Everyday Mindfulness Show: Business Mindfulness With Marc Lesser

This episode features an interview with the author of "7 Practices Of A Mindful Leader" Marc Lesser - a trailblazer in the niche of mindfulness in business. They talk about the different ideas that benefit both the world of business and the individual.

Transcript

Welcome to the Everyday Mindfulness Show where we educate and inspire people to live fuller lives through mindful practices.

Let's get started with your host,

New York Times contributor,

Leadership advisor,

Sought after keynote speaker,

The author of the Amazon hot new release,

Everyday Mindfulness from chaos to calm in a crazy world,

She's smart,

Strong,

Sassy,

And a trendsetter in the field of mindful leadership.

Your host,

Holly Duckworth.

Welcome to the Everyday Mindfulness Show where we are elevating the conversation on what it means to be a mindful leader in a busy world today.

And I have a really special guest for you.

If you've heard my keynotes or you've heard me talk,

You know that I am passionate about the Search Inside Yourself Institute,

About mindfulness based emotional intelligence.

And I have been following this author and his book,

Seven Practices to Be a Mindful Leader since its inception.

Today we have on the show our guest,

Mark Lesser.

Mark,

Thanks for saying yes to me and to being on the show.

Thanks,

Holly.

Good to finally meet you.

Well,

You have been on the forefront of this movement before it was really on anyone's radar.

And you know,

Isn't there a famous quote out there?

You know,

First they mock you,

Then they make fun of you,

And then you win.

Like you're winning this game.

Not that it's a game,

But I'm so grateful that you've been trailblazing this road for so many.

Thanks.

Thanks.

You know,

It's funny.

I often in my talks and in my writing,

I dispel the myth that this is some new idea,

This idea of bringing mindfulness,

Awareness,

Meditation into the world of work.

And I refer back to one of my,

Even though it's many centuries ago,

I consider Dogen,

The founder of Zen in Japan,

13th century,

One of my root teachers.

And he wrote a whole treatise on how to integrate mindfulness practice in your work.

And it's interesting.

It was a treatise that I studied because it was written as instructions to the head cook.

And I happened to,

I was 28 years old when I found myself as the head cook in a Zen monastery kitchen somehow.

It seems almost kind of almost absurd to be saying that,

But I think that actually did happen.

I don't think I'm dreaming that.

I think it was part of my life,

Part of my growing up.

And just really briefly,

You know,

One of the things that Dogen instructed was that the head cook should always work with three minds,

A joyful mind,

A grandmother mind,

The mind of additional love and wise mind.

I think,

You know,

However you want to define wise,

You know,

I think of wise mind as seeing through the illusion of separateness maybe is one way to look at wise mind.

And these things might all seem rather,

You know,

Highfalutin and aspirational.

But I think in some way,

This remains,

I think,

A very apt and foundational instruction for what does it actually look like to be a mindful leader.

Well that tees up the question that I ask almost every guest,

Which is,

What is your definition of mindfulness?

Yeah.

You know,

I more and more think that mindfulness is really kind of humanness,

Right?

And mindfulness is facing into being curious about the human dilemma,

Right?

The question about asking the question,

What does it mean to be fully human?

And I think unpacking that a little bit,

It's like,

For me,

Mindfulness is about developing awareness and helping others,

Doing what one can to heal ourselves and to heal the world.

So this is,

Again,

There are many more scientific definitions of mindfulness,

But I think it's really about,

In some way,

It's interesting in the context of the work world,

I think of mindfulness as being aware of the fundamental tension between being human and heartfeltness and getting stuff done.

And that there is a natural,

Beautiful,

And sometimes not so beautiful tension between those two things.

And unfortunately,

I think,

Historically,

The getting stuff done has won out historically in the workplace and certainly in our government and in our financial laws and institutions.

It's all been about somehow leaning toward efficiency and effectiveness and not quite enough sense about that we're all human beings and how do we take care of people while we get stuff done as well.

So I'm curious,

As mindfulness has emerged in the Western consciousness,

How have you seen that definition change?

Even just as I've had the show over the last two years,

We went from,

I really don't know,

Woo woo,

To almost more solid answers on this word awareness.

What have you experienced as this has started to become more a talked about topic?

Yeah,

Yeah.

I think there's simultaneously been a way in which as the languaging and concepts have spread,

They tend to get watered down.

But maybe the good news is they get more and more accessible so that more and more people become aware.

Maybe more and more people are curious,

Less fearful of these somewhat new and unknown words that feel like they're coming from the East or coming from this scary thing that we call Buddhist practice or even the scary word meditation.

So there's more,

I think,

Acceptance and accessibility,

Which the shadow side of that is that it gets watered down.

But the other side of that is that I think there's also some real depth,

Some real interest in what does this really look like?

Could this actually support me as a leader to be more effective in what I do?

Could it help me to be both more effective and have greater well-being?

And again,

I think there's that tension point.

Again now I'm using slightly different language maybe between well-being and effectiveness,

Right?

Because effectiveness says work all the time and work hard.

Well-being says take care of yourself.

And mindfulness,

I think says do both fully,

Do both fully.

And that these are not,

It only looks like they are in competition with each other,

But that they can go together really,

Really,

Really well.

But it takes incredible presence and awareness and skills to actually maneuver that territory of having both those things go really well at the same time.

So you have had the opportunity to pioneer this work,

To have fun with it.

And so I like to ask sometimes questions that people don't ask.

So here's one I hope you haven't been asked before,

Which is what is like either the silliest or the most stern objection you got to mindfulness as a leadership and how did you overcome it?

Because I mean,

You've seen some stuff.

Yeah,

I mean,

It wasn't that long ago.

I remember being in a room with 16 CEOs and I was brought in to do an emotional intelligence training.

And I knew that I couldn't even use the word mindfulness or certainly not the word meditation.

And I remember turning to them and saying,

Let's do some attention training.

And they were like,

Okay,

They were like,

What's that?

And I said,

Let's bring your attention to your body,

Bring your attention to your breath,

Your feelings,

Your thoughts.

And I basically did a 15 minute guided meditation and I heard that.

I then had them practice some mindful listening exercise where they just listened without asking questions and interrupting.

And they were like totally moved by this exercise,

This practice of awareness.

And then I smiled and looked at them and said,

Congratulations,

You've all just done some meditation practice and mindful listening.

It's funny that before the end of my session,

They were asking me,

They wanted to know about Zen and it was like,

Oh,

This is pretty interesting.

I kind of felt like the experience,

I think there's something about,

We all have these gaps in what we experience and then our ideas of things.

I think still to this day,

I will go to organizations in which what I will hear very consistently is well,

I'm really interested.

I'm very passionate and interested in mindfulness meditation,

But the organization,

No,

They're way too conservative,

But then you go around and every person says the same thing.

And so it's super interesting are the gaps we have in our perception of ourselves and the perception that we have of others.

And what's particularly curious,

I would say this is a core mindfulness practice of a leader is becoming more and more aware of what is your perception of yourself and what is your perception of others and how real are those,

How aligned are those,

How I think of it as one of my mentors described it as the rule of influence of a leader,

Which is that everything that you do and everything that you don't do and everything that you say and everything that you don't say will have influence.

And I think this is true,

Particularly true when you're in a leadership role,

But it's true of us as human beings that we have tremendous influence and are influenced by others.

And so much of the practice I think is bringing awareness to that.

I so agree with you.

And I often hear that whole,

I can't meditate.

I've got the monkey mind thing.

My brain just goes too fast.

I can't do it.

I can't do it.

Like 90% of the time I can't do it.

I can't do it.

I'm curious if we're going to cultivate mindfulness in organizations,

In business,

Is meditation the only tool to be mindful or are there other tools that can help people to start down a mindfulness path?

Yeah.

I know that back when I was doing a lot of work at Google they really adopted mindfulness practice as their core wellbeing initiative.

And they really tried to get people to meditate during the workday.

And in some way,

I have to say,

I think the jury is still out whether meditating during the workday is a good idea or not.

I've never been very successful.

I have to say,

Even in companies that I was running of that,

I think it's hard.

And that I do think I have a bias that meditation is a core practice of mindfulness.

And that what you had said earlier,

The objection,

Well,

I have too much of a monkey mind.

My response to that is great.

Congratulations.

Join the human club.

We all have monkey minds and meditate with your monkey mind.

And it's okay.

It's okay.

Let your monkey mind meditate.

I often joke,

Give it a cookie and thank it for showing up and then return to your practice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think,

Yeah,

I think,

I think,

I think your monkey mind,

All of our monkey minds will settle down a bit by facing into,

You know,

The shortness of our lives and the fact that we know that we,

If we're lucky,

We will get old,

Sick and die.

That's if we're lucky.

And also looking at facing into our own discomfort,

Facing into some of the big problems that face our world.

So to me,

These are all great inspirations for practicing,

For practicing with this,

You know,

To get beyond whatever our objections are to,

Yeah,

To want to be a better person and to want to actually make a difference to help solve real problems,

Whether it's within our families,

Our companies or larger playing fields.

So I often get this concept,

I'm sure you hear it too,

About work-life balance.

What's your take on work-life balance?

Is that a thing?

Can we attain that?

Does mindfulness help us get that?

You know,

I once bought a URL,

Actually I am the proud owner of the URL of a four letter word that starts with F,

Balance.

And that I think that it gets,

You know,

When it generally I think is just a,

You know,

Kind of a euphemism for,

You know,

Work less and play more.

Which not a bad thing,

But I think,

You know,

It's a kind of a dualist,

It tends to be a dualistic concept,

But going back to,

I still am very,

You know,

Aspirational and also my own experience in my roles as a leader and in my roles as working with lots of leaders is that being aware of the tension between effectiveness and wellbeing and becoming really,

Really good at both.

And if that's balanced,

Well then great,

So be it.

But I think to me,

It's not about finding some middle ground.

It's like being really,

Really effective and leveraging one's communication skills,

You know,

Finding strategies that are,

You know,

That leverage whatever your particular advantages are in your work situation.

And at the same time,

Finding a way that,

You know,

To me,

Well,

A lot of wellbeing is around being aligned,

Like not fighting,

Not fighting,

Doing things that are going upstream against your own real values and what really matters to you.

I think that's,

To me,

I think that most burnout,

People think that burnout is about working too hard and of course it can be,

But I think a lot of burnout is people being so out of alignment with their own values,

Their own heart and being involved in activities that are harmful and looking away,

Looking away,

Pretending,

Putting one's head in the sand,

All the ways that we pretend that we're not really out of alignment.

We're not really pretty either doubtful or unhappy with what we're doing.

And it's hard,

You know,

I often use those example of it must be hard to wake up one morning and find that you are a Coca-Cola executive.

When for most of,

You know,

For a hundred years,

Nobody knew that it was,

You know,

Really an unhealthy drink that people thought,

Oh,

It's just this thing.

People I think,

You know,

And the same,

I think even with waking up and being an Exxon executive,

Again,

I think in the early days,

You know,

People were,

It was like this breakthroughs about power and fuel and,

You know,

And then somebody discovered,

You know,

That climate change was happening and then some group of people said,

This will be bad for our business.

Let's hide it.

Let's lie.

And that's gotta be really,

Really harmful to one's being to be,

You know,

Again,

I,

You know,

Maybe that's,

I might be being,

I could be accused of being,

You know,

Whamsy pamsy here.

Like,

Yeah,

Yeah.

I mean,

People,

People are real,

I've gotten really good at obfuscating the truth.

And maybe they sleep well at night,

But I suspect not.

I suspect that there's some real harm that's done when we're that out of alignment with the truth.

I'm smiling because the listeners know that every year I kind of meditate and mindfulness come to kind of a word that becomes my,

My,

My foundation for the year.

And my 2019 word was allowing,

Allowing the show to grow,

Allowing myself to grow my,

My thoughts,

Beliefs,

And actions to expand.

And my,

My 2020 word keeps coming back to this word alignment.

So I'm smiling that here,

Here's that word again.

Alignment.

And,

And how do we,

I like that.

I like that word.

And I think so it's almost like a,

Another possible definition of mindfulness and a mindful leader is paying attention to alignment and having the courage to notice lack of alignment.

And that you know,

I think yeah.

And that we're always,

I think moving in and out of a kind of,

You know,

Alignment and that it's,

You know,

Some sense of full,

Full alignment is aspirational,

Right?

I think I,

I,

It makes me think of one of my,

You know,

I,

I started and ran a greeting card company for 15 years.

So I'm I'm a professional quote collector and,

And one of my favorite quotes that I come back to a lot these days Wendell Berry who said be joyful though you've considered all the facts.

So I think,

I think,

I think that quote is actually a pretty darn good definition of mindfulness practice because considering all the facts is a really great practice.

Of course it's impossible.

It's impossible to consider all the facts and what are facts because there are,

There are facts,

There are truths.

But then so much of we humans,

We are constantly interpreting,

Interpreting the facts.

And yeah,

And,

And despite,

Despite the what it takes to consider all of the facts to,

To,

To keep being joyful,

To keep being positive,

Right in the midst of the gaps that exist in these facts and the interpretation of these facts,

Again,

At many different levels,

Right?

But I think this is this I think is a core practice of mindful leadership,

Right?

Is to,

Is to be committed to considering all the facts and,

And then making decisions and going with,

You know,

Going with the facts that you choose to go with.

So you wrote the book,

Seven Practices to be a Mindful Leader,

Lessons from Google and a Zen monastery kitchen.

What are one of,

What's one of those seven practices that you think we need to take into 2020 as we're creating our alignment and our path as mindful leaders?

Yeah.

So Holly,

I think I'd like to,

If you'll,

You know,

Humor me here,

I just want to name the seven practices because I think they're beautiful and poetic as well as practical.

And then I'll answer your question.

Please do.

Yes.

So the seven practices are love the work,

Do the work,

Don't be an expert,

Connect to your pain,

Connect to the pain of others,

Depend on others and keep making it simpler.

And I think in some way you could choose any one and they would lead to all the others,

Right?

They're,

They're broad,

They're all broad,

But they're also quite specific.

And I think to answer your question,

I would,

I'd probably tend to go with the first and the last.

Right.

That there's something about loving the work of alignment,

Loving the work of noticing the tension between love and performance is part of loving the work.

Love does love,

Love is not just a,

You know,

It's not just,

It's not just a follow your bliss kind of thing.

It's a love the work of,

Of noticing,

Of paying attention and,

And of finding a way to perform effectively and with great heart.

This is kind of loving,

Loving the work.

And in some way the last practice maybe the hardest or hardest for me,

Hardest for me to keep making it simpler.

Because you know,

There's I find I'm,

I'm so curious about,

You know the human mind and the human heart,

And I'm so curious about how people think and,

And,

And what amazing storytellers we are.

And in some way the practice of keep making it simpler means sometimes to make really choices to decide what not to be paying attention to,

What not to be pursuing and to be folk,

To be more focused on.

I think the great question of keep making it simpler is what's most important?

What's really most important right now?

And again,

It's interesting because there's like,

What's most important in my work life and what's most important in my practice life and how are those integrated?

How can I integrate this?

What if those are not two separate worlds,

But one,

One world?

So what's on tap for you for 2020?

Alignment,

Alignment,

Alignment is on tap for me.

You're your own alignment.

Okay.

Well,

I'm,

I'm,

You know,

I'm thinking of honing what 2020 I think for me is going to be focusing more on working with social entrepreneurs.

Which is interesting.

We're seeing another change.

We're seeing,

You know,

Social entrepreneur used to mean someone who was leading a nonprofit or for profit social business.

But I noticed like my colleagues at Google or Genentech or SAP,

Many of those people identify as social entrepreneurs.

So it's someone who I want to work with people who want to change the world,

Whether they're,

Whether they're running an organization or working inside of a big company.

And I,

I want to help people do the inner work and the outer work.

I'm looking forward to you know,

Talking about you know,

Mindfulness meditation as well as creating mindful finance,

Finance and accounting,

Mindful investing mindful operations all those to combine,

To combine the inner and outer work of again,

This topic of getting stuff done,

Solving real problems and being heart,

Heart and heartfelt this.

Well,

Mark,

I'm so grateful for our chat together.

I know we could talk for another three years on this topic and 25 minutes just doesn't even seem like enough.

But I want the listeners to know that before we went on the show,

I asked you a question and I think it really is important.

And I said,

Hey,

Mark,

You know,

What do you want to want to promote?

Or what do you what do you want to want to sell on the show?

Because we always like to make sure that you the listeners know Mark is available as a speaker,

A workshop facilitator,

A leader and an executive coach.

And we're going to put his his links on the show notes.

But you know,

His answer to me wasn't that his answer to me was,

I wish we would spend more time promoting peace.

So as you begin your 2020 and you're looking at your own mindful life and the way that you lead,

I want to invite you to think about how can you be peace and bring more peace and certainly,

You know,

Source the show source Mark's work.

And the more we get to cultivate that I think we actually are the awareness of mindfulness.

Mark,

Before I let you go any last minute tips or advice for the team?

Well,

I will I will take a moment actually to promote myself which is that the tell people that you can find me at Mark lesser ma RC le SS er.

Net.

And my final Oh,

Maybe I'm just a short a few short lines from one of my favorite David White poems where he says,

You must learn one thing,

The world was made to be free in you must learn one thing the world was made to be free.

So thank you very much,

Holly.

Thank you.

Enjoy your day.

Thank you for joining us for today's show.

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