,

I know it's kind of a cliche and like,

You know,

Kind of an insult to some people to say,

Hey,

You should go do therapy,

Right?

This is what we say to people when we don't want to deal with them or,

You know,

But there,

I mean,

The brief stint I did,

I found very,

Very helpful.

But what I found in general was at a certain point,

It was like,

I was dragging up material again and again that I have been over and there was no new ground at a certain point,

But up to a certain point,

It was so helpful.

But after a certain point,

You know,

I normally tell my students to go buy 10 sessions with a psychotherapist.

And what's the purpose of it?

Because we can always,

We can always go deeper.

So it's not the psychotherapist that is there to,

To help us solve our issues.

But in the conversation,

Opening up within a safe space where you get the tools,

How to work with your psyche,

That's the quickest way to get the tools.

Of course,

You can study it,

You can do your education,

You can go on YouTube,

There are plenty of tools out there that you can get.

But the whole idea is how to work with your psyche,

Similar to how to do the correct type of exercise that's suitable for your body.

What type of nutrition do you have to have to,

To get the right nutrients for your body type?

And all of these investigations of the tools that we have available,

I would say they're these tools of the psyche,

The tools of the body,

The tools of mythology,

The tools of discipline,

The tools of how to work with energy on a broad scale,

A 10 times more awakening than any spiritual teaching system you can come up with.

So have a well equipped toolkit,

Right?

Yeah.

And what about anything that's specific as far as psychotherapy,

Like what brands,

What versions or modalities of it?

The main thing is though,

Just to talk to another human being,

You know,

It's different than just studying.

It depends on your trauma.

It depends on your trauma.

And that's another thing,

We're not going to go into huge trauma here,

But I would say if you're born into a human form,

There's some,

You're not going to escape without some kind of trauma.

I mean,

Some people have it really extreme,

But we all have some degree of trauma.

Again,

It's a spectrum of different types of physical,

Emotional,

Mental,

What type of trauma we're dealing with.

But everybody has kind of got childhood wounds,

Whether they know it or not,

Or whether they want to recognize it or not.

But normally I say,

Well,

Again,

Pick your healer,

Pick your,

Your therapist,

Pick whatever you're dealing with.

The one that people feel that they feel safe with,

That they kind of feel this here,

It resonates with me all depending on what type of energy system they have got.

If you talk about me,

For instance,

Have I used a healer?

Yes,

I've gone to two healers,

But I felt they were actually destroying my energy system more than actually helping me to repair it.

But then I used that experience.

Okay,

Why do I feel that they are kind of,

And then that led me to take my own,

I did my own healer,

Not did my own healer education,

But I went to an academy where I was taught how to heal.

And there I also know that's not the right way to do it.

So for me,

When the teachers I have are either reality itself,

Or the people show me what I need to get better at,

Because they show me where I got gaps and what I need to be more involved in,

Or they do something to me that is absolutely detrimental to my own awakening process.

But then I know that's not it.

And then I asked the question,

Then what is it?

And since I can't find it out there,

I need to find it in myself,

And then develop that tool,

That toolkit,

That way of doing it.

And that helps me and without getting into the trap,

Of course,

Of Oh,

Yeah,

I'm doing so fucking good.

I'm so I'm so brilliant,

Right?

Where we have that self investigation and that scrutinizing,

Very,

Very strong scrutinizing discipline,

Always turning every stone.

Yes,

That's really important.

Asking yourself,

Why?

Why am I feeling this way?

Why am I responding that way?

The why is very important.

Yeah.

Yeah,

The the purpose for doing all this,

Too.

You know,

Yeah,

Why is this important?

Yeah.

This kind of comes full circle to our the first one we did,

Too.

Yeah.

And it goes it reminded me of this axiom,

Basically,

Or this thing that pain can be a teacher.

So just all these kind of mistakes and mishaps and things that went wrong.

There's no really failure,

As long as we learn from them,

Right?

And not repeat the mistakes.

I think there has to be some some sort of intent and alchemy,

Though,

At during that process or like a nodal point there energetically,

Where you have to have that will and intent to really understand the lesson truthfully and then make the right choices,

Whatever those might be,

Or what you think are the right choices in that moment.

So yeah,

Discernment.

Yes.

And this this inquiry process,

It's very energizing,

Too.

Well,

It kind of takes a lot of energy,

But it also can provide a lot of energy to write looking into thing,

Asking the questions,

Asking the hard questions.

Sometimes it seems daunting to begin with.

But a lot of times I just ask questions,

Not necessarily wanting an answer or needing an answer,

Just asking the question.

There's a good esoteric saying that is when the student is ready,

The teacher shows up.

And that's,

You know,

The next part of that,

Too,

When the student is really ready,

The teacher disappears.

That's exactly right.

That's because that's that's kind of where people that are doing this,

They're saying,

Oh,

This is about me finding the this is synchronicity.

I'm drawn to that teacher.

I'm drawn to this or that,

Whatever.

So he or she is to be my new guru.

Right.

And guru means that Hindu means teacher or the new rabbi or the new whatever.

But the point of that saying is actually the true teacher is not an outer teacher.

It's the inner teacher.

And who is the true teacher?

That's actually the soul or the higher energy system,

As I say.

So when we say that the student is ready.

So for the awakening process within the esoteric teaching systems and the old spiritual teaching systems were to get yourself,

We see that with the master,

The apprentice or whatever we're dealing with.

It's all about getting the body,

The emotional field,

The mental field ready to receive the higher order knowledge that comes from within.

That's the true teacher.

Because when we talk about external teachers and external teaching systems,

They are often written down by people similar to as I have.

I'm trying to very focused on not doing that when I do my material,

Hence my work with clients and with people and students and I try to put in,

OK,

Make it generic.

So it's not just replication of what I have experienced,

But what others can use.

But the higher up in awareness you get,

The lesser you can rely on anybody else than yourself,

But not as a complete jerk or a complete whatever we call service to self-orientation.

That's what happened with the magicians of Atlantis.

But going that understanding that whatever I'm doing,

They just put it this way within the benevolent teaching system.

So benevolent awakening processes that kind of goes with progressive dynamics.

There's always this for the highest good of the many.

Whatever we do,

We do not do it for ourselves.

We do it for the highest good of the many.

That means with an exemplification of a process of enlightenment or a process of progression or a process of expanded awareness that will create an exemplification as the first of many.

So that means that that can lead to others to do the same thing.

So what I'm doing,

I'm doing so I kind of begin a path.

I begin as a way of existing that others can follow if they choose to do so.

But the point is that they will choose to do it in their own means and in their own rights and by their own devices and their own ways.

So they become the first of many for many other people.

So everybody begins as the first of many.

And as we go through that understanding and we understand the balance point,

This is principle two,

Where we balance what we experience,

What we develop with reality and with others and with self,

We also discover that that enlightenment journey then makes us humble,

Because whatever we do,

We cannot do it in a vacuum.

We are always connected to someone else or reality itself or our own soul for that matter.

So we're always in between.

And that's technically the esoteric understanding of the cross.

You're always nailed to some kind of cross that limits you,

That makes you concerned,

That makes you humble,

That constantly pushes you back.

That's what the crisis are about,

Pushes you back into know thy place,

Not as a kind of humble subservient thing,

But know your place energetically.

And the more you understand that energetic power you actually have when you do awaken and understand the balance of it as the first of many,

As an exemplification,

Always within a context of something where you always have to balance your energies in the right manner,

In the right form and in the right context and the right,

What we call it,

Unfolding their amount.

That was what I wanted to say.

You also learn the principle three,

Which is the law of participation,

Where you then understand what you actually can go in and change to go back to the first podcast,

What you can change,

Which limitations you should break down,

Which one you should transform,

Which one you shouldn't transform.

That's discernment.

And then you begin to have the reciprocity.

Yes,

Thank you.

That then mirrors back to from reality,

From all of these limitations mirror back to you where you actually allowed to go beyond the limitation and expand.

And that's where you really begin the awakening.

And that's where we get principle five.

That's the true inner teacher.

And that's where we have our own knowledge,

Because we have learned how to work with energy as an exemplification in a context of something where we are humble and understand our place in it,

Where we understand what to work with,

But not to work with,

What to break down,

What not to break down,

What to transform,

What not to transform.

And then learn the mirror effect of reality,

Not because,

Oh,

This is synergy,

Or this is synchronicity,

Or this is coming to me,

Because then I can do this and that,

Whatever.

But actually learn that whatever we are will be mirrored back.

So that means we're using it as a tool of self investigation.

We ask,

Why is this coming our way?

What does that show about me?

Is it distortion?

Is this something you need to clear out?

Can I transform this?

What's my purpose of being part of that energy that's being shown to me?

How can I grow by that?

And how can I grow reality by that?

And that's the true teacher.

Because then you know what to do with everything.

Well,

Beautiful.

Yeah.

Get into the conduct and the discernment that leads to the inner teacher.

And this wraps,

I mean,

This points back to again,

Again and again,

To the first conversation we had where we just kind of didn't go much into detail about the inner teacher,

Basically because once you get there,

It's the individual teacher.

So we thought we would talk about some of the external tools and lack thereof leading up to that moment where the internal teacher takes over and all these other trappings aren't needed or needed at all for the most part.

I think the level of responsibility too,

Right?

You alluded to that.

There's a level of responsibility when you get to a certain point and that's also a guidepost as well.

And how this all ties into our relationships with friends and teachers and how we're not separate from anything as well.

So all right.

Seems like a good wrapping up point.

And with that,

Thank you,

Alex and Randy for joining.